Tvvo speeches in Parliament of the right honourable William, Lord Vicount Say and Seale: Mr. of his Majesties Court of Wards and Liveries, and one of his Majesties most honourable Privie Councell, the first upon the bill against bishops power in civill affaires and courts of judicature. The other a declaration of himself touching the liturgie, and separation.

A Speech of the Right Ho∣nourable WILLIAM, Lord Vicount Say and Seale, one of his Majesties most Ho∣nourable privie Councell, spoken in Par∣liament, touching the Liturgie and Separation.

MY LORDS,

I Have waited to find you free from greater businesses, that I might crave leave to speake of something that concernes my selfe; And this I have the more desired since my Lord of Canterburies last speech, who ex∣pressing his troubles, and bewailing the miserie of his condition, and of the condition of the Church of Eng∣land, (for he would needs joyne them together, which I thinke he may as the cause and effect, for the miseries of the Church have certainly risen from him) hee insisted much upon this, That these troubles had befallen him through the malice of two parties, the Papists, and the Sectaries, and by those hee said the Church was greatly afflicted. How farre this man will extend this word Sectarie, and whom he will comprehend under it, I know not, but I have some cause to feare that I may lye under some misapprehensions in respect of matters of this

nature, which how farre it concerneth him your Lord∣ships will perceive by what I shall say. My Lord of Can∣terbury a man of meane birth, bred up in a Colledge, (and that too frequently falls out to be in a faction,) whose narrow comprehensions extended it selfe no farther then to carry on a side in the Colledge, or canvas for a Pro∣ctors place in the Universitie, being suddenly advanced to highest places of government in Church and State, had not his heart inlarged, by the inlargement of his fortune, but still the maintaining of his partie was that which fil∣led all his thoughts, which he prosecuted with so much violence and inconsideratenesse, that he had not an eye to see the consequences thereof to the Church and State, until hee had brought both into those distractions, dan∣ger and dishonour, which we now find our selves in∣compassed withall; Yet to magnifie his moderation, pre∣sently after the breaking of the last Parliament hee told a Lord who sitteth now in my sight, that if he had beene a violent man, hee wanted no occasion to shew it, for hee observed that my Lord Say never came to prayers, and added, that I was in his knowledge as great a Separatist as any was in England. My Lords, how farre hee hath spit this venome of his against me, I am not certaine; But I may well feare where it might doe me greatest preju∣dice; I shall therefore intreat your Lordships favours and patience, that I may give you in these things which so neerely concerne me a true account of my selfe, which I shall doe with ingenuity and clearenesse, and so as that if I satisfie not all men, yet I hope I shall make it ap∣peare I am not such a one as this waspish man was wil∣ling to make the world beleeve.

For the first of these that he chargeth upon me, it may be he was willing to have it thought that I would not joyne in prayer with your Lordships, but refused such a communion, which is altogether false, for I should most willingly joyne in prayer with you. And further I will adde, that I doe not thinke but some set formes of prayer,

by some men, in some cases, may be lawfully used; But this is that which I am not satisfied in, that a certaine number of men should usurpe an authority unto them∣selves to frame certaine prayers and formes of divine Ser∣vice, and when that is done, under the name of the Church to injoyne them upon all persons, in all times, and upon all occasions to be used and none other: and up∣on this ground (which makes it the worse) because these come from the publike spirit of the Church (when the Bishop or his Chaplaine shall frame them) and others proceed from the private spirit of this or that particular man.

This injunction is an usurpation of power over the Churches of Christ, and over the gifts and graces which Christ hath given unto men: which the Apo∣stles never exercised nor would assume, and yet they might much better have done it, and the same reasons might then have beene alledged for it, that are now; This turnes such formes, in stead of being directions, into su∣perstition.

This sets aside the gifts and graces which Christ hath given, and thrusts out the exercise of them, to substitute in their places, and introduce a device of man. This injunction of such formes upon all men, turnes that, which in the beginning necessity brought in for the helpe of insufficiency, to be now the continuance and mainte∣nance of insufficiencie, and a barre to the exercise of able and sufficient gifts and graces: As if because some men had need to make use of Crutches, all men should bee prohi∣bited the use of their legges, and injoyned to take up such crutches as have beene prepared for those who had no legges. This I confesse I am not satisfied in, yet I will further say thus much, here are with your Lordships some Bishops, men of great parts, able to offer up this worship unto God, in the use of those gifts which God hath endowed them with: and certainly they ought to serve him with the best of their abilities which they

have received. Let them make use of their owne gifts, nay let them but professe that they accompt not them∣selves bound to use formes; nor to this forme they use, more then any other, but that it is free to them to conceive prayer, or to helpe themselves by the use of any other forme they please aswell as this prescribed; And let them practise the same indifferently, that so it may be manifest the fault rests in the person and not in the Service, in the negligence of him that may offer better if he will, not in the Injunction of that which is offered; And I will not refuse to come to prayer: for I take the sinne then to bee personall, and to reside in the person officiating onely. I know not whether I expresse my selfe clearely to be un∣derstood in this or not, and it may seeme to be a nice scru∣pulosity, give me leave therefore to indeavour to cleare it by an instance or two. In the time of the Law, when God appointed himselfe to be worshipped by offerings, and sacrifices, the shadowes and types of those truths which were to come; If a poore man that had not abili∣ty to bring a Bullocke, or a Ramme, or a Lambe, had brought a paire of Turtle Doves, or two young Pigeons, it would have beene in him an acceptable service: But if a man of ability who had heards and flocks, should out of negligence or covetousnesse, have spared the cost of a Bullocke or a Ramme, and brought young Pigeons, his service would have beene rejected, and himselfe punish∣ed: how much more would the service have beene abo∣mination, if men should have taken authority to have injoyned all to bring no other but Turtles or young Pi∣geons, because some were not able to doe more? In one case there might be a tollerable and lawfull use of that, which otherwise used (especially if generally in∣joyned) would have beene most unlawfull; God will be worshipped with the fatte and the best of the inwards, the best of mens gifts and abilities, which he that wor∣ships, or officiates in worshipping, is to doe at his owne perill; And if it be left free unto him, the worship may

be lawful to him that joyneth with him therein in it selfe, though performed in a negligent, and so in a sinfull man∣ner by the Minister, but if that manner bee injoyned, the Service it selfe is to be refused.

Now in the time of the Gospell God hath appointed the foolishnesse of preaching (for so the world accompts it) to be the meanes whereby he will save those that be∣leeve; I conceive where there are no gifts inabling men to preach, there might bee a lawfull and profi∣table use of reading of printed Sermons and Homilies, and in such case they might very lawfully be heard; But if some men upon pretence to prevent extravagant preaching, should take upon them to set forth a booke of publike or common Sermons fit for all times and oc∣casions, and should injoyne Ministers to conforme to those, and use no other preaching at all, but the reading of these common Sermons or Homilies so devised for publike worship, this would make it utterly unlawful, and to be professed against, as that which were the bring∣ing in of a humane device and injunction, in the place, and in stead of Gods ordinance, to the exclusion thereof, as the Pharisees, to establish traditions of their owne, made void the commandements of God; let it bee considered what difference there can bee found betweene these, but onely this, Use and Custome hath enured us to that of Prayer, not so in this of Preaching, and therefore the evill of it would easily appeare unto us if so injoyned.

My Lords, let me presume upon your patience so farre further, as to give me leave to speake to the other impu∣tation laid upon mee that I am a Separatist, and the grea∣test in England; and first I shall say of this word Separa∣tist, as that learned man Mr. Hales of Eaton saith in a little Manuscript of his which I have seene.

That where it may be rightly fixed and deservedly char∣ged, it is certainly a great offence; But in common use now amongst us it is no other then a Theologicall scar-crow, wherewith the potent and prevalent party useth to fright

and enforce those who are not of their opinions to subscribe to their dictates, without daring to question them, or bring them to any rule or examination either of Scripture or reason. And he observeth that this was too usuall, even in ancient times as well as now.

Secondly, I say that there is a twofold separation, one from the Universall or Catholike Church, which can no otherwise be made but by denying the faith, (for Faith and Love are the Requisites unto that communion) the other is a separation from this or that particular Church or con∣gregation, and that not in respect of difference with them in matter of faith or love, but in dislike onely of such corruptions in their externall worships and Liturgies as they doe admit of, and would injoyne upon others. This is a separation not from their persons as they are Chri∣stians, but from their corruptions in matter of worship as they are therewith defiled; And this separation every man that sin keepe himselfe pure from other mens sins, and not sin against his own conscience, must make. And I will ingenuously confesse, that there are many things in many Churches or Congregations in England practised, and injoyned upon all to be practised and suffered, which I cannot practise, nor admit of; except I should sin against the light of my conscience, untill I may out of the word of God be convinced of the lawfulnesse of them, which hitherto I could never see sufficient ground for. But my Lords, this is so farre from making me the greatest Sepa∣ratist in England, that it cannot argue me to be any at all; for my Lords, the Bishops doe know that those whom they usually apply this terme unto are the Brownists (as they call them by another name) and they know their tenents. The truth is, they differ with us in no fundamen∣tall point of doctrine or saving truth, as I know.

Their failing is in this, they hold that there is no true Church in England, no true Ministry, no true worship, which depend the one upon the other, they say all is Antichristian: here is their errour, they

distinguish not betweene the bene esse or puritie of a true Church, and the esse or true being of it, though with many defects and grosse corruptions, But conclude that because such things are wanting, which are indeed necessary to the well being of a true Church, and to be desired, therefore there is none at all in being. I hold no such opinion, but doe beleeve to the contra∣ry, That there are in England many true Churches, and a true Ministrie which I doe heare, and with which Churches I could joyne in communion were those yokes of bondage which are laid upon them taken off, and those corruptions removed which they doe (contrary as I thinke to their dutie) yeeld unto and admit of, and this I am sure no separatist in England hold∣eth that deserveth that name. Therefore I hope your Lordships will in that respect let me stand right in your opinions. I shall now end with two requests.

The one that your Lordships will please to pardon me for troubling you with so long a discourse con∣cerning my selfe, I have not used it heretofore, and I am not like to offend againe in the same kind, it is but once, and your Lordships will consider the occasion.

The second is humbly to intreat of you, that where you know there is one and the same God worship∣ed, one and the same faith imbraced, one and the same spirit working love, and causing an unblameable conver∣sation without any offence to the State, in your brethren, that in all these concurre with you, you will not suffer them (for Ceremonies, and things to you indifferent, but not to them but burthens, which without offence to the State, or prejudice to the Churches, you may take off if you will) to be thrust out of the Land, and cut off from their native Countrey, for if you thus shall wound the consciences of your brethren, you will certainly of∣fend, and sinne against Christ.

FINIS.