A disproofe of D. Abbots counterproofe against D. Bishops reproofe of the defence of M. Perkins reformed Catholike. The first part. wherin the now Roman church is maintained to be true ancient catholike church, and is cleered from the vniust imputation of Donatisme. where is also briefly handled, whether euery Christian can be saued in his owne religion. By W. B.P. and D. in diuinity

whether the church of Rome, doth vainly and absurdly chalenge to her self, the name of the Catholike church.

THIS first paragraff or se∣ction M. Abbot doth ma∣ke to iustifie the manner of his proceeding, before hee come to the matter: but before all hee thought it expedient, how vndecent soever it were, to begin with a florish in his owne commendation thus.

R. AB.

AS for the victorie which I ominated to my self, thankes be to God I haue obtayned it, being become Maister of the field: And M. Bishop en∣forced

to leaue the mayne battle, contented now out of a corner to thrust an ambush, that hee maie make some shew, that he is not quite spent: I triūph over him in his owne conscience.

W. B.

NAturam expellas furca licet, vsque recurret. see how hard a thing it is to driue a man from his old by as? M. Abbot hath been pre∣tilie well canvased, for his vnmannerly vaun∣ting of his owne doings: yet hee cannot bee taught to leaue it. custome is another nature. what will you? he dwelleth belike farr from good neighbors, and is therfore inforced to praise himselfe. well, if hee will needes proue himself a wisard, and one that can ominate, and tell good fortunes before they fall, how should I hinder him? I willinglie confesse that hee doth but his dutie, to thanke the Lord for his good luck: and might for more comple∣te ioy, haue called in his fellowe Ministers with their wiues, to haue congratulated with him. But to put the censure of his triumph to his adversaries conscience, seemeth to excessi∣ue an amplification. for hee was cock sure to be condemned by me, for singing a triumph before the victorie, that before had told him plainely inough, that I scarse found anie wei∣ghtie point in his booke worth the answering: and that there was better proofe of their do∣ctrine in two leaues of M. Perkins treatise, then in ten of his. yea I moreover made so

bold as to tell him, that his printed papers were more fitt and proper to stopp mustard potts, then anie meane schollers mouth. was there anie reason after such plaine war∣ning given him before hand of my dislike, on∣ce to imagin (if hee had not been wonderfully conceited of himself) that I so highlie estee∣med of his writings, that I would without fai¦le giue him the prick and price. But why do I exact reason of an Augurer, or wiseman as they call him, that will needs dine into the se∣crets of my conscience? may not hee peraduē∣ture by helpe of his Astronomicall skill, see there that, which I cannot espie my selfe?

In good sadnes honest sir, tell mee I praie you, why you saie, that I left the maine bat∣tle, and was content out of a corner to thrust out an ambush? when as I marched in the fa∣ce of your forces, and encountred with the forefront of your battle; setting downe your discourse even as your self had ranged it, ma∣king answere to the verie first words, and so continuing without interruption: verie im∣pertinently then do you charge mee with ly∣ing in ambush, and setting on you out of cor∣ners. These odd tearmes of an old rustie rag∣ged soldiour, may be much more properlie returned on your selfe, that hath leapt ouer so manie scores of the first pages of my booke, and left as many of the last vnanswered; slip∣ping over also some of the middest. what is to ly in ambush and to sett on a booke out of corners, if this answering of it by snatches

bee not? but leaving these idle speeches w∣herwith M. Abbots book is stiff būbasted, let vs come faire and roundly to the matter; which in this section is to shew, whether he hath proceeded orderlie or no in his dis∣course? that the learned reader maie the bet∣ter bee able to iudge of it, I will summarily rehearse how wee fell into this Question, whether the Romane church bee the Catho∣like church or noe.

I in the Epistle Dedicatory of my first boo∣ke aganist M. Perkins, humblie. besought his Maiestie that he would bee pleased to em∣brace that true Catholike and Apostolike faith, in which his most royall progenitors liued and died, whervnto M. Abbot answe∣red, that my petition was needles; bicause his Maiestie had already embraced the same true, Catholike, and Apostolike faith. which to prove he made as it were this argument. The Catholike church is that which is spred over all the world, but the Roman church is not spred over all the world, therfore the Roman church is not the Catholike church. To which I replied, that granting the maior or first pro∣position to bee true; the minor or second was not so direct to his purpose, as if he- should haue subsumed: but the English church, (the faith wherof his Maiestie embraceth) is spred over all the world. or at least, the English church is a true member of that church, which is spred over all the world; for

whether the church of Rome bee the Catho∣like church or no, the faith which his Maje∣stie embraceth cannot bee Catholike, vnles it bee that which either hath been, or now is spred ouer all the world. therfore no man can deny, but that it had been a more direct and speedie course, to have proved their owne church to bee Catholike, then to goe about to disprove the church of Rome to bee Ca∣tholike. for let vs suppose that which M. Ab∣bot would have, (though it bee most vntrue) that the church of Rome were not the Catho∣like church; Doth it thervpō follow, that the church of England is Catholike? nothing les∣se. for there have been and are manie erring & no Catholike congregations by the consent of all men, different and dissenting from the church of Rome. as for example were of old the Arrians, the Donatists, Macedonians. and att this time bee, the Trinitarians, Anabaptists, and such like. supposing then the church of Rome not to bee Catholike, and that the En∣glish church doth not agree with the said church; may it not neverthelesse bee some other erronious congregation, that is fa••r e∣nough of frō being Catholike? there being in the world so manie other of that bad marke and stampe? It must needes then follow, that M. Abbot beginning with the church of Ro∣me, neither tooke a speedie and direct, nor yet a sure course, to prove his maiesties faith to bee Catholike. M. Abbot in his owne excuse saith: that to prove his maiesties faith to bee Catho∣like,

he must needes declare what the Catholike church was: bicause of the Catholike church it is, that the faith is called the Catholike faith. This I admitt for good doctrine, and do desire the Reader to beare it well in mind: that the Ca∣tholike faith must needes bee sought for in the Catholike church, and cannot be found out, before wee haue the Catholike church to teach it vs. because as M. Abbot affirmeth he∣ere, of the Catholike church it is, that the faith is called the Catholike faith. well go on good Sir, I grant that you did well to declare what was the Catholike faith, and what was the Catho∣like church too, But having declared what was the Catholike church and faith, why did you not go in hād to proue your English faith that his maiestie maintaineth; or your English church, which hee vpholdeth, to bee that sa∣me true Catholick church? To saie that that stumbling blocke, to witt, that the church of Ro∣me was the Catholike church) was first to be re∣moved out of the way, will not serve the tur∣ne. for that was not necessary. when as the o∣ther if it had been true, might haue been per∣formed by it self, without any mention made of the church of Rome. And if your fingers itched to haue a fling at the church of Rome, would it not haue been more seemly and de∣cent, first to haue confirmed your owne faith to bee Catholike, which you tooke in hand? then having layed that foūdation, to haue de∣clared that the faith of Rome was not Ca∣tholike. wherfore (I did neither idly nor pre∣posterously

(as you write) require so much att your hands. but verie preposterously do you proceede, and beyond all measure. ex∣travagantly: that having spoken somewhat to declare what the Catholike church was, and that the church of Rome was not that Catholike church, do afterwards run throu∣gh seaven or eight questions more, and ma∣ke an end of your booke too, before you come to take one chapter to prove that your English church is the Catholike chur∣ch; or that your English faith, is the Catho∣like faith. Is not this to forgett your self in the highest degree that is possible? to in∣stitute a treatise to prove his maiesties faith to bee Catholike, and to professe in the beginning of it, that to find out the Ca∣tholike faith, wee must first find out the Catholike church: which being soone fo∣und out, and agreed vpon; to bee that which is spredd over all the world: after wardes in all the ensuing discourse, not to haue one chapter to prove the English church or faith, to bee spred all the world over. was not this vtterly to leese himself, and to le∣ave his reader as it were. in the middle of a maze? Pervse gentle reader the contents of all the chapters of M. Abbots booke, which bee fowreteene in number, thou shalt not find one of them, so much as pre∣tend to prove directly, the faith of En∣gland to have been dilated into all coun∣tries, the first is, that the church of Rome

doth vainely pretend to bee the Catholi∣ke church; the second consisteth of a com∣parison betweene the Papists and the Do∣natists. the third is about the Papists abuse of the name Catholike. the fourth, that the church before Christ, was a part of the Catholike church: and that the old and new testament do not differ in substan∣ce of faith. The fift, that religion cannot satly bee grounded vpon the example of fathers and forefathers. the sixth, that the reasons of popery are not vrgent and for∣cible. The seventh, of the florishing and best state of the church of Rome: and of the fulnes of doctrine contayned in Saint Pauls Epistle to the Romanes: of Idolatry in worstipping of Saints. The eighth of iu∣stification before God. The ninth, of iusti∣fication before man. The tenth, that eter∣nall life cannot bee purchased by meritt. The eleaventh, the first motion of concu∣piscence is sinne. The twelfth; that the spirit giues witnes to the faithfull, that they bee the sonnes of God. The 13. that good workes are not meritorious of life to come The 14. that the Epistles of Saint Paul are loosely alleaged by the papists. lo here is the end of the booke and as a man may well saie, finis ante principium, a conclusion of the worke, before he begin to handle the principall point in question. to witt, w∣hether that faith which his Maiestie

embraceth, bee the Catholike faith. that is, whether at any time it hath been receiued in all Christian countries. so that in one word this booke of M. Abbots may bee answered with a nihil dicit, as our com̄on lawiers tearme it, that is, hee hath said iust nothing to that which hee vndertooke to performe therin. for having taken in hand to prove, that the faith of the English congregation is Catho∣like, and consequently that it hath been vniversally planted in all nations: now to let that stand a cooling, and to argue that the church of Rome is not the Catholike church, but rather Donasticall: and that it abuseth the name Catholike: that the church in old father Abrahams daies, was a part of the Catholike church; and such other impertinent questions: was it not rather (as one maie say) to lead a wild Goose cha∣se, and to wander vp and downe very stran∣gelie, then to speake to the point of the question propounded? And albeit it draw some what neerer the matter to go about to proue the Protestants doctrine, to be more conformable vnto the old and new Testa∣ment, then the doctrine of the Catholiks: yet that is a severall distinct question, and to bee handled after another manner. for I doe in one chapter ioyne Issue with M. Abbot therin, and doubt not to make it good a∣gainst anie protestant, that the Catholike Ro∣man faith is much more sutable even vnto

the verie true text of tke Bible, then the Pro∣testants: and that by conference of our doctri∣ne word by word, and sentence by sentence, with the verie words and sentences of holy writt. But to prove our faith to bee Catholi∣ke wee take another course, and do demon∣strate that the chief prelates and Doctors of the Catholike church, who have florished in most Christian countries since the Apostles time, have taught the verie same doctrine which wee teach, and maintained the same faith, and served God with the same Religion, that we do. which M. Abbot must performe for their faith and religion, if hee will haue any wise men beleeue them to bee Catholiks: even by his owne explication of the name Ca∣tholike; in his answer to my Epistle; and by his owne confession heere, when hee faith; that wee cannot find out the Catholike faith, be∣fore wee have found out the Catholike church; of which the faith is named Catholike. Now no man can find out the Catholike church, but by tracing out that companie of the faithfull who have peopled all Christian nations. w∣hich M. Abbot not being able to do for the protestātes faith, doth returne the same questiō to mee: and would haue mee to do the same for our doctrine, and namely, for that point of the popes power to depose Princes: which (as hee saies) Cardinal Bellarmine doth hold to be one of the chief points of our faith, and the ve∣rie foundation of Catholike religion. Albeit M. Abbot would not at my request, do that ho∣nor

to his own religion, and right to himself as to satisfie my iust demaund, hee having be∣fore also vndertaken it; yet I will not refuse at his instance, to demonstrate that article of faith (which Cardinall Bellarmin there men∣tioneth) to have been beleeved, taught, and practised in most christian countries, in the most florishing time of the Catholike church: And that by the testimonie of the best renow∣med fathers of the verie same age. I will bring him in more authentik evidence for this issue then would be the hands and seales of the moderne churches of Grecia, Armenia, Ethio∣pia, Russia, and such like schismaticall and er∣ring congregations, (which M. Abbot here demaundeth) as the reader shall see in the next paragraffe or division, where that question of the supremacy, shalbe treated of. But honest sir, why do you by the way so wound your credit in misalleadging that most learned Cardinals wordes? doth he in the place by you quoted saie, that the supremacly of the pope, for the deposing of kings, is one of the chief points of the Ca∣tholike faith? will no warning serve the turne, to make you cite your authors sincerely? if this bee the shuffling wherin your best skill consi∣steth, the reader in deed hath great need to looke well to your fingers; Card. Bellarmine, both there and elswhere doth teach, that the popes supremacy is one of the principalle heads of our religion. But hee doth not affir∣me there, that the popes power to depo∣se princes, is any chief article of our faith.

though hee taught that to bee a most proba∣ble opinion, and in some sort to appertaine to the supremacie, as a dependant thervpon. Now to that which followeth out of an o∣ther place of Card. Bellarmin; hee (you saie) shall free vs from need to travell for this proofe (to wit that our English faith hath been spred all the world over) who saith, that though one only pro∣vince did retaine the true faith, yet the same might properly bee called the Catholike church (and ther∣fore their faith the Catholike faith) so long as it could bee cleerly shewed, that the same is one and the same, with that, which at anie time was spred over the whole world. whervpon M. Abbot in∣fers, that to prove their faith to bee the Ca∣tholike faith, it wilbee sufficient to prove, that is was that which once was spred over all the world. Now with the proofe therof M. Bishop (saith hee) is chooked already. Behold the babling of this vaine man. first the Car∣dinall doth not ease him anie whitt at all, from proving their faith to have been spred over all the world: but only saith vpon supposi∣tion, (Si sola vna provincia retineret veram fidem, if one onlie province kept the true faith) that then it might bee called Catholike: yet so, that it could bee cleerlie shewed, to haue been spred in times past, over all the world. where you see, that hee requires of necessitie, that it must bee cleerly shewed, that the same faith which wilbee accounted Catholike, hath been before at lest spredd over all the world. so that M. Abbot is as farr to seeke as hee was be∣fore,

and that hee must needes come to this sta∣ke, how vnwilling soever hee bee, and either shew that their faith hath been receiued all Christendome over, or els confesse that it can∣not bee called Catholike. Come of then gent∣le Sir, flie not from the point, seek not to hide your head in a corner, but performe that peece of service bravely, and then hardlie talke of chooking M. Bishop. but to avouch that M. Bishop is chooked already, long before anie proof thereof be brought, with onlie hearing you to speake of it, is too too childish, and full of doting vanitie.

I found fault with M. Abbot, for shuffling and flitting from the faith and religion of the Romanes, vnto the particular persons that in∣habit the cittie of Rome: bicause their faith maie bee Catholike and spredd over all the world, albeit their persons bee confined wi∣thin the bounds of one countrie or cittie. hee answereth, that hee hath shuffled amisse for vs: for that hee hath shuffled vs from b••ing Catholikes; and the Roman church, from being the Catholike church. which is not to the purpose: And how true it is, shalbee tried in the next chapter. In the meane season it must needs bee taken for a foule fault in arguing, to change the tear∣mes, and to flitt from one thing to another: and for the faith of the Romans, to take the persons that inhabit Rome; there being no lesse difference betweene the person of a man and his faith; then there is between a fox and a fearnebrake. finally M. Abbot saieth that, his

shuffling will yeeld vs but a bad game, if I cut not wisely: And if wee haue no better Cards (saieth hee) wee shall s••rely le••se all. well gentle sir, seing you confesse your selfe to bee such a cunning shuffler, and giue mee so faire warning of it before hand: I wil take the paine to shuffle your Cards after you: or els will cutt them in such sort, that your skill in packing shall stand you in litle steed. If there bee no remedy but that you will needs haue about with the church of Rome, bee it by order, or bee it by disorder; look you handle your weapons more handsomely then you haue done hither∣to, or els you are like enough to receiue the foile.

Notes

• In my preface of the repro∣ofe.
• Ibidem. Page 94.
• Bell. Epi∣stola ad A••b. a∣pud ••ath. To••um.