Refractoria disputatio: or, The thwarting conference,: in a discourse between [brace] Thraso, one of the late Kings colonels. Neutralis, a sojourner in the city. Prelaticus, a chaplain to the late King. Patriotus, a well-willer to the Parliament. All of them differently affected, and disputing on the subjects inserted after the epistle, on the dissolution of the late Parliament, and other changes of state.

Refractoria Disputatio: OR, The Thawrting Conference.

Thraso.

GEntlemen, you are all well met; I perceive you are as good as your words; but now Signiour Patriotus, tell me what is become of your late piece of a Parliament; have they not enacted hand somely to Act them∣selves out of their usurped powers, by their injustice and self ends, without any respect either to the publick good, or any poor mans private interest? hath not God in his ju∣stice dealt with them, as they did with the late innocent King, and all of us of his ser••ants? Tell me I beseech you what will be the issue of this inter-meddly of Government, and whether in the end, confusion will not neces∣sarily follow these strange mutations, and ac∣compt taken of them for their extortions, and

corrupt d••meanors towards the whole Na∣tion?

Patriotus.

I finde you are still in your old ••one; but as in our last conference and elsewhere, I have often told you, so now, I shal not take upon me to justifie every of their actions; for they are men made up and com∣posed of flesh and blood, subject to sin and error; and that the same God who gave them the power they have had, would as soon di∣vest them of it, as (beyond all expectation) he bequeathed it unto them, in case they car∣ried not themselves with an upright heart; As to those your Prophetical issues to follow in confusion, and of after-reckonings, may it be∣fall them that deserve it; for my hope it, and I doubt not, but that Almighty God i•• his providence, on this great change of affairs, hath another manner of work in hand then lies within your kenning to discern, and will raise us up such unbyassed Governors as shall set straight all obliquities, both in the Church and State, to his own glory and the comfort of all good men; therefore let me advise y••u, not to be too rash in your censure, on that whereof you are not able to judge, nei∣ther de••cant on his judgements, which are in••crutable and past your finding out.

N••us.

But Patriotus, I remember at our last con••erence, you also were pleased to

vent your self in the way of predictions, in∣timating that we must expect worse calami∣ties then heretofore we have endured, which as you then supposed, would of necessity befal the universal Nation, not onely in the continuation of the Contributions and Taxes imposed on the people, but in other grievous afflictions, which I prosess have ever since very much troubled my cogitations; for God knows we have all suffered too much already, and more then the ability of poor people can longer endure; though I confess, for any thing I can as yet discern out of the motions of the State, the Contri∣butions must of necessity be continued, if not encreas'd, for maintenance of their Armies both by Land and Sea, and not unlikely will be long lived, and continued for a Prenti∣ship, haply of seven years endurance.

Patri.

Yes, Neutralis, and longer then you imagine; for considering the work the States at present have in hand, within our in-works, to suppress the malignant Party; and in our out-works, for defending the Domini∣on of our Seas, against the invading and in∣grateful Hollander; we cannot in any reason ex∣pect any cessation or remission of our Taxes, but that constanrly they will be continued,

if not encreased; and of this we have a president in the change of the Government in the Nether-Lands; where, on their revolt from the Spaniard, the States were enforc'd to raise their Excise on all things which the Natives did eat or drink, and to impose Cu∣stoms on all sorts of Merchandize, either im∣ported or exported; without which, they could never have been enabled to pay their Armies, and to wage war with so potent a Prince as the King of Spain, and that for 80 years endurance at least; which shewes out unto us what we are to expect, even a con∣tinuation of our Taxes, and well it would be if we escape so.

Prela.

Its a fine liberty and freedom then, that the late Parliament and your reformers have procured to the Nation; and indeed Patriotus, I am of your opinion, that the States here (as you stile them) must of ne∣cessity continue, if not encrease the Contri∣butions, when as all the Kings Lands and goods, the Bishops and Delinquents Estates are sold and spent, and when the King comes in to multiply their charge, and en∣force them for payment of their Armies, to take any thing (as often they have done) wheresoever the Souldier can finde it; there being but one only way left us to preserve the Nation from utter ruine and a final de∣struction.

Neut.

I beseech you Doctor, what one way is that? I shall be very thankful unto you to shew me that learning, that so we may see an end of our miseries, and that such as my self (who never bore Arms on either side, neither had a hand in shedding of one drop of blood) might come at length to know the uttermost of our pain, and en∣joy our wonted tranquillity.

Prel.

In brief Neutralis, 'tis the admission of the King to his Royal Rights; for without a King, and the restitution of the Crown-Lands, and the Churches Patrimony, never expect an end of our calamities, but an ever∣lasting war, with the continuation of the Taxes, and oppressions of the poor people, so long as those innocent Princes of the Royal Line are unjustly kept out of their In∣heritance; the example whereof we may see in Holland, very judiciously even now in∣stanced by Patriotus, to whose judgement I appeal, as the readiest and surest remedy to cure the convulsions of the Land, and to settle peace throughout the three Nations, which otherwise is impossible to accom∣plish.

Patri.

Doctor, give me leave to dissent from your Opinion, and in the first place, to remember you of that wherewith even now you and the Colonel taxed the Par∣liament

with, the oppressions of the people, wherein you over-shoot the mark without looking to the original causes and the rea∣sons which have enforc't the States to impose those payments on the Natives, which are necessitated for keeping the poor people from farther bloodshed and oppression: 'Tis in part true, that in case the King of Scots could be as readily admitted as you speak it, and in a peaceable and safe way for the Nation, both in respect of the present and suture security, it might haply conduce somewhat toward a present settelment of affairs for a time, which would not be either long or lasting, but never disburthen us of our payments; for as the case now stands, on admission of any one of the late Kings Linage, he would doubtless on all opportu∣nities have an animum revertendi, a minde to the old way, viz. to rule at will and pleasure, (an ambition inseparably united to the Sep••ers of all Kings, especially to these which claim successively and de jure Coronae;) so that in a short time, we should be in statu quo priùs enforc't to fight over again & again the old quarrel fo•• preservation of the com∣mon Liberty; Therefore I beseech you Do∣ctor, consider well of the present condition wherein we are, together with the setled re∣solution of the State here in being, which

have not onely taken away the late Kings life, as the onely remedy left them to settle a firm peace; but farther have resolved to exclude his Posterity, a•• not holding the Fathers blood either a sufficient expiation for the infinity of blood spilt throughout the three Nations, or the Royalties and Pos∣sessions of the Crown, neither the Lands of the Bishops (which without all question were the grand sticklers and promoters of all our late concussions) a competent a∣mends for the injuries and losses suffered by the three Nations, but in detestation of Kingly Government (whence through all Ages hath proceeded such numberless op∣pressions and imbroylments) never to ad∣mit of any more Kings; besides, you may take it in the way, what an essay the States have already made for the settlement o•• an Aristocratical Government, in im••••acion of the Romans, af••er their cuting of Tarquin us and his Posterity for Ty••anny; an•• a•• of later days▪ the States of Holland have done, and prosperously accomphshed; I app••al to your own judgement, (whether the King of Scots coming in by sorce of Arms or not at all) w••ll not plunge the Nation into an irreparable condi∣tion? yea, into ten degrees worse then at

present we are in? and that of necessity i•• must be so, and can be no other; please you to have patience, I shail render you many infallible reasons, and such as I believe can∣not be gainsaid; besides, 'tis well known, that the present Pretender is affected, haply infected with his Fathers principles of abso∣lute Soveraignty, which will never sute with the genius of the States here in being, which have the staffe in their hands, with the Powers and strengths of all the Land at their only command, and for ought I can perceive, are both able & intentive to uphold the pre∣sent Government, and so to establish it, that in mans reason its impossible to divest them otherwise then by a stronger power, which I believe lies not within the Scotch Kings reach to compass.

Prel.

Doubt not you of that; for the King is not so destitute of friends and means to accomplish his designs as you imagine; nei∣ther am I of your opinion that the Kings coming in will make our condition worse then now it is; for worser it cannot be; but on the contrary, he will out of his in∣nate goodness and compassion towards the poor oppressed people, relieve them in what possibly he may, and that by an act of Oblivion, all old grutches with the late dissentions shall be coffin'd up and forgot∣ten,

in his gracious and general pardon to all parties; And I am cleerly of opinion that there can be no safer and readier way to compose all feuds and differences to ease the people of their Contributions, and reestablish an everlasting peace throughout the three Nations, then the acceptance of his Majesty to be our King, as of right he ought to be, and as I doubt not ere long he shall be in spight of all his enemies.

Patri.

Doctor, I be••eech you, let us reason this case amongst our selves in moderation, and with patience, and let the first Quere be whether the States Government, as 'tis now setled, or shortly may be, with our present Contributions for payment of their Armies, wil not be more safe and easie for the people, then the Scotch Pretenders coming in by force of Arms to assume the Kingly Govern∣ment; Since, by a peaceable and conditional way, I suppose, he will never be admitted; So that Doctor, without all question he hath no choice left him, but that of the sword, and then judge you of the issue, and into what a lamentable condition the poor Na∣tives will necessarily be reduced, when the right of the crown comes again to be dis∣puted on English ground, the king (as you would have him) being personally pre∣sent; And after this Quere, Let us compute

the hopes, helps, strengths, and assistances, whereon both parties may dep••nd for sup∣port of each others cause; For one battel either by Sea or Land, happily will not de∣termine the controversie, as twas conceived by some, that one battel (as that at Edghill) in the begining of the late wars would decide the business, which proved to be like the pul∣lulation of the Monster Hidra's head, which begot others in infinitum, and when the late King was in person in the head of his A••my. I say then, Let us make an ••stimate of the forces and assistances of each party; which on a due examination, and on consideration of that which must ne∣cessarily follow, when at once (as we may conjecture) two, four, or happily six several Armies may be in the field, will be so far from easing, or d••sburchening of the people, that what by free Quartering, and inforcing of contributions by one or the other party, that the Natives will curse the time that ever your King came amongst them. Now Gentlemen, do one of you tell me, what Forces and Assistances (as you conceive) the King may have or presume upon; for I

believe he will come short of his expectation in receiving any considerable Assistance, either from the Scotch, or Irish, and then I will tell you, that which all men and your selves do know to be most true, what the States here have, and may have, as well in their present power by Sea and Land, as by their Politique managery, in fastning friends unto them, whereby to make good the present establishment: Colonel, You being a Souldier, and (not unlikely) having better Intelli∣gence, from abroad, then any of us, what preparations the Scots King hath in forraign parts, what friends at home and elsewhere, begin you if you please, and I will rejoyn.

Thraso.

With all my heart; In the first place I'le assure you, that since the death of the late King my Royal Master, his Majesty that now is, whom the States here would ex∣clude, hath ten friends for one, more then he had before, thoughout the three King∣doms; so much your States have gotten by the bargains in Martyring their King: neither ought you to believe, but that the King hath both in Scotland, and Ireland, a very considerable party that will joyn with him as soon as he arrives, and not a few even in the City of London, which expect a good time, though they lie still and quiet; however the King hath their hearts, and will have their

hands on all fitting occasions; Besides, He hath at his devotion all the Catholikes, and most of the Clergy of England, with all the Lords, so lately and Injuriously thrust out of their house, together with the better part of the Members of the Commons house, pul••ed out by the ears, by the Independent Soulde∣ry, all which refused to take the Engagement, and when time serves will appear in Arms for him, besides all the old Royal party Banish∣ed the Realm for their fi∣delity to their old Master: Thus much for the ayds and assistances his Majesty may relie on from his own Subjects; And as to his forraign assistance, you may rest assured that all the Princes through Christen∣dom (when the time serves) will engage for him, since it stands them upon so to do; Neither may you doubt but that all the Princes, his neer Kinsmen, and Allyes will furnish him plentifully with all sorts of Am∣munition, and the Hollanders with shipping, so soon as they have mastered the Seas, and made all things ready for an Invasion; for be∣lieve it as an evident truth, that in the present quarrel by Sea between them and this State, the Kings Interest is involved, and will be pursued, notwithstanding their late brush which they reckon not of, neither of a few

inconsiderable Ships, they having enough of others to recrute in a trice; so that you may evidently see, that as soon as time serves, the King cannot want men: and for mony, good Swords and Pistols will fetch it in with a ven∣geance; Whence you may discern what an unwildy task the late piece of a Parliament, and these new sprang-up States have under∣taken, and what will necessarily befall them, through their own divisions & when the King appears in power, (as of that you may be sure, he will sooner then you think on) then you shall see a world of the Parliaments friends to fall from them, & for their own sakes will fight for him; and probable it is, that a good number of the States Souldiers, now in their pay, on his Majesties landing (with another manner of equipage then all of you are aware of) will run from them to him, with all their hearts as their indubitable Lord & Soveraign.

Partri.

Colonel, you have indeed suc∣cinctly summ'd up what Forces (as you sur∣mise) the King may have and expect both at home and from abroad: wherein you are very much mistaken, and do reckon without your host; you speak rather what you would have, then in reason what the King can have: still discovering your malignant heart, and flattering your self (as most of your party use to do) with vain and imagi∣nary

hopes, not considering how the late King, notwithstanding all his wyles and at∣tifices, fail'd in all his designs and practises, and at last, brought him self and his friends to utter ruine, to the great detriment and desolation of three Kingdoms, still soothing up himself with the goodness of his cause (which was as bad as bad might be) to the last gaspe; neither take you the least notice of Gods providence in the disposure of this wonderful work and change of Affairs, nei∣ther the continued series of the many mita∣culous Victories which it hath pleased God to give to the States Armies, wherein the very hand of the Almighty is most perspi∣cuous to all good men; but to you and your complices hidden and unseen, even to obdu∣racy and hardning of your hearts. The hea∣then Poet methinks should teach you, Quos u••lt perder•• Jupiter dementat, whom God intends to destroy, he blinds and hardens them as he did Pharoah. But Colonel; I b••∣seech you, on your better consideration, tell me what assistance can the Princes the Kings kindred afford him, were they able and willing to ayd him? and in what Region are they, and in what Climate we? are we not both severed by the vast Ocean? I shall tell you a story, and of one

of the greatest Princes Christian of his time, even the Emperour Charls the Fifth, who on a defiance sent him by Henry the Eighth, made this Answer to the Herald, Tell my Ʋncle from me, he talks big, and like the Fox in h•••• burrow when he knows himself in safety, so your Master environed with the Sea, but were he on the Continent, happily then he might be talkt withal on better terms then he sends ••e: You may gue••s at the application. What hurt I pray can the Kings of France, Spain, Por∣tugal, Denmark, Sweden, with other the Princes of Germany do to this State (in hu∣mane judgement) as 'tis an Island environed with the vast Ocean, provided with all In∣struments and Abiliments of War both by Sea & Land•• could their own domestick wars, jealousies, and differences give them leave to attempt against this State: Which without doubt is backed by the power of Heaven, had you the grace to see it, & therewith to call to mind in what strength the late King was but 1645, and of how many strong Garrisons posseft, and what Armies, (almost) in every County of the Land; how many of the Nobi∣lity & prime Gentry in every Province at his devotion, how powerful in Scotland and Ireland? and yet within 15 Moneths beaten in all places, his many Garrisons and him••elf taken. Look upon the attempts of his Son,

whom all of you so much adore and desire, that he would pursue his obstinate Fathers quarrel to the further destruction of the Na∣tives; look upon the Scots beaten under Ham∣bleton with the whole Nation, by the now Lord General Cromwel; and Ireland likewise reduced by him, and the King himsef with his powerful Army beaten to flitters at Worcester; the Hollanders at Sea; and yet all of you of the Royal Party still flatter your selves with vain hopes, by re∣embroyling the Nation in a new War, which can be to no other effect but to the ruine of your selves, in kicking against the pricks, and the immediate hand of the Almighty. Now Colonel, I shall tell you particularly what the States Forces are at present, and what a posture of defence and offence they are in, and will be on any In∣vasion from abroad, or rising at home; First, they are possest of all the Forts, Ports, Castles, and Ammunion of the Land, toge∣ther with a very great Naval Force, and as occasion requires, more they may and will have; the whole revenue of the Nation be∣ing at their command; Moreover, they have a very great veteran and Victorious Army, ready disciplin'd on all occasions, under their pay, and maintain'd at the Natives charge, all the Commanders and Souldiers inured to the Wars, and as I may say, of one Cor∣poration

and fraternity, such as knows each others minds, and what they are to do on all Invasions and home-bred disturbances; and this is obvious to all men, and known to your selves, when as all those numbers you speak of to be here for the King hand and heart, yet is it evident they will never be able to imbody to any purpose, but will be cut all in pieces whensoever they attempt it, and that by the States horse dispersed throughout the Land: Again, You must of necessity admit that the Scotch King can never make his preparations so silent, but that such is the vigilance of the States (where∣soever his rendezvouz shall be) but that they will have particular intelligence thereof, and will be ready with a powerful Fleet to impead the transport of any considerable Army so soon as it puts out to Sea, and to fight or sink them before ever they shall set one foot on English ground; and sup∣pose his Naval Forces be never so great, without all question, the States Flect here will be every way equivalent; so that on a right judgment to be made, the Scotch King hath a far more difficult task in hand (being to invade by Sea) then any of us can ima∣gine: Besides, you may re∣member what numbers of the

Gentry and Yeomandry of the Land are tied and fixed to the States, and most of the Com∣manders and Troopers which have bought much of the Kings and Bishops Lands, are all bound to fight as well for the Venders in∣terest as their own; so that you may be sure they will rather stand to the work for their own sakes, then run to the King to their own undoing; now besides all this already recited, I pray take into consideration, the terror which the late sequestrations have im∣prest on all Delinquents and adherents to the late King, with the present poverty and de∣jection of all that party, which both disables and disheartens them to arm in the behalf of a King that eats no other bread then that of Alms-deed: Tis true, there is a numerous party in the Land both of close and open Malignants, some whereof (answerable to their old humour) will talk big and at large in the Kings behalf; but to fight afresh for him, they will be very cautious, especially those which have any thing left them to lose, and when they very well know how many Watches and Sentinels attend their motious th••oughout all corners of the Land.

Prelat.

Its most true, that the King hath a very difficult task in hand for the recovery of his rights, (oeing to inwade by Sea) if we reason ad captum humanum, according to

mans understanding; but 'tis far otherwise, when we come to consider what God will do, who never forsakes the righteous cause, but in his own good time never fails to re∣member and help the afflicted, when they least think on't and when; he that knows his own time will confound the wicked, and such as most impiously have intruded on the Regal Rights, with the administration of justice to the people, which with what equi∣ty they measure out unto them, your own knowledge and the clamours of many an ho∣nest man can best restifie. Now as to your late instance in the Hollanders revolt, and with what success they encountred so power∣ful an Adversary as the King of Spain, worsted him and established their Aristocra∣tical Government, and in humane reason have so fortified it that they seem impregna∣ble; between this case and the late Kings there is a great difference; for as your self hath observed, the grounds and reasons of their revolt first sprang from the impetuous demeanor and Tyranny of Don Alvas de Toledo, who as Lipsius reports, in that short time of his Vice-Roy-ship, put to death and massacred •• not so few as 100000 of the Natives, amongst which the Counts Egmont and Horn, with others of the Nobility, were the chief which withstood his Tyranny, and

stood up in defence of their immunities, which the King of Spain by power would have taken from them; which was a just cause given to the people to revolt, both for safegard of their lives and priviledges, which the four great Dukes of Burgandy suffered them to enjoy; so that on a right understanding of the Hollanders case, which was just and but reason, that when they could not obtain right from the King upon their many Petitions and complaints of the Tyranny of his Ministers, they could do no less then endeavor the preservation of their lives and fortunes; And therefore un∣der the conduct of the Prince of Orange, they seized on divers of the strongest Towns, and the people unanimously fell in with the Prince, and ever since manfully and fortunately have defended themselves. But in the late defection of the English with the Parliaments raising of Armies against their Soveraign Lord, there is no manner of simi∣litude with that of Holland, or any such cause given or ground of the peoples defection; since I presume you will confess that not so much as one guiltless man (during all the late Kings raign) hath been put to death, unless you object and instance in those which by the fatality of the late War befel both parties, which you know to be no other then

fortuna de la gu••ra, not the Kings Tyranny or the least desire of his that a drop of innocent blood should have been spilt; and that which was, was in his own necessitated defence. But I pray take the case as now it stands be∣tween the present King and your States, then you may soon see the difference; for in con∣firmation of the Collonels assertion, I dare affirm the King hath ten friends for one to those on whom the States may rely as firm and fixed to them since his late Majesty was put to death; and that major number, (you may be sure on'••) are all his in body and soul, and do utterly detest that his Royal Father and •• himself should be so unjustly cut off and excluded of his birth-right; and by whom think you, but by an inconsiderable part of the representative, the Souldiery, and a handful of the people theirs adherents? and therefore I say, that the King on a right estimate of his party, upon the least turn of the wheel will have a surerer and a stronger side then possibly the States here can have.

Patri.

Doctor, in this your last reply, I observe some notable particulars; first you approve of the justness of the Hollanders de∣fection; yet you say, that it parrallels not with this of the States here and change of the Government; the reasons you have given

for justifying the Hollander, I confess are most true, self preservation being just and allowable by Gods Law and mans; But that now you should defend their cause, which none of your said party ever did till of late, is somewhat strange, unless it be for that (as you believe) they are secretly engaged in the Scotch Kings Cause; and yet you condemn the late Parliament for de∣fending themselves and their liberties against the late Kings Tyranny, which you shameful∣ly endevor to excuse, and would quit him from all blood-guiltines••. To which I answer, That had you thought upon your own in∣stance of 100000, of the Natives massacred by the Tyranny of the Spaniard, it would have put you in minde of a million of people throughout the three kingdoms slain and murthered, by the meer Tyranny, Plots and practises of the late King, of which you take no notice, but after the wonted manner of all Royalists, you justisty his innocency; so that to the worlds-end you give occasion to the Parliaments party to rip up the faults of the dead, and cause them to display all his Falshoods, frauds, breaches of Oaths and Protestations: But as to your assertion, That the major number of the people here, are for the Scotch Pretender in body and soul, is in part granted you, yet therein you ex∣tremly

delude your self; for the odds in that major number will little advantage him or his party, since the major power lies evident∣ly in the lesser number which are for the States; what then? will it avail a prince (unexperienced) to lead a great yet an un∣disciplin'd Army, against a lesser number but well disciplin'd, valiant and armed Souldi∣ers; though you cannot be ignorant that the States Armies are very strong and nu∣merous in all the three Nations. As to your denyall of the similitude and parallel, I say on the same reasons that the Hollanders took up arms in defence of their liberties, the people here did the same for defence of themselves and their Representative; so that the parallel on the actions of both States holds and is alike, save only in the ••nanimity and univer∣sal promptitude of the Nether Lands in their joyning and uniting of all their Forces, with the Princes retinn••e; tis most true, the parallel in this holds not so ful∣ly; for I must confess the State of the mat∣ter and manner of the revolt of a part of the people from the late King is different, & re∣mains doubtful what may fall out in the issue, in respect that the other major part of the people are conceived still to wish well to his

Son the present Pretender, and that all the three Nations stand in a kinde of distracted condition, in regard that they are divided into parties, sides, factions, fractions, fects, schisms and opinions, which I acknowledge may sooner mar the work of the States now in being then they are aware of. But in a word more to the point, that the major num∣ber of the people are for the Scocth Pre∣tender, I say again, that that number consi∣dered as they are a naked, awed, and dejected bulk of discontented animals, signifies little or nothing, compared with that power of which the States here are possest; neither in humane reason can we see how or by whom they can be dispossest. But let us on all hands suppose that the present Pretender shall land again in England or Scotland, (as of late he did, where you know he was beaten, there, and at Worcester, and forc'•• to fl••e for his life;) again, suppose he comes in with a n••merous Army of French, Dutch, Lorrainers, Germans, Sweeds, Dants, together with all the prescribed Cavaleers, and all these united with a good party of Scotch and Irish, admit them to be in all 60000 fighting men (which will be too great an Army to be transported without a very powerful Navie) such num∣bers you'l grant cannot stay long there, un∣less they mean to eat one another; well

then, you will say, they may instantly march into England, (as of late they did) and not unlikely in two or three several bodies, and in divers ways, the more to distract our Ar∣mies; where you ought to remember that this State hath both in Scotland and the adjacent parts, a very considerable force to encounter these Invaders; but admit again, that the King advances so far as York, though you cannot imagine but that he will be fought with twice or thrice over before he comes thither with fresh men, and not unlikely re∣beaten, as at all places he hath been; but let us again admit that he s••rmounts all difficul∣ties both by Sea and Land, and becomes vi∣ctorious, and triumphantly marches towards London, and that the States Force cannot withstand him, and that on the noise of such sad news, the prevailing party (as you are pleased to stile them) being confound••d with terrour, betake themselves to their heels as their ultimum refugium, and the best way to shist for themselves, and that after this, all is left to the Kings absolute disposement, (as all this not impossible, but exceeding impro∣bable,) what then, on such sudden change of fortune think you, may be the issnes thereof, and what advantage either to your party or the generality of the people, and all Coun∣tries through which his Armies shall march

and Quarter, accompaned with so many Na∣tions dive••sly affected?

Prel.

I confess the people must ne••essarily suffer, and haply in a greater measure then hitherto they have done; yet am I confi∣dent, his Majesty will be very sensible of their sufferings, and in prevention of their farther oppression, and for settling of all things, will immediately call a new Parliament, and re∣duce it to the antient Form and Institution of the three Estates, King, Lords Spiritual and Temporal, with the Commons, and then commit all things to a sober, legal, and Parli∣amentary discussion; and in what manner re∣stitution may be made of his own Lands and goods, the Churches Patrimony, with the many other loosers of his own party; and after all this, in detestation of the foulness of the late War and bloodshed, to bu••y all discontents and heart-burnings (as Judge Jenkins very j••diciously proposes) in an Act of Oblivion, with free pardon to all, except some special persons that had a principal hand in his Fathers death, and for all other of his Subjects, to spare and cherish them in what possible his affaits will permit.

Patri.

Doctor, excuse me, since I utterly dis∣sent from your opinion; for it stands not with reason, or with the Kings then present affaires to take a piece of that course, which

you suppose; and should he be willing, there would be so many of the old Cavalry attend∣ing his person, as well Natives as Forraigners, which would thrust in to be served and grati∣fied, that he should not be suffered to put in practise a title of that which is by you so vainly surmised; but you may build upon't, he would take a clean contrary course, and such a one as the necessity of his then urgent occasions would inforce, and not tie up him∣self to his own disadvantage by an Act of Ob∣livion, which necessarily must disable him ei∣ther to help himself or friends, when the power is in his hands to do what he pleaseth, and carve as he listeth.

Prel.

Since you are so diffident of his Ma∣jesties good nature and intentions towards his Subjects, tell us I beseech you, what you conceive he will do for the speedy settling of peace and amity through the three King∣doms.

Patri.

May I obtain your lice••ce, and a favourable construction of that which I shall deliver, I will tender my opinion, and leave you all to make your own judgments thereon: In the first place, I believe that whereas then he comes in by the sword, in order to his necessities he would rule by the sword and by an Army, with Garrisons throughout the Land, (as now the States up∣on

the point do and must do, if they mean to go through stitch with their work) and thenceforth begin a new Government (as in like manner the States here intend to do) the Laws of the Land (which under the present power the people yet enjoy, as they were wont to do in quiet and peaceable times) would necessarily be subverted and turn'd topsie-turvie, and such introduced in their room as should best sute with the will and pleasure of a Prince that comes in by Conquest, and by the same power will have them to be no other then agrees with his Affairs and resolutions, or as they are in France, if not worse and more absolute, where a single paper signed under the Kings hand hath the same efficacy as an Act of Par∣liament in England: and in order to this, you must expect that his mercenary Souldi∣ers must and would be remembred: If you demand in what; I answer, with the whole plunder of London, as the readiest means to give them all content for their service; and if this seem strange to you, I pray call to minde, that in the late Kings time when no occasion of wars or raising of Armies in any reason were necessary to be levied, but such as our late Grandees, the Earl of Strafford, Canterbury and Cottington would have to be raised against the Scots; that Earl spake it

openly at the Councel-Table 1640, and to no other man then the Lord Mayor Sir Hen∣ry Garway, and others of the Aldermen upon their refusing to lend the king 100000 l. for the Scotch War; It will never do well, (says he) till the King hangs half a dozen of you Aldermen, and then put the whole City to ran∣some: Which was proved against him at his Arraignment; neither did the king forbear the seizing of the Mint for supply of that needless War: so that 'tis evident when Princes have power, they will make no scruple to act any thing that conduceth to their designs, or to take all things where they can finde it, as 'tis well known he did in the late barbarous War; neither will it be impertinent to put you in remembrance of another instance of this kinde, when at or before the beginning of the War, the king took his journey towards Scotland, and over∣took the Scotch Army in their march home∣wards 1641, where he dealt with the princi∣pal Commanders to turn head on the Par∣liament, in reward whereof they should have the plunder of London, with Jewels for security; an overture which some of them were not so dishonest as to conceal, but gave notice thereof to the City and their own Commissioners then here residing: Now, if you farther demand, What the present

Pretender would do in the pre-supposed case, I shall again answer you, that in reason of State (which with Kings and Conquerors hath an immense latitude) he would and could do no less, then to take present order for the satisfaction of his Country-men the Scots, as also for gratifying the proscribed and fugitive Lords, Cavaleers, both English, Scotch and Irish, which first took part with his Father, and in this supposed Conquest, joyn'd in ayd of himself; so that the estates of the Parliament Members would be much with the least to make them all compensati∣on for their services and losses sustained by Seisures, Sequestrations, & many total Confis∣cations; nay, you may rest assured, that there would follow upon such a Conquest, a more exact and rigorous search for Delinquents estates against the king, then ever the Parlia∣ment made for Delinquents against them; and you may build upon't, that not a com∣mon Souldier, whether Native or Stranger, but would press the king for some consider∣able recompence for his service; Insomuch that there would necessarily fall out such a strange change of affairs, and so much op∣pression of the people above that which we

now suffer, as that it would amaze the uni∣versal people to look upon the miseries which would befal them; neither ought you to esteem of that ridiculous surmise of Judge Jenkins, annexed to the conclusion of all his jugling fragments, to wit, that the late kings Act of Oblivion would have been the readi∣est and onely way both to reconcile all dif∣ferences, and (as he infers) settle peace throughout all the three kingdoms, that be∣ing a subtil kinde of begging the Question, and onely for his own private ends, having a tacite relation to himself, though craftily umbrated under the vail of the common good, and in a cunningness to endeer the Souldery to him, with a super-indulgent seemingly care he pretended to have them paid by all means; when the crafty fox only intended his own indemnity, in freeing himself of all debts, acompts and moneys, trusted in his hands, and for many years most unjustly detained from the right owners ; you may take it in the next de∣gree of an article of your faith, that the king com∣ming in (by the way of the sword) cannot (for the reasons alledged) be so prodigal of his grace, as to spend so lavishly on the stock

of his new gotten Conquest, to grant a piece of an Act of Oblivion; for farther proof whereof, I pray remember, that when the late king, after the battel at Edge-hil, fortified Oxford, and as then (to most mens judge∣ment) was in a sairer way to carry all before him, there was not any debate in that mun∣gril Parliament (as the king in his Letters to the Queen calls them) that pleased him, and glad he was to be rid of the tumultuous mo∣tions there made unto him; for even that Conventicle composed of the Fugitive Members of Westminster (plotted by himself) had not the right measure of his foor, but in a confused and streperous manner fell al∣ways athawrt his inclinations, which were secrets he meant not to discover but to such as could guess at them, and comply with his designs before himself came to disclose them; and such as had that faculty, were the best instruments for his turn; and believe it Gentlemen, he was too dark and cunning a Prince for any that he ever imployed; & cer∣tain it is, could he then, or at any other time have destroyed this Parliament, he would have altered the Government, and hanged by de∣grees most, if not all the Members, together with all their adherents, and consequently to have made use of their estates as the exegency of his affairs then required, to gratifie

such of the Nobility and Gentry as he had befool'd in, to side with him, though to their own loss, and that of the universal Nation, and this was well known to all men of an ounce of wit, that made any resort to his Oxford Garrison, as it hath been openly confest by some of his chiefest Comman∣ders , and of greatest trust about his person, since the rendition of that City, and in this particular I appeal to you Colonel, who then waited on his Majesty.

Colonel.

That which you now avouch Patriotus, is a known truth, and the king in reason of State, and in reference to his own profit, and the designs he had in hand, as also for our sakes which stood to him, would do no less then change the Laws and the Govern∣ment, but especially to quit himself of all Parlia∣ments, which throughout most Raigns have been so cross and oppo∣site to their kings; and so to any Act of Oblivion after a Conquest obtained, and that then a general pardon should have been granted to all sides; the Judge was out of his sphear and pratled like a Parrot; for admit that the king should so much over∣shute himself, as to grant an Act of Oblivion,

in what a condition should we of the Souldie∣ry be? what then could we expect in re∣ward of our service, (which for his late Majesties sake and the Kings that now is, or shall be in spight of the Devil) have haz∣zarded our lives and fortunes? Sure I am, my late Master, not onely promised me, but granted to divers of us his Commanders, such and such Parliament mens estates; yea, and o•• Delinquents, both Lands and Goods; and you may be sure, more he would have given had he obtained his ends, then all of you are aware of; and I doubt not, but that his Royal Successor in good time will do the same as his Father intended, so soon as he comes to be invested with the Septer; other∣wise, he would be the most ungrateful Prince, most deficient and wanting to him∣self, that ever was in the world? Nay, rea∣son perswades me Patriotus to concur with your opinion, as touching this treacherous City of London, from whence the Parliament in the very beginning of the War had their only assistance, and were first enabled to wage War with their King, which I hope his now Majestie will never forget, whensoever he comes to be Enthroned, and then I doubt not, but to have a good shane of the

Citizens money, Gold Chains, Rings, Plate, Jewels, Silks, Satins, Velvets, and that in plentiful measure, since I have taken special notice that they bequeathed not all their Riches to the Parliament; some I am sure, and that good store, are left for such as better deserves them, then such Mecanicks as knew not how otherwise to use their goods, then to the de∣struction of his Majesty and the Kingdoms detriment.

Patri.

Colonel, I profess I am bound to honour you, for that you have candidly and like your self spoken the truth, and what in reason (in such a case) would befall the City, not onely in the total plunder there∣of, which will be much, with the least to satis∣fie such a multitude, both of Natives and Strangers; neither can it sink into my un∣derstanding, that the ransacking of the City will be the worst that may befall it; such an implacable hatred do you of the old Cavalry in general bear towards the Citizens, that if God ave••t it not, in all probability the whole City will run the same fortune with Sagun∣tum in Spain, Carthage in Africa, and Jeru∣salem in Asia, and this fate the Cavaleers themselves have often in my hearing wisht unto it.

Neut.

Gentlemen, your divinations seem strange to me, and they very much trouble my cogitations to hear you talk in such hor∣rid language; I hope you believe the King of Scots to be a Christian, and not that he will destroy himself, which will be as good as done, whensoever so great and oppulent a City becomes ruined, which is the key of the Kingdom, and from whence issues the greatest Revenue and Income the Kings of England have ever received by Customs and Imposts from the Merchants; but more especially, since he cannot be ignorant that he hath within this City a world of loyal Subjects, (as I my self for one) which never bore arms against his Father, nor voluntarily contributed to the Parliament one groat, otherwise then needs he must whom the Devil drives; therefore I doubt not, how∣ever the game goes, he will remember his friends, and distinguish them from his foes.

Patri.

Excellently well infer'd Neutralis, it seems then you conceive your self safe and sure, for that in all the late Wars you have carried your self in a neutral way, & according to the old adage, bene vivit qui bene la∣tuit, he fares best that keeps himself close and out of the scuffle. But suppose the King after his Victory and march, comes to

be possest of the City, accompanied (as that you may believe) with four or five several Nations, can you imagine that so numerous an Army attending his person, will or can Quarter elswhere then in the City, and when they are there, think you not but that the Souldier will have a minde to the business, viz, to take up their pay out of the ransacking of the Citi∣zens, and that without any distinction of persons? haply you con∣ceive that the King out of his Grace and good will towards his friends, will cause a mark, or some cross to be set up at their doors, whereby to difference his loyal Sub∣jects from those which assisted the Parlia∣ment, and took up Arms against him and his Father. No Neutralis, let not such a Chi∣maera enter in your thoughts, when you shall finde your imagined cross to be no other then in so promiscuous a plundring, that your self or any others of your mode shall escape scot-free, or that whensoever the Souldierie falls to riffling, think you, any of them will be so nice and mannerly, as to for∣bear any that lies in the way of their fury, or that in such a confusion, the King himself (were he willing) can stay them, which a∣fore-hand are prompted to enr••ch them∣selves

with a booty, which lies so readily be∣fore them, or that the Souldier will be so modest as to omit so fair an opportunity, and suffer the Citizens to convey their cash and commoditities out of the way of their needy, and greedy clutches: Let me I beseech you di∣spute this case a little farther with you, for rest assured, that not onely those which had a hand in his Fathers death, (whom long since he hath doom'd to death and confiscation by his own D••clarations) but even all those which assi••ted the Parliament, or stood neu∣tral, will necessarily sall into the number of plundred persons, yea all such as at the begin∣ing of the War took up Arms, and were listed under the Earl of Essex (which indeed were the first that broke the Ice, and made the way open to the new Model under the Lord Fairfax, and the now Lord General Cromwel;) Do you think that any of those of the first establishment, which laid down Arms when the Lord General Essex layd down his Commission, divers of which, either before or after have been chosen Par∣liament Members: and were known to be bold speakers in the behalf of the late Kings re-admission to the Kingly Government, will or can escape? If you conceive they will, your imagination is vain and reasonless, since it stands not with reason of State, or

the Kings necessities to lose the least grist that otherwise may come to his wanting Mill: Moreover, you may be sure on't, that in order to all the premised plundrings and confiscations, you shall finde all rich men, or so accounted, will be cal'd to an after recko∣ning, and holes pickt in their coats (of what party soever they have been) to the end to supply the Kings great debts and urgent ne∣cessities; for who knows not, but that he hath borrowed much, and yet wants more then can well be imagined, and that having the sword in his hand, he will and must have money wheresoever it is to be had; and then believe it, the next bout will be a strict inquisition, whom they are or have been, which have taken the old Covenant, and the new Engagement, or have bought any of the Crown-Land;, or goods of the late Kings, the Bishops & Delin∣quents estates; and in order to this pro∣gress, a rigorous inquiry will of cou••se fall in, who they are which the Parliament hath employed, as actors and inst••uments for the promoting of their designs, whether in the City or elsewhere in the Country; neither may you doubt on'c, but that all the Judges, Serjeants at Law, Officers, Clerks of the Crown and Chancery, Sheriffs, Justices

of peace, Commissioners, Committees, with all other inferior Clerks and Officers, whom the Parliament have employed throughout the Nation, acting by, and under their power, will by degrees be fetcht over and enforc't to come off with greater Fines then possibly they are able to bear, and this (in part) was put in practise by the late Kings Commissions thoughout all his Quarters, and wheresoever his Armies had prevalence, when he resided at Oxford and elswhere; and enough there will be, which will not fail to instruct and inform this King, that all the riches of the Land, (saved from the spoyl of his Father) will not be sufficient to make him satisfaction for the infinite losses which the Crown hath sustained since the beginning of the late War, and to recom∣pence such as have suffered by taking his part.

Thraso.

Signiour Patriotus, dam me, if all that you have now said be not Oracles; and the King ought not, or can in honour do less then that which with well measured reason you have declared, and in case he doth it not to a hairs breadth, I shall take him not to be so wise as he should be; for in confirmation of your opinion, Ile tell you a story, and 'tis a true one, on my life, and the reputation of a Souldier, that all of us at

Oxford concluded that after the destruction of the Parliament, the King un∣doubtedly was resolved both to alter the Laws and change the Government, hang all the Parliament men at Westminster for high Treason, and then banish all the Puritans in England; and next the de∣sign was, to take the same cou••se with the Presbyterians of Scotland, (as the greatest Enemies to Monarchy and Episcopacy in the World;) and if ever the King comes to be Master, and in the way, wherein I doubt not but he shall be with the sword in his hand, and we of the Cavalry at his heels, if he hangs not ten thousand of these Puritans, Independants and Presbyterians, I shall for ever hereafter judge him uncapable of the managery of any other Scepter, then that of a sweetch or an hon••st riding rod; and be confident Gen••lemen of the truth of this Story, in confirmation whereof I remember, that my Master commissioned the chief Justice Heath, the Atturney Harbert, with divers more of our Lawyers at Oxford, to go in their Circuits (as I remember they cal'd their Commissions of Oyer and Terminer) with Authority to hang all those (as they

well deserved) of the Parliaments party, but a pox take them, they were so much afore∣hand with us of his Majesties party, that the King was compeld to retract his Commissions, for saving of such of his own party, then in the Parliaments cu∣stody; though one Francklin, whom I took prisoner at Marleborough, and one Sir Hugh Owins, Bur∣gess of Haverford-West, both Parliament Members; the first whereof indeed dyed in prison at Oxford before his Tryal, but as to the other, I well remember he was design'd by the King himself to be tryed in his own Country, and for High Treason; however, as afterward I heard, he escaped the halter, but no otherwise then for the reasons before told you; moreover, I am confident, that if his Majesty that now is comes once to ride on the fore-horse, he will not fail to make sure work with all Parlia∣ments, and that neither him∣self or Successors shall stand in fear to be farther con∣trouled by them, or made slaves to their Subjects.

Prel.

Gentlemen, you have all spoken according to your fancies and affections; sure I am, 'tis very fit that restitution should

be made, where estates have been been injuriously taken from the right Owners, and services rewarded by him for whose use and benefit they were performed; and 'tis Divinity, That the Labourer is worthy of his hire: but in case the King cannot come to his own other∣wise then by the sword, I say, that such as shall assist and enable him to obtain that which no man can deny to be rightsully his own, ought in all equity to be recompenc't by some means or other, for as the present condition of the King now stands, I see no other means left him, but by seisure of the Parliaments estates, and plunder of the City, from whom my late innocent Master re∣ceived his bane, and the Parliament the means both to furnish and maintain an Army against him at an instant.

Patri.

Pardon me good Doctor, since I perceive you somewhat mistake me, for I say not, that in case the King comes in by the sword, he then ought to ransack the City, but that of necessity he will be compel'd to do it, otherwise the Souldiers will of courle do it of themselves; since 'tis well known to be the design of the Royal party both at home and abroad, to be revenged on the Citizens whensoever opportunity serves them; for 'tis confest on all hands, that in the beginning of the War, they voluntarily

came in with their moneys, jewels, and plate, and trusted it on the publick Faith, without which, on an instant the Parliament could not possibly raise and pay such an Army as they did; and there is no doubt on't, that in case the King shall make scruple to plunder the City, yet am I confident he shall be sufficient∣ly prest and invited to do it, or at least to impose such a ransome on it, as the Citizens shall never be able to undergo; but God forbid either of them should be put in exe∣cution.

Thraso.

Now Patriotus, I perceive your meaning, but what you would not should be put in execution, rest assured, If I can help it on, it shall not be left undone; and I farther say, that in case any such oppor∣tunity shall be offered, God forbid it should be omitted.

Neut.

And I am glad, Colonel, I know your good meaning towards the City, but I hope God will so provide for us (as hitherto he hath done) that as yet we have not tasted of those cruelties which you of the Kings party have committed in several parts of the Land, whereby you have made the Kings memory odious to the present times and future; so I doubt not but the same God will preserve and defend us from your malice: But I beseech you Patriotus, may

there not some way or other be thought upon to admit of his Majesty (who now is) on safe and honourable terms, and such as may sute with the security of the Na∣tion?

Patri.

Surely, in my poor judgement, as the late King, and present Pretender hath handled the matter, there are no hopes left to any of that Family, by a peaceable way to re∣invest themselves with the Regal Digni∣ty, but onely that of the sword, and then I have already told you in plain English, what in all probability will be the sad issues; either continual attempts made on the present power by the Pretender, or a perpetual con∣tinuation of war, so long as any of the Family and dissendants of King James remain alive; who to speak the truth, lead the way to all our miseries and concussions both in the Church and State, and his Successor pursuing his principles, what through his own inclinations to absolute Soveraignty, the Queens Mother and her Daughters Councels, furthered by the Bishops and other corrupt instruments, so brought it about, both to his own ruine, and the dis-inheriting of the present Pretender; so fatal a thing it is,

when Princes will be more then of right they should be, and will not remember that they are no otherwise to govern their peo∣ple committed to their tuition, but by the same Rules, Laws, and con∣ditions, as at their first in∣gress they received their Crowns on Oath; and when the Grand father and Son shall forget their own Engagements, and recede from their own principles, viz. that if Kings would but consider that they are ordained of God for the good and benefit of their people, and not their Subjects destinated to be governed by their own will and plea∣sures, they should then never stray out of the right Orbe of Government: More∣over 'tis most true, that the Grandchild and present Pretender, neither in the beginning of the wars nor since, took the right way to gain the love and acceptance of the Par∣liament and people, but in his open pur∣luance of hostility both by Sea and Land incensed them, and made himself utterly un∣capable of acceptance.

Prel.

For Gods love, What would you that the poor innocent Prince should have done on the massacre of his Father, and when all of his undeniable rights, (divolved on

him) were taken from him, and no means left him whereby to eat bread, otherwise then to beg or borrow it, and you know he cannot (Camelion-like) live by the ayr.

Patri.

Doctor, 'tis of too transcendent a nature for me to direct Princes dispossest, or rather forfeiting of their Patrimonies by Tyranny, what course to take for their re∣covery; but you cannot forget how un∣happily he was set on and engaged in his Fathers quarrel, which had he not been, but in such a contest born himself in a neutral way, or sate still as his cousin the Count Palatine did, I cannot disce•••• any reason why the Parliament should have excluded him, but rather admitted him, as the States formerly did Edward the Third after his Fathers deposition; but alass, he was so much, & so far interessed in the quarrel, both in his Fathers life time; and more unhappily since shewed himself the Son of that Father, from whom he received all those destructive principles of Tyranny, which have ut∣terly undone all those of our English Princes that pursued them, as the in∣stances of King John, Edward, and Richard the Second, manifestly demonstrates; some of his Commissions issued out in his Fathers

life time whilst he was a Prisoner I have heard of, which shews him not to be over∣indulgent towards Parliaments; but to this, doubtless an utter Enemy, and to speak the truth, he took not the right way to win the hearts of the people, since 'tis evident, that he hath granted sundry Commissions, to rob and spoyl the Merchants at Sea, viz. to his cousin Rupert and his brother Maurice, as his Father not long before Commissioned both the said Princes to spoyl and plunder the poor people by Land; more may be al∣leaged, which shall rather be concealed then ript up by me; onely in a word more to you Colonel, and all of your party, whom I could wish to look about you, and bethink your selves of the sad issues, which (in such a change as we have presupposed) will ne∣cessarily befal your selves and posterity; hap∣pily the King during his own time, and to some few of you may carry a favourable re∣spect, but that his Successors or himself in∣tend to bestow Charters of Immunities upon you all, and intail them on your Heirs-males, is a very vain and idle imagination; for after a Conquest, and not unlikely within a Quar∣ters time of a Century, it will of course fall out as it did with Jacobs Posterity upon the decease of Pharoah, when his Successor would not so much as look upon, or know

Joseph, but his whole rase and Posterity fell altogether into the common-shore of bon∣dage and Slavery; And yet, such is your infatuation like the Israelites, which cryed for a King, and soon after would have been quit of him, but God told them he would not hear them; and indeed few there are amongst us all that judge aright, or know our own happiness and freedom in this present change of the Government.

Neut.

Patriotus, Give me leave in a word or two to interpose; It appears to me, as by your discouse I have collected, that our sub∣mission to the present power of some special selected Gentry, without King and the late priviledged Lords, (wh••ch I confess were wont to do what they listed) will be more safe, honourable, and profitable for the people, notwithstanding our Contributi∣ons, then such as necessarily will befal us, should the excluded King come in by force of Arms; I profess in such a case, I know not which side to take with safety; advise me to the best, and I'le thank you.

Patri.

Neutralis, I perceive you to be a crafty fox; you are best able to judge what party to incline to; I leave you to your own choyce, whether to side with the present power (in case of an invasion) or to assist the Scotch King; for I finde 'tis your own

safety, not the common good, that you aym at; onely this, take heed that reason do not invade you before it perswades you, though it be already both sufficiently inti∣mated and proved, that your adherence to the present establishment will be your best course, yea, on any Invasion of the Scotch King, to fight for your liberty, and not sit still as you say you have done.

Prel.

Patriotus, In all our conference hi∣thereto, we have omitted the principal verb which governs the sentence, and that is, concerning the late Parliaments sitting at Westminster, acting according to their own wils and pleasures; what they Vote, was without any more adoe Enacted for Law, as a Rule to the universal Nation; right or wrong, it must be obeyed; Now whether 160 at most, of 560 at least, which formerly sate in both houses could be a Parliament, is the Quere. I pray resolve me in this point; for in Law, or in any rational mans judgement, a Parliament they could not be, but rather an usur∣patious and despotical number backt by an Army; therefore I say, speak your own conscience, what you conceive them to have been, without King, Lords, Bishops, and the major part of the Commons, all summo∣ned

by the Kings Writ, and chosen by their several Countries, and violently pul'd out of the house by the Souldiers for dissenting to the Votes of no more addresses, the re∣mainder being so few, that in any reason they could not so much as pretend to be a Parlia∣ment, much less the Representative of the universal people; yet had they the confidence that whatsoever they Enacted, to assume it to be done in the name of the Commons of England, which is one of the strangest pieces of Non-sence that ever was heard of in the World; you may call to minde what became of those thirty Tyrants at Athens; the parallel is not at a very wide distance; therefore before we depart, I beseech you deliver your opinion for the better satisfacti∣on of my conscience, and tell me how it came to pass that none or very few of the Lords sate there with the Commons, which till of later times, never were admitted to sit with them, neither cal'd to sit by them; for all our ancient Parliaments were onely com∣posed of King, Bishops, Abbots, Earls and Barons, without the scum of the Vulgar.

Patri.

Doctor, 'tis most true, that upon the first view, that remnant which so lately sate at Westminster, in most mens understanding, seemed to be no other then an usurped

power, and these back't by the Souldier; but when we come to the Examination of their mutilation, and how their number came to be diminished you will be of another minde; for as the Author of the Kings Life and Raign exactly lays it down, and resolves this doubt, and tells you by whom it was first lamed and disordered, this we all know, that it was at first legally summoned by the Kings Writ, with Lords, Bishops, and Commons, which by your favour are not the scum of the people, but as good Gentlemen as any of the Lords; but as afterwards it fell out by the Kings practises and artifices, it was first lessned in both Houses, near to a moity, to make up his Mungril Parliament at Oxford; and yet the King himself and that Conven∣ticle, both calls them and acknowledges these at Westminster to be a Parliament, though much against his will; and 'tis a plain case, that since the exclusion of another par∣ty by the Souldier, that re∣mainder or relick was still the Parliament, and stood upon the same feet, as 'twas first summoned 3 Nov. 1640. with their full number; and that piece of a Parliament left as you call them, acted by the same power; so that you must always take Powers in their present being, not as

they have been, when inforc't from their old presidents and usages, which I finde not to have been always one and of the same form, but varied in all Ages, according to the Re∣volutions of times and accidents; for without all question, that Magnum Consilium or Commune Consilium, as Caesar calls it, of the old Britons, was not al∣together of the self-same form with the Witenagomots of the Saxons, neither those with the Parliaments as they were after called on the coming in of the Normans; and since the Conquest, we finde them very much to vary; as for instance, Quarto con∣questoris, Rex fecit summon••ri per universos consulatus An∣glos nobiles, & sapientes, & sua lege eruditos, ut eorum jura & consuetudines ab ipsis audiret: the fourth year of William the Conqueror, the King caused to be summoned out of every Country of Eng∣land all the Nobility, the

wise men, and all such as were Learned in the Laws, to the end that he might hear and understand, what their Laws and customs were. Hoved, lib. de Litchfield; Moreover, Hen. 1. apud fontem Clericorum fecit sum∣moneri omnes Arch-Epis. Episcopos, Abbates, omnes nobiles Angliae, & sapientes, & omnes incolas Regni; The King caused a summons go Clerkenwel, of all the Arch-bishops, Bishops, Abbots, all the Nobles, Wise men, and all the Inhabitants, or as I conceive, by (Incolas) the chief dwellers in the Kingdom, which seems to be a multitudinous Aslembly. Math. Paris, Edm. de Loud. Again, Hov. 2. decimo Reg. praesentibus Arch-Epis. Episcopis, Abbattibus, Prio. Comitibus & proceribus Regni. Math Paris: But Hoveden & Fitz-Steven, make mention of Clerus & Populus, the Clergy and People to be then assembled; the tenth of Henry the Second being pre∣sent the Arch-bishops, Bishops, Abbots, Priors, Earls and Barons, together with the Clergy and people. Paris calls this Assembly Generale Consilium, a General Councel; Now amongst many other presidents, I shall only instance in one or two more, viz. Sexto Ioban. at Oxford, Communi consensu Arch-Epis. Episcoporum, Comitum, Baronum, & omnium fidelium nostrorum Angliae; by the common consent of Arch-bishops, Bishops,

Earls, Barons, & all our faithful men of Eng∣land, Parl. Rot. pat. 5. & there are some presi∣dents which only mention Barones & libe∣ros bomines totius Regni, onely the Barons and all the free-men of the Realm; tempore Henrici 3. and another of this reign, and before the Grant of the great Charter, hath it, Convocatum est Londoniis, praesidente Arch-Epis. cum toto Clero & tota Sect a Laical••: An Assembly at London, the Arch-bishops being President with all their Clergy and all the Laicks, without any mention of Earls, Ba∣rons, or Bishops. Auth. Eulog. which seems to be a strange kinde of Parliament; so that in an hundred more of Presidents which may be instanced, it will manifestly appear, that our antient Parliaments though they are acknowledged for a National meeting, made and un-made Laws according to the vicissi∣tude of times; yet were they not always of one constant and set form, though tending to no other, and the self-same end (salus populi) the safety and conservation of the people, by their Enacting such Laws as then were thought fit to be established for the common welfare of the Nation, to which all our Laws and Statutes in the same words have special reference, though, 'tis confest in ancient times, often varied in the form, but never from the end; And 'tis very observable

that neither the ancient summons to our Par∣liaments were always of one stamp, but varied in most our Kings Raigns; sure we are, that last of the kings was much different from those of old, which ever∣more had in them inserted, viz. ad tractan∣dum, consulendum & ordinandum cum nobis, &c. the principle Gerund (Ordinandum) being purposely omitted, least it might in∣timate a greater power in the Commons to act by, then the King was willing they should have; just in the same manner as the Archbishop curtald the most material clause of the Kings Coronation Oath, that so he might assume to himself a greater power then of right belonged unto him; but this is a subject which to dispute to the full, would take up more time then we can at pre∣sent well spare; onely in a word, that the Commons sate not in our ancient Parlia∣ments, and that now they onely sit there, where the King and Lords sate alone with∣out them; Truly Doctor, I retract not from that which I have often said, viz. that these late times have produced such Monsters of men, such Traytors and shameless Vipers that have endevoured to blot out of memory those ancient Rights and Liberties which the

Natives have for so many hundred years en∣joyed, and to devour the mother that bare them, most unnaturally attempting to enslave themselves and their Posterity: I shall par∣ticularly name some of them. Judge Jenkins, and another, under the name of Mr Prynne, which have avouch∣ed that the Commons were not summoned or sate in our ancient Parlia∣ments: which is a most imputent lye and false assertion, as it evidently appears by those old authentick Authorities even now recited; and indeed, I have spent many an hour in a diligent search into Antiquities, to finde out the time when our late form of King Lords, and Bishops, with the Commons, all call'd by Writ from their respective Burroughs, had its beginning; though it may be enough, to satisfie rational men, that it hath been at least of 500 years standing if not 600, as by Mr Lambert and many other better Authors, and far better seen in the Laws, then that false Judge Jenkins ever was it manifest∣ly appears. Doctor, to put a period to this particular, let me tell you, for your own and the better satisfaction of thousands more of your opinion, that new powers will have new Laws, new Forms; and we of the people must and ought to obey them or smart for

our disobedience; and so would the King have had, (you should have found it too true) had he prevailed.

Prel.

I confess indeed, you have given me full satisfaction, as well to my first que∣stion, Whether that relick of the late Parli∣ament was a legal Parliament, as to my last concerning the sitting of the Commons in our Antient Parliament; but what say you to this new form, that meerly is summoned by the power of the Souldiery, and almost half Souldiers that now sit at Westminster? by what right of a legal Election do they sit as a Parliament? for by the Law and right of the people they were to have made choyce of their own Representative?

Patri.

By the right of the sword, which in all Ages hath been the original foundation of all Laws and Powers; and where that weapon hath predominance, we must not altogether insist upon Law; for silent leges inter arma, but look upon Gods Providence with the effects which this power may produce in the issue for the good of the universal Nation, since that after the States Army (by Gods great bles∣sing) had no sooner freed the people from farther bloodshed and rapine, the late Par∣liament being at ease and not playing their parts so dexterously as they might have done,

but minding their own interests more then that of the publick, 'twas thought fit by the Councel of war, to put a period to their fruitless sitting, as formerly they did to the Kings exorbitant Government, and for his often breaches of Faith with God, and his trust with the whole Nation, over whom he was appointed to rule by the Laws of the Land, and not by his own will and pleasure; for bonus pastor ponit vitam pro ovibus, the good Shepherd lays down his life for his sheep, he never flayes or destroys them.

Thraso.

I hope Sir, you cannot say (as your intimation imports) the King my late blessed Master was ever known to flay his Subjects you'l never leave the Round-head lyes and slanders.

Patri.

No Sir, I do not positively say so, or that the King was guilty of pulling his Subjects skins over their heads, as S. Bar∣tholmew is reported to have been served by his cruel Persecutors; but by your favor, since you are so captious and uncivil to asperse me with lying and slandring, as that you can do when you please on innocent children, and then make them good with vol∣leys of dam-mees, & other fearful Oathes and imprecations, 'tis well known that before the king levied war against the best Subjects

he had, some have had their ears cut off by the roots, their bodies whipt all over in gore blood, and their fore-heads branded with hot Irons, no man knows well for what, more then to please the great Arch-Prelate, who would have it so; and the Lords of the Star-Chamber, and others of the High Inquisition, could do no less or durst do no other then vote as he would have them; and as sure it is, that you and your Complices under the Kings Commissions, kill'd, plundered and shaved the poor innocent people wheresoever you march'c or quartered, which in many places of the Land you perpetrated without mercy; so that by your leave, the King himself was the sole Author and cause of all the blood and miseries that besell the three Nations, as himself sometimes hath confest; but good Sir, enough of this; for it grows late, and a time we must have to retreat, as you my good Colonel, have had a time to rob, plun∣der, and spoyl the poor people, though I be∣lieve, you have not purchased any great store of Lands with the remains of your stoln goods; but in case you have any store left you, there are yet very good peny-worths to be had of Delinquents estates, and you may likewise buy wood and timber if you have any use for it, if not, that you will keep it by you, for some other mischievous pur∣poses,

and not live quietly and peaceably un∣der the present Government, the State you may be sure on't, will finde out a parcel that may serve your turn.

Neut.

Colonel, I have often told you, that he would be too hard for you at this kinde of fencing; yet you'l take no warning; do you not understand Patriotus his meaning, that the State will soon finde out a parcel of Timber for you, if you stir and foment more mischief; you may guess at his meaning; if not, take it into your second consideration, that there is an intent of erecting a new Court of Justice, which will tell us all our fortunes, in case any of us should be over∣busie and plot new insurrections.

Thraso.

A pox of him, and the Court of Justice to boot, that ever I saw or heard of either of them; I pree-thee Doctor, suffer not this round-headed-fellow thus to go away with the Bucklers, and to send us away like mutes, and with a flie in our ears.

Prel.

Colonel, to deal plainly, your langnage is insufferable; at our last confe∣rence you gave the first offence; and now again, you are at your old lock; for more boldly and uncivilly yon durst not have spoken, when you were in the head of the greatest Army the King ever had; the truth is,

you too much forget your self, and think not where you are, and to whom you speak; should I judge of most that the Gentleman hath said, I should be a Witness my self, that he hath spoken truth, and that with well measured Reason; but I beseech you Patrio∣tus pardon the Colonels incivility, and be pleas'd to satisfie me in some particulars, which I suppose you may do in a few minutes of time; then I shall both thank you and wish you a good night, and at your better lea∣sure, shall not fail to give you a friendly vi∣sit; Sir, in brief, King John was a known Tyrant, an Usurper, and a murtherer of his own Brothers children, an Enemy to the Clergy, and the greatest depopulator of the Kingdom that ever before it had; and yet the States and Nobility forget all his Tyrannies & misdeeds, and after his poyson∣ing at Swinsteed, admitted of his inno∣cent young Son, after call'd by the name of Henry the third, and soon quitted the Land of Lewis the Dolphin of France, whom before they had call'd in to their assistance, and to whom most of the great Lords had sworn fealty; In like manner the Parliament, after the deposiog of Edward the second for his Tyranny, made choyce of his young Son Edward the third, who proved a very gal∣land Prince; likewise on the Parliaments

deposing of Richard of Burdeaux, for his mis∣government, the State made choyse of his cousin-german Henry of Bulling-brook, who though not the next in blood, and conse∣quently an Usurper as to the right of Suc∣cession, yet was he made King by consent of the Parliament, and he approved himself a very wise and politick Prince; whence it appears that the Parliaments and Nobility of those times had ever an eye on the next Suc∣cessor, or to such a one of the blood-Royal, as in their judgements they conceived to be most capable and fit to undertake the kingly Government, as it may be instanced in their Election of Steven Earl of Bulloyn, in the absence of Maude the Empress next in blood; and since that, of Henry of Richmon, after the killing of that Tyrant Richard of Glocester; on these premises I beseech you, a little extend your patience, and tell me what you conceive to have been the reasons, that the late Parliament not only took away the Kings life by a new president, and under colour of a legal hearing, to the great regret of the major part of the Nation, but have re∣rejected the young Prince of mature years, hopeful and able to govern, together with the Duke of York and Glocester, with all the discendents of King James, and have changed the Royal Government into a Common-wealth,

have sold all the Lands, Honours, Mannors, and Revenues, anciently by right belonging to the Crown, as the proper Inhe∣ritance of the Kings of England; Now Sir, By what Law of God, man, or reason of State, they have attempted on so strange an enterprise, passes my understanding; es∣pecially the exclusion of the poor innocent Princes, goes directly against my conscience; yet if you please, I shall willing hear what you can say, for my better satis∣faction.

Patri.

Doctor, your questions necessarily will require a long search into the reasons wherefore the Parliament enterprized on so high a concernment; yet in brief, I shall tell you what hath been told me, and by some of the late Members on the same Queres you have propounded: First, they say, that on consideration of the Kings seldom calling, and often dissolving of such Parliaments as he summoned without their due effects, and that for ten years together he refused to summon any, but ruled (during so long an intermissi∣on) at will and pleasure, whereby the com∣mon interest and liberties of the people were so much invaded, and so many grievances and oppressions crept both into the Church and State, that when this late Parliament was (through the extremity of his wants) call'd,

the Assembly was to seek where to begin to rectifie and repair the decays of the Com∣monwealth, which through his own mis∣government, the prodigaltie and dissolute∣ness of the Court and Clergy had befallen the universal Nation, which although he wholly then left to their rectification, yet immediately thereupon he not onely went from his word, and falsified his promise, but by the continuance of innumerable practises, and his uttermost endevors, he sought nothing more then to obstruct their Reformation, ruine the Parliament, and put all the King∣dom into consusion, by a most bloody and destructive war; which the Assembly per∣ceiving, and that his intent in pursuing his designs full six years together, and so long as he was able, aimed at the utter overthrow of the Laws, and envassaladge of the people, and that he had entailed this quarrel on his Son and his Heirs-males in perpetuum; how im∣possible then it was for the Parliament to settle a firm peace throughout the three Kingdoms, by re-admitting the King full fraught, (though a prisoner) with his wont∣ed Principles and designs, or to take in any of his Posterity (afore-hand indoctrinated, in their Fathers frauds and subtilties) might amaze the wisest of men, even Salomon him∣self, to finde out any other way how to

free the Nation from pe••petual Tyranny and bloodshed, but by cutting off both the Father and Son which were so deeply in∣teressed in the controversie; and to make the same use of their victories for the future security and indemnity of the people, as the King himself intended to do in the behalf of himself and his Successor, had the fortune of a Conquest befallen him; thus much in ge∣neral, as to the grounds of the Parliaments resolution of cutting off the King and his Posterity; as to the particular reasons, I pray take them in their order.

1. They alledge, that they had no choyce left them whereby to save the Nation from utter ruine, but were by the Law of neces∣sity inforc't upon them by the King himself and of his own seeking both to cut off him and exclude his Post••rity.

2. That having had so long patience, and taken such infinite pains during all the wars, (after he had lost all and was a Prisoner,) to satisfie him from time to time, in what possibly they could in all things questionable between them, and on all his exceptions to reason the case all along with him in their several Answers and Replies to his Papers, Expresses, and Protestations, attested before God and his Holy Angels, pretending still how really he meant, when by long and sad

experience, they found all his pretences fraudulent; yet could they never satisfie him with any Arguments either of Law or Rea∣son, but that his own Reason, his Will, his Honour, his Conscience, must be the onely Directory to the Parliament, theirs of no esteem with him.

3. That notwithstanding their many Addresses and humble Petitions presented unto him (after his causless recess from the Parliament) for his return with honor and profit, with this onely reservation to leave Delinquents to the judgement of his Su∣pream Court, they prevailed not, but he de∣fended them, and was the skreen to most no∣torious Offendors, professing still a willing∣ness to peace and Treaties (onely to get advantages) when he most intended War and Conquest.

4. That such was the obstinacy of his na∣tural inclination (which himself miscalls con∣stancy) from which they found it was im∣possible to disswade him, or yeeld to any (reason never so well measured by them,) but that they must yeeld to his, though ne∣ver so unreasonably prest by himself.

5. That in this wilsull pursuance to ob∣tain his most unjust ends, he incorrigibly per∣sisted to the last, without the least reluctation ••or acknowledgement, that any fault was in

himself (until he was a Prisoner) but ever∣more laid all the blame on the Parlia∣ment.

6. That in this long persistance, he had wearied and beggered all his friends and as∣sistants, at home and abroad, to the desola∣tion of three flourishing Kingdoms, by the continuation of his Hostility, to the de∣struction of a million of poor Innocent souls, without any remorse of so much blood spilt, more then of one man, his wicked Instrument.

7. That when he protested most, and to the height of imprecation, the Parliament at last found by the Testimony of his own Letters under his hand-writing, that he meant nothing less and more contrary, then to his usual Protestations.

8. That neither all the Honors, Mannors, and Lands of the Crown, or his own blood, (without true repentance) could be a suf∣ficient expiation to God, or recompence to his subjects, for the infinite bloodshed, rapines, and dilapidatins made on the Na∣tives of three Kingdoms.

9. That such was his insensibility of blood∣shed, that the many Lords, Gentlemen, and infinite others of inferiour quality (slaughte∣tered in his bloody quarrel) he made no other reckoning of them then this, viz. that

they suffered no more then of duty they were bound to do for their King, which he avouched on the death of the Earl of Northampton.

10. That those unjust pretences which he made, under the notion of his Royal Prero∣gatives, viz. the Militia, power of War, Peace, Leagues, Treaties, Array of the people, his negative Voyce in all Parliaments, par∣doning of Murderers and Fellons condemned by the Laws of the Land, were all at his only disposure, whereas by the known Laws of the Realm, they have been onely entrusted and conferr'd on our Kings by the indul∣gence of the people in their Represen∣tatives, as hereafter shall manifestly appear.

11. That all his Treaties with the Parlia∣ment for peace were persidious, and his Pro∣positions evermore umbrated under ••pecious pretexts, subtilties, subtersuges, and mental reservations, as 'twas evident in that at Colebrook and Ʋxbridge, and more appa∣rent by his own Letters to the Duke of Richmond, viz. Not to for∣get to cajole well the Scots; and by that at Oxford, by Re∣gistring in the Councel-books his calling them a Parliament with mental reservations, though not ex animo so acknowledged,

yet summoned by his own Writs, and often so esteemed and call'd by himself, and ac∣knowledged to be a legal Parliament by his own mungril Conventicle at Ox∣ford.

12 That in all his Declarations and Ex∣presses to the Parliament, he evermore seemed to have a tender regard both towards them and the people, when he onely intended his own interests with the advance of the Soveraignty to absoluteness by the power of the sword, and to convey his designs to his Successors, as in the instance of the Militia, is most perspicuous, when he per∣ceived that the Parliament would no longer trust so dangerous weapons in his hands.

13. That some of his best friends suspected him to be too much vers't in the Florentine Principles, as indoctrinated by a French and Italian party constantly resident in his own Court, and stickled on by the in••usions of the Queen-Mother & the Daughter, both which had gained a great interest, & had chiefest in∣fluence on his Concels; and as'tis well known, was wholy governed as the Queen lifted, and at last, his inclinations so strictly tyed up as that they were not subject to any other

alteration then as she prescribed, which was a Rule to whatsoever he undretook.

14. That he was not wanting to himself (for promoting of his arbitrary designs) to make use of Machiavels principle, Divide & impera, evermore to sow divisions, and to cherish any dissention arising be∣tween the Parliament and their friends, there∣by to ruine them by themselves.

Thus Gentlemen, according to your de∣sires, I have given you an accompt of those Reasons which have been given me, where∣fore the Parliament enterprized on the change of the Government by cutting off the King and his Posterity, the premises be∣ing so true and undenyable, that they satisfied me, and prevailed so sar on my belief, that I conceive the Parliament could not other∣wise possibly have secured the Nation from farther ruine; as also that their resolutions therein were directed by the special hand of God, considered together with the and great constant charge incident to Monarchy, the often pressures, and oppressions of the sub∣ject through the Tyranny, ambition, and prodigalitie of most of our Kings, the two last having beggered and impoverished them most of all others, on which considerations, the Parliament in reason of State, and as the state of the controyersie then was between

them and the King, they found it much bet∣ter to quit themselves and the people of Regal Government, and to change it into a Republick, as a more safe and cheaper Government, rather then any longer to hazard the common liberty on the Rule of any one Prince whatsoever; especially not to trust those of the Sotch Nation; all our Histories and the Parliaments sad experi∣ence having taught them, that of late years, the Soveraignty by the ambition and ar∣tifices of both the late Kings was strain'd and tentered up to so high a pitch, that it would not stoop to a lower power then that of absolutenes.

Now more particularly to answer your Querie as concerning the King of Scots, the two Dukes, with the rest of the late Kings loyns; it seems likewise, that the Parliament knowing them to be the Sons of that father, who had more wasted the Land then all of the Norman Race before him, they had small hopes left them; that any of the same line would be much better, being tu∣tor'd afore-hand by the Father, and at pre∣sent residing in a French Academy, which if admitted to the Government, in all likely∣hood would be no other then the cause of more blood, more charge, trouble, misery and sorrow to the people; very few of our

Kings having given the Nation any great cause to be over-much enamoured with their Governments, but most of the best much re∣pentance, through their Tyrannies and op∣pressions.

Prel.

Sir, I profess, you have given me fuller satisfaction then I could expect; and I believe that you have taken the right measure of the Parliaments foot, with the true rea∣sons wherefore they have not onely cut off the Father, but excluded all his Discendants; onely in the point of their changing the kingly Government into a Republick as more secure and cheaper for the Na∣tion, this is a riddle to me; for la∣mentable experience enforms us, that all the oppressions and grievances of the people, by all, or most of our Kings, and those so much upbraided and caft in the face of the late King, I dare affirm amounts not to the fisth part of the charge and Contributions im∣posed on the Natives by the Parliament; if you grant this for truth, as I presume you cannot gain-say it, doubtless then the State here in being, have brought the people to a very bad market, since 'tis manifest, that what by the Monthly Contributions, the ri∣gorous exactions of the Officers of the Cu∣stoms on all Merchandize, together with the Excise on all we eat or drink, with the free

quartering of the Souldiers in most parts of the Land, are far beyond all the Taxes, Im∣positions and Subsides which the late King imposed or intended to lay on the people, which gives them no great cause to rejoyce and make merry, either for their safety or the cheapness of the exchange; Answer me to this point, and I shall (as the Colonel even now said) give you fair leave to carry away the bucklers, and henceforth acknow∣ledge you for an expert Fencer.

Thraso.

God amercy honest Doctor, in good faith, thou hast now given him a bone to pick that will stick in his teeth; if he an∣swers this to any purpose, he shall not onely carry away the Bucklers, but I shall willingly give him my sword into the bargain, and then dam him for me, that will ever fight one stroke more in the quarrel.

Patri.

Colonel, you and your party have gotten such a habit of swearing, and in such fearful volleys of Oaths, as that had your cause been much better then it was, God could not bless it or give you any good suc∣cess therein: but I beseech you leave your prophanation, and then have patience a while, for you have very good reason to leave fighting, when you are so ready to depart with your weapons; but lay your sword to the stake, and then see what in the end

will become of him; for whatsoever the Do∣ctor hath objected concerning the present impositions, (which are confest to be very heavie on the poor people) yet when you know all, it would have been much better he had said nothing, since I perceive none of you all ever sounded the late Kings depth and what he intended, or took the least measure of his foot; for indeed he was too dark for any of your light to see into his designs; and to tell you more, he was too cun∣ning for any that he employed; though some there are which accounted him for little more then an Iguoramus, but one of the shrewdest ones for his reaches to his own ends, of any Prince of his time: True it is, that the Parliament, though they suspected him at the first sitting down, and before, yet knew not a long time what he had in hand, otherwise then at random, until the discovery of the Juncto, which was the star that guided them to know somewhat more of his de∣signs, then they could clearly discern before; and by degrees (as God would have it) more they came both to know and feel, when a long time after his private Letters were taken at Nasby, wherein more then

enough came to light of his pernicious in∣tents, or was fitting for a King so much courted and beloved of English Nation) to have attempted for their enslaving; a design (as I have said) though long since by some of the more intelligent sort under∣stood, yet till that time never publickly known or visible; the onely bar to the ac∣complishment, was that Bellum Episcopale, the Prelatical was against his Native subjects the Scots, which brought it so about, that the Kings game which was a fair fore-game, became in the end by the Scots resistance and managety, to an after and a lost game; and the truth is, the Scots were too subtile for all the kings Arbitrary Instruments, and understood more of his reaches then happily all of us here shall ever know. Now Do∣ctor, as to your Objections concerning the present Taxes, Excises, Customs and Free-Quarter, I crave leave for a while to lay them aside, to which anon I shall particu∣larly make answer; In the mean time, I think fit to present you with a Preparative, whereby to shew you that all changes and alterations of Government, are and have evermore been accompanied with innumer∣able difficulties and hardships, especially where the sword begets them; & who knows not but that the sword is a very chargeable

weapon, and such charges are most incident to green and new sprung up Governments, and cannot be avoyded, as in this case, and alteration here with us you see cannot pos∣sibly be made good, without a vast expence, which necessarily ought to be defray'd by the people, for whose sakes and conservation of the common freedom, their Trustees the Par∣liament thought fit and best for their future indemnity to adventure on the change of the Government, and then as the Adage speaks it, They which reap the gains ought to indure the pains; and 'tis most true, that although new gotten liberty be a sweet bait, yet it often fals out that the enjoyment thereof brings with it a great deal of sufferance, and yet must it be born with patience in hope of better times, which may give way to the un∣burthering of the sufferers.

And so to your Objections, which I shall answer in their ord••r; and first to the Ex∣cise, wherein I shall shew you the mistake; since it seems you look onely at the present Impositions without minding their causes, which as the postures of affairs now are, were necessitated and insorc't on the Parlia∣ment to levie on the Nation; neither do you look back to those times wherein during the late king and his Fathers raign, there was no cause or a peece of a reason to be given why

any Taxes should have been imprest on the people without their consents in Parliament; yet for your better learning I shall assure you, that the very same House in Broad-Street, wherein the Office of the Excise is erected for the States use, was 20 Moneths at least before the late Parliaments sum∣mons rented by Cottington, and purposely for that use design'd by the King himself, though protracted by reasons of the Scotch troubles: As to the Customs, we all know to what a height they were grown in the late Kings time, to the great regret of the Mar∣chant; but that you may know what far∣ther was much about that time in agitation, there was a private Com∣mission issued out under the Great Seal, wherein twenty eight Lords and Gentlemen were nomi∣nated and Authorized to raise on all the Commodities of the Land, what new Cu∣stoms and Impositions the Commissioners should think sit, which was the highest strain of Arbitrary power, that ever was attempted by any of our Kings.

As to free-Quarter, it is confest to have bin a very g••ievous burthen on the people, not only to pay their Monthly Contributions, but to be for••'t to give the Souldier free-quarter

wheresoever he march't; But to answer you in a word, that grievance hath been a good space since taken away, and the Souldier wheresoever he now Quarters, pays both for horse and mans meat; moreover the States have very much lessned their Forces, onely retaining such numbers of horse and foot as may keep in awe such as you Col∣lonel of the Royal Party, which if not se∣cured, it may happily be more hurtful to the Nation, then the not securing of our out∣works against the ingrateful Dutch, on whom the Malignant party (which are still rotten at the heart) looks upon with a pleasing eye, in hopes so to order their designs, as at last to bring in the Scotch Pretender, though to their own particular ruine, and the gene∣ral destruction of the poor innocent peo∣ple; but in farther answer to your Ob∣jections, suffer me to put you in remem∣brance, what long since, and before the late War began, was projected by the late king, when he was in peace and amity with all the Princes of Europe; you shall finde it most true, that in so great a calm of quietness divers Regiments of Germane horse were designed to be transpotted hither to keep all the Na∣tives in awe and under the whip; and in order to that, the Deputy Straford, in as calm a time of quietness as ever Ireland enjoyed, had

raised there an Army of near ten thousand Papists, which for many Moneths and some years together were there both disciplined, quartered and paid, for the most part at the charge of private men, and such as were averse to his Tyranous courses; and in addi∣tion to those grievances on the Irish, Scotch, and English, the imperious Deputy having taken to farm the Customs of that King∣dom at an excessive under-value, he imposed on all the Commodities of the Land, an in∣credible surplusage above the Rent he payd to the King. Happily you may here ask the Question, to what end such an Army was there raised and quartered on the Irish, and so great Taxes imp••sed on all the Commodi∣ties of that kingdom? I answer, The De∣puty himself tells you the reason, as you may see it in the Juncto; You have an Army (says he to the King) in Ireland to reduce this King∣dom: If you put the Que∣stion farther, Why to reduce this kingdom being in peace; I shall tell you, that Army of foot with the Germane horse were all to be Garrisoned in England on free-quarter, to amuse and keep the people in subjection, whilst the king playd his game for the re∣ducing the Scots, & to the Enslaving of all the three Nations; If again you demand, What

the King would have done with so vast a Treasure as he intended to raise on both Kingdom; the Deputy could have yeelded you a reason and president for this too, viz. to erect Castles and Forts in both Kingdoms, Houses of pleasure, as ca∣pacious as Towns, Parks of as large an extent as whole Parishes, Masks, Friscals, Comedies, Tragedies for the Saboth, Banquets, Junkets, and such-like petu∣lancies, wherewith to please the Queen and the Court Ladies, to gratifie Madam Nurse, her Fidlers and Dancing-Masters; for rest assured, that the King meant not longer to depend on Parliamentary assistance for de∣fraying of the Court expences, neither to be controld for any irregularity he pleased to put in execution; and this (as tenacious as he was) had often dropt from his own mouth; and Cottington could openly say at his own Table 1638, when a Gentleman of honour told him, That the best way for the King to fill his Coffers, would be by the ayds of Parliament; What needs that (replies Cottington?) the King hath other ways in hand to supply his wants without Parliaments: And indeed gentlemen, as it seems, you know not what the King had then in agitation; some what more I shall tell you, that there were certain odd

Papers of the Deputies, which I finde not were in question at his Arrain∣ment; for the Parliament had proof enough wherewith to charge him of his intention to alter the Government; but those Papers in∣timate that the design was laid, that no man was to stir above ten miles from his Habita∣tion without leave and shewing his occasion, and that no man was to be master of his own Train Arms, either for his Domestick use or the Publick defence, but that every Particu∣lars mans Arms were to be deposited in one Magazin, and in one place, throughout all the Countries of England and Wales; nei∣ther was any Houshoulder to be permitted to have the use of so much as a Pitch-forke without special license; such a strange change of Soverainty was not only in hatch∣ing, but in the high way of execution, had it not been put by and obstructed (as already is declared) by the refractory Scot, who marr'd all the Kings work, the Deputies, Arch∣bishops, and Cottingtons endevours to have accomplisht the whole design; but how Al∣mighty God i•• his Justice hath disappointed and disposed of them all, I leave to your se∣cond considerations. Now Doctor, if I have not given you a full Answer to all your Ob∣jections, would my leisure permit my longer

stay, I could give you a little better satisfacti∣on; but for the present I say no more, but examine well the case, as the King (before the Wars began) was carrying on his designs, and at a time when he had no cause at all to attempt as he did, and then take into your more serious consideration the Parliaments case and condition which inforc't them for safeguard of themselves and those that trusted them, to leavie men and money, and since of necessity to Impose Contributions on the the people for support of the common In∣terest, and then you will finde a great dif∣ference between one and the others case; onely for a close of our Conference, and in farther proof of the premises, I beseech you tell me, wherefore the King (at this last Expedition against the Sco••s 1640) Commis∣sioned Cottington Lord-Warden of the Tower, with injunction to see that place well Fortified and man'd, which in obedience to his Majestie in commands was presently put Execution, but with such a refuse of Bank∣rupt Colonels and Souldiers as could not be match't in all the Kingdom, & then to mount near upon twenty great Guns on the White Tower, with their mussels turned against the City; if you cannot tell the the reason, Ile tell it you; That it was

to awe the Citizens, out of fear and jealousie that some one or other insurrection (which the Projectors own guilty consciences sug∣gested to themselves) might fall out during the Kings absence in the North, and to mar the work he had then in design, before it came to maturity to be put in execu∣tion.

Why then and at the very same time, the King should Commission the late Earl of Worcester, a profest Papist (as Cottington was no better) as Lord President of the Welch-Marches, commanding the Earl of Bridge-water a sound Protestant to desert that go∣vernment by Letters under his own hand, which on his examination in Parliament wherefor he waved that command, he produced for his justification, where the reason inserted was for his special service (a proper service if you mark it) Now if you demand, What that service might be, I shall instantly tell you to what purpose, as 'twas then spoken publico consensu; neither ever since denyed, viz. the same Earl being Owner of one of the strongest Castles in those parts, seated amidst the greatest neast of Papists of any one place in the Kingdom, had private Commmission from the King to raise 6000 of them for his M••∣jesties

service, and that service was to convoy the Irish Army on their arival, and to joyn with them when the King pleased to tran∣sport them for mastering all those Western parts, and to be farther employed as his occasions should require; for of such kinde of occasions (though never so needless, unne∣cessary and destructive, through the whole course of his Reign, (as a fate that followed him to the last) he would not be unfurni∣shed.

Why then the late Earl of Arundel, ano∣ther suspected Papist, was at the very same time Commissioned for the North parts; you may safely aver, there was no very good meaning in these exorbitant undertakings; or other reason to be given for their con∣stant pursuance, but that they all tended to enslave the three Nations, and to subject them all under his Arbitrary Power; If any of you here think otherwise, as many thou∣sands there are which will not believe it, I say no more, but that they want wit, but more wisdom to make a right judgement, not of things doubtful and hidden, but of matters visible, and acted on the Theater of the Kingdom: Therefore Gentlemen, be not still blind, neither wilfully stupid, but lay your hands to your hearts, and bethink your selves wherefore the Parliament be-took

themselves to their defensive Arms, and the Scots on the same grounds to side with them; can you imagine for any other reasons, then the conservation of their joynt interest, the freedoms and liberties of both Nations, since all the world can witness, that they were not onely first invaded by the King, but designed together with the English to en∣vassaladge; & that on the same design, he first b••gan the quarrel with the late Parliament, and therefore (as 'tis aforetold you) they could not in any reason or with safety of the people trust a perfidious Prince any longer with the Government, or admit of any more Kings: but in prevention of worse evils, which in all probability would happen to the prejudice of the universal Nation, to alter the Government, as now you see it establi∣shed in peace, and in hopes that in short time it may prove much better, safer, and less burthensom to the people then the Re∣giment hath been, which you may be sure o'nt would have been much worse, had the Kings designs prospered and taken effect, whether we look back on all the Motions of his Government before the Wars, or for∣ward on that which had he been Victor, would necessarily have befallen the Nation; as to that, God knows, he came very near the accomplishment: But all of you may evi∣dently

see throughout the pursute, that Al∣mighty God did not, neither could he give a blessing to his bloody designs, and that a most fearful fare hath befallen the Prose∣cutor and his Fathers house, together with most of his Assistants in that work of dark∣ness for their bloody and ambitions affectati∣ons in opposition to Gods Law, the Laws of the Land, and that of Natures birth-right; so that on a right understanding, you which are so much devoted and besotted to magni∣fie and adore a Tyrant, cut off as well by the hand of Gods justice as mans, have rather cause with thankfulness to adore his infinite Providence in taking him away, & likewise to magnifie the Parliament as the instrument or∣dain'd of God for the preservation of your li∣bertie, & the common interest of the Nations, much rather then to grutch and repine against the present settlement, rail and storm against those Magistrates whom God in his great mercy hath set over us, under whom, he that will may live quietly and contentedly; as to such as will not, I leave them to their fortune; and so Gentlemen, for this time I take my leave.

Thra.

I vow Patriotus, I never till now understood so much of the Kings intentions; I could wish with all my heart, I had known

his minde twelve years since; Sure I am, he deceiv'd me, and a thousand more of us, with as fair words and plausible Protestati∣ons as ever could come from a Christian; but now I perceive your infallible proofs, and many of them as I well remember of his own hand-writing, and of my own know∣ledge, that all is not gold that glisters; and I protest on the reputatio of a Souldier, I now begin to have a better opinion of the Parliaments cause then hitherto I have had.

Patri.

Good Colonel, I have not the command of your opinion; I leave you to your own election to believe and judge as you shall see cause; onely as you wish you had known the Kings minde sooner, I wish he had known himself rather; for this nosce te∣ipsum, the knowledge of our selves is the best piece of Philosophy that any of us can pos∣sibly learn; and as to his fair and plausible language, whereby to attract to himself friends and assistants, I shall tell you some∣what, which I believe you took no notice of; for you were deceived in the King who had such a faculty of his own, that hereto∣fore you could not say he was ever known to be over-cheap to any whom he found not fit and serviceable for that purpose, to which

he would employ him; but on the be∣ginning of the wars the case was altred; for then it stood him upon to be more then ordinarily affable to all you of the Souldiery, since he was to make use of your service for the accomplishment of his ends, which with all my heart I have often wish't that they had bin better byassed; and so Gen∣tlemen, we must have a time to depart, sinace for these five hours or more, we have cost the ball from one to the other, and yet at last how different soever in our opinions, I joy in this, that we shall depart in love and friendship, not doubting but this meeting may make way for another of more mirth and less distaste, wishing and praying to the God of Peace, that in this universal dis∣agreement of opinions in these times, that odium and hatred which so unhappily hath been contracted between brethren of one and the self-same English blood upon the late fatal quarrel, may yet at length be bury∣ed in that pleasing Sepulcher of a cordial reconciliation, and that we may all submit, first to Gods good will and pleasure, and next to that Government which by many vi∣sible manifestations he hath been pleased to establish, in the room of that which hath been so sanguinary, so displeasing to him,

so dolorous & grievous to the poor innocent people, so improsperous and detrimental to all parties; and it shall be my continual sute unto him, who is the great King of the World, he that makes and unmakes Kings and States at his onely will and pleasure, to put a period to our Calamities, which I fear cannot be permitted, as inconsi∣stent with his Justice, or appeased with bare moralities, but with the realtie of a true and timely repentance, which is the onely sacrifice and propitiation that he loves, and the same for which we ought incessantly to pray, it may be given unto us all of this sinful Nation.

Prel.

Patriotus, I beseech you be not so hasty to depart before I have made an acknowledgment that you have convinc't me in sundry particulars, especially by your two last Replies, which have given me more light, and better satisfaction then ever I received from any man living; And truly Sir, I shall ruminate on that which towards the conclusion of your last Re∣ply you delivered, and so shall detain you no longer, but onely to give you hearty thanks with assurance that I both love and honout you.

Patri.

Doctor, in a word more, my En∣deavors

throughout all our conference have been to make use of nothing but plain truth, neither to deliver any thing on bare trust, or delude you with flams without due proofs; and for conclusion, I wish you all to review, and take the particulars following into your second consideration, viz. First, with whom the Parliament had to do, and into what streights, difficulties, and En∣cumbrances they were intoy'ld and engaged, which was onely by the continued wiles and practises of the late unfortunate King; next into what plunges and necessities they were driven for the preservation of the com∣mon interest and safety of the Nation, their own persons and the people by whom they were trusted together, with those necessitated and forcible reasons, which induced them to cut off the late King, as the cause of so much innocent blood spilt, with the exclusion of his Posterity, & change of the Government. In the next place, take the reasons of the continuation of the Contri∣butions, for securing thereof, and staving off a second war, which the Malignant Party endevours by bringing in the Scoth Pre∣tender, which should it happen, in all pro∣bability may be more bloody and more in∣tolerable for the people to bear, then the former have been, which by many in∣fallible

Arguments and demonstrations in our conference is made manifest. The premises duly considered, cannot be denyed; why then the several parties in this great discrepancy of opinion, should not close in a cordial conjuncture, and unanimous agreement for conservation of their mutual interests, seems to me one of the great won∣ders of the world, but that some there are and not a few throughout the Land, which are possest with a spirit of error, and taken with such an Egyptian blindness, that they cannot or will not see Gods high hand and Providence in this Miraculous change of affairs, neither their own happiness involved therein, but are led captive through their own wilfulness, supposing to make their condition better by multiplying their own miseries; so fatally besotted they are with their restless desires, by bringing in upon themselves and the whole Nation, tyranny, ruine, and desolation: It shall therefore be my hearty prayers to Almighty God, to open the eyes of their understanding, as I hope Gentlemen, he will in good time, which would be a comfort to all good and honest men, to be eye-witnesses of unity and concord between brethren of one faith, one language, one linage, and withal my heart I wish it, of one unanimous spirit; then

by Gods blessing we should be more secure at home, and more formidable abroad; and so Gentlemen, once more I wish you a good∣night, but with this engagement that you shall God-willing, shortly see on what sandy foundations the King built his designs, and on what a rotten building your selves fram∣ed your hopes, with the groundless reasons which induced you to take part with a per∣sidious King, and how you have been all deluded by him under the specious pretence of Law and Loyalty, and that by the same way he came at last to ruine himself and his Posterity.

Notes

• The necessity of the continuation of the Contributions of the people.
• The destructive con∣sequence of the Sco••ch Kings com∣ing in by the sword.
• Of the hopes, assistances and Forces which the Scotch King may have to recover the Kingly Government, compared with the strengths the States have to main∣tain the present Govern∣ment, argued on all hands.
• The Scotch Preten∣ders hopes in assistance for recovery of the Crown, summed up.
• The States power and strengths at present.
• Of the difficulty that the Scotch King bath to in∣vade by Sea.
• The Hollanders case and of the States here al••ke parallel.
• Orange.
• Of the miserable con∣dition that will befal the Nation, especially the City of London, in case the Scots Pre∣tender comes in by the sword.
• Of the juglings of Judge Jenkins in Lex terrae.
• Mr. John Earn∣ly by name of the county of Wilts.
• Colonel Leg and others.
• The change of the Laws and Govern∣ment, which of ne∣cessity would follow a Conquest.
• Witness Colonel Gunters estate of the County of Pembrook, and divers others.
• Of the implacable batre: the Cava∣leers bear to the City of London.
• A continued descrip∣tion of the lamenta∣ble effects that will•• besal the Nation in the case aforesaid.
• Of the fearful consequences that attend a Con∣quest.
• This is a known truth, and hath been often aver'd by many residing at Oxford 1642. when to all mens think••ng the King was in a sairer way to have carried all before him.
• The reasons of the late Kings withdrawing of his commissions of Oyer and Terminer.
• The late Kings design to quit himself of all Parliaments.
• King James the first plotter of absolute so∣veraignty, & projector to dissolve & destroy Parliaments, and this design farthered by the Prelates.
• Daniel in vita Reg. Johannis.
• Vide Basili∣con Doron.
• The reasons of the Parliaments excluding the King of Scots, and the rest of the Descendants of King James.
• The grand obje∣ction of the Royal party answered in the next Reply.
• The late reli••k of the old Parlia∣ment, though lamed and les∣sened by the late King.
• Caesa. Com. lib. 5.
• Parliaments throughout all Ages not one & the same in form, though in substance; nei∣ther is there any Record ex∣tant, that shews the time when the late form, with King, Lords Spiritual and Temporal, with the Commons, had its institution; but doubless 'tis both a new and false assertion, that the Commons had not their free voyce from the first foundation of Parliaments to this present, as it evindently appears by the citations within mentioned, which are authentick and incontradictable.
• Neither that the summons to our Parliaments, are of one and the self same form.
• Lex terrae, and Mr. Pryns Book.
• Archyton.
• Straford.
• Vide, The Kings Letters to the Duke of Rich. mond, with others to the Queen.
• Vide, One of the Kings Expresses, where he yeelds the Militia during his own life, but not sor his Sons.
• The Juncto and the Kings Letters taken at Nasby, the one∣ly means that the Parliament came to the knowledge of his Intentions.
• Vide, That and other Commissions in the Signet Of∣fice.
• Vide. The Juncto.
• Witness his great Structure not far from Dublin.
• Dangerous Papers of the Duputies dis∣covered.
• Billingsly and Suckling.
• Ragland.