A replye to an ansvvere made of M. Doctor VVhitgifte Against the admonition to the Parliament. By T.C.

To the next section I haue answeared before / where I haue entreated of churchyng women / and of prayer / it foloweth to speake vnto that / in the. 205. and. 206. pa.

TO pas by the prophane prouerbe here vsed / which matcheth mad men & wo∣men / & children togither / most vnsemely for a D. of diuinity / especially hand∣ling diuine matters: for the singing of psalmes by course / and side after side / although it be very auncient / yet it is not commēdable / and so much the more to be suspected / for that the deuil hath gone about to get it so great authority / partly by deriuing it from Ignatius time / and partly in making the world beleue / that thys came from heauen / and that the angels were heard to sing after thys sorte / whych as it is a mere fable / so is it confuted by hystoriographers / whereof some ascribe the begynning of thys to Damasus / some other vnto Flauianus & Dio∣dorus. Frō whēce so euer it came / it can not be good / considering that when it is graūted y^• all the people may praise God (as it is in singing of psalmes) there this ought not to be restrained vnto a few / & wher it is lawful both w^t hart and voyce to sing the whole psalme / there it is not mete y^t they should sing but the one halfe wyth their heart and voice / and the other with their heart only. For where they may both wyth heart and voice sing / there the heart is not enough. Therfore be∣sides the incommodity whych commeth thys way / in that being tossed after thys sort / men can not vnderstande what is song / these other two inconueniences come of thys forme of singing / and therfore is banyshed in all reformed churches.

Vnto two very good reasons whych the admonition vseth / to shewe the in∣connenience of making curtesy / and stāding at the name of Iesus / and at the gos∣pell / rather then at other names of God / and the rest of the scripture: wherof the one is / that it is against decencye and good order whych is broken by scraping of the feete / and the other y^• it may brede a dangerous opinion of the inequality either of the sonne of God with the other persons / or of the gospels w^t other scriptures / M. doctor sayth y^• it is an indifferent thyng / and neyther taketh away their rea∣sons / nor setteth down any of hys own: thys is a slēder defence. And it is no ma∣licious dealing / to note those faults whych are so generall & so open / & yet notw^t∣standing vncorrected or vnreformed by those / by whom M. d. wold make vs be∣leue / y^t the church is best gouerned. But I pray you tel me / why do you cōdemn the seruing of two cures / y^e alow the hauing of two benefices? If it be no fault to haue two benefices / how is it one to haue two cures? for y^e curate is better able to read hys seruice in .ij. places / thē the pastor to discharge his office in .ij. churches. As for y^e speche of y^e cathedral churches / either it is nothing / or els it is fals. For if he say y^• ther is either in al those cathedral churches one / or in euery of those. 12. churches one / which is able to cōfute papists. &c. what great thing saith he / which

sayeth no more of all these churches / then is to be found in one poore house of the vniuersity / whose rents are skarce three hundred pound by yeare? yea what hath he sayd of them whych was not to be founde in them euen in Queenes Maryes tyme / when there was yet some one almoste in euerye Churche / whych for feare dissemblyng / was able notwythstanding to confute the Papistes / Anabaptistes / Puritanes. And if he meane that in those .xij. houses / the worst of the Preben∣daries are hable to defend the truth agaynst all Papists. &c. all men do know the vntruthe of it / so that althoughe thys sentence be very doubtfully put forthe / yet how so euer it be taken / it is as M. Doctor hath ryghtly termed it / a mere brag. And yet I doubt not / and am well assured / that there be diuers godly learned men whych haue lyuings in those places / but for all that they cease not therefore to be dennes of loyterors and idle persones / whylest there are nouryshed there some whych serue for no profitable vse in the church (their offyces being suche as bryng no commoditye / but rather hurte / of whych numbre certen are whych the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page:) some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the coloure of their prebendes there / absent them selues from them: and that whych they spoyle and rauen in other places / there they spend and make good cheare wyth / and therfore not wythout good cause called dennes. Fi∣nally / there being nothyng there / whych might not be much better applied / and to the greater commodity of the churche / whylest they myght be turned into colled∣ges / where yong men myght be brought vp in good learning / & made fitte for the seruice of the church and common wealthe / the vniuersities being not able to re∣ceyue that numbre of scholers / wherwyth their neede may be supplyed.

And where M. Doctor sayth / that that whych is spoken of the Queenes maiestyes chappell / is worthy rather to be punyshed then confuted: if so be that these be abuses / the example of them in her maiesties chappell / can not be but most daungerous / whych wyth all humble submission and reuerence / I beseeche her maiesty duely to consider.

And as for the reasons which M. doctor bringeth to establishe them in the 225. page / as that they are necessary (whych he doth barely say) and that s. Aug. alloweth of a Deane / and that the authors of the Admonition are instruments of those whych desire the spoile of them / and that a man may as well speake against vniuersities & colledges / as against them / I haue answeared before / sauing that it is to be feared / that colledges in vniuersities (if M. doctor may worke y^• which he goeth about) wil shortly be in little better case / then those cathedral churches / whych not only by hys own example / but wyth might and maine / and al endeuor possyble / goeth about to fill and fraught them wyth Non residences, and suche as haue charges of churches in other places: whych do no good in the vniuersitye / and partly are such as can do none / only are pernicious examples of riotous fea∣sting and making greate cheare / wyth the prayes and spoyles whych they bryng out of the country to the great hurt of the vniuersity presently / and vtter ruine of it hereafter / onles spedy remedy be therfore prouided. And wher he sayth it is not material / although these deanes / vicedeanes / canons / peticanōs / prebēdaries. &c. come from the pope / it is as if he shoulde saye / that it skilleth not although they come out of the bottomles pit. For whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope which is Antichrist / commeth first from the deuill: and where he addeth thys conditi∣on (if it be good. &c.) in deede if of the egges of a cockatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with / or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer with all / then also may the things that come from the Pope and the Deuill / be good / profitable / and necessary vnto the church. And where he sayeth that collegiate churches are of great auncientie / he proueth not the auncientie of the cathedrall churches / onles he proue that cathedrall and collegiate be all one. But I will not sticke wyth hym for so small a matter / & if our controuersy were of the names of these chur∣ches

/ and not of the matter / I could be content to graunt hys cause in this poynt as good as antiquitie without the word of God (which is nothing but rotten∣nes) could make it. But for so much as those auncient collegiate churches were no more lyke vnto these which we haue now / then things most vnlyke: our ca∣thedrall churches haue not so much as thys olde worne cloke of antiquity / to hide theyr nakednes / and to keepe out the shoure. For the collegiate churches in times past were a senate Ecclesiasticall / standing of godly learned mynisters & elders / which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in the citie or towne where suche churches were / and for that in suche great cities and townes com∣monly there were the most learned pastors and auncientes / therefore the townes and villages rounde about in hard and difficult causes / came and had their reso∣lutions of theyr doubtes at theyr handes: euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteronomie / that when there was any great matter in the countrey / which the Leuites in matters pertayning to God / and the Iudges in matters pertay∣ning to the common wealth / could not discusse / that then they should come to Ie∣rusalem / where there was a great numbre of Priestes / Leuites / and learned Iudges / of whome they should haue their questions dissolued / and thys was the first vse of collegiate churches. Afterward the honor which the smaller churches gaue vnto them / in asking them counsell / they tooke vnto them selues / and that which they had by the curtesy and good will proceeding of a reuerent estimation of them / they dyd not only take vnto them of right / but also possessed them of all authority of hearing and determyning any matters at all. And in the ende they came to thys which they are now / which is a company that haue strange names and strange offyces / vnhearde of of all the purer churches / of whome the greatest good that wee can hope of is / that they doe no harme. For although there be dy∣uers which doe good / yet in respect that they bee Deanes / Prebendaries / Ca∣nons / Petycanons. &c. for my part / I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them.

And where hee sayeth they are rewardes of learning / in deede then they should be / if they were conuerted vnto the mayntenance and bringing vp of scho∣lers / where now for the most part / they serue for fat morsels to fill (if it might be) the gredy appetites of those / which otherwyse haue enough to lyue with / and for holes and dennes to keepe them in / which eyther are vnworthy to be kept at the charge of the church / or else whose presence is necessary and duetifull in other pla∣ces / and for the most part vnprofitable there.

Last of all / whereas M. Doctor sayeth that we haue not to follow other churches / but rather other churches to follow vs / I haue answeared before / thys only I adde / y^• they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctryne / but those which made the people of God beleeue / that they were happy when they were not / and that their estate was very good / when it was corrupt. Of the which kynde of false prophecie / Ieremy especially doth complayne. And therefore onles M. Doctor amend hys speach / & leaue thys crying peace / peace / all is wel / when there are so many things out of order / and that not by the iudge∣ment of y^e admonition & fauorers therof only / but euē of al which are not willing∣ly blind / I say if he do not amend these speches / the crime of false prophesy will sit closer vnto him / thē he shalbe euer able to shake of / in the terrible day of the lord.

Notes

• Socrat. 6. lib. 8. cap. Platina cap. Damas. Theodo. 2. lib. 24. cap.
• Deut. 17. 8. 9.
• Iere. 6. 14. Iere. 8. 11.