Tvvo speeches in Parliament of the right honourable William, Lord Vicount Say and Seale: Mr. of his Majesties Court of Wards and Liveries, and one of his Majesties most honourable Privie Councell, the first upon the bill against bishops power in civill affaires and courts of judicature. The other a declaration of himself touching the liturgie, and separation.

A Speech of the Right Honou∣rable WILLIAM, Lord Vicount Say and Seale, one of his Majesties most Honourable privie Councell, spoken in Parliament, upon the Bill against the Bishops.

MY LORDS,

I Shall not need to begin as high as A∣dam in answer to what hath bin drawne downe from thence by a Bishop con∣cerning this question,* 1.1 for that which is pertinent to it will onely be what con∣cernes Bishops as they are ministers of the Gospell, what was before (being of another nature) can give no rule to this. The question that will lye before your Lordships in passing of this bill is not whether Episco∣pacie (I meane this Hierarchicall Episcopacy which the world now holds forth to us) shall be taken away Roote and branch, but whether those exuberant and superfluous branches, which draw away the sap from the tree, and di∣vert it from the right and proper use whereby it becomes unfruitfull, shall be cut off, as they use to plucke up suckers from the Roote. The question will be no more but this, whe∣ther Bishops shall be reduced to what they were in their first advancement over the Presbyters (which although it were but a humane device for the Remedy of Schisme, yet were they in those times least offensive) or continue still with the addition of such things, as their owne ambition, and the ignorance and superstition of succeeding times did adde thereunto, and which are now continued for severall politicke ends, things heterogeneall and inconsistent with

their calling and function, as they are ministers of the Gos∣pell, and thereupon such, as ever have been, and ever will be, hurtfull to themselves, and make them hurtfull to others, in the times and places where they are continued. And these things alone this bill takes away, that is their offices and pla∣ces in Courts of Judicature, and their imployments by Obli∣gation of office in civill affaires: I shall insist upon this, to shew first how these things hurt themselves, and secondly, how they have made, and ever will make them hurtfull to others; They themselves are hurt thereby in their conscien∣ces, and in their credits; In their consciences, by seeking or admitting things which are inconsistent with that function and office which God hath set them apart unto. They are se∣parated unto a speciall worke, and men must take heed how they mis-imploy things dedicated and set apart to the service of God; They are called to preach the Gospell, and set apart to the worke of the ministery, and the Apostle saith, who is suf∣ficient for these things, shewing that this requireth the whole man, and all is too little, therefore for them to seeke, or take other offices which shal require and tye them to imploy their time and studies in the affaires of this world, wil draw a guilt upon them, as being inconsistent with that which God doth call them and set them apart unto. In this respect our Savi∣our hath expresly prohibited it, telling his Apostles that they should not Lord it over their Brethren, nor exercise Juris∣diction over them, as was used in civill governments among the Heathen: They were called gracious Lords, and exercised Jurisdiction as Lords over others, and sure they might lawful∣ly doe so: but to the Ministers of the Gospel our Saviour gives this Rule, it shall not be so done by you; If ye strive for great∣nesse, he shall be the greatest, that is the greatest servant to the rest; therefore in another place he saith, Hee that putteth his hand to the Plow and looketh backe to the things of this world is not fit for the kingdom of God, that is the preaching of the Gospel, as it is usually called. To be thus withdrawne by intangling themselves with the affaires of this life by the necessity and duty of an Office received from men, from the discharge of that Office which God hath called them unto,

brings a woe upon them; Woe unto me, saith the Apostle, if I preach not the Gospel, what doth he meane? If I preach not once a quarter, or once a yeare in the Kings Chappell? No, he himself interpreted it; Preach the Word, be instant, in season and out of season, rebuke, exhort, or instruct, with all long suf∣fering and doctrine: he that hath an office, must attend upon his office, especially this of the ministery. The practice of the Apostles is answerable to the direction, and doctrine of our Saviour. There never was, nor will be, men of so great abili∣ties and gifts as they were indued withall, yet they thought it so inconsistent with their Callings to take places of Judica∣ture in civill matters, and secular affaires and imployments upon them, that they would not admit of the care and distra∣ction that a businesse farre more agreeable to their Callings, then these, would cast upon them, and they give the reason of it, in the sixth of the Acts, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God and serve Tables. And again, when they had appointed them to choose men fit for that businesse, they insti∣tute an office rather for taking care of the poore, then they by it would be distracted from the principall worke of their Calling, and then shew how they ought to imploy them∣selves; But we (said they) will give our selves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the Word; Did the Apostles, men of extraordinary gists, thinke it unreasonable for them to be hindred from giving themselves continually to preach∣ing the Word and Prayer, by taking care for the tables of the poore Widowes, and can the Bishops now thinke it reasona∣ble or lawfull for them to contend for sitting at Councell Ta∣ble to governe States, to turne States-men in stead of Church∣men, to sit in the highest Courts of Judicature, and to be im∣ployed in making lawes for civill polities and government? If they shall be thought fit to sit in such places, and will un∣dertake such imployments, they must not fit there as ignorant men, but must be knowing men in businesses of State, and un∣derstand the Rules and lawes of government, and therby both their time and studies must be necessarily diverted from that which God hath called them unto; And this sure is much more unlawfull for them to admit of, then that which the Apostles rejected as a distraction unreasonable for them to be interrup∣ted

by. The doctrine of the Apostles is agreeable to their pra∣ctice herein, for Paul when hee instructeth Timothy for the work of the ministery presseth this argument from the ex∣ample of a good Souldier, no man that warreth intangleth himselfe with the affaires of the world: So that I conclude, That which by the commandement of our Saviour, by the practice and doctrine of the Apostles, and I may add by the Canons of ancient Councels, grounded thereupon, is prohibi∣ted to the Ministers of the Gospell, and shewed to be such a distraction unto them from their Callings and function, as wil bring a woe upon them, and is not reasonable for them to ad∣mit of; If they shall notwithstanding intangle themselves withall, and enter into, it will bring a guilt upon their soules, and hurt them in respect of their consciences.

In the next place it doth blemish them, and strike them in their credit, so farre from truth is that position which they desire to possesse the world withall, that unlesse they may have these outward trappings of worldly pomp added to the Ministry, that Calling will grow into contempt, and be de∣spised. The truth is, these things cast contempt upon them in the eyes of men. They gaine them cap and courtesie, but they have cast them out of the consciences of men; and the reason is this, every thing is esteemed as it is eminent in its owne pro∣per excellencie; the eye in seeing, not in hearing; the eare in hearing, not in speaking; The one would be rather monstrous then comely, the other is ever acceptable being proper; so is it with them, their proper excellency is spirituall, the deniall of the world with the pomp and preferments, and imploy∣ments thereof, this they should teach and practise, but when they contrary hereunto seeke after a worldly excellency like the great men of the world, and to rule and dominere as they doe contrary to our Saviours precept, Vos autem non sic, but it shall not be so amongst you, in steid of honor & esteem they have brought upon themselves in the hearts of the people that contempt and odium which they now lye under, and that justly and necessarily, because the world seeth that they pre∣fer a worldly excellency, and run after it, and contend for it, before their owne, which being spirituall is farre more ex∣cellent, and which being proper to the Ministry is that alone

which will put a value and esteem upon them that are of that Calling. As these things hurt themselves in their consciences and credit, so have they, and, if they be continued, still will make them hurtfull to others; The reason is, because they break out of their owne orbe, and move irregularly; there is a curse upon their leaving of their owne place. The heavenly bodies while they keep within their own spheres give light and comfort to the world, But if they should break out, and fall from their regular and proper motions, they would set the world on fire: so have these done while they kept them∣selves to the work of their ministry alone, and gave them∣selves to prayer, and the ministry of the Word, according to the example of the Apostles, the world received the greatest benefits by them, they were the light, and life thereof; But when their ambition cast them down like starres from heaven to earth, and they did grow once to be advanced above their brethren, I doe appeale to all who have beene versed in the ancient Ecclesiasticall stories, or moderne Histories, whether they have not been the common incendiaries of the Christian world, never ceasing from contention one with another about the precedency of their Sees, and Churches, Excommunica∣ting one another, drawing Princes to be parties with them, and thereby casting them into bloody warres. Their ambiti∣on, and intermedling with secular affaires and State businesse, hath bin the cause of shedding more Christian blood then any thing else in the Christian world, and this no man can deny that is versed in History; But we need not go out of our own Kingdome for examples of their insolency and cruelty; when they had a dependency upon the Pope, and any footing there∣by out of the Land, there were never any that carried them∣selves with so much scorn and insolency towards the Princes of this Kingdom, as they have done.* 1.2 Two of them the Bishop that last spake hath named, but instances of many more may be given whereof there would be no end. Although the Pope be cast off, yet now there is another inconvenience no lesse prejudiciall to the Kingdome by their sitting in this House, and that is, they have such an absolute dependency upon the King, that they sit not here as freemen. That which is requi∣site to freedome, is to be void of hopes and feares; Hee that

can lay downe these is a free-man, and will be so in this house; But for the Bishops as the case stands with them, it is not likely they will lay aside their hopes, greater Bishopricks be∣ing still in expectancy: and for their fears they cannot lay them downe, since their places and seats in Parliament are not invested in them by blood, and so hereditary, but by an∣nexation of a Barony to their office, and depending upon that office, so that they may be deprived of their office, and thereby of their places, at the Kings pleasure, they doe not so much as sit here dum bene se gesserint, as the Judges now by your Lordships petition to the King have their places granted them, but at will and pleasure, and therefore as they were all excluded by Edw. the first as long as hee pleased, and Lawes made excluso Clero, so may they be by any King at his pleasure in like manner, they must needs therefore bee in an absolute dependencie upon the Crowne, and thereby at devotion for their votes, which how prejudiciall it hath beene, and will be, to this house, I need not say.

I have now shewed your Lordships how hurtfull to themselves and others these things which the bill would take away have beene, I will only answer some Objections which I have met withall, and then crave your pardon for troubling you so long.

Object. 1. It will be said that they have beene very antient.

2. That they are established by law.

3. That it may be an infringement to the priviledges of the House of Peeres, for the house of Commons to send up a Bill to take away some of their members.

To these three objections the answer will be easie.

1. To the first, Antiquity is no good plea, for that which is by experience found to be hurtfull, the longer it hath done hurt the more cause there is now to remove it, that it may doe no more, besides other irregularities are as antient which have bin thought fit to be redressed, and this is not so antient, but that it may truly be said, Non fuit sic ab initio.

2. For being established by Law, the law-makers have the same power, and the same charge, to alter old lawes in∣convenient, as to make new that are necessary.

3. For priviledge of the House it can be no breach of it, for either estate may propose to other by way of bill what they conceive to be for publick good, and they have power respectively of accepting or refusing.

There are two other Objections which may seeme to have more force, but they wil receive satisfactory answers.

The one is, that if they may remove Bishops, they may as well next time remove Barons and Earles: for answer.

The Reason is not the same, the one sitting by an Ho∣nour invested in their blood, and hereditary, which though it be in the King to grant alone, yet being once granted he cannot take away; the other sitting by a Barony de∣pending upon an Office which may be taken away, for if they be deprived of their office they sit not.

2. Their sitting is not so essentiall, for Lawes have bin, and may be made, they being all excluded, but it can ne∣ver be shewed, that ever there were Lawes made by the King, and them, the Lords and Earles excluded.

The other objection is this, that this Bill alters the foundation of this house, and innovations which shake foundations are dangerous.

I answer first, that if there should be an error in the foundation, when it shall be found, and the master-builders be met together, they may, nay, they ought rather to a∣mend it, then to suffer it to runne on still, to the prejudice and danger of the whole structure.

2. Secondly, I say this is not fundamentall to this House, for it hath stood without them, and done all that appertaines to the power thereof without them, yea, they being wholly excluded, and that which hath beene done for a time at the Kings pleasure, may be done with as little danger for a longer time, and when it appears to be fit and for publick good, not onely may, but ought to be done altogether by the supreame Power.

FINIS.

Notes

• * 1.1

  The Bishop of Lincolne.
• * 1.2

  Lincolne.