Zerubbabel to Sanballat and Tobiah: or, The first part of the duply to M.S. alias Two brethren.: By Adam Steuart. Whereunto is added, the judgement of the reformed churches of France, Switzerland, Geneva, &c. concerning independants, who condemne them with an unanimous consent. Published by David Steuart. March 17. 1644. Imprimatur Ja: Cranford.

Quod foelix, faustumque sit;

THe first period of this Book is a manifest untruth; There is no such thing in all my Book, as that my heart with discontent is rent in two pieces to hear the innocent bleatings of that wronged Lamb, the Apologie, So as I may here use your admirative Interrogation; Is this the use men make of pressing Sermons? Your following Injuries non sunt dignae irâ Caesaris; I must be fain to beare with this Epidemicall Disease of you Independents, and shall shew hereafter, that ye are not Separatistae nominales, but reales: If the Church lie now gasping, as you complain, who (I pray) can be the cause of it, but your selves, that vex and torment her more, then Papists, Arminians, Anabaptists, Socinians, and all other Sects and Heresies besides ever yet did.

P. 2. sect. 4. Thou art a strange Divine, that consultest Astrologues, about the Horoscope of my Book. But to that I say no more, but what the Prophet saith, Stand up with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, if so be thou maiest prevaile; Let now the Astrologers, the Star-gazers, the moneth∣ly Prognesticators stand up. Jer. 10.12. I am not dismayed at the signe of the heaven, for the Heathen are dismaid at them; I tell thee with all thy Chaldeans, and Sorcerers, I feare you not all. Christians feare not such Prophets; God hath raised us up a Prophet like to Moyses, whom we must heare, and Moyses tels thee, that they who doe these things, that thou doest, are an abomination to the Lord, Deut. 18.10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15.

After this sect. 6. in the same pag. he giveth out his judgement upon the title of my Book, but without the least judgement or reason at all.

P. 3. Sect. 1. He accuseth me to be too peremptorious in determining the question, and so anticipating the judgement of the Assembly.

Answ. 1. If I anticipate, so, I must tell him, does he, with the rest of the Secta∣ries of his Faction, in determining the question for his party. 2. particular mens Determinations cannot anticipate the judgement of the Assembly, or take it out of their hands, as most ignorantly hee pretends; for particular mens private Determinations are evermore subject to publike Determination. 3. Neither is it necessary, that when ever Sects or Heresies creepe into the Church, wee should presently all begin to suspend our judgements in things revealed in Gods word, and already determined by the Church, as this is, as we shall God willing hereafter make appeare, and so stand ever gaping after new Decisions. I should doe my selfe wrong to answer the 2 Sect. Which conteineth only his unreasonable judgement against me, who

say nothing of Independents, but what I prove by evident Reasons; And the judgements of Protestant Churches abroad, here printed, will decide this Controversie. But what he saith from the rest of the third page, till page the 6. Sect, 3. it shall be an swered in a particular question.

P. 4. Sect. 2. A.S. his Observations are like a man with a Pole-ax, knocking, a man on the head to kill a fly lighting on his heard. Answ. What this man mean∣eth by his Pole-axe, I know not: I strike at no mans head; If I strike at any fly, it must be some Wasp, and then either a Hornet that stingeth to death the Horse of whose dung it is bred, or a Wasp with which Tertullian not unfitly compareth Sectaries, faciunt favos vespae, faciunt & Ecclesias Marcionite; quid ni & Donatista?

P. 6. Sect. 3. He propounds himselfe for a pattern to me in writing; But hee must excuse me, if I tell him plainly, I hold him not worthy the imitating, nei∣ther may I ever so much reverence any of his party, as to quit my Christian li∣berty to refute their extravagancies, where ever I meet with them, especially when they appeare to be of so pernicious a consequence. As for the title of Most revenend, that I gave them, I learn't it in part, of themselves, that they are reverend; and since their reverence is independent, what else could I take it for, but most reverend that acknowledge no superiour Reverence.

Sect. 5. Howsoever of his liberality hee bestow the lie on me, I must pray him permit me to return it home again; for what I said before, by his good leave, I must say again; it is most true, that in your particular Opinions, ye differ from all true reformed Churches, at least so far forth as they are distinguished from Conventicles, and Schismaticall Assemblies: And as for your Reformed Churches in England viz. Independent, from which ye differ not, 1. they are in∣visible, 2. they are Schismaticall, 3. and erected without the Civill Magistrates consent; and such Churches your selves hold unlawfull, turbulent, Schis∣maticall, and punishable, in N.E. And if in N.E. wherefore, I pray, not in old England also?

Sect. 6. And as for that his conjecture, that I wil object some Manuscripts, and Master Parkers letter from N.E. and another from Zeland, it is his mi∣stake; for it was not my intention to dispute in a liminary Epistle, only I say of Master Parker, (since he puts me upon this subject) that if he were at his liberty in O.E. as he is in servitude under that oppression of N.E. he might happily say more, then he will be allowed to say there.

P. 7. Sect. 1. It is also a great mistake in him, to think that their Discipline can be abused to ill: it cannot be abused but to good.

P. 8, Sect. 1. It is an abominable accusation and a black calumnie, that hee layeth upon the Reformed Churches of Zeland, viz. that there are in their letters many high passages, seeming so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy, that it justifieth that of the Apologie; 2. for that letter speaketh not at all of the Magistrate, or Magistracy of England. 2. It speaketh only of their own, wher∣of

this little Independent Minister is too bold to thinke himselfe a competent Judge; Neither will they depend of him, howbeit he should a spire to be as In∣dependent, as Lucifer himself. 3. They speak not of all their Magistrates, but of some, and especially of those who joyned with the Arminian Sect; The Arminians crying up their authority in the Spirituall government of the Church; and these unworthy Magistrates crying down the Doctrine. 4. Be∣cause the Government of Holland, and the Magistrates power there, is not like to that of England; the one being Monarchicall, or rather mixt of Monarchi∣call, Aristocraticall, and Democraticall, as it is commonly holden here; and the other Aristocraticall, or mixt of Aristocracy, and Democracy: and there∣fore the rules of the one Government cannot be well drawn in consequence for the other. 5. This M.S. cognomento Calumniator, in this matter, should have done well, and gone more honestly to work, if he had cited those high passages, so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy, but he shewes himselfe more cunning, then so to discover his calumny. 6. As for his sententious conclusion of this point with Ʋerbum sapienti sat est, a man very well affectioned to the Zelan∣ders, in reading of it, added in the margin of the Book, sed non insipientis, ne∣dum decipientis. It is as great pitty so good men should have harboured so ill and so unthankfull Guests.

P. 9. Sect. 3. He speaketh, as if he were a Prophet, sent to reforme all the Churches of the world; (so did Bur Jesu) and bringeth us in (I know not what) a Master Davenport (like another Salomon) in the way of N.E. cast∣ing out his new proverbiall Sentences, viz. a. Classicall Presbyterie is 13. Bi∣shops. O witty and weighty Sentence, if any man understood it, worthy only such an Ecclesiastes as himself to be Register of What praise merite ye not both? Vunlo tu dignus, & ille. In the the end of this sect. he giveth out his metaphorical judgement, to grinde the Idol of half Reformation to powder; and yet professeth, that he will not, (or which a man would rather beleeve,) cannot tell what it is. O how ridiculous a Judge is this without judgement. Only this I will say, that 1. if it be Episcopacy, as this new Master of Sentences, & C.C. say. 2. if an Idol that must be grinded into powder, as M.S. saith: and 3. if Episcopal Government must be extirpated, as the Covenant saith, and as we all in swearing the Covenant say, sure then the Scots are come in upon very worshipfull termes, to assist the In∣dependents, viz. upon this Condition, that when they have fought for them, they shall extirpate them, and grinde them all into powder: Is not this a very quick Independent conception? and yet notwithstanding all this (which is worthy the noting) these good men in taking the Covenant have sworn the preservation of the reformed Religion, in the Church of Scotland, in Doctrine, Worship, Discipline, and Government, i.e. (according to their judgement) good Prelacy, or Episcopacy: jura, perjura. And here like a little Pope he telleth us, that all Churches generally, purtly by Tyranny, and partly by security are grown so corrupt, that to apologise for a through Reformation seems to reprove all, and so all

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will be offended. None (it seems) shall be reformed, unless they become In∣dependent, so that they, and they alone may vaunt themselves.

Et nos ergo manum ferulae subduximus, & nos Consilium dedimus Syllae.

To his 4. Sect. I maintain, that Independents dissent from all Christian Churches, since no Christian Church holds it selfe Independent but yours: and whether they be any Churches, that are not Protestant, we shall see in a particular Question; howbeit it be an untruth, that ever I said, that Papists were Christian Churches: He and his fellows doe well to dissent from Papists; but not in dependency: His Observations are false, where he sayes, that we run to the Popish markes of visibility, succession, and universality: and I have refuted this calumny in my Answer to C.C. When I argue from visibility, and number, I doe as the Apostle doth in bringing many visible Saints, as a great number of witnesses of our Doctrine, Heb. 11. and not as Essentiall markes of our Church. P. 10.

Because I say that the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers are but men, as I am, and that they may erre; out of this hee inferreth, that I thinke I have more knowledge then they, since they are not yet con∣demned by the Assembly. Answ. I deny the consequence; for by the same reason, every particular man, that condemneth Anabaptisme and other Schismes, and Heresies, before they be condemned by the Synod, should thinke themselves learneder, then they are. But is it such a crime to say that they are but men that may erre? I pray you sir, if ye be any other thing then men, what are ye? if ye be men, who pretend ye cannot erre, you must either be Sancta Mater Ecclesia Romana, or els lead by Anabaptisticall Enthusiasines, as with an ignis fatuus. And pretend ye that by reason of your great learning ye are pri∣viledged from errour? I tell thee, man, that amongst the very Angels, Lucifer; and amongst men, Adam in the state of integrity, and since the Fall, Achitophel, and Salomon erred, and yet every one of them were learneder then ye all. I hope there is no man maketh the least question, but the meanest of them was learneder then any of you, yea then you all in cumulo. And therefore vaunt not so much of your learning; No learning, but visio beatifica (which ye want) can priviledge a man from errour, according to Schoole-men.

P. 11. Sect. 1. I have answer'd, it is no Popish Argument, when I oppose so great a number of Witnesses unto him; for then the Apostles Argument, Heb. 11. should be Popish: what is thy mopish argument I know not, for I never read mopish in the Index of my Bible, nor amongst the termes of Divinity or Philosophy: whether it be an injury or not, I know not, and care as little.

2. It is an untruth to say, that I would conjure him to yeeld any thing upon plurality of voyces; for I have learned of some of his own party, that they are

no wayes minded, upon plurality of voyces, to submit themselves unto the venerable Assembly of Divines, neither can it well agree with the independent Spirits of their Divinity, that the spirits of Prophets be subject to Prophets: They will, that all be subject unto them. Sect. 4. Neither are his 4. silly Argu∣ments, which are but one, drawn up ab Exemplo, of notorious Sinners, Ma∣lignants, Papists, and Prelates, who argue from the multitude of those of their way, to the verity and equity of it, any thing to the purpose. First, we cite but a number of reformed Divines, and reformed Churches, which hee acknow∣ledges with us to be such, so does not he of his Examples. 2. And if I have er∣red in this, wherefore did the Apologists shew me the way, in citing the Ex∣amples of those of N.E. &c? 3. My Argument concludeth ad Hominem, since they argue so. 4. I ground not my selfe on this Argument alone, but on a great number of others in my book, whereuuto hee answers not, nor can answer.

P. 17. Sect. 1. What he tells us of the number of their Churches, they are but Churches of Sectaries, and Schismaticall, since they have cut off them∣selves, and are separated from all Protestant Churches union, and communion, as I have often-times declared, and I speak not of such Churches.

Sect. 3. He sayes, that W.R. condemns the Apologists for agreeing with the Churches of N.E. and A.S. condemneth them for dissenting from them; He should have done well to have coted the places of our Books; and to have told at the same time in what points we condemne them, in their consent and dissent; for W.R. may condemne them for their consent in one thing, and A.S. for their dissent in another: If I condemne them for any dissent, I may safely swear, that either I have read it in their Books, or heard it of Indepen∣dents themselves: What I say p. 17. sect. 4. I say it again in my conscience, that I verily beleeve that Independency cannot but prove the root of all Schismes and Heresies; yea I adde, that by consequence, it is much worse then Popery. And all this I have sufficiently proved in my Book, whereunto he answers nothing. And whereas he sayes, I would do well to confer with some of them I write against, I had thought I had sufficiently declared my readiness in that kind formerly; and I again now declare unto you, Sir, in particular, that I desire to confer with you, if I may know who you are; you shall herein do me a singular pleasure, to teach me better; which if ye do not, or make me know, who ye are, I cannot think this counsell to be given in sinceritie.

Whereas I say, ye sue for a Toleration, and consequently for a Separation; it is most true, in the sense, that I take a Separation, viz. for a Separation from our Discipline, and Sacramentall Communion, as I have fully proved in this my Book, whereunto all the Independent Churches in the world cannot an∣swer; for if ye be not separated from us, but entertain union and communion with us, what need ye more a Toleration, rather then the rest of the members of our Church?

P. 18. Sect. 3. What I say of your undervaluing the Parliaments favour, it

is true: and howbeit ye have not been yet accused before the Parliament, or the Assembly, yet doth not that justifie you, but highly commend their great mer∣cy, singular prudence, and charity, in not taking notice of your indiscretions (to say no more) in calumniating, nick-naming the Protestant Churches, and publishing unto the world such unworthy Books against them, yea against those, whom ye acknowledge for your Benefactors; Is not this I pray thee M.S. an undervaluing of so great favours? is not this an extraordinary in∣gratitude to ward the Churches of the Netherlands, who so lovingly received you, and cherished you in the dayes of your affliction? Well, good men, if yee esteem it not so, they both may think their favours to have bin very ill bestowed upon so unthankfull men. But this M.S. and C.C. tell us, that they have done nothing, but by Ordinance of Parliament. What, wretched men, the very shame of this Kingdom, (I pray thee Reader pardon me, if I give them not the titles, that just anger would extort) dare ye in face of Parliament, and all the world so impudently father this indiscreet Book, farced with little else, save Calum∣nies, upon the two most honourable Houses of Parliament? Have ye, I pray, any order from either of the Houses to publish it unto the world? Have ye any order from them, to calumniate on this manner, and to put nick-names upon the most orthodox Churches? to call the Presbyterian an Episcopall Government? Shall Protestants abroad read all this? If they read it, what I pray can they judge of this Parliament, and their affection towards them, un∣lesse they judge you to be lyers? Well M.S. and C.C. yee speak both boldly and sawcily of the Parliament: And as if all this yet were not enough, thou M.S. to be sure to out-run C.C. tells us that the name of Stuart in foure men, has been fatall to England, and Scotland, viz. in King James, King Charles, Doctor Stuart, the Divine, and in Adam Stuart here. Pag. 22. Sect. 3. Hare-brained Fellow that thou art, what has King James, King Charles, or Doctor Stuart to do with this Dispute? canst thou not dispute calmly with me, unless thou be snarling, and biting, like a mad Dog, at every one that stands necre thee, at Kings, Parliament, and all the best reformed Orthodox Chur∣ches of the Christian world? I will not cast Horoscopes, or consult Astrologues and Deviners, as thou dost, but if the Laws of the Kingdom be consulted, God knoweth what a sad account thou mayest ere long bee called unto for such wilde expressions.

P. 19. Sect. 1. I am sory, that yee vaunt your selfe, that the Parliament resol∣ved with a generall acclamation, that your Apologie should be left unblamed, and that ye threaten so many sorrows, that should have befallen the Churches, if it had been condemned. If it be so, it is a pittie, but they should make great acclamations to so great and mighty Independent Ministers, that thinke none of them so much as worthy to communicate with their Churches, but will, that they depend upon them. But I beleeve, that this is like to the rest of your vain braggings. All that thou sayest P. 19. Sect. 3. they are but meere calumnies:

It is not I, but the Independents themselves, who sow the seed of Division, be∣twixt themselves on the one part, and the Parliament here, the Scots, and all Protestant Churches, on the other; only I declare what they are, and I am glad, if any of them have the grace to blush or be ashamed of it, Nam pudor est virtutis color, And so I answer thee in thine own words, nec oleum, nec operam perdo, Those 6. things, Proverbs 6.16. belong not to me, but to thy selfe; and as others say, they are the very Essentiall notes of your Independent Churches. Thou tellest also thereabout that thou divinest, I wish rather thou wert a sound Divine, then a Diviner.

To what thou sayest P. 20. Sect. 1. Because I have found thee, and those, who write against me, such notorious lyers, I must tell thee, I cannot beleeve thee, being my Adversary; and I beleeve, that no man will beleeve thee, till that they have it from a better hand.

Ibid. Your Minister, who preacheth us a tale, beginning with, In the name of God, and ending with a Goose, seemeth to have been some Independent Mini∣ster, like your selfe, happily your worthy selfe, for that you take so great plea∣sure to fill up your Book with so worshipfull authorities. Sect. 2. The Nick∣names you take on you not to know, they are 1. Calvinians, Apolog. Nar. p. 20. 2. Bishops, which ye your selves pin upon our Ministers, p. 9. 3. An Idol, that must be grinded to powder, &c.

What ever ye say, pag. 20. sect. 4. I maintain that first in Conventickling your selves in Assemblies a part. 2. In taking particular resolution a part, 3. in taking of it against the resolution of the Assembly of Divines, and 4. final∣ly, since in the thanks-giving to the Scots Commissioners, such proceedings have been most cleerly (howbeit indirectly) condemned by the Synod it selfe, no rationall man, to speaking truly, can call it other, then an Assembly in the As∣sembly, and against the Assembly; And to say, that particular Members of the Assembly may print, what they please against the common opinion of the Assembly, who ever sayes it, he knoweth little or not at all how Ecclesiasticall Assemblies are to be governed.

What you say p. 21. sect. 1. I see, it is not reason, but anger, that maketh you to speak so; And this may excuse you à tanto, sed non a toto; if now at length you be sory for it.

To your 2. sect. where you give out your judgement, in comparing another mans discretion, and mine together; he may be a man, whose discretion I ho∣nour more then yours and mine own both: but as for you, I cannot but tell you,

Judicium praeceps, insaeni judicis index.

Sect. 6. To shew his great skill in Phylosophy, he quarrelleth with me for saying, that the will is a blind Faculty; and will needs perswade me most impe∣riously, that the will of it selfe understandeth; wherefore then I pray shall not the understanding likewise will? Prudence choose, and vertue direct? Charity

beleeve, and Faith love? the Sense desire, and the Appetite feele? It is utterly false, that hereupon it followeth, that the will is an unreasonable Faculty; for howbeit, it be not a reasonable directive, yet it is a reasonable imperative Fa∣culty. And this I pray you, most considerate Philosopher (as you call your selfe) to learn of me; for however you inconsiderately judge, that we take our Prin∣ciples up upon trust, yet could I have helped you with a dozen of Arguments more probable, then that ridiculous one that ye have brought us.

P. 21. Sect. 8, He saith that I contradict my selfe in these following Propo∣positions, viz.

• 1. The five Ministers Discourse is most learned.
• 2. The five Ministers Discourse commeth very short, weak, and slender, and no wayes satisfactory.
• 3. The five Ministers discourse is errour.
• 4. The five Ministers are most learned.
• 5. The five Ministers are less learned then I am.

A Contradiction is between two propositions, consisting of the same termes, the one affirmative, the other negative, both singular, or the one universall, and the other particular. If any such Propositions be found in my Book, hee saith true, and I will confesse it; if not, he is bound to acknowledge himselfe a lyer.

Now in all these five Propositions, see, whether there be any such thing, yea or not. As for the first which he imagineth to be contradictory to the next two. 1. They are all affirmative. 2. Never an one of them has the same Attri∣bute. 3. In the second he omitteth some words of mine, viz. these, to their Ar∣guments. 4. The third Proposition is not mine: In the 4. and 5. Propositions, which he calleth contradictory. 1. They are both affirmative. 2. The fifth is not mine, but falsly attributed by him unto me: So see, courteous Reader, whether, he has more reason to say of me; The man maketh nothing of Con∣tradictions, or I, to say of him; This man, with the power of piety, maketh nothing of falsifications and lying.

What he saith more to my Epistle, it meriteth not an answer, since it con∣teineth nothing else, save only some stories of his Independent Gossips, more fit a great deale to be told to old wives, mislead by prejudices, then to be read by men of judgement. As concerning the 3. sect. pag. 22. I repent not my selfe at all, but thank my God that I have written against your Sect; And I pro∣mise you, God willing, to continue all my life long so doing, if he call me not to some other employment, wherein I may glorifie him more.

Only here, I pray thee Reader, to observe this mans vanity and madnesse, who thinking it but a small thing to offend me all along hitherto with his in∣jurious Pen, has run out of the links to pursue His Majestie, because of the name, which he hateth in my person; and therefore, that all the world may take notice of him, how couragious he is, he concludeth; All that I have to say to A.S. here is only to sigh over this name S. (in four men) as fatall to this

poore England and Scotland, &c. Well, I will not say the rest, for feare, that if ever thou be exalted, thou say not that I have been the cause in accusing thee, Only I know not what Schooles of Magick thou hast frequented, or curious Arts thou hast learned, or what occult vertue thou conceivest to be in Names, none but Magicians, and they who are given to curious (but unlawfull Sci∣ences) are of thy opinion; My name, I thank God, is no shame to me, I pray God thou be not a shame to thy Name, and thy Profession both.

And so much for the justification of my Epistle, consisting of halfe a sheet of paper, in a very faire letter; in the pretended refutation whereof, what with language, jeers, injuries, &c. this man hath employed no lesse then 22. pages in quarto, of a small Print, if the cyphers mark well. All which I have fully refuted with sundry Reasons, (howsoever I found none at all, or very few in his writing) in lesse then three leaves in 4^o. as I beleeve. Now let us see what he will say to my Observations.

Consideration 1.

A.S.

VVHether in any Ecclesiasticall, or Politicall Assembly of the Christian world, wherein things are carried by Plurality of voyces, it be or∣dinary for any inconsiderable number of men to joyne in a particular combi∣nation among themselves, and therin to take particular Resolutions, and to pub∣lish them unto the world; and so to anticipate upon the Resolutions of the whole Assembly.

Answ. 1. M.S. We have heard of some Parliaments in Europe, that the House of Peers is so constitute, that if a Vote pass, where som's Consciences amongst them cannot yeeld to, they may modestly enter in the House their dissent from it.

Rep. A.S. But your five Ministers have not done so: there was no Vote at all passed, upon all the Articles, that are debated in their Apologeticall Narra∣tion. 2. And therefore neither entred they, nor could they enter their Vote of dissent. 3. If the House of Peers be so constitute, it followeth not, that the As∣sembly of Divines should be so constitute. 4. The Apologists have not con∣tented themselves with these Priviledges of the Peers, or that are granted to any Parliament, or Synod men, viz. to enter modestly their dissent from it, but they have gone further; for before that ever things were Voted, they published them to all the world. 5. They did it not modestly, but with great insolence, in∣sulting over all Protestant Churches, as if they alone had the power of piety, or as if they in their Churches had it in a higher degree, then all other Christian Churches. 6. When the Peers do so, they doe it not as your Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers, viz. by Conventicling themselves in secret, and a part, not impart∣ing

their designe to their Brethren, and subscribing an Apologie together. 7. If it was not to crosse the proceeding and Disputes of the Assembly, wherefore, I pray could it be? 8. Neither could it be to tell the Kingdome de facto, what they held and practised: 1. For if it be so, wherefore are they Petitioners in the last page of their Apology for a latitude and Toleration in Religion? 2. Wher∣fore travaile they in all their Book, to refute the Presbyterian Government, received in the best Reformed Churches? 3. If you, Sir, can procure of your five Ministers to sweare, that what you say of them here is true, you may be better beleeved, then yet you are. 4. And I pray you tell us, if they have told you, that they had no other draught in all their Apologie, then what you de∣clare here. 5. If they affirme it in Conscience, certainly their mind has not been like to their Book. 6. If it be so, what is the reason, that they declared not themselves, before that they were Members of the Assembly, or before such time as these matters were debated there? 7. I ask you whether, in that Book, they declare not, what was their opinion, and what they were resolved to maintain. 8. And whether it was the duty of those that were to be judged, before that ever matters were propounded or debated in their Assembly, to propound them and debate them themselves before the people, before all the Water-men, Mid-wives, and children, yea, and the whole Kingdome? Was there ever any such way taken in any Synod, or Assembly in this world before this time?

M.S. But they declare themselves, to close neerer with the Assembly, were they all Presbytortans (as we know the contrary) then thousands ever thought they would.

A.S. This is but your fiction; for if I should tell you some mens judgement, & mine own concerning you before the beginning of this Assembly, I must say wee never thought, that your Opinions could have been so absurd, as we have fince found them in your Books: we beleeved, that ye were all to-gether con∣form with the rest of the Protestant Churches; and that what ye did in separa∣ting your selves from Episcopall Government, it was meerly out of necessity, because of their persecution: And I can assure you, that this was the charitable construction, that thousands of the Scots, and French Protestants made of your proceedings. 2. This your pretended Fact, is grounded upon a Supposition, con∣trary to your knowledge, as you declare in your Parenthesis (as we know the contrary) and therefore is de ente possibili, non de actuali.

M.S. they do profess themselves so unwedded to their former prastises, that upon discovery of more light, they are most willing to let it in.

A.S. This is the common tone of all Sectaries; so did the Arminians say; would to God, that they and others of that Sect were so minded, and thought not it rather derogatorie to the honour of so Independent Spirits, to receive any light at all from others, whose Spirits are subject to the Spirits of the Prophets;

But yee receive honour one from another, &c. But all this is not satisfactory to my Question, in this Observation.

M.S. Seeing all he has said to be little or nothing to purpose, and not an∣swering to my Question, he bringeth here his pretended Achilles, his main an∣swer. The Assembly is not, saith he, to conclude things by pluralitie of Votes, if you dare beleeve the Ordinance of parliament, whose words are, to confer, and treat touching Doctrine, Discipline, &c. and to deliver their Opinions and Advices, as shall be most agreeable to the word of God; And in case of difference of opinions among the said Divines, they shall present the same, together with the Reasons thereof, to the Houses of Parliament. This taketh away in his conceit pluralitie of voyces, and doth more then allow so much, as is done in the A∣pologeticall Narration.

A.S. I deny, that the Assembly is not to conclude any thing by Plurality of Votes, for they conclude by Plurality of Votes, even those Opinions and Ad∣vices, that they are to deliver to the Parliament; and if it were not so, they could not at all conclude their Opinions and Advices. 1. And as for the Ordi∣nance, it commandeth one thing, viz. to conferre, &c. but it forbiddeth not the other, viz. to conclude things by Plurality of Votes. 2. Howbeit it should for∣bid them, in some manner, to conclude some things by plurality of Votes, yet should it not follow, that it forbiddeth them absolutely, and altogether. 3. If any thing can be indirectly inferred of against concluding of things by pluraeli∣ty of voyces, it is only this, viz. That the Assembly, in case of dissent amongst themselves, shall conclude nothing, before that they present it, together with their Reasons, to the Houses of Parliament; and the reason is, because howsoever the Church may conclude things by Ecclesiasticall authority, yet cannot her Autho∣rity make it to be received in the Kingdome by Law; and it is the Magistrates duty, before that he establish it by Civill Authority, and make it to passe as a Law, that may oblige his Subjects in foro civili, that he first informe him∣selfe throughly, and know well, upon what ground he passes it: and this may be cleerly proved by the practice of the Primitive Church; for howsoever there the Ministers of the Church concluded many things by their Canons without civill Authority, in foro Ecclesiastico; yet the Civill Magistrate afterwards, af∣ter due information, concluded the same things, in foro civili, as wee see through all the first 14. Titles, of the first Book of the Code. But out of this it cannot be inferred, that after they have delivered their Advices to the Par∣liament, they cannot conclude it, if they have the power of a Synod. 4. Yea I may say more, that the Ministers of the Primitive Church, in the first three hundred years after Christ, exercised this Authority against the Civill Magi∣strates will, in foro Ecclesiastice. But, praised be God, our Ministers have no cause to doe so. 5. Neither is it credible, even according to the Independents their own Tenets, that those they hold to be Lay-men only should by their lay-Authority

build us up a Confession of Faith, create, and depose Ministers, exer∣cise the power of the Keyes in Censures, and Excommunications, &c. Neither read we of any Prince, or Civill Magistrate, that ever usurped that power. Neither remember I any, that ever maintained it, besides Sectaries. 6. Yee your selves will not admit them to be ruling Elders, how then admit ye them to bee Su∣preame Ecclesiasticall Judges, in Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall matters, viz. in matters of Doctrine, &c.

Some will object, but what, if a Ministers Conscience cannot assent to that, which the Assemby passes by plurality Votes? in such a case may he not oppose himselfe to the rest?

Answ. He may oppose himselfe in reasoning the businesse all along till it come to be concluded by Plurality of Votes: but after that it is once concluded, he must in foro externo, according to Gods ordinary providence let it passe, yea sub∣scribe unto their Iudgements, for in such a subscription, he subscribes not, that it is his particular judgement, or according to his private Conscience; but that it is the publick Iudgement of the Assembly. 2. And if ye will oppose the whole Assembly, because, that it is against your particular judgement, and Conscience; so shall they all oppose you, silly man, and so nothing at all shall be concluded. 3. Yea, were it not, as I say, no Senate, no Councell, no Par∣liament, no Ecclesiasticall, or Politicall Assembly could ever conclude any thing; for very hardly will ye finde any, wherein some man doth not dissent from the rest. And finally, how ever one man in an Assembly, dissenting from the rest, might oppose the Iudgement, before it be given, or after the Iudge∣ment, for some scruple of Conscience, which yet is not lawfull; yet might he not at any hand doe it, in writing of Apologies, against their Iudgement, much lesse, before that they give out their Iudgement, and for feare they judge other∣wayes, then he would have them judge.

10. All this Answer is only against a Syncategorema of my Observation, viz. this, where things are carried by Plurality of voyces, which asserts nothing at all, as all Logicians know; but nothing to the whole Demand, 11, Put the case, that this Syncategorema were omitted, yet this Interrogation should stand in its full force; so as the Reader may see. 1. That this Pamphleters ayme is not so much to answer, as to elude this Demand. 2. That the Ordinance has nothing against Plurality of voyces. 3. That it justifies not your Apologists, being members of the Assembly, to publish Apologies, as they have done. 4 Much lesse doth it, more then allow, so much as they have done; or if it doe, it should consequently allow all such, as have the gift of writing, to fall upon you all, and pay you soundly.

A.S. 2. Obser. Whether, in taking such resolutions, they should not con∣sequently resolve themselves, to quit the Assembly, and to appeare, as Parties.

M.S. 1. Denyeth the Antecedent, in the first consideration; But A.S. has abundantly proved it,

2. M.S. telleth us, that he utterly disliketh my Consequent, viz. that the five Ministers quit the Assembly, and appeare, as parties: for then the worthy Commissioners of Scotland should likewise quit the Assembly, for, that they replyed to the Apologie.

A.S. 1. I know well, ye utterly mislike my motion. 2. Neither believe I, that this Argument proceedeth of any great good-will ye have, that the wor∣thy Commissioners of Scotland should sit in the Assembly. It may be ye wish them a faire wind to carry them home safe to their Countrey. 3. I deny your Consequence, for it appeareth not, that they did reply to the Apologie: nei∣ther name they the Apologists. 4. And howbeit they had written against them, yet should it not follow; for they writ in defence of a Discipline, alrea∣dy received in Protestant Churches, whereunto the Parliament and Synod in∣tends to conforme theirs. Item, of a Discipline, already approved by the Church of England. and no wayes condemned by any lawfull publick Autho∣rity, either Civill or Ecclesiasticall. 6. And against a new Sect, never as yet received or approved in this Island. 7. If that should follow, it should like∣wise follow, that all they, who did write against Antinomians, or in case any of the Divines of the Assembly should write against Anabaptists, and other Hereticks, who should be condemned by it, that they, in such a case, should quit the Assembly: but perchance you will deny the Consequence. E. you must deny the Antecedent. 8. Forraigne Churches have complained to the Assembly of your Apologie, but not of the Reformation cleared; and there∣fore the Synod is bound in conscience, either to avow and make good the Apo∣logie, or to censure and punish the Authors of it condignly, at least if it be minded to entertain Brotherly correspondence with them. It is not needfull to fill up my paper in observing of all this mans impertinencies, and absurdities; this may suffice. Only I am sorry that he should so indiscreetly defame his own Nation, under pretext of praising of our Commissioners: Sir, neither will the Commissioners, nor any Scots-man praise you for this: their honour consisteth not of other mens dishonour; and this is sufficient to make your Book to be condemned in quality of a Libell, if good men pitty you not: but whoever has to do with such Spirits as yours, had need of much patience.

A.S. His third Consideration, Whether such an inconsiderable number in so doing may not be refused by the parties, as in competent Judges.

M.S. will needs have this Consideration to vanish upon his answer to the first and second.

A.S. To that I reply, that since I have confirmed the two former, fol∣loweth from them most necessarily.

A.S. 2. M.S. answers not this Consideration, for that, as he sayes, he had formerly answered it, the which is an handsome, but an ordinary evasion, when men are at a non-plus, and know not what to say. How should he

have answered it, considering that the Question was not as yet so much as propounded, viz. in the two first Considerations? For they onely shew, that so small, and inconsiderable a number should not oppose themselves to so great, and grave an Assembly, and that in case they doe it, they must quit, and re∣nounce the office of Judges. But now the third shewes, that if they faile in this, the Assembly ought to eject them from being any longer of her Body, and take them for parties. Wherein the difference of this from the two former Considerations, is cleere and evident; and consequently it is as cleete, that M.S. has answered nothing at all. But it seemes it is all one to him, pro∣vided that he can escape. And I wish he had done so throughout, or ra∣ther that he had held his peace, then to haue made semblances, as though hee had answered, and so hud-winked his Reader. It had been fairer dealing by far, not to have spoken at all, then to have spoken so little to the purpose.

A.S. his fourth Consideration. Whether this Apologeticall Narration was necessary, when you found the Calumnies, &c. begin by your presence to scat∣ter, and vanish without speaking a word.

M.S. answers, that these serene Spirits (oh abominable flattery!) were the Beames to scatter these mysts. But they begun onely, as he sayes, to scatter them, and that therefore it was expedient, that they should have written that Apologetick Narration to scatter them altogether.

A.S. Experience hath sufficiently shewen the contrary; For their Writings were so farre from scattering those mists, that they have encreased them rather, and have evidenced it to all the world, that the conceit, that men had of their Opinions, was not Calumnies, Mistakes, or mis-apprchensions, (as they would faine have it beleeved) but an apprehension very well grounded; and moreover they plainly shew, that their opinions prove to be farre worse, then ever wee thought.

And admit, it should have been expedient, they should have written at the time those mists began to scatter, yet notwithstanding, it should have been more expedient, that they had written when the mists were at the thickest, when there was no figne at all of scattering. One would have thought it had been more seasonable, that they had written, whilest they were under the cloud, then when they were now gotten out of it, Whilst they were yet unjustified, then when they were already justified.

I spare him in his sublime Conceptions, and pass over his Proverb, which however it may a little poore Rhyme in it, has yet no reason, and serves as little for the purpose he brings it; as also in his Assinine Allusion, of brayed, or breathed.

A little after, not content to have set upon me, he accuses two learned Di∣vines, one an English man, another Scottish, that they have written to stirre up the people against the Independents.

A.S. In the same Consideration saith; The honour the Parliament shewed you in calling you to be Members of the Assembly was sufficient enough to justifie your persons from all aspersions.

M.S. denies it, and pretends, that their private writings are more effectu∣all, and sufficient, to perswade the world of their innocent, then the Declarati∣on of the Parliament.

A.S. For me, I believe, and take it for certain, that the publike Declarati∣on of Parliament is more authentique, then the particular writings of them, that are accused: yea, the very Election, and Admission to the Synod by the Parliament suffice to justifie the Members from any publike accusation what∣soever in matter of Doctrine, and Discipline; For sure so Wise, and Religi∣ous a Parliament would never admit into a Synod, called together for the Re∣formation of Religion, any Heretique or Schismatique, stained, and deformed with Errour. Notwithstanding M.S. brings Reasons for himselfe.

• 1. For that the Parliament being indulgent chose Episcopall men. To which I answer, That the Bishops at that time were Morally Orthodox, being not then accused, or condemned by any publike Authority. As to that he addes, that there are some Members of the Synod ejected out of the Assembly, and cast into prison; I answer, That this was for Delinquencies of theirs, that hap∣pened after their Election; But for that the Independents were not so handled, they were held as Innocent men.
• 2. M.S. sayes, that two worthy Parliament men of a County may not know at first all the Faults in every Towne, &c. A.S. To this I answer, that no more is there any necessity, that they should know every particular man in a County. But it suffices, that they know two Ministers, that are Religious, and of good report, and it should be very strange, if they should not know such a number. But besides this I shall answer more fully in a particular Que∣stion.

5. Consideration, whether this your Apol. Narration, wherein ye blame all Protestant Churches, as not having the power of godlinesse, and the Profession thereof, with difference from all carnall and formall Christians advanced and held forth amongst them, as amongst you, be seasonable, when the Church of God in this Kingdome stands in need of their Brotherly Assistance; and parti∣cularly of that of the Scots (against whom it is commonly thought to be par∣ticularly intended) who at this very time so unseasonable, according to their duty, hazard their lives, and estates for Gods Church, all this Kingdome, and you also.

Here note, that M.S. answereth not to this principall Question, or interro∣gative Preposition, viz. (if this Apologeticall Narration be seasonable, when the Church of God in this Kingdome stands in need of the Brotherly assistance of Protestant Churches) but only biteth at the Syncategorema, or adjacent terme

thereof, viz. not having the power of godlinesse: so that his silence seemeth cleerly to grant the principall Question, which we willingly accept of. As for the Syncategorema, it cannot receive the sense, that hee puts upon it; for the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers speak here of themselves, as contra-distinguish∣ed, or opposed to all other Reformed Churches, both abroad, and within this Island, as appeareth by the beginning of the 2. Sect. p. 4. where they say, Wee were not engaged by education, or otherwise, to any other of the Reformed Chur∣ches; And afterwards, we could not but suppose, that they could not see into all things about Worship and Government, their intentions being most spent (as also of our Reformers in England) upon the Reformation in Doctrine. And after∣ward; And we had with many others observed, that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace, yet the practicall part, the power of godlinesse, and the profession thereof, with difference from carnall and formall Christians, had not been advanced, and held forth among them, as in this our own Island, as themselves have generally acknowledged. Here they oppose themselves, and those of their own profession, to all other Reformed Churches whatsoever, yea, to the first Reformers here in this Island, if England, whereof they speak, be in this Island. It is likewise false; The words of the Apologie are; 1. That they, and many others had but observed touching the non-advance of the power of godlinesse, &c. They are verbatim as I have set them down: Neither cited I those words, all, and among you, as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers words, since I put them in a different Character from theirs: and yet the sense is most true, as I have proved: Neither said I that they say, that other Chur∣ches had no power of godliness: Neither by this phrase, This our Island, un∣derstand you, or can they understand any Reformed Churches, different in Government from themselves, as this M.S. will perswade us, unlesse he hold our Reformers of England, to be out of this Island, since they oppose them∣selves to all other Reformers, and Reformed Churches, both within, and with∣out this Island. So if this speech be intended against all other Reformed Churches, except their own, it must be intended against that of Scotland, un∣less ye deny, good Sir, that of Scotland to be a Reformed Church: neither serveth it you a pin, that they call them deare Brethren, for that must either be by dissimulation; or they conceive that men may be their deare Brethren, with∣out the force of Piety; or they contradict themselves; choose ye what please you, Sir. So this is not my ill eye, as you say, but your ill eye brought home to your own doore; fie upon thee, give glory to God, and render thy selfe to truth, for feare thou render thy selfe to worse.

It is likewise false, that I said, it is intended against Scotland; only I said, it is commonly thought to be particularly intended against the Scots, which appear∣eth cleerly, because sundry Independent Ministers, and others travell to prove it, by the confession of some Scots Ministers. So judge, I pray Christian Reader,

whether this man with this his power of piety, or I, whom he maketh so impi∣ous a Machivilian, speak more like his Machiavilian? I am assured, what ever be thy power of Piety, thou hast no practise of Piety here. No truer is it, that their Proposition is but Indefinite in a Contingent matter, and therefore it may be construed of some Particulars only; for as the rest of the Independents save ordinarily their absurd speeches with meere Possibilities: so doth M.S. which here cannot hold, for, the Apologists say, that they were not engaged by Edu∣cation, or any other wayes, to any other of the Reformed Churches. i.e. Nullo modo, and Nulli Ecclesiae Reformatae; so it is altogether Universall, both in regard of the Subject or Matter, and of the Manner; and of such Churches they speake, in all that Discourse, in that Paragraph, and it may appeare by this their proofe, viz. as they themselves generally acknowledge.

6. Consid. Whether (as it is observed by sundry men of learning, and as ye have noted your selves) ye should not have done better, to have set down your Opinions by way of Theses, and so manifested unto us, wherein ye agree, or disagree with us, or from us, the Brownists, Anabaptists, and those, whom ye pretend to hold the same Tenets with you, in Old and New England, and the Netherlands, then in a Rhetoricall, and Oratorious way, endeavour, in the most part of your Book, to publish your great Sufferings, and extraordinary Piety, and so to move us all to compassion, and ravish us all into admiration, as if ye meant rather to perswade, then to prove them?

Hee answereth, that he cannot answer, since here is no sence; And wherefore I pray? Because the Interrogatory point is put after these words, or from us? Truly, As the word, agree, or differ may by a certain Figure in Grammar, called Zeugma, be understood to be joyned with all those words, so is the point of Interrogation; But it should bee at the end, as it is in the Observations; And whereas it is in the beginning in stead of a Comma, it is either the Prin∣ters over-sight, or mine. But to say, that this great learned Clerk could not perceive this, wherein the most ignorant findeth no difficulty, who can believe him? It is a pretty evasion to elude my Question. Whereas he saith that the Interrogation should have been after Anabaptists as if the Reformed Prote∣stants, who refute Brownists and Anabaptists, should say, we Brownists and Anabaptists, it is but his foolery, which yet we could easily endure, if he answe∣red the Question; Which since he cannot do, I take it for granted, that in this they have not proceeded well, or at least not so well as they might. If I should serve my selfe of such poore advantages, or shifts rather (as easily I might up and down in his, and C.C. Books) I should answer nothing at all, as this Gen∣tleman does. But good men know, that when ever I doubt of sence in them, what ever I do, I deale ingenuously with them, and consult with sundry to find out their meaning; and when neither others, nor I my selfe can find any sense in their writings, I passe it over in silence, not reproving that which I

understand not, or that cannot be understood: But if others understood it, it is a great shame for this great Divine, to have been so dull.

7. Consid. A.S. Whether the Apol. Narr. be published in the name of the Five Ministers, or of all those also, or a part of those, whom they pretend to hold their Tenets? If in the name of you Five only, whether ye Five can arro∣gate a power unto your selves to maintain these Tenets, as the constant opini∣on of all your Churches, having no generall confession of their Faith therea∣bouts. If in the name of all the rest, we desire you would shew your Com∣mission from all your Churches, &c. These Questions have much vexed M.S. and put him to his wits end: he would not answer, but turnes them over unto me, and will have mee to answer; To which therefore I doe answer. 1. Quaestio questionem non solvit. 2. I answer directly, 1. that this Answer I have made to the Apologie, I have done it of my selfe; and have done it by Authority, since I have a Licence granted by him, that by Authority Licenceth Books. 2. I write in defence of all the best Reformed Protestant Churches, and specially of that of Scotland, France, and the Netherlands, to whose Judge∣ment, and Authoritative power in Synods, I acknowledge my Booke to be subject; so I arrogate nothing but with due Dependence and subjection: but the Five Ministers are as Independent, as I am Dependent; as imperious, as I am subject, and odedient to my Superiours. If they will answer, as I, we shall no more contest; They have gained me to them, if I have not gained them to the Church of Christ.

Besides this, These Questions cannot reasonably bee propounded to A.S. 1. for A.S. is no Sectary, neither Independent, Brownist, Anabaptist, Armi∣nian, &c. condemned, or rejected by the Church of England, or any other well Reformed Church. 2. He is no minister, much lesse an Independent Minister. 3. He is not a Suitor for a Toleration of any not tolerated, or intolerable Reli∣gion, as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers. 4. He has not written against the common Faith of Reformed Dependent Churches, as they have. 5. If he had done so, he should judge himselfe bound to give Reason both of his Faith, and answer all those, who would ask for an account thereof. 6. However you turne and returne the Interrogation, yet are you bound to answer.

1. M.S. takes upon him to answer, but answereth not, as we shall, God willing, heare; His first answer is, It is no arrogating, for any Christian, upon just occasion, to make his Confession of faith.

But to what Question, I pray, answereth this? I grant you this, but an∣swer you to my Question, In whose name, &c.

His second Answ. The Confession of Faith in Doctrine, that is in all the best Reformed Churches, is theirs.

A.S. As wide as before, the Question is not of the Confession of Faith, but about the Apologie, in whose name it is published? &c.

2. M.S. For one touching pure Discipline, it was not found in Scotland, whiles the Tyrannie of Bishops prevailed.

A.S. 1. Here he seemeth to acknowledge, that being freed from Episcopall Tyrannie, we have pure Discipline, which I acknowledge to be true. 2. If by pure Discipline he understands Presbyteriall Government, wee had it, when Bishops prevailed, howbeit oppressed by Episcopacie.

3. There is no Confession of Faith (if it be taken strictly) but of some points of Discipline in the Apologie, but we cannot know of them, in whose name: I am not angry at their Confession of Faith, as M.S. saith; but sory for their Schismes and want of Charity: neither is it true, that I have opened other mens mouthes, but God Efficiently, and your Calumnies against the Church Occasionally have opened good mens mouthes against you, Turdue sibi malum cacat; and yee must be content to drink, as ye have brewed for your selves.

3. M.S. 3. The godly learned Fathers, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, &c. pro∣duced no Authority from men, to Apologize for the truth; The Scripture, they Apologized for, bore them out.

A.S. 1. It seemeth by this Answer, that they Apologize only for Scripture, and can produce no Christian Church, that they Apologize for.

2. Tertull. Justin Martyr, and all the Fathers apologized in the name of all the true Christian Churches of their time, and acknowledged themselves, and their Apologies to be subject to the Judgement, and Authoritative spirituall power of Synods; and they were, as Dependent upon them, as ye are Inde∣pendent.

3. Howbeit their Apologies had no Authoritie of men, yet were they able, sure, to tell from time to time, in whose Names they did Apologize.

M.S. 4. The Parliament allowes the five Ministers more, viz. to shew their Reasons; therefore the less, to shew their Opinion.

A.S. 1. This answereth not yet the Question. 2. But the Parliament al∣loweth them not a particular clandestin Assemby, separated from the Generall Assembly. 3, It alloweth them not to print Apologies against all the best Re∣formed Protestant Churches, when they are sitting, in qualitie of Members of the Assembly, and against the Opinion of the most part of the Members there∣of. 4. The Parliament alloweth them not to shew their Reasons a part, without imparting them first to the Assembly, and that without their Consent. 5. Much lesse to be Suitors for a Toleration, or allowance of their Sect: or if it allow them any such thing, I would pray them to shew us an Ordinance for it. 6. What reason, that your extraordinary Sect should have more allowance, then the rest of the Synod? We pray you, in the name of God, to live as Brethren, more humane, as other mortall men, and if ye can or dare, to answer my Questions, as I doe yours.

M.S. 5. A thousand good Christians were glad to heare, how the Five Ministers dissented from the rigid Separation, and closed with the best Refor∣med Churches.

A.S. Note here, that M.S. saith not that the five Ministers dissented from all the Separatists, but only from the rigid Separation. 2. They close not with the best reformed Churches, unless by the best Reformed Churches be meant the Independent Churches. For he calls all our Churches in Scotland, France, the Netherlands, and Switzerland, Episcopall Churches, our Presbyteries, Idols that must be grinded. 3. Hee and his Partie dissent not, in effect, from Separatists, in point of Separation in generall; for they separate themselves from our Discipline, and Sacramentall Communion, as well as they doe. 4. All this answereth not my Questions: I will not reply to his injuries a∣gainst my Person, for they touch not the Cause. Neither envie I him in ill doing.

A.S. 8. Consid. Whether ye desire a Toleration for you Five alone, in your Religion; or for all the rest. Item, If a Toleration, in publick, in erecting of Churches apart? or to live quietly, without troubling of the State? As for the last, appearingly, yee may have it unsought: but for the rest, the Parliament is wise enough, and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God, and the State. My Adversary finds these Questions so newhat too hot for his fin∣gering, and therefore takes it for a point of Prudence, not to touch them, for feare to be burnt. Now then, that he may not seeme to have said nothing, he falls to quarrelling with me about the signification of the word Toleration, and the Parliaments wisedome, because I say, It is wise enough, &c. which he calleth a Contradiction to what I say afterward.

M.S. Toleration, saith learned Cappell, is of things unlawfull.

A.S. Toleration or Toleratio in Latine has many significations; 1. Some∣times it is taken for Patience, and so it is an Act or integrant part of Fortitude, as Thomas, and the Schoole-men speak. 2. Sometimes it signifieth a permission of things, that we cannot mend; Toleranda sunt quae emendari non possunt, And so the Magistrate tolerateth sometimes many things against his Lawes, when he cannot make men obey. 3. Sometimes a permission of things indifferent, that are not forbidden by Law. 4. Tolerabilia Tributa, in the Roman lawes, are moderate Tributes. Tolerabilia saith Calvin, sunt, quae vetus consuetudo com∣probat, Cal. in Lexico Juridico. And we have in Tacitus, tolerare vitam, which is not a thing unlawfull: So that Cappell, if he say so, appearingly, he speaketh not of Toleration, in the whole latitude of its signification; for things indiffe∣rent may be tolerated.

Afterwards M.S. he sayes, that he will not yeeld the one, nor beg the other. i. e. if I understand him, yeeld, that their Religion is unlawfull, or beg a Toleration: what then will he have? an allowance and approbation? will

nothing content him, unless we confesse, that Independency is lawfull; and consequently, that Dependency upon Councells and Synods is unlawfull? This is close home; and so to content you, the whole State, and all the Pro∣testant Churches needs nothing els but that, without any further reason, they come hither and cry, peccavimus omnes.

The other quarrell is my pretended Contradiction in these two Propositions; 1. The Parliament is wise enough, and knoweth what is convenient for the Church.

2. The Civill Magistrate arrogates not to himselfe any directive power in mat∣ters of Religion.

1. But tell me, my good Trifler, what Contradiction can there be here? Is not a Contradiction, an Opposition between two Propositions, the one Affirmative, the other Negative, both singular; or the one Universall, the other Particular, having both the same termes?

Now is there here the same termes, viz. the same Attribute in both these Propositions, are they both singular? or the one Universall, and the other Parti∣cular? where are thy eyes? where is thy judgement? where is thy Logick?

2. Howbeit the Parliament be wise enough, and knoweth, what is convenient for the Church, will it follow, that the Parliament, and every Civill Magi∣strate has a directive power, whereby Intrinsecally they may rule, and teach the Church, which is that, whereof I spake there? 3. By the same reason, any good Scholler, who liveth a private life, and knoweth what is convenient for the Church, should have the like power. 3. Learne they here, that it is not simply wisdome or knowledge, but Gods calling, that can give any such power to any mortall man. 4. What if the Civill Magistrate were a Papist, or a Pro∣fessed Atheist, should his bare knowledge give him any directive power over the Church? I cannot believe thee to be so absurd, or wicked, as to say it.

The rest of his Discourse here, is his ordinary injuries, and words of contempt against my person, which I sleight and passe by as unworthy of an answer.

A.S. 9. Consid. And because the whole draught of this Book tends evermore to a Toleration, and consequently to some Separation. 1. I would willingly know of you, what Things are to be tolerated, or not tolerated in Religion. 2. Not in private persons, but in Consociacions. 3. And particularly, when the whole Kingdome is joyned in one Religion? 4. What sort of new Consocia∣tions of divers Religions it may in good Conscience tolerate, and receive into it? 5. Item, upon what ground Churches may, in good Conscience, make separation from other Churches, that desire union and communion with them? 6. Whe∣ther they, that aime at a Toleration and Separation, be not rather bound to to∣lerate some small pretended Defects, not approved by those, from whom they desire to separate themselves; (and especially when they, that are so desirous of

Separation, are not pressed to be Actors in any thing against their consciences) then to separate themselves from a Church, that testifieth a great desire to re∣forme the defects pretended to be in it? 7. Whether it were not better for them, that aime at Toleration and Separation, to stay in the Church, and to joyn all their endeavours with their Brethren to reforme Abuses, then by their Separation, to let the Church of God perish in Abuses? 8. Whether they doe not better, that stay in the Church to reforme it, when it may be reformed, then who quit it, for feare to be deformed in it?

The Adversary, to Elude these 8. Questions, telleth us, that they answer themselves, and yet promiseth an Answer,

M.S. his first Answer is, that the Five Ministers ayme at no separation, but, as their Brethren the Scots did, from Prelaticall coaction.

A.S. If it be only from Prelaticall coaction, wherefore separate they them∣selves from their Brethren the Scots their Sacramentall Communion, and the Scots from theirs? if they separate not themselves from us, wherefore are they suitors for a Toleration, or approbation of their Religion, since ours is alrea∣dy tolerated, and approved, as appeareth in the French, Italian, and Spanish Churches in this Kingdome? Neither are you compelled to be Actors in any thing against your Consciences, as your Brethren were by Bishops.

M.S. He saith the Church, from which the five Ministers would separate, testifies a great desire to reforme Defects: yet saith he, those Defects are but pretended.

A.S. Our meaning is to reforme Defects, if any there be, such as we ac∣knowledge to be in manners, as amongst you also: or in the administration of Discipline, as may be amongst us all; But as for any Defects in the princi∣pall parts of our Ecclesiasticall Discipline, we see none as yet, that we travell not to reforme, but believe such, as hee objects us in them, to be rather pre∣tended, then Reall: Neither can we, or shall we judge them to be any other thing but pretended, till he make it appeare, that they are Reall. Will He, that we beleeve them to be Reall, because, that he only sayes so? but it is not the first untruth has falne from his pen.

M.S. He would have the Five Ministers quit the Assembly.

A.S. This M.S. supposes, that this last Proposition crosseth my Supposition. But they may stay in the Church to reforme Abuses, if there be any really, (as it is pretended by the Independents) and live out of the Assembly, as many others, who are no wayes their Inferiours. Neither said I, that I wished them to be out of the Assembly, only I propounded a question; whether in conse∣quence of the publishing of their Apologie, they should not resolve themselves to quit the Assembly?

Now, courtcous, and conscientious Reader, be thou judge, I pray thee, whe∣ther

this man hath answered any of my Questions, yea or not, which are all the main points here to be debated.

Quest. I. Whether it had not been honester, and fairer dealing, to have added the Au∣thor and Licencer's Name to M.S. his Booke, then to have omitted them.

I Affirme it.

• 1. because it testifieth a greater sincerity, especially in these Times.
• 2. Because it makes it appear more probably to the world, that it is not a Libel.
• 3. And that it conteineth nothing against the Law.
• 4. Because the Name of the Author giveth authority to the Book, if he be either learned or honest; and the omission thereof may cut off the Authority of it, and bring discredit unto it, especially when the Law for this effect ordaineth it to be added.
• 5. Because when it is suppressed, and the Book a Libell, it giveth too much adoe to the Magistrate to find out the Author, to censure and punish him con∣dignly, according to his demerits.
• 6. Because the Holy Writers did so; and if their Names be omitted in some Books, we know not, whether it was with their consent, or whether they did not put to their names, howbeit not in quality of Canonicall Scripture: or per∣adventure it was, because they were not the Authors, but as it were Gods Secre∣taries, or Scribes; for the Holy Ghost dictated them what they had to write.
• 7. Because it hindreth men from being deceived in their moneys; for sundry times men because of specious Titles put before Books, buy them, and after∣ward find nothing worth their money.
• 8. The adding of the name of the Author, and of the Licencer, with the Licence, will hinder the common people to be deceived in reading of hereticall and unsound in stead of Orthodox and sound Books; So that this being confi∣dered, this Author should have done better that he had added his name and the Licence to his Book.

Quest. II. Whether Mr. Cranford might not justly Licence A.S. his Consid, and Answer to the Libell, &c.

I Susteine the first part of the Question, and deny the second.

As for the first it is evident.

• 1. Because it is conformed to Gods word, as we shall see hereafter.

• 2. Because, that Answer is nothing else, but an Apologie for the Discipline of the Reformed Churches.
• 3. Because, it containeth nothing, contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England, or any other true Reformed Churches, only it hath some new Se∣ctaries for Enemies.
• 4. Because, the Church of England evermore entertained Union with the Re∣formed Churches, that were ruled by that Discipline; and they refused not one another to the Communion of the Sacraments.
• 5. Because, that a Bishop, and the rest of the Commissioners from England, at the Synod of Dordrecht, approved that Discipline, in the name of the Church of England.
• 6. Because in England it selfe, it hath been evermore approved by the King, and Parliament, who granted the Exercise thereof unto the French, Dutch, Ita∣lian, and Spanish Churches, in this very City of London, and sundry other parts of this Kingdome.
• 7. At this present, Episcopall Government being put down, it standeth by Law approved, both by State and Church, as conforme unto Gods word.
• 8. The Kings Majesty likewise by consent of Parliament Licenced it in Scotland.

The second part of the Question may be proved by the contrary Arguments.

• 1. Because, it maintaineth a Discipline, that is not conforme to Gods word, which hath not one word of particular Churches, Independent one from another; of particular Church-Covenants, distinct from that of Grace; of not Baptizing Christians Children; of not admission of Faithfull men, and women, who are without Scandall, unto the Lords Table, &c.
• 2. Because, the Discipline it maintaineth, is repugnant to all other Disciplines of all other reformed, yea of all Christian Churches.
• 3. It containeth many things contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England, as they confesse themselves.
• 4. Because the Church of England never entertained any Union or Commu∣nion with any Church ruled by that Discipline.
• 5. No Commissioners from England ever approved it.
• 6. It hath never been received in England by King or Parliament.
• 7. It hath never been put up here, nor standeth here Legally, as the other.

And therefore the first Legally might have been Licenced, and the other could not be Licenced.

QUEST. 3. Whether any man may not state and determine Questions agitated in Synods, before the Synods Determination.

M. S. BLames me mightily for stating some Questions now in agitation in the Synod.

To the contrary, I conceive, that herein I have done nothing amisse; But for the better stating and determining of this Question we must observe:

1. That there are two sorts of Questions, some that are already determined in Gods Word, and his Church also; Others that are not. 2. That there are some Determinations by publick Authority, as Lawes, Statutes, Ecclesiasti∣call Canons, &c. and others particular, proceeding of private or particular mens Iudgements; The first binds and obliges them, who are subject unto them: the second cannot oblige any man to obedience; and so I say 1. That in Questions already determined in Gods Word by his Church, every man may determine, as God and the Church have determined.

• 1. Because God obliges us to determine our judgements, according to the Determinations of his Word; especially in things that are necessary to Salvation, for the very publication of the Gospell obligeth us to assent.
• 2. If every man determineth not, according to Gods Word, he sinneth.
• 3. If particular men determine not their Iudgement according to Gods Word, and because the thing beleeved is conforme to Gods Word, it is not an Act of Divine Faith.

In these Determinations, according to the Word, I say that the Church Determination is publick, 1. Because God hath endowed her with publick Authority, to determine according to the Determination of his Word. 2. Be∣cause she Iudges not by private authority, as private men. 3. Because Suspen∣sion from the Lords Table, &c. are not Acts of private but of publick Iudge∣ment and authority. This Authority of the Church is not Imperiall, or Magi∣steriall, but Ministeriall, because the Ministers of the Church be nothing else but Gods Ministers, or Servants, and not Lords in the Church.

The Determinations, and Iudgements of particular Persons are only parti∣cular, and a Iudgement of Discretion. 1. Because they proceed not from pub∣lick, but from private and particular persons, even when they proceed from a Minister. 2. Because they have not publick authority to oblige Congregati∣ons, but themselves alone. 3. Their principall and intrinsecall ayme is not to be directions for others, but for themselves, and they doe not helpe to direct others in particular.

This M. S. objecteth, that if A. S. determine it, he anticipates upon the Assemblies Iudgement; but that he must not doe so.

Answ. I deny the Consequence; 1. for the Assemblies Iudgement is publick and mine particular. 2. It is already Iudged by the Church of this Kingdom

that Presbyterian Discipline is not contrary to Gods Word; for if it were, it had never permitted it, to be practised or approved in England; as I have already shewed.

2. To the Minor I answer, That either by anticipating upon the Synods Iudgement, he understandeth an anticipation by a publick Iudgement, and that is impossible to me, for my Iudgement is not publick, but particular; or by a particular Iudgement, and then it is not properly an Anticipation; or if he will needs have it to be so I answer; that if I or any other Christian have lear∣ned any truth in Gods Word, we are all bound to determine our particular Iudgements according to it.

Neither can the long Examination of businesses in Synods, which proceedeth from Hereticks, Sectaries, and others their crafts, malice, or infirmities, hin∣der us from determining the truths according to our particular Iudgements; for if it could, then whensoever any Heretick should start up, and dogmatize against the first Articles of our Faith, denying Gods Infinity, Simplicity, Perfe∣ction, Eternity, Immutability, his Wisdome, Decrees, Power, or Pro∣vidence, and his opinion were to be examined in a Synod, we must begin to doubt and suspend our Iudgements, as so many Pyrrhonians about all those points, which already we beleeved by Faith, and stand gaping for some new Determination of the Articles of our faith from Synods; And so Synods should be most pernicious in making us to lose our Faith, which before we had.

In a word, we have received already the Determination and Resolution of the Independents questions in Gods Word in other Protestant Churches, and the approbation of those Determinations here by the Church of England. And the Discussion of them in the Synod, is not to change Gods Ordinance, but to give contentment unto weake Consciences, if they can receive it.

Again, If this Argument be strong, I retort it against his Sect: If the Quinque Ecclesian Ministers, M. S. and C. C. determine these Questions, as they doe in their printed Bookes here, and Sermons also, as we are credibly infor∣med, they also anticipate upon the Assemblies Iudgement: But the First is true, Ergo, so must the Second also be.

Again, Either this man with the rest of the Sectaries are minded to acqui∣esce to the Determination of the Synod, or not: If the first, it is well, it is more then I expect of them, I pray God they deceive me: if not, what needeth he to sight so much for the Determination of the Synod, which he is determined not to stand unto? would not this seeme to be said in derifi∣on of the Synod?

2. Obj. A. S. In determining the Question, taketh it out of the Assem∣blies hands.

Answ. I deny the Consequence, for it is in their hands by way of publick Authority, publicke Iudgement, and publicke Determination; Now A. S.

or any other particular Determination taketh not away the publick, and Au∣thoritative Determination, Iudgement, or Authority.

As for the stating of the Question, this man will not permit me, and conse∣quently no particular man, so much as to state it in particular, and that for the same reason: But if we may according to our particular Iudgement Determine it, how much more may we state it, since it can no waiess be Determined, unlesse first it be stated? Can the Synods stating and Deter∣mining the question, free us of the obligation whereby we are bound to state it, and Determine it according to Gods Word.

QUEST. 4. Whether the Quinqu' Ecclesian Ministers publish this their Apologeticall Nar∣ration seasonably, yea or not, against M. S. p. 24, 25. &c. that affirmes it.

I Maintaine the Negative part of the Question; his Reasons are; 1. Because, before the publication thereof, the Calumnies, mistakes, mis∣apprehensions of their Opinions, and many of those mists that were gathered about them, or rather cast upon their Persons in their absence, began by their presence againe, and the blessing of God upon them, in a great measure to scatter and vanish, without speaking a word for themselves and cause, as the five Ministers say in their Apologeticall Narration.

M. S. p. 24. of his Booke Answereth 1. That that scattering of mists doth but relate to the people, and onely to some of them, viz. Those that pro∣fesse or pretend the power of godlinesse, as appeareth by the precedent period.

A. S. Reply 1. The precedent period hath no relation to this, for it endeth with a full point. 2. It is not the precedent period, that should in∣terpret the subsequent, but rather the subsequent that should serve for in∣terpretation to the precedent, unlesse yee put the Explication before the Text. 3. Because it is said absolutely. 4. They themselves beleeve now at this present, that this relateth to others, as yee may see, p. 15. where they speak of those, who incited the State, not to allow them a peaceable practise of their Conscience; and of some others, who did write Bookes against them, whom they accuse also of mis-apprehensions, and mistakes of their opinions. 5. Put the case it were so, yet was it not so seasonable for them then to write, as before.

M. S. Answereth 1. That many of these mists and not all. 2, That they did but begin to scatter.

A. S. Iust, but it was not so seasonable to write, when any of them, as when none of them begun to scatter, or after, as before they begun to scat∣ter: so to speake Morally, that Apology was not seasonable, since it was lesse seasonable, then it would have been formerly.

M. S. Their motions were like the lowrings of an unconstant

morning, in which the mists ascend, and anon descend, and by and by ascend, and turne into a Scottish mist, that will wet an English man to the skin, as our usuall Proverb is.

A. S. 1. This is but a Simile, Quod nil probat. 2. It is to be noted here, how he noteth this Proverbiall jeer of a Scottish mist in a different sort of letter, as conteyning some particular mystery, and consequently worthy of the Readers particular observation. 3. Yet I may say, that the Independent mist is more able to drown all England, Scotland, and Ireland, then a Scot∣tish mist the outward part of an English mans cloathes; and so will all true English, and Christian hearts judge.

If any thing have befallen you since the change of the time of your Exile (more imaginary then reall) it was your owne fault, in seducing the people, in a clanculary way, and in making of clandestine Assemblies and Conventi∣cles, which good Ministers could not endure, seeing that nothing could con∣tent you, unlesse that all should stoop under you.

Neither hath your Apology any waies diminished any ill, but rather ta∣ken away the good opinion they had of you.

Afterwards M. S. accuseth not only the people, but also Mr. Rutherford, and Mr. Herle, and sundry other Ministers.

A. S. his second reason is, They who are called by the Parliament, and admitted by the Assembly of Divines into the Assembly (howsoever that cal∣ling was to finde them good, and not to make them so) are supposed by them to be innocent, and not culpable (and especially after that they have sate long in the Assembly of Divines, with honour and good respect) and consequently they are sufficiently vindicated from all false Accusations, and have no need to Apologize for themselves, that being farre away more suffici∣ent to justifie them before the world, then any Apology whatsoever, that they can write for themselves.

But the Apologists were so called, &c. Ergo.

This is the sense, and forme by me intended of my Argument in the fourth Observation, and not that that M. S. putteth upon it.

As for his instance of the Bishops against the first Proposition, that they were called by the Parliament to the Assembly, and yet they were not for all that supposed to be innocent, or vindicated, I Answer 1. That the Bi∣shops were not admitted into the Assembly of Divines, as they were. 2. If they had been admitted, and continued as long as they, without reproach, how can any doubt but that their sitting there should have served them for a sufficient justification and vindification of their honour, in foro externo, be∣fore men, since it is not morally to be presumed, that such a grave Senate will call, or such a holy Assembly of such Learned and Reverend Divines will admit and retaine so long together any scandalous persons in their As∣sembly; So this being testimonium alienum, non proprium, and publicum non

privatum, without all doubt it was sufficient to justifie them, and more then any thing they can say in their owne behalfe; since they cannot speake as Iudges, but as Parties, who are evermore justly suspected.

A. S. 3. Reason. He, or they, who are sent by authority of Parliament into Scotland, with the Parliaments Commissioners, to treat of an extraordinary great Reformation of Religion in England and Ireland, & for the preservation of the Religion in Scotland, in bringing them all to uniformity according to Gods Word, and the Example of the best Reformed. Churches, and have ended the businesse with them, are not morally to be presumed, to be culpa∣ble, but sufficiently freed from all filthy aspersions, in matter of Religion, that can have been laid upon them, at least in foro externo, wherein only they can be justified by men in this life; for it is not Morally to be presumed, that the Parliament would have imployed any, but Orthodox men, and good men in a matter of so high a concernment, and consequently they needed not to Apologize for themselves, or if they doe so, it was unseasonably done. But the Apologizers are such men.

If it be said, only one of them was such a man:

Answ. It is all one; 1. For in matter of Religion, they lye all under one and the same notion. 2. At least that one needed not to Apologize as he did.

4. Because, being minded to make an Apology, they should either not have made it at all, being Members' of the Assembly; or have done it before their Admittance thereunto, or after the Dissolving of the Assembly. This had been a great deale more seasonable; for it is not fit for a man, to Apologize for him∣self in a cause, wherein he sitteth as Iudge, or when he sitteth as Iudge.

5. We can finde no ordinary Example of such proceedings, either in Scripture or Ecclesiasticall History.

6. Because they did it in a season, when the Church & State stood in need of the Brotherly assistance of all the best reformed Churches; and in that very nick of time, they under-valued them all, as not having the power of Piety, as they themselves; censured their Ecclesiasticall Discipline, as not agreeable unto Gods Word, and called them Calvinians; whereof we have a sufficient proofe, in a Letter sent to the Assembly, from the Synod of Wa∣lachria, wherein it complaineth much against this Booke, because of the of∣fence, that the Reformed Churches received thereby.

7. Because it was published against the Scots Discipline in that very nick of time, most unseasonable, when they were invited to come into England, and when they came to hazard their lives for the Church and State of Eng∣land, and for the lives and states of these very men, who in the meane while were writing against their Discipline.

QUEST. 5. Whether the Quixqu' Ecclesian Ministers should not have done better, to have published their Opinions by way of Thoses, or in some other Didactick way, ra∣ther then by an Apologeticall Narration.

IMaintaine the Affirmative part; 1. Because that of all other, is the most accurate, and easiest way, to manifest cleerly their Opinions by, both to the learned and ignorant.

2. Because all other waies of teaching beget confusion; for in them we cannot discerne that which is Substantiall, from that which is Circumstantiall; as we may see in Comedies, Tragedies, all sort of Verses, long Speeches, Prayers, Dialogues, &c.

3. Because in this Apologeticall Narration it selfe many things are inser∣ted, which touch not the Businesse at all.

4. Because in all other Synods in our Times, Divines proceeded ever∣more in a Didactick way.

5. Because this their proceeding keepeth us in perpetuall perplexity, so as we can never come to know their Opinions; and what ever we can say, we can never bring them to any Declaration of their Opinions, but that they have ever-more some Evasions and complaints, of great mistakes in us, whereof, if any such be, they are the cause themselves; the which sort of dea∣ling is not worthy of the man of God, but proper unto Hereticks and Schis∣maticks, no waies desirous of the Truth, but of strife and contention.

6. Because in it there is much fraud in relating a part only of their story and Opinions, and not the whole, in hiding the black side of the Cloud; yea it contey∣neth some manifest untruths in their Relation, and that even where God and man are called to witnesse; All which a very learned and Godly Divine ma∣keth appeare in his Anrapologia, and offers to shew under the hands of the Independents, yea and of some of the Quinqu' Ecclesian Ministers themselves.

QUEST. 6. Whether the Independents or Quinqu' Ecclesian Ministers come neare to Ana∣baptists, and Anabaptists to them.

C. C. and M. S. deny it.

By Anabaptists I understand not all sort of Anabaptists, as those, that be also Arminians and Socinians, but those who differ from them only in delaying and reiterating of Baptisme (as the word it selfe implyeth) who are very many in number, and make up the grea∣test Sect amongst them here in London, and in other parts of England; for this Proposition is Indefinite and in a contingent matter, which is ta∣ken

by Philosophers to be equipollent to a particular one; and so I cut off the Objection of C.C. who bringeth me an instance from them, who are Ar∣minians and Socinians, of whom I propound not the Question.

And the Question being stated, I maintain the Affirmative part; 1. because they differ only in this one point; neither can any of these two Divines, viz. M. S. or C. C. shew me any further difference.

2. Because these Anabaptists themselves of whom I speake deny it not, but avow it constantly.

3. If it were otherwise, the Independents would not so highly commend them, for Holy men, as they doe in their Sermons, as I shall make it appeare, by good and sufficient Witnesses, Auditors of their Sermons, to any man, that desireth to be further informed, or to whosoever will call it in question.

4. Because, however they were oftentimes desired to joyne with the Pres∣byterians to condemne them, they would never doe it.

5. M. S. in answering my sixt Consideration, where I accuse them of that, seemeth by his silence to cry guilty; yea C. C. seemeth to acknowledge it, p. 10. § 3. of his Booke, when he saith, That some London Anabaptists hold Universall Redemption, and that with a doubting Adverb, if information may be beleeved; Ergo he supposeth, that some of them here about Lon∣don beleeve it not.

He Objecteth, that some Anabaptists here doe question, and scruple the lawfull Warre of the Parliament, which the Independents doe not.

Answ. This is not Questio juris, but facti.

2. Not of any point of Doctrine in generall, but of this particular Warre, which some here, yea of the same Doctrine with you, and us also scruple at.

3. Because sundry Independents have scrupled at the Covenant; from whence may be inferred, that they scrupled at the lawfulnesse of this warre grounded upon the Covenant; and neverthelesse yee owne them for yours.

4. Because you say, that some only scrupled: But some neither scrupled at it, nor beleeved the Universality of Redemption, who are more in number and Authority; Ergo At least this great number of Anabap∣tists, differ very little from you; since they differ from you in this only point; And so I have done you no wrong. Neither say I, as you untruely will make the world beleeve, that yee are Anabaptists, but that yee come very neare up to them. As for that Question, which he propounds, whether every one that scruples at the Baptizing of his Childe, be to be Excommuni∣cated out of a Presbyterian Church, or to be accounted solely for that Opinion unregenerate, and in state of Damnation.

Answ. This Question is not to the purpose, and yet to give some content∣ment to this Scruple, if he can receive it, I Answer 1. That here is Falla∣ciae plurium Interrogationum, whereby he propounds many Questions as one,

to the end that giving but one Answer, he may intangle me, by his sophisti∣cations: and therefore I answer to every one a part, 1. To the first that the Anabaptists, whose cause he pleadeth, scruple not, but define it, as certaine. 2. If after sufficient conviction, and their scruple abundantly satisfied, they remain pertinacious, and will not be baptised amongst us, it is no more a reall but a pretended scruple, accompanied with a reall pertinacious breach of charity, and a Schisme, which meriteth the sentence of Excommunication. To the 2. it is not to us to judge absolutely that he is not regenerate or that he shall be damned: but well thus, that the way, wherein he is, qua talis, is not the way of Regeneration, or of Salvation: but of damnation, according to the ordinary course of the Gospell, so long as he continueth unpenitent, and so contemneth the Church of God, instructing him according to Gods Word: And that if he be a visible subject, or Citizen in Gods Church, which is his Kingdom, and City, he must be subject unto the Lawes and Govern∣ment thereof, otherwise be gone to some other.

QUEST. 7. Whether the whole Church, and every member thereof hath the power of the Keyes, or full Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction.

LEast as blind men, we should quarrell one with another, not knowing up∣on what grounds, or wherefore; it will not be amisse that we expound the termes of the Question, then state it, and afterwards we shall easily per∣ceive, what is the force of our Reasons, and those of our Brethren, and of the two which be the weightiest, and beare downe the scale.

As for the termes; As in all others, so in this Question there be two, 1. the Subject, and that is the whole Church, and every member thereof. 2. the Predicate, or Attribute, and that is power of the Keyes, or Ecclesiasti∣call Iurisdiction.

As for the word Church, or Ecclesia, I take it, 1. generally for any As∣sembly, or company of men, or Angels evocated or convocated together. 2. More strictly, for any Company of men any waies gathered together up∣on whatsoever occasion, or for whatsoever end, Act, 19.39. 3. for a holy company of men, and Angels: so it is taken by Divines, and it may be defi∣ned, a Company of Angels and men, called out of their naturall estate, by con∣venient meanes, to supernaturall felicity.

The words, Men and Angels expresse the materiall part of the Church, viz. intellectuall Creatures, which are only capable of calling, and of supernatu∣rall Glory, whereunto they are called.

The words following declare the forme of the Church.

By their naturall estate or condition, I understand either their estate of integrity, as that of the good Angels, who continued in their Originall puri∣ty, and of the wicked, who afterwards apostatized, and of Adam & Eve before

their fall; or of corruption, such as is that of all mankind after our first sin.

By the word, called, here, must be understood the act of vacation by Gods word, either internall, speaking unto Angels, or mens Consciences, by the light of nature, or supernaturall Inspirations, 1 Cor. 1.9. 1 Pet. 5.10. 1 Thes. 2.12. and 4.7. or externall, such as is the vocall, and written word of God, or any other externall signe, presented to our outward Senses by him; as 1 Jo. 1.3. 2 Thes. 2.4. Heb. 1.1. And therefore the Elect, before they be borne. and called, are not properly or actually, but meerly, potentially, and vertually members of the Church, 1. For how can he be a member of the Church who is not yet in Rerum natura? 2. By the same reason, the Church should have been actually before the Creation of the world, and before she was created, from all eternity; for God elected his Church, from all eternity: 3. Men of age should be actually members of Christs Church without Faith; for they have not actually Faith by Election, but by their efficacious Vocation. 4. And howsoever the Decree of Predestination, or Election, be requisite, and be the first cause of the Church, and of all the members thereof, and it being put, all the second Cau∣ses must needs be: yet makes it not them to be, when it is its self, but in their own time and in due season, when it is put in execution by some externall act of Gods Almighties power, w^ch can not be eternal, as his Decree; but temporal. 5. Because Gods Church is an House, a Family, and a City, which can not be built of stones, that are not, or composed of Domesticks, and Citizens, that are not in this world. 6. A man cannot be the Brother of Christ and member of his church, before he be regenerate, or born againe, how much lesse, before he be generated, or born; unlesse ye will say, that he may have his second birth or generation before he have the first?

Out of this naturall estate, &c. here is expressed Terminus a quo, et ad quem, from whence, and whereunto the Church, or the members thereof are called; Terminus a quo, or from whence, is from the estate of Nature pure and in∣corrupt, not incorruptible as was that of the Angels, and of man before his Fall: or of corrupt nature, such as hath been that of mankinde since their Fal. Terminus ad quem, or whereunto they are called, or which can intend, is Grace in this life, and supernaturall Glory in that to come.

By supernaturall Glory must be understood supernaturall Beatitude, or fe∣licity, which is the last aym, their summum bonum, or greatest good and per∣fection, whereunto they tend, or which they can intend: And this, in respect of entire and pure or immaculate Nature, is absolutely called Beatitude or Feli∣city: but in regard of corrupt Nature, Salvation; for it is not a man without sin, as Christ, or Angels that never sinned, but Adam & his posterity, that are said to be saved from their sins, and misery whereunto by sin they are subject.

Means are called convenient, when they are fit to effect that which by them is intended; such in respect of Angels was the Law of Nature, printed in their Understanding, answerable to their spirituall Nature;

some Supernatural Precepts also, for they were bound to beleeve the Trinitie: answerable in Adam before his Fall was the Law, and such respect to the spirituall and corporall nature, whereof he was compounded, as the Morall Law, and some supernaturall Precepts to beleeve the Trinity, &c. proportionate to the end and aym, viz. supernaturall glory, whereunto he should tend, and which he should intend; And in regard of all mankind since our Fall, is the Covenant of Grace, and the means to fulfill it, as Faith, Hope, and Charity.

The Church in this vast and large signification contains 1. in it self the com∣pany of Angels, 1. because the Scripture sayes so, Heb. 12.22, 23. 1 Pet. 1.12. 2. because they are our Fellow-servants and our Brethren, Apoc. 19.10. and 22.9. & they belong to one society with us, 3. because the Angels are our Con-disciples in studying the Gospel with us. 1 Pet. 1.12. 4. Because they are Subjects with us of one Celestiall Republike, and Citizens of one Celesti∣all City: 5. Because we aspire to the same Beatitude and Felicity with them, viz. to the vision of Gods face, and ardent Charity: 6. Because, in respect of our spirituall part, and the Faculties thereof, our Intellect and Will, we are capable of the same union with God. 7. Because Christ is head of the Angels; as well as of Men, Col. 2.19. Eph. 4.15.8. Because he is their Creator, Con∣servator, Mediator. God gathered in one, all things in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are in Earth, and every thing in them, Eph. 1.10.9. Because the Angels adore Christ, Hebr. 1.6.10. Because all things, yea, the Angels are subject to Christ, Hebr. 1.7.

2. It contains men in Heaven and in Earth; for the Church in Earth and in Heaven differ onely, as a man travelling, and one arrived to his Port or home. All these that are, or shall be saved, those that are already born, and to be born; regenerate, or to be regenerate, howsoever they that are not yet born, or regenerate, be not actually members of the Church, till they be born and regenerated.

This Church in regard of its materiall parts, integrity, and quantity, may be distinguished, 1. into the Catholike or universall, and particular Church.

The Catholike Church is that, which before we defined, composed of all the Elect, Angels and Men.

2. Again it is to be observed in passing of this Word, Catholike Church, that it is not a term of Scripture; nor was any man called a Catholike in the Apostles time, if we beleeve Pacianus epist. 1. Ad Sempronianum; neither in their time was the Christian Faith spread Catholikely, or Universally through all the World: and hence many Protestants infer, that the Creed, I mean that of the Apostles, was not framed by them: Neverthelesse we have some terms in Scripture equivalent unto it, as that of 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, Heb 12.23. that signifies a generall Assembly; Item the City of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, ver. 22. the Church of the first-born, which are written in Heaven, &c. The Church then is called Ʋniversall, 1. in respect of her Intrinsecall, and Essen∣tiall

form, viz. internall vertues. viz. Faith, Hope, Charity, and the Spirit of Christ, which be all, and the same in all the members thereof; for howsoever the Church, in respect of some Gifts, otherwayes called 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, and by the Schoolmen, gratia gratis data, is distributed by Christ unto some of her members, not so much for their own, as for other mens use and salvation to be a corpus heterogeneum dissimilare, an Organicall Body composed of di∣vers parts of different names and natures one from another, and from the whole Body having different functions, and operations, as of prophecy, go∣vernment, of Miracles &c. as a man of his head, legs, and arms, whereof the one is not of like nature or like name with an other, or with the man; for the leg is not the head, nor a man as the Apostle declares: neverthelesse in regard of her spirituall and saving gifts, as Faith, Hope, Charity, &c. wherein consists her intrinsecall form, conferred upon the Elect, for their own use, otherwayes called by Schoolmen, gratia gratum faciens, Grace that makes us acceptable to God it is totum homogeneum, or similare, a similary Body, Composed of the like parts, whereof every one hath the same name, and nature one with another, and with the whole Body; for all the members of Christ have the like Faith, inclining to the like Acts of Beleef; the same Mysteries; and a like Charity, inclining to the like Acts of love to all men, and especially to the Houshold of Faith: So every particular Church is a Church, one as another, and as the universall Church, I speak here of the redeemed Church; for the Church of Angels, and of men, before their Fall, be not parts homogeneall, with the redeemed Church, because of their dissimulary Covenant, and intrin∣secall formes and vertues.

Item, the Church may be denominated universall, in regard of her ex∣trinsecall and accidentall forme, consisting 1. in the externall profession of her intrinsecall Christian vertues, by confession of her Faith, Hope, and exer∣cise of Charity, and holinesse of life. 2. In her participation of the holy Sacra∣ments, according to Gods Word. 3. In her extrinsecall sound Discipline, and Government, which should be in every Church. Againe, the Church may be universall, in respect of some Circumstances, viz. of time, place, per∣sons, and Ages; 1. of time, because the Christian Church from her first insti∣tution by Christ till the end of the world shall never decay; 2. of place, not positively, as if it were in all places, but negatively, because it is not excluded from any place, as that of the old Testament, limited within the confines of the Holy Land, but spread through all the world, Psal. 19.5. Mat. 26.13. Col. 1.6.3. of Persons of all Ages, Sects and Conditions, for no man is exclu∣ded from the Gospell; neither Iew, nor Greeke; neither Servant, nor Free∣man; neither Male, nor Female, Gal. 3.28.

2. And it may be distinguished according to her materiall, or integrant parts, into the Church of Angels, and of men: But the Scripture has very little of that of the Angels, so as we may let it passe.

3. That of men may be distinguished according to the state, and conditi∣on thereof into that, which is Militant here on earth, fighting against Sathan, and Triumphant and victorious in Heaven, reigning eternally with God.

4. The Militant, according to the state thereof and Covenant, is distin∣guished into that, which was before the Fall, & that after the Fall: The Church before the Fall was composed of Adam and Eve alone, and governed by the Law of Nature, and some supernaturall Precepts: and called to supernaturall felicity, I say composed of Adam and Eve alone, viz. actually; for howso∣ever before the creation of Eve, God or Christ was his head; yet could he not be his Head as of a Church, 1. For a Church is a company not of the Head and one member, but of the Head and many members, Rom. 12.5. Eph. 1.22, 23.2. Because before the Creation of the Woman, there was no symbolicall Law, nor Sacraments of the Covenant, ordained by God, as the Tree of Life. 3. Because the Church, is a Family, a City, a Kingdome, which cannot consist of one member, Col. 1.13. Rom. 14.17. 1 Tim. 3.15. Apo. 21.2. Matth. 13.11. Item a body composed of sundry members, 1 Cor. 12. a flocke, 1 Pet. 5.2. which is not composed of one sheep; yea, after the Creation of Eve, it was not a perfect or compleat Church: but in fieri, ten∣ding to perfection, by the propagation of mankind, and perfected in its fieri when it was breeding; for to a perfect Church, is requisite a Ruler or Ru∣lers; and some to be ruled, and not one alone. 2. Because the Church is a Society, like to that of a Kingdom, or a City, which can not consist of two persons only. 3. Because howsoever three may compound a Colledge, yet can they not make up an Ecclesiasticall, or politicall Society. 4. Because in a Church there must be power of Excommunication, which cannot subsist in two; for if the one should Excommunicate the other, the Church should perish, which is repugnant to the nature of Excommunication, which is not given to the destruction but to the conservation of the Church, 1 Cor. 5. 5. Be∣cause it was imperfect in its ayme, in respect of man, for it brought no man to felicity or glory. 6. Because to every Reall Church correspond some Re∣presentative Church, which is a sign of the Reall, and not altogether the same, but there could be no representative Church before the Fall, correspondent to it, different from it selfe, because these were but two persons not differing from themselves, notwithstanding it might have been represented by an Am∣bassadour, but not by a Church.

The Militant Church after the fall is that, which is redeemed by Christ, cal∣led in him, to the forgivenesse of their sins, and eternall Glory.

5. This in regard of time and state is either before Christ, as that of the Old Testament, wherein Christ was obscurely revealed, or of the New, since his comming, wherein he is more cleerly revealed, which for this cause is called the Christian Church; partly because it is since Christ, partly because Christ is more visibly revealed unto her; partly because he in Person revea∣led

himselfe and his Gospel, for the Law was given by Moses, but Grace was given by Iesus Christ, Iohn 1.

The particular Church is only a part of the Universall or totall Church; And as the universall is universall, 1. In regard of Time, which comprehends all the Churches of all times. 2. Of place, which comprehends the Churches of all places, or through all the world. 3. Or of Persons, which compre∣hends all forts of persons: so the particular, is either 1. in regard of time, which only comprehends in its selfe, the Churches of a certaine time, as that of the Old Testament, which was before the comming of Christ in the flesh; and that of the New, which is since his comming: So we call the Church, Primitive, that which was before our times, immediatly after Christ his com∣ming, and some time after. 2. Or in regard of places, as when we say, that a Church is Nationall, which is in one Kingdome or Republick; Provinciall, that is in one Province; and Parochiall, which is confined within the limits of one Parish. 3. Or in regard of Persons, which comprehends a certaine number of persons, of one or divers places.

Here it is to be observed; 1. That the Church may be denominated uni∣versall, or particular, either absolutely, or respectively in relation to another bigger or lesse: so Absolutely the universall Church comprehends in its selfe all the Churches of all times; of all places; of all forts of Persons, Angels and men; of all Estates, or conditions and Covenants; As that in the Covenant of integrity; naturall, or supernaturall, as of Angels and men before their Fall, and that in the state of sin under the Covenant of Grace; and in the state of Glory. And according to this consideration, the Church of the An∣gels, is one particular Church; That of Mankind, another; The Trium∣phant, and Militant, two others; and in a word, all the parts thereof, may be called particular Churches.

Respectively the Church of Mankind, is an universall Church, in respect of its parts, as of that before and after the Fall; the Triumphant and Militant: so the Church after the Fall, is universall in respect of that of the Old and New Testament, which be its parts: and the Christian in respect of its parts in Heaven and on Earth; of the Primitive, and that of subsequent times: that which is in all the world in respect of its parts, in divers Kingdomes, Pro∣vinces, &c. But that which is most to the purpose in this our Discourse, is the Catholick Christian Church here upon earth.

6. Againe, the Militant Church (whether she be considered, according to her universality and totality, or particularity in her severall parts, and Assemblies) in respect of her internall and externall forme, is either visible, or invisible. The invisible Church is that which cannot be seene, but only is beleeved by Faith. The visible is that which we see or behold; where it is to be observed: 1. That the word visible, is not to be taken here strictly, for the object of the sight alone, or the word, see, or behold; for the act

thereof; but in a more full signification, for that which any waies is percep∣tible by the eye, or any externall, or internall Sense, or by naturall Reason; such as are the confession and profession of Christian vertues, the exercise of their externall Acts; whereof some be apprehended by the sight and Eye, as the acts of Charity; some by the hearing and Eare, as the confession of Faith; some by feeling, as the assistance and attendance upon the Sicke; some by the internall Senses; some by Act of Reason only: and the reason of this is, be∣cause the word visible must signifie all that, which, is denyed by invisible; now invisible signifies a negation of all, that can be apprehended by any Sense, or Act of Reason, Ergo the word visible must signifie that, which can be ap∣prehended by any Sense or Act of Reason, so that it belong to the Externall Form of the Church, which represents the internall Forme thereof.

2. Besides that, it is here to be observed, that the visible Church of it self is e∣vermore visible and conspicuous, but by Accident becomes sometimes invisible, latent, obscure, and unseene; and that 1. either because of the persecution Shee suffers by her enemies, when Shee hides her selfe in the Wildernesse; or 2. by reason of her slitting from one place to another, as when Shee went from Hie∣rusalem to Pella; or 3. because of the weaknesse of the sight of the Seer, as in Eli, 1 King. 9. verse 4. for want of sight, as to those, to whom, as the Gospel, so the Church professing the Gospell, is hid and invisible, 2 Cor. 2, 3, 4.

3. Finally, It is not to be omitted, that this is not a Division of the Churchin∣to two Species, or two integrant parts, or any waies into parts really, but Ac∣cidentally distinguished; For a Church altogether one, in the same time, and place, and according to the same parts may be, howsoever according to divers consi∣derations, and Formes, which be the grounds of divers considerations, it may be Visible and Invisible, as the Church of Geneva, which is visible in respect of her externall forme, viz. Confession of the true Christian Faith, the profession thereof and other christian vertues; Item in respect of her Discipline, &c. And the same Church in respect of her internall Forme, viz. Faith, Hope, Charity, the Spirit of Christ, &c: which be spirituall qualities altogether in∣visible, in the sense before declared, is altogether invisible.

7. The Militant Church, both in her totality, and partiality, may be divi∣ded into two integrant parts, viz. into the Over-seers, that preach, teach, rule, &c. and the Flock, which is over-seene: And they be the two princi∣pall parts, concurring to its integrity, without the which it cannot be a totall or whole visible Church: and therefore a Church without Oversseers is not a whole visible Church: I say a whole or totall Church; for without Pastors it may be a totum essentiale, i.e. essentially a Church, for Pastors are not ab∣solutely necessary for the essence, but for the integrity of a Church. Item, I say without Over-seers; 1. All Over-seers, for it may be, that a Church may subsist without Pastors alone, or Doctoss alone, or Rulers or Elders alone; or Deacons alone, but not without all.

8. The Militant visible Church, whether it be conceived in its universality and totality, or in its particularity in severall Congregations, is either Reall, or Representative.

The Reall Militant Church is any visible Church here upon Earth, com∣posed of all its reall Professors of the Gospel.

The Representative Church, is an Assembly of certaine Persons, or Church-Officers, in an Ecclesiasticall Iudicatory, chosen out of the whole Body of the Reall Church, to represent it, as it is; such be the Sessions, or Consisto∣ries, the Synods, Provinciall, and Nationall.

As for the Reall visible Church, some thinke that it is very probable, that it is never altogether without Iustifying Faith: but it is probable, that where there be very small Congregations of seven or eight persons, they may be all without Faith, and especially, where the Church is corrupt, or where the Members are all vicious and dissolute: Their conjecture will hold more pro∣bable, in great Congregations, in Provinciall, and Nationall Churches. But in a Representative Church, composed of very few Church-Officers, it is very probable, that sometimes, they may all be without Faith, howsoever they re∣present a Church of Reall Beleevers; for to represent Reall Beleevers, it is not absolutely necessary, that they, that are to represent them, be Beleevers, or have the same essentiall and internall Forme with those, whom they repre∣sent; but that they have the externall confession and profession of their Faith, whereby they represent them; nor represent they their Faith, but their pro∣fession of faith: So the Image of Caesar represents really Caesar, without any humane nature, such as is in Caesar: and so may men without Faith re∣present them, that have Faith.

By the word Church we must understand the Militant Christian, particu∣lar, and reall Church, consisting of one Congregation; These being presup∣posed, I put this Conclusion: All Persons in a Church, or the whole Colle∣ctive Body thereof have not Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction.

1. They have not the power to exercise it.

• 1. Because, we read no such thing in Scripture, viz. that ever God com∣mitted the Government of the Church to every idle Fellow, that is a mem∣ber thereof.
• 2. Because, it is contrary to the generall Ordinance of God, 1 Tim. 3. that all Church-Officers be examined and tryed before their Admission; And to the practise of the Old Testament, in the religion of the Levites, that served five yeares in their Apprenticeship.
• 3. Because every particular member of the Church hath not the Ability to Iudge, or Rule, because of his ignorance, and want of learning, for every one in the Church cannot be learned; for some there be that needs are spi∣rituall, some that be carnall; some Babes in Christ, some men: some have need of milke, some of meat, 1 Cor. 3.1, 2, 3.

• 4. Because of their imprudence, for some of the vulgar are somewhat pre∣cipitate and rash in the examination of matters, others very slow in their judgement, some in their speech, and some in all: which is not convenient in so grave matters, in Iudging the Iudgements of the Lord.
• 5. Because some are vicious, and culpable of the faults, or crimes, that are to be Iudged and condemned in others, and therefore are not fit Iudges, to Iudge them.
• 6. Many in the Congregation may be friends, Kinsmen, or allyed with the party that is to be Iudged; and so partiall: wherefore some of the Congre∣gation, at the least in that case, are to be excluded: and by Consequence, the simple Title of Christianity, and profession thereof, or to be a member of the Church, gives not all christians this right, but some other thing.
• 7. If every one of the Church may Iudge, or exercise Ecclesiasticall Iu∣risdiction, then women also, whom Saint Paul commands to hold their peace in the Church, 1 Cor. 14.34. and to be subject in obedience without Iurisdiction.
• 8. All distracted men, and babes should have power to Iudge; and so those that are without Iudgment shold Iudge since they are members of the Church.

It may be answered, that they admit not babes, but those only that are in age, and apparently regenerated.

Inst. But then every member of the Church hath power to Iudge; but men distracted are in age, Ergo they have power to Iudge. It may be answered, that they understand that those only, that are in age, and have the use of reason should be admitted.

Inst. 1. But when hath a man the use of Reason? how shal they define that? It is commonly defined by Philosophers and others, the age of seven yeares, which will make no very able Ecelesiasticall Senator: here the Scripture is desicient, & they will admit nothing in Discipline, but that which is comman∣ded by Christ. 2. What if a man in his old age, begin to dote, they may an∣swer, that then he is excluded because reason failes him. Inst. Then he must be declared not sitting, which may breed division. Jnst. Item, a man may be in age, and yet little skilled in Divinity, for to Iudge in matter of Heresie, and be more vitious then when he was a childe. And if a man be Iudged by babes, children, fooles, and doting old men, it is to be feared, especially if the Iudged be rich, that the Iudgement be the cause rather of division, then con∣cord, so this Discipline being established, all Schismes may break forth con∣troversies and contentions. They may answer that they establish, these that are really, or apparently in judgement of charity Saints, as it may be collected from the Rom. c. 1.2. 1 Cor. 1. Eph. 1. Phil. in the beginning of the chapters.

Reply. But every particular man, in every particular Congregation of the Visible Church, whereof we only dispute, is not, nor can in spea∣king morally as falleth out ordinarily be a Saint; 1. Because the

Church is compared to a Ground, whereof one part is by the way side, the other stony, another thorny, another good; To a Ground, wherin growes Wheat, and Tares; To a Draw-Net, receiving good and bad fishes, Mat. 13. to a Society of wise, and foolish Virgins, Mat. 25. And to a House, wherein there are Vessels to honour and dishonour. There must be Offences, or slanders, saies Christ. Math. 18.7. 2. Howbeit they were all Saints, yet should it not follow thereupon, that they are, all learned, prudent, judicious, and endowed with other gifts to judge, either in matters of Doctrine in Creating of Ministers, and in Excommunicating of Hereticks; or of Discipline, which sometime requires some knowledge of the Civill law, as in Cases of Matrimonie, &c.

As for the Passages of St. Paul; 1. I deny, that he calls all the Members of the Church, Saints Formally; but the whole Body of the Church is so called or denominated, because of the holinesse, which is really or apparently inhe∣rent in some Members or parts thereof, which denominates the whole Body, as when a man is said to see, because of the sight, which is not inherent in all the parts of his Body, but only in his Eye; or wise for his wisdome, which is inhe∣rent in his Soule alone.

2. If it were otherwise, the Apostle should have written untruths in these Texts: for Rom. 16.17 18. he sayes; Now I beseech you, Brethren, marke them, which cause divisions and offences, &c. For they that are such, serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly: and 1 Cor. 5. It is known, that the Ince∣stuous man was not excommunicated. Some of them were also Schismaticks, saying, that they were, of Christ, of Paul, of Apolloes: And what the Galathians were, the whole Epistle testifies; so that according to our Brethrens grounds, there was no visible Church here, and nothing could have been judged.

3. It is not sanctification, or holinesse of life, but Politicall, or Ecclesiasticall prudence, that furnisheth their Abilities: for 1. Sanctification is Gratia gratum faciens, one sort of Grace or gift of the Spirit, that renders us gracious, or makes us acceptable to God: But the facultie of Ruling, and exercising of Ju∣risdiction in the Church, is Gratia gratis data, given gratiously only, but makes us not gracious or acceptable to God, as the Gift of Prophecie of Tongues, In∣tepretation &c. 2. The first is given us, principally for our own benefit: the other principally for other mens benefit: and therfore 3. the first is for to save a man himself: the second to save others, when peradventure he may be damned himselfe, as we see in Judas, who had the grace of Prophecie, whereby he saved others, but damned himselfe, and did preach salvation to others be∣leeving, but damnation to himselfe unbeleeving. 4. The first makes one a good Christian, the other a good Citizen in the exteriour Societie of the Church alone; yea, 5. I may boldly say, that a man may be a good Preacher, or Prophet, or Ruler in the Church, and an ill Christian, if hee preach the truth, and with edification, or rule well, and beleeve not, which may

bee done by a very wicked man, Mat. 7.19, 20, 21, 22, 23. and an∣other may be a good man, but an ill Preacher, Prophet, or Ruler, if he have sanctifying grace, and have not so great abilities to preach, or to rule, as an other, who perchance is an Atheist; or if he be somewhat negligent in the exer∣cise of his charge; The Apostle sayes not that all, that were in their Churches were Saints either really or appearingly, but to all the Saints.

4. It is probable also, and some of them grant it, that all the Members of the Church in those texts of Scripture are called Saints, or holy. 1. because of the holi∣ness of the Covenant. 2. Or holy, because of the holy Confession. 3. Or holy Pro∣fession. 4. Or of the holy Sacraments of the holy Covenant, wherunto they were partakers; or finally, because of their externall Vocation to salvation: But all this makes them not learned, prudent, judicious, nor furnishes them with other abilities, which are needfull for the exercise of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction.

5. But put the case that we should grant them all this, yet can they not e∣scape thus, saying that in so doing, they admit not all those that are actually received in the Church, as her Children, and members, to the exercise of Ecclesi∣astical Discipline, but the lesser part, for there are more ignorant, then lear∣ned, and ill men, then good in the Church; or at least, that have not the gifts re∣quired therunto, and so in rejecting, they are forced to admit some Election, and establish some representative Church by the admission of some, and the exclusi∣on of others; so that in this point they differ not from us, in not admitting a Representative Church, but in admitting a greater and more Vast Representa∣tative Church, then we; and the members thereof of lesse Abilities.

6. Hence it follows, that men have not right to exercise Ecclesiasticall Juris∣diction in qualitie of Christians professing Christ (since women and others have it not) but in some other consideration, which we desire to know, viz. whether it be not for their Abilitie; and so it is not to be found in all.

7. This rejection of some (yea of the greater part of the Church, as women, children, old men, ignorants, Vitious men, and others that have not the abili∣tie to judge, as all unholy and prophane men) and admission of others, that are the lesser part as sanctified men, in whom only consists the Church, is capa∣ble to breed Divisions in their Church, if the people have power to judge; For, accordingly, they will judge in favour of themselves to be admitted, and so procure a schisme and quarrell; for the taking away whereof, the Government accordingly is established, let them take it into consideration, how hard it is for any man, yea for the most part of the Church, to be declared ignorant, im∣prudent, young, of an unripe judgement, and doting, &c. and to the Church, and see the lesse part, which pretends to be the only Church, declared apt and fit to their owne exclusion, and what thereupon may ensue, in a Democraticall Government, upon such filthy and infamous aspersions; in checking the greater part as prophane, it may peradventure stirre up a bellum servile, more dange∣rous to the Church, then that amongst the Romans.

8. The Doctrine that destroyes Gods holy Ordinance, viz. the Distinction, which he has put betwixt the Rulers of the Church, and them that are ruled, and are to obey, cannot be admitted, as our Brethren will confesse.

But the Doctrine that gives to every Member of the Church power and administration of Jurisdiction, in ruling and governing the Church, is such; For God hath ordained some to rule, and others to obey, Rom. 12.8. 1 Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 1 Thess. 5.12. 1 Tim. 5.17. Heb. 13.17. Obey them, that rule over you, and submit your selves unto them.

Now then, if some be Rulers, and others to obey, we cannot all be Rulers, as it appeares. 1. Cor. 12.28, 29. And God hath set some in the Church, Apostles, and Governments, &c. Are all Apostles, &c? Where he sayes that one gift is not given to every Member of the Church, Note that he speaks here of those gifts, or 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, that are called gratia gratis data, not for our own, but for other mens use. Ergo, this order cannot be admitted.

9. No confused Discipline or government of Gods Church can be or∣dained by God; for God is not the God of Confusion. 1. Cor. 14.33.

But that wherein every one of the people hath Jurisdiction, or juridicall power, is a confused Discipline or government. Ergo, It cannot be ordained by God.

The Major will be granted, since it is Gods word:

The Minor is evident; For I put the case, that in a Church composed of some 20000 persons, there be some point of Doctrine to be decided, what disorder and confusion should it not breed, if every one of that huge multitude, yea, eve∣ry illiterate, and idle fellow should come, and propound his idle thoughts? By what wisdome of man could this many-headed beast be reduced to order?

It may be answered, that they should be wise;

But we reply, they are not, nor can that be hoped, or expected in this life: nay, doe any beleeve it, either Donatists or Anabaptists; and howbeit they were all wise to salvation, yet followes it not, that they should all be wise for Government, and Examination of all Church Officers.

10. The exercise of the Discipline of the Church is morally possible; for God will not that his Church be governed by an order that is impossible.

But this Democraticall, and Plebeian exercise of Discipline, is not morally possible, for if there were 20. or 30. points to be judged by such a huge multi∣tude certainly they could not easily discusse, and judge every point. For if every one of 20000 should give his advise, and peradventure be interrupted by some, and then begin his discourse againe, which ordinarily falls out amongst rude people, when should the Examen and discussion of the businesse be ended? Grant to every one of them but halfe an houre, whereas, I warrant you, some should take halfe a day, or halfe a yeare, and say little to the purpose, and yet make 〈…〉〈…〉 of one businesse onely employing 12. hours a day

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counting the Lords day also, should amount to two yeares, and foure moneths or thereabouts; so that here, there is too much delay; for a businesse should scarce ever be judged or ended? what should become of all other businesse? What if in this one question there should fall out 20. or 30. Incidents, whereof every one should take up as much time as the principall Question, which quicke witted men may easily procure; when then should a Question be ended?

It may be answered, that there may be some order taken for deliberating and consulting, which may hinder this, as at Rome, where there were 1000. Se∣nators; and in Paris, where at the Parliament there are 200. Senators. But they permit not every man to discourse, as was ordained by the old fashion of Rome, whereby every one of the Senators had power to tell out his opinion by word of mouth; Senatoribus quibus{que} in Senatu sententiā dicere, jus esto, Aulus Gellius, lib. 3. cap. 8. Neither to give their voice in writing, because of the weak∣nesse of their memories, and to avoid all dispute, and contention, which falls out in discourse, which they call, deliberare ex libello, ex pugillaribus; but hol∣ding their peace, and assenting to two, three, or foure of the wisest, who dis∣cusse it in the beginning, which the Romans called per Discessionem; and there∣fore they were called Agipedes by Lucilius, because they went on foot towards one of them, whose Judgement they followed; The French call it opiner en Bonnet, because in assenting they only take off their Bonnet; Sometimes they say nothing, but Idem, or; Et moy, or, de mesme; or, as the old Romans did, by little stones, writing on them, C.A. or N. to signifie Condemned, Ab∣solved, or, Nonliquet, I know not: such almost as the French use in some Ca∣ses, and in some places, Par Balotes, & Buletins en l'Election des Officiers & Beneficiers, by Bills or Tickets in the Election of Officers and Incum∣bents or beneficed men: So did the Areopagites, and now the Venetians, or per 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, or the stretching out of their hand, as the Athenians did; and sometimes the Romans.

A. 1. I approve the Answer in not permitting all to speak; for many of them cānot speak to the purpose; nor by writing; for many of them cānot write at all.

If the third way be used, then you must choose a certain number to speak, whose voyces must be followed; and 1. that is no lesse to tie them to an implicite Faith, then a Consistorie does. 2. It is to diminish their power in speaking; for their tongues are their own. 3. It is to contemne them, and judge, that some have more authority, then others. 4. What, if some of the people be of an other judgement then any of the rest, how shall they discover it?

The Suffrages cannot be given by little stones, or Ballots; for Writing cannot be used, because many of the people cannot write; and yet all this would take up much time; and if there should fall in many incidents, there should never be an end.

No more that external Signe, in stretching out the hand, or touching the Bon∣net;

for so great a multitude should breed confusion; and besides that, howbeit it might be usefull in a Simple Affirmation, or Negation; yet in a great diversity of judgements it cannot hold.

11. Besides this, the Discipline of the Church may be exercised in all times, yea, in times of Persecution, as in the Primative Church.

But this Democraticall sort of Discipline cannot be exercised in all times, and specially in time of Persecution, which is most ordinary to the Militant Church; for if all the People should so meet together, it could not be without great danger, under an Antichristian Prince; and principally in consulting a∣bout her own conservation, her Counsell might easily be discovered, and the Church of God betrayed by some mens wickednesse, and others folly and im∣prudence, whereas 10. or 12. or 50. of the most wise and prudent may easily meet together without any eminent danger.

12. If a Congregation were great, as of 20000. or 30000. there could not be found a commodious Place to containe them; and this I say by experience, for being at one of their Conferences, there were so many, that we were like to be smothered. And, there happened such a confusion, such partiality and jang∣ling by reason of the pretended equality, that we could reap no profit thereby.

13. Againe, I pray, Is it fit, that for all particular businesses, peradventure some of them very idle, and of small importance, that such a great Congregation should be gathered together, and taken away from their Callings; or that every particular fault should be made known to every particular man in the Con∣gregation? Should all the particularities; or circumstances of most wicked and vile crimes, be examined, discussed, and voyced by so many of the people; what should that be, but to teach them most execrable sinnes, whereof they had never heard before; for it is certain, that many sins are learned in hearing them. God forbid, that in the Christian Church (wherein any Uncleannesse should not be once named; Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, Eph. 4.29. Let not uncleannesse be once named amongst you, Eph. 5.4. Neither filthinesse, ver. 4.) Children in their tender age, should heare of such odious Sinnes, from which their very nature abhorres: And that young people before they know well what is vertue, should heare all sort of vice; That were worse, then the Je∣suits Auricular Confession, and abominable Cases of Conscience; In reading or hearing whereof the Conscience is either offended, or infected.

It may be answered, that it is not needfull to admit them in these Assemblies.

Reply. But the Assembly (say they) is open to all, to the end that all may learne, how to exercise the power of Ecclesiasticall government: If it be open to all, how shall they be kept out? If to the end all may learne, how shall they obtain this end if they be kept out?

It may yet be answered, that there is no lesse publication of odious Sinnes, in white sheets at the Pillar of Repentance in Scotland.

A. That paine is only inflicted on some sins, 2. Neither are the particulari∣ties or circumstances of the sins, declared which should be scandalous. 3. On∣ly the pain is published in generall, but the particularities, that may give of∣fence are concealed.

14. In no Societie, neither in the Government of a Familie, nor of Schooles, or Academies, nor in Kingdoms, or Armies is it permitted to every man promiscu∣ously, without distinction, to judge and vote, but only to the Overseers in their Societies: Wherefore then should that be permitted, yea ordained in the Church of God, which is Gods house, Christs Schoole; Shall there be no place for foolish, and impertinent fellowes to judge in, but only in Gods house, and Kingdome, the holy City, and his Kingdome? For what inconvenience and Absurdities presses the one, the same followes on the other.

This Argument so proposed ab Exemplo must hold, because of the paritie of Reason in both.

It may be proposed in Forme of Syllogisme thus:

There is no Societie ruled by Law, wherein every man exercises the power of Judge.

The Church of God is a Societie ruled by Law: E. In the Church of God every man cannot exercise the power of Judge.

The Minor will be granted: The Major may be proved by Induction; for so is it not in Academies, Armies, Republicks, Kingdomes, &c. E. It may be excepted that it is not so in the Church; But it is unreasonable after a perfect Induction, and Enumeration of all other Societies, that you should except on∣ly against that which is in question: As if I should goe about to prove that Christ, according to his humane nature had a Body, his due dimensions, or qnantitie, because all men have so; But you should except Christ; for so no man can prove any thing; for evermore my Adversary shall except that which is in question.

15. If all the people promiscuously may judge, then they may judge with∣out their Presbyters, and Church-Officers.

But the Consequent is false. E. The Antecedent, from whence it is inferred, is false also.

They will not deny the Assumption, and it may be proved thus; For with∣out their Pastors, and Seniors, the Congregation cannot make a compleat Church, the People being but one halfe thereof, and their Rulers the other: Be∣sides, that there may be some Cases, wherein the People cannot judge alone, as in point of Heresie, and touching the capacitie of Ministers, admitted to Preach.

The Consequence of the first Proposition may be proved thus; For if they be all Judges; and of foure hundred or five hundred, foure or five, or fifteen chance to be absent, the rest may judge, the number of those that are absent; being no

wayes considerable, in respect of that which is present; But so is the Case in the first Proposition.

Item, Because, if of the people, two, three, or foure, yea 20.30. or 40. be absent, the Church-Officers, with the rest, will judge without them: Why shall not then the People have the same power also in absence of the Church-Officers, fince they have all alike power to judge, viz. every man one voyce? This Argument ariseth out of our Brethrens Supposition, viz. that every one has power to judge and rule.

16. I Would willingly aske our Brethren, whether or no they thinke that an Ecclesiasticall Judgement can hold without the Peoples presence and voy∣ces? If it can hold, then the peoples voycing is not absolutely needfull, nor ex instituto divino; For it cannot hold, nor be just, without that which God re∣quires to make it just.

If it cannot hold without the Peoples voyces, I ask againe, whether all the peoples voyces be requisite: or that the major part suffice.

If all; it is impossible Morally; neither see we ever almost, that in a great Congregation all can meet together: or if they meet together, that all consent together, yea, nor in lesser Assemblies,

If the major part suffice, as it must be said, then can it not hold; for if many be absent, and of those that are present, the major part surmount the lesser, by 4.5.6. or 7. voyces, then the lesser part may complaine, that all the people were not present, and so desire the businesse to be remitted to another meeting; so that in conclusion no businesse should ever end, unlesse all the people were present, which ordinarily never, or rarely falls out.

Item, they fall into that very inconvenience, which they presse so hard against their Brethren, viz. that they that are absent, shall be led by the nose, and con∣sent by an implicite Faith to a Judgement of Doctrine, or of Discipline of great consequence, for other mens judgements sake, whereunto Formally they dissented; For if Judgements of Consistories, composed of Church-Offi∣cers alone cannot hold, because then the People should be led by the nose, and assent thereunto by an implicite Faith: no more should the Judgement of the People in this present Case.

The same inconvenience, or worse, should fall out in voycing; for if there were in the Assembly of 20000. 10000. for one part, and the rest for the other; Here all the rest should be led by one implicite Faith to consent against their own explicite Faith; for here things are carried by pluralitie of voyces, which are not weighed, but accompted.

If only the Masters of Families, or all Servants have power to voyce, and if that may not procure partialities, when a Father may draw his sons and ser∣vants to his opinion, to voyce with him, as he will.

19. Besides this, our Brethren must determine, how many they require to

accomplish the Assembly, to the end that the Judgement may hold, and be va∣leable. How many for the discussion and voycing of the businesse? and after it is voyced, and judged, how many to draw up the Sentence, or Judgement; for in this all Nations doe not agree, neither one Senate in the Kingdome with another, in another Kingdome; nor one Senate in the same Kingdome with another; nor one Senate with it selfe in divers times. And if they determine it, we pray them to draw their Determination thereof out of Gods word, since they will admit of nothing concluded by naturall Reason, or drawn from the Law of Nature.

20. We may bring many more Reasons to shew the impossibilitie, or at least the very great difficultic, that is in this sort of Judicatory, as the Case there should fall in many incidents; as about refusing of some of the Judges; some witnesses; the Protestation of the nullity of the Judgement for sundry Reasons; that all the Judges were not well informed of the matter, some of them having given their Judgement before-hand, some having promised to the party to judge so or so, some of them having solicited others to judge so or so; if all these Incidents should be discussed, and passe by the voyces of 20000. men, when should it be ended?

Wee might also bring other Reasons, to shew how that sundry things in this Government are altogether repugnant to Ecclesiasticall Government, as

21. That a man should be borne a Judge in Christs Church without any Election, or Vocation to such a place; But no man taketh this honour unto him∣selfe, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron, Heb. 5.4. And truly there is no reason, that a man, yea that all men should rather be borne Judges in Gods Church, then in the State.

22. The Hang-man, and the most ignominious persons in the world should be Judges here.

23. Nothing could ever be decided: for in case there were 5. or 6. divers Opinions, you could decide according to none: for if you followed that, which had most voyces with it, all the rest would voyce against it, if that which had fewer, they that had more would not suffer it: so what ever should be said, or done, it should be controlled.

24. We only adde Christs Command, Math. 18.17. Tell it unto the Church. 1. Unto the Representative Church, and not to every one of the People; for that should be impossible. This passage our Brethren bring for them, but sure∣ly it makes rather against them; for Christ here establishing an Ecclesiasticall Judicatorie, alludes to the order of the Jewes in their Synagogicall Judicato∣ries, and Sanedrim, in Censuring of Vice, and redressing of the grievances, that Brethren received of Brethren in the Church; for he abolishes not such Ju∣dicatories, Quoad substantiam, since they are grounded on the Law of Nature, but quoad Circumstantias, in so far as they are ordained by Moyses, Captaine,

and the leader of the people of God, or did only bind the people of the Iewes, and had for Object the transgression of the Politicall Law of Moses, &c. yea it is probable, that they were not abrogated at all by Christ among the people of the Iewes, since they were Juris Naturalis, quoad substantiam & Politici, quoadmodum, for he came not to abrogate, but to fulfill the Law: And so hath all the Christian world hitherto understood this Passage, whose Iudgements we cannot easily reject, without some solid ground; and so much the rather, for that since Iesus Christ his time, till some forty, or fifty yeares agoe, or thereabouts, never any man of esteeme did ever dreame of such a Popular, and confused Government, if yee except Morellies; And so is the word, Ecclesia, taken, Deut, 31.28. 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, as the Septuagint translates it, gather unto me all the Elders of your Tribes, and Officers, and Deut. 23. v. 1, 2, 3. it is commanded, that he that is hurt by Bursting, or hath his pri∣vie members cut off; that is, a Bastard, an Ammonite, or a Moabite, shall not enter into the Congregation, or Ecclesia, even to the Tenth Generation: Here Ecclesia, or Congregation cannot signifie the Reall, but the Representa∣tive Congregation; For it had been unjust, to exclude any man from the reall Church, & consequently from Gods Covenant, that desired to be therein. If it had been so, they could not have received any Proselytes, w^ch is against Gods Law, Exod. 23.48. where it is commanded, to admit unto the Passeover all Strangers, that would be circumcised: so that which was said to the Elders of Israel, that were the Representative Congregation, Exod. 2.16. is said to have been said to the Sons of Israel, that were the Reall Congregation, Exod. 14. and the Text confirmes it; for Moses had not charge to say, that the Lord would bring up out of Affliction the Elders only, but also the People.

25. This Doctrine at once condemnes all the Martyrs, and Councells, and all their practise in Ecclesiasticall Government.

26. Our Brethren holde, that the absent part of the Church may give over, or remit their power of Iudging to them, that are present, and that the lesser part are bound to acquiesce with the major part in voycing; where∣fore then may not all the People give over, or remit their power of Iudging to a certaine number of the wisest, such as the Representative Church is, or acquiesce unto their Iudgements?

27. To whom the Apostles, in the first Constitution of the Church, at their last Farewells committed the power of Iurisdiction, and Ordination, to those it is to be committed at this present.

But to Church-Officers, or to the Representative Body of the Church a∣lone, did the Apostles, in the first Constitution of the Church, at their last Farewell committed the power of Iurisdiction, Ordination, &c. Acts 20. 1 Pet. 5. Ergo.

But our Brethren reply, that we cannot shew any Place in all the holy Scriptures, or prophane Authors, where the word, Church, is taken in this

signification, viz. for the Representative Church, or Congregation.

A. Whereunto we answer, 1. That the stile of Scripture must not be sought in prophane Authors, but in Scripture it selfe.

2. Some give some Examples in prophane Authors.

3. In Scripture our Adversaries will never finde any place, wherein the word 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 is taken for all the Reall Parochiall Church, to the exclusion of children, women, all those that have not the use of Reason, and that are no∣toriously vicious, as it is taken by themselves.

4. We on the other side, to confirme the signification, wherein it is taken by us, viz. for the Representative Congregation, present them with these places, 1 Exod. 3. v. 14. Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, i. e. un∣to the representative Body of the children of Israel, viz. the Elders of Israel gathered together, as it is expounded, v. 16.2. Exod. 12. In the institution of the Passeover, v. 3. Speake yee unto all the Congregation of Israel, i. e. the Elders, which were the Representative Body of Israel, as it is ex∣pounded, v. 21. and Reason confirmes it; for they could not in so short a time speake to all the Reall Congregation, composed of so many thousands; nei∣ther could they easily be gathered together into one place, nor could it be done without apparent danger.

Item. Numb. 35.24. in speaking of Murther through ignorance, the Revenger of the blood, and the Cities of Refuge, It is said that the Congregation shall Iudge between the slaine, and the Revenger of Blood, according to those Iudgements; without doubt the Congregation here cannot signifie all the Reall, but the Representative Congregation; i. e. the Elders, 1. Because, so it is expounded, Deut. 19.2. and Iosua 20.4, 5, 6. 2. because it was not for every one of the people, or the Reall Congregation, but belonged to the El∣ders, that were the Representative Body thereof, to Iudge of the Blood.

And Deut. 31.28. Gather unto me all the Elders of your Tribes, and your Officers, the 70. turne it 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. Now if 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 signifie to con∣gregate, By the Rules of Conjugata it followes, that 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 signifies a Con∣gregation, that was congregated or gathered together from amongst the rest. But the Ecclesia, or Congregation, that was here gathered together, was not all the Reall, but the Representative Congregation, consisting of Elders, &c. as appeares by the Text; Ergo.

So it is said, that Solomon assembled the Elders of Israel, and all the Heads of the Tribes, &c. 1 Reg. 8.1.

And that David assembled all the Princes, &c. 1 Chro. 28.1. so the word Congregation, is taken for the Representative Body thereof, 1 Chro. 13.1, 2, 3, 4 for David could not speake to all the Congregation, but to the Cap∣taines, and Chieftaines thereof, as it appeares v. 1. and 4. 5. neither could they all goe with him.

Deutrinomy, 23.1, 2, 3. It is commanded, that neither he who is bursten, or that hath his privie members cut off, or that is a Bastard, an Am∣monite,

or a Moabite, shall enter into the Congregation, or in Ecclesia, e∣ven to the tenth Generation; here the word Ecclesia, or Congregation must not signifie the Reall, but the Representative Congregation; for it should have been unjust and cruell to have excluded from the Church, and conse∣quently from the Covenant of God any of those, that desired to be admitted thereunto. 2. For then they could not have received any of those Nations for Proselytes, to the tenth generation. 3. Because this is repugnant to ano∣ther Law of God, Exod. 23.48. where it is commanded to admit unto the Passeover all Strangers circumcised.

28. If every member of the Church should have power, to Governe, or a power of Iurisdiction in every Ecclesiasticall Cause, Ergo of teaching also, and of Deaconship; for there is a parity of reason in both; for there be some points of Controversie as hard to be Iudged, as it would be to master a Sermon: and it is much difficulter to rule, then to exercise the charge of a Deacon.

But the Consequence is false, as is granted by all; neither can every one of the People assist and give their voyce touching every Almes, that must be gi∣ven to the Poore; yea it were very dangerous that every Poore man should Iudge; for then all the Poore should Iudge one for another, and hunt after the Deaconship, that they might keep the purse, or give their advise upon every point of Doctrine taught, or to be taught; nor should they then need to learne at the Sermons; And before the Pastor should teach the People, they must consult whether his Doctrine be sound, or not; As in governing, we consult whether this, or that is to be done, censured, or not censured.

29. If every man hath power to rule, we need no Ruling Elders; for eve∣ry member of the Church is a Ruling Elder, since he may exercise Ecclesiasti∣call Iurisdiction, as the Ruling Elders doe. But they hold the Consequent to be false. Ergo.

They may answer, that Elders are needfull to debate things before they be propounded to the People; But that is only the duty of a Committee, and lesse then to Iudge; and he who may have a deliberative and decisive voyce may debate the matter; yea the matter being debated by the Elders, may be debated again amongst the People; so that their Debate should besuperfluous.

30. Here to confirme this, we may bring in all those passages of Scriptur, which our Brethren bring against it as Christs Command, Mat. 18. &c.

1 Cor. 5. and 2 Cor. 2. They only have Iurisdiction and power of Ex∣communication in Christs Church, whom St. Paul in those passages com∣mands to cast out from amongst them, and to admit the Incestuous person; But not every one of the promiscuous multitude, but those only, that are of the Representative Body of the Church, those only whom St. Paul comman∣ded to cast out from amongst them, and to admit the Incestious person, Er.

The first Proposition is granted by our Brethren; the second is certain; for that which is in the Text cannot appertaine to every one of the people; This is written to all the Church of Corinth, which was very great, and consequently could not meete together as it is commanded, verse 4. neither could every one of them deliver him to Sathan, as it is commanded. 5. neither can it be shewed from the Text, that this is only said to growen men, that have the use of Reason, that doate not, to the exclusion onely of Children, of those that doate, that want altogether, or in part the use of Reason; and of women. Neither could every one comfort him, forgive him, &c. as it is commanded, 2 Cor. 2.7. and 15. Chapter. For further proofe hereof we shall by and by bring the rest of the passages, that they alleadge, for evidence against them.