A dialogue betvvixt a secular priest, and a lay gentleman. Concerning some points objected by the Iesuiticall faction against such secular priests, as haue shewed their dislike of M. Blackwell and the Iesuits proceedings.

RIght VVorshipfull Sir, my hearti∣est salutations and Gods blessing to your selfe and your Catholicke familie. After my departure from you, I could not but vpon the re∣membrance of our long and in∣tricate communication, thinke it very needfull to set you downe in writing the prin∣cipall points which had passed between vs in the said conference. For I finding you to be of a vertuous and of a iust disposition, by reason whereof you were en∣clined to iudge charitably of all sorts; and had not suffered your selfe lightly and without proofe of things to bee caried away with such reports as might be disgracefull and iniurious to good men, and your old friends: I thought it my part to let you haue from mine owne pen the same in substance, which you re∣ceiued from my mouth, that hereby in the relation of my answeres, you might be kept from error, and my speeches be free from mistaking. These times where∣in we are fallen, doe affoord vs plentie of humourous men; and those no lesse void of sinceritie, than of o∣ther Christian vertues. And very hardly are they to be found, which in matters of controuersie tread vp∣rightly, and be disposed to censure other mens words and actions, as they bee in truth, or as iustly they de∣serue: but all rather value men and matters accor∣ding, as either blind affections lead them, or as by passion or priuate lucre they bee drawne to iudge or

report. VVhich ill disposition, as it hath infected the most, so doth it not any where more apparently shew it selfe, than in this controuersie fallen out betweene the Iesuites with the Archpriest and their adherents of the one partie, and vs secular priests on the other; wherein you see many run violently, and are caried headlong as a forceable streame against vs, ouerbea∣ring vs with infamies and slaunderous reports, vpon vncharitable surmises, vnlikely presumptions, and vntrue suggestions, without respect of iust and due examination of our cause; or, as may bee feared in many, without regard of truth. Now mens iudge∣ments are ruled wholly by fantasies and conceits of persons, by present tasts of gaine, or future hopes of preferment, or like temporall respects, to condemne vs before they know our cause: indifferencie is aban∣doned, equitie excluded, passion, partialitie, and a pleasing humour beareth all the sway: false reports are receiued as certaine verities, and they are repu∣ted for the best, which in renting asunder our good names, and in the office of defaming, doe shew them∣selues most eagre and vehement. It is a wofull thing indeed (as you often said) to behold so great a breach of concord, and this scandalous deuision and strife to be among Ecclesiasticall persons: but it is most hor∣rible to see, what violent and vniust courses are taken by men professing singular pietie, vertue, and perfe∣ction aboue others, for the oppression of many inno∣cent priests, & vtter subuersion of their good names. No rumours that may disgrace vs, are left vncast a∣broad; no slaunderous reports which may tend to our discredite, are vnuttered; no false surmise that may defile or distaine our good names, is kept from the peoples hearing. And finally, there is no man, no woman (as well of schismatickes and common ene∣mies, as of Catholickes) which our aduersaries do not

entertaine, as fit instruments to be employed in this vncharitable worke of defaming vs: yea, to be offi∣cious and hot-spirited in this businesse, causeth such admirable alteration, that admit heretofore one had been reputed and shunned as a bad companion, or holden for a daungerous spie and traitor by our ad∣uersaries and their fauorites; admit hee were such a one, as had publickely renounced his Catholicke re∣ligion, and in open court renied the Pope, and au∣thoritie of the sea Apostolicke; admit hee were such a one, as by his whole life had giuen monstrance of Atheisme, yet his exquisit diligence, his intemperate stickling, & his furious zeale in blazing euery where our vndeserued infamies, graceth him afresh, and ma∣keth him worthy the name of a good fellow, and to be reckoned by our brethren persecutors, in the rank of a reasonable honest man, thogh perhaps this good conceit & fame must stand no longer, than this peece of their vilest seruice shall endure. Your selfe good Sir, with all your Catholicke neighbors can witnesse with vs, how hetherto wee haue concealed from you and kept secret all the matter of these contentions, being most vnwilling, and in troth very scrupulous, (though in our own iust defence) to impart vnto you any little portion of the cause or controuersie, the notice whereof might certainely trouble your minds and breed you scandale, but could not benefit you in the smallest degree. Neither the matter only was thus carefully kept from you, but the parties also with whome wee had this lamentable conflict; least vpon the long triall you haue had of our painefull trauels, and sincere conuersation among you (nothing agree∣able to these slanders) you might take the smallest aversion, or any hard conceit against the persons of our aduersaries, that beare the name of religious men and Catholicke priests. But now that you are already

made acquainted with this contention, and with the parties also; and this not by vs, but by the Iesuites, the Arch-priest, and the double industrie of their Agents; and that againe, contrary to the very law of God and Nature, they heape vpon vs dayly new in∣famies before our cause be heard, or by any forme of iust triall and proceeding, we bee found guiltie, and convicted in the least crime of hundreds, wherewith they vnconscionably charge vs. It is needfull that we repell so notable iniuries, that wee stand in orderly defence of our good names and innocencie, and that we let you know the truth of our cause; to the end, that this present disturbance of your peace, and the greeuous scandale giuen throughout the realme by these contentions, may redound to them or vs, as ei∣ther they or we shall bee found by iust examination and indifferent iudgement to haue been the authors and causers thereof. And truly Sir, wee would haue been vnwilling and very loath to haue defended our owne good names in any publicke manner, because we could not possibly doe it, without touching the imperfections of our owne deare brethren, which in these hard times of persecution, and in this lamenta∣ble affliction of our Church for the Catholicke faith, we earnestly desire to spare and not to touch, though with any reasonable losse to vs; if our brethren would haue taken vp themselues in any time, or haue kept any measure in afflicting vs. But you see our silence hath been so long, our patience so great, that thereby we haue not onely suffered much detriment in our credits and estimation throughout the realme, but moreouer we haue lost many friends; which through ignorance of our cause, the violencie of religious men and seminarie priests with their adherents, no∣ted to run against vs, are fallen from vs. This patience of ours also hath made (which is the worst) our aduer∣saries

more audacious and violent in their vniust courses. In all which proceedings of theirs, we could neuer hope for stay or stint, till they had vtterly ouer∣whelmed our good names, vnlesse in time we should make some lawfull resistance and encounter: which though perhaps we haue vndertaken it too late, yet we doubt not, but in time we shall recouer some part of our losses, and at the least in the iudgements of honest, vertuous, and indifferent persons, bee freed from the infamies, after they shall haue once exa∣mined and aduisedly waighed the cause on both sides, without partiall and blinding affections. In this onely our aduersaries haue the aduauntage of vs, that they can easily couer the wrongs they doe vs with a plausible cloake, and name of their religion and authoritie, and with inuectiues against vs, as a∣gainst enemies to their order, and disobedient to our owne superiours: which two bad dispositions, if thorow their slaunders they be once beleeued, or conceiued to raigne in vs, they must procure of necessitie vnto vs the auersions and hatred of all Catholicke people and honest natures. VVe be Ca∣tholicke priests, and albeit our carriage in Gods worke hath beene heretofore neuer so good and ir∣reprehensible, yet the very bare name or coat of re∣ligion, and the very remembrance of authoritie, swaieth much in mens opinions, to the discredite of any that contend with religious persons and su∣periours, although their cause bee neuer so iust, and the actions of the religious or superiours bee most iniurious. But yet who is he, that experien∣ced but a little in the affairs of both former and pre∣sent ages, can bee ignorant, that the religious by too much seeking themselues, may swarue from the perfection of charitie, which they professe to run at: and that men placed in authoritie, may also

transgresse the lawes of equitie in the execution of their office, and then they are accustomed in the worst sort to oppresse their subiects, when they most pretend iustice, and in strongest manner sound forth the cries of their authoritie, for better colouring ther∣by their vniust violence. And surely the abuse of au∣thoritie is not to be feared, nor suspected more at any time, than when in controuersies, refusing or hinde∣ring all iust, all indifferent, all ordinary triall by laws or comprimise, they leane wholly to their authoritie, and striue alone by it to ouerbeare and subdue their subiects. And in like maner also, the religious are then to be doubted most of sincere dealing, when only by a vaine-glorious conceit or vaunt of their religious estate and perfection, they iustifie themselues before the world, and would beare out all they doe against their neighbours. Thus farre in part we talked, be∣sides the answeres I made to euery particular report you told me of; which I will here set downe: and to auoid the tedious repetition of quoth you, quoth I, will deliuer the same vnder the names wee haue by our severall callings, both of vs true Catholickes, I a secular priest, and you a VVor. lay Gentleman. VVe began, and did proceed as followeth.

Gent.

The Iesuites with the Arch-priest and all their followers, report, that you and your adherents were schismatickes, and rebellious to the sea Apo∣stolicke, and that still you are disobedient persons to lawfull authoritie and your superiours placed ouer you.

Pr.

They report thus indeed, but vnlesse they can prooue vs guiltie of these crimes, their reports ought by all good men to bee iudged no other than meere calumnies and vntrue slanders, and the repor∣ters to deserue the like names.

Gent.

I thinke so to, but it is to be supposed, that

men of their state and profession would neuer touch any Catholicke priest with these disgracefull tearms, vnlesse they could manifestly proue him to be guilty of the crimes, much lesse would they neuer bring these foulest infamies vpon so many Priests, before they certainely know you guiltie thereof.

Pr.

If we looke what men of their place and vo∣cation ought to doe, or againe what good opinion is due vnto them in regard of their state, I also am of your mind, we should suppose the best of them. For neither religious men, nor a priest chosen to bee su∣periour ouer his brethren, nor such as are directed and guided by them, should work the infamie of Ca∣tholicke priests vpon any uncertainetie or faigned crime. But if on the other side you enter into the con∣trouersie betweene them and vs, and examine truly, and sincerely waigh what we haue done, and what they report, you shall find our actions much contra∣ry to their slaunders, and no cause to thinke all they say to be Gospell: but you will iudge it necessary ra∣ther to feare the worst, than to suppose the best of them. Let vs see then how these religious men, with the Arch-priest and their favourites prooue vs to be schismatickes, disobedient, and rebellious: obiect for them I pray you, what you haue heard them alledge against vs.

Gen.

VVith a good will; & this the rather, because, as I should greatly dislike you if you were guilty of these sinnes, so againe, much should I ioy in you, if you be free. They say you were schismaticks, because you re∣fused for a whole yeares space to accept of the autho∣rity instituted by the Pope, and to submit your selues to maister Blackwell ordained Arch-priest ouer you. And as in that refusall you were schismaticks, disobe∣dient, and rebellious at the first, so are ye now guiltie of great disobedience to your Arch-priest for not

obseruing his degrees and precepts.

Pr.

Here be two things, our forbearing to accept of the new authoritie, or to submit our selues to the Archpriest; & our disobeying the Archp. decrees and precepts. Touching the first, the Iesuites and Archp. haue so vehemently thirsted our disgrace and infa∣mie, that for our delay, they censure vs to be schisma∣tickes, and as such vile persons to be vsed, and shun∣ned of all Catholickes. And albeit the decision of this question belonged nothing at all to them, but was to be had from the see Apostolicke and supreme pastor of Gods church, before whose sentence pro∣nounced, no man was to be condemned of so foule a fault, or punished for the same with publick infamie, and the losse of his good name; yet could not the good men so long containe themselues, nor represse the violence of their spirit, as to spare our credites, and to forbeare the subuersion of our honest fame, till they had informed his Hol. of the case, and had receiued a firme sentence from him, what he iudged of the case, and how he would haue them to proceed against vs. This temperance, this modestie, this cha∣ritie they would not vse, but taking hold of our delay and themselues iudging it as a fit occasion, and a cause sufficient ynough whereby they might worke our disgrace and ignominie, they prevented the see-Apostolicke, and gaue sentence of vs, that wee were Schismatickes. And that this rash and vncharitable iudgement of theirs might run with more credite euery where, they set on work one of their principall men, Father Thomas Lister, Doctor of Diuinitie, to write a Treatise against vs, wherein he went about to proue vs to be schismatickes in the highest degree. Now this rude and infamous libell, as void of lear∣ning as it swarued from truth and modestie, being once divulged, it was approoued by Fa. Garnet their

Prouinciall and by the Archp. and forthwith confir∣med by the practise of them and their adherents; we and our people were borne downe with slaunders, shunned as you know in all conuersation, and the in∣famie was currant euery where. Thus then they pro∣ued vs to be schismatickes by a ridiculous pamphlet, and by the practise of their owne erronious opinion.

Gent.

Had they no better proofes than these? nor surer grounds for the matter, before they spread a∣broad so greeuous an infamie against you, and put it in practise in the sight of the world, as wee see they did?

Pr.

No other truly.

Gen.

It seemeth to haue been very great presump∣tion for a company of priuate religious men, and an Archpriest, whose authoritie also was as yet vncer∣taine, to take vpon them the office of the supreame and Apostolicke Bishop, and vpon their owne heads to condemne you for schismatickes. And againe, it seemeth no lesse vncharitable audacitie, that not ex∣pecting his Ho. sentence, themselues would put in execution their owne opinion, to your extreame in∣famie, and the scandale of our whole Nation.

Pr.

Let it seeme to haue ben, or be it what it shall, this they did, and thus they dealt with vs.

Gent.

But I heare, notwithstanding all their heat then, and the heapes of iniuries they cast vpon you by this slaunder of schisme, that both the Iesuits and Archp. in England, and also Fa. Parson in Rome, are now halfe ashamed of the matter, and say it was but one priuate mans opinion, and that hereby they ne∣uer defamed you to be schismatickes.

Pr.

I heare also, that now, when they perceiue the matter is like to come to triall before the highest Tribunall on earth, and to be made knowne vnto the Christian world how they haue iniuried vs, they

would step backe againe, and with any smooth and cunning shift make men beleeue, they had not so foulely erred, and broken the bonds of all Christian charitie. But the case is cleare ynough, their actions were manifest to all our nation, and will convince them of too intollerable impudencie, if they denie that which all men know them to haue done. VVee haue also their owne hands to testifie against them: but in such men, if the testimonie of their owne con∣sciences will not suffice to make thē confesse a truth, though it be to their own temporall confusion, espe∣cially when their fact is knowne to a whole nation, as this is, they may keepe themselues content with the bare name of Religion; and for humilitie, for morti∣fication, for charitie, for sinceritie, and true simplici∣tie, let them not boast themselues aboue the meanest Christians, nor glorie in these vertues at all. And if the Archp. say or write (as I heare he doth) that hee neuer called vs schismatickes; I cannot but lament his case, considering we haue his own letters and decrees to the contrary, whereby he doth charge vs with that crime, and forbiddeth vs in any sort to defend our good names; not we, but they shall reprove him. And for both the Iesuits and him, if they be now come to this, That it was but a priuat mans opinion, neuer vt∣tered to the discredite of any; they giue the world, which knoweth the contrary, ouer great and manifest presumptions to feare their bad dealing in all the rest. And moreouer, I demaund of them, VVho it was that wrote their infamous libell of schisme? VVas it not the Iesuit Fa. Lister? VVho set him on worke? was not this his superior Iesuit Fa. Garnet, as Fa. Lister himselfe confessed? VVho approoved it, and sent it abroad to some of our priests? VVho but Fa. Garnet and the Archpriest? who said it should be defended, if we would bring it to triall? VVho but Fa. Garnet?

VVhence came the copies thereof to bee scattered among the Assistants, and in all corners of the realm, but from the Iesuits and Archpriests? VVho finally were the authours and ringleaders to the rest in the scandalous practise against vs, and our children? VVho but Fa. Garnet and the Archpriest? Moreouer, if they say it was but one priuat mans opinion, this maketh their fault more inexcuseable: For wee that held the contrary, were many, and not altogether ignorant. The case then in practise should haue been ruled for vs, and we ought not to haue been defamed vpon one priuat mans opinion.

Gent.

I thinke it must needs be graunted, that the superior Iesuit and the Archp. were acquainted with the libell. For the Archp. approued it: and for the Iesuites, considering that their cheefest vaunt and glory of their religion dooth consist in a singular perfection of obedience, wherein they would hee thought to excell all other religious orders, it cannot be imagined, that any of them, but especially not Fa. Lister, a Doctor of Diuinitie, famous among them for learning, a man for tendernesse of conscience, much enclined to scrupulositie, and for humilitie and other religious vertues, accounted of extraordinarie perfe∣ction amongst his fellowes it cannot be imagined (I say) that this Iesuit of all other should so forget him∣selfe, and staine the splendor of his obedience by such wilfull rashnesse and indiscretion, that he would euer enterprise a matter of so great moment and sequell as this, before he had acquainted his superiour Father Garnet therewith, and had consulted also with him in euery particular, or finally, would divulge the same without his commaund and licence.

Pr.

If we suppose that this one good Father had in this grosse manner forgotten euery point of his re∣ligious obedience; can yet any man thinke, but that

his superiour Fa. Garnet (if Fa. Lister had not taken it in hand, and finished it with his licence and liking, or if it had not been sent abroad and practised accor∣ding to Fa. Garnets owne will and pleasure) would forthwith haue espied the error and disobedience of his subject, and haue recalled the tract, and hindered the practise thereof? But if Father Lister forgot to ac∣quaint his superior with it at the first, can wee thinke he did so after, when he wrot the second time a replie against maister Champneies aunswere to his libell, and divulged it also? Or can we persuade our selues, that in so great a matter and cause of tumult, the superior Iesuit Father Garnet slept all the while, and let his subiects say, write, and doe what they lifted: If this be so, where then was his vigilancie and solicitude? VVhere was their obedience, their relation, their de∣pendence, which a Gentleman their deare friend and themselues so much brag vpon? But the libell plea∣sed them all, and much glorious vaunting they made of it, to be learned and substantiall; yea, happie was he that could shew himself most zealous in practising it against vs, and in persuading other Catholickes to doe the same.

Gent.

I know not what learning or substance that infortunate Treatise contained, but I heard a good priest, who is said also to be a singular diuine, to wit, maister Wright, I heard him (I say) affirme, that it was an vnlearned pamphlet, written without any shew at all of judgement, or discretion, or schollership, and emptie of learning and good substance, making much adoe about the nature of Schisme and penal∣ties incurred therby, which were not in controuersie, and childishly failing in the proofe of that point, which hee had vndertaken to proue, and concerned the cheefe point in the question, namely, that your delay in particular was schisme. And the same man

commended maister Champneies breefe answere to it, to be more judiciall, and scholler-like, than maister Licters was.

Pr.

VVell, they haue gone far in this bad course, whether they will relent, and humbly confesse their error, or stand obstinatly to defend it, I cannot guesse; and if they were not the men they bee, I would of twaine expect the former. But doe they thus or so, I hope their vncharitable devise in this case will turn, when truth shall appeare to their owne confusion, and our innocencie be made cleare to all men of vp∣right judgement.

Gent.

I pray God that truth may preuaile, inno∣cent men may be defended, and they that haue thus injuried their brethren, may repent, and make satis∣faction. But yet I pray you deliuer me in few words for my better satisfaction, some reason, why through your delay you incurred not the crime of schisme.

Pr.

I will doe it with a good will, and breefely. It is a doctrine generally receiued by all Divines and Canonists without contradiction, that the crime of Schisme requireth necessarily an intended seperati∣on and rebellion from the head of the church, as he is head and superior thereof, or from the members, as they be the members vnder that head.* 1.1 Schisma est (sayth S. Thomas) quo quis Summo Pontifici subesse renuit, cum quadam rebellione, intellige in quantum est summus Ponti∣fex, & membris eius communicare recusat, intellige in quan∣tum ei subiecta sunt. Schisme is that (sayth he) whereby one refuseth to bee subiect to the supreame Bishop, with a certaine rebellion, (vnderstand this) as hee is the supreame Bishop, and refuseth to communicat with the members subject to him, (vnderstand) for that they are subiect to him. And againe, Schismatici sunt, quisubesse renuunt summo Pontifici, & membris Ecclesiae ei subiectis communicare recusant. They are schismatickes

which refuse to be vnder the Pope, and to communi∣cate with the members of the church subiect to him. VVith this limitation still, as Archidiaconus sayth, Per recusationem eius iudicialis sententiae, non recognoscendo ipsum vt Caput Ecclesiae, By refusing his judicial sentence, not recognising him for head of the church. And Siluester also vpon S. Thomas,* 1.2 Notanter dixit, in quantum est sum∣mus Pontisex, id est, non recognoscendo eum vt Caput Ecclesiae. S. Thomas said purposely (in that he is Pope (that is) not acknowledging him for head of the church, Secus autem, in quantum singularis persona. For it is not so, if one doe it in respect the Pope is a single person; as if a man should be offended with him for some particular fact.* 1.3 And Caietane the Divine, Peccatum Schismatis tendit contra vnitatem, siue Ecclesiae, siue Capitis formaliter. The crime of Schisme tendeth against the vnitie either of the church or head formally (that is) as it is the church vnder that head, or the head of that church. And therefore, if one doubt reasonably whether this par∣ticular person be the Pope or no; and thereupon do not acknowledge himfully for the Pope, hee incur∣reth not thereby the crime of Schisme, no though he erre in iudgement, because there wanteth the forma∣litie of Schisme, which is this, to refuse him, as hee is vndoubtedly the Pope.* 1.4 And finally, the famous Law∣yer Nauar, Schisma peccatum est, quo quis se seperat ab vni∣tate Ecclesiae nolendo subesse ei, vel membris eius, quatenus sunt eius. Schisme is a sinne, whereby one seperateth himselfe from the vnitie of the Church, by refusing to be vnder it, or the members thereof, in regard they are the members thereof. So that by the iudgement of all the learned, this is an vndoubted veritie, That a man cannot be a schismaticke, vnlesse hee haue a vo∣luntary or entended rebellion against the Pope and the Church; with this formalitie, as hee is the Pope or head; and the church a body, or members vnder him,

(that is in one word) vnlesse he refuse to acknowledg him for his head, and to communicat with the mem∣bers, because they be vnder him: perceiue you this?

Gent.

Yea very well.

Priest.

Hereupon it is manifest, that we could not possibly be Scismaticks by our delay.

Gent.

I see no such consequence.

Priest.

Doe you not? you know that our delay to accept of the authoritie, and to submit our selues to the Archpr. was not because we denied the Pope to be Pope, and our head; nor that we refused to obey him as our head; nor for that wee would not admit the authoritie, and Man said to be instituted by him, formally, because they were sayd to be instituted by him. Vpon these respects, and formalities we delaied not, and yet without these we could not possibly be Schismaticks. But the whole controuersie stood in this, That the authoritie was inconuenient for our Church; and that it was doubtful, VVhether in truth the authoritie was instituted by the Pope, or not. This was vncertaine (I say) the Iesuits and Archpriest on the one side had no Bull, no Breue, no Apostolick letters, no authenticall Instrument (as is vsuall in all matters, both of great & lesser moment, proceeding from that See, and which in graunts of extraordina∣rie Iurisdiction and Prelacie is absolutely necessarie, before any bee bound in conscience to obey them) they had no such thing to shewe for proofe of that they claimed, and would violently inforce vpon vs, as his Ho. fact: and wee on the other side, partly for want of this Apostolicke VVrit and Testimonie; partly vpon other great reasons, had good cause to doubt, that his Hol. was not acquainted with it: yea the particulars of the authoritie implied in them so many, and so great inconueniences, that we thought it needfull to delay the acceptance thereof, till his

Ho. should haue better information of our Churches estate, and thereupon either recall the authoritie, if it were his deed, or in time reforme and change it in∣to some other more commodious to our afflicted Church. So that their propounding or promulgating this authoritie being insufficient, & no way binding vs in conscience, we bare off to receiue it, because it was vncertaine, and very likely not to haue bene in∣stituted by the Pope. The inconueniences also which it brought with it were no little cause of our delay; and we bare not off because we refused to be subject to the Pope, as Pope, or head of Christs Church, or to this, or any superioritie he should ordaine ouer us, as our supreme Pastor, which yet wee must haue done before we had incurred the crime of Schisme. Per∣ceiue you now how the case standeth, and how farre off we were from being Schismaticks?

Gent.

Very well.

Pr.

Nay further we were so free from that crime, and all the least disobedience to the See Apostolicke in that delay of ours, (and of this neither the Iesuits nor Archpr. could be ignorant, for they were priuie to our whole course, and actions in that matter, and they had also our owne word and hand-writing for submission in al things which were certainly notified vnto vs to be his Ho. his deed) that for men of their profession, learning, modestie, and experience, to condemne vs, yea in the secrecic of their owne con∣science to be guiltie of schisme, or the least disobedi∣ence, cannot bee defended by any reason from the grieuous sinne of temeritie, and rash judgment. But for them by their toungs, penns, and practise to di∣splay and cast abroad in the world, the turpitude of this infamie for crimes faigned against vs by them∣selues, and neuer once committed in thought by vs; and this also before the Church had examined, and

censured our case, this, this fact of the Iesuits & Arch∣priest, as it cannot possibly bee excused, nor escape the note of vncharitable audacitie, & extreame cru∣eltie in them, so of necessitie must it bring woonder to all posteritie, and be horrible in the sight of all ho∣nest men. VVhen they vrged the admittance of the authoritie, with so many threats and in so violent a manner, as they did all that yeare before the com∣ming of the Popes Breue, we alwaies told them this, and we deliuered it them in writing. First, that we ad∣mitted of whatsouer the Pope had done already, or would doe in time to come in our Church. Againe, that wee would presently and without delay receiue the new authoritie, and submit our selues vnto the Archpriest, if they could shew vnto vs the Popes let∣ters, and certainely make it knowne by any Aposto∣licall writ or authenticall instrument, that the autho∣ritie was instituted by him. Thirdly, we would in fact also doe the same without the shew of any Apostoli∣call letter, if the Archp. and two of the Iesuits would sweare vnto vs, and avow it vpon their priesthood, that this authority was ordained ouer vs by the Pope, or that his Ho. was acquainted with euery particular thereof. Againe, if they refused all these, wee offered further, presently to obey the authoritie, vpon condi∣tion they would agree with vs to send one or two of either side to Rome, which might informe his Ho. of the state of all, and bring vs certaine word what his will was we should doe in every thing. These procee∣dings and offers of ours will for euer yeeld a firm and irrefragable testimonie of our sinceritie, priest-like comportment, and innocencie in this cause; & more∣ouer, protect and keepe safe our good names from the slaunders of our aduersaries, in all degrees of schisme or disobedience, wherewith their ill affected minds by many sleightie shifts and deceitfull preten∣ces

so earnestly labour to staine them, and to bereaue vs of our credite, a treasure without which we desire not to liue on earth.

Gent.

Made you then these offers?

Priest.

Yea truly, neither can they denie it.

Gent.

VVhat answere did they returne to this?

Priest.

Marry they rejected them with much dis∣daine, and answered that we should absolutely sub∣scribe to the authoritie without any conditions at all or further delay, or else we should haue the censures of the Church laid vpon vs for our refusall; and the word was confirmed by the effect: for presently after the Archp. without scruple or blushing to execute any act of jurisdiction, whiles his authoritie, as yet not confirmed by his Ho. stood doubtfull; solemnely in writing with complements of a new seale, and all his titles, suspended M. Coll. M. Heb. and M. Mu.

Gent.

It is possible these men should thus foulely forget their profession and the rules of morall hone∣stie? for it seemeth, if this relation be true, that their principall drift and endeuour, was to harme and dis∣credite you, without respect of your good, or ill de∣seruing.

Priest.

For my relation, our aduersaries themselues cannot denie it to be very true. For the articles were written and deliuered them, and tossed in the hands of all Catholickes about London; they and their ad∣herents condemning them, wee and ours defending them to be just and indifferent. Touching their dis∣position in this doing, I shall need to say no more but this; It had more be seemed religious men, not vn∣willing perhaps to bee esteemed singular among others for good zeale, charitie, mortification, and wisedome; and it had more graced an Archp. newly chosen to be a Superior, a Father, and a Patterne of vertues to vs all (suppose his authority had been con∣firmed

firmed by the Pope) to haue had patience with vs a while, and to haue expected the censure and judge∣ment of his Ho. to whom only it belongeth to decide the controuersie, before they had disgraced and de∣famed vs for schismaticks and rebels against the See-Apostolick throughout the realm, and many parts of Christendome also. And this (I say) they should haue done for preuenting scandal, in case we had vndoub∣tedly been guiltie of those crimes, and that our fault could not haue been couered by any handsome ex∣cuse, or diminished by some fauourable interpreta∣tion. But for them to faigne and forge these crimes against vs; for them to be the first authors and divul∣gers of these horrible infamies, which wee neuer de∣serued in the least sort, that a sincere mind can de∣uise; for them to be the cheefest authors in the pra∣ctise of their owne erronious paradox; and this also before the Church had heard our cause, and condem∣ned vs, (as I said even now) I cannot perceiue how this could become them, or how it may bee justified by any meanes; it arguing a spirit as farre differing from charitie and discretion, as vices are opposit vn∣to vertues. They are not ignorant neither (which greatly augmenteth their fault, and cleareth vs from all disobedience) that it is an vsuall thing observed in all the particular churches and countries of Chri∣stendome, and by the light of naturall reason thoght necessary for the good gouernment of Gods people, that when any grace, benefite, office, or dignitie is granted by the people to any man; or when any au∣thoritie is instituted by him, which either was obtai∣ned by surreption and wrong information, or contai∣neth in it things prejudiciall and inconuenient to their church and people; the Pastors, Cleargie, and people doe deferre the admittance thereof, vntill they haue better informed his Ho. of all matters, and

none thinke themselues bound in such a case to re∣ceiue it, though it should come, as instituted and confirmed by his Hol. authenticall Breues or Buls, before he had vnderstood their difficulties, and the reasons of their fact.

Gent.

Did they not know this to be vsuall in Ca∣tholicke Churches?

Priest.

Yea, and more than this; for they knew that many princes in Christendome haue made lawes, and decreed, that nothing shall be admitted or put in ex∣ecution within their States, that commeth from the Pope (we speake not now of matters of faith, or man∣ners generally propounded, and commanded by his Ho. to be obserued in the Church) before it be seene and approoued by men appointed for that purpose, as well to haue been rightly obtained, and to be au∣thenticall, as to bee without injurie or prejudice to any.* 1.5 This is obserued (to let goe the rest) in Fraunce and Spaine, as Couarruuias noteth in his booke.

Gent.

Me thinkes it is very necessarie it should so be; for otherwise one badly disposed man might by collusion and wrong information obtaine that of the See Apostolicke, which would disturbe and annoy a whole Nation.

Priest.

In such cases their laws are not thought un∣lawfull, nor they which make or execute them, any way rebellious or disobedient. The Iesuits and Arch∣priest in a far lesse case haue condemned vs of schisme and disobedience, when they could shew vs for this authoritie neither Breue nor Bull, nor any authenti∣call writ from the See Apostolicke.

Gent.

And for my part also, it driueth strange con∣ceits into my head, and among the rest this is one, that I thinke the world will shortly haue an end. But now I clearely perceiue these reports, that you were schismatickes and disobedient to the See Apostolick

by your delay to accept the authoritie, to haue been meerely vntrue slaunders and calumnies; and these the more intollerable & injurious, in that they were inuented, cast abroad, maintained, and put in execu∣tion by the Iesuits and Arch-priest, whose fame and bare name of religion and authoritie, would induce almost all men to beleeue them, & to condemn you.

Priest.

So it is indeed, but yet if an Angell should proclaime a true man to bee a theefe, and vpon the Angels word all men should beleeue him so to bee; the just man were no theefe for all the multitude of beleeuers, & the Angels proclamation were no lesse than an vntrue slaunder and infamie. The like is in our case: yet with this notable disparitie, that the in∣uentors and setters abroad and defenders of this in∣famie against vs, bee but Iesuits and an Arch-priest, which we know to be no Angels. But to conclude this part; our appealing at that time, and our sending to Rome to know his Ho. his good pleasure, least in any thing wee might offend through ignorance in these vncertainties, manifestly sheweth vs to haue beene free from all spot of schisme, and disobedience to the See Apostolicke. For schismatickes, not acknowled∣ging the Pope to bee their head, make no recourse nor refuge to him, as to their superiour: and rebelli∣ous and disobedient persons to the Pope, seeke not with so great paines and charges (as we did) to know his will, that they may conforme themselues therun∣to. VVherefore this part of their report deserueth no better name nor place, than the title & predicament of an vntrue slaunder. Now, if yet you rest unsatisfied with this that I haue said, touching schisme and diso∣bedience, I referre you to our reasons, and to the let∣ter which maister Champney writ to his friend concer∣ning this matter, and to M. Doctor Bishops answer to the letter of Fa. Parson: and for a firmer rocke where∣on

you or any may safely stay their judgement, and resolue what you will adhere vnto, till the contrarie be defined by gods Church, to the graue censure of the Diuines of Paris: For the sentence of that fa∣mous Vniuersitie doth acquit vs of schisme and sinne in our action of delay; repelleth the vntrue flaun∣ders cast against vs by our aduersaries, and should cause all men of wisdome and gouernment both to temper their tongues in this case, and to suspend their judgements. For who is he that is wise and hath the feare of God before him, that will aduenture, ei∣ther to condemne vs in his owne heart, or to report vs in the world to be guiltie of schisme or sinne for our delay, now after so many learned and famous Di∣uines of that Vniuersitie, vpon mature deliberation and discussion of our case, haue pronounced vs to be free from these objected slaunders?

Gent.

I haue not seen as yet the reasons you speak of, but I expect dayly to haue them. And for the sen∣tence of the Sorbonistes in Paris, I haue seene it, and me thinkes it justifieth your actions very greatly. But against it I haue heard objected by your aduersaries: First, that the information was not truly set downe: And again, that their sentence is not to be respected in this case, considering they be knowne aduersaries to the Iesuits, and would be glad by any occasion, to displeasure and discredite them.

Pr.

VVhere they except against the censure of the Sorbonists, that the case was wrongfully propo∣sed, it is a silly shift, so fond & childish also, that euen the Iesuits owne friends are much ashamed thereof; and all indifferent men hold it too too grosse and ri∣diculous. For the case was propounded in such mani∣fest and expresse tearmes, and so truly and directly set downe, that euen our aduersaries themselues can hardly find any way to make it seeme insufficient;

but shift haue they none at all to make it seeme vn∣truly deliuered. And in this it is more fauorably set downe for them than for vs, in that sundry of the cheefest reasons for which wee bare off to accept of that authoritie, are passed ouer and omitted, without any mention at all.

Gen.

In troth, me thinkes the case is very plainely and fully, and with great indifferencie put downe; and this shift of reprouing the information alwayes seemed to me and to many others, a meere cavill or friuolous wrangling; which is an vsuall thing to men that want substantiall matter to alleadge for excuse of their fault; and when through lacke of humilitie they had rather stand to defend their owne errour, than acknowledge it. And in this case, verily nothing more moued my selfe and diuers others to conceiue very well of you and your dealing in this controuer∣sie, and to feare some great defect of sinceritie in your aduersaries, than the prohibition which the Ie∣suits and Archp. made against this censure of the Sor∣bonists; that none should defend it, no, albeit it pro∣ceeded vpon true information of the cause. For what other thing could men conceiue hereby, but that the Archp. and Iesuits, by whose aduise and direction he made and published that decree, intended to sup∣presse the truth by their power and authoritie; to beare you downe by strong hand, and to ouer-rule our Church by their owne wils onely, without regard of equitie, reason, or conscience.

Pr.

VVhat should they doe, but frame their buil∣ding answerable to their foundation which they had laied at the first, and make the progres of their work conformable with their beginning? They had set vpon vs with great zeale, and in the feruency of their spirit defamed vs of schisme; they had made a most scandalous seperation from vs, themselues, and their

adherents, shunning vs in all conversation and com∣munion, as well in humane things, as divine; this once done, what remained, but to prosecute the mat∣ter with the same fervor and vehemencie of spirit, as they had attempted it at the first? They were in cre∣dite, authoritie was on their side, the world swayed with them, were it right or wrong they did, it should be borne out by the cloake of religion, authoritie, disobedience, and friends. And what? durst a few poore disgraced priests make resistance? durst they examine the actions of religious persons, men of so rare perfection, or mutter against the command and decrees of so extraordinarie a superiour? It was not likely; but in case they should giue the attempt, no doubt, but they should bee discredited, and most se∣uerely punished to their eternall shame and confu∣sion. No marvell therefore, if with this aduauntage, and vpon this hope they were so earnest and so bold, as to prohibite in that sort the defence of that sen∣tence, albeit the case were rightly propounded vnto these learned men.

Gent.

Supposing the information to haue beene true, the prohibition must of necessity be very grosse and farre out of square. For besides that in the judge∣ment of wise men, it were to patronise erronious do∣ctrine, and bolster vp injurious dealing in them that vntruly defamed you of schisme, it toucheth also the Divines of that famous Vniuersitie with no small dis∣credit, as hauing right information of the case, to be men either so very ignorant and doltish, that they could not judge and decide it rightly; or else so void of grace and honestie, that they would wittingly im∣pugne a knowne truth.

Pr.

So it is, and certainely the second part of our aduersaries aunswere implieth a conceit of no lesse vile disposition to be in those diuines, than this latter

you spoke of. For when they reject their censure, and judge it worthie of no credit, because (as they say) the Sorbonists are enemies to the Iesuits, it implieth, that they judge them to be men of that bad disposition, that they will pronounce an erronious sentence con∣trary to their owne knowledge and conscience.

Gent.

By my faith, I thinke it implieth little lesse than so, if a man may speake in plaine English.

Pr.

Iudge you then, how our aduersaries through their zeale in selfe-loue are caried headlong beyond all the limits of modestie, and how they blush not to defend their erronious paradoxes with injuring any; nor feare to cast disgrace vpon whosoeuer, that for defence of truth shall stand in their way.

Gent.

VVho would haue imagined, that so daun∣gerous an humour had reigned in men that pretend singular perfection in their state, & would be thoght mortified of their inordinat affections aboue al other either secular or religious?

Pr.

Not I truly, vnlesse too much experience had proued it so to be.

Gent.

But the Iesuits seeme not to do any thing, nor at all to intermeddle with the affaires of you semi∣narie priests, but they referre all to the Arch-priest: and therefore not they, but he and his Assistants on∣ly deserue the blame, if any thing be done amisse.

Pr.

VVould to God it were so, that they were not intermeddlers, for then things would not haue come to this wofull plight in which they be now. But assure your selfe, it was not for nothing that the Iesuits pro∣cured this authoritie, and made choice of this man to be Archpriest, and others to be assistants, all with∣out the consent and knowledge of our Cleargie; and moreouer prouided by a speciall caveat in the instru∣ctions, that in all matters of importance the Archp. should take th'aduise and direction of the superiour

Iesuit in England. Againe, that the whole authoritie with the Archpriest and Assistants, should not be ab∣solute of themselues, or depend of the liking or disli∣king of our Church next vnto his Ho. but alwaies be depending of the will of Fa. Parson, as it should please him to moue the Cardinall Protector to alter or dis∣pose of all: for thus the Archpriest, the Assistants, and all our Church are surely curbed. And lastly, that the Iesuits by such violent means enforced vpon our Cleargie this authoritie, before it was confirmed by his Ho. or they had obtained any Apostolical letters, authenticall writ, or commission to ascertaine vs of the validitie thereof: assure your selfe (I say) that all this was not done in vaine by these men of so rare prouidence, but all their diligence and endeauours tended principally to this, at this marke they aimed, That not only they might be exempted from al sub∣ordination to any superiour in our Church, but also haue the greatest stroke in ruling our Cleargie, and sitting closely at the helme, steere the whole ship, turne, and dispose of all as they listed, and yet be not easily perceiued to haue any motion or meddling at all. And in truth so it is; the Iesuits doing whatsoeuer pleaseth themselues, and cunningly vsing the Archp. his name, voice, hand, and ministerie to any intende∣ment or plot of theirs; they will not be seen authors or agents in any thing, but persuade vs all to be obe∣dient to our superior the Archp. The Archp. indeed and the Assistants are culpable, in that either they will not see the polliticke drifts of the Iesuits, which tend to the inestimable disaduantage and detriment of our Church; (for there was neuer the like miserie and diuision among our cleargie & people at home, and abroad in the seminaries, as hath beene since the death of the blessed Cardinall Alane, when the Iesuits began pollitickly to stirre, contend, and rule) or per∣ceiuing

them, they either will not, or dare not to op∣pose themselues, stay the ruine, or seeke for redresse: but contrariwise, either for pleasing the Iesuits, and gratifying their aduancers; or through feare to for∣goe their roumes; or vpon some particular respect and motiue, let all goe to wracke, and be as forward to execute blindly and without discussion and judge∣ment, any thing, be it neuer so vnjust and harmefull against their brethren as the Iesuits are ready to de∣uise, and dilligent to set them on against any whom∣soeuer they list to worke displeasure.

Gent.

Me thinks it is very inconuenient, that there being these great contentions betweene the Iesuits and priests, they should haue any stroke at all either in the gouernment of our Church of England, or of our seminaries beyond the seas. For thus they may easily displeasure both the students abroad, and the priests at home, against which they haue taken con∣ceits, or with whō they haue had quarell at any time.

Pr.

It is so indeed, and this is the very bane of all our Churches peace. For many of our towardliest stu∣dents beeing made made contents in the colledges, and hauing had contentions with the Iesuits there; as they on the one side returne home possessed with humors of discontentment & auersions; so find they here the like disposition in our Iesuits to that their brethren had beyond; and their entertainement in England by these Fathers is vsually worse and more intollerable than that which they suffered by those in Rome or Spaine. But this is besides our matter. Let vs returne to the second part of the report (to wit) That we disobey the Arch-priest. VVherin I pray you is this disobedience of ours, deseruing in the opi∣nion of our aduersaries, and their too credulous ad∣herents, all these infamous outcries? name for them some particular, if you can.

Gent.

Nay in troth, I can name no particular more, onely than that you disobey his precepts & decrees; and being suspended and depriued of your faculties by him, you celebrate notwithstanding and use your faculties, as though he had no authoritie ouer you in these cases.

Pr.

VVe will take all these for particulars, and answere them. But before we proceed any further, I pray you let me aske you one question or twaine.

Gent.

Agreed, I will answere them if I can.

Priest.

Is there no difference of superiours in the world?

Gent.

Yes doubtlesse there is, and that very great.

Pr.

Haue they all equall authoritie and jurisdicti∣on ouer their subjects?

Gen.

No, God onely is absolute Lord, and indepen∣ding, hauing supreame power and soueraignetie in euery respect ouer all his creatures; all superiors vn∣der him haue their authoritie and power limitted, euery one in his degree and order.

Pr.

Then euery superiour vnder God, is not to be obeyed in all respects, or in euery thing hee may commaund, but in such things onely, as fall vnder his authoritie, and within the compasse of his juris∣diction.

Gent.

It must needs be so. For if a superiours will onely were the measure of his power and authoritie in such manner, that he must be obeyed in whatsoe∣uer he will commaund; there could be no difference among superiors, but all should be alike; and in this, all equall with God himselfe, who may commaund what hee will, and must bee obeyed in all hee com∣maundeth.

Pr.

It is evident then that our Archpriest is not so absolute a superiour ouer our cleargie, that he may commaund what he will; or that wee are bound to

obey him in whatsoeuer he commaundeth.

Gent.

No man is bound to obey him in any thing hee commaundeth beyond the authoritie graunted him: for he hath no more power nor jurisdiction ouer any, than is expressely giuen him by the words of his commission.

Pr.

All is well; then are wee not disobedient to him, if we refuse to obey him in his decrees and pre∣cepts, which he hath no authoritie to make, by any thing appearing in his commission.

Gent.

True, but it is to be supposed, that hee will not in his decrees exceed the bounds of his commis∣sion and authoritie.

Pr.

VVe know hee should not exceed them, but we may easily suppose an vntruth, if we suppose him or a greater superiour than he, to containe himselfe within his limits, when the case standeth as this doth in a matter of controuersie, wherein himselfe is a principall partie: and when in all his proceedings hetherto he hath shewed a vehement desire to ouer∣beare all onely by strong hand and authoritie. It is no rare thing for superiours, which list not to forgoe their roumes, but delight to see themselues aloft, and perhaps would euer bee mounting higher, to chal∣lenge more than their due; and where their own in∣terest may enter, to encroach also what they may. The subjects sufferance, and yeelding to the force and injurie, is often taken by the superiour for title good ynough, for whatsoeuer he listeth by iniquitie to obtrude and claime.

Gent.

Dayly experience proueth this to bee ouer∣true in many superiours; giue them an inch, and usu∣ally they will take an ell, vnlesse they be all the bet∣ter disposed, and seeke in their prelacie more the glo∣rie of God and the good of their subjects, than their owne interest.

Priest.

Now therefore let all supposals passe, and let vs come to the facts themselues, and by them judge what he and we haue done.

First it doth not appeare by the words of his com∣mission, That the Archp. hath any authoritie at all to make new lawes and decrees at his owne pleasure, which may bind vs to obey them; or for breaking whereof he may justly inflict vpon vs any penaltie at all. By his commission he is placed ouer the semina∣rie priests in England and Scotland in the degree and authoritie of an Arch-priest; but absolutely to make lawes and decrees with the seuerest penalties for such as violate them, was neuer heard of in Gods church to belong to the office of an Archpriest: on∣ly by vertue of his cōmission he may Dirigere, admonere, reprehendere, vel etiam castigare, cum opus crit. Direct, ad∣monish, reprehend, or chastice also when need shall bee: but there is no word of making new lawes and decrees, and therefore it is to be supposed, that in all these points of his authority, he is exactly to obserue the lawes of Gods church, to which we yeelded our selues, when we vndertook our Ecclesiasticall estate, and not to his will: and that he ought to proceed ac∣cording to the ordinary course of Ecclesiasticall Ca∣non, already set downe to his hand, and not he to lay vpon vs at his pleasure new burdens and bonds more rigorous and intollerable than are vsed in any part of the Christian world besides. If he make lawes and decrees, not hauing authoritie so to doe, they are of no force to bind vs to obey, and consequently it is no disobedience to resist them.

Gent.

This must needs be thus, if he haue no au∣thoritie to make new lawes, and decrees.

Pr.

Surely as far as we can perceiue by the words of his Commission, he hath none at all.

Gent.

Then are you freed from the slaunderous re∣port

of disobedience, for not obseruing his decrees, and precepts.

Pr.

I hope we be. But yet further, let vs suppose he had full authoritie to make decrees; doth this proue, that we are disobedient, if wee refuse to obey, and resist them?

Gent.

Me thinke it doth.

Priest.

Doth it so? what? will you say that vnjust decrees are to bee obeyed? or perhaps thinke you that this Archp. is so infallibly assisted by Gods spi∣rit, that he can make no decrees but just and good?

Gent.

No, I will neither affirme nor thinke either of these twaine. For it is manifest, that injust & hurt∣full lawes, as they are not to be accounted lawes, so are they not to be obeyed. And againe, the Archp. is a man subject to errors, as others be; and then espe∣cially an error is to be feared, when being a partie in controuersies, hee goeth about to decree any thing prejudicial to his aduersaries: for in these cases aboue all the rest, self-loue draweth him from indifferency, and enclineth him to respect cheefely his owne par∣ticular. And on the other side, a mind auersed from his aduersaries, spurneth him forward to deuise a∣gainst them partiall and greeuous decrees.

Pr.

The Archpr. cannot with any shew or colour of reason charge vs with disobedience to him, except onely in that we obey not his decrees: we acknow∣ledge him for our Arch-priest, and to haue as ample jurisdiction ouer vs, as by his commission hee can claime. In all things we are ready to obey him, wher∣in he hath authoritie to commaund. This one thing (through his owne, and the Iesuits renuing it after it was once forgiuen and ended) resteth in controuer∣sie between him, them, and vs, (to wit) VVhether by reason of our delay to accept the authoritie before it was confirmed by the Popes Breue, wee incurred

the crimes of enormious disobedience, rebellion, and schisme against the See Apostolicke or no. He and they auerre we did; we denie it: hee and they haue slaundered, and doe continually defame vs, as guil∣tie of those sinnes faigned by themselues. VVe haue stood, and stand in defence of our assured innocen∣cie; and thinke it most violent iniquitie to bereaue vs of our good names vpon a priuat opinion of their owne, before our cause either at home or abroad be orderly heard and tried, and we also condemned by Gods Church. Hee and they forbid vs vnder most greeuous penalties, to defend our selues from their calumnies, or our good names from their vndeserued slaunders: in which prohibition, because it is very injust, we know our selues no way bound in consci∣ence to obey them. He and they cease not to wrong vs, they keepe no measure nor meane in doing vs in∣juries, but dayly oppresse vs with the heauiest, and plainely intollerable afflictions: we being denied all hearing & triall of our cause at home, flie by appeale to his Holinesse. He and they exclaiming against this our fact, heap vpon vs all disgrace and punishments: we arme our selues with patience against the worst. Now you see all our disobedience to the Arch-priest is in these two points. First, in that wee defend our good names against his and the Iesuits manifest slan∣ders. Againe, in that we appeale to his Ho. for ending the controuersie, wherein the Archp. is a principall partie, and our violent aduersarie. Both these I con∣fesse are directly against the Archp. his will and de∣crees: (for his decrees are (as I said) that wee should not defend the schisme and rebellion, wherewith he and the Iesuits haue defamed vs, and that wee shall not appeale without his license.) But to defend ones owne good name injustly taken away, is lawfull by the law of Nature it selfe: and to appeale to the See

Apostolicke from the injust oppressions of any supe∣riour in the world, yea without his license and against his will, hath euer been and will bee alwayes lawfull in the Church of God; and consequently, it cannot be truly judged in vs any disobedience to the Archp. when we resist him and his decrees in those cases. For as he can make no law to subuert the law of Nature touching the defence of a mans owne good name; so can hee make no decree to prohibite or to hinder appeales from himselfe to the Pope: and whatsoe∣uer he decreeth in these cases, are of their owne na∣ture frustrate, and not to be obeyed by any.

Gent.

It is evident, that this report of your diso∣bedience and rebellion against the Archpr. is a meer calumnie, if you disobey him in no other decrees but these, wherein if you should obey him, you should shew your selues very foolish, yea, very culpable, and disobedient to God the authour of Natures law, and to the constitutions of holy Church.

Pr.

It is so indeed; but yet the very word, and sinne of disobedience imputed to vs by men of their cal∣ling, entereth farre, and euen at the first hearing ta∣keth deepe root in the hearts of the most vertuously disposed, moouing them to great aversions, and zea∣lous invectiues against vs, albeit they know little or nothing how the case standeth. And our aduersaries play vpon this aduantage to stir vp all sorts of people against vs: For who is he that will not vtterly mislike a disobedient priest?

Gent.

Disobedience truely is a foule crime, discom∣mendable, and very odious in a Catholike priest, if he be infected therewith and this almost in the eyes of all persons, as well bad as good. But yet if a Catho∣like priest shall be falsly charged or slaundered with this sinne, the calumnie cannot disgrace him, when the truth shall come to light.

Pr.

I grant all this, yet in the meane season, whiles truth is by violence suppressed, the best that is may sustain great losse in his good name. For there be few which either know or consider how far a superior is to be obeyed; and the most take euery opposition and repugnance to a knowne Superiours will or precept, to be the sinne of disobedience, without further dis∣cussion of things; and this the rather, in cases where the Superiour and his Adherents are holden to be good men, and the marke they shoot at, is preten∣ded to be some speciall good thing, as the glory of God, peace, and the like.

Gent.

For pretences of good ends, no superiour will fail to haue great store, no not in the worst things he commaundeth: and therefore me thinketh it ne∣cessary, that before any man be defamed (especially by priests and religious men) of disobedience and re∣bellion to his superior, because he resisteth his com∣maundement; first the thing commaunded bee loo∣ked into, and tried whether it bee good or euill; if good, then againe it be considered, whether the su∣perior haue authoritie or eommission to commaund that thing or no. For if a superiour commaund an ill thing, as to kill; or defame an innocent; to steale; or any thing against the law of God, of Nature, or of holy Church, he is not to be obeyed, neither is his re∣pugnance to be condemned for disobedience. And againe, if he commaund a good thing, the which yet exceedeth the limits of his authoritie, a man is no way bound to obey; and his refusall cannot justly bee called disobedience. For otherwise I know not how our refusall to obey our temporall princes com∣maundement for going to Church, and for practise of our religion, or any other magistrats injust com∣maundement, may be excused or defended from the crime of disobedience and rebellion in the Iesuits

and Arch-priest themselues.

Pr.

If men had considered and obserued this, we had not been slaundered, nor generally condemned for disobedient persons, as we are, for refusing to obey the Arch-priest in his decrees; some of which were against the law of God and Nature, & others against the lawes and liberties of holy Church, as I said be∣fore. But the authors of these infamies, and the lea∣ders of this vngracious daunce to the headie and ig∣norant Laitie, Maius peccatum habent, haue the grea∣ter sinne.

Gent.

I will not judge these men to haue any spice of that disease, which our Saviour noted to bee in some men, That could spie a mote in their neighbors eye, but not discerne a beame in their owne: or that in censuring other mens actions, could excolare culi∣cem, make bones of a Gnat; & Camclum deglutire, and in their owne case easily swallow vp a Cammell. I will not condemne them for such (I say.) But I re∣member that once a Iesuit told mee, how the Pope (vpon some great cause & consideration, doubtlesse) sent a precept or a decree to the religious houses in Rome, thereby prohibiting vnder great penalties, That any should vse the knowledge gotten of a mans estate in the Sacrament of confession, to any polli∣ticke end, or matter in any externall affaire whatsoe∣uer. Thus much I remember he told me, for the rest contained in the Apostolical writ, let it passe. VVhen it was brought to the Iesuits, they singularly among all other orders would not presently accept thereof, but required, that their generall might haue accesse and licence to deale with his Ho. before they recei∣ued it: the answer being brought to the Pope, forth∣with hee commaunded his decree or precept to bee receiued by them without further delay, vnder paine of excommunication, ipso facto to be incurred. In this

case loe, when the matter concerned their owne par∣ticular, they thought it no disobedience to refuse for the time to accept and to submit themselues to this commaundement or decree of his Ho. in a mat∣ter of so great importance. No, it was no fault nei∣ther (in their conceits) for them only to shew singu∣laritie in thadmittance of this decree of their supe∣rior, and to make delaies in receiuing that which all other orders willingly admitted at the first. But in this case controuersied betweene them and you, the good men I perceiue are more zealous and for∣ward, and would bee loath to let escape any shew of disobedience in you, against which they should not exclaime and write to your greatest discredite that may be.

Pr.

I also haue heard of some thing like to this, which you relate from the mouth of a Iesuit, be it true or false; but this which I will tell you, is known to all Christendome to be true. About eight yeares agoe it happened, that the Iesuits had some discon∣tentments with their Generall, and were desirous to haue some things reformed in their order, for which causes they of Spaine labored to haue generall con∣gregation. The Generall with the Italian Iesuits resi∣sted their endeuors, and did what they might to hin∣der it, for such a capitulo or congregation had neuer been used among them, but at the election of a new Generall. This strife was great, and continued long. And at the last the Spaniards, assisted by the old king of Spaine, prevailed: and thereupon a generall con∣gregation was holden at Rome by commaundement of the Pope. Now this contention was betweene the Iesuits and their Superiour, and they enforced him against his will (no doubt but vpon sufficient cause) to haue this vnusuall conuention. They had vowed obedience in the strictest manner; their Superiours

will should haue been an Oracle, yet notwithstan∣ding they proceeded against him, and procured the thing they thought convenient for their societie, whether hee would or no: by which practise of the best of their order it is manifest, that euen where obedience is vowed, the subjects may resist their Su∣periour his will and commandement, vpon a just and reasonable cause; much more when there is no such vow to bind: but if some of our English Iesuits, or their whole societie, for our disgrace will condemne vs of disobedience for resisting the Archpriest in any sort, or for refusing to obey his decrees, of what qua∣litie soeuer they shall be, we must return vpon them∣selues the same reproch (but in a higher degree) for contending with their Fa. Generall in any sort, or for any cause. Or if againe for credite of their societie they list to excuse their brethren, and free them from disobedience in that contention, because in many cases the subjects may resist their Superiours will or commaundement: if they doe this for loue to their owne credite, wee may entreat them for Christian charities sake to excuse our fact, or to cleare vs of this horrible crime and slaunder of disobedience for our refusing to obey the Archp. in his decrees opposit to the lawes of nature and holy church.

Gent.

It were good reason they should so doe in this matter of his vnjust decrees. But how can you excuse your selues from disobedience, when you vse your faculties after hee hath depriued you of them; and yee celebrate, notwithstanding he hath suspen∣ded you? Doe you not acknowledge him to haue jurisdiction ouer you in these cases?

Priest.

Yes we doe, but yet in such wise prescribed vnto him and limitted, as if hee attempt to doe any thing beyond his commission, it is of no effect nor validitie.

Gent.

This must needs bee true, for it were an vn∣reasonable and disorderly authoritie, if it left all at his libertie, especially to inflict punishments at his pleasure without more.

Priest.

His authoritie is to punish priests for crimes committed, either by suspending the vse of their fa∣culties, or by depriuing them altogether: as for sus∣pending from the aulter, we thinke hee wanteth au∣thoritie. But where there is no crime committed, where no crime is proued against a priest, nor he ma∣nifestly convicted thereof, the Archp. hath no au∣thoritie in any sort to punish him. Now touching our case, he hath suspended some, others he hath quite bereaued of their faculties: but for what crimes hath he done it, and in what manner? Hee hath not con∣uented nor cōvicted any of our priests of those faults which he and the Iesuits haue faigned against them: without proofe of the crime, without hearing the ac∣cused, without citing them to aunswere; vpon meere fictions and vncharitable surmises of his owne and theirs, he hath proceeded against some, as men guil∣tie of schisme, rebellion, enormious disobedience to the See Apostolicke and his owne authoritie; against others, for defending their good name in this slander; against others, for asking satisfaction; others he affli∣cteth for setting their hand to the appeale without his licence; others, for persuading both parts to send two priests to Rome quietly with the state of the con∣trouersie, that so it might be ended by his Holinesse; others, for that they will not recall their appeale, and yeeld to his opinion, no lesse injurious to them, than erronious in diuinitie and learning: yea, if any de∣fend the censure of the Vniuersitie of Paris, hee also tasteth of his whip.

Gent.

These proceedings are the most disorderly and injust that euer I haue heard.

Priest.

They are no better than I tell you.

Gent.

Surely it were impietie to thinke, that his Ho. would giue him authoritie to afflict and punish innocent priests in this manner.

Priest.

So it were. And therfore proceeding against vs without authoritie, all his suspentions and depri∣uations are of no valliditie, but to be contemned as friuolous, proceeding from an vncharitable disposi∣tion in him, and the Iesuits his counsellors. Thus you see, that in truth we are not justly to be touched with any note of schism, rebellion, or disobedience against either the See Apostolicke or the Arch-priest: and that these reports are manifest calumnies and vntrue slaunders, purposely deuised by our emulous aduer∣saries to delude mens eyes, and to stirre vp the world against vs, to our discredite. Now if you be satisfied in these points of schisme, rebellion, and disobedi∣ence, let vs goe to another report.

Gent.

For these things mee thinke you haue said sufficiently, and I know not what to reply more than I haue done.

Pr.

VVell, go to then, what is the next slaunder?

The second Slaunder.

Gent.

They giue it out all ouer that you be daun∣gerous men, because you are extraordinarily fauou∣red by the priuie Counsell and State, by whom they say you are maintained, and diuers of you haue free accsse and familiaritie with them and the Bishop of London, M. Waid, and others: which are great pre∣sumptions that you be scarse honest men, or to bee trusted by Catholickes. For (say they) these with whom you deale, and of whom you find these singu∣lar fauours, are professed aduersaries to Gods holy Church and to all Catholickes, and therefore it can∣not but yeeld probable and very pregnant suspition

of bad dealing, and of treason to the common cause, that you onely should haue friendly entertainment, conference, and accesse at your pleasures.

Pr.

They be our aduersaries, no maruell then if they speake the worst of vs they can, and vpon their euill affection take hold of every occasion to surmise and report the euill we neuer did nor thought. You see how vpon their own priuat opinion only, against all right and conscionable proceeding, where many as learned and judiciall as they, held the contrarie, they condemned and defamed vs of schisme, rebelli∣on, and disobedience (all Diuines and Canonists re∣proue their fact, and all posteritie will admire their impudencie, their want of charitie, or skill, or both) and in the rest also their zeale, spurneth them for∣ward to deuise and vomit out any thing that may de∣file our credites. Indeed their slaunders carie a great shew of probabilitie, because they are in an odious matter, and seeme to proceed from an honest mind, zealous and sincere: but let the particulars bee once discussed, and the vizard of deceit taken away, and then foorthwith the surmise and report will appeare in it owne likenesse to be a meere calumnie and vn∣true slaunder. First therefore, where they say that we bee men of daunger; it is the slaunder of an enemie, deseruing no more credite, than their reason is of force to proue. VVhat is their reason then? Because we are singularly fauored by the priuie Counsell and state? Admit it bee so, is this sufficient to prooue vs daungerous? If it be not, then is it a pernitious ca∣lumnie, to account vs daungerous for a cause which is not sufficient to conuince vs to be daungerous. If it be, then must it follow, that not only some of them∣selues, but many also of their best lay friends in En∣gland haue beene and are in the same predicament with vs. Had not Fa. Hawood Iesuit such extraordinary

fauour of the lord of Leicester, that (besides the secret plottings & conferences which were betweene them before the Iesuits apprehension) when the Father was in durance in the tower, he only had there more libertie, and found more friendly vsage than all the priests in the other prisons throughout England: yea when many Catholicke priests were closely shut vp, rigorously vsed, and cruelly executed; Fa. Hawood lay at ease and safetie in the tower, and at the time of his banishment all men reported him to haue found singular fauours aboue the rest touching his prouisi∣on. This Fa. also had many conferences with Sir Chri∣stopher Hatton, and receiued fauours of him before hee was apprehended? VVhat should we say hereupon, that Fa. Hawood was a daungerous Iesuit? Or rather, that these extraordinarie fauours are not sufficient to proue a Iesuit or a priest to be daungerous. Father Bosgraue another Iesuit, found not he also extraordi∣narie fauours in prison and banishment, whiles many a good seminarie priest was straightly handled & put to death? I hope we may truly say, That neither ma∣ster Bluet nor master Clarke, nor any other of vs whom the Iesuits and Archp. would discredite by accesse and familiaritie with the magistrats, haue as yet con∣descended so farre vnto them, as that Fa. Hawood did; and yet was he not defamed thereby to be a dange∣rous man. VVe let passe the two ancient and famous Iesuits, Fa. Langdale, and another, either of which had remained in the societie aboue twentie years before their Apostacie, (which argueth that al Iesuits be not Saints before they breake out of their order) wee let these passe (I say) and come to Fa. Iohn Gerard, who is said to haue found more fauourable entreatie by our common aduersary, during the time of his indurance, than any of our priests imprisoned in those time, or than those which now they so much exclaim against;

he is said to haue ben absent from his prison, and this by license 2, 3, 4. or mo nights and dayes together.

Gent.

Thus much I also haue heard of him, & that hee had more fauour and libertie than all his fellow prisoners besides. But this was procured, as I heard, by great bribes, for he had alwayes greater store of money than all the rest.

Pr.

I condemne not the man, nor thinke him dan∣gerous for so doing. He found fauor among our ene∣mies to haue libertie: if he be to be excused, or not to be judged daungerous, because he procured it by his money; then, to find extraordinary fauour among the heretickes, is no true cause why a Iesuit or a Priest should be thought daungerous. And why should not our priests in this case be as free from slander and in∣famie (if they can procure to themselues by other honest meanes without money the same or more li∣bertie) as a Iesuit that bought it with his mony? I will not now rehearse what some magistrats in high place haue said of secret meetings & conferences between some of the priuie counsell & some Iesuits; nor what some of the Iesuits entirest fauourits haue whispered to their friends, concerning straunge plots and deui∣ses for no trifles (I wisse) betweene the Iesuits & some of high roome and dignitie in the State. Be it true as they reported, or be it false, (as spoken but for a brag to win the Iesuits mo friends and credit, as men able to dispose of all) it much forceth not, all finally com∣meth to this issue, That we be not daungerous men, because we receiue extraordinary fauor of the state. For if they also had conference, and withall hold this principle, themselues also should be dangerous men with vs, which they will not graunt: if they had not, yet in their conceits, and by these reports that they had, when the case is their owne, they thinke it no sufficient cause to account them daungerous for fin∣ding

fauours and conferring with the priuie Coun∣sell: and so they acquit vs also of the same slaunder. For there can bee shewed no disparitie nor reason, why this may not be as free for a Catholicke priest, as for a Iesuit.

Gent.

You seeme to conclude this rightly, vnlesse they wil say, that their dealing with the priuie Coun∣sell, or the fauors they find of the State, cannot bring them into suspition or obloquie to bee daungerous men, as it must doe priests; because they are religious mortified men, fast and sure from corrupting or de∣prauing by the magistrates, as priests bee not, which are passionate men, looser of life, and more incon∣stant, and therefore this daunger is more to be feared in them, and lesse in the Iesuits.

Pr.

It may well be that they carry no worse conceit of themselues, nor better of vs than this: and I dare vndertake for them, that howsoeuer their charitie extendeth to vs, their owne good word shall neuer be wanting to themselues. But these chimericall con∣ceits and fictions do not alter the nature of the thing we speake of. And for seminarie priests in England, it is manifest, that they haue laboured in Christs vine∣yard with no lesse fruit, & consummated their cour∣ses in prisons and death, with no lesse courage and zeale, than any Iesuit hath done hetherto; yea, euen such priests as these perfect Iesuits, reputed to bee most imperfect (and with whom they haue had great contentions in the colledges beyond) haue matched them in the performance of all Christian duties whē the triall was made, by enduring prisons, miseries, and death. But as the huswiues prouerbe goeth, All these fathers geese must be swans: They be Iesuits, ergo peerelesse.

Gent.

I perceiue you, but what were you about to say of their friends?

Pr.

No more but this, that by slaundering vs to be dangerous men, by reason of some fauors we are said to find at the priuie counsels hands, they bring the same slaunder vpon their best friends.

Gent.

How may this follow?

Priest.

Marry thus; who knoweth not that diuers of the principall Catholickes in England for tempo∣rall estate are their best friends? And who is ignorant againe, that they haue found and receiue still very extraordinarie and singular fauours from sundry of the priuie Counsell, such as no other Catholickes in England besides themselues can haue? If these great ones be not daungerous persons, by reason of their extraordinarie fauours, why should they thinke vs and our friends to be, if at any time wee reape the benefite.

Gent.

I know no reason why they should, vnlesse perhaps the Iesuits affection and conceit of the per∣fection of all such as they deale with, make this diffe∣rence, where in truth there is none. But yet they say that some of you goe voluntarily to the Bishop of London, and haue dayly conferences with him, and other our aduersaries; which thing is very suspitious, and hath not beene vsed by any Iesuite, or any of their side.

Priest.

Indeed the Iesuits carry a higher conceit of themselues than they doe of our priests, & the same must others also carry of them, how small ground or cause soeuer there be thereof, or else farewell friend∣ship, and you are their aduersarie. Correspondent al∣so hereunto, is the opinion and estimation which the Iesuits and their people haue of such every where, as depend vpon them, and haue yeelded themselues into their guidance, in respect of all such Catholicks as deale onely with the seminarie priests. For onely this dependance on them is cause ynough why they

should bee thought mortified, zealous, perfect, and saints: and the rest for want of this, passionate, dull, imperfect, and but ordinarie Catholickes, though in truth they exceed and excell theirs in the perfor∣mance of any Christian dutie, excepting this onely, that they are guided by the priests, and haue not re∣signed themselues and all they haue to the wils and directions of the Iesuits. And this foolish difference and friuolous distinction to be betweene the Iesuits and their dependents, and the seminarie priests with their Catholicke people, is not obscurely insinuated, if it be not the principall scope aimed at in the Trea∣tise of Three fairwels, written by a cheefe fauourite of Iesuits, but not without their priuitie, their peru∣sing, and their consent in publishing it abroad; for otherwise the Gentleman followed little of that re∣signation and perfection hee talked so much on in that book, where he will haue a man in all things de∣pend of the Iesuits, and to bee guided by them. As then no doubt he was himselfe in most absolute sort, both in making and diuulging that gallant Treatise. But now that some of ours vsually resort to the Bi∣shop of London, and haue secret conference with him, I know not how farre the religious charitie and perfection of a Iesuit, occupied in the custodie of Euangelicall counsels, will aduenture to suspect, judge, or report thereof; sure I am they should not haue proceeded thus farre as they haue done alrea∣die, if they had obserued the rules and limits but of ordinarie precepts and Christian charitie. VVe will not speake now of such priests as haue beene most officious for the Iesuits and Archpriest, in furthering their hard attempts against vs, and yet are knowne to come to the Bishop of Londons house, no lesse than these of ours which they so rattle with infamies. Let vs deale onely with these two of ours, M. Bluet

and M. Clarke, vpon which the slaunders cheefely run. Haue they not both been knowne for vertuous and good Catholicke priests, the one hauing endu∣red a longer imprisonment for defence of Christs faith, than any Iesuit hath spent yeares in England, yea, before any of that order entered the realme? Hath he not waxen old vnder that heauie yoke, pre∣ferring the ignominie and affliction of Christs crosse, aboue the glorie and pleasures of the world? Hath hee not liued with great credit and honour among both Catholickes and Heretickes, which he purcha∣sed by his Catholick zeale in defence of Gods cause, and by his sincere, discreet, and vertuous comport∣ment in his conuersation? Hath hee now perhaps re∣uolted from his faith, or professed himselfe an enemy, or that in any the least degree, he will bee rebellious or disobedient to the See Apostolicke? Doth he not still lie in prison for his Catholicke religion? Or can they say perhaps that he wanteth abilitie, and the ta∣lents of wit or learning, by reason whereof hee may be thought incapable of promotion, or so insuffici∣ent to vndertake roumes of dignitie and liuings a∣mong heretickes, that being fallen from his faith, or become a traitor to Gods cause, or what else soeuer the slaunderer will haue him. For those defects of his they judge him unfit for preferments, and woorthie no better than this little libertie hee hath in prison? Meaner men than M. Bluet or M. Clarke if they fall to the protestants, are friendly entreated, are set at li∣bertie, and preferred to benefices in their ministerie, as is manifest in Dawson, Maior, Bell, Tedder, and the rest; what ill hap then haue these two to lie still in prison, and misse all aduauncement? For M. Clarke also, it is well knowne how he hath long and zealously trauel∣led for the sauing of soules, with no lesse paines and fruit than the Iesuits about him. Hee hath made a

more glorious profession of his faith, and sustained harder triall by affliction than many of them. Is he deuoid also of all sufficiencie and good talents, that if he be gone from God, and all goodnesse, hee can∣not yet (if he would) step out of prison to some fat∣ter benefice among the ministers? They that value their owne actions, how slender and trifling soeuer they be, aboue all that their fellowes doe, are very easily caried away, what by peeuish emulation, what by selfe-liking, into rash judgements and disgracefull reports, to misconstrue the words and deeds of them they fancie not; to interprete all sinisterly; and to take and censure all they see or heare in the worst part they can deuise: affirming against both the ma∣nifest rule of charitie, and the expresse commaunde∣ment of God, forbidding all rash and temerarious judgements in these words:* 1.6 Nolite iudicare & non in∣dicabimini, nolite condemnare & non condemnabimini, affir∣ming vncertaine things, I say, for certaine; or taking vpon thē to judge anothers seruant, when that office belongeth not to them. Domino enim suo stat, aut cadit;* 1.7 or (if it concerne them) judging secret things for ma∣nifest euils: or finally (if they bee manifest) persecu∣ting them, as to be done badly, without knowledge of mind, intention, and disposition of him that did them. A good conceit or opinion, by the law of Na∣ture is due to euery man; and this ought all Christians to carry in the secrecie of their owne hearts, each one towards other, vntill by some manifest and certaine fault one haue deserued the contrarie. By the same law also, a mans credit, honor, and good name should rest entire and safe without losse or detriment, vntill by some inexcusable bad fact or fault, or by some as∣suredly knowne crime, they be impeached: no lesse than this, was due vnto our Catholicke priests in pri∣son, to M. Bluet, to M. Clarke, to M. Doctor Bag. whom

more than any, these religious fathers with the Arch∣priest and their complices, haue disgraced with slaun∣ders, and to all the rest of vs in durance, or abroad. It was due vnto them (I say) from all sorts of Catholick people, from all priests, from the Archpriest, from the Iesuits: neuerthelesse they haue bereaued vs of this treasure and due. By what crimes manifest and cer∣taine haue wee lost our right herein? How can they defend themselues from cruell & injust rapine? VVe were schismatickes say they: we denie it; and say it is no more but their own damnable calumnie & slaun∣derous fiction. VVe were rebellious and disobedient to the See Apostolicke: we denie it; and say this to be an vndeserued infamie, we neuer hauing the least intention or thought (without which these horrible crimes cannot be committed) to seperate our selues from the See Apostolicke, or to disobey in any thing Clement the eight: or any superiour certainly knowne to be constituted by him ouer vs, so farre forth as his authoritie might appeare to be extended. And for this point, our innocencie is so cleare, that the Iesuits and Archp. with all their adherents, shall neuer be able either by wit, or learning, or honest dealing, to proue vs guiltie of these crimes, or to defend them∣selues from the foule note of vncharitable contume∣lious slaunder. VVere we knowne to be men of that bad life, euill demeanure, and corrupt conscience, (for it could not be imputed to our ignorance) that without good reason, and all probabilitie of suffici∣ent cause, we were likely to forbeare the acceptance of the new authoritie till the comming of the Breue, & wittingly to cast our selues into a damnable state? If our former labours and conuersations had deser∣ued this conceit, our aduersaries might haue had some pretence to justifie their doings, and perhaps saued themselues from the ignominie of detractors

and calumniators. But if not, as I hope the world will testifie for vs, then surely they should haue takē ano∣ther course, contrarie to this they tooke, as well for sauing themselues from greeuous sinnes, as for pre∣seruing vs from these horrible infamies, into which they haue cast both themselues and vs, by their hea∣die and rash judgements. For truly, if any one reason of ours, or all together, be found a sufficient cause of our delay, a heape of sinnes & infamies will redound vpon their owne heads, and we shall be freed. And now touching M. Bluet, M. Clarke, and others of ours, that are said to haue accesse and conference dayly with the Bishop of London, or some other of the Counsel. Haue their former cōuersation in the world, and their long sufferings, cast that euill sent? or doe they yeeld such certaine proofes of a gracelesse dis∣position, that this fact of theirs can deserue no de∣fence nor excuse? or is it so manifestly ill in it selfe, that it will admit no cause as reasonable to salue it? or is there no meane nor way, whereby their fact (indifferent doubtlesse in it owne nature) may be, if not altogether justified and defended, yet at the least excused, or left vnjudged, to be alreadie of the vi∣lest qualitie, and they accordingly demeaned? Aun∣swere for the Iesuits. Is it a manifest and an vndoub∣ted sinne, that a Catholick priest and prisoner haunt an aduersaries house, and haue conference with him?

Gent.

Now truly, I am persuaded it is not, for I haue read of many good Saints that haue haunted the companie of euill persons with great zeale and merit, and our Sauiour Christ himselfe and his Apo∣stles vsed the company of scribes, pharisies, publicans, and the worst sinners.

Priest.

If this be indifferent, and may be done with merite, what can make it a sinfull action in M. Bluet and M. Clarke?

Gent.

Their intention and businesse onely, or per∣haps the scandale they giue thereby.

Priest.

For the scandale, in respect of all the lear∣ned Catholicks of England, the Priests and religious men especially it is Scandalum acceptum, and not datum. For they knowing it to be an indifferent action of it owne kind, and to be justifiable and made good by many circumstances, if they take scandale, before they see some ill effect to be intended, or necessarily to issue thereupon; it must be onely Scandalum accep∣tum. And for the simpler sort of Catholickes, they al∣so with their leaders are bound in conscience to sus∣pect or judge no ill, of the indifferent actions of their Catholicke fathers and prisoners, vntill some sinfull intention or effect appeare. And in this case much more ought the constancie of these Catholick priests imprisoned, as long as they perseuer constant, to stay at the least all good Christians from temerarious or rash judgements (which is euer a greeuous sinne) and in this case is greatly encreased by the state and dig∣nitie of these men, and by their former good deserts and sufferings; than they should be moued by their accesse and conference onely, to suspect or judge the worst, or to vtter any thing derogatorie to their good names. The Iesuits and Priests which are willing to set this scandale on foot, and labour what lieth in them, to make our priests actions seeme hainous and horrible, and neuer cease to persuade the people to judge the worst, and to exclaime against them; these Iesuits and Priests haue the more sinne, and as they be the authours and continuers of the scandale, so haue they to answere for the sinnes of their disciples.

Gent.

By my faith it is daungerous to be too for∣ward in imitating the Iesuits zeale in this point, and great safetie it is to suspend ones judgement, and to temper ones tongue till more be knowne.

Pr.

I thinke that the securest way: for as S. Iames (fourth) sayth: Qui detrahit fratri, aut qui iudicat fra∣trem suum, detrahit legi, & iudicat legem. Si autem iudicas le∣gem, non es factor legis sed Iudex. He that detracteth his brother, or judgeth his brother, detracteth the law, and judgeth the law; but if thou judge the law, thou art not the obseruer of the law, but the judge. A Pha∣risaicall vice it is, rashly to judge and condemn other men; and I wish the Iesuits, the Archpriest with their complices in slaundering vs, were free from all note and contagion of this turpitude. But if we throughly examine the causes which wee haue giuen them on our part, and with indifferencie weigh the nature of these actions & their circumstances in euery respect, whereupon the Iesuits and their adherents haue jud∣ged and defamed vs of most horrible crimes, we shall easily perceiue thē to haue transgressed the bounds of all Christian charitie. A religious man is bound to tend and aime at Euangelicall perfection. This consi∣steth not in the name of an order, nor in the three es∣sentiall vowes of pouertie, chastitie, and obedience, to a Superiour: For hereby onely the principall lets and impediments which may hinder their attaining to perfection, are remoued. But perfection indeed,* 1.8 which by their profession they are bound to endeuor vnto, dooth consist in a full mortification of them∣selues in all respects, and in a perfect charity towards God and man. Now I demaund of the Iesuits, what degree of charitie they haue shewed and exercised in this controuersie? was euer any bad companions so dissolute and impudent, and desperate railers so void of conscience and charitie, which vpon so slender causes and grounds, (first of our delay to receiue the authoritie, and now of hauing conference with the Bishop of London or others of the Counsell) could euer haue run a more intemperate, headie, and vn∣charitable

course of rash suspition and judgement, to the ouerthrow of our good names, than the Iesuits haue done? Could they more haue exceeded the li∣mits of grace, of temperance, of modestie, of huma∣nitie, than the religious Fathers haue? VVho in mat∣ters belonging onely to the supreame Pastor to de∣cide, haue taken vpon them to determine the cause: who with their own particular fantasie haue preuen∣ted the sentence and judgement of the See Aposto∣licke? and who finally vpon a priuat opinion of their owne (thought yet erronious by men, not their infe∣riors for learning, judgement, sinceritie, and other vertues) haue earnestly laboured for euer to disgrace and vtterly defame so many Catholick priests? Could any lost or forlorne caitife haue made more vile and detestable inferences, or gathered more loathsome poyson, or raised a more pestiferous stinch, by stirring in these matters, and freely spending their mouths in condemning and defaming priests for their confe∣rences with the Counsell and Bishop, than these reli∣gious men haue done and their disciples by their ex∣ample and onsetting? VVhat then auaileth a name and boast of religious perfection, when in obseruing this ordinarie precept of not judging or not con∣demning rashly, they are so farre short of matching the most of our imperfect priests, that they haue scarsely gotten one step before the baddest Christi∣ans? Could not their charitie find any one cause or reason for excuse of M. Bluet and M. Clarkes indiffe∣rent action, till some worse effect appeared? VVas it needfull for their charitie, to preuent their ill doing which perhaps will neuer fall out with most reproch∣full slaunders. Infamies in the conceits of humble and charitable men, come timely ynough vpon Ca∣tholicke priests after they haue certainely done the fault, and in no wise ought to be cast vpon them be∣fore

the crime bee committed. It is no hainous tres∣passe in these extremities and wants of necessary re∣leefe in prison, which by the Iesuits and the Archpr. their meanes, is vncharitably brought vpon them, to sollicite the Counsell or Bishop for more enlarge∣ment, or for continuance of the libertie they haue alreadie, or to procure the like to their afflicted bre∣thren. If in this onely they haue found a little fauor, why then might not a Iesuits charitie haue preten∣ded or imagined this to bee the cause of their going and conference? Again, it is no crime to sue for their owne and their brethrens banishment: if thē in these great and most grieuous miseries inflicted vpon them by the Iesuits and Arch-priest, as slaunders, penurie, losse of faculties, suspensions, and the like vndeser∣ued cruelties, aboue the common persecution by their aduersaries in faith, they seeke for their owne deliuerance by banishment: might not the religious Iesuits and Archp. by this reason justifie, or at least excuse their going to the Bishop? YVhat if their in∣tentions be to worke some good of these magistrats, either for their conuersion, or to make them more fa∣uourable to afflicted Catholickes, and better concei∣ted of Catholicke courses, yea, or to procure some tolleration or other good to our church? All these be lawfull ends, and might be more easily and with lesse daunger of sinne supposed by charitable men to bee their businesse, till some worse matter appeared, than the baddest disposition and affair that emulous heads can deuise. These and many moe causes of their con∣ferences and accesse may bee without much labour thought vpon; all, or any one of which might be suf∣ficient ynough to induce a timerous conscience to deeme the best, or at least, to stay it from the downe∣fall of rash suspition, judgement, and defamation. And to tell what I thinke, I should not marueile any

whit, if her Majestie and her Counsell should doe M. Bluet, M. Doctor Bag. M. Clarke, and many of our seminarie priests, more singular fauours and good turnes than these they haue done, or they doe to the Iesuits; considering they know we hope in the end, our priests simply to deale in matters of religion on∣ly, and no whit to entermeddle in state affaires, nor to concurre with Fa. Parsons and his associates in their plotting about titles, successors, inuasions, and dispo∣sing of the crowne and realme either in her Majesties time, or after her decease. An odious and vnfit occu∣pation for religious men, which by profession should haue left the world.

Gent.

Left the world? Nay Gods pitie, I feare me rather that Saint Barnard toucheth them not a little, when speaking of religious men, hee sayth: Itane mundum sibi, & semundo crucifixerunt, vt qui antea vix in suo vico aut oppido cogniti suerāt, modo circumeuntes provincias & curias frequentantes regum noticias, principumque famili∣aritates assecuti sunt. Haue they so crucified the world to themselues, & themselues to the world, that they which before were knowne scarsely in their owne street or towne, now wandering about prouinces, haunting courts, they haue gotten the acquaintance of kings, and the familiaritie of princes. And againe, Video post spretam seculi pompam nonnullos in schola humilita∣tis superbiam magis addiscere, ac sub alis mitis, humilisque ma∣gistri grauius insolescere, & impatientes amplius fieri in clau∣stro, quam fuissent in seculo: quodque magis peruersum est, ple∣rumque in domo Dei non patiuntur habere contemptui, qui in sua non nisi contemptibiles esse potuerunt. I see some after they haue despised the pompe of the world, to learne rather pride in the schoole of humilitie, and vnder the wings of a mild and humble master to wax more proud, and to become more impatient in the cloister, than they had been in the world: and which is most

peruerse of all, for the most part they disdaine to bee had in contempt in Gods house, which in their owne estates could not be but contemptible.

If this concerne them, let them looke to it, and if it doe, he telleth them from whence their euill sprin∣geth, saying: Nec aliunde haec omnia mala contingunt, nisi quod illam, qua seculum deseruerunt, descrentes humilitatem, dum per hoc cognitur inepta denuo sectari studia secularium, canes efficiuntur reuertentes ad vomitum. Neither proceed these euils from any other, but that forsaking that humility wherwith they left the world, whiles hereby they are enforced to follow again the vnfit studies of secular persons, they become dogs, returning againe to their vomit.

Pr.

For these sayings of S. Barnard, how it tou∣cheth the Iesuits I will not trouble my selfe, but as I said, our not intermedling in matters of Estate may be a very great motiue to her Maiestie, & her Coun∣sell, why they should do vs moe pleasures, and shew vs greater fauours than the Iesuits, and such as runne their courses: which cause being no fault in vs, but a laudable thing and conformable to our function, if we should reape fauours therfore, they ought not in conscience to be turned to our reproch and infamie, as though we were fauoured by them for some lewde demeanour; and the Iesuits ought to blame them∣selues, if for their dangerous tampering in things which belong them not, they should finde some ex∣traordinarie affliction, or not the like fauours that three or foure semenarie Priests haue done.

Gent.

Indeed there is no reason to the contrarie, the jelousie of our magistrates, and the State of our Countrey considered.

Pr.

But now what benefits and fauours be these, which any of ours receiue so extraordinarily aboue the Iesuits, and their adherents?

Gent.

The report flyeth, That besides this libertie and fauour which M. Bluet, and M. Clarke find, that you all are maintained by the Lords of the Counsell, that you want nothing, and therefore are not to haue al∣lowance, or a part out of any common almes, or mo∣ney giuen for reliefe of poore Catholike Priests, and prisoners?

Pr.

VVhat thinke you of this report?

Gent.

I thinke it very false.

Pr.

I assure you vpon my soule it is so, yet is not this fiction contriued simply to discredit vs, but fra∣med also for a quarrell & colourable pretence, where∣by our aduersaries may seeme as it were vpon just occasion to depriue vs of our portion in all charitable gifts. And so by debarring vs of necessarie releefe, this way they may effect that which Fa. Parsons wri∣teth in a letter of his, and his associates in England earnestly labour to bring vs vnto, that is, By pouerty and extreame want of necessaries, to enforce vs to yeeld in all things to their wils. The two prickes they shoot at, is their own credit or aduauncement aboue the whole cleargie of England, and that they may haue the commaund and managing of the purse and all. To effect these, it is necessarie, all that stand in their way, or may seeme to looke into or mislike their doings, be brought low and disabled with discredit & pouertie. See you not how they (hauing the Archp. and the assistants at their becke, to doe against the priests whatsoeuer they will set them on) vse his au∣thority to afflict and injurie vs as they list? Haue they left any thing vndone by vntrue slanders and calum∣nies of schism, rebelliō, enormious disobedience, &c. to defame vs all ouer the Christian world, and to dis∣credit vs for euer. Our credits gone, and our good names taken thus vnjustly from vs, what remained safe to preserue vs from vtter vndoing? VVas there

any thing left vs to liue vpon, but only the vse of our faculties, and our ministerie at Gods altar? By these two wee were releeued in our wants, and wee were harboured among good people.

Behold now and admire the rare perfection and charitie of these men, when they had most wrong∣fully defamed vs, that this wound might remaine vn∣cureable, and this dammage might rest vnrecouera∣ble, vnlesse we should aduenture the losse of our liues therefore, they haue taken from vs our faculties also, and suspended vs, the onely meanes wherewith wee liued. And for what crimes did they this? for peace∣ably defending our good names; for desiring that the controuersie might bee referred to the hearing and judgement of the See Apostolicke; for appealing to his Ho. without the Archp. his license. They threa∣ten vs all most disgracefully, vnlesse wee recall our names from the appeale. Some they haue thrust from their places, where they had harbour and main∣tenance, to shift at randon in the world; prohibiting their Catholicke benefactors and ghostly children to haue any dealing with them: as Fa. Holtby the Iesuit, and M. Singleton the assistant haue done with M. Ste∣uenson; the Archpriest and Iesuits with M. Drurie, &c. Others they endeauour in what they can to displace, as the Archp. hath done against M. Neadam, M. Col∣lington, M. Mush, &c. who also with like charitie haue withdrawne and auerted all releefe (to speak of) from all the priests in prisons, which stand against them. And that with more pretence of reason they may debarre vs of maintenance, they giue out, That di∣uerse of vs gaue great store of money, and hoords of treasure, which may sufficiently releeue the rest. Fi∣nally, that the infamie may runne more smoothly among Catholickes, and our pouertie be lesse pitied by charitable people; rumors are spread euerywhere,

that forsooth twelue of vs were at once in confe∣rence with a cheefe Counsellor, who after their de∣parture, exclaimed against them, saying, That they were the most impudent men that euer hee had seene, for they would boldly teach and direct him what hee was to doe. And againe, aunswe∣red it with a vehement oath (say they) that these priests would begger him, for hee had giuen them alreadie fiue hundred pound, and yet they would haue more.

Gent.

I remember, that two yeares agoe I saw a letter of Father Parsons, sent by him from Rome into England, wherein hee signified, That the Pope and Cardinals were informed of Master Doctor Bag∣sha, that hee was singularly fauoured and entreated by the Queene and Counsell, and that hee had a yearely pension or annuitie of them: which it was not likely they would graunt to any, without do∣ing them some peece of seruice, answerable to their desires.

Pr.

I also had a sight of the letter, wherin the good man was much injuried diuerse waies by slaunderous reports. But this same letter bewraied Fa. Parsons sto∣macke to bee ouerloaden with gaule and bitternesse against the Doctor; who notwithstanding all their improbable and vncharitable slaunders, hath carried himselfe with that constancie and good zeale, as well vpon the racke, where he was seuerely dealt with, as also in prisons these many yeares, that the malignitie of his aduersaries will euer turne to their own shame, and make to him a brighter crowne of glorie and re∣nowne. It is well knowne, that the Iesuits haue and doe mightily stomacke him: who then are likely to be these informers to the Pope and Cardinals? not Fa. Parsons (forsooth) and his Iesuits, they are Saint-like men, and running to perfection, they haue no

leisure nor lust to revenge reddere malum pro malo, they be vntrue surmises, wrongfully conceiued experi∣ments, and fantasticall feelings, that Fa. Parsons and the Iesuits be implacable men, when they take auer∣sions, that they seeke revenge, that they persecute their aduersaries, giue maledictum pro maledicto, or bee impatient when they are contradicted. Such as haue had bickering with them in any matter, can best wit∣nesse what themselues haue found. If they bee such perfect patient and mild spirited men, it were sinne to suspect so foule a crime of them, as this is. But if their aduersaries haue alwaies found them to vse as sharpe teeth, and as hurtfull tongues, to the renting asunder their good names, and wounding them o∣therwise (yet all in secret manner) as any other men, they haue had occasions to deale with; the cōjecture will not be much wide, if they repute them to be in∣formers of these slanderous reports in Rome against their conceiued enemie Doctor Bag. And this judge∣ment is more freer from all daunger of temeritie, the more assuredly we haue knowne and seene these reli∣gious Fathers to imploy themselues very feruently to defame vs here at home without any just cause giuen them on our part.

Gent.

These proceedings of theirs seeme strange to me, and make me quake through feare: for I cannot see how they can be defended.

Pr.

Nor I neither in troth, except perhaps they will salue all by their common medicine, and the end of all they doe; that is, propter maiorem Dei gloriam, and so they cannot doe amisse, as long as they intend and referre all to this.

Gent.

Ad maioram Dei gloriam?

Pr.

Yea, and is not this an end or an intention of highest merit?

Gent.

I graunt it is. For not onely the intentions

and end of mens actions must be good, but also the meanes vsed to it. For as Christs Apostle sayth: Non est faciendum malum, vt inde veniat bonum. But I cannot perceiue how disgracing and defaming Catholicke Priests can be drawne by the Iesuits to be a meane ad maiorem Dei gloriam.

Priest.

You know nothing. Is it not ad maiorem dei gloriam, that religious men which haue forsaken the world and all preferments for gaining of souls, should be aduaunced in estimation and credit before secu∣lar priests, which are entangled in worldly affairs, and by reason of their combersome estate, cannot attaine to the perfection of vertue, nor worke so great good among Christian soules as the religious?

Gent.

This seemeth to be no better than an absurd paradox. For it is fittest in my opinion, that greatest respect and reputation be made of the secular priests and pastors, which haue charge ouer soules, & which by their state and vocation are bound not onely to instruct well their people by Catholicke and whole∣some doctrine, but more ouer by their vertuous life and conuersation to giue their people exteriour ex∣amples of well doing. A Iesuit, or any religious man, after he hath preached his sermon, after he hath cate∣chised the people, or heard confessions, or red his le∣cture, or ministered any Sacrament, &c. is not by his profession bound to remaine still among the people, and himselfe to practise in open shew what hee had taught, and to be readie at all occasions to helpe and counsell his auditors: but hee may and is by his state tied to retire himselfe into his cloister or colledge, where he may be thus, or so; good, or bad, as hee is disposed: if good, to little edification in the world; if bad, to small scandale, because hee is hid and shut vp from the eyes of the people. Hee is not to looke or hunt for credit, it is ynough for him to be a religious

man, to obserue the rules and discipline of his order, to preach good doctrine, and sufficiently to minister the Sacraments he taketh in hand. But a pastor, be∣sides his diligent endeuours in teaching and dispen∣sing of the mysteries of God, must also at all times and in all occasions, by his vertuous carriage giue a light vnto his flocke, what they are to do and imitate, or else he faileth in the performance of his dutie. And again, vnlesse he haue good credit, and be well estee∣med among his people, neither his doctrine nor ex∣ample shall much profit; men being naturally encli∣ned rather to imitate & frame themselues to a mea∣ner person, of whom they carry an high conceit, than to a better, whom yet they value not so much. And surely in my fantasie the church is happie, and that people cannot but doe well, where the Pastours and Prelates teaching and liuing well, are best beloued, honoured, and esteemed of aboue all others. Religi∣ous men are good condjutors, and deserue praise, ho∣nour, and loue, if they tender the Pastours credit a∣mong the people more than their own; if they draw the people more to reuerence & obey their Priests; and if they endeuour to make a strict bond of loue, honour, and vnion, between the sheepe and their or∣dinarie sheepeheards. But if once they hunt after a singular name and credit, and within another mans fould, and aspire to an estimation aboue the Pastour, this breedeth dislike, deuision, and contempt of the people towards their Prelate, and it cannot bee but culpable before God and man, as peruerting al good order in the gouernement of Gods church, and rob∣bing secular Pastors of their due. The religious at no time more deseruedly win credit to themselues, than when they seeke the honour and credite of secular Priests which haue charge of soules, and with humi∣litie of heart flie temporall estimation, and desire to

be reputed abject or inferiors to all.

Pr.

You say well, but now in England the case stan∣deth not so, for the secular priests be no pastours, nor haue more charge of souls than the Iesuits, and ther∣fore your reason holdeth not.

Gent.

I know it is in England, as you haue said; Ie∣suits and Priests haue like charge; but yet, if euer our countrey be reclaimed to the Catholicke faith, and vnited againe to the church of God, they bee secular priests, and not Iesuits, which must be Pastours, and haue the charge of soules: which happie chaunge, whether it will come in our dayes, or no, none know∣eth but God. But come when it shall, it is now before it come most expedient and necessarie for that day, that secular priests which must haue the charge when it commeth, be not vndescruedly bereaued of their credits and good names, but bee esteemed equally with the Iesuits, in respect of the charge and toiles they vndertake for sauing of soules, not inferiour any way in mans eye, as now the game goeth, to the cha∣ritie and trauels of these religious men.

Pr.

VVell, for this point I will not stand with you, let your reasons haue what weight they shall, I will not discusse them, because we haue digressed too far. Let vs suppose this principle of theirs to be true, That it is ad maiorem Dei gloriam, that their religions haue credit aboue ordinarie Pastors, and Priests may not they then seeke to haue it?

Gent.

Vpon that supposition perhaps there will follow no lesse, but I can neuer yeeld to that sup∣position.

Pr.

Let not the supposition trouble you for this time.

Gent.

It shall passe then. But what then?

Pr.

Marry, what if these religious men should haue a conceit not onely that some secular priests of good fame and credit be their aduersaries; but moreouer,

that it were good by some odde deuise to pull them down, and to disgrace them; which things being cun∣ningly brought to passe, all would redound to the credit of their societie, and thus all would goe round with them: might they not hereupon disgrace and defame them too vpon any small shew of offence?

Gent.

In my conceit, no. Good men often fall at variance and dissention, and to discredit or defame ones aduersarie vnjustly, without obseruing the or∣der of justice, charitie, and conscience, can neuer be taken as a lawfull or as a good meanes to worke a mans owne credit, or the greater glorie of God, as I said in the beginning.

Priest.

If this be so, then let the Iesuits looke to it, what meanes they vse and accomodat to this end of their actions proclaimed euery where, ad maiorem Dei gloriam. For me, I want wit to see how they can applie these disgraces and slaunders, wherewith they haue oppressed vs, to the greater glorie of the true God, though perhaps for a while this odde manner of pro∣ceeding may seem to further their desired credit and aduauncement. But now to the slaunder, it is so ma∣nifest an vntruth, that I am persuaded surely the re∣porters themselues know it so to be, & this the more, if they impose it vpon vs all. For they cannot be ig∣norant, how that diuers of vs, who now they perse∣cute, neuer had to do with the Counsel or magistrat, or receiued other benefit from them than persecuti∣on. If they will charge any particular man that re∣ceiueth the fained maintenance, let them name him, that the rest may bee freed, and not depriued of Ca∣tholicke almes for another mans fault; if perhaps these good religious Fathers judge it a fault, for any of vs in these extreame wants of releefe, brought vpon vs by their vncharitable dealings, to receiue almes at the hands of our aduersaries in Faith, when

we are denied it of Catholickes,

Gent.

They name M. Doctor Bag. and the report runneth generally of you all.

Pr.

For vs all it is needlesse to say more: now for Doctor Bagsha, of whom by likelyhood Father Parsons had informed the Pope and Cardinals to haue year∣ly anuitie of the Queene; it is no better than a mali∣cious calumnie, purposely deuised and cast abroad to make the good man odious to all honest minds. In the tower indeed, while he was prisoner for his Faith, hee had the Queenes ordinarie allowance graunted before to Fa. Campion, Fa. Hawood, after to Father Iohn Gerrard, Iesuits, and denied to no poore prisoner there. In the gate-house also, in his last troubles which were procured to him (as many probably affirme, by some busie plotting Iesuits beyond, when they tampered with Squire about doing violence to her Majesties person) he had the Queenes allowance during his a∣bode there (as they say:) and it may perhaps bee, that finding him guiltlesse of all those treasonable practi∣ses, the Counsell bestowed some thing on him to∣wards his charges in that trouble, or surely it had ben a deed of charitie to haue been done so. But what is all this to Fa. Parsons information of an anuitie, or to the report that now flieth currant against him and all the rest, of being maintained by the Counsell?

Gent.

Nothing at all.

Priest.

It is a worlds wonder therefore to behold how forward, and how eagre these religious men be, to make all our friends and benefactours to forsake vs, both for entertainment and reliefe. And besides these reports, all vntrue as you see, they vse another prettie meane to withdraw our Catholike friends, from vs.

Gent.

VVhat may this be I pray you?

Pr.

Mary, when no other deuise will serue to work

this feat, the religious Fathers turne themselues to terrifie our friends and benefactors, from releeuing vs, by dreadfull threats; as, that whosoeuer standeth with vs in these controuersies against them, shall haue all confiscated before the twelue moneths end, and be left not worth a groat.

Gent.

Belike they haue laid their plot, and thinke it sure, to haue their desired effect.

Priest.

I know not what, nor how they haue plot∣ted, but this bugge flyeth all ouer.

Gent.

How know you that it proceedtth from the Iesuits?

Pr.

I doubt not but the originall is from them, because their intierest friends & adherents prattle it euery where. Againe, it hath beene long the fashion of the religious Fathers to put men into great expe∣ctation of fauour and aduancement when their day shall come, and to ring euery yeare fresh larums of forraine preparations, and I know not what; that by these vaine hopes, and hurtfull bables, they may re∣taine their old friends and win new, and withall driue fearefull conceits into the minds of all such as run not their courses.

Gent.

Truly I thinke this to be so; and my selfe haue heard some priests familiar with them, which yet ex∣ceedingly misliked their doings & busie tampering, say, These Iesuits looke one day to haue the dealing of all Bishoprickes and Ecclesiasticall liuings, vnlesse we flatter them and feed their humors, wee shall get nothing.

Pr.

These were base-minded priests.

Gent.

They be so indeed, yet they are highly estee∣med of by the Iesuits, for seeming forward men for them.

Pr.

I abhorre such collouging. But to put you out of doubt whence these threats haue their origine, I as∣sure

you it was a famous father of the Iesuits, that in plaine words said to a gentlewoman of good calling, which charitably respected the disgraced priests, and was resolued to stand indifferent to all, vntill the controuersie were decided by the Church: Now (said he) is the time of triall, they that are not with vs, are against vs (the good man would haue had her neither to releeue nor harbour any of vs, but to shun vs all, as rebellious schismatickes) if you forsake them not now, you will ouerthrow your selfe and all your po∣steritie for euer. This he said to affright the charita∣ble gentlewoman, as though the state of her posteri∣tie should be vtterly ouerthrowne, vnlesse she adhe∣red to the Iesuits (for who must not stand at their de∣uotion, when all commeth to their sharing) and doe bad offices against vs priests, her knowne Catholicke and sincere friends. VVhat more? was it not another Iesuit with his assistant, which caused a Gentleman either to promise or to sweare, that hee should stand fast vnto them, and informe whatsoeuer hee saw or heard by priests and others, done against them and the Archp. his proceedings? They made the lay gen∣tleman their spie, (as they haue euery where many such, as well lay men, as women & priests) vpon pro∣mise on their side againe to him, that he should bee restored to all his lands forfeited by his auncestors in a commotion by an attainder, when the world should fall on their side. The silly Gentleman mooued with this hope, vndertooke the disgracefull office, and said to his friends that he had wrought a very good daies worke when he entred this couenant: yet comming among his old acquaintance, he would now and then reueale the secret, and forewarne them to speake no∣thing which they were not willing to haue carried further: for he had vndertaken and promised to in∣forme what he heard.

Gent.

This was a very bad office for a Gentleman, surely he was some foole.

Pr.

Nay, no foole for want of wit; but in truth the polliticke practises and the cunning deuises vsed by Iesuits in our nation these late yeares, haue not only much impeached the due estimation, honour, and re∣uerent respect which the laitie carried towards Ca∣tholicke priests before they entered among vs, and some while after; but it hath more ouer exceedingly decaied the naturall sincere condition of our people; and there the most, where these fathers haue had most conuersation and dealing: many of modest and temperat constitution are become imperious, brasen faced, and furious men against priests; they that were lowly and humble, peremptorie, rash in their judge∣ments and disdainefull; the simple and sincere, are growne to bee cunning and double dealers, full of equiuocations in their words, & dissembling in their behauior. But to come to the slaunderous report wee haue in hand, what say you? Haue you any more to object for them, or you rest satisfied?

Gent.

I haue no more to say, but am sorie that vpon so slender grounds, the Iesuits, with the Archp. and their adherents, raise vp such slaunderous buildings.

Pr.

VVell then, shal we passe to some other points?

Gent.

VVith a good will.

Priest.

Go to then, what is the next?

The third slaunder.

Gent.

They report that your cause hath been tri∣ed already at Rome, and the two messengers you sent heard, condemned, and punished, & all you in them. So that it is nothing but your contentious spirits that moue you without any cause, to stirre afresh in these matters; for you can neuer be at rest, because you are full of emulation, and you cannot endure to obey

your Archpriest, because you are ambitious and desi∣rous of authoritie your selues.

Pr.

For our disobedience to the Arch-priest, it is refuted before, I need to say no more of that calum∣nie. And touching the other, That we are ambitious, and would haue the authoritie our selues; this is also an improbable deuised slaunder by our aduersaries. How know they that we are ambitious?

Gent.

Mary they say that M. Coll. should haue been Archbishop of Canterburie, and M. Mush Archbishop of Yorke, and the rest of you in like sort sought for other dignities.

Priest.

These truly be no other than malignant fi∣ctions of our aduersaries, which respect not how they do it, so they may detract vs, and make vs more odious among priests and Catholickes in our nation. But this onely reason quite confoundeth them, That none of them is able to charge any of vs in particular with any such attempt, that by word or deed we euer went about our owne preferment. For in all things concerning these matters of procuring bishops, or suffraganes, or other prelates for gouerning our church, after the death of Cardinall Allen, when very scandalous contentions grew betweene the Iesuits and some seminarie priests at VVisbich, our aduersa∣ries cannot say that we went about it secretly, did any thing, or intended to do, but by the general consents and concurrance of all our brethren priests and Iesu∣its, referring all as well for the kind of gouernement, as for the men to be preferred, to the voices, good li∣king, and choise of euery one. And onely wee pro∣pounded to our brethren what we judged fittest, de∣siring euery one to giue their consent and opinion also, that whatsoeuer should bee propounded to his Holinesse, might be as from vs all, or the most. This being true, as our aduersaries cannot denie it to bee,

what a wilfull peruersitie is it in them, to charge vs with ambition? and this the rather, for that they are not ignorant how vnlikely it was, that these whome they most note with this slaunder, should bee chosen to these roomes, if the election should haue passed by free voice & generall consent of our whole clear∣gie. For emulation, it is a friuolous toy; for admit any of vs were of that ambitious humour they report vs to bee, yet is there no such good or pleasure in the Archp. his authoritie, as any of vs should emulate him for it, or desire to haue it from him: neither since the beginning hath his carriage been in that office so commendable for discretion, sinceritie, vpright dea∣ling among his bretheren, moderation, prudence, compassion, and other vertues requisit to bee in a su∣perior, especially in this afflicted state of ours, that he hath giuen any man occasion to enuie his credit, or couet the glorie of his actions. But many he hath stir∣red vp to mislike him and his gouernment, and to la∣ment the wofull state of our Church, mannaged by so vnfit a man. For surely, if I were deuoid of grace, and if I were his mortall enemie, I could not haue wished him to haue gouerned and behaued himselfe in worse sort than he hath done.

Gent.

I haue heard of little good or none, that he hath done since his first enterance into the office: but sure I am, our Church was neuer so harmed by con∣tentions and scandals, as it hath beene in these three yeares of his gouernment.

Priest.

No marueile, when hee is wholly led by the Iesuits, the principall authors and parties in these dis∣sentions. But now concerning, that they say our cause hath been heard alreadie, & judged at Rome against vs, and thereupon our two messengers punished, and we all in them; it is a manifest vntruth, as appeareth by M. Doctor Bishops answere to Fa. Parsons letter, and

by the censure of the same letter, all in print: for by Fa. Parsons wicked & false information our two priests could neuer haue accesse to his Ho.nor audience, but were shortly after their arriuall apprehended as no∣table malefactors, shut vp seuerally in very close pri∣son vnder Fa Par. custodie. Fa. P. was the misinformer to his Ho. Fa. P. was the guide to the officers that ap∣prehended them. Fa. P. was their jaylor, their exami∣ner, the appointer of his brother Iesuit to bee the scribe & notarie. Fa. P. was the framer of libels against them, the procurer & instructer of two English priests his deputies, to preferre his libels against them. Fa. P. was the inuentor, whisperer, and soother of all bad matters, which might bring them in hatred: the dis∣poser of the time and maner of their audience before two Cardinals, seuen weekes after their taking, the contriuer and moderator in all those actions, the ran∣sacker of all their writings and stuffe. Fa. P. would ne∣uer permit them to conferre together, nor the one to see the other, till they appeared before the Cardinall. Fa. P. prohibited them to haue a copie of the slaunde∣rous libels, which hee had caused to bee read in the Cardinals presence for their disgrace, or to answer to them. Fa. P. depriued them of all aduise and helpes of learned counsell. Fa. P. shut thē vp again for other se∣uen or eight weekes more, vntil he had procured the Popes Breue for confirmation of the authority, which himselfe had by collusion obtained a yeare before. And after (least they should returne to England, and tell tales of his crueltie and corrupt dealings) Fa. Par. plotted and deuised their miserable banishment, the one into Paris, the other into Mussipont in Lorraine. It was Fa. P. that in Rome laboured to discredit them and all our Cleargie, by carrying about and shewing their linnen sockes, their handkerchifes, their night∣coyfes, very meane in respect of such as himselfe and

his Iesuits haue worne in England, and their silke points of 12. pence the dozen. Fa. P. dismissed one many daies after the other, least trauelling together, they should haue too much comfort and helpe in so long a journey. Fa. P. sent them away without viati∣cum, or any farthing of prouision and allowance to liue vpon, how long soeuer the time of their banish∣ment should last; and yet Fa. P. charitably prouided that they should not for any cause depart from those places, without incurring the greatest censures.

Gent.

This man seemeth to haue a violent, or ra∣ther a cruell spirit.

Priest.

He hath so no doubt, where he is offended, and can execute his will.

Gent.

VVhy did these two Priests goe to Rome.

Priest.

First to know assuredly whether the Archp. authoritie was instituted by his Holinesse; for it was brought without any Apostolicall writ. Againe, to declare vnto his Ho. the difficulties and inconueni∣encies thereof, and the harmes probably like to en∣sue to our whole Church, vnlesse it were altred. A∣gaine, truely to enforme his Ho. of the state of our Church in all things; and lastly, to know his good pleasure what he would haue vs to do, and to bring vs word thereof.

Gent.

These were good causes of going to Rome: if these were all, they deserued neither imprison∣ment, nor banishment, nor in any sort should they haue beene hardly vsed, or denied audience. Surely they had committed some other fault.

Priest.

None at all surely. Fa. Parson feared, least if they should haue had free audience, they would haue detected his cunning dealing with the Pope, in procuring the new authoritie; & with our Church, in imposing it so violently vpon our Cleargie; and haue finally ouerthrowne all his plots laid for oppres∣sing

our priests, & the aduancement of his soietie in England. For this cause hauing Cardinall Caiet. rea∣die to enforme, and effect whatsoeuer hee would mooue him to, he maliciously informed the Pope a∣gainst our priests, shut vp all the wayes of audience, and got them taken, and committed to close prison, before euer they were heard, & at the last banished.

Gent.

They were brought before the Cardinall Caietane, and another Cardinall in the English Col∣ledge, and then heard what they could say.

Pr.

After seuen weekes close imprisonment, they were called before them indeed, their examinations taken by Fa. P. of many impertinent matters, were read, and after there was a shamefull slaunderous li∣bell exhibited against them, and read by M. Haddocke and M. Aray, two English priests, suborned by Fa. P. and readie for whatsoeuer he would bid them doe to serue his turne: which yet our priests could not bee permitted to haue a copie of, nor to aunswere vnto. And for their maine businesse, it was nothing at all to the purpose spoken of.

Gent.

VVhy did not your priests deliuer their bu∣sinesses to the Cardinals at that time?

Priest.

Because they were not called forth for that end, but as malefactors to answere to whatsoeuer Fa. Par. had deuised against them. And they saw neither time nor place fit to deliuer it, where the iniquitie of Fa. P. so much preuailed, and all justice and indiffe∣rencie was abandoned, especially they perceiuing Fa. Parsons (without discontenting Cardinall Caietane by so doing) disposed to deride and make to seeme con∣temptible both the men, and whatsoeuer they said in any thing that crossed his humour. They asked the Cardinall if hee condemned their comming to the See Apostolicke about the affaires of their Church. He said no, it was lawfull. VVhy then are we thus pu∣nished

said they? Not for your comming, but because you haue thereby and by your contentions, scandali∣zed many in England. And in the sentence of the Cardinals, the crimes for which they were banished, are specified to be neither schisme nor rebellion, nor enormious disobedience to the Pope, or Arch-priest: but because they had had contentions in England with men of their owne order, whether justly or in∣justly they had these contentions, it is not declared; that so vntrue a calumnie might goe more currant in those doubtfull speeches, whereas no bad or vnjust dealings of theirs in Englād could be proued against them before those Cardinals, but all matters were shuffled vp, and done just as Fa. P. would haue them.

Gent.

VVhereby it seemeth that this controuersie of yours was neuer at that time discussed or mentio∣ned at all in Rome.

Pr.

They there neuer had it in question or speech whether we were schismaticks, or rebellious, or enor∣miously disobedient, for our bearing off to accept the authoritie, before the comming of the Breue. And therefore you may see by this, what little truth is in the Iesuits words, when they affirme that our cause was heard, and sentence giuen against vs in Rome.

Gent.

VVhy haue they tampered so much in these matters against you?

Pr.

Oh, they be Iesuits, they must be stirring, and the true causes are these: They would not be subor∣dinat in any manner to ordinary prelats in England, as to Bishops, Suffraganes, &c. but beare themselues the greatest sway in the gouernment of our Church, and disposing of all things. To exclude therefore all ordinarie prelates, which were to bee chosen by voi∣ces and common consent of our cleargie, they pre∣uented vs secretly, by getting an Archp. to rule ouer all, except themselues. This authoritie was of their

owne deuising; the man preferred thereto of their own election; in whose gouernment also and actions, they prouided, that themselues should haue a prin∣cipall stroke; that forsooth in euery matter of im∣portance the Archp. should haue the aduise and di∣rection of the head Iesuit in England. Thus their wils should be fulfilled without checke, in all they listed to attempt or desire. Now after they had by false sug∣gestion, by many wayes procured this new authori∣tie, and brought vs all into their bondage, it behoo∣ued them to hold it by violence and strong hand, which they had contriued by such cunning, for their owne particular, without respect of conscience or charitie. The end I told you of admaiorem dei gloriam, which is cheefely by the aduancement of their socie∣tie, salueth all odde dealings.

Gent.

It were more time that wee proceeded to some other matter, for I should vnderstand this more by reading the censure and letter you spoke of.

Pr.

Let vs so doe; what is the next?

The fourth Slaunder.

Gent.

The report is all ouer, That you bee aduersa∣ries or enemies to the Iesuits, which are known to be religious men of singular vertue and perfection, and to whome aboue all men, our nation is most bound; and many things are said of your hard dealing a∣gainst them.

Pr.

I pray you let vs heare all, and I shall satisfie you in euery point as well as I can.

Gent.

I shall speake all, as it commeth to my re∣membrance.

Priest.

Doe so; but for this you haue said, what ground haue they to proue vs their enemies, or in what are wee their enemies, say they? I know some haue said and written, That wee are enemies to

their religious perfection.

Gent.

I also haue heard the same of their dearest fauourites.

Priest.

This is a rash and vncharitable calumnie: For no man can be an enemy to religious perfection, but thereby he falleth from Gods grace. For albeit no man out of vow be bound vnder mortall sinne, to obserue the Euangelicall counsels, yet can no Chri∣stian hate the obseruers of them, or become their enemie for that respect, but hee offendeth mortally thereby. If therefore it be certaine, that we be their enemies, it is no lesse certain, that the cause is not any part of religious perfection to be noted in them: for otherwise should we be enemies also to the religious men of other orders, as to Dominicans, Franciscans, Benedictines, Carthusians, and the rest; in all the which, no man except a Iesuit, will denie as much re∣ligious perfection to bee found, as is among the Iesu∣its; yea, we should be more enemies to all them than to Iesuits, if this were the cause that mooueth vs in this case. For all these haue the essentiall vows of po∣uertie, chastitie, and obedience, as well as Iesuits; and it is to bee supposed, that they obserue them as per∣fectly. Besides, they haue their continuall abstinence, their diuerse Lents, and many extraordinarie fasts, their nightly risings and watchings to sing laudes to God, to meditate and to pray, their great castigati∣ons, and vsuall afflictions of their bodies; by disci∣plines, hard diet,, sharpe attire, and other meanes of mortification. (All which the Iesuits want, more than that now & then like good ordinarie secular priests, they will be doing something, but little to account of in respect of the continued toyles and mortificati∣ons of other holy religions men of all sorts.) Now, if religious perfection were the cause of this fayned hatred or emnitie, we should be most auersed from all

these orders, in which we know these meanes of per∣fections, or perfections most to abound; and most loue and embrace the Iesuits, in whom wee know all these to bee wanting. But neither be we enemies to those holy orders, neither will those holy men impute vnto vs this calumnie, neither can the Iesuits them∣selues be ignorant, that we loue and honour those or∣ders and men for their great vertues and mortificati∣on of life. And therefore this slaunder is intollerable injurie vnto vs all, to make the world beleeue vs so void of grace and godlinesse, that we are enemies to the Iesuits for their vertue and perfection: thus put∣ting vs in the ranke of the vilest miscreants that are, or can be imagined. The truth therefore is, that wee loue and honour the Iesuits order, and should both loue and honour them more, the more they and their order tendeth to perfection, and the lowlier conceit they caried of themselues. And if we be their aduer∣saries, it is for some other cause than their vertues.

Gent.

For what I pray you?

Pr.

No other but the very same, for which the Iesu∣its haue accounted many men of great vertue and calling to be their aduersaries.

Gent.

Father Parsons in his VVardword to Sir Francis Hastings, seemeth to say, that none but badly disposed men, and wretches giuen ouer to wickednesse, are aduersaries to Iesuits. How then can it bee, that good men are their aduersaries, as you say?

Priest.

I say not that good men were their aduer∣saries, but that they accounted many vertuous men their aduersaries. For albeit they reckon euery one to bee their aduersarie that crosseth their doings in any respect; yet in truth a vertuous man in so doing is their friend: and if selfe-liking were abandoned, would be so esteemed by them. They onely, and some such like, as Fa. P. there speaketh of, are their true ad∣uersaries,

which hate and mislike their vertue and well doing, and goe about to hinder this, bee it in a Iesuit, or in any other honest Catholicke man.

Gent.

Such wicked men be aduersaries to all true Christians; but yet Fa. Parsons, with many beyond, and these Iesuits in England, account you, and all your adherents here or abroad, to bee aduersaries to their societie.

Pr.

I graunt they doe. But this is because we con∣tradict and resist the ill actions and proceedings of some particular men of their societie. For they must haue all approued and justified, whatsoeuer any of them doth, otherwise you cannot bee thought their friend. This is a comfort, that we may bee right good men before God and the world, notwithstanding these Fathers account vs their aduersaries, yea, and persecute vs also, as they haue, and doe. For many priests whom they haue sought vehemently to dis∣credit by this report of being their aduersaries, and therefore haue disgraced them in what they could, as well in England, as in our Colledges vnder their gouernment beyond (which almost neuer haue been free from greeuous contentions) are now glorious Martyrs in heauen; which being rejected and per∣secuted by them, yet laboured in Gods vineyard here as painefully and as fruitfully (to say no more) as any Iesuit in the realme: yea, and when it came to the triall of their vertue; their resolution, and their constant charitie, these outcasts the Iesuits aduersa∣ries were alwayes found no lesse patient in torments and prisons, and no lesse courageous in shedding their blood for defence of Christs cause, than any of the Iesuits. This was manifest (to let all the rest of the Martyrs and confessors passe) in the blessed priests, M. Iohn Ingram, M. Thomas Pormort, and M. Lanton, glo∣rious Martyrs, yet reckoned in the number of the Ie∣suits

aduersaries, yea, and not a little afflicted and disgraced by them for the same. VVhat will Fa. P. and the Iesuits say to the most gracious and peere∣lesse jewell of our countrey, Cardinall Allen? Must he for companie also bee raunged and thrust into that predicament of their aduersaries, where Fa. P. affir∣meth to Sir Francis Hastings, that none bee the Iesuits aduersaries, except Heretickes, Apostataes, dissolute men, disobedient malecontents, & the like? It were too too bad impudencie and intollerable mallice to say, that hee was not a right vertuous, a wise, and a gracious man.

Gent.

Yea; but he was not the Iesuits aduersarie.

Pr.

Then they foulely belie him. For I assure you, my selfe haue often heard some Iesuits earnestly af∣firme, that he was their aduersarie, and much auersed from them before his death.

Gent.

I maruell greatly, that any of them hauing wit, will report this: for that must be a great discredit to them, to say, that a man of those graces, which euery way he was knowne to haue, were their aduer∣sarie, and auersed from them; considering all men hearing this, would foorthwith conceiue some euill desert to be in them, by reason whereof hee was be∣come their aduersarie.

Pr.

The reporters were told no lesse; but what is to be expected, where ouer-weening of themselues, blindeth these Saints? Now then Cardinall Allen was their aduersarie by their owne confession; but Car∣dinall Allen was well knowne in Christendome to be a good vertuous man: then it followeth, that good men may be the Iesuits aduersaries: and againe, that in truth it is no discredit for a Catholicke priest to be their aduersarie, to contradict or withstand them in any ill attempt or action of theirs: and lastly, it fol∣loweth, that the Iesuits bee no such Saints, as their

good end of doing all ad maiorem dei gloriam can justifie and make currant all they doe.

Gent.

But what? was Cardinall Allen their aduer∣sarie indeed?

Priest.

I know that hee misliked and condemned many things the Iesuits did, and in this sort hee was their aduersarie, and so be we. For I haue heard him much condemne their gouernement of our colledge in Rome; namely, for their want of frugalitie, and vsing the houses liuing to the most benefit of our na∣tion; for their palpable partialitie to some of the stu∣dents aboue the rest; for their continuall enticing and drawing by an hundred cunning means, our most towardly youths to be of their societie: for keeping such many times as they had allured and woon vnto them, vnder the names of our schollers, till they had ended their courses of studie; by which policie, the Iesuits nouices occupied the roomes prouided for our students, and by them, more were entised to be∣come Iesuits. Againe he condemned their gouerne∣ment, in that for very trifles they would discontent and afflict the students, yea, and vpon light occasions disgrace them, dismisse them before their time, and taking displeasure, indaunger for a toy to breake and ouerthrow men of many good parts and expectati∣on. He was wont to say, that the gouernours of that Colledge, and their fellowes in England, had a grea∣ter respect to their owne interest or benefite in both places, than to the common good of our country.

Gent.

If he had thus mistiked them, why beeing in authoritie, made he not redresse thereof?

Priest.

VVithout peraduenture hee misliked no lesse than I haue told you, but why he reformed not all, I know not certainely. He was of a mild and of a quiet naturall disposition, euer vnwilling to take any rough or seuere course, or to giue the Iesuits so great

disgust, as he must haue done, if he should haue refor∣med what was needful. These mislikes he had of their proceedings both in England and in Rome, made knowne vnto them by sweet and friendly admoniti∣on, caused them to account and report him to bee their aduersarie. VVhat would they haue done (thinke you) if either he had remooued them from the gouernement of the Colledge, or recalled them out of England?

Gent.

During his life, all was well in England, and in that Colledge of Rome also.

Pr.

It was not so euill in either place then, as since his death it hath bene; but yet he perceiued well how in England the Iesuits little tendred the good & credit of our priests, and how that the more they had dea∣ling among the ablest sort of Catholikes, the more decaied the maintenance of our seminarie at Doway or Rhemes, the customary almes not comming from England to it, as before there did when the secular priests had more doing. By reason of which want, that seminarie (the mother of all the rest, and then much better to our nation than all the rest, with it, are at this day) decayed euery yeare more and more in the Cardinals time. And for the Colledge at Rome, it was often in his time also in great tumult and gar∣boile, by reason of the contentions betweene the Ie∣suits and schollers: which euer the gracious Cardi∣nall pacified againe and suppressed, before it gaue scandale abroad, by his quiet, wise, and moderat dea∣ling with both parties. Yet haue I heard him much complaine of the Iesuits headie and vndiscreet go∣uernement, and say their gouernment is naught, and they will neuer amend it, for they will not heare ad∣uise: whilest I liue, I shall keepe all downe, but after I be dead, yee shall see the schollers and them at wo∣full dissentions.

Gent.

It is strange, the Iesuits beeing good men, they should rule so ill.

Priest.

It is not strange, for it is vsuall in all estates, That the best men are not the best rulers. If a man lacke the gifts of prudence, of justice, and discretion, of sinceritie, and of compassion in his actions, be he otherwise neuer so great a Saint, hee shall neuer go∣uerne well. The generall of the Iesuits order that now liueth, was often wont to say to our Cardinall, that hee could haue store of learned and vertuous men, but he found very few good gouernors among his subjects; which is a defect (as I said) common to all orders and sorts of people. Cardinall Allen would say that Fa. Creswell the Iesuit, & once a turbulent Rector in the English Colledge at Rome, was a good man, and fit to be a subject, but the vnfittest to be a superi∣our of any man that euer he had knowne: For (said he) his delight was, to bee afflicting the schollers, and it was all one to bee an orderly or disorderly man vn∣der him; because if they were externally vnruly, he would punish them, and if externally they obserued their rules, he would yet be euer displeased, and vex∣ing them, saying, That in their hearts they were ill disposed, and that they conspired against him to ob∣serue the rules in outward shew onely, to the intent he should not giue them pennances.

Gent.

This was very foolish proceeding in a go∣uernment, & it argued an vndiscreet and busie head.

Priest.

I tell it you as the Cardinall told it me: but let vs goe forward, to shew that they be not alwayes in Fa. Parsons bad predicament, whome the Iesuits ac∣count their aduersaries. VVee haue said of Cardinall Allen. Now let vs come to Cardinall Borromie, the late Arch-bishop of Millaine, famous for his vertue and wisedome throughout all Christendome. The Iesu∣its reckoned him among their aduersaries, for I haue

heard a Iesuit say it.

Gent.

VVhy should that blessed man be thought or reckoned their aduersarie?

Priest.

Not surely for that hee either hated or disli∣ked any vertue in them, but because they saw him to mislike, condemne, and resist their ordinarie disorde∣red proceedings in the gouernement of his semina∣ries. For perceiuing thē euer to be diligently fishing among his schollers, to draw the best and most to∣wardly of them into their societie, whereby in short time his Churches were to lacke sufficient Pastours, and to bee greatly damnified; hee tooke from them the gouernement of his seminaries, and committed them to discreet secular priests. VVhich prudent fact of his, being (as they interpreted it) both to the Iesu∣its some dscredit and detriment, how could they but reckon him their aduersarie? Cardinall Toledo also, who had beene one of their societie from his youth, the first Cardinall of their order, was not hee in like manner reputed their aduersarie, as well before his promotion, as after?

Gent.

I haue heard some Iesuits report hardly of that man, for crossing them in many things, and a∣mongst the rest, in the gouernement of the English Colledge at Rome, when he put thē all from thence, except foure, and reformed the gouernment, to the great comfort and good of our students, as long as that good Cardinall liued. Some also of them repor∣ted disgracefull things of his death.

Pr.

If they conceiue a man to be their aduersarie, he shall be assured to want their good word: but yet notwithstanding the disgracefull reports some here haue made of his death, I haue heard one, in whose armes it is said he gaue vp the ghost, testifie, That he made a vertuous end. The Iesuits will not denie, but that they haue aduersaries in France, yea Catholicks,

which concurred to their expulsion thence, and still resist their bringing in againe. VVhat? will they af∣firme all the French nation, which bee their aduersa∣ries, the King, the Cardinals, the Bishops, the inferior Cleargie, the Diuines, the Vniuersities, the Nobilitie, the Gentrie, and all the people together, to be in Fa. Parsons gracelesse predicament, and to be bad men? If they presume thus farre, who will beleeue them? But before the generall banishments of the Iesuits out of Fraunce, they euer accounted the Vniuersitie of Pa∣ris, and many Prelats and lay men, to haue been their aduersaries or heauie friends, when there was no sus∣pition of joyning against them with an hereticall or an euill prince. VVhat can they say to the Bishops and Pastours in the Low countries, and the Vniuersi∣ties of Doway, whom they reckon to be their aduer∣saries, by reason of the great contentions had be∣tweene them about eight yeares ago? VVhat to the Vniuersities of Louaine, with whome they haue had bickering since? VVhat to the whole order of Do∣minicans (letting passe other religious) betweene whom and them there hath been of long, as is, conti∣nuall bitter strifes in Spaine, as all the world know∣eth? And all these included in Fa. Parsons ougly bead∣roll? If all these be of bad disposition, and gracelesse, because they be the Iesuits aduersaries, then haue we also good cause to dread: but if contrariwise these be reported to be their aduersaries, and are indeed no lesse than we, and yet knowne to be good Catholick men, Vniuersities, and orders; it is no true cause of disgrace vnto vs, if we be reported also their aduer∣saries, for defending our selues against their violent injuries, and for resisting their other courses, mani∣festly hurtfull to our whole church.

Gent.

VVhat is the cause that they make these troubles, and giue such discontent almost in euery

place where they come?

Pr.

Surely not any perfection of vertue that is in them aboue other religious men, but their polliticke tampering, and their busie stirring both in temporall states, and Ecclesiasticall. For they being not tied to keepe the quire with diuine offices, as other religi∣ous orders bee, they haue more leisure and libertie than any other, to occupie themselues in matters impertinent vnto them. It is their glorie to bee euer stirring in the greatest affaires, and with the greatest personages where they come: yea, they delight so much in the actiue life, that their young men are no sooner out of their nouiceship or course in learning, but if there be ought in them, they begin to tamper and to become polliticke, and must be thought suffi∣cient to mannage any businesse. I remember I haue read in an Italian hystorie, written by a gentleman of Genua, touching the late king of Portugall Sebastian, and the competitors to that crowne after his death: how the Iesuits greatly fauoured by that king, distur∣bed not a little the peace of that kingdome by their tampering in the princes affaires: where the author noteth, how with great indiscretion, as vpon a head and suddainely, they would haue reformed the cor∣rupt manners of the countrey. Againe, how by the Cardinals meanes they procured the displacing of some auncient officers about the king, and brought in such as depended on themselues, to no small dis∣contentment of many. And lastly, how especially vp∣on the Iesuits motion and persuasion, the king enter∣tained the Affricane affaires, and resolued to vnder∣take that fatall voyage, from which yet they could not afterwards dissuade him, when it was misliked and thought daungerous by all his friends,* 1.9 because they had set him too farre in liking therwith before. But at the last, they wrought themselues out of fa∣uour

with the king as he sayth, for they would ouer∣rule all.

Gent.

I would see that hystorie.

Pr.

I thinke you may haue it in England, it is in Octauo, and printed in Italie, as I remember.

Gent.

By likelyhood then this busie intermeddling of theirs in Vniuersities, in kingdomes, in the char∣ges of Bishops and Pastours, &c. is the cheefe cause why they worke these troubles euery where.

Pr.

Verely I thinke it be. For among them he is most esteemed, that can shew himself most politicke, most stirring, and vndertaking, especially with grea∣test estates and highest matters.

Gent.

These humours are not in them all. For I know diuers of them very good, simple, and vertuous men, which trouble their heads with nothing, except their studie and deuotion.

Pr.

There be some of them no doubt such as you say, continuing in the simplicitie and good zeale, wherewith they first entered, and encreasing their spirituall graces. These, though they must sooth the humors of the rest, and in all things defend their actions, yet delight not to be busie and stickling in others mens affaires: and indeed these be the glorie of their societie, and deserue loue and honour aboue the rest. But there be few of this sort, considering it is a credit among themselues to be actiue and politick, and no small contention who may bee thought most to excell in these.

Gent.

Yet many good men thinke much, and mar∣vell what should be the cause why you secular priests should be aduersaries to the Iesuits, & haue conten∣tions with them, and especially with Fa. Parsons, who is most esteemed of among the Iesuits for his wisdome and other good parts; and who also hath wrought great good to our Nation, by his booke of Resolution,

which argueth him to bee a vertuous man: and by erecting Semenaries for the education of our yong men. And generally the Iesuits seek not their owne temporall benefit, but bestow themselues onely for the good of others: & many say, that without them our Church had bene in worse case than it is. Againe, that it is but a slaunder, that they entermeddle in the mattets of you secular priests, or that they haue any dealings in the affaires of temporall estates. It is no just cause giuen you by them, but your own vnmor∣tified passions, and disobedient minds to your lawfull superiors, which make you to repine and mammer, and to exclaime against them.

Priest.

For the Iesuits in generall, I neuer said nor thought other, but that if they keepe themselues onely at these good exercises of preaching, of mini∣string sacraments, without prejudice to the ordinarie Pastors, of catechising, of teaching in schooles, of vi∣siting the sicke; and liuing as brethren and fellow la∣bourers in Gods worke, seeke the estimation of the secular cleargie among their people: I neuer thoght (I say) but that they be very profitable coadjutors in Christs church, and deserue loue and reuerence of all sorts. But if withall they become officious sticklers in princes affaires, Ecclesiasticall or temporall, or busie themselues with entermedling in the secular Clear∣gies matters, which belong not to them, and seeke to aduaunce themselues in credit, and otherwise aboue the priests, as in England they haue done; I then thinke them very dangerous and noysome members in any church, for the subuersion of peace and good order; because vpon that disposition forthwith they bring in great deuisions, and draw both priests and people into lamentable factions, as is manifest in this poore realme. At VVisbich you haue heard how they made very scandalous contentions about esta∣blishing

a superioritie in one of theirs, aboue all the other prisoners. You haue heard also how they hin∣dered the vnion of secular priests in a confraternitie: how they withstood our endeuors touching Bishops or Suffraganes: how without our consents or priuitie they procured an Arch-priest to be ordained ouer all English priests in England and Scotland: they onely appointing what kind of superioritie and gouerne∣ment our Church should haue, and chusing the man which should be superior: notably abusing his Hol. and our whole Cleargie in that action, and very cun∣ningly hereby preuenting, that no superiour should be ouer them within the realme. VVho but they en∣forced the same authoritie, which themselues onely had deuised, and fraudulently obtained? VVho en∣forced it vpon our Clergie with violence and threats but they, and this before it was confirmed by his Ho∣linesse? VVho wrongfully defamed the priests, that bare off to receiue it before the confirmation came, to bee schismatickes, rebels, &c. but the Iesuits and others by their setting on? VVho, after all was paci∣fied, renewed the same slaunder and infamie against the priests, that for charitie sake had forgiuen it, but the Iesuits in England and at Rome, and the Archp. by their aduise? VVho haue continued the strife, by refusing all conferences, friendly debatings, disputes, meetings, and so many most reasonable offers, and indifferent conditions of peace, and ending all, as we haue made? And who sought to ouerbeare vs all by strong hand, without respect of equitie and consci∣ence, but the Iesuits, and the Archpriest directed by them? VVho haue most vncharitably injuried our priests by suspensions, by depriuation of faculties, by in just decrees, by hereauing them of their mainte∣nance, of their friends, and places of entertainement and harbour, and all this without triall or proofe of

any crime at all, or admitting them to answere, or ci∣ting them to appeare, but Iesuits, abusing the Archp. his authoritie? For by his instructions (as I haue said before) he is to doe nothing without the Iesuits ad∣uise and direction in any matter of importance: the good men prouiding, that not onely they should be exempted from all subjection and subordination to him and his authoritie; but also, that themselues should beare the greatest stroke in the execution thereof. VVhat belonged all these matters to them, if they had been content to stand within their owne bounds? They are religious men, by their particular societie and profession, seperated from the secular cleargie, and making a distinct bodie of themselues. By the rule of their order, not to take roomes of pre∣lacie among the Cleargie of the secular rank. VVhat then did it appertaine to them, to chuse the manner of our gouernement, or to appoint who should bee superiour to vs? It cannot doubtlesse bee defended from a malapart and presumptuous attempt, which is an inseparable proprietie of their busie entermed∣ling humour.

Gent.

They were priests, labouring in this haruest with you: and seeing this authoritie needfull, they might procure it without blame.

Pr.

They are priests indeed, but they bee excee∣ding cunning pollitickes withall. It was not the good nor peace of our church they aimed at, in procuring this authoritie: (For then they would haue wrought with our consent and liking, and the matter should not haue been shuffled vp in darkenesse as it was) but that by this meane they might domineere ouer vs, and themselues be freed from all subjection of our prelates. They are priests and our fellow labourers, so be we to them also; this required at the most, that we might admit them to joyne with vs in aduise about

these elections, as wee did in all things; but it could neuer priuiledge them to enterprise and contriue these matters against our wils, or without our con∣sents and priuitie; a great many of vs hauing labou∣red in the haruest as much as they, others hauing toi∣led farre aboue them, and as it were the whole bur∣den and weight of the worke lying vpon our shoul∣ders, and not vpon theirs, especially where painefull trauaile and pouertie is to be sustained. They would scorne no doubt, yea, exceedingly disdaine, and be∣stirre themselues, if we priests, their fellowes in this worke, should presume to ouer-reach as they haue done, and put our sickle into their haruest, to appoint without their consents or knowledge, what gouern∣ment and superiour they should haue: and yet wee with as much reason might doe this, as they haue done the other. Thus you see there is ouer-much cause giuen vs by them, of greefe and discontent∣ment. Moreouer, in this point they shewed another policie.

Gent.

VVhat is that?

Pr.

Marry, there bee often in our Church, large sums of money giuen in almes, ad pios vsus, we know they are granted and bequeathed, but few are bet∣ter for them: they passe God knoweth whither, but they are inuisible to poore Priests, and prisoners.

Gent.

Perhaps they come not to the Iesuits hands.

Priest.

I wish they did not, more than their equall share. But it is noted that either all or the most great summes, come to the fingering of certaine lay men, most intirely deuoted, and familiar with the Iesuits; the disposition of which men is thought to be sincere and iust, and not willing to disperse the almes but as the Iesuits shall appoint or approoue. VVee know the Iesuits to abound in all things; the Priests and poore Catholicks in many places, and the prisoners

generally to suffer penurie more than euer they did. Now, if wee had in our Church Bishops or Suffra∣ganes, chosen by the free voyces of our Cleargie, can you thinke these summes should be permitted thus vnprofitably to vanish away? or that the ex∣ceutors should not be brought to their accounts? or that the Iesuites should haue all the stroke in the distributions? or that their shares should exceed the poore mens in so great inequalitie as a pound is to a pennie? There was neuer greater almes giuen, than hath beene within these foure or fiue yeeres, in which the Iesuits haue borne the greatest sway: and yet there hath neuer beene the like wants a∣mong poore Catholicke priests, and amongst poore Catholickes in prison and abroad, and in the semi∣narie at Doway as hath bene in these yeeres, and still remaineth. It is wonderfull to consider which way it goeth. The Iesuits indeed abound in all things, but I will not charge them with bad dealing: let the sup∣position plead thus, or so, as men conceiue of it.

Gent.

I will not condemne them neither. But yet I haue heard of one Iesuit that hath worne a girdle with hangers and rapier aboue ten pound, a jerken also that cost no lesse, and also that had made him two sutes of apparrell in one yeare, and all very costly; & whose horse & furniture, & his owne appar∣rell on him was valued to an hundred pounds: one who for his part by the report of his brother, dispen∣deth yearly 400 li: & yet hath no patrimonie. If some few more of thē be as wastful as this one, no maruaile if great sums make little releefe among the poore.

Pr.

In this point therefore they dealt politickely, when they hindred vs of ordinary pastours and pre∣lats, that in all things themselues might run without checke or controuler. Thus they seeke to benefit others and not their owne.

Gent.

Yea, but M. Blackwell the Archp. writ to Cardinall Caietane, That the Iesuits sell their patri∣monies, to maintaine themselues and others.

Priest.

This is a meere fiction, to set out the Iesuits with a vaine glorious commendation: For it is well knowne that the most of them are poore mens chil∣dren, and neuer had patrimonie able to maintaine themselues, much lesse able to relieue the necessities of others.

Gent.

I euer thought it to be a fiction.

Pr.

Let this passe, and consider by the premisses whether we haue not good cause to exclaime against the Iesuits As for their report of our disobedience, it is reproued before: and for our vnmortified passions, I will not much stand with them, but thinke that nei∣ther ours nor theirs, are not so mortified I as could wish. Now by this which we haue alreadie said, it is apparent ynough, that they haue but ouermuch dea∣ling in the affaires of our secular Cleargie: and for their entermedling in state matters, it is needlesse that any accuse them, or go about to proue it, seeing their owne publicke actions giue assured testimonie against them. If they would denie it, Fa. P. owne han∣die worke is extant; the booke of succession, where∣in vnder the counterfeit name of Robert Doleman, hee rippeth vp the titles of all competitors to the crowne of England, disgraceth and weakeneth in what hee may the claimes of some, extolleth and highly ad∣uaunceth others, renuing the mortall dissentions be∣tweene the families of Yorke and Lancaster, laying perillous grounds for most cruell workes and bloud∣shead in time to come, and drawing all to some par∣ticular person whome hee affecteth aboue the rest. VVe will not speake of his bitter and disgracefull li∣bels against the deceased L. Treasurer, and L. of Lei∣cester: nor of his letters, and Fa. Creswels, intercepted

as they were sent into the realme, and yet in the Counsels hands for a testimony against him, touching inuasions and solliciting of men by these vaine hopes to be in a readinesse against his day, and I know not what daungerous follies besides. But touch in few words some of his other actions, that you may see whether he deale in state matters, or no. Did hee not earnestly moue our young students in Spaine to set their hands to a schedule, that they would accept the Ladie Infanta for Queen of England, after the decease of her Majestie that now is: yea, and finding them altogether vnwilling to intermeddle with those grea∣test affaires, belonging nothing vnto them, and most hurtfull to both their cause and persons; vsed he not this cunning shift to draw on the innocent and sim∣ple youths, to pretend forsooth to them of Vallado∣lid, that the students in Seuill had done it already; no remedie then but they must follow: and hauing thus craftily gotten their names, hee shewed them to the students of Seuill, for an example of their fact and forwardnesse, which he required them to imitate, that would bee well taken, that they all did thus shew themselues desirous of the L. Infanta for their Queen. Some more stout and better experienced than the rest, withstood the daungerous attempts, and would not yeeld: but they felt Fa. P. heauy hand vpon them euer after. VVas it not his vsuall persuasion to our students, when he would haue them to concurre with him in matters of state, That by the laws of England they were alreadie traitors for their religion; then for tampering with him about any other the greatest affaires, they could be no more. Goe to then, beeing once ouer shoes, be ouer boots also, step in as farre as you can, and spare not. VVhen hee had printed his booke of Succession, and was come to Rome, would hee not haue it publickely read in the Refectorie, at

such times as the students minds customarily were fed with spirituall lectures? VVhich vaine-glorious and prophane desire, when some of the schollers resi∣sted, because they thought it very inconuenient and hurtfull vnto them, to be acquainted with his plots in princes titles and affaires: the good Fa. was excee∣ding wroth with them, and they could neuer after haue his fauourable countenance. VVas it not Fa. Pa. and Fa. Creighton, Iesuits, that with such vehemencie & bitternesse contended each against other in Spain about disposing of the kingdome and crown of Eng∣land, Fa. Par. striuing to bring all to the Ladie Infanta, and Fa. Creighton to his king of Scotland? in which controuersie Fa. Parsons preuailed in that place, and frustrated and defeated all the desires & plots which his brother Iesuit had laied in his suits. VVere they not Iesuits which laied the plot with the late decea∣sed duke of Parma, for surprising or stealing away the Ladie Arbella, and sending her into Flaunders? VVho employed the messenger into England about that affaire, but Fa. Holt Iesuit? VVho but the same Iesuit was consenting with Sir William Stanley to the sending in of Richard Hesket, for solliciting Ferdinando, the late Earle of Darbie, to rise against her Majestie, and to claime the crowne? VVas it not the same Ie∣suit that entertained Yorke and Yong in the plot of firing her Majesties store-houses? That set on worke M. Francis Dickonson and others, to persuade watermen to flie with ships and all, into the seruice of the Spani∣ard? VVho but Iesuits feed the world dayly with fresh newes, & expectation of warres & alteration of the State by forrainers? But what, is this peculiar on∣ly to our English Iesuits, or haue not the Scottish fathers also in like manner bestirred themselues in that kingdome? VVhereupon were the three Ca∣tholicke Earls, Anguis, Arroll, and Huntley, conuicted

of high treason by acte of Parlement, about eight yeares agoe, to the confiscation of their liuelihoods, and their expulsion out of the kingdome, if not vpon certaine plots layde them by father Creighton, father Gordon, and vpon hopes giuen them of succours from Spaine? VVhy was the lard of Fentry executed, but by reason of the same designs imparted to him by Fa. R••. Abercromie, a Iesuit? was it not the principall cause of father Iam. Gordions trauaile to Rome about eyght yeares ago to sollicit the Pope, and other princes, to assist the king of Scots, if hee would enterprise any thing either against England, or in his own country? in which simple and indiscreet action of his, hee both deceiued the Pope, pretēding great matters to be in hand which were not, & was the quite ouerthrower of those three earls, in their present estates. These politicke courses, and this busie and dangerous en∣termedling by the Scottish Iesuits in Scotland, grew odious euen to the best there, and ruinated thereby the good estates of many, without hope of reaping benefit in any time to come. And yet forsooth the Iesuits are falsly slaundered, when they are sayd to deale in state matters. I know there be some of them which mislike these courses, and either through their owne vertuous disposition, or for respect of their owne quiet, safetie, or disabilitie, or finally for their studie or a religious life, shun in what they can al this kind of profane intermedling: yet the vertuous and temperat demeanour of these, can no more justifie nor excuse the dangerous stickling of their fellowes, than the presumptions of these busie heads can ble∣mish or deface their vertuous and religious cariage. Neyther haue I rehearsed thus much for any other end than to let you know how that the report is to be verefied of them, and not of vs secular priests: and how vnder the profession of Iesuits, all be not morti∣fied,

but some haue very politicke and stirring heads, yea in the waightiest matters that are. And for Fa∣ther Pa sons, that he more beats his brains about state matters than about the exercise of a religious life, it is euident by this one thing I will now tell you, besides all I haue sayd before or may justly bee sayd of him. VVhiles he was in Spaine, you see how he tossed o∣uer the Titles and Claims to the crowne of England; but besides this, he wrot two books of the Reforma∣tion of all the states of England. There the deuout Iesuit setteth vpon the Court. To rule in it hee ma∣keth orders for reformation of the prince and cour∣tiers, and appointeth what they shall obserue in their gouernment and liuing. The court of Parliament he will haue brought to better forme. Then prescribeth he reformations to the Bishops, prelats, and pastors: they must away with pompe and superfluities, and be put to their pensions: there he setteth downe ob∣seruances to all the secular states, and taketh vpon him to reforme the Counsellors, Noblemen, the gen∣trie, Yeomanrie and all. Then he censureth the Law, and appointeth what reformations are to bee made in it, and in the Lawyers. He commeth to the Vni∣uersities and Colledges, and in them hee will haue strange Metamorphoses. He dealeth with Cities al∣so and Corporations, Townes, Villages, Artisans es∣cape not the Censurers rod. No religious orders must be admitted within the realme, except Iesuits and re∣clused Carthusians. No Abbey lands must be resto∣red, except that of S. Ihones for erecting Colledges and houses for the Iesuits. This and much more stirre he maketh, as diuers haue told me, tampering in all estates; and yet Fa. Par. and Iesuits entermeddle not with prophane matters of estate.

Gent.

Surely, the Father hath a great conceit of his owne wit, that he can rule a kingdome.

Priest.

Doubt you not of that; and this conceit of his was much encreased, when hee saw the Spaniards so to approue and commend his plot: and the Ladie Infanta promised him, that these bookes of Reforma∣tion should be put in execution, when she should be Queene of England.

Gent.

Haue you these bookes?

Priest.

No. They be in England, but imparted to none, except the Iesuits trustie friends; by whom, the hearts of other men are disposed against the day to come.

Gent.

I perceiue that Iesuits are the only statesmen of Christendome.

Priest.

They delight to bee tampering; but euer they doe rather harme than good thereby. As is ma∣nifest in Portugall, in England, and in Scotland: in which countrey of Scotland truly I haue heard, that a Catholicke Earle hath many times bewayled the state and misfortune of their people aboue ours of England: in that the Iesuits, Fa. Hawood, Fa. Creighton, Fa. Gordion, Father Abercomie, which came first among them, endeuoured not so much to plant Catholicke religion, nor to bring their people to the sincere and deuout profession thereof; as they plotted about state matters, how to disquiet and subuert the tem∣porall gouernement. VVhereas contrariwise, your English priests (said he) brought in religion, and re∣spected only to draw the people to vnitie of the Ca∣tholicke Church, and to vertuous life: whereby you haue religion and the sincere practise therof, and our heads are still troubled with state matters, and wee know not what religion meaneth.

Gent.

VVhat? did those graue Iesuits carry them∣selues no better in their entrance into Scotland?

Pr.

That good Earle reported so: And surely it was much-what as hee said. For the good charitable

Fathers so greatly respected the temporall states of their countreymen, that they tooke a sure course for their safeties, for as much as concerned religion.

Gent.

VVhat meane you by this?

Pr.

No more, but that they tooke order and pro∣uided, that no Catholicke should bee damnified in their temporall estates, for cause of their religion.

Gent.

How could they doe this; vnlesse there bee not such strict lawes against Catholickes in Scotland, as we in England haue?

Priest.

They haue as sharpe lawes in this point as we; but thus the wise Iesuits preuented all dangers: They freely permitted Catholickes to goe to church with protestants, and made no sinne nor scruple of this as we doe. And thus no law could take hold on them, for who could be knowne to be a Catholicke?

Gent.

Did they graunt this libertie to all?

Pr.

In this sort they did it: If one were a notorious knowne Catholicke where hee came, then they taught it to bee vnlawfull in that place to goe to church, by reason of scandale, and no otherwise. But if one were not certainely knowne to bee such a Ca∣tholicke, he might goe without offence; vpon con∣dition, that if he heard any hereticall doctrine prea∣ched, which mooued him to doubt in any point of faith, he should presently come to some of those Fa∣thers to be resolued.

Gent.

This was prettie jugling, and they were like to haue good Catholickes by this meanes.

Priest.

This in truth they did: and their Catholicks were as good for this point, as they desire to haue thē. For it was an intollerable miserie to see houses ouer∣throwne, and men to leese their lands and goods for a precise course, when so small a matter as this would saue all.

Gent.

Saue all? All had better haue been lost, than

saued in this sort. But did they al agree in this course?

Priest.

All these auncient and wife Fathers agreed vpon it, and practised as I haue told you. Two punie Iesuits, to wit, Fa. Holt at the beginning, and Father Oglebie since, euer misliked, and in what they durst gainestood them in this opinion and practise. But these two being young men, subject to the old, their opposition was rejected, and they put to silence.

Gent.

I wonder, those men being accounted graue, vertuous, and learned, would take this course to re∣claime their countrey from heresie and schisme. They seemed to make no other reckoning of going to church with protestants, than that it was onely scan∣dalous and daungerous for infection: which two sins might in some sort haue been preuented or hindered by the meanes you say they tooke. But did they neuer know nor call to mind, that it was sinne of it owne nature, as being a manifest externall profession of a false religion, as we account it?

Pr.

They could not but know it; if the ouermuch desire to saue the temporall estates of their Catho∣lickes, did not blind their vnderstanding, or make them to neglect the due examination of the case; which latter, I cannot thinke of them, because Father Holt and Fa. Oglebie in open words and disputes con∣demned the fact.

Gent.

But our English Iesuits euer practised and taught the contrary to those Scottish Iesuits.

Pr.

They haue done so, for any thing that euer I heard to the contrarie, except once, that Fa. Bosgraue went to church, and Fa. Thomas Langdale, and as some say, Fa. Kirkham, which fell farther thā to go to church with protestants. The English Iesuits found our secu∣lar priests to haue rightly instructed and reformed our church in this point, and to haue established both the doctrine and the practise before their entrance;

and therefore they could not without great confusi∣on and discredit runne any other course than that wherein they saw our priests to haue led them the way. Marry, what they would haue done in this case, if they had first set vpon the worke, and begun in England a forme and practise of religion before secu∣lar priests, as their bretheren Iesuits did in Scotland; this I cannot certainely diuine: but I doubt mee greatly, both by the proceedings of those auncient and learned Scottish Iesuits, and by the pleasing hu∣mour of their fellowes here, they would not haue beene so strict in the matter, as both they and we bee now, refusing with so great detriment of goods, lands, libertie, and liues, the least participation or resem∣blance of communion with protestants, in all points, practise, and profession of religion. For I know a fa∣mous Iesuit now in England, who, I heare hath made offer of a scandalous, and in my conceit a very vn∣lawfull libertie: If that a Gentleman will become Catholicke, hee should haue licence to eat flesh in Lent, and in all fasting dayes, among Lollards and Protestants; that by so doing, hee might liue without suspition of being a Catholicke, and escape daunger of the lawes.

Gent.

This were a prettie licence, and not much vnlike to that you rehearsed of theirs in Scotland. And if this were permitted, we should haue soone a fine peece of iuggling in the exercise of our religion. In my opinion, the Catholike that should eate flesh vpon fasting dayes with protestants, thereby to in∣duce them to thinke him no Catholick, but agreeing with them in that point of religious obseruancie, should commit a greeuous mortall sinne, by inten∣ding to seeme no Catholicke, but a Lollard, or prote∣stant. And this, albeit hee had another principall end of his action, as to keepe himselfe thereby from de∣ciphering

what he were, and from many temporall losses: For this seemeth to bee an ill meane to those lawfull ends, and (as you said before) we must not do ill that good may come vpon it. Besides, in this case mee thinkes a Catholicke man should bee bound to professe his faith and religion, by abstinence from flesh among those protestants, they breaking the fast in contempt of Christs religion and church. In which end or action, a Catholicke should not any way par∣ticipate with them, neither formally nor materially, when it cannot bee done without prejudice to the faith, nor without scandale, as here it hardly can: es∣pecially the protestants owne law commaunding the due obseruance of such fasts. And truly, admit in this case a Catholicke man were not bound to professe his religion by abstinence, especially, if there by some great losse or harme should certainely befall him: yet I perceiue no reason, why hee may by any act of his, bearing a shew to be opposite to his religion and the precept of Gods church, make any externall re∣semblance of an hereticall profession, as hee doth by eating with them.

Pr.

These reasons of yours haue perhaps better grounds to vphold them, than the Iesuites libertie hath: and without peraduenture it is the surer way for any Catholicke to take. It is the opinion of all the learned, that no man ought to doe any thing, either scandalous or prejudiciall to the faith of the church, for to saue himselfe thereby from a temporall harme. Now this eating of flesh, beeing alwayes (morally speaking) scandalous and prejudiciall to Catholicke religion in our countrey: it cannot bee justified by this circumstance or end, to wit, that thereby a Ca∣tholicke shall not be noted to bee a Catholicke. For if a Catholick should eat to be thought a protestant, his eating were damnable; seeing that to bee noted

to bee a Catholicke, is in it selfe no temporall harme to any: and the temporall detriments and losses which may ensue to any by this discouerie or note, may be either preuented before they fall, or they bee no more but ordinarie in these times of persecution, and ought to be borne of euery Catholicke with pa∣tience, rather than to bee shunned with scandale, or the least dishonour to God and his Church that may be deuised. And in these matters of action, and in the exercise of religious obseruandes, it is not fit to take or teach a fashion, lying so neare to daungerous sinne (if it be not sinne of it selfe) as doth this eating of flesh with protestants.

Gent.

I thinke no lesse. I haue also heard, that the Iesuits haue graunted some extraordinarie liberties lately, about conferences had by Catholicke priso∣ners with Protestants, for procuring their libertie thereby: also about licensing or holding opinion, That a Catholicke may lawfully marrie with an He∣reticke.

Pr.

I haue heard no certainetie of this matter. But let these be as they shall, our English Church is happie by the course of our secular priests, and theirs of Scotland is in bad tearmes, by the courses of the Iesuits. Now, where you said, That our Church would not haue been in so good case as it is, but for the Ie∣suits: I am not to judge hereof. For on the one side, no doubt but they haue done good; because it is not to be thought, that so many of them as are in the realme, haue been idle and fruitlesse, but haue helped forward Gods worke; though not to bee compared with the secular priests in this point: no, not setting man for man. For the great toile and burden of the worke hath euer lien vpon secular priests; and those cheefely which laboured among the poore, not able to releeue them with meat or money, or any other

ordinarie supplie of necessarie apparrell or conueni∣ent lodging, some of them suffering more miserie in one quarter of a yeare for gaining poore soules, than all the Iesuits in England doe in a whole yeare; who commonly keepe richest houses, and sustain no want of things necessarie or conuenient. And on the other side, they haue caused by their cunning plots and bu∣sie tampering, so great deuision among the priests themselues, and raised so horrible dissention and di∣slike of both priests and people, one with another; which was neuer heard of in our nation, before they began their politicke stirrings and brokings of facti∣ons; and finally, so greeuously deminished the cre∣dit, estimation, and reuerence of priests, due vnto them from the laitie, yea, brought them into con∣tempt, that I feare mee much all the good they haue done by their spirituall labours, will not counter∣uaile the harmes they haue wrought by these polli∣ticke and strange endeuours of theirs. For it was better without comparison to haue our Church, Priests, and People vnited together in great loue and reuerence, both sincere, simple, deuout, and in peace, as it was before many of the Iesuits entered; than to haue among vs emulations, contentions, pol∣licies, contempt of priests, falshoods in fellowship, a distrust or a feare each of other, slaunders, infamies, and a generall decay of vertue and deuotion, as now the matter is brought vnto, and had neuer ben like∣ly to haue entered, if they had not come amongst vs. And sure I am, that the cheefe noursey of our church, that is, the Seminarie of Doway, is exceedingly de∣caied, since the Iesuits had the mannaging of things, especially of the almes purse in England. And for the Seminarie also in Rome, no man can reprooue vs of an vntruth, if wee say that it in like sort hath suffered no small detriment, since the death of

Cardinall Allen.

Gent.

But these losses are recompenced abundant∣ly by the erection of new Colledges in Spaine by Fa∣ther Parsons.

Priest.

It is a vain glorious boast, and a fiction. The losse receiued in those two Seminaries, is not recom∣penced in halfe by all that Fa. Parsons hath done, as by and by I shall declare. Touching that part of their report, where it is maruelled why we should bee ad∣uersaries to the Iesuits, I haue answered it sufficiently before. Now it remaineth that wee speake of Fa. Par∣sons, VVhat say you of him?

Gent.

Marry, many thinke it strange you should be at dissention with him, hee beeing a man so well thought of and esteemed both in his owne order and by the most that know him: his booke of Resolution argueth him to be a holy man, and his endeuours in erecting Seminaries for our countrey, sheweth, that he is both a good man, and most carefull for the good of our countrey, and to bee far from doing any of you wrong in the least thing that may be, &c.

Pr.

If Fa. Parsons haue deepely wronged vs, men need not to wonder, that there should bee contenti∣ons betweene him and vs. It is no whit likely that we should stomacke the man, or contend with him, vn∣lesse he had giuen vs cause. VVee will therefore dis∣cusse this point, and touch all the rest which you haue mentioned for his commendation: but let vs take them in order as you spoke them. For the credit and estimation he hath among men of his owne order; it is with some of them good, and with others very meane; and they all generally repute him to be very polliticke, and of a busie and stirring disposition, more desirous in all things to draw all men to his owne will, yea, and violently to enforce thereto such as be weaker, than hee is to follow any other mans

aduise or course. I know some Iesuits his seniors in re∣ligion, men of better talent than he, who looking in∣to his peremptorie and headie courses, haue often censured thus vpon him: That he was too contenti∣ous and wilfull, and that it were better for their reli∣gion, and the world also, that hee were shut vp for euer in some religious house, than to bee stickling a∣broad, and tampering in all matters as hee dooth, which must of necessitie in the end turne to the harme of many, and to the discredit of their society, after his deuises come to light. Also I haue credibly heard, that others should often complaine and say of him, That their societie was more troubled and dis∣quieted, yea, and discredited, by the deuises and im∣portunitie of one Englishman, Father Parsons, than by all the men of other countries besides: for hee neuer ceaseth wrangling and contending with one or other, and with many at once. I haue my selfe heard a Scottish Iesuit (farre his auncient in the soci∣etie, & of a good account) to inveigh greatly against Father Parsons violent nature and courses, and to condemne his polliticke and cunning entermedling in all matters, to the hurt of many, and to the discre∣dit of their order. Father Holts and Fa. Hawoods opi∣nion of him was (these Iesuits I name, because they be dead) that he was of a violent and imperious dis∣position in most things, and with the most men hee dealt with; neuer quiet, vnlesse hee ouer-ruled all; exquisit cunning, with flatterie and fawning to bring others to his bend, and if this would not win them, then to be most fierce and violent, vtterly to breake them that should stand in his way. The religious Fa. hath found many occasions, and deuised many shifts these twentie yeares and more, that hee might liue abroad out of his order, and be employed to sollicite affaires in princes courts, or to haue rule and com∣maund

in Colledges. And the conceit he carrieth of his owne wit and sufficiencie, maketh him to attempt any thing, and euer to bee vnwilling to condescend to any mans aduise but his owne. The men of his owne societie also note this in him, That hee hath a speciall regard to haue the whole managing of Eng∣lish affaires, and that no other of his bretheren, how auncient, wise, or learned soeuer, shall communicat with him in these matters, or haue any dealing, vn∣lesse they yeeld themselues in euery point to follow his directions and courses, and be wholly at his com∣maundement. And they say this only to be the cause why he hath hindered all the grauest and most suffi∣cient English Iesuits beyond the seas to come into the realme, or to entermeddle in the wielding of our Churches affaires; least (forsooth) they should refuse to follow his deuises, and by a more discreet and temperate course, both win from him the credit, and beare away the principal stroke and commaund. Thus much for the estimation he hath among many good men of his owne societie.

Gent.

There be very many yet which thinke well of him.

Priest.

No doubt but diuers thinke better of him than he deserueth, or than they would do when they shall come to vnderstand his vncharitable deuises, and what discredit hee hath brought both vpon our English church, and vpon his owne societie, by his cunning and intemperat dealing. In the meane while they will like him well, as long as hee standeth them in stead, either in England, Spaine, or elswhere.

Gent.

He is much esteemed in Spaine, and in Rome by all the Spanish fauourites.

Pr.

He is so, and no marvell it is. For what prince would not much esteeme a man that can entitle him and his to the kingdome of England, raise vp a bro∣ken

claime from before two hundred yeares, and so handle the matter with a cunning flourish, that it must bee made to seeme the best and likeliest of all that haue been since. For not onely hee aduaunceth the surmised Spanish Title, but disgraceth in what he may, and weakeneth all the rest. This his plotting about the crowne and kingdome of England, and sharing it to the Ladie Infanta, with deuising proba∣ble meanes (as he persuadeth them) to effect his plot, made him very famous and highly esteemed in that nation, and woon to him such singular grace of the old King, the Ladie Infanta, and all their friends, that his word might doe much in any matter, either to pleasure his friend or displeasure his aduersary. Hence also doth proceed the fauour and credit he hath with the Embassadour of Spaine, and all them of the Spa∣nish faction in Rome: the hope wherewith he dayly feedeth them of bringing this to passe by his owne pollicies, and the helpes he can procure in England, causeth them to admire the man, and him to be most highly esteemed among them.

Gent.

It is very ridiculous, if they should bee so simple, as to think Fa. Parson to be able when the day commeth, to set the crowne of England vpon whose head it pleaseth him, or that he should haue so strong a partie in England, as are of power to beare the best game away, and dispose thereof at his pleasure.

Priest.

They neuer heard that hee was sonne to a blacke-smiths wife, but take him perhaps to be some nobleman, and allied with many great ones. And in∣deed for his imperious carriage, he may easily seeme to strangers to be better descended than in truth hee is. For hee is exceeding bold, of great vndertaking, and can set out all he hath to the best shew. Besides, a kingdome is an object of that alluring qualitie, as the very simple-wishing of a man thereto, procureth

liking, and fauours, much more the entiteling a prince thereto, and deuising meanes to compasse the same.

Gent.

It is so, but Fa. Parsons is much esteemed of by most Catholickes in England: yea, and of many Protestants also, by reason of his booke of Resoluti∣on, and the Seminaries hee hath procured for our Nation.

Pr.

As this booke of Resolution was a good work, and woon him all the credit which was due to Grana∣do, that laid the platforme to Father Parsons hand, and gaue him the principall grounds and matter there∣of, and which also was deserued by maister Brinckley for the penning (as diuers report:) so no doubt the libell he writ against the Earle of Leicester, and the other against the old L. Treasurer, and this worke of Succession, whereby he entitleth the Ladie Infanta to the crowne of England, with disgracing all other Ti∣tles and Competitors, hath got him much hatred and discredit in England and Scotland. If the booke were his, it was well done, and he deserued commen∣dation for it; and surely, if he had gone forward with the other two parts (as he promised) hee had spent these twentie yeares and moe, both more to Gods honour and the good of his countrey, and to his own greater merit, than he hath done by all his other pol∣liticke stickling in matters of State, or by his cun∣ning, his violent, his contentious, and his vnconscio∣nable proceedings otherwise. But his head was too busie, and ouermuch prophaned; and greatly it is to be feared, (his dealing considered in Spaine and in Rome also, against our students, and the two good priests we sent thether about this authoritie: again, his deceiuing the Pope by false information, both in procuring the authoritie, & by incensing him against the priests) that when he finished that booke of Re∣solution,

he made an end also therewith of deuotion, sinceritie, and honest dealing. It is no certaine nor probable argument to proue a man to be a Saint, or a vertuous and a good man, because in times past he hath written a vertuous booke; yea, or because hee writeth one in the present. For this abilitie consisteth principally in the power of a mans vnderstanding: whereas vertue and goodnesse, as well supernaturall as naturall, resteth in the will, and affecteth the ope∣rations thereof. Lucifer that damned fiend was a Che∣rubin of highest intelligence, hee and his wicked an∣gels exceed all men in wit and knowledge, and want no skill to contriue and make spirituall bookes of ab∣solute perfection: yet this great knowledge of theirs neithet maketh them good, nor can argue them to be vertuous spirits, as long as their will is peruerted. The like we may say of Adam, that neither his great graces wherein he was created, nor his supernaturall gifts, which remain after his fall, (in both which states he had sufficient skill to deliuer to the world as good doctrine, as Fa. Parson hath done) could proue him to be a good man, when he had cast himselfe out of the state of grace, into sinne: and the fame is true also in euery learned man, beeing in mortall sinne; and in Fa. Parson himselfe, if at any time since he hath beene in that damnable state: by their sinne they are depri∣ued of justifying grace, and other supernaturall ver∣tues depending therupon; but their faith, their hope, and knowledge gotten before their fall, remaineth still; by which they may teach and write as perfect doctrine as before they could. Yea, I haue heard Do∣ctor Stapleton report of certaine bookes written vpon the holy Scripture by Iohn Caluin, that they contai∣ned excellent good morall doctrine; and if the here∣sies entermingled therewith, were cancelled, that they might be read with great profite and pleasure;

and yet no Catholicke will denie, but that Caluine notwithstanding all this, was a great enemie to the Romane religion. Did not Salomon write many de∣uine volumnes, and yet afterwards he became a bad man? Now let Fa. Parsons booke goe with that deser∣ued commendations: what hee was, good or bad, whiles hee writ it (for hee might bee either) I cannot judge, and I will suppose the best; but what hee hath been since, his owne bad actions yeeld presumptions ouer-pregnant and probable, that sometimes he hath been no Saint, nor sincere honest man.

Gent.

In my conceit, it is a manifest signe of a de∣fect in wisedome, judgement, and discretion, for any so worthely to valew a man for one or many his good actions past, that when after the same he doeth euill, he will not beleeue, or see it; or else in manifest faults stand to justifie and defend him, by reason hee was once a good man, or had done well before. For mens judgements should be conformable to the object, or otherwayes they cannot be true: and in this, though the precedēt good actions ought to stay a man from rash judgement, and to make euery one suspend his censure vntill he be assured of the fact; yet when his euill doing is once apparant, a wise man should not let his affection cary him away to judge blacke to be white, or a man fall'n to vice, to remaine still a saint.

Priest.

VVell then, you see that Fa. Parsons booke of Resolution made aboue twentie yeeres agoe, cannot justifie, nor ought not to patronize his naughtie acti∣ons committed since; no, nor in the judgement of any man, to prejudice our cause and vs in these contenti∣ons we haue with him.

Gent.

In reason it should be so: but yet the Semina∣ries in Spaine, & saint Omers, erected by his means, haue gotten him much credit, & cause men to thinke him the bestfriend our Countrey hath.

Pr.

If men would judicially consider what he hath done in this point, perhaps they would thinke worse of him and his actions than they doe. For albeit there be now by his meanes moe Semenaries for our yong studients, than before; yet doublesse our Countrey reapeth much lesse benefit now by all, than it did of old, by the two onely of Rome and Doway. So that in trueth his endeauours in erecting new Colledges or Seminaries, haue rather much diminished the com∣moditie, and decayed the good of our Countrey, than encreased it: and then consequently Fa. P. deser∣ueth small thanks for his labour.

Gent.

How can this be possible?

Priest.

Thus: First, you will grant me, that it is the greater benefit and good of our Countrey, the moe students wee haue brought vp in the Seminaries, which become priests, and yeeld themselues to labor in our English haruest.

Gent.

I cannot denie this, for the greatest increase of our Cleargie, is our Countries greater good.

Pr.

But before Fa. P. erected his, there were moe good priests yeerely sent from Rome, and Rhemes or Doway, into England, than is or hath bene yeere∣ly since from those two, and all the rest besides.

Gent.

How happened this?

Pr.

Marry, before Fa, Par. erected his, and before the Iesuits had the greatest stroke in monie matters in England, it is well knowne that in the Colledge at Rhemes, there were sometimes eight score, other∣whiles 200, or 220. of our Countrie-men, old and yong, students; now the number is diminished to 60. All that came were well-come, and friendly enter∣tained, none rejected, brought they money, or brought they none: now can none bee receiued without a grosse summe of monie, or else a yeare∣ly stipend, vnlesse he be fit at the first to studie Diui∣nitie;

and either not at all, or very hardly can any be entertained, vnlesse he be sent or commended by the Iesuits, and Archp-riest: In those dayes sixteene priests or moe were sent into England in one yeere, now three, or foure bee many: then the renowned fame, and glory of the Colledge, drew vnto it good schollers, and ancient men, from the Vniuersities of Oxford, and Cambridge; but now it hath lost the an∣cient credit, and thought a meeter schoole for boyes, than for men: then, it was a famous Nurserie for the best Literature; now the science of scholasticall Di∣uinitie, is not much respected, if it be not altogether laid aside. I let passe to speake what difference there is betweene those old, and these new gouernours.

Gent.

This is a wonderfull decay: of likelyhood the ordinarie stipends are withdrawn, which came year∣ly from Spaine and Rome.

Priest.

No, they are still allowed.

Gent.

VVhat then is the cause of this ruine?

Pr.

No other, but the diuerting away of the almes vsually sent out of England to supplie the necessities of that Colledge: for receiuing these, the house flou∣rished, and could doe much; and wanting them, all must of necessitie decay.

Gent.

Are the Iesuits to blame for this?

Priest.

VVould to God they were not. But thus much is certaine; larger almes were neuer giuen, than hath been these late yeares; againe, it hath ben obserued, That the more the Iesuits be in credit, and got into their hands the disposing of things, especially the almes-purse, the lesse releefe hath beene sent to that Colledge out of England; yea, not an hundred markes in three or foure yeares.

Gent.

VVhich way thinke you these almes are implied?

Pr.

I know not, but as I told you, the prisoners in

England, the poore priests and Catholicks neuer suf∣fered such great want of releefe, as they haue done these late years; the Iesuits indeed haue abundance, but so great summes cannot be consumed vpon thē∣selues only, some other passage there is for it doubt∣lesse: we will not speak what many surmise and mut∣ter secretly of buying annuities, of putting into banke beyond the seas, (for two thousand pound they say was intercepted this yeare going ouer, from whence or whether, it is not known to me, more than that generally it was reported to be sent by the Iesu∣its) or of maintaining Iesuits in other countries. Let these passe, and be they true or false, it is not to bee thought other, but the Fathers here will haue a spe∣ciall eie to the Colledges which themselues haue ben a meane to erect.

Gent.

It is very well if it goe to them.

Priest.

It is better so than worse. But marke now what dammage ensueth thereby to our Church. The Colledge of S. Omers is onely for children; none (except their parents bee deare to the Iesuits) can haue place there, vnlesse hee bring with him fortie pounds, or fiftie pounds, or more, or haue some good annuitie to maintaine him. Now the Colledge of Do∣way or Rhemes, entertained indifferently all that came, and vpon the vsuall almes sent from England, maintained them, albeit they brought nothing: but if this Colledge at S. Omers for children that come also well prouided, intercept or receiue the almes which were accustomed to bee sent to Doway or Rhemes, for the maintenance not of as many chil∣dren onely, but also of at the least foure times as ma∣ny priests as be there now, is it not manifest, that our countrey looseth far more at Doway, than it gaineth at S. Omers, by erecting of a Colledge there?

Gent.

It may be, that this notable defect is supplied

by the two Colledges in Spaine.

Priest.

I perceiue not that it is so. For both they returne not into England yearely so many priests by farre, as are wanting now in the number accustomed yearely to bee sent from Rhemes; and so the great dammage remaineth still. VVhen Doctor Barret, pre∣sident of the Colledge at Rhemes, perceiued this hurtfull effect to befall our countrey, by Fa. Parsons diligence in erecting these new Colledges, hee writ seriously to him about the matter, and assured him, That it was much better to maintaine the Colledge of Rhemes, which was the beginner of all our coun∣tries happinesse, next to God, and was the greatest glorie and good of our Nation, than to build new ones to the decay of this: but Fa. Parsons (after his fa∣shion, impatient of any admonition) tooke his aduise in very ill part; and to correct the Presidents bold∣nesse, forslowed (as was thought) to procure the Spa∣nish pension, till the Colledge was almost vndone, and dissolued.

Gent.

This is a very great losse to our countrey, and yet noted by few or none.

Priest.

Nay, the Iesuits beare you in hand of ine∣stimable benefits receiued by these new Colledges.

Gent.

They doe so indeed, but these benefites bee onely in conceit I see now.

Priest.

You will see it better, if to this I haue alrea∣die told you, wee adde the multitude of our schollers, which are consumed by the distemperat air of Spain, and die there: for S. Omers is no more but to bring vp children in humanitie, and after to send them to Spaine; which losse also had been preuented by the vpholding of the Colledge at Rhemes or Doway, re∣gions more agreeable with our English nature than Valle de Leith, or Ciuill. Againe, if we consider ano∣ther exceeding great losse of our countreymen go∣uerned

by the Iesuits, and which was euer auoided at Rhemes & Doway, gouerned by our secular priests; we haue good cause to thinke our countrey to gaine nothing by these new Colledges for continully they entice and allure many of our finest wits, and most towardly youth from the ordinarie vocation of our Cleargie and of our secular Pastours, to bee of their own societie. Many also they make (for trifles) male∣contents, by their polliticke dealing; they driue o∣thers from their naturall simplicitie, to become cun∣ning headed; not a few they dismisse the finishing of their studies, vpon light discontentments; many they quite breake by indiscreet wrongs and incompassio∣nate handling: and finally, those Colledges are the principall fountaines of contentions and deuisions among our Cleargie; some in matters of strife ban∣ding with the Iesuits, and some against them, as now you see in England; which breaches of peace and concord were neuer among the priests brought vp at Rhemes or Doway, before the Iesuits and their disci∣ples entred the realme, and made factions against such as had contended with them in their Colledges, or listed not to run their courses, and feed their hu∣mors in England. Now for the Colledge in Rome, how they haue vsed the matter, I know not; but eue∣ry second or third yeare since it was founded, there haue beene monstrous contentions and tumults be∣tweene the students and them, to the vnspeakeable dammage of our Church. In times past, besides ten or twelue knowne Iesuits, (for there was also many moe secret brethren, running vnder the name of our students, as I said before) besides also twelue, or four∣teene, or more seruants, there was accustomed to be releeued aboue threescore and eight students; but now the number is brought to fortie or thereabouts: their vineyard is sold and spent, and the students in

no small discontentment, notwithstanding all the faire weather Fa. Parsons bloweth of their peace and happie estate. Thus you see what thankes Father Parsons deserueth by erecting Semenaries for our Countrey.

Gent.

I cannot but exceedingly wonder at these things, and me thinks the Iesuits cannot but perceiue these inconueniences to follow vpon these endeuors of theirs, and take pitie of the losse.

Priest.

No, no, you are deceiued, they more respect their owne gaine, than they feele our countries losse.

Gent.

VVhat gaine they, but much toile and la∣bour in this world? they looke for their reward in the next life.

Pr.

I nothing doubt but they looke for both; and for ought I perceiue, the temporall cōmoditie great∣ly moueth them for the present, in the gouernement of our Colledges.

Gent.

VVhat temporall gaine is this?

Priest.

VVhereby they haue the choise of all our youths, and are in very great possibilitie to draw into their societie the floure of all our Catholicke young men. For being Superiours, Masters, Confessors, Fa∣miliars, and Gouernors vnto them, they haue all de∣sired opportunities to worke their designes; which they should not haue had, if our students were from vnder them, as at Rhemes they were: this they think will be the greatest glorie, credit, and aduauncement of their order aboue our Cleargie in the English na∣tion, if they can draw vnto them our finest wits, and best discended. For at these two kinds they most aime and fish.

Gent.

Yea, but if this be so, I perceiue another be∣nefite to redound vnto them by their gouernment of our Colledges. For by hauing the whole sway in all our Seminaries beyond the seas, as they haue, (for

they say that Doway also is wholly at Fa. Parsons de∣uotion and direction in euery thing, especially since he placed Doctor Worthington to bee President there, who is a man known to be the Iesuits entirest depen∣dant:) it must follow hereupon, that they should en∣force all the Catholickes in England to seeke vnto them to win their fauours, to pretend at least to bee their friends, to depend wholly vpon them, and to run their courses; for otherwise their children shall be debarred of all benefit that may bee had in those Seminaries. And thus our whole Church at home and abroad, must be drawne necessarily to relie on Father Parsons and the Iesuits; feed their humours, and you shall haue what they list to affoord vs; displease thē, and nothing is to be had. But I pray you, are they di∣ligent (as you said) in fishing for our cheefest youths? and againe, so indiscreet in their gouernement, as for toies to exasperate and discontent them?

Pr.

For their earnest and diligent fishing, it is very true, they doe it most carefully, and they vse the ex∣ercise, as a cheefe meane to catch the schollers; be∣sides mine owne certaine knowledge and experi∣ence of their great and dayly industrie in this point, I haue knowne some of their owne society much con∣demn them for it. Fa. Holt himselfe hath told me, that their societie delighted much in this fishing; and to be most impatient of reproofe or opposition therin: But of our English Iesuits, especially Fa. Parsons and Fa. Creswell are most zealous in this point. This point is so tenderly respected by our order (said hee) That whosoeuer dealeth to our contrary herein, is thought to tangere pupillā oculi nostri, these were his very words. VVe haue certaine men amongst vs, which be noted for fishers, and are named, Piscatores Patris Generalis: these employ their wits and labours to draw vnto vs the best they find euery where. VVhich thing (said

hee) I cannot much dislike, when they bring young men out of the world to resolue vpon a religious course, which otherwise perhaps might haue peri∣shed, or neuer applied themselues to vertuous life: but this diligence to be vsed in the Seminaries amōg our English students, whom we haue vndertaken to frame and make fit for our English haruest, which for this happie end are committed to our education, and which by singular grace and vocation, are already re∣solued to take an Apostolicall kind of life peculiar onely to our countreymen among all hereticall na∣tions; to vse this importune fishing among them, was a thing that neuer liked me. He said moreouer, That this fishing, with the partialitie they vsed to them, (they either had catched, or desired to allure) was the principall root of discontentments and conten∣tions betweene them and the Iesuits in the Semina∣ries. Againe, That himselfe being Rector of our Col∣ledge in Rome, was put from the office, because hee would not be so forward in this fishing, as they would haue had him.

Gent.

Did Fa. Holt the Iesuit reueale this secret vnto you?

Pr.

Yea truly, and much more to the same effect; and how the indiscreet zeale of some was such, that they would not stick to discontent and afflict for any trifle, the towardliest young men we had, if they per∣ceiued them not to fancie their baits. The good man himselfe stood indifferent, would entice none; yet entertain any, that moued by the spirit of God, came freely of themselues, towards which, hee would yet vse no partialitie to draw them on by extraordinarie fauours (as the manner is) but in all things sought to mortifie them aboue the rest: but complaint beeing made hereof, hee was speedily thrust out of the go∣uernement. It was thought by the students, an vn∣seemely

and disordered thing, That the Iesuits being no priests, and some, lay brethren, should take place before our priests; but it was maintained by the Ie∣suits as a point of good nurture, and due vnto them; and they which seemed to dislike the disorder, were accounted and vsed as aduersaries.

Gent.

Me thinkes the Iesuits should giue them ra∣ther examples of mortification and humilitie, than to contend about these vanities.

Pr.

It should bee so; but thus it was. Fa. Creswell, who was in Rome for many causes judged by Cardi∣nall Allen to be the vnfittest to gouerne that euer he had knowne, after many troublesome garboiles hee had made in the Colledge, whilest hee was Rector there, at last by Cardinall Allens meanes was remoued from that gouernement, and sent into Spaine to Fa. Parsons. This stirring and busie-headed Father, during the time hee was Rector in Rome, delighted in no∣thing so much, as to crosse and ouer thwar•• the stu∣dents in euery thing. They 〈◊〉〈◊〉 their vineyard a pleasant little groue of trees, in which they much de∣lighted to sit and to recreate themselues, when they were permitted to goe thether, for it cast a goodly shade, and defended them from the piercing heats of the Sunne this comfort Fa. Cr••swell he like thought not fit for banished schollers; for suddainly (without acquinting Cardinall Allen, or any therewith) he cut it downe, and sold the wood, and not long after the vineyard also was alienated by sale, frō the Colledge. The fact mightily offended the good Cardinall, and the students; but therein the good Iesuit tooke his joy. This mans humor in that gouernement, being (as he thought) something restrained by the Cardinals presence and authoritie, of that full scope he desired to haue; he would in publicke exhortations shew his discontentment, and vauntingly say (as a Iesuit told

it me) VVhat? we respect not Cardinals in our dea∣ling, we feare them not, we are rather to make Car∣dinals, than to be ouer-ruled by them. This same vn∣fit Rector, by the judgement of Cardinall Allen com∣ming into Spaine, was by and by esteemed the fittest to gouerne that might be, by Fa. Parsons. There (as the priests which come from thence, report) he keepeth no lesse reuelling among the students, than hee had done at Rome. This is hee that in open sermons ex∣claimeth against our secular cleargie in England, say∣ing, There be many gone out of the Seminaries into England, well qualified with learning and naturall talents, but would to God wee could spunge out of them, yea, suck out of them with a spunge their lear∣ning, and their naturall good qualities; besides, they bee contentious against vs, and aduersaries to our societie.

Gent.

These be monstrous speeches, and argue a very vntemperat spirit.

Priest.

Oh, it is a goodly zeale, the man is feruent, and (as I heare) according to his humor, they in Spain and Fa. Parsons in Rome haue taken order, That few of our students, especially such as are thought not greatly to affect them and their proceedings, shall be ouer-learned hereafter: For almost all are set to positiue Diuinitie, and not suffered to bee Philoso∣phers, or scholasticall Diuines. And truly it seemeth incredible to heare, how many of our finest wits and young men of great expectation, these two violent Fathers (void as it seemeth of all compassion and hu∣manitie, against whome they carry displeasure) haue discredited and quite broken. Some for no other faults, but for breaking their fast in a cookes house, when they had hard commons, and great scarsitie of victuals in their Colledge; as Fa. Parsons did a great companie at Rome: others, for eating a little milke,

which they bought as they walked in the fields: o∣thers for washing themselues in a riuer without the citie, and the like, as Fa. Creswell did to some in Spain. VVhere some also were put to a pennance of bread and water, be cause they would not aske pennances: some for slipping with his tongue, and saying in stead of Patrem Ministrum, Patrem ministerium: some violently pulled by the eares for calling a lay Iesuit Harmannon, that is, brother, in Spanish; where he would haue ben called Pater, Father; and a thousand such, which for breuities sake I now omit.

Gent.

These religious men haue much deceiued me: For I thought they had ben very mild, and kept great moderation in their gouernment, specially to∣wards our countreymen, which voluntarily haue vn∣dertaken this hard course of life, for seruing God and gaining of soules, without any hope of temporall be∣nefit, but with assured miseries at their returne home; as we see dayly many of them to suffer tortures, im∣prisonments, and death, besides many other afflicti∣ons before they fall into the hands of their persecu∣tors: in respect of which difficulties, reason would they should be courteously entertained during their time of studies, and much borne with, if they frame not themselues to the exact obseruance of some strict orders.

Pr.

Our gracious Cardinall Allen was of your opi∣nion in this point, and so sweetly demeaned himselfe in his gouernement towards all, that hee woon the hearts of euery one; hee was full of pittie and com∣passion, and in his great discretion could beare with the imperfections of young men. For hee considered their hard estate of voluntarie banishment, where they wanted almost all comforts & pleasures which their owne countrey would haue yeelded them. And therefore by all gentle and friendly vsage hee ende∣uoured

to encourage them, and yeeld them all con∣tentment and consolations, which the place and his abilitie would permit; euer carefull, that none should be discontented, or made malecontent for trilles and matters of small importance. And truly my selfe haue heard him often say, That a good Gouernor, especi∣ally in these times with our countrymen should haue a great regard to saue all that come vnder him, and in no wise for some naturall imperfections and trans∣gressions of good orders, which may bee tollerated without sinne, to discourage any, nor for trifling and light faults to loose their other good talents.

Gent.

This course is most agreeable without time and countreymen, which enter voluntarily into this hard state of life, and as voluntarily remaine therein.

Priest.

That blessed man thought so, and during his life, practised the same with all sorts: for he withstood Fa. Creswels and the Iesuits attempts in the English Colledge at Rome, when they endeuoured to bring vpon the students certaine hard orders, which were no whit necessary to the good education of the schol∣lers, and yet could not but be exceeding disgustfull, and greeuous vnto them, without any the least pro∣fit at all.

Gent.

VVhat orders were these?

Priest.

The very same which were misliked and re∣jected also by Cardinall Toledo, when (after Cardinall Allens death) the Iesuits attempted afresh to establish them: and indeed effected their desire after Cardi∣nall Toledo was taken away. As, that no scholler shall write letters abroad, or receiue any, without license and the surview of the Iesuits their gouernors: again, that none shall write to any of his fellowes of the Colledge, or receiue letters from him, without the same licence and review. Item, That none shall come in companie, conuerse, or recreate with any other of

his fellow students, but with such onely, as they shall be appointed vnto. Item, That no two shall talke to∣gether, vnlesse they either call a third person to heare them, that may witnesse what they speake, or else talke so loud that they may be heard of other. These and such like they haue induced to the great discon∣tentment and affliction of the students, which (as I said) Cardinall Toledo, after Cardinall Allen, rejected as very foolish, and vnfit for our countreymen; & they seeme deuises, smelling rather to proceed from a bar∣barous, wili••, and tyrannicall spirit of some Macha∣uelian, than from a discreet, mild, and religious zeale. For (as Cardinall Toledo said) it were more necessarie to find meanes to procure the greatest loue and fa∣miliaritie among the schollers that might be (they all going to fight against heretickes in the same campe) than by such burdenous and vnprofitable orders as these, to afflict them in their tyrannie, and estrange them one from another.

Gent.

This was wisely said of the old Cardinall Allen. But if it be true which I haue heard, there is another thing practised by the Iesuits in the gouern∣ment of our Colledges, of as great inconveniencie as these. For I haue been often told, how the Iesuits haue in euery company of schollers their spies, which they call Angeli custodes, which alway lie in wait, what they can heare said or see done by any scholler, and foorthwith carrie it to the Superiour: These spies by their indiscreet diligence in this office, and to picke thankes by their informations, vsually cause great discontentments and vnquietnesse in the Colledges, incensing the Superiors against the students for very toies, and making euery hillocke a mountaine. And besides the other euils these fauoured make-bates do by their whispering tales, the very office it selfe con∣sidered in its own nature in a Communitie, breedeth

much harme: for it causeth euery one to distrust o∣ther, it is the bane of all mutuall loue and sincere friendship, and cannot but bring forth much emula∣tion and dislike.

Pr.

It must of necessitie haue these bad effects, but this pollicie pleaseth Fa. Parsons, Fa. Creswell, and other Iesuits; for thus they shall bee acquainted with all that is said or done, and more to. Thus they shall pre∣uent all treasons and conspiracies intended by the students against their gouernement, bee it neuer so bad.

Gent.

The Iesuits and their fauourites giue out, That the students haue beene very disordered and dissolute, as going to eat and drinke in the tauernes, which could not bee without the discredit both of themselues, and of the Iesuits: some were taken by the officers in the manner, others confessed the same.

Priest.

If the Iesuits haue thought themselues any way discredited by the schollers, they may bee relee∣ued when they please by giuing ouer that gouerne∣ment, which both the schollers and the wisest of our nation (that know the state of things) wish they would: but this they will not do, for loosing the com∣moditie they get by their fishings in that place. Now for the disposition of our countrymen which vnder∣take that course of life, it is well knowne, that before they come vnder the Iesuits gouernement, they be generally of the most vertuous & towardliest youths our nation yeeldeth; neuer noted for drunkards, or enormiously disordered and dissolute, especially in those vices, whereunto other countries wherein they liue, are most subject. How this lamentable alteration of then natures should be made vnder these religious men, I cannot conjecture; but rather doe I thinke it to be a false slaunder, raised by the Iesuits for justify∣ing their owne discommendable actions, than to

haue any ground of truth in our countreymen, espe∣cially in any matter of importance. For as touching their going to the tauernes or cookes house, though in Rome it may seeme a great disorder, and perhaps giue some little scandale; yet what scholler is there in England, or in most places of the Christian world, that can thinke it in owne nature any enormious crime to breake their fast in a coolees ••ouse, especi∣ally when the fact is lad, with these circumstances, as theirs was? First, that Father Parsons and the Iesuits gaue them very hard fare in the Colledge, and such as would not suffice the natures of diuers of them to preserue their health and life: again, that it was done very sildome, and but with two or three at once in a companie; and this also in the secretest manner that might be: and lastly, with that moderation, that their appetites were not hindered from taking their ordi∣narie refection in the Colledge.

Gent.

Cardinall Allen, though sometimes hee would sweetly reproue this among his students, yet hee ne∣uer thought it any enormious crime or disorder, de∣seruing infamie, or expulsion, or disgraces; considering they wanted that full diet in those countries, which they had ben accustomed vnto in England, and were growing young men, whose natures required more than ordinarily they were allowed in the Colledges▪ And surely, if Fa. Parsons and the Iesuits had tende∣red the good and credit of our countrymen, as Chri∣stian charitie, compassion, and friendship required, they would neuer haue disgraced and discredited them for that fault before his Holinestly, the Cardi∣nals; the whole citie, and Christendome, as they did; nor haue sent after thē into England most infamous, libels, as we see they haue done; not so much to the discredit of so many good priests, as to the scandale of all the nation.

Pr.

There be many great presumptions of the Ie∣suits vncharitable and bad dealing in that action. For the students were exceedingly pinched in their diet, some thought, vpon purpose to cause them to seeke for more abroad. Againe, Fa. Parsons admitted a mari∣ed Irishman into the Colledge, and put him in the habit of a student; he could scarse say his Pater noster, yet that fauour hee found, for what purpose God knowes. This married Irishman earnestly sollicited now these, now others, of the students, to goe with him to the cookes house to breake their fasts. Some perceiuing diuers to be drawne by this mans entice∣ment, and fearing the Iesuits conniuence and pati∣ence in the matter (for they could not but know its admit they set not the Irishman aworke, as many greatly feared they did) would turne the students to some greater harme in the end; they themselues ad∣monish Fa. Parsons and the rest, of the disorder, and desired them to be more carefull, and to preuent the inconueniences which might ensue to the Colledge thereby: yea, and further told them, that their neg∣ligence in the matter, yeelded no small suspition of some further aduauntage and drift they intended a∣gainst the students. The good Fathers seemed not to beleeue, nor much to regard the thing. At the last, this Irishman with great importunitie inticed one of the priests to goe with him. This priest was a good vertuous man, of good example and edification to all the rest, and had been with his fellowes opposit to the Iesuits in all contentions with them: after the de∣cease of Cardinall Allen, his innocencie and vertuous behauiour bare him out, that the Iesuits could haue nothing to except against him in all those tumults. After he, the Irishman, and another priest, had cele∣brated abroad, in their returne home they went to an English priests chamber in the citie, called Master

Midleton, who had had much bickering with Fa. Parsons both in Spaine and Rome. In his chamber they in∣tended to breake their fast, but the Irishman would haue them in any case to take it in the cookes house, which was at the next dore, and at the last he preuai∣led: they had no sooner entered, and called for some meat, but before they had tasted, behold the Isbeces or souldiors come vpon them, and apprehend them; a strange thing in that towne, and the like not heard of before. Fa. Parsons was sent for, hee seeming vnac∣quainted with the stratagem, lamented their misfor∣tune, and in the way of fauour procured they should be imprisoned in the Colledge. He shut vp euery one apart in close prison. The Irishman seeing his procee∣dings, exclaimed against him, but he was charily kept and could neuer after bee spoken with by the schol∣lers, least he should tell tales. Then began Fa. Parsons and the Iesuits to bestirre them, and caused all the students to come each one before his friend Accrisio the Fiscall, and himselfe, and to confesse how often they had been at the cookes house, or eaten abroad; and he assured them, that they were bound in consci∣ence euery one to accuse himselfe. He was the exami∣ner, his Iesuits the notaries, and when hee had gotten this aduauntage against the yong men, he diuulged what pleased himselfe; hee incensed the Pope, the Cardinals, and all the citie against them, & wrought the vtter discredit of our countreymen, which before that day were honoured and highly esteemed of (not without great cause) in that towne, and all the Chri∣stian world besides. Then brought hee in the orders, which the Iesuits had so much desired: hee dismissed diuers of the disgraced priests into England with or∣dinarie faculties, and with friendship (as then he pre∣tended) but recalled their faculties before they arri∣ued in Flaunders, and sent infamous libels against

them vnto his Iesuits in England, containing most vile crimes; whereof (as the priests protest vpon their saluation) they were altogether innocent, and not so much as once examined of, whiles they were in Rome. The priests at their departure, fearing that Fa. Parsons bad dealing would haue no end nor measure, besought him to let their faults bee knowne in their presence, least that after they were gone, other things might be laid vnto them than they had either con∣fessed or done. This he would not graunt, but willed them to depart in peace, and to assure themselues, that he had no great matter against them, except that disorder of eating abroad: the greatest offenders were left behind; yet after these were once gone, he cleared the rest of the greatest crimes, and said they touched onely them that were departed. Thus this good Father jugled, and wrought the shame and dis∣credit of our good countreymen among strangers, and prosecuted the vtter subuersion of their good names in England by his infamous libels.

Gent.

These be wofull things to heare: but I, and others haue noted one wonderfull worke of Gods in this case, (that is) That many of these young priests so disgraced by Fa. Parson and the Iesuits, haue fall'n since their comming into England into the hands of our common enemies, yet they all haue stood constantly to their profession, and indured pa∣tiently both prisons, and what else hath beene done against them: VVhich vertuous carriage could not haue proceeded from them, if they had been men of that dissolute disposition, as Fa. Parson, and the Iesuits would make vs beleeue.

Pr.

This is admirable indeed, and their vertuous behauiour in time will recouer them their credit, and bring confusion vpon their slandering aduersaries, when the world, frustrate of I know not what, tem∣porall

hopes by the Iesuits meanes, shall leaue sway∣ing with them. But I pray you, what other slande∣rous reports doe they and their dependants giue out against vs?

The fift Slander.

Gent.

They doe say moreouer, that you priests bee the onely Statesmen, and not they. For you bee Scotists in faction, labouring to set vp the King of Scots, a knowne hereticke, to bee king of Eng∣land.

Pr.

Thus they slander vs throughout the realme, and these be Fa. P. words also in his letters to his as∣sociats in England, the 18. of Ianuarie 1599. vnder the name of Martine Aray, whē he had the two priests we sent to his Ho. fast in prison. But to refute the malicious slaunder, we need do no more but appeale to his, and his associats owne consciences, and to the indifferent iudgements of all honest men. For first, it is so certaine and manifest, that Fa. P. with diuers of his brethren haue dealt in the greatest matters of State that may be, concerning both the present al∣teration of all, and the future disposition of the crown and kingdome; that with any shew of truth or hone∣stie, it cannot be denied: and yet neither hee nor all his adherents shall be euer able to proue, or truly to affirme, that those two priests, Master Doctor Bishop, and M. Charnock, or any of vs (whome so vehemently they seeke to ouerthrow in our good names by their manifold vntrue slaunders, and by this shamelesse letter of his to bring vs in hatred with all Catholicks in the world, and to stir vp against vs our own prince and magistrats to bereaue vs of our liues) he shall ne∣uer be able to proue, that we haue dealt in State mat∣ters, or liked of his dealings. It hath pleased him and his fellows presumptuously to tamper in these affairs,

which concerned them not. They haue set vp their rest vpon the hopes of Spaine, procured the emnitie of the king of Scots, and of all other competitors to the crowne of England. Now of likelyhood, Fa. Par∣sons is sorrie we be not ouer boots with him, and fea∣ring the euent, he waxeth jealous of all mens acti∣ons, and specially of ours, whom he knoweth to con∣demne his daungerous and harmefull courses; and the zealous father finding vs not to run with him as he would haue vs for Spaine, or the Ladie Infanta, (as truly it becommeth not vs to meddle in these great affaires, but to applie our function, and to commit the disposing of kingdomes and princes businesses to Gods wisdome and prouidence, seeing our intermed∣ling in them may bee offensiue and hurtfull many wayes both to our selues and our Catholick people, without any profit at all) he imagineth that we be his aduersaries, and consequently to fauour the king of Scots, whom he hath needlessely made his enemie: which king of Scots hee affirmeth (for our greater disgrace with all Catholickes) to be a knowne here∣ticke, and vs to bee Scotists in faction; a thing most offensiue to our present state, as he saith. In which vncharitable calumnies, how Fa. Parsons can acquit himselfe of too bad dealing, both with the present State, and vs, it goeth beyond my capacitie to vn∣derstand. For how knoweth he that it offendeth the present State, her Majestie, her honorable Councell, and other magistrats, that any should affect the king of Scots, and preferre him before all others after her Majesties decease. The present State maketh no shew at all of any such auersion from the king of Scots and his title. Fa. Parsons then vpon his own surmise should not affirme so odious a thing. VVhich if it bee true, and so conceiued vpon his assertion, it may very well

be matter of disgust and quarrell betweene her Ma∣jestie and that king, and perhaps touch the present State, with dissimulation of kindnesse towards him. And if it bee false, it must bee very injurious to the present State, and both their royall persons. And for vs, what temeritie and vncharitable dealing is this in a Iesuite, to write, That so many Catholicke priests are Scotists in faction, and that without any respect of religion at all, they are about to set vp the king of Scots, a knowne hereticke, and this to offend now the present State? If wee should goe about such an enterprise, no doubt, but we should greeuously offend the present State, no lesse than the Iesuites haue done, by their endeuours to set vp a Spaniard; it beeing prohibited by the lawes of the realme, vnder a capitall penaltie, That none shall meddle with the matter of succession, during her Majesties life that now is; much lesse, attempt the setting vp of any, before her Majestie be dead. And in this case, if it had been true, perhaps it had not beseemed Father Parsons to haue beene the first be∣wrayer of vs, and discouerer of our fault, and there∣by bring vs all in mortall hatred with the State, and in manifest daunger of our liues, he knowing that it would so mightily offend them. But it being alto∣gether vntrue on our parts, and no other than his owne jealous imagination, hee hath done vs intol∣lerable injurie, thus to make vs odious to our owne Prince and State, without our ill deseruing. I can perceiue no other drift hee should haue in this ca∣lumnie, than (all his other deuises failing) by this vntrue fiction, to vndoe vs, whom he reckoneth his aduersaries. He knew when he writ this letter, that wee went about to procure a prohibition, That no bookes or Treatises of State-matters should be pub∣lished,

which might any way exasperate her Maje∣stie and the present State against vs, which came onely to plant Catholick religion among our coun∣treymen, whosoeuer they were that should gouerne the kingdome: this I say hee knew very well. How then in a charitable mind could he thinke it likely, that we our selues were about to set vp the king of Scots, which (as he confesseth) would most of all of∣fend the present State? VVee desired to auoid all occasions of offence, and this good Father will ne∣uerthelesse accuse vs to offend in the highest degree. It is not conuenient nor safe for vs to follow Father Parsons designes in these matters of princes and king∣domes, and therefore he and his associats must par∣don vs, if we dislike their doings, and quite refuse to joine with them.

Gent.

It behoueth you to doe no lesse, especially in these daungerous times, when a man shall ha∣zard much, and loose all ere he be aware. But sure∣ly, Father Parsons had some notable pollicie in his head about these State-affaires, when hee procu∣red, That the Arch-priest his authoritie should bee extended ouer all English priests in England and Scotland.

Priest.

Hee had no other, than that by this absurd meane hee might further the Spanish title, and hin∣der the Scots. For when he procured this authoritie, the Catholicke Archbishop of Glasco was liuing, and releeued by the kings consent and graunt, out of the reuenues of his Bishopricke. And yet was this Archp. authoritie stretched throughout all the king∣dome of Scotland, without any respect or subordi∣nation at all to that Archbishop; for no other end, but that there should bee no friendship, familiaritie, conuersation, nor communion betweene our priests

and the Catholickes of Scotland, and thereby the people of both nations be kept still at their auncient mortall enmitie.

Gent.

Mee thinkes this cannot bee but very vn∣charitable, and absurd. For the English priests ha∣uing from his Holinesse jurisdiction to minister Sa∣craments, as well in Scotland as in England, why should they not as freely (if they bee so disposed) helpe to saue the Scots, as the English? Or why should that people for a controuersie about Titles and Crownes, be debarred of their spirituall releefe by our priests, considering they haue almost none of their owne? The worke of God should not be hin∣dered through these vaine respects. And againe, it seemeth, that Father Parsons pollicies in temporall matters, blinded his judgement in spirituall. For how vnfitting and vnseemely is it, That an Archpriest in England should haue his authoritie extended in∣to the diocesse of an Archbishop in another king∣dome, without any dependance, or subordination vnto him? VVhat can be more injurious both to the Archbishop and to the Priests, than this? The priests be free, and at their owne choice it is, VVhether they will continue and labour in these dangerous workes, or leaue them. If wearie of England, they passe into Fraunce, Germanie, Spaine, or any other part of Christendome, except Scotland, they are without the Archpriest his jurisdiction; the Bishops of those countries may dispose of them: but if for their owne safeties, or for desire of sauing soules, or for any other good respect they depart into Scotland, the Catho∣licke Archbishop there cannot dispose of them, not employ them nor hold them, otherwise than the Archpriest in London will giue them leaue; in his power it is, and not in the Arch-bishops within his

owne See, what authoritie, and faculties they shall haue; whether they shall vse anie part of their fun∣ction, or no; and finally, hee may enforce them ei∣ther to leaue that kingdome, how needfull soe∣uer they be for Christian soules, or else to remaine vnable to doe them good, with many moe like in∣conueniences.

Priest.

The disorder is exceeding preposterous, and shamefull, but thus it pleased Father Parsons to frame all to his owne purpose, without regard either of Priests, or Archbishops, or Christian soules, or Christ himselfe. But to end this point of their slaun∣der, with a manifest confutation and shew of their ill dealing with vs: I pray you conferre this. That wee be Scotists in faction, and that wee deale in matters of State, with their other slaunder, which wee haue alreadie touched before; that was, That wee are highly fauoured by the State, and maintained by the Councell and Magistrates: wee need no more, but for a sufficient confutation to set the one against the other. For if it be true, That we be Statesmen, and goe about to set vp the king of Scots; and withall, that this most of all doth offend the present State (as they say;) it cannot surely be true, that we are highly fauoured and maintained by the State and Coun∣cell, as they report for our disgrace: Because the State and Councell will not fauour nor releeue them, that so greatly offend them by their dealing in state mat∣ters. Or againe, if this latter be true, That the Councel fauour and maintaine vs: it must of necessitie bee false, That we offend them by tampering for the king of Scots. But whiles vndiscreet zeale and vncharita∣ble affections mooue the Iesuits and their adherents to injurie vs by all meanes they can, they run them∣selues headlong into these absurdities, to make one

of their slaunders to confute another. For they all beeing vntruths, vttered vpon a mightie stomacke, and a vehement desire to discredit vs, they hang to∣gether, and agree like Sampsons Foxes: but our innocencie and truth I hope will pre∣uaile in the end against all mal∣lice, and iniquitie, and cunning shifts.

FINIS.

Notes

• * 1.1

  2. 2. q. 39.
• * 1.2

  Ver. Schisma.
• * 1.3

  Ver. Schisma.
• * 1.4

  C. 27.
• * 1.5

  Variar. resol. c.
• * 1.6

  Matth. 7.
• * 1.7

  Rom. 14.
• * 1.8

  Tho. 2.2.
• * 1.9

  This Historie is now in Eng∣lish: See page 9. 10. 11. &c.