A replye to an ansvvere made of M. Doctor VVhitgifte Against the admonition to the Parliament. By T.C.

The Answere from. Nowe if either godly councels / vnto I trust M. Caluins iudgement will weigh.

HEere are brought in Iustin Martyr / Ireneus / Tertullian / Cyprian / and councels / as dumme persons in the stage only to make a shewe / and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing. And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersye / there is no doubt / but M. Doctor would haue made them speake. For when he placeth y^e greatest strength of hys cause in antiquitie / he would not haue passed by Iustin / Ireneus / Ter∣tullian / Cyprian / being so auncient / and taken Augustin / whych was a great time after them. And if the godly councels coulde haue helped heere / it is small wisedome to take Augustine / and leaue them. For I thinke he might haue lear∣ned that amongst the authorities of mē / the credite of many is better then of one: and that thys is a generall rule / that as the iudgement of some notable personage is loked vnto in a matter of debate / more then theirs of the common sorte / so the iudgement of a councell / where many learned men be gathered together / caryeth more likelyhode of truthe wyth it / then the iudgement of one man / although it be but a prouinciall councell / much more then / if it be a generall / and therfore you do your cause great iniurie / if you could alledge them / and do not. Thys is once to be obserued of the reader throughout your whole boke / that you haue well pro∣uided that you would not be taken in the trip for misalledging the scriptures / for that onles it be in one or two poynts / we heare continually (instead of Esay and Ieremy / S. Paule / and S. Peter / and the rest of the Prophets and Apostles) S. Augustin and S. Ambrose / kai to en te phake myron, Dionysius Areopagi∣ta / Clement. &c. And therfore I can not tell wyth what face we can call the pa∣pistes from their antiquitie / councels / and fathers / to the triall of the scriptures / who in the controuersies whych rise amongst our selues / flie so farre from them / that it wanteth not much / that they are not banished of your part / from the deci∣ding of all these controuersies.

And if thys be a sufficient proofe of things to say / suche a Doctor sayde so / suche a councell decreed so / there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne / nothing so false / but I can make true. And well assured I am / that by their meanes / the principall groundes of our faith may be shaken.

And therfore / because you haue no proofe in the worde of God / we comfort our selues / assured / that for so muche as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Bishops and of other things / which are in question / be not in hea∣uen / that they wil fall and come to the ground / from whence they were taken.

Nowe it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earthe / and that they are of men and not of God: The answearer goeth about to proue / that they came yet out of good earthe / and from good men / whych if he had obtained / yet he may well know / that it is no good argument to proue that they are good. For as the best earth bringeth forth weedes / so do the best men / bring forth lies and errors. But let vs heare what is brought / that if thys visarde and shewe of truthe be taken away / all men may perceiue / howe good occasion we haue to complaine / and howe iust cause there is of reformation. In the first place of S. Augustine there is nothing against any thing whych we hold / for thys / that the church may haue thyngs not expressed in the scripture / is not againste / that it oughte to haue nothing / but that may be warranted by the scripture. For they may be according to the scripture / and by the scripture / whych are not by plaine termes expressed in the scripture. But against you it maketh muche / & ouerturneth all your buil∣ding in this boke. For if in those things whych are not expressed in y^e scripture / that is to be obserued of the Church / whych is the custome of the people of God / and decree of oure forefathers: then howe can these things be varyed according to time / place / & persons / (whych you say should be) when as y^t is to be retained / which y^e people of God hath vsed / & the decrees of the forefathers haue ordained. And thē also how can we do safelier / then to folow the apostles customes and the churches in their time / which we are sure are our for fathers / & the people of god.

Besides that / how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the pa∣pists in such things / which were neither the people of God / nor our forefathers.

I wil not enter now / to discus / whether it were wel done to fast in al places according to the custome of the place. You oppose Amb. & Aug. I could oppose Ignatius and Tertullian / wherof the one saith it is (nefas) a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day / the other / y^e it is to kil the Lord / & this is the inconue∣nience that cometh of such vnlearned kinde of reasoning / S. Ambrose sayth so / & therfore it is true. And although Amb. and Aug. being straungers and priuate men at Rome wold haue so done / yet it foloweth not / y^t if they had ben citizens & ministers there y^• they wold haue don it / & if they had don so to / yet it foloweth not but they would haue spoken against y^e appoyntment of dayes / & nomothesian, of fasting / wherof Eusebius saith / that Montanus was the first author. I speake of that which they ought to haue done / for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting: whē as the one sayth / it was remedy or reward to fast other dayes / but in Lent / not to fast / was sinne: and the other asketh / what saluation we can obtaine / if we blot not our sinnes by fasting / seing y^t the scripture sayth / y^e fasting & almes doth deliuer from sin / & therfore calleth them new teachers / that shut out the merite of fasting. Which I therfore recite / because you would seme by Aug. & Ambrose iudgements / to alow of the weekely and commanded fasts. What you meane to cite this place ad Ianuarium. 118. I can not tell / you charge the authors of the admonition to be conspired w^t the papistes / I will not charge you so / but wil thinke better of you / vntil the contrary do more appeare. But I appeale to the iudgement of all men / if this be not to bring in popery again / to al∣low of s. Aug. saying / wherin he sayth that the celebrating of the day of the passi∣on. &c. is either of some generall councel / or of the Apostles commaūded & decre∣ed / wherby a gate is opē vnto the papists to bring in / vnder the coloure of tradi∣tions / all their beggery whatsoeuer. For you plainly confirme / that there is some thing necessary to be obserued / which is not contained any wayes in y^e scripture. For to keepe those holy dayes / is not contained in the scripture / neither can be

concluded of any part therof / and yet they are necessary to be kept / if they be com∣maunded of the Apostles. Therefore in your opinion / some thing is necessary to be kept / which is not contained in the scriptures / nor can not be concluded of them. And if you say / that S. Aug. leaueth it in dout / whether it were the Apo∣stles tradition & statute / or a generall councels / then you bring vs yet to a worse point / that we can not be assured of y^e which is necessary for vs to knowe / that is whether the Apostles did ordaine that these dayes should be kept as holy dayes / or the coūcels. And that it is S. Augustins meaning / to father such like things of the Apostles / it maye appeare by that whych he wryteth / saying. There are many things whych the whole churche holdeth / and therfore are well beleued to be commaunded of the Apostles / although they be not founde wrytten. If thys iudgement of s. Augustine be a good iudgement and a sounde / then there be some things commaunded of God / which are not in the scriptures / & therfore there is no sufficient doctrine contained in the scriptures / wherby we may be saued. For al the commaundements of God & of the apostles / are nedeful for our saluation.

And marke I pray you whether your affections cary you: before you sayd / that the Lords day which was vsed for the day of rest in the Apostles time / may be chaūged / as the place / and houre of prayer: but the day of the passion & resur∣rection. &c. you either thrust vpon vs as the decree of the apostles / or at least put vpon vs a necessity of keping of them / least haply in breaking of them / we might breake the Apostles decree / for you make it to lie betweene the councels and the apostles / which of them decreed this. And do you not perceiue / how you stil rea∣son against your self? for if the church haue had so great regard to y^t which the a∣postles did in their times / that they kept those things which are not wryttē / and therfore are doutfull whether euer they vsed them or no / how much more should we hold our selues to these things / whych are wrytten / that they did / and of the whych we are assured? As touching the obseruation of these holy dayes / I will refer the reader vnto an other place / where occasion is geuen againe to speake of them. As for that rule y^• he geueth when he sayth whatsoeuer is not. &c. and for the last of the three rules / I receiue them with hys owne interpretation / whych he hath afterward in. 119. epist. ad Ianuarium, which is / that it be also profitable.

And as for those three rules / whych you saye / are worthye to be noted / I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whit / for I knowe no man that euer denyed / but that the churche may in suche things as are not specified / and precisely determined / make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules whych I haue before alledged out of S. Paule.

And as for the second of the three rules / I can not at any hand allow it. For when all christianitie was ouer runne wyth Poperie / thyngs were vniuersally obserued / whych to kepe / were mere wickednes / and thys strengtheneth the pa∣pistes vniuersalitie.

Concerning your glose (if it be not repugnant to the scripture) besides that it is not enough / because it must be grounded by the scripture / and that it is wic∣ked to geue such authority to any decree of men / that a man should not enquire of it / or reason of it / I haue shewed that he ment nothing les. For affirming that suche thyngs are the Apostles commaundements / hys meaning was / that they should be wythout all exception receiued / and absolutely. How much better is it / that we take heede to the words of the Apostle / then either to S. Augustins or yours / whych sayth / that if he / or an angel from heauen / should preach any other gospell / then that whych he had preached / that they should hold hym accursed: he sayth not any contrary or repugnant doctrine / but any other gospell.

But tel me / why passed you by y^t in Augustin which he * wryteth to Iu∣nuarie that those thyngs whych are not contained in the scripture / nor decreed of coūcelles / nor confirmed by generall customes / but are varied by the manners

of regions and of men / vpon occasion offered / ought to be cutte of / although they seeme not to be against faith / because they pres wyth seruile burdens the religi∣on / whych Christ would haue free. Thys sentence belike was to hotte for you / you coulde not cary it. The rest whose names you recite (whych you saye you leaue of for breuitie sake) I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to consider / wherfore they be left out / seeing that Augustin in whom you put so great trust / answereth so little to your expectation. Thys is certaine / that breuitie (whych you pretend) was in small commendation with you / whych make so often repe∣titions / stuffe in diuers sentences of Doctors and wryters / to proue things that no man denyeth / translate whole leaues to so small purpose / vpon so light occa∣sions / make so often digressions / sometimes against the vnlernednes / sometimes against the malice / sometimes against the intemperancie of speach of the authors of the admonition / and euery hand while pulling out the sworde vpon them / and throughout the whole boke / sporting your selfe wyth the quotations in the mar∣gent / so that if all these where taken out of your boke / as winde out of a bladder / we should haue had it in a narow roume / whych is thus swelled into such a vo∣lume / and in stead of a boke of .ij. s. we should haue had a pamfiet of two pence.

And whereas you say / that you haue not alleaged these learned fathers for the authors of the libell / but for the wise / discrete / humble / and learned / to them also I leaue it to consider / vpon that / whych is alledged by me. First / howe lyke a diuine it is / to seeke for rules in the Doctors / to measure the making of cere∣monies by / whych you mighte haue had in the scriptures: there / at the riuers / heere / at the fountaine / vncerten there / whych heere are certen / there / in parte false / which are heere altogither true / then to howe little purpose they serue you / and last of all howe they make against you.

Notes

• And as we say in our tongue / Nettles amōg Roses.
• Tertull. de co∣ron. milit. Ignatius ad Ph. epist. 5.
• 17. chap. of the 5. booke. Aug. de temp. 62. serm. Amb. 10. lib. ep.
• Tom. 7. de bap¦tis. contra Do∣nat. lib. 5. cap. 23.
• Gal. 1. 8.
• Epist. 119.