A briefe replie of Thomas Udall, Gent. to a short memorandum, or shew of answere against his booke intituled: A briefe view of the weake grounds of poperie: by B.C. student in diuinitie.

A briefe Replie of Tho∣mas Ʋdall Gentle. to a short Memorandum, or shew of answere, against his Booke, Intituled, A briefe view of the VVeake Grounds of Popery, By B. C. student in Diuinitie, according to the order proposed in the Preface.

B. C. Sect. 1.

BEeing thus dispatched of Master Rogers: it remaineth to speake a word or two of another Booke, which was not long since sent me, and is Intituled. A briefe viewe of the weake grounds of Popery, compiled to∣gether by one Master Ʋdall, a lay Gen∣tleman of diuers English Controuertists, as himselfe seemeth to insinuate, and in

all probabilitie cannot otherwise bee thought, and so no maruaile, if the waters bee not sound, when they were drawen from corrupt fountaines, and who can euer looke for a well shapen garment, made after a crooked measure. Grapes are not gathered of thornes, nor figges of thistles, as our Sauiour saith: yet doth it so much please Master Ʋdall, that hee doth seeme to take great heart of grace, for that hee was not answered with that expedition he expected. The more haste hee ma∣keth, the more he vrgeth his owne dis∣grace, if malice haue set him a worke: but if it be true zeale of truth, and sauing his soule as he pretendeth, I despaire not of his conuersion: wherefore either for the spirituall profit of himselfe, or the commoditie of other, or common good of both, I will now present him with a short sample of such foule flawes as bee in his booke, minding afterward with more full hand to prosecute that subiect.

T. V.

IT séemes, at the first entrance of Master B. C. Memorandū, That he would wil∣lingly extenuate the matter of my Booke,

by tearming me A lay Gentleman: insinu∣ating to his Popish dependants, That they should not so much weigh, what is spoken, as who speakes: though all men of iudgement, weigh rather the speech, then the speaker. And so (I hope) will not inquire so much what I am, as what I say. The generall scope and drift of my whole booke may bee thus deduced.

• That Religion which hath weake, and vncertaine grounds, cannot bee the true Religion:
• But Popish Religion hath weake and vncertaine grounds:
• Ergo, Popish Religion cannot bee the true Religion.

The Maior is euident, and the Minor is prooued throughout my whole booke, in the Refutation of euery particular grounde of Popery. Against my Booke Master B. C. reasoneth thus.

• That which is drawen from English Controuertists, cannot be sound:
• But Master Vdalles Booke is drawen from English Controuertists:
• Ergo, Master Vdalles Booke cannot be sound.

How Master. B. C. hath quit himselfe

for the proofe either of his Maior, or Minor, I leaue to the censure of the learned. But I pray you let me aske you this question: May not truth bee drawen from English Controuertists? What will then become of Hardings workes, the Rhemes Testa∣ment, Cardinall Allens, Parsons, Ray∣nolds, Bristowes, and your owne, with many others: Surely if the feathers, you haue borrowed from Harding, Stapleton, and others, were pluckt from you; your whole booke would be as naked, as Esopes Crow. If I haue takē great heart of grace, for that I was not answered with that ex∣pedition I expected: I may doe so still, for any answere I haue yet made you: neither doe I see any cause now to discou∣rage me, since that after almost two yéeres (méeting with one so sharpe sighted, as your selfe) I find nothing answered to any pur∣pose. For I truely protest, I sée not, (nei∣ther I thinke doe you) What spirituall profite to my selfe, or what commoditie to other; or what common good to both; the short sample of such foule flawes, as you present me with, should procure either to other, or to me. But you mind hereafter (you say) to prosecute that

subiect, with a more full hand: you had neede; for this is very barren, and emptie. And if your promises hereafter, prooue no better, then these supposed flawes, now pre∣sented; you may well chaunge your opini∣on: And say, you dispaire altogether of my conuersion.

B. C. Sect. 2.

IN his Preface to his deerest Cousins, (whom with poyson lurking vnder su∣gred words he laboureth to inuenome) hee accuseth vs of open blasphemie a∣gainst the sacred Scriptures: which I thinke will rather proue a grosse vntruth on his part, and where is this blasphemie contained? in a booke as he telleth vs of Cardinall Cusanus, which is intituled, De authoritate, &c, Of the authoritie of the Church, and Councels, aboue and against the Scriptures. But I beseech him, did he euer see this booke, which so confidently hee alleageth? if he hath, then should he haue done well to haue noted where, that the Reader also might haue found it, seeing it is not amongst the three Tomes of his workes, set out at Basill, neither mentio∣ned by Trithemius, who hath diligently

gathered together, the workes of learned writers: nor yet by Posseuinus who hath lately entreated of the same matter. If he hath not: what indiscretion is it, in so weightie a point, to relie vpon the credit of others. Verily, wold such as read Pro∣testants bookes, but vouchsafe sometime to examine the quotations, it were not possible that they could bee so pitti∣fully deceiued, as they daily be: Cusanus is abused, he neuer wrot any such booke. This vntruth it may bee borrowed from Master Iewell, who doth not onely cite that booke, but also (as though hee had knowen it very well) quote very many places out of the same, as hee is charged by Doctor Harding: which ar∣gueth that out of true bookes hee could haue proued any thing for himselfe, that out of one, which was neuer written, found so many testimonies to serue his turne. I would not wish Master Vdall, to imploy his time so badly, as with the touch of his credite, and perill of his owne soule, to retale the vntruths of such grosse Merchants.

T. V.

THat, which you call Poyson, is rather an Antidote against the infection of such poysoned spirits, as yours: But to the matter, it is true, that in the Preface of my booke I haue charged the Papists iust∣ly with blasphemie. The force of my rea∣son there may be thus deduced.

• Those, which haue published blasphe∣mies in print against the sacred Scriptures, haue vttered open blasphemie:
• But the Papists haue published blasphe∣mies in print against the sacred Scriptures:
• Ergo, the Papists haue vttered open blasphemie.

The Maior is euident, and the Minor is prooued by Cardinall Cusanus, Syluester Prierias, Boniface, the Arch-bishop of Mentz, Hosius, Eckius, and others. A∣gainst which Master B. C. reasoneth thus.

• If Cardinall Cusanus neuer writ any such booke, then there is no such blasphe∣mie:
• But Cardinall Cusanus neuer writ any such booke:
• Ergo, there is no such blasphemie.

I denie the consequence of the propositi∣on,

though Master B. C. would insinuate, by the question, and answere, That there had béene no other proofe, to iustifie my ac∣cusation, but that of the Cardinals, saying: But where is this blasphemie conteined? In a Booke (as he telleth vs) of Cardinall Cusanus, which is intituled, De Authori∣tate, &c. Of the Authoritie, &c. What? In that booke onely? And not also in diuers other places, and authors? Why are all those omitted? Why is this one singled out of the heard? Surely, because this seemed likely to admit some cauill; they were out of daunger. But is it a iust difference; whe∣ther the blasphemie be in the Title of the Booke, or in the booke it selfe? For albeit, it were not in the title of the booke (as both Bishop Iewell, and Doctor Downam af∣firme it is) yet it is in the booke of his Epi∣stles, as I haue shewed in the Preface: And to conuince euidently this blasphemie of the Cardinals I will shew once againe. The Blasphemie mainteined is, that they were to receiue the Communion in both kindes, according to the Scriptures: a∣gainst which the Cardinall, opposeth him∣selfe, in diuers places of his Epistles, and for the iustifying of his assertion, he vrgeth

these words, as I haue set them downe in the Preface. It is no maruaile (saith he) though the practise of the Church, ex∣pound the Scriptures, at one time one way, and at another time another way; For the vnderstanding or sense of the Scriptures runneth with the practise, and that sense agreeing with the practise is the quickning spirit; And a litle after he concludes, And therefore the Scriptures follow the Church, but contrariwise the Church followeth not the Scriptures. Now that, which precedes in authoritie, is aboue that which followes: and so the Church, by their diuinity, is auouched to bee aboue the Scriptures. And if the Church follow not the Scriptures, it is euident (if God, and his word be both one) That he, that is not with the Scripture is against it. And so the matter of the Epistle is all one with that title of the authoritie of the Church and Councel, aboue and against the Scriptures, though the Epistle it selfe be not so intituled.

And that you may know this opinion or blasphemie, is not peculiar to the Cardi∣nall, or to one Papist onely: Eckius in his Enchiridion of the authoritie of the

Church, Answ. the third, hath set down, that this position: The Scripture is greater then the authoritie of the Church is to bee reputed amongst hereticall assertions, and that the contrary proposition is Catholique. And this blasphemie of theirs is so generall, that you shall find this sentence often inser∣ted in the Common Law. The Church is aboue the Scriptures.

The other place of the Cardinals there noted, is this: This is the iudgement, (saith he) of all them that thinke rightly; that they found the authoritie, and vnder∣standing of the Scriptures in the allow∣ance of the Church; and not contrariwise lay the foundation of the Church in the authoritie of the Scriptures. Now if this bee sound diuinitie; then may your proud Clergie, assume vnto themselues to bee Lords of the Scriptures. For how directly so euer the Scriptures be against them (as in this instance of the communion to be had in both kinds, it is most directly) they may giue it what sense they list: yea expound it to day, after one fashion; and to morrow af∣ter another, as shall please the Pope, and his Clergie: which can no way agree with the spirit of God; who is alwayes one and

the same. And if this conuince not the Car∣dinals blasphemie: See the 3. Epistle of the same booke pag. 838. where hee saith, When the Church chaungeth her iudge∣ment, God also chaungeth his.

But admit I had failed in this proofe: yet had the other testimonies bene sufficient, to approoue the truth of my accusation: if these and such like may iustly be tearmed blasphemiesa That indulgences are war∣ranted vnto vs, not by the authoritie of the Scriptures, but by the authoritie of the Church, and Pope of Rome; which is greater.b That they rather desire the ancient institution of Christian Religion from the Pope, then from the holy Scrip∣ture.c That the Scripture is not au∣thenticall, but by the authoritie of the Church:d That the Pope may change the holy Gospell, &c.e That the Scrip∣ture, without the authority of the church, is of no better worth then Esopes Fables. And because I will bee as charitable to Master B. C. and as full of good wishes though I haue no hope of his conuersion) as he is to me: I could wish, that he would not imploy his time so badly, as to colour or iustifie such open, and palpable blasphemie.

And surely, would such as read both Popish, and Protestants bookes, Trie the spirits, whether they be of God or no; would not the Popish Priests prohibite the reading of our bookes: would the Papists therin hold any indifferencie; it were not possible, that they could be so sedused with Popery.

B. C. Sect. 3.

IN his fourth page, thus he writeth. Yea Arias Montanus a chiefe Papist, in his Hebrew Bible, writeth in the forefront and principall leafe of the booke. There are addded (saith he) in this edition, the bookes written in Greeke, which the Ca∣tholike Church following the Canon of the Hebrews reckneth amongst the Apo∣crypha. The true sense of Arias Montanus words is corrupted, either by Master Vdall, or some other, from whom he had them, by foy∣sting in diuers of their owne. That learned man in the edition of the Hebrew Bible, with the Latin interlineall interpretation, in the Title page, saith. There are adioyned to this e∣dition, the bookes written in Greeke, which are called Apocrypha. Hee saith not, they bee Apocrypha: but that they are so

called by some, that is the Iewes, who exclude them from their Hebrew Canon, which he had there set foorth. That other addition, viz. which the Catholike Church following the Canon of the Hebrewes reckoneth amongst the (Apocrypha) vpon which the force of his charge dependeth, are not in Arias Montanus: where Master Vdall had them, himselfe best knoweth.

T. V.

IT is true, that in the fourth page I haue shewed, how the Papists dissent from the Fathers both auncient and moderne. The reason there may thus be deduced.

• That Church, which dissents from the Fathers, both antient, and moderne; tou∣ching the Canonicall, and Apocryphall Scriptures, cannot truely boast of their a∣greement with them in all points:
• But the Popish Church dissents from the Fathers, both ancient, and moderne, touching the Canonicall, and Apocryphall Scriptures:
• Ergo, the Popish Church cannot truely boast of their agreement with them in all points.

The Maior is plaine in it selfe; and the

Minor is proued by these testimonies,(a) S. Hierom(b) Rufinus,(c) Cyrill of Hierusa∣lem,(d) Athanasius,(e) Nazianzen,(f) E∣piphanius,(g) Cyprian,(h) Damascenus,(i) Hugo de Sanct. victor.(k) Radulphus(l) Lyra,(m) Hugo Cardinalis. And(n) Arias Montanus, Against which Ma∣ster B. C. reasoneth thus.

• If Arius Montanus be corrupted by M. Vdall, or some other, from whom hee had them, by foysting in words of their owne, vpon which the force of the charge depen∣deth, then is Master Vdall, or some other, from whence he had them, proued to be cor∣rupters, and those Scriptures, which wee defend to be Canonicall, are not conuinced to be Apocryphall.
• But the Antecedent is true.
• Ergo, the Consequent.

I denie the consequence of the propositi∣on, because if this place had bene misalleaged; yet had that, which I intended, bene suffici∣ently

conuinced by the testimonies of the o∣ther fathers and writers, which I alleaged. And is not this a substantiall argument, for such a disputant as Master B. C. would bee presumed to bee, by his many, and seuerall Coniurings, Adiurings, and exorcismes of M. Bell to disputation? But, if heerein the vntruth, and corruption be iustly retur∣ned vpon himselfe; with what countenance will hee looke vpon his followers, when it may happily come to their knowledge, That he, that is the Counter challenger, & common taxer of others, shall be found guil∣tie of that crime, which he obiects to others. Would God that lay Papists would make tryall of their teachers sinceritie, whereof they brag so much, by accusing others. But to cleare my selfe from this corruption; let the Reader see the same Hebrewe Bible which is noted by Master B. C. 1584. and he shall find the words as I haue alleaged them, truely deliuered; which for his better satisfaction, I will set downe in Latin, least hee except against the translation. The words be these, Accesserunt, & huic aeditioni, libri Graecè Scripti, quos Ecclesia orthodoxa, Hebraeorum Canonem secuta, inter Apocry∣phos recenset. There are added (saith hee)

to this edition the bookes written in Greeke, which the Catholike Church, following the Canon of the Hebrewes, receiueth amongst the Apocrypha. Thus you see I haue proued that, whereon you confesse the force of my charge depen∣deth; and therefore, by your owne confessi∣on those Scriptures, which the Protestants reiect, are approued to be Apocrypha. But for that I am a lay Gentleman, and Master B. C. A student in Diuinitie, I may not v∣surpe that speech of his, and tell him; That if he looked into the originals, hee could not retaile the vntrueth of such grosse Merchants.

B. C. Sect. 4.

IN the fift page, he writeth thus. The Coun∣cell of Laodicea, assured by a generall Councell of Trullo, did set downe the same Canon of the Scriptures, which both the old Church had, & our Church holdeth: and commaundeth. Ne a∣liqui, &c. That none besides bee read, and receiued into authoritie. How many things of note, are comprised in these fewe lines against Master Vdall. First he seemeth great∣ly to reuerence these two Councels, which yet

is but a coppy of his countenance, to delude the ignorant Reader, for I doe not thinke that hee will stand either to the one or other, though con∣tent he is, to presse vs with their authoritie. For example, the Councell of Laodicea, comman∣deth Crisme to bee receiued after Baptisme: and that the fast of lent be obserued: neither of which, I am sure, pleaseth Master Vdall. Likewise the Councell of Constantinople holden in Trullo alloweth of images, and their veneration, when it calleth them, imagines venerabiles, venerable images, which I make no doubt, nothing pleaseth his tast. The same Councell forbiddeth Bishops, Priests, Deacons, and Subdeacons, to marry wiues after taking of Orders: and commaundeth Bishops not to dwell with their wiues, which they married be∣fore they entred into the higher Orders of the Clergy: which seueritie of theirs must vtterly dislike him, as being in his opinion, contrary to the word of God.

T. V.

IT is true that in the fift page, I haue al∣leaged the Councell of Laodicea allow∣ed by a generall Councell of Constantino∣ple in Trullo, for the proofe of that Canon of the Scriptures, which is in question

betweene the Papists and vs; The force of my reason there, may be thus deduced.

• The Canon of the Scriptures, which is set downe by a particular Councell, allowed by a generall Councell, is to be held as good and sufficient:
• But the Canon of the Scriptures ap∣prooued by the Church of England, is set downe by a particular Councell, allowed by a generall Councell:
• Ergo, the Canon of the Scriptures ap∣proued by the Church of England, is to bee held as good and sufficient.

The Maior is prooued by all those Pa∣pists, that preferre the Councell before the Pope; for till late dayes there was no con∣trouersie hereof.

The Minor is proued by the words of the Councell set downe by me, as M. B.C. re∣lates them: Wherin many things of note (as he saith) are comprised against mee, which notes of his I will handle particu∣larly.

The force of his reason in this Section, lies thus.

• If the Councell of Laodicea, and the ge∣nerall Councell of Constantinople in Trullo doe hold diuers thinges as Chrysme,

• and that Priestes should not marry after ordination, &c. which Master Vdal dislikes: then is it but a coppie of Master Vdals countenance to delude the ignorant, to séeme to reuerence those Councels by pressing vs with their authoritie.
• But the antecedent is true.
• Ergo, the consequent.

If I would trifle as Master B. C. doth, I could tell him, that it followeth in the same 6. Canon, that if those, which will he of the Clergie, will marry before ordinati∣on they may. And in the 13. Canon, that they may not bee separated from their wiues, nor depriued of the vse of them: and that those, which vnder pretext of pietie, expell their wiues, are to be excommunica∣ted: all which I am sure pleaseth not Ma∣ster B. C. chaste eares. But could any man, that professeth himselfe a student in Diuinitie, reason thus impertinently; if hee were not perswaded, that any thing would passe for currant amongst the seduced Papists: and can any man be ignorant, that hath read my booke; that the whole scope, and drift thereof, tends to shew the weake∣nesse of the Grounds of Poperie: of which, that of Councels, is helde a chiefe one

with them. For howsoeuer the controuersie amongst themselues; Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell, or the Councell aboue the Pope: Or whether Councels should be confirmed by the Pope, or not confirmed; be not yet determined: yet we professe to reuerence Councels no farther, then their doctrine is consonant, and agrée∣able to the Scriptures: according to the opinion of that famous clarke Saint Austin; who writing against Maximinus long be∣fore this new Popery was hatched, saith thus: But neither ought I to produce the Councell of Nice, nor you the Councell of Ariminum for a preiudice; for neither am I tyed to the authoritie of this, nor you to the authoritie of that; but let matter with matter, cause with cause, rea∣son with reason; contend by the autho∣ritie of the Scriptures, not proper to any, but indifferent witnesses to both partes. You sée heare, and may in diuers other pla∣ces of my booke, what opinion S. Austin had of Councels, that would not haue his aduersary tied, to the authoritie of the great Councell of Nice; comparable to which no Councell was euer yet, since the Apostles. But if I had failed in this proofe, yet was

the matter there intended sufficiently proued by other testimonies; which you acknow∣ledge to bee your owne grounds. Neither was it vrged to delude the ignorant, as you either ignorantly or maliciously affirme but rather to shew, how you varie both from Fathers and Councels, when they make against you.

B. C. Sect. 5.

SEcondly this Councell of Constantino∣ple in Trullo is of no authoritie, as in which the Pope neither by himselfe, nor by his Legates, was present, and Pope Sergius, who then liued, did disanull that erraticall Synode, as venerable Bede wri∣teth: with what conscience then can Ma∣ster Vdall call that a generall Councell, and vrge the authoritie therof as authen∣ticall: when as not onely we, but also the Protestants vtterly reiect it, albeit in this point, we for our parts see no cause to re∣fuse it. Thirdly true it is not, that the Councell of Laodicea setteth downe the same Canon of the Scriptures, which the Church of England alloweth: for the Apo∣calypse or Reuelation of Saint Iohn is o∣mitted. Fourthly, this Councell forbid∣deth

the reading of others, not there ex∣pressed: yet the Church of England rea∣deth the histories of Iudith, and Tobie in their publike assemblies: which Master Vdall I suppose will hardly shew, how it agreeth with the decree of that Councel. Fiftly he hath corrupted be Councell by adding somewhat of his owne: for these words: and receiued into authoritie bee not there found. Would any euer haue thought, that so many things, could haue bene noted against him, in so small a sen∣tence? If Master Ʋdall hath viewed the o∣riginall; hardly can he bee excused from malice: if hee hath not, let him beshrew their fingers, vpon whose credite, hee committed them to writing.

T. V.

IN this fift Section, Master B. C. hath shewed great store of smal knowledge; by telling how many things of note, Are com∣prised in these few lines against me: For if these notes, conuince him of much weak∣nesse to handle controuersies; then may his Popish dependants wish: that he had answe∣red with silence, as Doctor Norris did before him: least his too much haste further his

owne disgrace: if I may returne his owne words. But let vs examine the particulars.

In the first note, the reason lies thus.

• All Councels, that are of authoritie, must haue the Pope, or his Legates pre∣sent:
• But this Councell had neither the Pope nor his Legates present:
• Ergo, this Councell is of no authoritie.

I denie the Maior, for I hope Master B. C. being so great a disputant, will not still begge the question. And we may well hold this position, A noueltie of Poperie: vnlesse Master B. C. can shew vs (which neuer any yet did) some testimonies of the ancient Fathers, that are not counterfeit; that euer wrote or taught this doctrine. Besides master B. C. cannot be ignorant: That the auncient and first Councels, were neither called by the Pope: nor hee, either by himselfe, or his Legates, President therein. And in the second generall Coun∣cell

holden at Constantinople, Bellarmine confesseth, that the Pope was neither there in person, nor by his Legates; and also hee saith, that Petrus de Aliaco, and Cusanus, both Cardinals, Gerson, Almain, Antoni∣nus, Tostatus, and many others held, That the Councell is aboue the Pope. And the same hath aso beene decreed in the thrée ge∣nerall Councels of Pisa, Constance, and Basill; and as yet the contrary was neuer decreed: as Doctor Whittaker sheweth in the fift question of his Tract of Councels, and as Bellarmine confesseth, the question remaineth amongst the Catholiques to this day. With what Schollership or consci∣ence then can Master B. C. conclude the Councell to be of no authoritie, because nei∣ther the Pope, nor his Legates were pre∣sent. And if Master B. C. be so well read in controuersies, as it should seeme: then can he not chuse but speake against his owne knowledge: for he cannot be ignorant, that many Popes haue cited these Canons, since it appeares euen by our aduersaries; that these Canons were in times past held for the Canons of the sixt Synode: And Grati∣ane often cites thē in his decrees, & alwayes cals them Canons of the sixt Synode. And

in Gratian dist. 16. cap. 6. Adrian the Pope saith, Sextam Synodum sanctam cum omnibus suis Canonibus recipio, I receiue the sixt holy Synode with all the Ca∣nons thereof. And though Canus say, That this Councell made no Canons, yet the same is openly refuted in Gratian. And Innocent in his Tract of the age, and qua∣litie of those to be ordered, citeth one of these Canons, & cals it a Canon of the 6. Synode. And the same also Gratian citeth dist. 3 2. cap. Si quis. And Pope Adrian the first in the Epistle to Tarasius, which is extant in the second action of the seuenth Synode o∣penly confirmes it. And though Bellar∣mine answere, that Adrian onely reciteth the sentence of Tarasius, and refels it not, because it was profitable to the question then handled; yet doth Pope Adrian vse these words, In sextae Sinodi Diuine, & le∣galiter praedicatis Canonibus. In the Ca∣nons of the sixt Synode, holily and lawfully pub∣lished. And the Popes Legates demanded of the sacred Synode, whether they re∣ceiued the letters of the most holy Pope or no? The sacred Synode answered, we folow, receiue & approue them. And what other thing is this but to confirme the Ca∣nons

of the sixt Synode? Neither is it any strange matter for one Pope and a Coun∣cell to condemne the decrees of another Pope and Councell; As I haue shewed in my booke, pag. 58. 59. Of Pope Stephan and Pope Iohn.

And thus much for the first note.

The reason of his second note lies thus.

• If Venerable Bede saith, that the Pope did disanull that erraticall Synode: then cannot Master Vdall with conscience call it a generall Councell, and vrge the autho∣ritie thereof as authenticall:
• But the antecedent is true:
• Ergo, the consequent.

I denie the consequence, and demaund of Master B. C. why I may not with as good a conscience as Bellarmine, and diuers Popes and Papists before alleaged, call it a generall Councell: for Bellarmine recko∣neth this Councell amongst those generall Councels, which are partly approued, part∣ly reproued.

And Caranza that gathered the summe of the Councels, sheweth immediatly before the Canons, that nine Canons, of the same Synode were reiected as bastards, and that these 102. Canons were not as yet for∣saken

and cast off. And though many hold that this Councell made no Canons, yet a Councell made them with credit of a gene∣rall Councell. And the next generall Councell did confirme them. Conc. Nic. 2. cap. 1. And Caranza sheweth that the Ca∣nons were made in supplie of the other two Councels that wanted, and therefore it was not numbred as the sixt, but called Quini Sexta; because it supplied that which was wanting to the fift and sixt. And yet hee cals it a generall Councell. Now could a∣ny man of M. B. C. learning vpon Bedes authoritie, vrge such consequents against all these proofes before alleaged.

And for my vrging it as Authent'call, I haue shewed before how farre we receiue the authority of generall Councels; and the reason why I vrged it. But I pray you master B.C. is this a Maxime in your Di∣uinitie: That whatsoeuer any ancient Fa∣ther hath said, is to be beleeued? Surely, Saint Austin was of another mind. For he challengeth to himselfe a libertie to iudge, In quorumlibet hominum scriptis, In the writings of all men whatsoeuer, And addeth this reason, because I doe consent with∣out any stay to the Canonicall Scrip∣tures

onely, The rest must be read as hee teacheth, Non cum credendi necessitate, sed cum iudicandi libertate, Not with a ne∣cessitie to beleeue them, but with a libertie to iudge them. And must bee distinguished from the authoritie of the Canon, For that the authoritie of the sacred Scrip∣tures can neither deceiue nor be decei∣ued. And by those bookes we may freely iudge of other writings, both of Christi∣ans and Infidels. And thus much for the second note.

The reason of the third note lies thus.

• If the Reuelation of Saint Iohn be o∣mitted by the Councell of Laodicea, then doth not the Councell set downe the same Canon of the Scriptures, which the Church of England alloweth:
• But the antecedent is true:
• Ergo, the consequent.

Master B. C. would faine finde a knot in a rush, so much doth it please his cauelling, & carping spirit. For if he had obserued in the third page of my Booke, that the aunswere which I there set downe, in the name of the Protestant toucheth onely the bookes, which are in question beeweene vs, hee might haue found, that the proofe I there

brought, was touching the Hebrew Ca∣non of the old Testament. Whereof I might truely say, that this Councell setteth downe the same Canon of the Scriptures, which both the old Church had, and our Church doth hold: for reproofe whereof, the omitting of the Reuelation by the Councell of Laodicea (which was not in question) was impertinently alleaged by you. And thus much for the third note.

The reason of his fourth note lies thus.

• If the Councell forbid the reading of o∣ther bookes not there expressed: then Ma∣ster Vdall can hardly show, how the Church of England, reading the history of Iudith and Tobie in their publique assemblies, a∣greeth with the decree of that Councell:
• But the antecedent is true:
• Ergo, the consequent.

Is not this substantiall stuffe, and wor∣thy of Master B. C. learning? What if I could not shew this? What inconuenience were it to the Church of England; or what aduantageth it my aduersary? Doth any of vs acknowledge, that the Church of Eng∣land, is bound to follow the decrees of coun∣cels in all things? Blush then for shame is reason thus idely: yet wee say with S. Hie∣rom.

That the Church readeth those bookes, but receiueth them not amongst the Canonicall Scriptures: And that they are read for instruction of manners, but not alleaged for confirmation of do∣ctrine. But it seemes Master B. C. was much pressed by some of his followers to an∣swere my booke: And therfore to giue them some satisfaction, he would say somewhat, though it were to little purpose.

And thus much for the fourth note.

The reason of his fift note lieth thus.

• If these words (And receiued into au∣thoritie) be not to be found in that Councel: then M. Vdall hath corrupted the Councell by adding some thing of his owne:
• But the Antecedent is true:
• Ergo, the consequent.

• To this I answere, that those words are found in the Councell; and therefore Master Vdall is slaunderously charged by Master B. C. The words are these, Quae autem oporteat legi, & in authoritatē recipi, hec sunt. Those Bookes which must be read and receiued into authoritie, are these. From which thus I dispute, those bookes, which are to bee receiued into authoritie, are those set downe by the Councell:

• But the bookes we call Apocrypha, are not there set downe by the Councell:
• Ergo, those bookes, which we call Apo∣crypha, are not to be receiued into authori∣tie.

Now, that I may pay M B. C. in his owne coine, how many of these his wor∣thie notes, may be returned him; for hauing neither truth, nor Schollership; as the v∣sing that silly shift of wrangling Sophisters; to take that for graunted, which hee should haue proued: The weakenesse of his con∣sequence: the charging me to vse the testi∣monie of the Councell, for the Canon of the New Testament, which he knew I applied to the old Testament: the vrging of imperti∣nent reasons without end, or purpose: and the charging me with corrupting the Coun∣cell, when the same wordes are there found? would any man haue thought, that he, that takes vpon him to be a Censurer of others, should haue bene iustly conuinced, of so ma∣ny grosse ouersights before alleaged?

B. C. Sect. 6.

IN the same fift page, he maketh vs to allow the fourth booke of Esdras most vntruely, and that contrary to his owne

knowledge, when as in the second page he confesseth, that we account both the third and fourth of Esdras for Apo∣crypha.

T. V.

IN the same page, (from whence you take this exception) my wordes are these, I omitte many seuerall con∣tradictions, in all or moste of the bookes, which we reiect, and they allow, wherby they may be conuinced, not to be written by the spirit of God, which is alwayes one, and the same. See the 4. of Esdras 10.20. and 2. Maccab. 2.4. and 1. Mac. 1.6. and 8. touching Antiochus. My reason here may be thus deduced.

• Those bookes, which imply contradi∣ction in themselues, cannot come from the spirit of God, who is alwayes one and the same:
• But all, or most of the bookes, which we reiect, and they allow, implie contradiction in themselues:
• Ergo, all or most of the bookes, which we reiect, and they allow, cannot come from the spirit of God, who is alwayes one and the same.

The Maior is euident, and the Minor is,

in part thus proued: and may more largely hereafter, if occasion be offered. Antiochus is said, in the first booke of Maccabees ca. 6. to die in Babylon for griefe of the good successe of the Iewes: and in the 2. booke cap. 1. Antiochus was, with the rest of the Souldiers, slaine in the Temple of Nanea, and his head cut off, and throwne foorth. And in the ninth chapter, That hee died a miserable death in a strange Country amongst the mountaines, against which Master B. C. reasoneth thus.

• He that makes vs to allow and disallow one and the same booke, speakes vntruly con∣trary to his knowledge:
• But T. V. in his fift page, makes vs al∣low the fourth booke of Esdras, which in the second page, hee confesseth, wee disal∣low:
• Ergo, T.V. speakes vntruly, contrarie to his owne knowledge.

You here charge me with the right na∣ture of a lie, though you pretend, you would not haue the quarrell of God prosecuted like the quarrels of the world: but you haue in∣vred your tongue to such immodest tearmes; that you cannot much taxe me, if I haue beene more sharpe, then I purposed.

But I denie your Minor, and if you can, withall your Schollershippe (out of my wordes, which I haue set downe of purpose) conuince me either of vntruth, or contradi∣ction: I will acknowledge you to haue more learning, then you haue yet shewed in your booke. All, that I might haue bene char∣ged with, was the misquoting of the Chap∣ters, and the bidding you see the fourth of Esdras: which being receiued by both, can∣not fit your cauelling spirit to imply any contradiction or vntruth in my words: but you are fitter to cauell, then to answere the reason there brought: and yet this place must make vp the number; but I pittie your necessitie.

B. C. Sect. 7.

PAge, 51. To eneruat the force of gene∣rall coūcels thus he writeth. Bellar. re∣iecteth wholy seauen generall Councels. That learned Prelate is iniuriously intreated, for who would not thinke, that Master Vdall spake of lawfull and true generall Councells, as though such were reiected by Bellarmine, which is nothing so: for he speaketh of certaine detestable conuen∣ticles, assembled by the Arrians and other like perfidious heretikes, which they

called generall, Primum generale, &c. The first Generall Councell (saith Bellarmine) in the opinion of the Arrians, which is reiected, is the Councell of Antioch, &c. If these bee de∣tested by Protestants also for vnlawfull and wicked, why is Cardinall Bellarmine singled out as though hee alone refused them? or the matter so cunningly deliue∣red, as though they were reuerenced by Master Ʋdall and Protestants for law∣full generall Councels? This is not to deale sincerely, and to seeke truth with a pure and vpright heart, vnlesse he bee so carelesse, as to receiue all vpon the report of others, which yet cannot wholy bee excused.

T. V.

IN the 51. page, my reason lies thus.

• If Papists reiect generall Councels, we may reiect them:
• But Papists reiect generall Councels:
• Ergo, we may reiect them.

The Minor is prooued in the 50. 51. page, &c. by Andradius, Bellarmine, Pig∣hius, and Pope Leo. Against which Ma∣ster B. C. reasoneth thus.

• If those Councels reiected by Bellar∣mine,

• were the vnlawfull conuenticles of the Arians, and no other: and such as the Protestants hold for vnlawfull and wicked Councels; Then is that learned Prelate iniuriously delt with by Master Vdall, to eneruate the force of generall Councels: which is not to seeke the trueth with an vp∣right heart:
• But the Antecedent is true:
• Ergo, the Consequent.

I denie the Minor, for Bellarmine in the same Section reiectes the Councell of Con∣stantinople and Chalcedon, as (no doubt) be doth diuers other Councels, that haue resisted the Bishop of Rome. But doe not I charge Bellarmine truly with the reiecti∣on of seuen generall Councels? But you will say these were no lawfull Councels: Why so? you must now runne to your old shift, and say, because they were not confirmed by the Pope. And yet Liberius the Pope subscribing to the heresie of the Arians (as S. Hierom saith) no doubt confirmed some of them. But you wil say, These were wic∣ked, and detestable Conuenticles: so say the Protestants. But what makes them detestable? not the want of confirmation (for then this doctrine was not dreampt of)

but their corruption in doctrine. For many Councels lawfully called, and lawfull and generall Councels, and such as Popes haue confirmed; haue broached many vnsound doctrines, as I haue giuen some particular instances in my booke and shall giue more, as occasion shall be offered. Which yet I will confirme by a learned Papist, (equall with Master B. C. in learning, and iudge∣ment) as I haue cited him in my booke. Pighius saith, It is certaine, that not one∣ly these Councels of Constance and Basill, which we now disprooue, haue shame∣fully and absurdly erred, but also many others. And againe, we find, that gene∣rall Councels, euen of holy Fathers, haue erred in decrees of faith: for example of generall Councels, The Councell of Ari∣minum, vniuersall no doubt; and also the Councell of Ephesus, and that like∣wise vniuersall: these I say are witnesses, that euen generall Councels and those lawfully gathered, may erre. You see Ma∣ster B. C. That Pighius, no partiall wit∣nesse for vs, calles some of those Councels lawfull, and generall, which Bellarmine re∣iects: and likewise he reiects the Councels of Constance and Basill: wherein (no

doubt) Bellarmine agrées with him, in that point, where those Councels preferre the Councell before the Pope.

And yet Pope Martin the fift, in the last Sessiō of the Councell of Constance appro∣ueth in his Bul all those decrees, which were made by this Councell in matters of faith, & prayseth and confirmeth them. And for the Councell of Basill, The Diuines of Paris prayse and defend the authoritie thereof a∣gainst Leo the tenth, and their commenda∣tion and defence thereof is extant in print.

And if Master B. C. sinceritie were such, as he pretends, he could not be ignorant, that Papists haue reiected those Councels, which cannot be denied to be both lawfull, and generall. And if the vntruths, you haue obiected against Master Bell, and Master Rogers, be no better proued, you haue blot∣ted much paper, to little purpose. For what are these exceptions against my booke, but a ridiculous biting at the héele, when you are wounded at the heart?

B. C. Sect. 8.

THus much shall serue at this time, for by Gods assistance, I intend heere∣after more to lay open the manifold ma∣ladies

of his treatise, and to shew with what weake engines he laboureth to vn∣dermine the impregnable grounds of the Catholike Church. God graunt that the happie newes of his conuersion, may crosse these my designements, whereof I see no cause to dispaire, if truly zeale of religion, and desire of saluation, which so much he would seeme to thirst after, hath embouldened him being a lay man, to launch into the depth of these mysticall matters. Let him not relie too much vnto those, from whom he receiueth the sub∣stance of that he writeth, least together with the losse of his reputation, hee in∣curre also the daunger of eternall damna∣tion: and if vpon this small warning, he findeth himselfe to haue bene deceiued, wisedome would, he should more care∣fully looke how he trusteth, where hee hath bene abused: and with greater dili∣gence both to examine his owne wri∣ters, and also to reade ours, namely Cardinall Bellarmine, where hee shall finde the most of his obiections an∣swered, as the Catholique author of that letter, which hee hath put downe in his booke, truely enformeth him. To which,

that giueth no satisfaction, alleaged by M. Vdall for answere, to wit, that Bellar∣mines reasons, are by the learned of his side sufficiently handled and replied vn∣to: when as the most of the arguments in his booke be answered by Bellarmine, and nothing doe I find brought by M. Vdall to infringe his solutions: which giueth me iust cause to suspect, that hee is with the preconceyted sinceritie of his owne doctors, carried away into error, and so looketh litle into the Originals: which if he did, he culd not but find that which he pretendeth to seeke for, if he shut not his eyes against the truth, as he professeth he will not. Which that he may doe, I shall not forget to commend him to his mer∣cy, who desireth not the death of a sinner, but that all should come to the know∣ledge of his name. But if it shall fall out, that he will still proceede forward in his former course, yet I would wish him in writing, to abstaine from all biting and bitter words, which sometime he brea∣keth into, that the quarrell of God may not be prosecuted like the quarrels of this world, but with that modesty, which becommeth the professors of diuinity and religion.

T. V.

YOu see M. B. C. that I haue iustified and freed my selfe, from all those vniust imputations, wherewith you charged me. And therefore since you ingage your selfe, by this your promise; To lay open the mani∣fold maladies of my former Treatise: and to shew with what weake engines (as you phrase them) I labour to vnder∣mine the impregnable grounds of the Ca∣tholique Church: I hope you will take warning by this little, that hath bene shew∣ed you; to deale more sincerely in that which is to come: wherein it shall be much for your owne credit, and the reputation of the Catholique cause, whereof you so much boast, to be so impregnable: that you answer not by patches and peeces, picked heere and there for your most aduantage (as your Cō∣mon custome is) but that you set downe my words verbatim: with the same equity that I haue shewed in this, for if you deale other∣wise, I shall scarce iudge you worthy of any further answer. And in the meane time I dare promise, That your designemēts shal no way bee crost with the newes of my conuersion: though I protest, I will weigh the reasons, that shall be deliuered by

you hereafter, with all indifferencie and good conscience. Albeit, I thinke it no such bold∣nesse, as you censure it, To launch into the depth of these mysticall matters: since I hold it the dutie of euery Christian, to know the grounds of his Religion to be infallible; before he build his faith theron. And for the relying vpon any man. I neither haue, nor wil, further then truth shal warrant, as nere as God shall mable me to iudge; so y^t if I be deceiued (which I see no cause yet to distrust) it is error in my iudgment, not euil affection in my will. And whereas you wish me to read your Authors: I may truly say, I ne∣uer refused to read any of thē: nor conference with any, how learned so euer: Or how much so euer I might thereby haue disad∣uantaged my selfe: and yet I was still more and more confirmed in the opinion I now hold; and wherein I hope to die: vnlesse Master B.C. will, for the merite of winning soules, make knowne some more certainty in the grounds of Poperie, then I euer yet read, or heard of. You tell me, That Bellar∣mine hath answered most of my obiecti∣ons, as the Catholique Author of that letter (inserted by me) hath truely infor∣med me, to which (you say) my answere

giueth no satifaction. And which yet is straunge, you confesse my aunswere to bee this: That Bellarmines reasons are by the learned of our side, sufficiently handled and replied too. Against which (very ab∣surdly in my poore opinion (you reiterate the same speech againe; and say, That the most of the arguments in my booke, be answered by Bellarmine; and that you find nothing brought by mee to infringe his solutions: Insinuating, with more skill, then sinceritie, That you had vrged some particular instances therof; whereto I had said nothing. But if you had truely layd downe my answere in my letter; it would much haue blemished the reputation, both of your selfe, and that Catholique Author; That being so much vrged by me, neither of you both could, or would bring any such instance. And how should I giue a solution to that, which neitherof you both euer in∣stanced, though I much vrged it in my let∣ter, as these words there testifie, viz. And whereas you referre me in the conclusi∣on of your letter, to Bellarmine de Pont. & de Consiliis, where you say, I shall finde most of my obiections of the errors of Popes, and Councels refuted: so can I,

when soeuer you shall instance any such particular refutation (which may ease you of some paines if it be so sufficiently performed) referre you to some of the Authors, of our side; where the same rea∣sons, haue beene with no lesse sufficiency handled, and replied too: assuring my selfe, that neither any of you haue or can, make any obiection against the doctrine we professe, that hath not bene alreadie obiected, and likewise by vs aunswered. And if any can shew me the contrary, I will be beholding to him; neither will I shut mine eyes against the truth. May you not now blush M. B. C. to affirme, that this my answere giues no satisfaction? And hauing read this, to auouch, That you finde nothing brought by M. Vdall to infringe his solutions: When neither the Author of that Catholike letter then, (as I haue said) nor your self now, durst, as it may be presumed, instance an answere out of Bellarmine, to any one particular obiection of mine? And yet, if you had done this; it had bene but expence, and losse both of la∣bour and time. For as oft as you produce a∣ny aunswere, of the writers of your side a∣gainst vs: so oft must I bring the replie of

the learned of our side, in discharge thereof: and so according to the fashion of this age, fill the world full of bookes, touching these controuersies, which haue bene alreadie handled, with much more sufficiency, then either of vs can: for I am very confident, that neither you, nor I, can bring any thing touching this subiect; that hath not bene al∣ready sayd: howsoeuer we may giue it a new glosse, thereby to make it seeme to bee our owne. And since you wish me, if I be willing to proceede; (whereto I am both ready and willing) to absteine from all by∣ting, and bitter words; that the quarrell of God may not be prosecuted, like the quarrels of this world: I must likewise wish, for my own Apology, that you had ob∣serued this your owne rule to me & others: for then had I not failed in satisfying this so good a desire. And for the better effecting thereof hereafter, and for the sounder tryall of those impregnable grounds, whereof you are so confident: I earnestly request, and coniure you by the loue of truth; that wee may both appeare, at the iudiciall seat of a true Syllogisme (which we may doe with∣out any safe conduct) where the substance of

the plea, betweene vs shall be: whether there be any certaintie in the grounds of Poperie. And for that it seemeth by your facilitie in aunswering three bookes at once (for so no doubt your Popish followers will conceiue of it) That you are so conuersant in controuersies, That a man cannot faile to receiue satisfaction at your hands: I be∣seech you, that this my request may be per∣formed Logically by Syllogismes, & Theo∣logically, by Scripture proofe. So shall we auoide all impertinent discoursing and trifling; all gibing, and reproching, and so charitably without bitternesse, or indeuor to disgrace each other; finish this combate to Gods glorie, and to the satisfaction of many: for if your grounds can be iustified; all controuersies, will quickely bee ended. But I haue no great hope to draw you to this course; for you know too wel, That the grounds of your Religion cannot abide the touchstone of this triall: though it would hee great glorie to you, but to vndertake that, which none of the learned of your side, could euer yet be drawen too: though I am perswaded, your Popish dependants will assure themselues, you will not refuse so

sure, and learned a triall. But to conclude with the same charitie to you, which you seeme to shew to me; I will pray vnto my God, that he will enlighten your heart and vnderstanding, with the spirit of his wise∣dome and grace: that you may dis∣cerne the truth of Christian Re∣ligion, to the glory of God and your owne Sal∣uation.

Tho. Vdall.

FINIS.

Notes

• Mat. 8.16.
• In the yeere 1565.
• In the yeere 1565.
• Detection. lib. 5. pag. 410.
• Nicola. Cu∣sa. ad Bo∣hem. Epist. 7
• Ad Bohem. Epist. 2.
• a

  Syluest. Prier, cont. Lutheri con∣clusiones de potest. Pap.
• b

  Dist. 40. C. Si Papa.
• c

  Eckius de Eccles.
• d

  Henric. Ma∣gist. Sacr Pa∣••atii Romae ad legat Bo∣hem. sub Feli∣ce pap. 1447.
• e

  Vid. Kemp∣nit. exam. part. 1. pag. 47.
• Arituerplae ex officin•• Chri∣stoph. Plaut. 1584.
• (a)

  Hier. in prol. galea. & epist. ad Pau∣li. et in praefa. lib. Reg. et in praefa. prolo. Salom.
• (b)

  Ruf. in his expo. vpon the Creede.
• (c)

  Cyril. of Hieru. in the 4. of his Catachis.
• (d)

  Athan. in Synop. Salu. Sempit.
• (e)

  Nazianz. in carminib.
• (f)

  Epipha. de mensu. et pond.
• (g)

  Cypr. vpon the Creede.
• (h)

  Damas. 49.
• (i)

  Hugo. de Sanct. vict. de Sac. in prolog. lib. 1. cap. 7.
• (k)

  Radul. in Leuit. lib. 14. cap. 1.
• (l)

  Lyr. in pro. in lib. Apoc.
• (m)

  Hugo Car. in pr. Iosua.
• (n)

  Arias in his Hebrewe Bible.
• Prefat. Sect. 18. of his booke.
• Can. 59.
• Can. 48. Can. 50.
• Can. 82. Can 6. Can. 58.
• Cont. Max. lib. 3. ca. 14.
• Greg. Tom. 3. pag. 291.
• Lib. de sex aet atibus In Iustiniano.
• Sciendū est quod in vniuersali∣bus octo concilijs, vbi imperatores interfuerunt, & non Papa, semper inuenio imperatores & iudices suos, cum senatu, primatum habuisse, & officium praesidentiae per interlocutiones, & ex consensu Synodi, conclusiones & iudicium fecisse, & non inuenitur instantia in octo concilijs, preterquam in tertia actione concilij Chalcedonensis. Cusan. lib. 3. cap. 16. de concord. Ca∣thol. Cap. 19.
• De cont. li. 2. ca. 14.
• Prefat. Sy∣nod. Trul. ad Iustini.
• De natur. & gra. contr. pelag. ca. 61. Ibidem.
• Cont. Faust lib. 11. ca. 5.
• Epist. 48. de Peccat. Merit. & Re∣miss. l. 1. c. 22
• Cont. Cres∣con. lib. 2. cap. 3.
• See the 4. page of my booke. Hierom. prae∣fa. in lib. So∣lom. Rufin. in expos. Symb. apud Cyprian
• Lib. 1. de Con. cil. cap. 6. and not lib. 10. cap. 60. as M. Vdall quoteth it.
• Damasus in pontificuli. vide Fulk. Rhem. Test. Act. 15. Sect 7.
• Pighius Hierar. Ec∣cle. lib. 6. ca. 4. & 5. &. 13.