The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe.

THE ARGVMENT AND SVMME of the fift Dialogue.

THomas declareth the causes, for which he did enterprise and take in hande his vio∣age vnto Sainct Patricke. And inasmuch as Eusebius could not mainteine his Pur∣gatory by the aunerent Doctors of the Church, he laboureth and enforceth him∣selfe, if he can relieue it, through the ayde and helpe of the holy Scripture, and taketh for his first defence and weapons the second booke of the Marchabees: by occasi∣on whereoff, is intreated, the difference which ought to be put, betweene the bookes that are Canonicall & those that are Apocryph: And it is in like manner declared in what authoritie & reputation that booke ought to be a∣mong the Christians. Afterwards, although peraduenture, there shalbe some matters, which may seeme somewhat curious vnto some men, yet neuertheles shall be spokē of the Limbes, as wel of the auncient fathers as of the young children that are borne dead, & dead without circumcision & baptisme, & of the difference which may be betweene thē which haue ben vnder the new & old testamēt, as wel little as great, as wel quick as dead, & of their condition & estate. We do entreate of those things very amply bicause that many do moue questions, & that there is good, prosi∣table & necessary points to be vnderstanded, for to correct many errors, abuses & false opinions, thuching those mat∣ters, which are come among the Christians. Ther shalbe in like manner spoken of baptisine administred by womē & declared by liuely & plain reasons, how Iesus Christ, is the onely health & satisfaction of all the elect, & children of God: & how the vertue & efficacie of his death & pasion extendeth it selfe frō the beginning of the world vnto the ende of the same. Item, what is the true baptisme of Ie∣sus Christ: the remission of sinnes, & the satisfaction wor∣thy of the righteousnesse of God. To what ende the god

woorkes doe profit the Christian. What is the iudgement of God vpon the good and euill, and by what means some are deliuered, and other some doe abide subiect. Further∣more, how the iudgement is alredy done vpon euery one, and whether we ought yet to attend & loke for it: And how Hel and Paradise doe begin already in this world, & when their full and whole consumation shal bee. It shalbe in like manner declared, how the place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all to proue the Purgatory: And there shall be also declared of the manner, by which the aunci∣ent people of God haue prayed for the dead, and for the comming of Iesus Christ, and wherein the Christians may follow it, without speaking against the word of God. It shal be also touched how in our time and by what meanes Sathan endeuoured himselfe to establish his Purgatory, and the prayers for the dead, and what maske & instrument he hath chosen for to do that. Wee doe call this Dialogue the Hels, bi∣cause that wee doe declare how ma∣ny hels the Papisticall doctrine hath forged for vs, and the lodgings and chambers that it hath there builded.

¶THE FIFTH DIALOGVE which is called the Hels.

EVsebius. For as much as Thomas hath reserued for himselfe one part of this day for to make his Narration, and of hys owne accord hath graunted vnto mée the greatest parte, therefore it is good reason that hée do begin first. Wherfore I giue him the choice, whether he will go before or behinde.

Hillarius.

I desire for my part, that Thomas doe re∣hearse first the cause of his enterprise and voyage. For I doe much desire to heare it and vnderstand it.

Thomas.

Thou oughtest not to be much desirous of it. For thou canst not heare of me any thing which is much worth. Wherefore I am well content to holde my peace, if you wyll. For I feare greatly that after that you haue heard mée, you will mocke me, chiefly Hillarius, who is so expert in that occupation. I beléeue that it is the chiefest cause, wherefore hée so greatlye desireth to heare my wordes. Wherefore I thinke it best Eusebius, that thou doe procéede-forwarde and prosecute thy intent. For the matters that you haue to intreat off, are better then those which you can heare of mée: And in hearing you, I may profite, but in speaking, I can but spende the time, the which you wil employ and best nine to a better ende. And therefore beginne, and after if there be any spare time, I will sée what I shal do.

Theophilus.

I beleeue that we shal haue time inough. Feare not thē to begin, sith y^• thou hast alredy told vs, y^• thou wilt not be ouer long. But thou wilt make vs finde the thing good. For that cause dost loue to be entreated so much, knowing that the more thou re∣fusest to tel vnto vs that we demaund, so much y^• more we desire it.

Thomas.

I haue regard vnto another thing. I consider y^• which Salomon hath writtē, saying: if a foole do hold his tongue, he shalbe counted wise. For he compareth * 1.1 man, to a loohing glasse, or a bell y^• which one doth know

by the sounde; whether they be broken or whole. So in like manner may one iudge of man, in hearing him speake, whether hée be wise or foolish. For one perceiueth the spirit of man, in his word. As his figure in a glasse: and one may beholde in the same, the nature of him, as the com∣plection of the body in his water & vrine, by which it is ea∣sie to iudge, what drogues hee hath in the shoppe of his braine.

Hillarius.

Thou wilt that one should saye of thée, that which a Philosopher once said of a certeine man y^• he did sée sit at a banket, which spake not a word, although y^• all the others did put foorth certeine questiōs, & gaue vnto him matter inough for to speake in his course. If that man (saith * 1.2 he) be a wise man, hée playeth the part of a foole: if he be a foole, he playeth the part of a wise man.

Thomas.

I cannot well vnderstand that matter. For me thinketh that it con∣teineth & implyeth contradiction.

Hillarius.

He giueth ther∣by to vnderstand, that euen as too much speaking apper∣teineth vnto fooles & ideots, so alwaies to holde ones peace, agréeth to beasts, and not vnto men. Wherfore ther must be a meane kept in all things.

Thomas.

That is the same to the which I pretend: And I doe thinke, that I speak y∣nough according to the place & men with whom I am. And bicause y^• I am not wise, for to speak wel. I wil at the least∣wise thorow silence thorow silence counterfet the wise. For it is cōmon∣ly said: it is euil to speak Latin before learned men. When * 1.3 I am with ignoraunt men as my selfe, I doe speake as a Doctor, especially if I thinke that I haue the moytie of a dragme or scruple more of knowledge then they. But when I come before you, I doe loose by and by all my babling.

Hillarius.

Thou wouldest héere very gladly make an ende. But thou must first declare vnto vs that thou hast promised.

Thomas.

Sith y^• thou vrgest mée so much, thou shalt haue it: But if thou doest mocke mée, bée assured, that I shall haue as good matter agaynst thee, for to ren∣der vnto thée the lyke. For thou thinckest to heare some

greate secrete, and thou shalt finde thy selfe deceiued: doest thou not know mée yet, Hillarius? First of all, thou art not ignoraunt, how that I was neuer verye wise. Thou mayst then presume, what merchaundise I can bring foorthe of my shoppe, and what Doctor contempla∣tiue I may bée. Thou knowest verye well that I am called

Thomas.

Now if I be Thomas of name, yet I ap∣proch nerer of the nature of my godfather, of whom I do beare the name then of his name. If hée hath ben incre∣dule * 1.4 and vnbleeuinge, insomuch that hée woulde not be∣leeue the resurrection of Iesus Christ, excepte hée dyd see him, himselfe, with his owne eyes, and touche him wyth his hand, and except he did put his fingers in his wounds. So for my parte, I doe doubt, and know not well whome I may beleeue. But I haue greater occasion to doubte, then Sainct Thomas had. For hée hearde the promyse which Iesus Christ made of his resurrection, of whiche hée had not so••iust an occasion to doubte, sith that hée had already so many times founde by experience Iesus Christ true in all his words, and that he had all his fellowes and companions, who with one accorde did tell him, howe hée appeared vnto them after his resurrection, and that they had seene him and touched him. But I, whiche am but a poore ideot and very ignoraunt, what ought I to thinke, and whereto ought I to staye my selfe, when I consider the diuersitie of opinions whiche is amonge men, touchinge the religyon, and namely touching the e∣state of the dead, and of the infernall and celestiall regy∣ons and habitations, yea, amongest the moste sage and wisest? As I haue proued in these dayes amonge your selues, who are of as contrarye a sentence the one from the other, as the fire and the water. Therefore haue I taken in hande the voiage of Sainct Petricke, in which * 1.5 as men say, one shall see the estate of all the dead: the tor∣mentes of the dampned which are in bell, and of the soules detayned and kepte in Purgatorye and in the Limbe, and in lyke manner the ioyes of Paradise.

Therefore I doe trust and hope, that I may be there in∣formed in the truth of all those things, and that after I haue séene them I shal be out of all doubt. For I know no more to seeke any other remedies. Yet neuerthelesse, sithence that I haue beard these matters debated more amply and cléerely and better declared, then euer I did be∣fore, I haue very much lost my fantasie. You doe well re∣member, that I sayd, that after that I had spoken to the holy father, who hath so well disciffered that matter, that peraduēture I should haue gained my voiage, without go∣ing vnto him, I feare very much that before that I depart from you, you will cut off all the way, and make it shorter. For I hope through the helpe of God, that we will visite this day all those chambers & internall habitations with∣out mouing our selues from hence, and before that we de∣part, if that the one and the other of you doe that, where∣of you brag and vaunt your selues you will. For you haue promised on euery of your partes, that you will haue re∣course to none other Iudge, but to the pure word of God. And as for mée, if you take it for the Iudge, I am wel con∣tent, * 1.6 to take it for my guide: And I am certeine that it will guide mée better, then Cyble guided Aeneas.

Theophilus.

If thou doe not hold thy selfe assured, Da∣uid, who speaketh by experiēce, can certify thée, saying. Thy woord O Lorde is a lanterne vnto my féete. That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead, as Virgile did cause Aeneas to bee lead of Syble vn∣to his father Anchises, but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God, thy immortall father, whome by the same thou shalt heare speake, for to put thee out of all doubt.

Hillarius.

Ther is also an other point, that when we shal haue ended * 1.7 the voiage, we shal not go by y^e gates of dreams, as Aeneas: or as our holy father, whom we haue heard dreame so wel, as all such as hee is doe, which repose & rest themselues in any other bed, then vppon the pure word of God. For it hath such vertue, that whosoeuer resteth vpon it shall ne∣uer dreame nor raue: or it bee dreame, hee goeth not

by the gates of Iuory, but by y^e horne gate, which is cleere * 1.8 & through the which one may sée as with the eyes: in such sort that such dreames are more certeine, then that which others doe sée with their eyes: as it appeareth in those of Ioseph and Daniel. But he that will lye or rest himselfe in any other bed, shall neuer cease to dreame and wander * 1.9 astray out of the waye: And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory, which is thicke as y^e bones are, Wher∣fore one can perceiue nothing by the same, as we doe sée by experience in our Theologians and Sophists whiche are so obscure and darke that one can sée nothing at all. For after y^e they haue well banketed & moisted thēselues w^t that good Theological wine, they haue y^e spirite of wine y^t which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them, & ma∣keth * 1.10 them to enter by the gate of Iuory, that is to saye, betwéene the téeth and chawes, which causeth so many ex∣halations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine, & so many fumes and heates to ascende and mount into the braine, that they do dreame more déeper, then the lowest parts of hell and the seate of Lucifer. Afterwards they re∣turne beeing rauished in their Poetical furor & madnesse, as if they were departed all newly and freshe. But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory by force of chewing and mouing their chawes and cockscombes, as the Organ bellowes, so doe they go foorth by the very same gate.

Thomas.

Let vs then go in by the other gate, and in suche sobrietie, that we may know the things, as though we saw thē w^c our eyes. But who shal begin to declare & shew it vnto vs? mee thinketh y^t Eusebius maketh himself ready. Begin then to knocke, & cause it to be opened vnto vs?

Eusebius.

I will enter first by the olde testament.

Hillarius.

But take good heede you lead vs not awrye, and to take the one for the other: For if thou doe erre and go astray, we will direct and leade thee into it againe.

Eusebius.

But I will direct and leade you well. Giue * 1.11 eare then vnto that which is written of I••das Machabens,

〈1 page duplicate〉〈1 page duplicate〉

〈1 page duplicate〉〈1 page duplicate〉

〈1 page duplicate〉〈1 page duplicate〉

〈1 page duplicate〉〈1 page duplicate〉

〈1 page duplicate〉〈1 page duplicate〉

〈1 page duplicate〉〈1 page duplicate〉

Therefore I t•••• trust and hope, that I may be there in∣formed in the truth of all those things, and that after I haue séene them I shall be out of all doubt. For I know no more to séeke any other, remedies. Yet neuerthelesse, sithence that I haue beard these matters debated more emply and cléerely and better declared, then euer I did be∣fore, I haue very much lost my fantasie. You doe well re∣member, that I sayd, that after that I had spoken to the holy father, who hath so well disciffered that matter, that paraduēture I should haue gained my voiage, without go∣ing vnto him, I feare very much that before that I depart from you, you will cut off all the way, and make it shorter. For I hope through the helpe of God, that we will visite this day all those chambers & infernall habitations with∣out mouing our selues from hence, and before that we de∣part, if that the one and the other of you doe that, where∣of you brag and baunt your selues you will. For you haue promised on euery of your partes, that you will haue re∣course to none other Iudge, but to the pure word of God. And as for mée, if you take it for the Iudge, I am wel con∣tent * 1.12 to take it for my guide: And I am certeine that it will guide mée better, then Cyble guided Aeneas.

Theophilus.

If thou doe not hold thy selfe assured, Da∣uid, who speaketh by experiēce, can certify thée, saying. Thy woord O Lords is a lanterne vnto my féete. That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead, as Virgile did cause Aeneas to bée lead of Syble vn∣to his father Anchises, but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God, thy immortall father, whome by the same thou shalt heare speaks, for to put thée out of all doubt.

Hillarius.

Ther is also an other point, that when we shal haue ended * 1.13 the voiage, we shal not go by y^e gates of dreams, as Aeneas: or as our holy father, whom we haue heard dreame so wel, as all such as hée is doe, which repose & rest themselues in any other bed, then vppon the pure word of God. For it hath such vortue, that whosoeuer resseth vpon it shall ne∣uer dreame nor rane: or if hée dreame, hée goeth not

by the gates of Iuory, but by y^e horne gate, which is cléere * 1.14 & through the which one may sée as with the eyes: in such sort that such dreames are more certeine, then that which others doe sée with their eyes: as it appeareth in those of Ioseph and Daniel. But he that will lye or rest himselfe in any other bed, shall neuer cease to dreame and wander * 1.15 astray out of the waye: And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory, which is thicke as y^e bones are. Wher∣fore one can perceiue nothing by the same, as we doe sée by experience in our Theologians and Sophists whiche are so obscure and darke that one can sée nothing at all. For after y^e they haue well banketed & moisted thēselues w^c that good Theological wine, they haue y^e spirite of wine y^e which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them, & ma∣keth * 1.16 them to enter by the gate of Iuory, that is to saye, betwéene the téeth and chawes, which causeth so many ex∣halations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine, & so many fumes and heates to ascende and mount into the braine, that they do dreame more déeper, then the lowest parte of hell and the seate of Lucifer. Afterwards they re∣furne béeing rauished in their Poetical furor & madnesse, as if they were departed all newly and freshe. But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory, by force of the wing and mouing their chawes and cockscombes, as the Organ bellowes, so doe they go foorth by the very same gate.

Thomas.

Let vs then go in by the other gate, and in such fobrietie, that we may know the things, as though we saw thē w^c our eyes. But who shal begin to declare & shew it vnto vs? mée thinketh y^e Eusebius maketh himself ready. Begin then to knocke, & cause it to be opened vnto vs?

Eusebius.

I will enter first by the olde testament.

Hillarius.

But take good héede you lead vs not awrye, and totake the one for the other: For if thou doe erre and go astray, we will direct and leave thée into it againe.

Eusebius.

[unspec Obiection.] But I will direct and leade you well. * 1.17 Giue eare then vnto that which is written of Iudas Machabens,

who sent to Hierusalem two thousande Dragmas of stl∣uer, for to be offered for a sacrifice for the sinnes of those which were dead. In which place he did well and right. For he had some consideration and pondring of the lyfe that is after this time. For if hee had not thought that those which were slaine did yet liue, it had bene super flu∣ous and vaine to make any vow or sacrifice for them that were dead. But for so much as he saw that they whiche dyed in the fauour and beléefe of God, are in good rest & ioy, he thought it to be good and honorable for a reconci∣ling, to doe the same for those which were slaine, that the offence might be forgiuen. Is it possible to finde a terte more cléerer? Wherfore did Iudas Macchabeus send such a summe of Siluer y^e number of two thousand Dragmas * 1.18 which are worth a thousand and two hundreth Crownes, if wee accompt them after our money, if he had not bene certeine, that the offrings and prayers of the lining did profitte the dead?

Theophilus.

Thou doest here open vnto vs a goodlye field to dispute off, and wil eng••der to vs many questions, the which I will propound vnto thée, and we will declare them at large one after an other, and afterwards we wil iudge in the ende whereto that place can serue you, for to proue Purgatory. I doe then first demaunde of thée in what reputation thou hast that bookes of the Macchabees? * 1.19 and whether thou do holde them for canonicall, or Apo∣cripha?

Eusebius.

I hold it but for such as it is, that is to say, holy, Canonical and allowed of the catholike Church. For is it not conteined in the Bible?

Theopilus

I do not benie but that it is fastened & sowed in betwéene or among the bookes of the Greeke and Latin Bible, but it followeth not therefore that it is Canonical, & of such Authority as the others which we haue receiued of the Hebrews, which alwayes haue bene receiued & al∣lowed of all the catholicke Churche, without any contra∣diction.

Eusebius.

I am not now abashed, though you will not re∣ceiue the authority of the auncient Doctors, sith that you are so shamelesse, that you dare condempne and reiect the very proper bookes of the holy Scripture. I doe know by experience that you must haue a Bible made according or after your owne pleasure. For you are like vnto the aun∣cient heritickes which will not take out of the holy scrip∣tures, but the places whiche they thinke moste méete and proper for to giue colour to their herefies: and do reiect all the other, as vnworthy of the spirite of God. Is not that to great arrogancie, to make the spirite of God, & his word to be subiect vnto your iudgement? Thou mayst wel per∣ceiue Thomas, that now they doe féele themselues muche gréeued, when they are constrayned to refuse the Iudge, vnto whom they haue appealled: and which in stéede to be iudged of him, they would iudge him.

Theophilus.

Stay a while

Eusebius.

Thou hast not yet gotten or obteyned thy sute. Thinke not that wée are become Papistes, sithens that we haue spoken vnto thée: And that we woulde attribute vnto our selues authority, power and iudgment aboue the spirite of God, as he doth: wée doe leaue that office vnto Antechrist, to whom alone it apperteineth. We haue not vsed to reproue one onelye stllable of the holy Scriptures: But if we discerne & put difference betwéene the bookes that are Canonical & those that are Apocripha, thou oughtest not to accuse vs * 1.20 therefore, except thou doe, by that same reason, ren∣der culpable of the like crime the auncient Doctors of the Church, chiefely Sainct Hierome, and in like man∣ner your decrées and Canons: whiche doe seperate those that are Canonicall from those that bée Apo∣crapha, amongst whiche they doe put the bookes of the Machabees.

Eusebius.

I confesse that amonge the Iewes, it hathe not bene receiued for Canonicall in theyr Sinagogue: but it hathe not bene therefore reiected of the Church.

Wherefore I conclude, that those that beny, that they are not canonicall, are not the sonnes of the Church; but ba∣stardes of the Sinagogue.

Hillarius.

Thou hast at the leaste kepte that same of ••ccius, Behold one shot of his Canons.

Theophilus.

If it be so, Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enroul it among the Canonicals, in that prolegne * 1.21 in whiche be hath recited them all in order? doest thou thinke that he would haue rather omitted these here, then the other? And in the prologue that hee calleth Galeatus, which he hath set before the bookes of the Kings, both hee not make expresse mention of those bookes amenge the Apocriphas? and principally of the second out of y^• which the place by thée alleged is taken? For hee saith that hée hath founde the first written in Hebrew: But not the se∣conde, the which hath bene onely written in Greeke. The whiche thing, as he saith, may proue it selfe by the p••rase and manner of the speaking, the which hée vsed. To the which agréeth well that which hee writing against the Pelagians, nameth Ioseph for the author of the historye * 1.22 of the Machabees, vnderstanding that by him it was writ∣ten. Then if by the testimonye and witnes of Sainct Hierome, that history hath bene written by Ioseph, b••ée ought not to estéeme it to be of more greater authority, thē the other bookes of Ioseph, the which we do reade •• no re∣ceiue, * 1.23 as histories, very profitable: But a greate deale wan∣toth, that we should attribute vnto them so much authori∣tie, as vnto those, the whiche we doe knowe without all doubt, to be y^• body of y^• holy Scripture. Therefore said S. Hierome in the Prologne that hee made before the booke of the Prouer••es of Salomon: The Church doth read the bookes of the Machabees, but shee receineth them net a∣mong the Canonical.

Eusebius.

Then wherfore hath Sainct Augustin writ∣ten, * 1.24 that the Church holdeth them as Canonicall?

Theophilus.

Consider well how he hath writen in that same place which thou alledgest, speaking of the number

of the times, which haue bene sithence the returning from Babilon, vntill the comming of Iesus Christe. Did he not write, that the account and number of them, are not found in the holy Scriptures, which are called Canonicall but in the other, among which are the bookes of y^e Machabees? Doest thou not sée and perceiue that he seperateth those bookes from the body of the holy Scriptures.

Eusebius.

Wherfore dost thou cut off fthe tayle? why dost thou not adde, that which followeth afterwardes? The whiche (sayth hée) the Iewes hold not for Canonical, but the Church doth.

Theophilus.

But doth he not adde by and by the rea∣son wherefore, the which serueth to my purpose?

Eusebius.

Hee sayth, that it is bicause of the vehement * 1.25 and merueilous passions of some Martirs, whiche haue fought euen vnto deathe, for the lawe of GOD, before that Iesus Christ came in the fleshe and suffred griefes and horrible torments.

Theophilus.

He vnderstandeth by those Martirs, the seuen brothers of the Machabees, * 1.26 with their mother, who loued rather that Antiochus shoulde dismember and torment them cruelly, then they would obely his commaundements for to violate the law of God. It is easie to vnderstand by those words, that the Church hath not receiued those bookes, in suche authori∣tie, as those which haue bene holden alwaie sin the Pro∣phetical & Apostolical church, nor to be sufficient, for to al∣low & confirme, or for to builde any doctrine, which ought to be holē for an article of faith, & for to vanquish the he∣reticks: But only in such stéede, as we haue at this day the ecclesiastical histories, & legends of martirs: not a heape of foolish & fabulous legends, made by a heape of dreaming * 1.27 and deceiuing Caphards and Moonks, as are the liues of the fathers, the golden legend, and other like, more wor∣thy to be numbred with the Roman of Fierobras, Orson, & Valentine, the erring kinghtes, Mandeuill, or the true narrations of Lutian, and others like, made for pleasure, then among the Ecclesiasticall histories. But they haue

bene in suche reputacion among the wise men, as the bookes of Iosephus, Eusebius, Sozomenus, Theodoritus, Socrates, and such other whiche haue written the Ecclesi∣asticall histories, and the liues of Martyrs, for to keepe the remembraunce in the Churche, as in a Chornicle for to edifie and comforte with good examples: But not that they are of such authoritie, that they are sufficient for to sette foorth anye newe doctrine, of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes in the Apoostlicall doctrine. And that it is euen so as I doe saye, I will not proue it by anye other witnes, then by the same whiche thou bringest foorth a∣gainst mee: That is to saye, Sainct Augustin, who hath written in an other place after this manner, saying: The Iewes haue not the scripture of the Machabees, as the Law, the Prophets and Psalmes, to the which the Lord Iesus rendereth witnes, as vnto this witnesses, saying: All must bee fulfilled whiche are written of mée in the * 1.28 Law of Moses and in the Prophets nad in the Psalmes. But that Scripture is receiued of the Churche, not with∣out profit, if one doe reade and marke it soberly. Doth hée not euidentlye declare by those wordes, howe muche the authoritie of the same is abased in comparison of the others, the whiche Iesus Christe taketh for witnesses? Asmuche maye one gather out of an olde booke, whiche contayneth the exposition of the Créede, and beareth the title of Sainct Cyprian. Hée plainelye sheweth that that booke holdth no palce in the auncient Churche. Where∣fore it is almoste folly to striue and fight so long time, if it were not, but that our aduersaries doe make the poore ignoraunt people beléeue, that it is of the holy Scripture, and that we doe deny it. After that sorte haue bene allo∣wed * 1.29 some bookes, called the Canons o•• the Apostles, the whiche some among the auncients, and among the Popes and counsels haue bene holden some for Canonical, and o∣thers for Apocripha, bicause that they doe serue in many thinges confirmable to the Apostolicall doctirne: but they were not bound vnto them, as vnto the holy Scriptures,

whiche they cannot reiect, as they haue done often times, when they haue found, any Canon, whiche séemeth much to differ from the Apostolicall doctirne. Euen so maye we do of the bookes of the Machabees. We may wel draw out of them examples, for to exhorte the faithfull vnto pa∣clence, constancy and Martirdome, propounding and decla¦ring vnto them the vertue and the faith of that good mo∣ther, with hir seuen sonnes, who stoode so constantlye vnto death, for to mainteine the Lawe of Gode, who had not yet neuerthelesse such an occasion to doe that, as we, whiche haue more sure and certeine witnesses of the re∣surrection and of examples more euident, aswell in Iesus Christ as in his Apostles & dysciples, then they had, And so said S. Augstyne. But it followeth not therfore that * 1.30 touching the doctrine which concerneth the faith and re∣ligion, they should be with equall authority with the o∣thers. And therefore the glose made vpon the decrée recy∣sith them among the Apocripha.

Eusebius.

I woulde gladly that thou wouldest declare vnto mée a litle more plainely, what thou vnderstandest by the Canonicals and Apocripha.

Theophilus.

I doe call canonicall, all the bookes of * 1.31 the new testament the whiche wée haue: and of the doe, in like manner, all those whiche are conteyned in the Hebrwe. Bible, the which we haue receiued of the holy Prophets and true seruaunts of God, and whose au∣thors are certeine and knowen. And we doe cal them Ca∣nonicall, which signifieth asmuch as rules, bicause they are of an infallible veritie, & a certeine & sure rule whiche is giuen vs of god, for to ruel & examine al other doctrine, & to proue the spirites whelter they are of God, and for to liue according to the same.

Eusebius.

And what vnderstandest thou by Apocripha? * 1.32 Theophilus. Apocripha, signifieth a thing hid, secret or ob∣scure, which hath no sure or certein author: or which is not alowed as are y^• bokes, to y^• title is applies & made at, which are not sufferable, but insomuch as their doctrin

is confirmable vnto that of Canonicalls, the which ought to be ruled by them. And they haue no firme autho∣ritie but that which those doe giue vnto it. For in steede that we may take a sure foundation and buylding, vppon any place taken out of the Canonicalls, we cannot doe it in those heere, if they haue not alreadye their foundation on the other. They haue not bene called Apocrypha, bi∣cause that it was not lawfull to haue them in ones lybra∣ry, and to reade them with iudgement, for ones profite. For that was not forbidden. But haue taken that name, bicause that they were not of such authoritie, y^e one should holde them for a sure and infallible doctrine of the church of God: And they were not red and expounded openly in the same, and with such authoritie, as those which with∣out doubt were holden for the certeyne worde of God, to the which we are bounde to beléeue, and to submit & put our iudgement vnder them, not to eleuate it aboue them, or to iudge them by the other bookes, which ought to bée subiect vnto them.

Eusebius.

And wherefore haue some of them more that authoritie then the others?

Theophilus.

Bicause that of the one we are cert eyne, which are the pure wordes of God: but not of the others, but to the contrary.

Eusebius.

By what meanes? Is it not bicause the Churche hath allowed them and not the other. Now sith that their authority dependeth of the authority of y^e church if shee doe receine these here as the Canonicall, & maketh them of equall authoritie, wherefore shall not they bée in the same degree?

Theophilus.

I doe beleeue that thou doest thinke that the church hath accustomed to legittimate the bookes, as * 1.33 the Pope doth legittimate his bastardes. The Popishe church may well take in, hande that, but that is not the propertie of y^e of Iesus Christ. And although she woulde * 1.34 legittimate them, yet they must be takē as bastards legi∣timated by the Pope, which cannot be notwithstanding borne in lawfull maryage, but do abide alwayes bastards

and sonnes of fornication, How can the daughter engen∣der and beget hir Mother, or hir Father. Howe can the * 1.35 Church giue authoritie to the woorde of God, who of the same receyueth hirs, and of the same is begotten and borne? Of whome receiueth the Sunne his brightnesse? Doth hée receiue it of men, whome hee illuminateth and lighteth?

Eusebius.

No. But on the contrary men of it.

Theophilus.

Is it cléere and shining bicause that men doe iudge and confesse it to bée such?

Eusebius.

No. But bicause that it is such, the men that doe sée it, and haue the experience are constrayned to acknowledge and confesse it to bée such.

Theophilus.

Thou meanest not∣withstandinge that the Sunne should bee cleere and giue light, bicause that men doe thincke it to bée so.

Eusebius.

Thou doest mée wrong to impute vnto mée that which I neuer spake, but altogether contrarye.

Theophilus.

Thou hast sayd it, by other wordes. Whereby thou doest not perceiue thy selfe. For when * 1.36 thou saydest, that the holy Scripture taketh hys authori∣tie of the church, thou sayest that men do giue lyght and cléerenesse vnto the Sun. For as Dauid doth wytnesse, the word of the Lord is pure & cléere, that is y^e light which gi∣ueth * 1.37 light vnto the eyes, & giueth wisdome vnto babes. It is then certeyne and true, not bycause the Church iudg∣eth it such, but it iudgeth it such bicause that it is so, and cannot iudge of it otherwyse, no more then he which hath cléere eyes can iudge of the lyght of the Sunne, of whiche the blinde person is not capable. Wherefore hée cannot iudge, no more then the Infidells and repro∣hate can iudge of the woorde of God, nor allowe it. Then thou mayst by this vnderstand, that the certeyne∣tye, veritie and firmenesse doth not depende vppon mans opinion and iudgement, but vppon the holy Ghost, and of the proper force vertue and effectes by which it doth ve∣rifie it selfe, and compelleth the faythfull heartes to al∣low and receiue it as the lyght of the Sunne doth the eies.

For the sheepe doe heare and vnderstand the shepeartes voyce, but not that of the straungers. And all that that the Prophetes haue forshewed and taught, the Apo∣stles in lyke manner, haue bene verified and authory∣sed by the vertue of him which hath spoken in them, in∣somuch that all the worlde cannot resist it. Nowe wée cannot saye she lyke of the bookes of the Machabees, chiefely of the seconde. First, for that it is not founde in the Hebrewe, and that the stile of the same witnesseth * 1.38 cléerely, that it was first made in Greeke, and was not translated frō the Hebrew tongue into the Greeke tongue. We may take it for a certeyne rule, that it hath not belfe written by any Prophet, or man worthy to bee accompted for such a one. For the Prophets haue wrytten in their proper language, to wit, Hebrew, or in the language of the * 1.39 Chaldees, sithence the time of the captinite of Babilon. Furthermore, it is easye to knowe, that that booke hath bene written longe time after the retourne of the people of Israell into Hierusalem, and the age of Esdras, Nehemi∣as, * 1.40 Aggeus, Zachary & Malachy, sithence which, wée do not read, that the people of God haue had any Prophet that hath written any thing: nor other bookes, of a certeyne and autenticke authour. Wherefore by. good ryght, this héere is accompted for Apocrypha. And although there were no other reason, for to diminishe his authoritye, but the excuse whiche the authour of the sayde booke made in the ende of his worke, that ought to suffice thée. Reade the laste Chapter and thou shalte sée it by expe∣rience. If hée had béne certeyne thorowe the spiryte of GOD, that all that whiche hée hath written, procéeded from him, as the Prophetes and Apostles haue done, wherefore shoulde hée excuse himselfe both of the stile, of * 1.41 the manner of writinge and of the faultes that he myght haue committed? If hée had bene alwayes inspired with the same spirite, by which the Prophets and Apostles haue spoken, he would haue spoken surely and in the authority of God, as those who without excusinge themselues haue

sayd: The Lorde hath spoken it. And Sainct Paul with what authoritie speaketh hee affirming that the Gospell whiche hee hath preached was so certeyne, that although * 1.42 an Angell came downe from heauen, for to bringe anye other vnto you, he ought not to bée receiued, but accursed. Learne then Eusebius to discerne the bookes of the holye Scripture, form the others: and thinke not that the church hath holden for Canonicall, that seconde booke of the Machabees, but as a booke which was not altogether to bée reiected, and of which it might serue the Church, for declaration of the Scriptures, bicause of the histories con∣teyned in the same, whiche doe giue a certeine openinge, for the intelligence of the antiquitie, as the histories of Ioseph doe. Yet neuerthelesse if one marke them well, it shall be easle to iudge, that the first and the second are not all of one authour: not onely by the diuersitie of the stile, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 also bicause that in the second, are reiterated some bi∣stories, and many things which already haue bene intrea∣les •••• in the first, and a great deale better then they are in this. If one doe finde in any other booke worthy to bée credited of the olde or newe Testament, any like place vnto that which thou hast alledged, the argument should haue some colour by the shewe that the other would giue vnto it. But forasmuch as it is alone, his witnesse is not sufficient, as it shoulde bée in the one of the others. For God is as much to bée beléeued by one onely witnesse as * 1.43 by a thousand: where a thousand witnesses of men, with∣out the same of God, ought not to bolde any place in the re∣ligion, But sithence, that the superstition of the suffrages & prayers: for the dead hath begunne to haue crept into the Churche, thys booke also hath begunne to take greate authorytie, in suche sorte that it oftener is reade and songe in the Popishe Churche, then those that con∣t••yned more surer doctrine. And thu oughtest also to vn∣derstand, that the auncients haue sometime put a difference betweene y^• Canonical, Apocrypha & Ecclesiasticall bookes, as it appeareth by the authour whiche hath expounded,

the Creede the which some doe thinke that it was Saint Cyprian: other that it was Ruffin. But whosoeuer if were of them both, they are both of them very auncient, and haue deuyded those bookes after that sorte: Yée must know (saith he) that thée be other bokes after the Canoni∣call, which are not called of the auncients & of our prede∣••••••••ors Canonicall, but C••••lessasticall: as are the wisdome of Salomon, and the other wysedome, which is called Iesus the sonne of Syrach, the which booke is among the Latins, by that generall tytle called Ecclessasticus, by the which woorde the author of the booke is not na∣med but the quantie of the Scripture. The booke of To∣by is of the same order, and of Iudith, and the bookes of the Machabees: the which they would that they should bée all read in the Church, but they would not that they should haue bene settle foorth, for to con••••rme the autho∣ritie of the fayth by them. The other Scriptures, they haue called Apocrypha: the which they woulde not that they shoulde be read in the Churche. Thou 〈◊〉〈◊〉 sée héere most playnelye, howe that they doe attribute more authoritie vnto the Canonicall Scriptures then vnto the Eccleslasticall Scriptures: and vnto the Eccless∣astical more then vnto the Apocryph••: but they haue not yet neuerthelesse estéemed those Eccleslassastical (which they haue many times called apocrypha) of equall and such authoritie, as the diuine scriptures: nor they haue cal∣led them Eccleslasticall for that cause, but bicause that they were in such reputation, that one niyght reade and signe them in the Churche (the w•••••••• was not permit∣ted in the auncient Churche) or bicause that theyr an∣tiquitie or holynesse of their authours added vnto them a ••yttle more authoritie then vnto the other.

Thomas.

By that accompte Eusebius then shall bée vnweapened of his principall staffe that hée thought to haue.

Eusebius.

If they would after that sort make the bookes eyther Canonicall or Apocripha at theyre pleasure:

it is méere folly to disputs with them. For all those which bée not to their mindes shall be Apocrypha.

Theophilus.

If thou wilt not be confen••ed with the rea∣sons by me alledged, go and plead against Sainct Hierome * 1.44 and your decrees. If the auncients had not vsed iudgemēt and wisdome, how many bookes would the hereticks haue brought into the Church vnder the name of the Prophets, Apostles and of their Disciples: The which they haue re∣••••csed them, following that same rule, which I haue giuen vnto thée: as it appeareth by your decrees, which are a great rolle of them. But I wil yet do more, to the ende I leaue the•• not an occasion, to be miscontented w^c me. I am content, by way of disputation, to put the case that y^• booke should be autentick & of a diuine authoritie. And although * 1.45 it were so, it would serue thée yet neuerthelesse nothing at all for to proue that there is a Purga••ory, & that we must offer for the dead, to such intent, and in such sort, as you do make it, And for to declare this vnto thée more plainly, I demaund of thée, for to begin first ou•• matter, in what time was that made, which the history conteineth? was it be∣fore the cōming of our Lord Iesus Christ, or afterwards?

Eusebius.

Before.

Theophilus.

Tell me moreouer, was * 1.46 the Purgatorye in that time, such as thou beléeuest it is now?

Eusebius.

There is no doubt of it.

Theophilus.

Sith that it is so, tell mée, what soules went thether? For ey∣ther it must bée altogether emptie and voide, or else it must be that some went thether, eyther those of the elect & faith∣full, or those of the Infidels and reprobate. Now I do not thinke, that thou wilt say, that the Purgatory was for the Infidels and reprobate.

Eusebius.

One may so iudge by that which is written * 1.47 of the wicked rich man.

Theophilus.

Sith then that hell was for the reprobate, it followeth then necessarily, that the soules of the elect shoulde goe into Purgatorye. If it hée so, to what ende serueth the Limbe? For you * 1.48 doe saye, that all the Patriarches, Prophetes and true

faythfull, whiche are departed out of this worlde be∣fore the death and passion of Iesus Christe, were there kepte and deteyned, and they coulde not goe into Pa∣radise, vntyll such time as Iesus Christe had satysfied for them. Wherefore I doe conclude, accordinge to your doctrine, eyther that the Limbe and Purgatorye were all one place and lodginge, or else that the one of them two was voyde and supers••uous: or that there was but one, or for to speake the truth, ney∣ther the one nor the other. For if the Limbe were for to receiue the faythfull that dyed in the fayth of the pro∣myse made vnto Abraham, what néede was there anye more of Purgatorye? bad they not Purgatorye suffy∣cient inough in the Limbes? Were they not sufficient∣lye tormented to bée excluded from Paradise, and de∣pryued from the ioyes thereoff, and from the fruytion of the glorye of GOD, as you doe affirme? For what more greater torment can a faythfull man haue then to bee depryued from suche a good thinge? That is not onely a Purgatorye, but a very hell.

Eusebius.

I do know, that in hearing thée speake, that thou, which wouldest teache others, art yet in greater ig∣noraunce, and that thou vnderstandest verye euyll this matter. The Limbe then, was for those which were in such estate, as those are nowe, which haue finished their penaunce, and haue made entire and whole satisfacti∣on for their sinnes in this world, which doe go strayght waye into Paradyse, sauinge that those there cannot yet enter, bicause that the doore was shutte, vntyll that Iesus Christ came to open it, and to breake the gates of Hell.

Theophilus.

Wherefore was the Purgatorye? Had it in it yet a certeyne other sorte of soules and of an o∣ther condytion, then those which went into the Limbes?

Eusebius.

Yea. For thou mayst well vnderstande, that all the faythfull, which haue procéeded and bene before * 1.49 the comminge of our Lorde Iesus Christe, haue not

all of them bene so holy and so perfect, as the Patriar∣ches and Prophetes. Wherefore it were no reason, that incontinently after they are deade they shoulde receyue as much felicytie as they, wythout they doe first accom∣plishe and ende their penaunce in Purgatorye, and satys∣fie for their sinnes: the which they haue not done in thys world, as the holy Patriarches and Prophets haue done: or otherwyse GOD shoulde not bée iuste. For what reason is it, that hée whiche hath lyued in all viees and sinnes all the time of this lyfe vntyll the laste tyme of hys death, in whiche gée hath had repentaunce of hys sinnes, and hath asked mercye of God, shoulde haue no more gréeuous punishment, but should receiue as great re∣ward, as he which al his life time hath serued God faithful∣ly and hath alwayes lyued in holynesse, righteousnesse and innocencie.

Theophilus.

Take héede thou doe not blaspheme God, and doe imurye vnto his grace and mercye. For I doe greatly feare but that thou wilt bée like vnto the bro∣ther of the prodigall childe, who was enuious against his * 1.50 brother, and murmured against his father, béeing angrye at the gentle receiuing and of the grace and fauour that hee dyd vnto his sonne, whome he had recoured, béeing re∣duced and brought into the right way: or least that thou be one of the companions of thē which were hired to work in y^e vineyard, which did murmure against the good man of the house, bicause y^• he did giue as much wages vnto those whom he called at y^e eleuenth houre, & a little before night, for to work in his vineyard, as vnto those whō hée appoin∣ted from the morning which haue borne the burthen and heate of the day. Wherfore dost thou not accuse our Lord Iesus Christ, who hath aunswered vnto that poore theefe who dyd hange vppon the Crosse ••••yth him: This daye shalt thou bée with mée in Paradise? What good déedes * 1.51 had hée done before? Art thou enuious of the grace which God doth vnto the poore sinners?

Eusebius.

God forbid. But we must vnderstand, that

as God is mercifull, so is hée righteous. And if the théefe which was crucified with Iesus Christ had had that priuiledge, it followeth not therefore, that all haue * 1.52 the lyke, or that they ought to haue it. For as the lawe makers doe say: the priuiledges of a fewe, are not com∣mon lawes to all men.

Theophilus.

If that théefe hath receiued so greate goodnesse by one singular priuiledge, I doe aunswere vn∣to thée further, that none is saued but by priuiledge.

For all wée haue meryted eternall dampnation, of our * 1.53 nature. Inasmuch then as wée be saued, that is, thorow a singular priuiledge, which is giuen of God vnto the elect by Iesus Christ, which is not common vnto the repro∣bate.

Eusebius.

There is yet an other reason, where∣fore that théese went straight into Paradise, wythout passinge by the fire and the paines of Purgatorye: that is, bicause that he had alreadye done his penaunce in * 1.54 this world, and hath satisfied for his sinnes.

Theophilus.

What penaunce or satisfaction coulde hée haue made? For the theftes and murthers for which hée was hanged on the Gybet.

Eusebius.

But it was the paine that hée endured and suffered, and the death that he hath receiued for his demerites.

Theophilus.

As much did his companion suffer which was hanged on the left hande: but yet neuerthelesse his torments haue serued him nothing at all, and hée dyd not heare such promise of Iesus Christ as the other.

Eusebius.

Bicause that hée dyd not take his death and torment quyetly and patientlye, and hath not be∣léeued in Iesus Christe and demaunded pardon of hys sinnes as his companion did.

Theophilus.

Thou alwayes commest vnto my compt, and thou shalt hée compelled to confesse that there is nothinge which was the cause of his saluation but the faith which he had in Iesus Christ, and the mercy of God, * 1.55 which hée hath obteyned by the same, without that that God had regard neither to his dignitie or worthinesse, nor

vnto his workes, but vnto Iesus Christe his sonne, for whose loue he hath pardoned him, not for the forment and death, which the théese hath suffred, and the satisfaction that he could doe vnto him, but for the forment, death and passion which Iesus Christ hath suffred & the satisfaction that he hath made for him, the which Sainct Cyprian hath * 1.56 well vnderstanded, of whom the witnes is alleged by the maister of the sentences. For although all the deathes and forments that all men haue euer suffred, Patriarkes, Prophets and Apostles, Martirs and confessors should be put together, they should not be sufficient, for to put out the least sinne in the world. For God doth not take onlye for satisfaction, the torment, but regardeth the worthynes of the person, of which he receaueth the raunsome, the whiche was not found sufficient, but in Iesus Christ. Or otherwise if the torment which man doth suffer, were ap∣proued and allowed of God for satisfaction, and cause to a∣uoyd the paines of Purgatory, there shoulde bee no men more happier and blessed then the théeues, murtherers, brigandes and other malefactors, which are executed by Iustice. And there would bee, none which would not but become a théese or murtherer, or to cōmit some fault wor thy of death for to be executed thorow Iustice, to auoide y^e paines of Purgatory. For if the doctrine of your diuines be true, y^e fire of Purgatory surmounteth al the paine, that a * 1.57 man can suffer in this life, and it is so hot and burning, that the visible and materiall fire of this world, is but as a painted fire in comparison of that same.

Hillarius.

I cannot vnderstand in what place of the holy * 1.58 scripture they haue séene that, I woulde rather beleeue that they haue learned it of Plutarch, who hath witten, that the dolors and paines of Purgatory are so great and so cruell, that there is asmuche difference betwéene them, and those that wee do suffer in our body, and in the flesh, as there is difference, betwéene that which happeneth vn∣to vs in dreaming, and that which happeneth vnto vs wa∣king: In somuch that all that whiche we doe suffer in this

worlde, is but as a dreame in the respecte of the same. * 1.59 Wherfore if the fable that the Theologians haue reher∣sed of Sainct Gregory be true, I shal not be abashed, that hee had rather choose (when the Aungell did giue vnto him the choyce of two things) to be in paine and sickenes all his life then two daies in Purgatory, bicause that hée prayed for Traianus, and deliuered him from hell. For al∣though that he complained in his Epistles, that hée is so much gréeuid with diseases, and so great dolours, that his life is vnto him nothing but paine, yet neuertheles it is verye casle in comparison to be a quarter of an houre in Purgatory.

Thomas.

To what purpose hath the Angell giuen vnto him to choose one of those two paines? By doing good, ought euill to happen vnto him? Hath hée fetched out Traianus, from hell against Gods will? If our Priestes had such a payment, for to drawe soules out of Purgato∣rye; I belaue that they would not be very much hotte af∣ter their masses.

Hillarius.

It were necessary that sithens they haue be∣gunne the fable, to ende it, for to make it accorde and * 1.60 agrée with that of Theseus and Pyrothus, who as the Poetes do witnes are punished in the hells bicause that they woulde take awaye Proserpina maugre the God Pluto.

Theophilus.

* 1.61 That is yet nothing in comparison to that y^t I haue said. They do kindle that fire more. For they do affirme, that the same of Purgatory, and that of hell is al one, and that there is none other difference, but that the same of hell is eternall touching his office, but the same of Purgatory, is not but as touching his substaunce, bi∣cause that the soules go out some time. Wherefore they do conclude that not onely the paine of Purgatorye is the moste gréenous that euer was, but whiche is more. Tho∣mas of Aquin hath written that that paine excéedeth and surmounteth the dolours & torments which Iesus Christ hath suffred in his death and passion. What blasphemy can

be more greater? For what hell can be more truell then that which Iesus Christe hath suffred for vs, when hee take vpon him the cursse due for our sinnes, for to deliuer vs?

Thomas.

Do they not alledge some place of the holye Scripture, for to proue that?

Hillarius.

* 1.62 Where shal they finde it? their probatien is an example which they do commonly put foorth and pro∣pounde taken out of the chronicles of the Iacobins, of a Frier of that order who appeared vnto a very friende of his, by whom beeing asked of the paines of Purgatorye, aunswered that if all the world and all the visible things were on fire and did burne, yet it could not be compared, to the paine and beate of Purgatorye: bost thou not thinke that the probation is worthy of such Theologians.

Eusebius.

Although that there were no Scripture, & that we had but our naturall sence the which God hath giuen * 1.63 vnto vs, yet wee might well iudge that it is conuenient and necessarie that there be a Purgatorye, in whiche the sinful men may he punished, for those sinnes of which they haue not ended their penaunce. For it is not written with out cause: Nullum malum impunitum: Nullum bonum ir∣renumeratum. That is, ther is none euil which shal not be vnpanished, nor no goodnes which shal not be vnrewarded.

Theophilus.

Although that those wordes are not reryted in the scripture, after that manner as thou doost receyte them, yet neuertheles. I am content to allow it to be true. I doe not deny, but that God is as iust as he is merciful. * 1.64 For otherwise he could not be God. But we ought to con∣sider, by what meanes he doth exercise his iustice & mercie towards vs. There is no doubt, but y^e our sinnes do deserue * 1.65 great punishmēt. And therfore hath he giuē vnto vs Iesus Christ his sonne, & hath deliuered him to death for vs, that our misdéeds should be punished in him, & that he do satis∣fie for vs to his souereigne iustice, for to obteine of him grace & mercy in his name. Thou seest thē y^t there is none * 1.66 euil which is not vnpunished, for to satisfie y^e rightousnes & iustice of god: but ther is differēce in y^e māner of punishing

For•••• he that hath b••ne the euil beleeueth in Iesus Christ, and hath full hope and trust that thorow his death & pas∣sion he hath obtayned of God pardon and remission of his sinnes, thorow that saith, he is the true member of Iesus * 1.67 Christ, and adopted for the sonne of God. If hee bee a true member of Iesus Christ, and a true childe of God, hée & his sinnes are punished in Iesus Christe, who for that cense, hath borne the iudgement and tursse of God, for all the elect. But if the sinner bee an Infidell, and whiche hath no parte with Iesus Christ, the wrath of God falleth * 1.68 vppon him and he cannot escape the Iudgement of God, but that his sinne be punished in himselfe, in hell fire. And euen as our euill deedes are punished in Iesus Christ, so are our good déedes rewarded in him, and by him allowed * 1.69 of the celestiall Father, which crowneth his good works in vs. For nothing pleaseth him but Iesus Christ his welbeloued sonne, in whom he deliteth, and no workes * 1.70 can be found agréeable, but his. For there is no goodnesse but in him. Wherefore if we will haue any good thing in vs, we must séeke •• borrow it of him. And if we will that our works be pleasing vnto God, it is necessary that Ie∣sus Christ do them in vs thorow his holy spirite: or other∣wise, the heauenly father cannot allow nor receiue them for good, nor yet giue vnto them reward.

Eusebius.

[unspec Obiection.] I doe greately doubt, that in magnifiyng so much the grace and mercy of God, and the efficacie of the death and passion of Iesus Christe, you giue occasion vn∣to many to doe euill, without euer caring to do any good workes: For if that men haue once this opinion, that they are saued thorow the onelye grace and mercye of God, and that they cannot merite paradise by their good works, what néede they care to do any good déedes if it doth not serue them no more then the euill?

Theophilus.

I do feare moreouer, that the doctrin which thou holdest, doth induce and leade them vnto that which * 1.71 thou sayest For how many hath there bene, who hauing that opinion to satisfie in Purgatorye for their sinnes,

haue giuen themselues vnto al vices, during their life, ho∣ping that they will prouide so well to their affaires, that for golde and siluer, they shalbe incontinentlye deliuered from the paines of Purgatory after they be dead? And so by that meanes they did thinke, that it was not néedefull to studye to doe good workes. For they did hope to finde in their purse all that that shoulde bée néedefull for theyr saluation. But for asmuche as it is a question touchinge * 1.72 good workes, whom doest thou thinke can doe them best, eyther the seruant which laboreth thorow feare and com∣pulsion, who would doe no laboure if he feared not to be beaten of his master, or if hée hoped not but to receiue a good rewarde: or the sonne, who thorow an entier loue to∣wards his father, and taketh pleasure in none other thing, but to serue and honoure him wel, bicause of the natural loue that he beareth vnto him, and of the knowledge that he hath of the great goodnes and benefits that he hath re∣••••ed and doth receiue daily of him, without any seruile feare, but onelye for the reuerence and good affection that he hath towards him?

Eusebius.

There is no doubt, that those whiche serue onely for feare to be punished, or for hope of rewarde, can∣not serue faithfully nor lawfully: but are as the seruaunts which serue to please the eye, and do good seruice whilest * 1.73 that the master is present: notwithstanding they haue no good will towards him.

Theophilus.

Yet neuertheles those which do follow the * 1.74 doctrine, the which thou holdest, are altogether like vnto those here. For either they do giue themselues altogether to their pleasures and delites, hoping that they will sa∣tisfie by money for their sinnes, and redéeme themselues? or if they studie to doé well, they doe it not but thorow feare, as a subiect doth serue a Tyraunt, fearing ••o fall in∣to his hands: or as Merconaries & Hirelings, not for the loue they haue to god, but for the loue they haue to them∣selues. And so by that meanes, eyther they do make GOD * 1.75 like vnto a cruel Tyraunt, or to a polling Iudge & théefe,

who for money absolueth the euill doers, and as a compa∣nion of théeues, taketh his parte of the hootie with them: or els they make themselus god, & doe worship the workes of their handes, sith that by them they do saue themselues, and merite Paradise. Wherefore they haue no néede of Iesus Christ. I demaund of thee, which art but a sinful man, if thou wouldst take for a true friend a man which should do vnto thée seruice only for y^• feare that he hath of thée, least thou shouldest do vnto him hurt? or for hope that he should haue to feare thée better, wout which hee would make none accompt of thée, nor would not set by thée? Eu∣sebius. I would holde him for a true freind of the kitchin, * 1.76 which loueth more his belly thē me, of whō he is a friend, & not of me.

Theophilus.

And yet neuertheles, if thou dost wel consider the nature of the Hipocrits, & Pharises, who do attribute somuch vnto their workes, thou shouldest finde them of such an amitye towardes God, for whose loue they doe not that they do, but for the loue of thē¦selues: and doe not serue god, but after y^• manner as the beastes do serue men, or for the feare that they haue to be beaten, or for the nurrishment and foode that they doe re∣ceiue. But without staying our selues anye longer vppon that pointe, let vs returne vnto our talke of the Limbe: sith that thou puttest the Limbe for the one, and Purga∣tory for the other, what difference dost thou put betweene those which were in the Limbe, and those which were in Purgatory, sith that the one and the other, according to your doctrine, were depriued of the fruition of God? I doe greatly feare, that in the ende thy Limbe and Purgato∣rie will become hell For if the holy fathers, aswell Pa∣triarkes as Prophets, were depriued from such a goodnes, wherein did they differ from the dampned & And in like * 1.77 manner those whom thou ledgest in Purgatorye, what néed haue they of any more greater tormēt, or of any other fire, for to torment them? And what solace can they haue more then y^• damned, if they were depriued frō y^• loves of Paradise. and yet besides that, to bee deteined in the fire?

Hillarius. But at that time, for that there was no Masse nor papistical Priests, for to pray and do sacrifices for the dead they should continue a long time in those paines & torments. And which is more, sith that in that time, none could enter in Paradise, when they had accomplished the time of their paines in Purgatorye, whether went they, when they departed from thence? They could not but de∣parte from one hell, for to go into an other, that is to say, from purgatory to the Limbe: where they were compelled to abide alwayes locked fast, in the prisons of Purgatory, vntill the comming of Iesus Christ.

Theophilus.

For to speake the truth, I finde no great difference, betweene hell and those other two lodgings.

Eusebius.

But there is great difference. For these here do hope to come once vnto the eternall felicitie, from y^• which the dampned are altogether depriued.

Theophilus.

There is then none other difference, but that the one are defeined and kept in hell, and dampned for euer: the others are not but for a time. And so your Limbe, and Purgatory shal be in nothing different from the hell of the Origenistes and Catabaptistes, who were * 1.78 in this foolish and false opinion, that there is neither man nor diuell dampned perpetually, but that all those whiche are deteyned in hell, after a long space of time, shalbe de∣liuered, & finally all saued.

Thomas.

Now bare they say y^•, sith y^• the holy scripture witnesseth so euidentlye, that the * 1.79 paines of hel are eternall & y^• our lord Iesus Christ called y^• hel fire, eternall & inextinguible?

Theophilus.

What o∣ther reasons haue y^• heriticks, for to fight against y^• veritie thē their humain opiniōs? or some place of y^• holy scripture, depraued & corrupted by their false vnderstanding? They haue no building or foūdatiō but y^• it is easie to ouerthrow. But we haue not now to dispute against those olde Ori∣genistes, which are raysed vp againe of y^• Catabaptistes, y^• which are already vāquished ynough, but we haue to work against the papistes, whō by good right we may cōpare vn¦to those, & cal thē new Origenistes aswel as y^• Catabaptists

There is no difference, but that the Catabaptistes are not so much couered and disguised, and that they do rayse vp againe too openly the olde errors and heresies, y^e which are taken all readye for condempned. But the Papistes haue found an other maske, and an other manner to pro∣céede, by which Sathan in them, hath founde the meanes to redresse and amende that bell of the Origenistes, in dys∣guising onely a little the building after an other sort. For when all shalbe well considered, I knowe not wherein those whom you lodge in the Limbe and Purgatory doe differ, from those whom y^e Origenistes and Catabaptistes did hold and accompt for dampned: except you will saye, that the paine and hell of the one, continueth more then of the other.

Eusebius.

There is a great deale more. For notwithstan∣ding that al were tormented, yet neuertheles those which were in the Limbe, were a great deale lesse, then those which were deteyned in Purgatory. For there is no fire in the Limbe, and they haue none other paine, sauing that they cannot yet sée the face of God and haue the full ioy & * 1.80 fruition of Paradise, the whiche they doe farye for, much desiring it: which was vnto them a great torment, as vn∣to euery one which tarieth for the goodnesse that he desi∣reth, and cannot haue it so soone as he would. In like man∣ner those which were in Purgatorye, and are yet at this * 1.81 present, do not suffer so gréeuous torments without com∣parison, as the dampned that are deteined in hell fire: But they haue yet neuerthelesse more fire then those whiche were in the Limbe.

Theophilus.

Thou shalt be yet compelled to come vnto my sayings. For what other thing may I conclude, by thy wordes, but that there is three helles, betwéene whiche thrée is no difference, but that the one os more cruel then * 1.82 the other, as the torments & prisons of the Tyrants are. For Theologians do affirme that there is two sortes of * 1.83 paines in Purgatory, to wit, the paine of Dam, and the paine of the sence. By the payne of Dam, they vnder∣stand

the dammage and hurt that the soules doe receiue for the long tarying and let that they haue, to sée the face of God, and to bée in possession of the ioyes of Paradise. By the paine of the sence, they vnderstand the tormentes which the soules doe féele of the fire by the which they are punished. Now iudge, what difference can be. First, what more greater paine can the dampned haue then this héere? Sith that your Doctors do affirme that the fire of * 1.84 hell, and of Purgatory, is all one, as to his substaunce, and that after the daye of the last iudgement, Purgatorye shall bee mingled with Hell, and they shalbe but one selfe thing? Thou canst not heere finde any other difference, sa∣uing that Purgatorye is not a perpetuall hell, neyther an eternall hell fire, but that it hath a certeine ende: and that the Limbe is a halfe Hell. For there is but the paine of Dam, sith that there is no fire. The which yet neuer∣thelesse your Doctors ds affirme to be so great that it sur∣mounteth all the paines of the world. And for to proue it, they alledge Sainct Augustine, saying. To be an estraun∣ger from the kingdome of God, depriued from the swéet∣nesse of God, is a paine so great, that ther are no torments that may be compared vnto them. And Chrisostome saith: Many are afrayde of the Bell fire, but I estéeme a paine a great deale greater then the hell fire, tha fall from that glorye. Thou doest then see, whether I doe wronge to call the Limbe, Hell. But ther is yet a difference betwéene * 1.85 the paines of the auncient fathers, which were deteyned and kept in the Limbe, and the children that are borne dead. For that halfe hell, after your doctrine, is vnto them eternall: the which it was not vnto the auncient fathers. But the better to declare and shewe foorth that matter. I * 1.86 demaund of thée what thou thinckest the bosome of Abra∣ham to be, in which Lazarus rested? I do not now dispute, whether the example that our Lord propounded of the rich man & of Lazarus, is alledged as a true history, or as a pa∣rable. For whatsoeuer it bée, Iesus Christ by the same, de∣clareth & sheweth vnto vs the estate and condition of the

elect & reprobate, after this mortal life, & declareth father vnto vs that which we ought to hold & beléeue. He maketh * 1.87 mention but of two places onely, that is to say, of hel fire, in which the rich man was tormented, & of Abrahams bo∣some, in which Lazarus was receiued. He putteth not foorth a third place: In like manner when he did send foorth his Apostles to preach, he plainly declared y^e ther was but two wayes, the broad way which leadeth to destruction, and she narrow way which leadeth vnto life, saying: He that belée∣ueth * 1.88 and is baptised, shall be saued: But he that beléeueth not, shalbe dampned, Wherefore I would gladly know of thée, what thou vnderstandest by Abrahams bosome: And whether thou doest take it for Purgatory or for the Lim∣be. For thou canst not vnderstand it of hell, nor of any place that is nigh vnto it: sith that Abraham aunswered the rich man, that there is a great space set betwéene those that are in Abrahams bosome, and those which are in hell * 1.89 with the rich man, that it is impossible y^e one can neither go nor come from the one of y^e places to the other.

Eusebius.

By Abrahams bosome I vnderstand the place, in which were receiued y^e Patriarches, Prophets & other holy men which dyed in the faith of Abraham, y^e father of the belée∣uers, * 1.90 & in the hope of saluation & benediction y^e they ought to receiue by Iesus Christ our Lord, the true séede of the blessing promised vnto Abraham.

Theophilus.

Then thou doest then take it for the Limbe. For Limbus in the Latin * 1.91 tongue, signifieth the hem or gard of a gowne or of any o∣ther garment.

Hillarius.

Yea, in déed, whosoeuer wil beléeue the witnes of al good Latin authors, as Virgile and other * 1.92 like, which often times do vse it, and not in any other sig∣nification. But peraduenture the papistical Theologians would héere vse their accustomed licence, which is to per∣uert * 1.93 & marre all tongues and languages: giuing vnto them an other sence a signification, & to make a new one, as the Iargon of the beggers & Ostirians which none vnderstan∣deth * 1.94 but themselues.

Theophilus.

It must néedes be so: or els that they dooe

take the word of Limbe by a Metaphore, comparison and stmilitude, for extermitie: as farre as I can iudge, as well I by thy words, before alledged and allowed, as by those of you Theologians. For in disputing of those internal ha∣bitatiōs, they confesse by their bookes, that it is vncertein, which is néerest vnto hell, either the Limbe or Purga∣tory. As touching the Limbe of the fathers, they affirme assuredly, that in the time when it was, it was situated in a place more higher. And as touching that of the children, they say, that after the latter iudgement, it shall bée in the earth a little aboue the same: and hell shalbe in the bottom: and Purgatory shall be then all one with hell.

Hillarius.

I would gladly knows what meatinges and measurings they vse in those lowe territories, & whether they doe measure the landes & countryes, by cubites, elles, rodes, miles and other lyke measures, such as the Geo∣metrians and Astronomers haue. At the leastwise they are more skilfull in such Arte then euer they were. For they doe measure the regions and countries, which yet are not. But for a ful resolution, we can conclude none other thing by their Geomitry and discription, but that purgatory and the Limbe are the confins, or the suburbes either of hel, or of Paradise.

Theophilus.

If y^e Limbe of the fathers were * 1.95 one of the suburbes of hell, it must bée y^t the citie should be a great way off from the suburbes. For Abraham cléerely witnesseth that there is such a distaunce, from his bosome, the which thou taketh for the Limbe, vnto hell in which the rich man was, that it is impossible to passe from y^e one to the other, bicause of the horrible goulfe and depth which is betwéene them both.

Hillarius.

Peraduenture wée may deceiue our selues. For how doest thou know, whe∣ther they do pronounce Limbe, for Lembe. For Lembe in * 1.96 Greeke and Latine signifieth a little ship and very swift: or a gally. Wherefore it may be, that they do meane, that the auncient fathers, were detained & kept in that Lembe as in a ship, as Noe was in his Arke, to the end they should not fall into that déepe lake of Hell, and be drowned in

the goulfe of those deepe riuers, of which we haue spoken off so much. For all their ease goeth by poetical faynings. * 1.97 But howsoeuer they will take it. I dare proue it by the olde men of our countrey, that it is most lykest to be true that the Limbe, at the least the same of the poung chil∣dren, ought rather to be in the suburbes of Paradise, then of hell. For they doe bolde for certeyne, that the younge children, which for wanting of exterior and out∣ward baptisme, are sent vnto the Limbe, hearing from thence where they are, the ioyes of Paradise, but they cannot sée them: the which is vnto them a meruaylous torment. Neuerthelesse the good olde men woulde not haue spoken so assuredly, if they had not heard it so prea∣ched of the great Theologians and Doctors. Nowe si∣thence that from the Limbe, the young children do heare the ioyes of Paradise, reasō declareth vnto vs that y^e Lim∣be ought not to be farre off from paradise, but that it may haue only some wal, or a certein vayle betwéene them both which may hinder and let their sight, either that they do make a great noyse in paradise: or else that the eares of the soules are merueylously sharpe and attentius.

Eusebius.

Sith that the Doctors doe say that it is situated & builded in a place more higher, I doubt not but that it approcheth nigh vnto Paradise.

Hillarius.

In stéede then y^• Virgile placeth the Limbe of the young children at the entering in to hel, thou wilt make it at the entering in of Paradise. * 1.98

Theophilus.

Sith that wée doe alreadye esloyne and make our selues so farre from Hell, I doe greatly feare, that in the ende thy Limbe and thy Purgatorye will not be sounds in Paradise. And therefore I demaund of thée againe, to knows whether that the bosome of Abraham be a place of voluptuousnes and pleasure,. or of sorrowfulnes & horror. And whether y^• the yoūg children of y^• Hebrews * 1.99 & Iewes, which died before y^• viii. day, which was deterni∣ned & appointed for to circumcise thē, did go into y^• bosome of Abraham w^c the patriarches? either into Purgatory: or into hell, or whether they had an other Limbe a varie.

Eusebius.

Thou doest propound vnto mée many questi∣ons together, to the which I cannot answere according to the order which thou hast kept in propounding them. For I will beginne with the latter, afterwardes I wyll de∣scend vnto the others. As touchinge that which thou de∣maundest of the saluation of the young Infantes of the Hebrewes, I doe aunswere as the Master of the senten∣tes, euen so as of the children of the Christians, which dy∣ed before baptisme.

Theophilus.

Thou wilt then say, that they doe perish, * 1.100 both the one and the other? For the master of the senten∣ces vseth this proper worde, saying: that it is most true that they perish. If they doe perish, they are then damp∣ned: the which I am sure thou wilt not confesse. For you doe put a difference betwéene the dampned and them. Yet neuerthelesse you holde them not for the children of God. And therefore you denye vnto them to bée buryed in the Churchyard. And therefore that opinion of the master of the sentences hath séemed to the other scholastical Doctors too rigorous, which do witnesse that they holde it not com∣monly * 1.101 in that place, but they take it for an error, the which they haue adioyned with the others which they haue hea∣ped vp together from their bookes.

Eusebius.

If he did vn∣derstand and meane that they went into Hell, I wyll not followe his sentencs. But I beléeue that he meaneth that they go no other where but to the Limbe.

Theophilus.

But was that Limbe whether they went, the very same, in which the Patriarches were shut in, or whether they had a chamber seperated from their lodging?

Eusebius.

I beléeue that the young children haue their Limbe seperated from the others: or otherwise they should haue had no more paine then the others which haue bene circumcised: sith that they cannot yet enter into Paradise, but are all stayed in the Limbe.

Thomas.

I thinke, that you do not kepe the promise which you haue made neither on the one side nor on the other, & that you abide not with∣in the circuit & field, the which you haue determined for

your Ioustes. For you are bounde to flight by the onelye authoritie of the worde of God. And yet neuerthelesse, it is alredy a good while, that I haue heard any thing of you but the opinions of the Doctors. Wherfore I would glad∣ly (Eusebius) that you would follow that matter, and I desire that thou wouldest proue by the holy Scriptures that which thou affirmest of the yoūg children dead with∣out circumcision & baptisme.

Eusebius.

Doest thou thinke that I speake without the Scripture? the which I wil not yet alledge with my gloses and expositions: But for to giue more weight and credite vnto my probations, I would thou shouldest beare the witnesse of them by the mouth of the auncient Doctors, namely, of the worshipful Beda, speaking after this manner. Hée which now cryeth * 1.102 terribly & healthfully by his Gopell: except a man be borne of water & the holy spirite, he cannot enter into the king∣dome of God. The very same he cryed by his lawe: the soule of him whose foreskinne of his flesh is not circumci∣fed, * 1.103 shal perish from his people: bicause he hath broken my testament. Beholde a cléere probation, as wel for the chil∣dren of the Iewes, as for those of the Christians.

Theophilus.

How vnderstandest thou that threatning against those which were not circumcised? For God hath prefired eight dayes, for to circumcise the young children. Nowe if they doe dye before the eight day, and the terme prescribed of God, doest thou thinke that the saluation of those children be in daunger?

Eusebius.

The word of God excepteth neither little nor great, but speaketh generally to all men.

Theophilus.

But there could haue bene no fault, but in the transgressiō of the cōmaundement of God. Sith then that God had determined for them y^e viij. day, wherefore ought the young children to perish, which died before that terme? For sith that God had lymitted the day. I doubte not but that those who should haue circumcised them be∣fore the day prefired should do contrary vnto the cōmaun∣dement of God.

Eusebius.

I accorde vnto thée therein, in

those which should haue done that without necessitie, and * 1.104 without the daunger of the death of the young childe. But I beléeue, that when there should haue bene any daunger they might circumeise them before that terme.

Theophilus.

And I beléeue the contrary. For I can proue my reason by the Scripture, the which thou canst not doo thine. If it were so then as y^• sayst, it should follow y^• god was not well aduised, when he made that ordinaunce, and that the Isralites shoulde be wiser by right: and that hée should doe great wrong vnto them, sith that he hath not aduertised them of that doing, and that he gaue none ex∣ception. It followeth in lyke manner. if the circumcision had bene so necessary vnto saluation, that all the woemen children and woemen should perish, fith that they dyed all without circumcision: the which yet neuerthelesse no man dareth to affirme, sith that there hath bene so many holy women, of whom the holy Scripture beareth vs witnes.

Eusebius.

It is easie to reproue thy consequence. For in the institution of the circumcision, it is spoken expressely of the males, not of the females.

Theophilus.

The law yet neuerthelesse sayth, euery soule, euery person. Where∣fore if we must take the wordes by rigor, without a fitte interpretation, wée must comprehend the females, if there had bene none other places, which doe giue vnto vs the intelligence & vnderstanding of the lawe: besides that the institution of the same doth sufficiently declare, that it extendeth not vnto the women. Thē if the womē be exempt, bicause that the lawe bindeth them not, so are the Infants which dye before the eight day. For they are not bound by the law before y^e terme: or otherwise, God would not haue held his peace, sooner then of ther thinges which were not of so great importance. But when the eight day was come, I doubt not, that if thorow contempning, negligence and dispising, the circumcision had bene omitted, but y^• the Lord * 1.105 would haue bene greatlye offended: not by reason of the signe, but thorowe the rebellion and dispisinge of his woorde, the which hee taketh in greate displeasure:

as he hath shewed the example of him that gathered sticks on the sabboth day. It seemed that y^• fault was not great, * 1.106 nor such as though he had committed a murther. And yet neuertheles god punished him w^t a cruel death, as though he had cōmitted the greatest crime in the world. It is then an other thing to haue omitted any ceremony cōmanded of God, thorow negligence, dispising & rebellion, or to haue left it vndone, thorow necessitie, or bicause that it was not possible. For when there is let, such that man cannot a∣uoyde * 1.107 it, and that this minde and will was good, and hath trauayled as much as hée can for to execute it. I doe not beléene y^t god imputeth the fault vnto him vnto whom hée was not bounde. For the saluation of men consist∣eth in the alliaunce which the Lord hath made with vs, by the which doth the small and greate are receiued and ioyned together in the company and fellowshippe of the people of God. We doe not denye, but that that alliaunce is signed and sealed by the sacramēts, and that the baptis∣me is but the signe and seals among the Christians, as the circumcision was amonge the Iewes. But it followeth not therefore that it is firme and certeine inough without that signe and seale. Wherfore there is no doubt, but that those which do shut vp the kingdome of heauen vnto the infants for want and lack of the signe, do vnto them great wrong, and do béely the promises of God, which by them haue pronounced them to be his, before y^• they were borne, saying: that he is our God and the God of our children. And therfore those which do make that outward baptisme * 1.108 so necessary vnto saluation, what other thing do they make of it but a witchcraft and Magical enchauntments, attribu∣ting vnto the material & corruptible elements that which apperteineth vnto the only vertue of God, & wherto serueth it? Wherefore we may wel know the error and ignorance of the scholastical doctors, which haue iudged that baptis∣me * 1.109 necessary vnto saluation. For which cause they haue also permitted and establyshed, that the woemen might and ought to baptise in tyme of necessitie.

But the auncient Patriarches an holy Prophetes were not in that superstition: and were not ignoraunt of the vertue and efficacie of gods promise and allyaunce, nor of the reasons by mée alledged: or otherwise the Israelites should haue greatly fayled, and chiefely Moses, which was the Prophet and conductor of the people of God, to * 1.110 haue dwelled at the least, the space of fourty yeres, sithens the departing from Aegypt, vntil the entring into the land of Chanaan, without circumcising y^• children. Yet it is to be beléeued, that during that time, many dyed, without be∣ing circumcysed: and although none had dyed, did it not séeme rightly, that Moses, and all the other Israelites did against the ordinance of god: sith that they executed it not at the day appointed?

Thomas.

Is it true that they haue abode so long time without circumcising the children?

Theophilus.

If they had bene circumcised, it shoulde not haue bene written, that Iosua caused them to bee cir∣camcised, after y^• they were entred into the land of Chana∣an. * 1.111 But by that example those holy men do shew vnto vs, how we ought to vnderstand the matter of the exterior sacraments. For notwithstanding that it is written of the * 1.112 circumcision: This is mine alliaunce with your generati∣ons by an euerlasting ordinaunce: and that the bay of the giuing and receiuing hath bene limitted, yet neuerthelesse they haue well vnderstanded, that that sacrament was a publike ceremony, for to witnesse the allyaunce of God betwóene that people, and in the Iewish Churche, as the * 1.113 Pascal Lambe and their other sacraments. Wherfore when they had iuste and lawfull lette, and that they had not the time, and place, and other things requisit to theyr ceremonies, they haue made it no great cōscience to omit them, & did not thinke that therby their saluation should be in daunger, for that they dyd knowe that it came not thorow their negligence and dispising of God. As they had * 1.114 then the females saued thorow fayth, and the spiritual and interior circumcision, without carnal and exterior circum∣cision,

euen so did they y^• males, knowing y^• they were cōprised in y^• aliance of God, by the which, of his pure grace & mercie, he graunteth saluatiō vnto his elect: y^• which he giueth through his holie spirite, as it pleaseth him, aswel w^t out sacraments as w^t sacraments as it appeareth in Cor∣nelius & those which were in his house, which haue recei∣ued y^• holie Ghost before they were baptised of S. Peter. * 1.115 But yet they neuerthelesse did not dispise the exteriour •• outward baptisme, although y^• they were alreadie baptised by y^• holy Ghost For y^• man should be verie proud, which * 1.116 would dispise y^• baptisme ordeyned by Iesus Christ, sith y^• he himselfe, which is y^• holy of y^• holyest, who alone can sanctifie the sinners, & baptise with the holy Ghost & with fire, did not dispise the same of S. Iohn Baptist. But if the * 1.117 elect, aswel little as great, which haue ben among y^• Gen∣tiles * 1.118 & Panims, haue bene saued without exteriour cir∣cumcision, as it appeareth in y^• Niniuites, Nahaman, Iob, Nabuchodonosor & other like, which haue had knowledg of God, & haue had their recourse vnto his mercie, where∣fore shal y^• same priuiledge be denyed vnto those that be hath, not only elected through his eternall election, belō∣ging vnto all his seruants, but also he hath giuen vnto them y^• witnesse by the exteriour sacraments, if they had such lettes & excuses, & as reasonable as the Gentiles and Panyms could haue? For why were not the elect which were among y^• Panims accused, in being not circumcised, but bicause that they were not in the land of Israel, nor in the visible church, & among y^• people which he had chosen, vnto whom he cōmaunded such things. If they had bene among the Israelites, and that they might haue commu∣nicated with them, it had bene requisite to be circum••••∣sed, and to vse the same sacraments. But when they were in a place, in which they had not that exteriour mym••re, nor could not haue it, the Lorde was conten∣ted with the meanes that it pleased him to giue vnto thé. Now if such necessitie happened vnto the Israelites, I doubt not, but that the obli••ation of the lawe hath ceased,

when the causes, for which it was giuen are ceased: and the spirituall circumcision of the heart, suffiecth for it selfe & for the exterior, & the spirituall sacrifices, for the mate∣rial. For whē they were in y^• wildernes, & that they must be readie euery day to remoue their host & houshold stuffe euery houre, when God commaunded them they did well Iudge, y^• God woulde not y^• they should be murtherers of their young children, whom they could not circumcise, but y^• they would be very sick & in daunger of drath, if they had not had time & place to looke well vnto them, as we may presume, by the Sichemytes, who were so sicke after * 1.119 their circumcision, y^• they could not defende themselues a∣gainst y^• two sonnes of Iacob. And therfore Moyses hath well considered, y^• the circumcision was made for man & * 1.120 not man for y^• circumcision, as he writeth of y^• sabboth. And also y^• the people were not in place, where they might haue their church garnished & bewtified as it ought to be. Then if y^• Iewes, which had such expresse commaundement had verie wel such dispensation & exception, shall we put the Christians & their young children in worse conditiō then y^• Iewes? I cannot marueil too much, of y^• question which y^• Theologians made, to wit, whether we ought to accōpt * 1.121 & take an Infant to be baptised, which for want of water should be cast into a well, in pronouncing the sacramen∣tall words, which apperteine to the substaūce & forme of the sacrament? Upon which many Canonists & Theolo∣gians answered y^• he was: & said y^• the same hath ben some times done. Although y^• there are other of diuerse opini∣ons, & which do not take such an Infant for to be bapti∣sed. Hillar. If I were y^• Iudge in y^• cause, I would con∣demne to death, as an homicide, him y^• should so cast away & kil y^• infant.

Theophilus.

We may wel know by such questions & theological resolutions, of what spirit the do∣ctrine which thou mainteinest Euseb. proceedeth, y^• which putteth such necessitie in the exterior baptisme, that those which doe vpholde and followe it, are constray∣ned, euen to murther the Infauntes: or at the least,

they are in doubt and perplexitie, eyther to kill them or drowne them after that sort, or to suffer thē to die, doub∣ting that they are lost and reiected of God. I am much a∣bashed, how God is become more cruell in this time of grace and mercy, towards the children of the Christians, after the manifestation of Iesus Christ his sonne, then he * 1.122 hath bene towards the children of the Iewes, before his comming.

Eusebius.

What is hée, that saith that God is more cruell towards the children of the Christiane, then towards the children of the Iewes?

Theophilus.

Thou, and those which doe follow the doc∣trine which thou vpholdest & mayntainest. It is most true, that you doe not speake it openly, but your doctrine impor∣teth no lesse. For what rigor should God doe, against the little Infants of the Christians, if for want of being w••tte with a little water, they were depriued eternally from the Ioyes of Paradise? I haue alredy sufficiently proued, that the children of the Iewes, were not bound vnto suche ne∣cessitie: although that the commaundement of the circum∣cision giueth an expresse terme, the which is not in the bap∣tisme: wherein then ought the children of the Christians to be more culpable, then those of the Iewes? If it hath pleased god, to send vnto the mother, any aduersitie, or sick∣nesse, whiche was the cause that shée hath brought foorth hir child before hir ful time, what fault can be in the child? and what consolation doth your doctrine bring vnto the poore mother, being alreadie sufficiently scourged and af∣flicted of the hand of God, to make hir beleeue that hir childe is condempned vnto perpetuall exile, and banished from Paradise for euer? And that hee is detayned in the Limbe, in the which without ceasing hee curseth Father and mother? At the least wyse the Carhards haue preached and perswaded them so.

Thomas.

Yea; I haue heard them preach more ouer: that is to say, that it were better that a Towne, a Ceuntry, or a kingdome were drowned, then an Infaunt shoulde

dye without baptisme.

Theophilus.

If the Infant did come vnto the age of discretion, and that hee despisoth the bap∣tisme, I would not excuse his infidelitie and rebellion. Or if the father & mother, thorough their negligence, dispising & infidelitie, haue made none accompt to baptise their child, I would not also excuse them, but that they should yeld them selues greatly culpable before God, & worthy of greeuous punishment. But I will not, yet neuerthelesse therefore, iudge rashely of the saluation of the childe. For GOD * 1.123 knoweth those that are his. And man hath not power to danipue, him whome God woulde haue saued. And if it hath not pleased God to shewe that grace and fauour vnto the Father and Mother, that they cannot sée their childe aliue, for to offer and present him vnto him and to his Churche by the baptisme, wherefore shall hée vse such furor towards that poore Infant and the Parents, which are already ynough desolate and without comfort? What iniury doe you vnto Iesus Christe? These Infants borne dead shoulde not haue great occasion to blesse his comming, nor to sing with those which haue receiued him, when he entred into Hierusalem: Blessed be the sonne * 1.124 of Dauid, which commeth in the name of the Lord. They should haue hadde more iust occasion to cursse and detest him, sith that in steede to amende their condition, hée hath put them in worfe estate then the Iewes were before his comming: You cannot denye that absurditie and incon∣uenience, if you will mainteine your doctrine truely, the which declareth it selfe altogether contrary, to the doc∣trine of the gospell, full of all consolation, in stéede of which your doctrine bringeth but desolation and despaire. Hilla∣rius. I can speake by experience. For I haue knowen ho∣ly wo••men, walking in true simplicitie of heart and great feare of God, which were so troubled in their conscience, bicause that such inconueniences happened vnto them, and that they were so perswaded, that with much a doe, one could sinde any meanes to comfort them and set their con∣scyence at rest and in quiet: what soeuer things 〈◊〉〈◊〉

say vnto them. Although that one tolde and affirmed vn∣to them, that our Lady of Lausanne shewed grace vnto the Infant, and that those which were present did wit∣nesse vnto them of the goodly myracle that she had done in rayāng to life the Infant for to baptise it being dead, af∣terwardes did put him in the graue, yet neuerthelesse all that coulde not assure them: and they coulde not be at rest in their conscience, vntill such time as thorough the preaching of the Gospell, they were deliuered from those false oppinions of Caphards and deuillishe doc∣trines.

Theophilus.

That is that which sathan and the false prophets do desire, the consciences shoulde be troubled & desolate: for then gaine they most. They haue of mē that they desire: & their fishing is best in troubled water. Euse∣bius. Thou hast concluded that according to our doctrine it should followe, that Iesus Christ shoulde haue impai∣red the estate of the Christians. But wherein? For those of the Iewes shal no more enter into Paradise, then those here.

Theophilus.

If they went into Abrahams bosome, by the which thou vnderstandest the Lymbe, there was no more greater punishment for them, then for the others which were circumcysed: sith that all doe goe thither in∣differently: as I haue sufficiently shewed vnto thee. Af∣terwards those which then were in the Lymbe, hoped to be deliuered, the which is denied vnto the poore children of the Christians. Wherefore it should followe, that Ie∣sus Christ shoulde rather come for to showe and bring vnto them the wrath and iudgement of God, then his grace and mercy. Furthermore, those which were in A∣brahams bosome, were not without hauing some taste * 1.125 and perticipation of the Ioyes of Paradyse: as it appea∣reth plainely, by the wordes of Abraham, answering vn∣to the rich man after this manner: Thou hast had plea∣sure in this worlde. Wherefore thou must howe suffer, * 1.126 and that the chaunce be tourned. And contrariwise Laza∣rus

hath suffered greate tribulations and iniseryes. Wherefore nowe it is meete that hée bee at rest and ioy. Thou canst not denye but that these wordes are true. If they bée true, thou art constrayned to confesse, that in Abrahames bosome is consolation, rest and ioy. And howe can these thinges be, out of the kingdome of GOD, * 1.127 which is righteousuesse, peace, and ioye in the holye Ghost?

Eusebius.

I haue not agréed to thée that the children of the Iewes, being deade without Circumsition, should go vnto the Lymbe of the fathers, but into another.

Theo∣philus.

It behoueth then to forge Lymbes. But where is the witnesse of the Scripture, for to prooue the same? And do the children of the Christians go straight way vnto the Lymbe of the auncient fathers?

Eusebius:

No.

Hillarius.

Then there is presently a chamber to heyre.

Theophilus.

Doest thou not knowe into what dreams and foolishnesse that doctrine doth leade you? Truely I am ashamed. Wherefore I pray thée, that thou do holde thy selfe content with that that I haue aunswered vnto thée: and that nowe thou do come vnto the questi∣on which I haue propounded vnto thee, to wit, what dif∣ference thou puttest betwéene the bosome of Abraham and Paradise?

Eusebius.

I do not meane to passe thy question with∣out aunswering vnto it. But thou lettest slippe the prin∣cipall obiection which I haue made vnto thee, without hauing satisfyed mee therein. [unspec Obiection] Wherefore I would haue the resolution before thou doest escape mée. Howe may wée then vnderstande that which Iesus Christ hath said? Except that a man be borne a newe of water and of the * 1.128 Spirite, he cannot enter into the kingdome of GOD. Doth he not by those wordes openly declare, that the baptisme of the water is necessarie vnto saluation? And * 1.129 that he which shall not be baptised with water, cannot enter into she kingdome of heauen.

For he hath not onely sayde: hee that shalbe borne a newe of the Spirite, but he hath also added, the water, for to declare that the one and the other are requisit. I con∣fess•• that the water without the spirit suffiseth net: and that the vis••••l•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉, without faith, cannot saue. For it is first sayd•••••••• th•••• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 afterwards there is added, and is baptised shall bee saued. But I cannot vnderstand, * 1.130 but that the baptisme of the water is in like manner ne∣cessarie vnto saluation. Or I know not to what ende Ie∣sus Christe pr••tended by those wordes, that hee hath aun∣swered vnto 〈◊〉〈◊〉.

Theophilus.

Before we do passe any farther, note d••••y∣gently, that notwithstanding that Iesus Christ hath sayed: * 1.131 He that beléeueth and shalbe baptised shalbe saued. Yet neuerthelesse in the contrary proposition which followeth he hath not re••terated the baptisme. He hath not saide: he that beléeueth not and shall not be baptised, shalbe con∣dempned: But hath made only mention of the faith and of the beléeuing, shewing that without the same, none can be deliuered from condemnation: the which he hath not af∣firmed of the baptisme. And yet neuerthelesse he speaketh there of the outward and visible baptisme: And not only of the same of the young children, but of the ••lde and greate ones, vnto whom the apostles were sent for to preach the Gospell. Now iudge, if Iesus Christ hath not required the visible baptisme of the greate ones, as necessary vnto sal∣uation, how wil he require it of the young children? I will geue none occasyon vnto any man, by my wordes, to des∣pyse the Sacraments. For thou knowest already what sentence I haue giuen against those that do despise it. But I do••••eane an•• sa•• that if any good man were, eyther a∣mong the Turkes, or among the Idolaters and Infidels, which had knowledge of the gospel & true faith in Iesus Christ, and that it was not possible for him to bee baptised, I cannot beléeue, that he should be dampned for lacke of a little water: sith that he hath the principall, to witte, the faith: or otherwise, the water shoulde haue more vertue &

efficacie, then the bloud of Iesus Christ or at the least as much. And the Priest which administreth the baptisme, should haue as much power as Iesus Christ himselfe. For it should follow, that euen as the water, or the Minister in like manner, can do nothing without the spirit & bloud of Iesus Christ, that Iesus Christes spirit also, nor his bloud could doe any thing without the water and the Minister. And so Iesus Christ and his espirit should be as much sub∣iect vnto the Minister and the water, as the water and the Minister vnto them: And so consequently, his grace & mer∣cy shall be bound vnto the corruptible elements & subiect * 1.132 vnto men. After that manner Iesus Christ should bée no more a true God, nor a true Sauiour. And so it is easy to iudge, that such doctrine procéedeth not of God, sith that it ••••pugneth euidently the grace of God: the iustification of faith, and the annalogy of the sa••ie, and bo•••••• ouerturne al∣together the mistery of y^• redeption made by Iesus Christ: The which thing, not onely the auncient Doctors, but also * 1.133 the Scholasticals and Questionaries haue wel perceiued, namely the master of the sentences, which proueth by good * 1.134 reasons, and by the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the Church, that some are iustified & saued without baptisme, amongest whom saint Augustine comprehendeth all those which are dead, and haue suffered martyrdome for the con∣••••••••ion of Iesus Christ. In like manner the authoritie of Cyprian is sette foorth by the master of the sentences, by the which he witnesseth, that the saith, the repen∣••aunce and conuers••on of the heart doth recompence and suffice for baptisme vnto those that haue not the time, nor place for to receiue it, & they doe call it baptisme of 〈◊〉〈◊〉. And for confirmation of this, he ioyneth to the example of the thée••e which was crucified next to Iesus: the which saith he was not crucified for the name of Christ, but for his demerits and wicked déedes: And he did not suffer bi∣cause ••e beléued, but in suffering he beléeued. It is then declared in that thee••e how much sayth a••ayleth, with∣out the Sacrament of visible baptisme: The which

the Apostle sayth: The beléefe of the heart iustifieth, and * 1.135 to knowledge with the mouth maketh a man safe. But then hée doth accomplish it inuisibly, when the necessitye shutteth vp and hideth the Sacrament of baptisme, not the dispisinge of the religion. Hee may haue some kinde of baptisme, where he shall not haue couersion of y^• heart. And the conuersion of the heart maye bée in some, with∣out hauing receiued baptisme: But it cannot be ther where baptisme is dispised: and we must not in no wise call that conuersion of the heart vnto God, when the sacrament of * 1.136 God is dispised. Be holde the witnesse, the whiche vppon that matter Gratian alledgeth in his booke of decretalls, and the master of the sentences, taken of Cyprian, & ad∣deth the same of Saint Ambrose, touching the Emperour Valenti••ian, who dyed without baptisme, of whō he saith: * 1.137 I haue lost him whom I ought to haue regenerated. But yet neuerthelesse hée hath not lost the grace, the which hée required. Now if we ought to haue such confidence and trust of the health and saluation of the great and olde men which coulde not haue the baptisme, by a more stronger reason we ought to haue it of the young Infants. For if they be of Gods elect, it is in his power to baptise them in their mothers belly by his holy spirit, & to sanctifie them, as it is written of Iacob, of ••eremy, Sainct Iohn Baptist, * 1.138 & of Saint Paul, Eusebius. How can we then absolue the proposition of Iesus Christ? For it is generall, and exclu∣siue without excepting any person.

Theophilus.

As much may I say of that that he hath said of his flesh and of his bloud, speaking in this manner: verely, verely I say vnto * 1.139 you, except ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud, ye shall not haue life in you. Doth not that pro∣position counteruail•• as much, as if he had sayd: whosoeuer shall not eate my flesh and drinke my bloud, shall not haue eternall life? none can denie the same. It followeth then, that all the younge children are dampned and all those which doe not cōmunicate in the Sacrament of the supper: if the Popish doctrine bée true, that Iesus Christ

is really in the hoast, and that wée must there eate hys flesh and drinke his bloude, after the manner as they haue taught vs. It shall not be then no lesse necessary to keepe the consecrated hoastes, and of the Gods in the boxe, for to communicate to the little children, & to giue vnto them the Sacrament of the Euchariste, as the same of baptisme. For the wordes of Iesus Christ doe vrge no lesse in the one of the places then in the other. And if thou doo thinke, that there is great difference; I wil shew vnto thée easely, that many among the auncients, haue perceiued & iudged it to be so as I say: or otherwise, in y^e time of Charlemaine they woulde not haue kept the Eucharistia, for to giue it vnto y^e little children, when they were sicke, if they had not esteemed the thing very necessary. Yet neuerthelesse it is written in the booke of Ansegisus, Abbot of Liege, that the * 1.140 same was done in that time there, and reciteth the canon which was made. But yet at this day that errour con∣tinueth among the Bohemians and Morauians, the which * 1.141 yet neuerthelesse the Papists themselues doe not allow: no more then that which S. Cyprian & Origene did, which did distribute the supper vnto young children, when their fa∣thers * 1.142 and mothers brought them in their armes, in com∣ming to communicate the same. And they gaue vnto them not onely the breade, but also the cup. Now let vs thinke if already such errors were about the sacraments in that time there, what may chaunce afterwards. For Cyprian reigned about the yeare after the death and passion of Ie∣sus Christ two hundreth and fiftie. Those worthy men would not haue so much attributed vnto the Sacraments, if they had not so much taken to the rigor and to the let∣ter the words of Iesus Christ. Of the like beginning came vp the error of those which estéemed & thought y^e he, which after y^t he was baptised, & hauing once receiued y^e supper, could neuer be damned, or at the least, should be once dely∣uered from damnation, bicause that Iesus Christ hath said: I am that liuing bread that came downe from heauen: if * 1.143 anyman eate of this bread, hée shall liue for euer.

They vrge vpon the letter, & said that Iesus Christ could not lye, which hath promised the same. Yet neuertheles Sainct Augustine rebuketh & confuteth their errour. Be∣holde * 1.144 y^• absurdities into which men do fall for fault of wel examining the Scriptures, & when they doe take them ac∣cording to the rigor of the letter. For whosoeuer wil, ac∣cording to the opinion which the Papistes haue of the Sa∣crament of the alter, take litterally y^• which Iesus Christ said of eating of his flesh & drinking his bloud, there is no doubt, but that we shall be constrayned to confesse, that all those which haue once taken the supper, are all saued: and y^• all those which shall not once receiue it, are all damned. And so it shalbe no lesse requisite to giue y^• supper vnto the young childrē & to giue power vnto womē to giue it them, then y^• baptisme: they y^• would take the words & those mat¦ters by y^• rigor. And therfore for to retourne to the place by thée alledged, by the absurdities which should follow of thy expositiō, the which do repugne against the grace of Iesus Christ, as I haue declared vnto thee, thou maist wel know, that we must not vnderstand that place after that manner, as thou doest expounde it. For Iesus Christ speaketh not in that place there of visible baptisme, nor of his instituti∣on: * 1.145 But speaketh of the regeneration of man: and shew∣eth what thing he must haue for to be a Christian, to wit, that it is necessary, that he doe renounce & forsake his first generation & natiuitie, which is altogether corrupted and cursed, and that he be regenerated by the spirit of God, and * 1.146 thorowe the incorruptible séede of his woorde, insomuch that he is made a newe creature, bearinge the Image of Iesus Christ, the true celestiall Adam, euen as hée hath borne that of the olde and terrestriall Adam. And there∣fore * 1.147 hath hée sayd: Except a man be borne from aboue or a new, be cannot sée the kingdome of God. And after he ex∣poundeth it by the other proposition following, which sig∣nifieth none other thing, then that which hée hath alrea∣dy sayd before. For to be borne from aboue, or to bée * 1.148 borne againe, and to be borne of water and the holy Ghost,

are equiualent manners of speakings: And the two propo∣sitions of Iesus Christ, are equipolent y^• one to the other: & ther is none other difference, sauing that y^• last is more am∣ple, and expoundeth the first. For sith that our first natiui∣tie is carnal, it must be y^• the second be spirituall. Sith that * 1.149 the first man is of the earth earthly, it is requisite, that the second, which is from heauen, be heauenly and spirituall. Now that regeneration & transformation cannot be made, but by the spirite of God. For as it is written in that same place: That which is borne of the flesh, is flesh. That that * 1.150 is borne of the spirit, is spirit. And therefore Iesus Christ willing to expoūd vnto Nicodemus y^• which he had said be∣fore: Except y^• a man be borne frō aboue or a new, he can∣not see the kingdome of God: Afterwardes saith: which shall not bée borne of water and the holy Ghost: bicause that the holy Ghost, author of that regeneration, is giuen from aboue: which worketh a secōd natiuitie in vs, which is celestiall and spirituall.

Eusebius.

But what néeded it to adde the water? was it not sufficient to name the holy Ghost.

Theophilus.

Wherefore hath Iohn Baptist sayd, spea∣king * 1.151 of the ministry of Iesus Christ: That he would bap∣tise with the holye Ghoste and with fire: what néeded it, sith that he named the holy Ghost, to adde vnto it the fire? Shall it be therefore necessary to constitute a baptisme of the fire, as some do say, that some Christians which are a∣mongst y^• Indians, Aethiopians & Persians do, who for that * 1.152 cause did vse the fire for baptisme of the fire?

Eusebius.

One may well perceiue there, that Sainct Iohn taketh the fire by a Metaphore: and that he vnderstandeth no other thing by the fire, then the holy Ghost, of whom he hath al∣ready spokē the better to expound the nature of the same: for as the fire, is pure & cleane, and cannot suffer any spot * 1.153 or filth, but purgeth, maketh cleane, & illuminateth the con∣sciences, & enflameth them to the loue of God. For which cause, he was sent vnto y^• Apostles in y^• liknes of tongues * 1.154 of fire: the which S. Iohn did foresée & forespeak off, vsing

such wordes.

Theophilus.

Thy exposition doth please me very much. Wherefore if thou makest it no difficultie, to take in that place the fire, for the spirit of God & for more ample expositiō of his nature & properties, wherfore ough∣test thou to make a doubt to take y^• water in that place for that same signification, séeing y^• agréeing y^• the water hath with the nature of y^• holy Ghost? For there is no lesse rea∣son: but a great deale more appearance. For Sainct Iohn putteth the holy Ghost first, & the fire afterwards. Wher∣fore it séemeth, either that he vnderstandeth two thinges seperated: or that he expoundeth the thing more cléere, by a more darker thing: Although that thy aunswere doth suf∣ficiently satisfye that obiection. But in that place Iesus Christ putteth y^• water first: & afterwards, as if hée would * 1.155 expound his Metaphore and comparison, and giue vnto it more greater brightnesse, he declareth what he would sig∣nifie by that water: to wit, the holy Ghost: vnto whom he giueth that name for many causes. First, bicause that as the fire is an element meruailous pure and cleane, and so necessary vnto mans life, that it is impossible for men to lack it, so is it of y^• water: the which is also by nature cléere, pure and cleane and very proper for to represent the same of the holy Ghost. For it washeth, purifieth, cleanseth and refresheth the hearts and consciences, for to comfort them, and to make them bring foorth fruite pleasing vnto God: in such sort that the water causeth the earth to fructifie & renoweth and maketh it fertile, & washeth away the filthi∣nesse * 1.156 from the body. It quencheth and putteth out in lyke manner the fire and heate of wicked carnall concupiscen∣ces, as the water quencheth out the fire: and quēcheth the thirst and alteration of the poore féebled soules, & refresheth them for euer. The seconde cause is, that hée would haue opened vnto vs the intelligence and vnderstanding of ce∣remonies, baptismes and purifycations conteyned in the law of Moses & of y^• prophets in like manner, by which the holy ghost was promised, chiefly by Esay & Ezechiel: vnto * 1.157 whom he maketh allusion & hath had the regard thervnto.

Therefore he would expound them vnto vs, and giue vs to vnderstand, that those waters promised of God, did sig∣nifie none other thing, thē the aboūdance of the holy ghost, which ought to be shed foorth vpon all flesh, as a riuer and a floud of water, whiche watereth and ouerfloweth all the earth. The which Sainct Peter witnesseth to haue bene * 1.158 accomplished both in him and in the other Disciples of Iesus Christ, the day of Pentecost, according to y^• prophe∣cie of Ioel. And therefore Iesus Christ, would as well in * 1.159 that place, as in speaking vnto the Samaritane, and bidding those which were in the temple to come drinke of those li∣uing * 1.160 waters, vse those manners of speakings: And for to declare vnto vs in like manner, to what ende he hath insti∣tuted the signe of the water, in the baptisme. And that it is true, I doe take Sainct Iohn for a witnesse: who expoun∣ding the words of his Master, saith: that he vnderstandeth by those waters, y^• holy Ghost y^• which the beléeuers ought to receiue. Thirdly, by that forme of figured speaking, be teacheth vs in like manner, what the Christian man ought to bée, that is, regenerated by the holy Ghost, setting foorth the water and the winde, which are bodyes more subtill, thinner, cléerer, & purer then the earth, which is an elemēt more weightier, vnpurer, thicker and materyall. These wordes then doe signifie as much as if hée had sayde, that in stéede of that weightie, earthlye, carnall and cor∣ruptible man, wée must be regenerated into a newe man, heauenlye, spirituall and perfect: as much differing from this héere whiche is earthly and fallinge, as the water and the winde doe differ from the earth: And it must be that the same is done by the holy Ghost which is the true water, which maketh that purification in vs.

Eusebius.

Thy exposition is not without a fayre shew. But ought I therefore the sooner to receyue it, then the same of the auncient Doctours, who in that place by the water, haue vnderstanded the baptisme whiche is giuen by the water: and chiefely Saincte Iohn Chri∣sostome.

Theophilus.

I am well content, to magnifie with the aun∣cients * 1.161 the Sacraments, as much as shall be possible: So that thou wilt vnderstande them so as they themselues would they should be vnderstanded. For although that I would receiue the exposition of Chrisostome, it followeth not therefore, that by the same one may conclude, the ele∣ment of the water to be so necessary vnto saluation, that without the same, man cannot obteine it. For wée must consider, that when the scripture & the auncient Doctors do speake of the sacraments, they haue not regarde onely * 1.162 to the outward signe, but do staye themselues principally vpon the thing signified by them, the which they doe vn∣derstand properly. And therefore following their intelly∣gence, we may expounde those wordes after that sence, as if Iesus Christ did say: hée which shall not wash away his sinnes, which shall not receiue truely the holy Ghost, and which shall not be receiued into my Church, and into my flocke, after the manner as I haue ordeyned that hée shoulde doe by the baptisme, shall not enter into the king∣dome of God. It followeth not therefore, that he which shall haue héere all the thinges comprised and signified by the baptisme, ought to bée reiected and forsaken of God, if he lacke but the water. But yet the better to con∣tent thée, I will declare vnto thée euidently, that not one∣ly the auncient Doctors, but also the scholasticalles and questionaries, doe confirme my sentence. For the master of the sentences, hauing moued the same question which * 1.163 thou hast propoūded, touching those words of Iesus christ, aunswered that the same place ought to be vnderstanded, of those which may be baptised, and doe make none accompt * 1.164 of it: or that one may thus expound it: he which shall not be regenerate of the water & the holy Ghost, y^• is to say, of that regeneration which is made by the water & the holy Ghost shall not be saued. Now y^• regeneration cannot be made onely by the baptisme, but also thorow penance and by the bloud. Behold the very wordes of the master of the sentences who vnderstandeth by the bloud, the same of the

Martyrs, which is shed for the witnesse of the truth. For your owne doctours perceiuing the absurdities & incon∣ueniences which would followe if one would vnderstand that place of Iesus Christ of the exterior baptisme, and to * 1.165 take it rig••rously haue béene compelled to say, that there shoulde be three sortes of baptisme, that is to saye, of the * 1.166 water: of the holy Ghost: and of bloud: by the whiche diuision, they doe confesse openly, that there is an other kinde of baptisme, then the same of the water, by the which man may be saued. There is the baptisme of the holy Ghost and of faith, which may be without the same of the water. Vpon which the maister of the sentences * 1.167 alledgeth Augustine, saying: Thou doest demaund which is greatest, either faith, or the water? I doubt not but that thou wilt aunswere vnto mée, that it is the faith. If then that which is least can sanctifie, shal not that which is greater do it better, to wit, the faith, of which Iesus * 1.168 Christ hath said: he that beléeueth on mée, yea though he were dead, yet shall he liue.

Eusebius.

* 1.169 S. Augustine neuerthelesse concludeth of the words of Iesus Christ, that none can come vnto eter∣nall life, without the sacrament of baptisme: but those which do shead their bloud for the trueth, in the Church. But which is more, he sayth: we do not beléeue that a∣ny Cathecumenian hath eternall life, although that he shall dye in good workes, if he be not baptised or marty∣red. You do well knowe that in the auncient Church, those which had receiued the Gospell, and were not yet baptised, were called Cathecumenes, bicause that one * 1.170 had instructed them in the faith. And following that same matter, he saith more ouer. We beléeue that there is no way of saluation but for those that are baptised.

Theo∣philus.

I beleeue that thou art not ignorant, how your * 1.171 owne doctours, do answere to that place: Among which Holcot repugneth Saint Augustine, saying: that his ex∣ception is not sufficient, and that the man which know∣eth Iesus Christ, may be saued without baptisme, by an

other meanes then by martyrdome. But which is more, he affirmeth, that the man which beléeueth himselfe to be perfectly baptised, & yet neuerthelesse is not, shalbe out of all daunger of dampnation: and saith that that saith shoulde s••rue hun to saluation, although that it were builded vpon a falsitie. But what is he among vs, which is perfectly assured whether he be baptised or no. Howe can we knowe it, but by the witnesse of an other? There∣fore the ma••ster of the sentences aunswereth, vppon the ob••••ctions made by thée, that we must vnderstande the wordes of saint Augustine, according to the declaration that he hath giuen in other places, in which he entreateth that matter more amplie: And therefore saith he, we must vnderstande those thinges, of those which haue had * 1.172 the time and leasure for to be baptised, & haue not done it. For if any hauing faith and charitie woulde be bapti∣sed, * 1.173 and cannot, being ouertaken with necessitie, the be∣nignitie & liberalitie of y^• most puissant God, recompen∣seth * 1.174 y^• which wanted in the sacrament. For when he may pay, if he do not pay, he abideth bound: But when he can∣not and yet neuertheles he is willing to do it, God which hath not tyed his power vnto the sacraments, imputeth it not vnto him.

I haue alledged vnto thée the very wordes euen as they be written in the booke of the maister of the senten∣ces which yet proueth by saint Augustine, that the inuisible sactification, hath béene in some, and hath pro∣fited * 1.175 them without the visible sacramentes, saying after this manner: the visible sanctification, the which is done by the visible sacrament, may be without the inuisible: but it cannot profite. Yet we must not neuerthelesse con∣temne and dispise the visible sacrament. For the contem∣ner of the same, cannot be sactified inuisib••••e. And not∣withstanding that Holcot alloweth that which others haue written of the baptisme of bloude, he declareth yet neuerthelesse sufficiently ynough, that he which without * 1.176 being baptised sheddeth his bleude, for the name of Ie∣sus

Christ, is not baptised by that bloude which hath béene shed: But that the Church holdeth him for bapti∣sed, bicause that by the same, he hath sufficiently wit∣nessed, that he hath not dispised baptisme, but that he woulde willingly receiue it, if it had béene possible for him: Sith that he hath shewed such faith in the Gospell of Iesus Christ.

Eusebius.

I graunt that thou saiest, as touching men of age, vnto whome the faith and repentaunce doe recompence the want of baptisme. But of young infantes it is otherwise. For sith that there is neither ••aith nor repentance in them, they cannot be saued with∣out baptisme. Therefore saith the maister of the senten∣ces, that those which dye without baptisme, yea though * 1.177 one bring them to bee baptised, shalbee dampned: and doth proue it by saint Augustine, saying: holde this for a suertie and doubt nothing at all of it, that not onely men hauing already reason, but also the young in∣fants, which begin to liue in their mothers belly, and doe there die, without the sacrament of holy baptisme which is giuen in the name of the father, the sonne, and the holy ghost: or those which without the same doe passe out of this worlde after that they are borne, shal∣be punished with eternall fire. For although that they haue not had sinne by theyr proper acte and woorke, yet they haue neuerthelesse drawen vnto them by their conception and natiuitie, the dampnation of originall * 1.178 sinne.

Theophilus.

Thou hast nowe beaten downe the Lymbe of the young infants. For if the wordes of Saint Augustine be true, according to the sence whiche thou giuest vnto them, the little infantes dying with∣out baptisme, are all dampned and punished in eternall ••re. They are then in hell. Wherefore it is not nowe néede to forge and make for them a Lymbe. By that meanes all the doctrine of your doctours is here ouer∣throwne. And therefore they haue not all allowed that

sentence, but haue iudged it too rigorous and cruell, in such sort, that some, for that cause, haue called S. Augu∣stine, the hangman of the young In••ants: notwithstan∣ding * 1.179 that he is well worthie that they doe speake of him more reucrently. For I do not thinke, that he himselfe would that these wordes shoulde be taken after such r••∣gour and extremitie. And therefore it is néede to consider the occasions which might haue moued him to write af∣ter that sort. For if the necessitie and the impossibilitie excuseth the great ones, wherefore shall the little ones ••e lesse excusable, which haue yet more excuse, then the great ones may haue? For when they dye being young, or in their mothers bellie, or out of it, what fault then was in them, that they were not baptised? hath God concei∣ued more greater hatred against them then against the great ones? although the baptisme of the water shoulde be asmuch necessarie vnto saluation, as you do make it, if there be any exception for the ene, by what right & rea∣son may it be denyed vnto the others, when the cause & the excuses are equall? But we ought to consider, that in the t••••e of Saint Augustine there might be a great sort of people, which had not the Sacraments in such e∣stimation and reuerence as they ought to haue, (as wée * 1.180 haue proued it in our time) in which some haue so much attributed vnto it, that they haue made of the visible signes a Iesus Christ, and an Idole. The others to the contrarie do holde them as signes, without vertue and ef∣ficacie, no more then the signes which the souldiours do beare, for to shewe what Prince they do serue.

Hillarius.

But haue we not had Anabaptistes, which would baptise them selues againe, and haue co••demned * 1.181 the baptisme of young Infants, willing to deferre it vn∣till they should come vnto the age of discretion?

Theophilus.

Let vs not doubt, that from the time of Saint Augustine, but that there be many founde, more negligent, then they ought to he, touching the sacramēts: the which thing hath cōpelled the aun••ients to magnifie

them so much. And therefore those which are come af∣ter them, not considering the causes wherefore they did y^e same, haue taken the wordes rawly, without a fit inter∣pretation, and without taking beede to their manner of speaking rethorically and figuratiuely, which hath beene the cause that they haue made Idols, as though the ver∣tue of Iesus Christ, and of the Christian religion were in those visible signes. Wée cannot deny, but that in the time of those good auncient fathers, many after that they had knowen the Gospell, tarryed not long time to cause * 1.182 themselues to be baptised: yea, often times vntill the latter end of their life. Nowe they did the same, some through negligence others, bicause of the opinion that they had, that thorough the baptisme, all the sinnes that might be in man, were defaced and put out. For that rea∣son they tarryed as long as they could, for to depart out of this world more purer and cleane from their sinnes. But which is worse, some vnder that hope, did take the grea∣ter holdnesse to sinne. Whome Chrisostome rebuketh, shewing vnto them, that peraduenture God wil not giue * 1.183 them the grace, to haue space to be baptised, if they did tarrie vntill the houre of their death, and if they did abuse so the baptisme, as he hath séene that it hath happened vnto many, who thorough that vaine hope & trust, haue béene deceiued. In like manner also hath Basill the great made a sermon expressing that matter and rebuketh very sharpely those which do so. Euen as then the greate and old ones haue delayed their baptisme, it is not to be doub∣ted, but that for these same reasons, they haue done the like towardes their children. And therefore we must not be abashed, if saint Augustine hath written and spoken after such sort of baptisme, for to correct such faultes, negligences and opinions, and the better to incytate and stirre vp the Christians to giue their indeuours in that, as well for them as for their little children. For that * 1.184 cause it was auncyently established in the Church, that they shoulde baptise twise in a yeare. That is to say, at

Easter and at Whits••••tyde •• although that the baptisme * 1.185 was permitted at all t••••e in case of 〈◊〉〈◊〉. There was yet an other reason, which ••ight haue giuen 〈◊〉〈◊〉 vn∣to saint Augustine to speake so. He did sée and pe••ce••ue that many 〈◊〉〈◊〉 infected with the here••••e of the Pelagians * 1.186 which did not attribute much vnto the grace of God, and did 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 at all originall 〈◊〉〈◊〉, but did greatly mag••••fie the vertues and strengthes of men. ••or which caus•• they had not the baptisme in grea••e estima∣tion.

And therefore woulde ••aint Augustine declare the nature of originall sinne, and induce men to giue and * 1.187 beare more greater honour vnto the sacramentes. Then the better for to manifest the same, he declareth howe the young infants which haue not yet committed any a••tuall sinne, are not yet neuerthelesse without sinne worthy of death and eternall dampnation, bicause of their corrupt nature which they haue drawen, as from a right inhe∣ritance and proper heritage, of their fathers and mo∣thers in their conception and natiuitie. For they haue béene conceiued and borne in sinne and in••quitie: and * 1.188 can be none others, then such as the sinnefull beginning, from which they are come. For that whiche is borne of the ••••esh, is flesh: And a wolfe cannot ingender but * 1.189 a young Woolfe: a Serpent a young Serpent. And e∣uen as wée doe not leaue off or cease to hate a young Woolfe, although that he hath not yet eaten any shéepe, or a Serpent, notwithstanding that he hath not yet cast forth his venym, but do iudge him worthie of death, bi∣cause of the peruerse nature that is in them: so ought we to estéeme, and thinke that God hath no lesse occasion to hate and condempne vs, euen from our mothers bel∣lie, bicause of our per••ersitie and naturall malyce engen∣dred with vs. And though he shoulde dampne vs eter∣nally, he shoulde doe vs no wrong, but onely that which our nature meriteth and deserueth. For although that the young infant hath not yet done any worke, which

wée may Iudge to be euill and wicked, sith that he hath not yet the vnderstanding, discretion nor the power to doe it, it followeth not therefore, but that the peruersi∣tie and malyce, which is naturall in man, hath alrea∣die his roote in him, as one part of his paternall in••eri∣ta••nce, the which cannot please God. For although that it bringeth not yet forth hir fruites, yet they doe remaine still there, as in their roote, which will bring them forth in his time: As the venym is alreadie in a Serpent, al∣though that he bite not: and the nature of a Woolfe, in a young Woolfe, howe innocent so euer he seemeth to b••••.

But from whence doe the fruites of the fleshe pro∣céede, and the sinnes which man committeth, when hée is of age, but of that vicious roote, of that originall sinne, and corrupt nature? Then Saint Augustine did no wronge, to aggrauate that natural corruption, and to say that the infant, from his mothers belly is culpable of e∣〈◊〉〈◊〉 fire, not onely the men that are of age, if they do dye without baptisme: if he doe vnderstande by the baptisme the grace and mercie of GOD which by the same is represented and communicated vnto the electe: As I thinke verely, that he did chiefely vnderstande it.

For if he woulde take it by the rigour, for the exteri∣our baptisme, and the materiall ceremony, I cannot nor may not agrée with him: sith that hée ••lledgeth not sufficient witnesses of the holy scriptures, for so proue that proposition so rigorous and so repugnant vnto the b••untie and grace of GOD, as wee haue alreadie suf∣ficiently declared: But I estéeme and iudge rather, that hée vnderstandeth by the baptisme made in the name of the Father, the Sonn••and of the holye Ghost, the ver∣tue and efficacie and the thing figured by the exteriour Baptisme, whiche is the true signe and witnesse of him, whiche is spirituall and interiour, as the signe and exteriour ceremonye, by the which yet neuerthe∣lesse, hée signifieth and comprehendeth all the vertue

of the baptisme of Iesus Christ, after the manner, as the holy scripture hath accustomed to vse. For in the same * 1.190 the signe & the figure are oftentimes taken for the thing signed and figured, comprehending the whole for parte bicause that the scripture addresseth it vnto the faithfull, which do not receiue the sacraments in vaine, and with∣out a spirituall meaning: Therefore the Apostle saith: All ye that are baptised haue put on Christ. And yet ne∣uerthelesse, Symon the Magitian was baptised outwardly * 1.191 by Philip, and yet I do not beléeue that euer he did put on Christ, sith that he did not truely beléeue.

Eusebius.

Notwithstanding it is written in the Actes, that he belie∣ued.

Theophilus.

It is certeine. But yet neuertheles he hath well declared af••ewardes, that the same which hée hath done was but dissembling, and that he had neuer true faith. But saint Luke, who hath written the history speaketh after the common manner of speaking, as wée doe say, that a man hath receiued the gospell: or that a Iewe hath made himselfe or is become a christian, and hath beléeued in Iesus which yet neuertheles may doe it, by hypocrisse, and not in déede. Yet neuerthelesse we doe speake euen as the thinges are shewed vnto vs, leauing the iudgment of y^• heart vnto God. So hath saint Augu∣stine expounded that which saint Luke hath spoken that Symon Magus hath beléeued.

Hillarius.

I thinke, Eu∣sebius, that thou oughtest to content thyselfe with the aunswere which Theophilus made vnto thée. For it is so cleare and easie, and so much confirmable vnto the Annallogie of the faith, that none can speake against it, except he do loue rather to contende and striue thorowe obstination, then to content himselfe with reason. And if thou doe diligently consider, and well way that which hath béene aunswered vnto thée, thou m••ist profite by it many wayes. For by the same thou maist knowe what ought to be the vse of the sacraments: what ought to be the true baptisme and the true regeneration of a Christian. If thou dost vnderstande that, thou shall bée

〈◊〉〈◊〉 more in doubt, nor in 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of the younge Infant•••• which dye without baptisme: But wylt leaue them in the handes of God, and 〈◊〉〈◊〉 refor••e all vn∣to his mercy. And if thou bée once come vnto that pointe, th•••• shalt also knowe the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 o•• those which doe carie their children that are bor•••• dead 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 they dyd in that 〈◊〉〈◊〉 vnto 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 of grace of Geneua, or vn∣to our 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of Lau••anne.

Thomas.

They did also cary them vnto the holye crosse, and vnto our Ladye of But∣ter. * 1.192

Hillarius.

Ther 〈◊〉〈◊〉 now then but a Lady of Chéese, 〈◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊〉 of Butter, the whiche is nowe altogether 〈◊〉〈◊〉. W•••• shoulde haue but a little iudgement, if wée ••••••we not those great abuses, and to iudge of those false 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Further more, by th••se same reasons thou maist iudge of the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of those which doe giue authori∣tie vnto the wise and 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••••emon to baptis•• the younge * 1.193 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 they 〈◊◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊◊〉 daunger of 〈◊〉〈◊〉

Eusebius.

〈◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊〉 there in that Hillanius Th••••∣〈…〉〈…〉 can tell thée.

Theoph••••••••.

There is first of all this euill, that those that require such baptisme, are of an opinion that it is so necessary vnto 〈◊〉〈◊〉, that without the same their childe cannot be saned. Wherein they doe 〈◊〉〈◊〉 vnto the grace of Iesus Christ, and doe presume 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of the vertue of his holy spirite, and do render publicke and open witnesse of their superstition and infidelitie. Againe, they sinne in that that they doe dishonour the Sacramentes, when they giue and bestowe them vnto others then vnto those vnto whome God hath giuen the charge to administer them. Wherefore they cannot fayle, either on the one side or on the other, but that they are greatly to bée rebu∣ked. For if they doe adde to it necessitie, it appeareth al∣ready into what errour they are. If they saye that they doe not put to it necessitie, and that they doe not tye the grace of God vnto the corruptible elementes, and exteri∣our ministrie, wherefore then doe they giue that authoritie

vnto woemen, without the word of God? Wherefore doo they take any other 〈◊〉〈◊〉 then the same which is gi∣uen them of Iesus Christ? Wherefore doe they seperate that which God hath ioyned together? For the baptisme & the administration of Sacraments are ioyned together with the 〈◊〉〈◊〉, and 〈◊〉〈◊〉 be seperated, without o∣uer throwing the orna•• which Iesus Christ hath put and set in his Church. Nowe euen as the institution of the Sacramentes is a publicke Ceremony and ioyned toge∣ther with the ministrie of the Gospel, so ought they to be * 1.194 administred publyckly in the Church, by those selfe same vnto whome the ministrie of the Gospel is committed, and which of God and of the same are ••lected pastor•• and ministers. And therefore Iesus Christ hath not giuen charge to baptise vnto others then vnto those vnto whom * 1.195 he hath commaunded to preach his gospel, & to exercise the Euangelicall ministrie in his Church. For it is expre••••y * 1.196 forbidden woemen to speake in the Church, and to vsurpe vpon them any ecclesiastical office: the which thing is not permitted but vnto woemen, & yet not vnto all indiffer••••∣ly, but vnto those which are elected & lawefully ordeyned to the same, the which he doth sufficiently declare, when he cōmaunded by his Apostle, y^• all things should be done ho∣nestly * 1.197 & in order. For if in y^• ••••uile administration order be required, & that it is not lawful to exercise y^• offices, but to the officers, d•• we thinke y^• Iesus Christ requireth lesse in the ecclesiasticall policie? and that hée will suffer, that the same that he hath set should be ouerthrowen? Those then that will allow the baptisme of women, ought first to shew in what place God hath ordeyned it: what witnesse or ex∣ample of the Scripture they haue. If that is wantinge them, as I am well assured that it is, they shall bée con∣strayned to confesse, that that baptisme is giuen wythout fayth, and that it is builded but vpon mans opinion.

For faith commeth by the hearinge of the worde of * 1.198 God. If then it haue not the word of God, it can haue no faith. If it haue no fayth, it is then sinne. For all that * 1.199

whiche is done without fayth is sinne. We maye then * 1.200 aske them, euen as Iesus Christ asked the Pharises, tou∣ching the baptisme of Iohn. Baptist: to witte, whether it were from heauen or of men. Also in lyke manner that baptisme of woemen, whether it be of God or of men? If they answere y^• it •••• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 God, where are the witnesses of the Scripture. I•• they answere it is of men, as they shall 〈◊〉〈◊〉 constrayne•• to say, they shalbe compelled to confesse, that it is the procéeded from an other author contrary vnto God: ••••th that Iesus Christ directeth men vnto heauen and vnto God, declaring thereby that that which is not of the one, is of his cōtrary. I cannot then conclude but that that baptisme is procéeded of any other, but of the aduersary of God, which would aduance, women vnto the ministerie and ecclesiasticall offices, from which God woulde drawe and pull them from it, for to declare themselues in all thinges contrarye vnto GOD. Euen so hath hée done * 1.201 amonge the Pa••••ms, which haue vsed woemen Priestes: And amonge the heretickes Martionistes, who with their master Martion, haue permitted woemen to baptyse, as Epiphanius wytnesseth. Beholde the examples & wit∣nesses which you may haue, for your baptisme of women.

Eusebius.

I doe agrée vnto all that whiche thou sayest, as touching the publyke office, and hauinge no necessytie. For the Councells, Canons and auncient Doctours, doe not saye much lesse, but doe witnesse playnelye, that it is not lawfull for anye person to baptise, but vnto the Ministers of the Church, as the Bishoppes and Priestes doe. But they doe vnderstande the same, when there is no extraordinarye necessitie, and daunger of death. For in such case they doe dispence and permit to doe it, not onely vnto lay men and handycrafts men, but in like man∣n••r ••nto women.

Theophilus.

Wée doe not dispute of that which men do permit, but of that which god hath cōmaun∣ded. I finde no necessitie, but whē God giueth vs y^• means, & that ther may be falt in vs. Neuertheles if it be néedful to arme th••selues with y^• authoritie of men, in this matter, yet

wée will proue that the 〈◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊〉 for v••. For first of all, 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 i•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 that ••••er Iesus Christ hath sayd ••••to 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 and baptise, Wherefore sainct August•••• ••ath 〈◊〉〈◊〉 •••• 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 ••••••ly of the woeman, but of the pri••••te and p••••ticul••r man, to witte, whether hée do•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 i•• 〈◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊〉 i•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of neces∣〈◊〉〈◊〉 To the whi••h ••é•• 〈◊◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊◊〉 the rather for to 〈◊〉〈◊〉 it th•••• 〈◊◊◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊◊◊〉 the ••eas••, * 1.202 wi••e it is a thing 〈◊〉〈◊〉 that •••• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••ot 〈◊〉〈◊〉 that it is lawfull, but confe••••eth 〈◊〉〈◊〉 that there 〈◊〉〈◊〉 •• cer∣teyne fault, although that ••ée made it light. But he hath taken it, as it happen••th 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••••to the good Ma∣riners, who through the ••iol••••c••s •••• the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 are constrayned to 〈◊〉〈◊〉 from their right 〈◊〉〈◊〉 and to fol∣lowe whether the tempestes and windes will driue and cary them. There ••s no doubte, that 〈◊〉〈◊〉 from the time of Sain••t Augustine, that errour and custome was not any thing at all receyued. Wherefore Sainct Augu∣stine ••••rst not altogether condempne it. No more also durst hée ••o allowe it, nor altogether excuse it o•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Yet neuerthelesse, if wée doe followe the rule of Iesus Christe, that will put vs ••ut of all doub••e. Althoughe that wée yet haue on our side, the fourth Councell of A∣frica, whiche hath forbidden the same, without any ex∣ception. * 1.203 It is most true, that in the ••e••ré••s ••f Gra••ian, that Canon is alledged, but not accordinge to the truth: as it is written in the booke of Councells. For hée ad∣deth to it the exception, whiche is not in the true ory∣ginall.

Hillarius.

Althoughe that ••here w••re none but the witnesses of the Priestes, they doe sufficientlye declare that it is euill. For when one bringeth the ••hildren to ••ée baptised, they doe demaunde: is there any thinge but good? They demaund the same, for to know whether that the Infant hath bene baptised by the woem••n. If it hath not bene baptised, th•••• aunswere, that all is well or there is nothinge but good. It followeth then that

th••re was an euill when the childe was baptised by them.

Eusebius.

They d•••• not vnderstand it so as thou takest it.

Hillarius.

I beléeue thée well, and I doubt not but that God will make th••m speake, •••• he hath made Ca••p••••es to prophecie, without vnderstanding themselues.

Eusebius.

For that thou 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 thy selfe so much, that we haue no witnes of the Scripture, how wilt thou the•• * 1.204 excuse Zipphora, the wi••e of Moses, who circumcised hir sonne Eleaser, in Moses own presence, how hath then Mo∣ses pe••••••itte•• the same?

Theophilus.

The example is not like, but rather against thée, then for thée. For first, thou séest that Moses did not estéeme the circumcision so necessary, as you estéeme the baptisme: sith that he made so small accompt to circumcise his ••onne, although that he had more expresse commaunde∣ment, th•••• we haue of baptisme: Furthermore, notwith∣standing that that place is very obs••ure, bicause that Mo∣ses rehearseth the history ••o short and briefly. Yet neuer∣thelesse i•• one doe examine it throughly, one shall not finde that that example can be better applyed, then to the ••ispi∣••••ng of the circumcision and of the Sa••••a••••e••••es. For that which is written, that the Lord or his Angell, came before him and assalted him, minding to kill him. 〈◊〉〈◊〉¦ently declareth that the Lord was ang••••, bicause that Mo∣ses, notwithstandinge that he had the ••••••e and the occa∣sion to circumcise his sonne, hath not done such diligence as he ought to haue done. Wherefore the Lord punished him. But as soone as the childe was circumcised, he was deliuered from that daunger, and the Lord did not pursue him anye more: But there is an other reason, when the Infantes doe dye, and that there is no negligence, nor default in the parentes. As touching that that Zipphora did the office to circumcise, & not Moses, we must consider that then Moses coulde not doe that, bicause that he was pressed and grieued by the hande of God, who would haue killed him. Wherefore, for to saue his lyfe, Zipphora

laide to hi•• 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 For none other coulde haue done it but shée.

Eusebius.

Nowe thou art compelled to confesse that which I demaund. For thou wilt excuse Zipphora by∣caus•• of the necessitie whiche constrained hir: no more also doe wée allow the baptisme administred by woemen and others then the ministers of the Church: but in case of necessitie.

Theophilus.

I haue yet other reasons against thée. The first is that wée doe not reade, that God hath giuen expresse commaundement vnto men onely, to circumcise, as he hath do••e of baptising. The second is, there was not th•••• ••ny forme of the Church, nor polici•• and publike mi∣nistrie amonge the Medianites, and where Moses was.

The third is, that it is lykest to ••ée true, that Zipphora did that by the commaundement of Moses hir husbande, who feeling himselfe stroke•• of God, admonyshed hir to do that for to saue his life. For otherwise, how could ••he haue vnderstanded and knowen, that hir hus••ande had bene in daunger of death, for such cause, if hée had not aduertysed hir of it. Although that Moses writinge briefly hath not re••••••rsed all those thinges at large. But he hath made them sufficiently to bée vnderstanded. Nowe if Moses did commaunde hir, she did it not without the worde of God: Sith that Moses was a Prophet: yea him, by whome God addressed and gaue his ordinaunce in the Church of Israel. Furthermore, although that it be so, yet that ex∣ample is not sufficient, for to builde the baptisme of woe∣men, against the ordinance of Iesus Christ: For we ought * 1.205 not to draw into a generall consequence, the perticuler ex∣amples of Sainctes: and that which by a singuler priui∣ledge and dispensation hath bene somtime permitted them, if we haue no expresse commaundement as they haue had: or the same occasions and circumstaunces. Besides that, that there be some examples of holy men, the which the Scripture alloweth not alwayes, notwithstanding that it rehearseth them, or if it doe allowe them in those there,

it followeth not therefore, that it doth the like in vs, if we haue not a certeine vocation and calling of God.

Thomas.

I greatly feare Eusebius, that in disputing af∣ter this manner, the Lymbe and the Purgatorye which thou vpholdest and mainteinest, will be altogether destroi∣ed and ouerthrowen. For as farre as I can iudge, the same of the young children is altogether throwen down to the ground, if thou do not helpe it. The Purgatorye hath but a little more holde: There remayneth now but the Lim∣be * 1.206 of the fathers, of which I do very much desire to know the resolution, and to vnderstande whether it bée all one with Paradise. For Theophilus hath already almost pro∣ued it to bée so, speaking of the estate of those which were in Abrahams bosome.

Eusebius.

I do not deny but that the auncient Fathers, which were deteined in the Limbes, had already a certein participation of the celestial ioyes, but not so great, as they haue had after the death and passion of Iesus Christ.

Theophilus.

I hope that we shalbe soone agréed and that there shall be in the ende no other difference betwéene the Sainctes which are dead vnder the olde and new Testa∣ment, then betwéene the liuing, which haue bene both in the one and in the other. Thou canst not deny 〈◊〉〈◊〉 but that * 1.207 the Church of Iesus Christ hath begun, thence y^e creati∣on of the world, & the first that euer was last & righteous, & the which shal so continue vnto the ende & conclusion of the world, & shall continue eternally.

Eusebius.

I do con∣fesse no lesse.

Theophilus.

I•• followeth by the same reason, that the Church of the patriarches & prophets, which haue ben before the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ is none other but y^e very same of his Apostles, Euangelists & Dis∣ciples: and that the faithfull of the people of Israel and those of y^e christian people are but one people & one church. For they had one very God: one very Christ and the ve∣ry * 1.208 promises: one very spirit of faith: and hau•• eaten of one manner of spirituall meate, and did all drinke of one man∣ner * 1.209 of spiritual drinke with vs, as the Apostle witnesseth.

Eusebius.

Then there shall be no difference betwéene the auncient Fathers and vs. To what ende then serued the comming of Iesus Christ?

Theophilus.

I haue not yet sayde so. For I doe finde great difference.

Eusebius.

What?

Theophilus.

* 1.210 As great as is betwéene a starre and the Sunne, from the day breake and dawning to hye none: betwéene the shadow and the body: betwéene the Image and the truth: betwéene the thing promised, and the thing giuen.

Eusebius.

Thou wilt yet come vnto my matter. For it séemeth by those wordes, that thou leauest to the auncientes but the sha∣dowes and figures and that thou giuest vnto vs the body and the thing figured. There is then great difference.

Theophilus.

Yet thou vnderstandest me not very well. I doe not denye, but that they had all that which wée haue: but not so cléerely, so excellently and so gloriously, nor in such aboundaunce of glory and maiestie: For by * 1.211 the comming of Iesus Christ the knowledge of God, and the intelligence of the holy Scriptures hath bene more greater, and more ample then before: not onely in the land of Canaan, & to the people of Israel, but in all landes, coun∣tries * 1.212 & nations and the spirit of God with all his giftes, graces and riches, hath bene distributed in more greater aboundaunce efficacie vertue & magnificence then euer it was

Eusebius.

* 1.213 That which thou speakest off, toucheth not yet but to the liuing which haue liued as well vnder the olde as the new testament. But what difference doest thou put betwéene the liuing and the dead, vnder the one and the other?

Theophilus.

That should bée too great teme∣ritie and rashnesse in vs, to define of the estate of the dead, and to affirme any other thing then that which standeth manifestly vnto vs by the holy Scriptures. Yet neuer∣thelesse, because that in the same there are some places, which giue light vnto vs of that same. I will not make it any greate repugnaunce to putte in that matter, such certeine difference betwéene them, as wée haue put be∣twne the liuing.

Eusebius.

It séemeth then, that thou wouldest say that the gates of Paradise were no lesse open, before the death and passion of Iesus Christ then afterwardes. And that there was none other difference, betwéene the hea∣uenly ioy and fruition of the auncient fathers, and of the Christians that are deade, saying that nowe all haue it more ample and more excellent.

Theophilus.

As for my part there where I haue not the scripture well expressed, I doe leaue vnto euery one his frée iudgement, so that it be ruled by the worde of God. Touching my part, I will expounde vnto thée, that that I can drawe & comprehend out of the holy scriptures, by the which it is sufficiently made knowen vnto vs, that notwithstanding that Iesus Christ hath béene immolated and offered vpon the Crosse for to satisfie the righteousnesse of God for vs, at the time which was ordeined him of the father, yet hath he béene * 1.214 ne••erthelesse killed and offered in the presence of God, from the beginning of the worlde. For it is written: Iesus Christ was yesterday and to day, and the same contynueth for euer. By those wordes, the Apostle com∣prehendeth all the tyme past, present and to come. To which Iesus Christ himselfe had-regarde, when he saide, Abraham did sée my dayes and reioyced. For although * 1.215 that in respect of vs he was crucyfied in the fulnesse of time, in those latter dayes, yet neuerthelesse in the pre∣sence of God, he hath béene a••••ayes: and his sacrifice hath béene eternally presented vnto him. For with God there is up difference of times, as in vs, bicause that all * 1.216 thinges are present to him, and that he is aboue, and out of the same. For a thousande yeares before him, are to * 1.217 him but as one day. Wherefore in the same sort as the death and passion of Iesus Christe serueth nowe to vs, which beleeue that he hath béene crucified for vs, although that he hangeth no more in the crosse, so I holde it for certeine, that it profiteth those which liued before that he was cruci••••ed, and haue beléeued that he ought to come and dye for them, euen as we beléeue that he is come,

and that he is deade for vs.

Eusebius.

To what ende hath serued then his comming?

Theophilus.

Doest thou yet not vnderstande it? If a man were detayned and kept in pri∣son for certeine debt that he oweth, and that he hath a cer∣teine friend who commeth to be his suertie and to pledge him, body for body, and goods for goods, and that the creditor & prince receiueth & alloweth him for his pledge, suertie and hostage, shall not the prisoner be deliuered by meanes of that suertie? But yet neuerthelesse, vpon such condition, that either he, or his suertye doe pay and satis∣fie for him, at the time as shalbe appointed him. After * 1.218 the same manner hath God done, with those good auncy∣ent fathers. For sithen••e that he made the promise vnto Adam, of the séede of the woman which shoulde breake the serpents head, the which afterwardes he hath r••••••••ra∣ted and confirmed more amply and more clearely vnto A∣braham, * 1.219 Iacob, Dauid, and to all the other patr••ark•••• and celebrated by all his Prophetes, and by all the sacri∣fices, oblations, figures and ceremonyes commaunded in bys lawe, Iesus Christ offred himselfe to God his father, for to bee our pledge and suertye: and gaue himselfe to him as a pledge, for all those which haue beléeued in his promises, made of him. But vpon such condition, that * 1.220 he being very and true God, according to the good pleasure of the father, for to satisfie his will and his righteousnesse, tooke vpon him our flesh and presented himselfe before his iudgement at the time as by his prouidence was constitu∣ted and appointed him, for to satisfie in our stéede. Nowe sith y^• Iesus Christ hath once aunswered for his bretheren beléeuing in him, the heauenly father hath excepted it, as∣well as though, he had alreadie satisfied it, as afterwardes he hath done it in his time.

Eusebius.

Doest thou think that * 1.221 there is in the other life any augmentation and increase of ioy and of glory?

Theophilus.

To the end thou maist not rebuke me in ouer rash defining of such things, I will pro∣pounde vnto thée the witnesses of the scripture, by whiche thou maist comprehend that which we may iudge off. Mark

then first the witnesse of the Apostle, which saith, writ∣ting of the holy prophets and seruants of God which were before the comming of Christ: that all those there, hauing * 1.222 obteyned witnesse by faith receiued not the promise, God hauing prouided a certeine better thing for vs, to the end that they should not be come vnto perfection, without vs. He saith not, that they haue altogether receiued the promise: For it was made first of all to them. But he vn∣derstandeth the accomplishing and the fruite of the same, of which they haue not béene altogether depriued: But they haue not had it so perfectly, as we haue it nowe: For sith that he speaketh of fulfilling and ending, he signifieth then, that there is alreadie great beginning of felicitie: But the perfection was not yet, nor shalbe vntill the con∣sūmation and restoring of all things. For the terme of consūmation and perfection, are relatiues, the which wée must necessarily referre vnto some beginning. To which a∣gréeth the aunswere that GOD made vnto the soules of the Martyrs which demaunded vengeaunce against the persecutors of the Church: vnto whome the Lorde aun∣swered, that they shoulde tarrye vntyll the number of * 1.223 their bretheren were fulfilled.

Eusebius.

make me to vnder∣stand that more clearely.

Theophilus.

Assone as we b••gin to knowe God in * 1.224 this worlde, and to beléeue in Iesus Christ, we begin also to tast the goodnesse of the celestiall life and of the worlde to come: But we haue not yet perfect ioy. Yet neuerthe∣lesse sithence that we haue once tasted that celestiall good∣nesse we grow from day to day, from knowledge to know¦ledge, from faith to faith, from good to be better, vntil we become vnto the age of a perfect man, to the fulnesse of * 1.225 Christ, to the eternall felicitie and ended blessednesse. Now if alreadie in this vale of misery, our soule, being charged with this terrestiall body, shut vp and kept in the same, as in a darke prison, altogether wrapped in miseries, sinnes and maledictions, receiueth such consolation and ioy, there is no doubt, but that after that it is deliuered from that

prison and capti••••tie and hath put of all earthly corrup∣tion, it may growe into all goodnesse and perfection: or else in vaine hath Saint Paul saide: I des••re to be losed and to be with Christ, which thing is to ••e best of all. * 1.226 And yet neuerthelesse it hath not hir ••e••i••••tie and per∣fect glorie, vntill the resurrection of his glorious bodie, And that it be againe vnited wi••h it, and se•• God face to face, and knowe him as we haue béene know•••• of him: * 1.227 then when he shal haue vanquished all things, and shalbe all in all. For it is not yet appeared, what we shalbe: but our life is hid in Iesus Christ. Euen as then, those which doe nowe depart out of this life, haue not yet such ioy, as they shall haue after that Iesus Christ shall ap∣peare in glorie, ••or to iudge all flesh, when we shall all arise, so by the like reason we may estéeme and thinke, that the auncient fathers, which haue béene before the comm••ng of Iesus Christ, haue not had altogether such ioy and felicitie, before ••is resurrection as afterwarde. For if the Angels themselues, which alwayes doe behold * 1.228 the face of the heauenly father haue receiued increase of the science and knowledge of God and of their felicitie by the comming of Iesus Christ, and there ought to receiue it more ample in the resurrection of the iust and righte∣ous, we must not doubt, but that asmuch shall happen vnto the blessed spirites and iust soules. Wherefore wée may easely knowe by the same: howe great and admira∣ble the misterie and secret of the redemption of mankinde is: and what is the excellencie of the Church of Iesus Christ: sith that the angels themselues do•• receiu•• so great profite and increase in all goodnesse.

Thomas.

By what place of the holy scripture ca••st thou proue that which thou speakest.

Theophilus.

They are sufficiently expres∣sed in the Epistles of the Apostles for saint Peter, speaking of that matter, saith that of the Prophets & auncyent fa∣thers, that it hath béene reuealed vnto them, y^• not to them selues, but vnto vs, they should administer the things; the which (saith he) nowe are declared vnto you by them * 1.229

which haue declared the gospell, by the holy ghost sent from 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the which the Angels doe desire to beholde. The Angel•• had not that desire, but that they did féele a greate goodnesse. But saint Paul sheweth vnto vs the same yet more expressely and declareth vnto vs sufficient∣ly that sith that the Angels are the ministers of God ap∣pointed * 1.230 to the health of men, which cannot be in perfect and full blessednesse as we which are their compagnions, burgesses and citizens of the kingdome of heauen with them, neither are we also come therevnto. For euen as they do reioyce ouer the sinner that repenteth and which * 1.231 ret••urneth vnto God: also without all doubt, sith that a∣bo••e all things they do procure our helth and saluation, it cannot be, but that they are verie angrye and sorye when they sée vs yet pressed with sinne and death and to striue against them in great anguish. Forasmuch then as their ••••••y••itie is ioyned with ours, it is certeine that theirs without ours cannot be perfect. For it is written expres∣ly that the saintes shal iudge the Angels and the worlde * 1.232 And the Apostle affirmeth, that nowe vnto the rulers and powers in heauen might be knowne by the congregation * 1.233 the manifold wisedome of God according to the eternall purpose which he purposed in Christe Iesu our Lorde. If the Angels then doe learne yet and profite in the know∣ledge of the goodnesse of God, the which they doe daily sée to be manifested by newe miracles towardes the Church, so in like manner it must be that they doe acknoweledge vs for their iudges, and princes in Christ, and bicause of Christe it is easie to knowe that there is yet a certeine thing in them whiche doth séeke his perfection of Iesus Christe. Therefore it is written that thorowe him all * 1.234 thinges are repaired and restored, both in heauen and in earth. Wherein the scripture teacheth vs, that his com∣ming was not onely healthful vnto men, but also vnto all creatures yea vnto the Angels themselues, which had no sinne. For euen as the f••ll of man hath drawen after him the ruine of all other creatures and hath made them sub∣iect

vnto malediction with him? so euery creature sigheth and groneth with him also, loo••••••g for their re∣demption * 1.235 and deliuerance, the which is ioyned together with his. Nowe if the Angells cannot be perfectly cons••∣mated in all blessednesse without vs, which are their com∣paignio••s, how shal our other bretheren do which are ioy∣ned néerer vnto vs, & which do yet t••••••e for the redempti∣on of their bodyes, and the consummation of their ioy? the which they cannot haue without vs, and a great deale lesse then the Angels.

Thomas.

We•• may also con∣clude by the contrarie, that the tor••ents of the diuells * 1.236 and reprobate doe increase: and that they shalbe greater and more grieuous, after the latter iudgement, then they are at this present.

Theophilus.

Saint Péeter doth giue vs most euident witnesse, writing of the wicked and reprobate after this manner: howe will God spare them, if he haue not spa∣red * 1.237 the Angels that haue sinned: but hath cast them down into hell, & deliuered them into chaynes of darkenesse, to be kept vnto iudgement? And by and by after he saith more∣ouer: the Lorde knoweth howe to deliuer the godly out of temptation, and howe to reserue the vniust vnto the day of iudgement. We cannot deny, but that the diuels * 1.238 and reprobate are alreadie in torment, and but that they are alreadie drowned in the bottome of hell, sith that they are reiected of God, & that they are in his wrath •• indig∣nation. But yet neuerthelesse by the words of saint Peter we may easely vnderstand that they doe attend and ••ari•• for yet, a certeine more grieuous iudgement, & gods an∣ger more fearefull then they haue féeled. But for to make thée to vnderstand more plainely that which I thinke, I will expounde it vnto thée by a similitude and comparison taken of the very words of S. Peter. When a malefactor hath cōmitted some certein great cryme, worthy of death * 1.239 & grieuous punishment, there is no doubt, but y^• he féeleth his condempnation in his conscience, assone as he hath cō∣mitted the euil déede. He hath his conscience which is his * 1.240

accusor: for a witnesse: for a iudge and for a hangeman: and it can be none otherwise. His conscience ••yteth and * 1.241 accuseth him. Afterwardes he commeth to be vanquished of hys misdéedes, by his owne proper witnesse, which a∣vayleth more then a thousand witnesses. And after it hath vanquished hym, it condempneth him. And euen as it con∣strayneth them to witnesse against themselues, so it con∣strayneth them, to condempne themselues, insomuch that although all the Angels and all the men of the worlde, woulde cleare them and pronounce them to be righte∣ous and iust, yet neuerthelesse they cannot absolue and cleare themselues, nor auoide their owne iudgement. Now after y^• sentēce giuen, it must be that it be put in execution, and that the malefactor be deliuered into the hands of the hangeman: the which he néede not to séeke farre, nor out of himselfe. His conscience with the rest, doth yet that of∣fice: the which whippeth and tormenteth him so cruelly that he cannot haue rest day nor night. If he sée any talke together, he thinketh they talke of hym. If he sée but a leafe of a trée to wagge he thinketh that they are seriants sent for to take and carie him to prison. If he thinke to sléepe and take rest, he dreameth that he is in the handes of the iudge which sendeth him to the hangeman, and that they doe leade him to the gallowes. And in waking and sléeping, he ceaseth not to imagine and thinke of hange∣men, ••ortures and Gybettes: Wherefore the Prophete hath not saide without a cause: That the wicked are like the raging Sea, that cannot rest, whose water ••ometh with the myre and grauell.

Euen so the wicked haue no peace, saith the Lorde. * 1.242 Haue we not the example verie euident in Caine and in Iudas? From whence procéeded that violence of mans conscience but from GOD? Which maketh hys eni∣myes to féele hys iudgement and his furour, in such sort that they themselues cannot beare it? But are constray∣ned to condempne them selues and despaire: whiche

is a certeine witnesse that there is a iudgement and •• God vnto whome we must render accompte. The which * 1.243 we ought all to vnderstande and knowe, although wée should neuer heare speaking of God, nor of his holy scrip∣tures: and although we shoulde haue none other witnes but the same heré: the which God hath naturally prin∣ted into the heart of euery one, the which ought well to suffice vs. For as saint Iohn saith: if but hearts condemne * 1.244 vs, God is greater then our harts and knoweth all things. That is as much as if he had saide, if we ourselues doe condemne vs, may not God well condemyne vs? Sith that we haue such a feare and such a horrour doeth not our heart admonish vs sufficiently, that we haue a superiour and gouernour which will not suffer such thinges? Sith that there is not so great a Prince, not so great a Tyrant, which feeleth not that hell in his conscience. Although there be not a man vppon the earth aboue him of whome he may be afraide. Doest thou nowe see, howe the hell * 1.245 of the wicked beginneth alreadie in him, here in 〈◊〉〈◊〉 worlde? The which our Lorde Iesus Christ, woulde not haue vs to be ignorant off, saying: be that beléeueth in the * 1.246 sonne of God, hath eternall life, and shall not tast of death. For he is alreadie passed from death to life, but he that beléeueth not in the sonne of God, he is alreadie iudged and condem••ned. Doth he not shewe vs here with the finger howe the faithfull beginneth alreadie his paradise in this worlde, and the infidell and vnfaithfull hys hell.

Hillarius.

There is nothing more certeine then that which thou speakest. And although we had not the wit∣nesses of the Scriptures, wee haue the witnesse of na∣ture, printed into the hearts of all, which hath constrai∣ned * 1.247 the Poets to inuent and finde out that fayning of the furies, the which we may call she diuelles. They do assigne their habitation in the helles, and say that they do torment the wicked and reprobate people, most horribly aswell in this worlde, as in the other. By the which they

vnderstand none other thing, but the torments and assaltes of the euill conscience, and that worme which dyeth not, * 1.248 but gnaweth and deuoureth incessauntly.

Theophilus.

I doubt not. But let vs sée how y^• ••el encreaseth day by day. If the malefactor be alredy so much tormented before that the Iudge hath layde his handes vpon him, before that he be put in prison, before that he hath ben on the racke, van∣quished, iudged and condem••ned: Let vs thinke what tor∣ment he ought to haue, beeing in prison, after that his pro∣cesse is made and concluded, looking & tarying for his sen∣tence & cruel death euery houre. In what anguish thinkest thou that he is in? Doest thou thinke that the horror that he hath of the looking for of the torments, which are pre∣pared for him, are vnto him a great deale lesse paine, then the torments and the death that hée looketh for?

Euse∣bius.

Truely I beléeue that there is no great difference, & that he dyeth so many times, as he liueth houres and mi∣nutes.

Theophilus.

Thou séest howe hée is already iudged, and yet hée is not. He is sufficiently iudged and condem∣ned as to himselfe, sith that he hath his conscience, his con∣fession, his witnesse and his processe against himselfe, and that he accompteth himselfe alredy as dead. But neuerthe∣lesse, there is yet a more greater horror to be brought to iudgemēt, to heare the sentence of his Iudge, to be condem∣ned and executed openly, notwithstanding y^t he is already sufficiently condemned being in the prison, yet neuertheles the Iudge must pronounce openly his last sentence: & that his iudgement be put in execution. As much may wée say * 1.249 of the Diuels and reprobate. Whilest that the wicked doe liue héere in this worlde, they are lyke vnto ma∣lefactors, before that they are apprehended and taken. When God calleth them from this worlde, hée cyteth them before hym, ••or to appeare in iudgement: And they are as though they were cast in prison, lookinge for their latter sentence, which shall bee giuen them in that great ••aye, in which all processe, all causes and appeales shall

ende. Beholde the cause wherefore Sainct Peter maketh * 1.250 mention of the bondes and chaines, with which GOD bindeth y^• diuels, which he hath reserued to his iudgemēt, vsing humaine and materiall comparisons, for to declare vnto vs y^• heauenly & spirituall things. That is the cause wherefore the wicked spirites doe pray vnto Iesus Christ, that hée will not sende them into the déepe, complai∣ninge * 1.251 and lamentinge, bicause that they did féele by his comming their iudgement to approch nigh. And therefore they cried: O Iesu thou sonne of Dauid, art thou come he∣ther, to torment vs before our time be come? We cannot doubt but that they were already tormented before, as the malefactor, which is in the ••••ockes and chaines. But they haue dreadful feare when they do sée their Iudge, and that they doe féele their last sentence to drawe nigh.

Thomas.

It is to be meruailed at, how the one of the matters bringeth in the other, and giueth vnderstandinge of it. Thou hast deliuered me from one great doubt, & thou * 1.252 hast instructed me how I ought to aunswere vnto a very hard question, the which was propunded vnto me not long a goe: that is to say. If after that the soule is seperated from the body, whether y^• it goeth straight way into Paradise, or into hell? For if it goeth into Paradise, or into hell, it seemeth that the iudgement is alredy done, & that we must tary no longer for it: or if we ought to looke and tary for an other, that y^• soules of the faithfull or vnfaythfull, haue not yet a place assigned vnto them, for to receyue felicitie or malediction. And therefore some doe saye, that they sleepe vntill that great iourney. But thou hast taken from mée the doubt, and hast satisfied mee thorowly.

Theophilus.

Wee must not bee abashed, althoughe those that sleepe doe dreame. But we ought rather to bee * 1.253 abashed, to see those that be awake to dreame, and to be∣leeue and giue credite vnto the dreames of the sleepers. For if it were so, the woorkes of God, agaynst their na∣ture, should rather diminish then increase and th•• fayth∣full ought more to feare the corporall de 〈◊〉〈◊〉 then th••

vnfaythfull: For by the death, the vnfaythfull should bée at rest, and the faythfull shoulde bée depriued from that portion of the eternall felicitie, the which they haue alredy tasted off in this world, the which they ought to haue mor amply, after that they be delyuered from the prison of this mortall body. I beléeue most assure••ly, that if Sainct Paul had thought that hée must haue slepte so longe 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in bo∣dye and soule, after his decease, wythout hauing more ••••••∣ple fruition of the heauenly goodnesse and ioyes, then hée had in this worlde, that hée would neuer haue sayde. What to choose I wotto not: I am constrayned of two * 1.254 thinges, I desire to be loosed, and to bee wyth Christ which thing is best of all. Neuerthelesse to abyde in the fleshe is more néedfull for you. For in stéede to receyue more greater goodnesse as hée desired, hée was ••••mpayred and made worse: and that portion of the heauenlye goodnesse that hée had already tasted off, lyuing in thys bodye, was better for him, then to bée altogether spoyled of it, and to sléepe, beeing insensible as a stone, two or thrée thousande yeares.

Hillarius.

Cycero was but a Panim and an heathen man, who was not very certeine nor assured of the eter∣nall lyfe, nor perfectly resolued of the immortalytie of the soules, but yet neuerthelesse hee sayth, that he would not lyue nyntie yeares, in such sorte, that after that he had de∣passed thrée score yeares, hée shoulde sléepe the residue of * 1.255 nentie yeares: But whiche is more, hée addeth is that matter: the Hogges woulde not desyre that, muche lesse I By that accompte, hée esteemeth the lyfe of Hogs better then that of man, all the whyle as hée abydeth a sléepe: bycause that the sleeper is an Image of death, * 1.256 the whiche alwayes representeth hymselfe in slée∣ping.

Theophilus.

And therefore I dooe conclude, that notwithstandinge that the Lorde by hys prouydence hath constituted and appointed that the bodyes doe sléepe in the earth, as in their hedde, vntyll the resurrectyon,

that the number of their bretheren shalbe fulfilled, yet ne∣uertheles the faithful nor the vnfaithfull, neuer are with∣out their Paradise, & their hell: the which the more as they doe approch to their consummation & ende, so much y^• more doe they encrease & augment, vntill such time as they are come vntill the latter degrée of felicit••e or infelicitie: bene∣••iction or malediction.

Thomas,

After the same manner as thou procéedest, thou wilt leaue vs neither Lymbe nor Purgatory.

Theophilus.

As touching the Lymbe, if one doe take it for the bosome of Abraham, and the condition of the ••un∣cient fathers, which haue bene before the comming of Ie∣sus Christ. I will not much dispute of the wordes, if we agrée in the thing. I am well contented to confesse, that the condition of the auncientes, as well those that bée li∣ning as those that bée dead, compared vnto ours, in res∣pect of the same, may be estéemed as a prison, in price of a * 1.257 palaice: If we doe beholde the shadowes and figures, vn∣der whose darknesse they haue bene deteyned and kept, in respect of vs: and the seruitude and bondage of the Mo∣saicall lawe, vsinge suche comparisons as Sainct Paul: * 1.258 who compareth all this auncient people vnto young chil∣dren, which are vnder their Tutor and Master: and vnto seruauntes which are vnder the feare of their Master, in comparison of the Christian people: the which hée compa∣seth vnto the true natural & perfect children, which are al∣ready out of bōdage & gouernment, saying, that they haue not receiued y^• spirit of bondage & feare, but the spirit of a∣doption & of libertie, Vpon which we ought to note, y^• the * 1.259 Apostle denieth not simply, but that those good auncient fa∣thers haue had the same spirit of adoption and of libertie, as we haue receiued, & but y^• they were the sonnes of God, & as perfect in their estate & condition, altogether as wée. But for to magnifie y^• vertue & glory of Iesus Christ, mea∣neth to shew vnto vs y^• the goodnesse y^• we haue receiued by him in his cōming, are ••••ut any cōparison a great deale more excellēt: insomuch y^• one may cal their light darknes,

in regarde of ours: as he calleth that of Moses, in compa∣rison * 1.260 of that of Iesus Christ. Touching the Purgatory, I haue already sufficiently declared what I thincke of it. And I do not sée that the place that is alledged of y^• booke * 1.261 of the Machabees, is sufficient for to confirme it: although that the booke be very auncient and worthy of credite and to be beléeued. For although that Iudas Machabeus had done that which is there recited, it followeth not therfore that we are bound to doe the lyke. For the perticuler ex∣amples of some, are no generall rules for all: euen as I haue alredy touched, speaking of y^• example of Zipphora. Afterwardes, that witnesse is all alone, & is there recyted, more for to allowe the resurrection, and for a publike wit∣nesse of repentaunce, then for to induce to praye for the dead, as promisinge deliueraunce from Purgatory, vnto those for whom it is offered.

Eusebius.

It is very true that the text sayth expressely that Iudas Machabeus dooinge the same, had a holy and a deuoute thought of the resurrection, but it is sayde im∣mediatly afterwardes: that the aduise and thought to praye for the dead, to the ende they may bée deliuered from their sinnes, is holy and well done.

Theophilus.

Yet the same concludeth nothing, for the Purgatory. For according to your doctrine, the soules which are in Purgatorye, are alreadye deliuered from their sinnes, and there resteth no more but the paine. And therefore wée should rather saye, Vt à poems saluan∣tur, that is to saye, that they maye bée deliuered from paines, then: Vt à peccatis saluantur: that they may bée deliuered from sinnes.

Eusebius.

Thou doest not consider that sinne conteineth two things: to wit, the faulte and the paine. I confesse, * 1.262 that the true Christians, thorow the faith in Iesus Christ, are deliuered from the fault. But it followeth not there∣fore, but that they must yet beare the paine and satisfie in Purgatory.

Theophilus.

Whereto then serueth vs Iesus Christ. And whereto prof••teth us the forgiuenesse of

our sinnes.

Eusebius,

Iesus Christ serueth vs to abolish the originall s••••ne and the fault of our sinnes, that they make vs not culpable of eternall damnation, at the iudge∣ment of God: and to mitigate and make lesse the paine, the which we haue merited and deserued.

Theophilus.

I can vnderstande none other thing by * 1.263 thy speaking, but that God is as a prince, who at the re∣quest of one of his very friendes, or of the friende of the Malefactor, sheweth grace vnto the Malefactor, vpon such condition, that if he haue deserued to bée burned, or to bée put vppon the whéele, that hée shoulde haue onely but his head cut off: or if he had deserued to haue had his head cut off, that hée should haue but one of his eares cutte off, or that hée should bée but onely whipped: or that he should be raunsomed with some peece of money, the which he was bound to pay, yet besides his grace and pardon. Doest thou estéeme and thinke such grace and pardon to bée whole and perfect? or whether thou wilt iudge that the Prince had wholy pardoned the Malefactor?

Hillarius.

Not I.

Eusebius.

Is not that sufficient inough, that Iesus Christ hath deliuered vs from eternall dampnation, and that wée doe the rest if wée will: or otherwise we should be saued to good cheape.

Hillarius.

Art thou afraide of that Eusebius? or art thou angry and not well content with the goodnesse that God would doe vnto vs?

Theophilus.

Beholde Eusebius, what Iesus Christ thou makest for vs, and what credite thou giuest him towards God his Father. If he cannot obteine for vs perfect grace, * 1.264 and ful forgiuenesse from paine & fault, he is not a perfect Sauiour. And God is not God. For your owne Doctors do witnesse, & namely Raymond, who as oftentimes as God * 1.265 pardoneth any thing vnto any one, he pardoneth him who∣ly. For otherwise God worketh not perfectly. Whervpon * 1.266 they doe alledge the Verses which I haue already once spoken off.

Hillarius.

By that accompt Iesus Christ should not haue so much power & credit as the Pope, who by his Buls and pardons, promiseth ful forgiuenesse of paine and

fault. Graunt at the least as much to the pardon of Iesus * 1.267 Christ, as vnto the Buls and pardons of the Pope.

Thomas.

Take héede Eusebius, thou make not God a Tyrant: who béeing not content to chastice & pu∣nish the revels and reprobate, cannot pardon those which demaund grace and mercye, whatsoeuer request one doe make vnto him, but that he kéepeth still some roote of ve••geaunce, without forgetting the iniurye that hath bene done vnto him, but that hée receiue satisfaction and recom∣pence, either on his body or his goods. The heauenly Fa∣ther * 1.268 béeing content with the raunsome of his sonne Iesus Christ, for whose loue he hath defaced & rent in péeces our bond, that our debtes and sinnes doe come no more in re∣membraunce: or otherwise he should not be true in hys promises, which he hath made vnto vs by his Prophetes and seruauntes.

Eusebius.

To what purpose is it then written. That it is a good thing to pray for the dead?

Theophilus.

Sith that the booke is not allowed nor re∣ceiued for autenticke in the true Church, that shoulde bée great folly to stay vpon it any longer, if I would not beare with thine infirmitie, & content thée more fully. I do leaue off to alledge a coniecture very like vnto that which I haue spoken off.

Thomas.

Put it foorth.

Theophilus.

I haue som∣times thought, that that proposition, which is as a conclu∣sion, taken out of the history going before, was not put by the author of the sayd booke: but rather of some studiou•• reader, which hath no••ed the same in the margent, and that it hath bene added to the text, as it oftentimes happ••neth in many good authors. And I am not alone in that opi∣nion but many wise and learned men besides mée. And if one doe examine the thing well, it is easy to sée, y^• the con∣tinuation of the narration séemeth to be broken & marred, & that y^• sentence hath ben put in, y^• which was a curtein an∣notation & consequence, which some did make vpon y^• text: as it oftentimes happeneth in reading the bookes, & noting the places y^• which we would haue to serue vs.

Eusebius.

What reason hast thou for to proue the same?

Theophilus.

First this, for that I sée oftentimes the ex∣amples and copyes of many bookes to varye: the which varietie oftentimes is happened for such cause. Further∣more, I consider that in that time there was no mention made of Purgatorye. Wherefore if wée must praye for the dead, it is most lykest, that the prayer should haue bene ordeyned to that ende that they shoulde be deliuered from the Lymbes, if there had bene any, then from the paines * 1.269 of Purgatory: or for the comming of Iesus Christ and the resurrection of the flesh. But I doe not finde in all the ho∣ly Scripture, as well of the olde as of the newe Testa∣ment, that euer the Patriarches, Prophetes and Apostles, haue instituted or ordeyned, that one shoulde make anye speciall or perticuler prayers, for the dead, neither for to drawe them from the Lymbes nor from Purgatorye, nor for the resurrection of their bodyes. I will not denye, but that the holy Fathers haue greatly desired the comming of Iesus Christ, and but that according to their desire they haue made earnest prayers and requestes vnto God, euen as we doe praye dayly, that Gods kingdome may come, desiringe generally, all that which apperteineth to the fulfilling of the same. But it followeth not therefore, that wée must especially ordeine perticuler prayers in y^• church, for to demaūd perticulerly all things apperteining vnto y^• kingdome, & depending of the same. For in making such prayers, wée regard not our selues nor our neighbour, but onely the glory of God: the which we desire to be eralted & magnified, w^tout consideratiō of our persons nor of others, but insomuch as our health & saluation is ioyned together with y^• glory & ••raltation of his kingdome: But not in such sort y^• it is required or requisite to vse any other manner of praiers, thō those of which we haue the expresse worde of God, and the examples of the true seruants of God. And if it should haue bene otherwise, it is impossible that God would haue omitted it, without making expresse mentiō in his holy scriptures, as I haue alredy sufficiently declared vn to thée by reasons so euident, that none can gaine say them.

Eusebius.

Thou wilt then conclude for a full resolution that in the worde of God is no mention made of Purga∣tory, nor of prayers for the deade? and that we haue no néede to pray for them?

Theophilus.

I will abide firme and stedfast in that sentence, vntill such time as I haue founde aucthoritie, or example in the holy scripture wor∣thy to be followed: the which I am certeine, that one shal not finde: except peraduenture we woulde pray for the deade, euen as Daniel, and other good Prophets, and prin∣ces of Iuda haue made confession and prayers for their sinnes, and those of their fathers and predecessors: not * 1.270 to that end that God shoulde pardon those which were al∣ready deade. For they cannot put to more, nor take away any thing from them, sith that they were alreadie before their Iudge: But they praied to that ende that God should not impute vnto them the sinnes of their fathers. Eusebi∣us. Howe shoulde he impute them? sith that he hath said by his Prophet: The sonne shall not beare the fathers * 1.271 offences, but the soule that sinneth shall dye.

Theophilus.

I doe agrée to thée, that if the father hath * 1.272 béene wicked and the sonne do turne from his iniquitie not willing to followe it, that the iniquitie of the father cannot hurt hym, no more then his righteousnesse can profite him, if the father hath béene a good man & the sonne wicked: But when the sonne is a folower of his fathers iniquitie, sith that by hys doings he alloweth it, he yel∣deth himselfe culpable not onely of his owne, but of hys fathers also, to the which he subscriveth & augmenteth it. And of those the Lord speaketh when he saith: that he wil visite the sinne of the fathers vpon the children vnto the * 1.273 thirde and fourth generation of them that hate him. Ther∣fore, when the Lordo did threaten to punish hys people, and that he yeldeth the causes of his yre and wrath, he * 1.274 checketh them not onely for the sinnes of the liuing, but heapeth together & rehearseth also al those of their aunce∣stors and predecessors. And our Lord Iesus Christ mena∣ced & threatned the Scribes & Pharises: that al the innocēt

bloud which was shedde from Abell, shall be required at * 1.275 their hands. Wherefore we must not finde it straunge, if the Prophetes and true seruants of God in their confessi∣ons & prayers, haue prayed for the sinnes of their fathers and predecessors, that they should not be called to accompt for to kindle and prouoke the wrath of God any more vp∣pon them, the which thing in like manner hath Iudas Ma∣chabeus done, as the historye witnesseth, in the which it is written, y^• they found vnder the cotes of those that were slaiue, iewels that they had taken out of the temple & from * 1.276 the Idolles of the Iamnites, which thing is for••idden the Iewes by the lawe. Then euery man saw, that this was the cause wherefore they were slaine. And so euery man gaue thanks vnto the Lorde for hys righteous iudgement which had opened the thing that was hyd. They fel downe also vnto their prayers, and besought God, that the fault which was made, might be put out of remembrance. For we cannot denye, but that sometime, for the sinne of one man alone, God punisheth all the people: As it appeareth * 1.277 in Acham. Which defiled his hands at the distruction of Iericho. But how oftentimes hath God punished the cru∣elty of the fathers and predecessors, vpon their successors and their children? as doe witnesse as well the historyes as the Prophecies of y^• Amelechites, Moabites, Amonites, Madianites, Idumeans, Babylonians and of the Israelytes themselues.

Eusebyus.

That which thou saiest should haue some shew, if that place did not make expresse mention of prayer, to the end that those that were deade shoulde be deliuered from their sinnes, as though they themselues had béene yet bound and kept in them.

Theophilus.

Although that the * 1.278 dead, in asmuch as they haue alreadie ended their course, haue no more place of repentance, nor of remedy, of whom, we haue certeine witnes in the word of God, yet neuerthe∣les bicause of the coniosiction & felowship which they haue had with their families, or with their people, there is no doubt, but that their sinnes, which do redound vpon others

in part, bicause of them, and for which it must be that o∣thers do suffer, and that their sinnes be vnto them aggra∣uated, cannot rightly be called theirs. For notwithstāding y^• for their part, they haue receiued already punishment, ne∣uertheles they kindred and familyes, as it happened vnto Achab, and to all his house. And we must not thinke that * 1.279 punishment little, sith that oftentymes, the fathers and pa∣rents do feare more the dishonour and domage vnto their children and lynage, then their owne, as we do sée some∣time by experience in those which are brought to the gal∣lowes, who although they cause thē to dye without shew∣ing mercie, yet they thinke it a greate grace and fauour, if one graunt them, that they wil not let their bodyes to hange on the Gibet, for feare of dishonour & infamy: the which yet neuertheles redoundeth more vnto their parēts & friends then vnto them. But they forget themselues: or rather they think that they do yet foele & shal féele that dis∣honour, infamye and publike shame, which shall continue to their infants and lynage. And although that they bée sufficiently tormented with their euill, yet neuerthelesse they féele a great ease and refreshing if they vnderstande that their children haue none euill: & their torment is ag∣grauated and increased, if they vnderstande the contra∣rie. For that cause the Prophetes doe threaten not one∣ly the wicked sort of their owne ruine and distruction, but doe foreshewe vnto them that of their children, and the euilles whiche shall happen vnto them, as it appea∣reth in the prophecy of Esaie against Babylon, and others * 1.280 like. But for to stoppe all those euills, and for to appaise the wrath of God kindled vpon vs, as well for our sinnes as those of our fathers, there is no better prayers nor of∣frings then to runne with true repentance & amendemēt of life, to implore his mercy. Behold the good prayers for y^• deade, to that ende that their sinnes be not counted wish ours. Although that it be after whatsoeuer manner & 〈◊〉〈◊〉 wilt take that place, it sufficeth móe at this present,

to haue shewed vnto thée, that thou canst not by the same proue thy purgatory, although that the booke shoulde bée of the holy scripture. And if thou wilt giue vnto it any credit, it may better serue thée, for to proue the Lymbe if there be one then the Purgatory. But sith that Iesus Christ is come and that you confesse that he hath drawen the ••athers from the Lymbes, the example of Iudas Ma∣chabeus can haue no more place among you: sith that ac∣cording * 1.281 to your doctrine, the cause is ceased.

Eusebius,

Put case, that there were no more neither Lymbe nor Purgatory, can we not at the least pray for the resurrecti∣on of the deade? And for the seconde comming of Iesus Christ, the which we doe looke for, as well as the auncy∣ent fathers haue prayed for the first, and haue desired and sighed after it?

Theophilus.

We may well pray, as I haue alreadye saide, and aske of God, all that which apperteyneth to the perfection of his kingdome: But to make prayers which are called prayers for the deade, and to pray in per∣ticuler, * 1.282 that God woulde raise vp againe the bodyes of those which are deade, and that Iesus Christ would soone come to iudgement, I haue no commaundement of God, nor example in all the holy scripture, but rather to the contrary. For when the Lorde aunswered vnto the soules of the saints (which complayned of their persecutors) that they shoulde ••arry vntill the number of their bretheren were fulfilled, he doth sufficiently shewe by the same, that he hath prefered the tyme, the which cannot be plucked nor driuen backe. And sith that the thing is altogether certeine and that we are alreadie all assured, what néede is it then to make perticuler praiers?

Eusebius.

We are as∣much assured, that all thinges which ought to come, are passed by the counsell of God, and that he will giue vs * 1.283 all that which shalbe requisite to our helth and saluation: that all the haires of our heade are numbred: and none shall fall to the grounde without his wyll: and his king∣dome * 1.284 shall shall come and shall be exalted aboue all creatures,

but we may not leaue off therefore to pray continually •• to demaunde those thinges of God.

Theophilus.

It is an other thing of vs, which are yet in our voiage & earthly peregrination, •• of those which haue alreadie ended their course: vnto whome we can no more add too nor dimynish. For all the while that we are yet in the battaile, we may empaire or amende, and we haue alwayes néede to inuo∣cate and call for the aide of God, both for vs and for our bretheren which are yet in combate & fight with vs. And which is more, God commaundeth vs so to do: not that he * 1.285 knoweth not better then we, what we do lacke, before we do aske, and that hee is not willing to giue it vs, but hee doth it for to hold and kéepe vs in his feare, & to learne vs to sanctifie his name & to exercise our faith towards him, and our loue towardes our neighboure, whilest that wée may serue him in this mortall peregrination. But after that the voctorie is gotten or lost, and that one is once come and arriued to the hauen and port, to which he must go, the cause and the occasion is no more such.

Eusebius.

Thou hast saide before that the soules of the blessed and the verye Angels were not yet in their full glorie. Also wee cannot denye, but that the bodies of the faithfull that are deade are yet kept in death, sith that they are in corruption, from the which they shal not be * 1.286 deliuered vntill their resurrection, that death shalbe al∣together abolished. What euill is it then to pray for the deade, that their bodie may be deliuered from corruption, and that they may haue their perfect consummation in bo∣die and soule.

Theophilus.

I haue alreadie satisfied thée in that, if thou vnderstandest what difference there is betwéene the lyuing and the deade. And although we had none other thing but that, the scripture maketh no expresse commasi∣dement, that ought to suffice thée, For if it were a questi∣on * 1.287 to worke subtilly and sophistically in the worde of god, I shoulde well haue asmuch reason to put forth, that wée must make prayers in perticuler, for the virgin Marye:

for all the Prophets, Apostles, Saints, and Saintes of Paradise: Yea for the Angells, and for Iesus Christ himselfe.

Hilla••ius.

It shoulde be requisite then by that ac∣compt, to make out of hand a newe Letany. In stéede where the Pr••estes do sing, saint Michael, pray for vs: * 1.288 saint Mary mother of God, pray for vs: saint Peter, pray for vs: and so consequently of others, we must say, O Lorde we pray and beseech thée, for saint Michael, saint Gabriel, saint Mary, saint Peter, saint Paul, ••nd ••or all the saints and saintes of Paradise, that thou do put them in full ••oye, and perfect ••elicitie, and that th••u ••aise vp their bodyes to eternall glorie.

Theophilus.

If our d••e examine well the greatest part of the prayers, which the priestes make for the deade, euen as they are written in their Messell and Breuiaries, one shalbe constrained ••o confesse that such prayers cannot be made in the name of others then of those whome they do inuocate and call vpon in their Letanyes, and that they be of like conditi∣on.

Hillarius.

I haue heard the Cordeliers mocke at Fri∣er * 1.289 Christofer, which was one of their order and couent, b••cause that he did sing the Masse of Requiem, for the Saints and Saintes of Paradise. But if he had knowen howe to defende his cause, it had not béene without rea∣s••n. For he might haue verie wel alledged for his war∣rant, the Memento of the dead, and almost all the masse of Requiem, and other like prayers which seemed not to haue ••en made to any other end, then to pray for y^• saints which are in rest. This ma••ster Dector who would find out for vs a newe manner to pray for the dead, vnder ••o∣lour of the resurrection & of the cōming of Iesus Christ, it came well for him, for to mainte••••e & vphold his cause against the other Cordeliers, which mocked him.

Thomas.

Of what Couent was that Frier Christofer:

Hillarius.

Of the Couent of Riue at Geneua.

Thomas,

Wherfore did he sing y^e Masse of Requiem, for the saintes?

Hillarius

Thou oughtest to vnderstand that he was a man so ex∣pert in Theology, and so wel exercised in bookes, that he knewe not very well how to reade in his owne Missell and Brauerie. Wherefore he could sing but the Masse of Requiem, the which with great laboure he had learned by rote of heart, and it serued him as a plaister for all sores, and diseases.

Theophilus.

He did better then all y^e others. For as there is but one baptisme of Iesus Christ * 1.290 and not the baptisme of saint Peter, of S. Paul, nor of a∣ny other whatsoeuer it be, so there is but one supper of Iesus Christ. There is not of saint Fraunces, saint Ty∣baud, saint Roch, and of other like innumerable. Nowe if the Masse be in stéede of the supper, there ought to bée but one: and we ought not to say the Masse of saint Paul, saint Iames and of other saints, no more then of the supper and of the Baptisme.

Thomas.

And howe dyd he make his masse of Requiem agrée with the saints?

Hillarius.

In stéede where others doe name those, in whose name they do sing the Masse in their Mementos and Oremus, he dyd but chaunge the names, and name those of the saints vnder the tytle of which he ought to sing Masse, euen as he should haue done for one that is dead. Tho∣mas. I doe vnderstand his practise nowe. He was not al∣together without wit. And as much y^• Masse of Requiem serued him all alone, as all the other did to his compagni∣ons.

Hillarius.

All one.

Thomas.

But who is that doctor of whō thou speakest off?

Hillarius.

It is Monsiour the * 1.291 doubtful, which is come out of the Charbo••iere or Cole∣house of Parys, I would haue said from Sorbonne. Tho∣mas.

What is his name?

Hillarius.

I would name hym but y^• I feare I shal do him pleasure.

Thomas.

Pleasure? nay rather displeasure?

Hillarius.

I doe not tel scorne to speake, For thou oughtest to vnderstand, that the man, of whom I haue told thée is so much ambitious & couetous of name & fame, that it is al one to him, so that men speake of him.

And I beléeue, that if hée coulde obteine that by a∣ny such prooues, as that of Herostratus, who burned the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of Diana the Ephesian, for to make himselfe to * 1.292 〈◊〉〈◊〉 spoken off, he woulde doe no lesse. And I woulde to God that he did no worse, then he. For Herostratus bur∣ned a temple full of Idols, which caused al Asia to com∣mit Idolatrie. But this fellowe here, as the Gyants dyd, * 1.293 would make war against the heauen: fight against God: burne his temple, and resist the holy Ghost, and the truth that he hath knowen.

Theophilus.

He hath very well de∣clared it in all places where he hath beene: But god hath alwayes confounded him, with all his enterprises. God haue mercy on him, except he be of those which sinne vn∣to death, for whom saint Iohn hath writtē that we must * 1.294 not pray for. I can giue him no fitter a name, then that of Ismael, whose hand is against al men, and al mens hands against him.

Hillarius.

It is impossible to finde out a better comparison. For he could neuer agrée with any man, among those with whom he hath liued & dwelled, whether thy were Gospellers or papistes: but hath trou∣bled them all, and they haue béene constrayned to chase and driue him away from them, as a plague and troubler of the Church.

Theophilus.

Therefore the true church of Iesus Christ hath béene constrayned to driue him out of hir house, * 1.295 euē as Sara did driue away Ismael with his mother Agar, bicause that he mocked hir sonne Isaac, in such manner * 1.296 as this fellowe here alwayes mocked the true children of God. And therefore the Church could not acknoledge him for hir lawfull sonne, but sent him out after his mother Agar. For he is more fitter for the Sinagog, then for the Church.

Hillarius.

What thinkest thou, who hath induced and persuaded him to propounde so many curious, vaine and vnprofitable questions, for to trouble that poore church of Lausanne, of which he thought to haue beene made bishop, * 1.297 and was alreadie by his imagination. Bicause that hée

was already olde, and that he had a gray heard, I am a∣bashed how that he could not thincke well y^• those subtile Sorbonists did not agrée with that poore Church, the which was yet tender and newly planted, and but a grasse.

Theophilus.

I doe leaue the iudgement of the heart * 1.298 vnto God, who knoweth it: But as farre as I can iudge by his workes, and by his beginning, procéeding and en∣ding, I cannot perceiue and vnderstand but that hée dyd it for two causes chiefly. Firste to please the Papistes, * 1.299 euen as the Apostles of the circumcision went about and endeuoured themselues to please the Iewes, and to holde with them, for to auoide the crosse and persecution, and to haue their fauour, and for to make the true Apo∣stles of Iesus Christ more odious vnto all the world. The other is, for to shew himselfe, and for to get the brute and report that he was a wise man, more expert and of more knowledge, then all other preachers, and that there was * 1.300 none that searched out and vnderstood the holy Scripture so profoundly as hée. For he was angry that he dyd sée others, which had put their life in daunger for the glory of God, and the edifiyng of the Church to be of some estima∣tion towards the good. And therefore he would inuent a certein new fashion, proper vnto himselfe alone, to the end that he should not séeme that he had brought no new thing, but that he had learned some thing of others. Therefore he was ashamed to follow their way, and went about but to renue all things, for to let men to vnderstande, that all that which others had made, was nothing worth, but that he was the great reformer of Churches, and yet neuerthe∣lesse be toke no care to reforme the wicked manners.

Hillarius.

I haue vnderstanded that he called the good ministers, skirmishers, who, for to aduance the gospel, haue * 1.301 broken the first I••e or giuē the first onset, and which haue put their heades, there where he dareth not to put his litle finger.

Theophilus.

Also he himselfe hath sayd, in dispising others, that he was not of those small skirmishers. But it was answered him to the contray, that he auailed then no∣thing

in warre, & that he was not worthy to be taken for a good souldier: For a good champion must know to doo all thinges, and that he must bée found amongest the blowes and in the skirmishes and alaromes, not onely at the retraict, and to receiue wages. He dispised the simplici∣tie of the holy Scripture, and calleth the Theology infe∣riour and base, and would forge and inuent for vs a meta∣phisicall * 1.302 Theology.

Hillarius.

Also peraduenture he would by the same as wel extract the fifth essence of the holy Scriptures, as the Alcumists do of mettals. At the least, I doubt not but that it will happen of his metaphisicall Theology, as of the Al∣cumy, which hath a faire shew & to be of great value, but it consumeth away into smoke. He speaketh neuertheles against the Purgatory of Priestes. Wherefore I am a∣bashed of that which I haue heard spoken, that at this pre∣sent he endeuoureth himselfe to set it vpp againe in that poore towne of Metz, y^• which he is gone to trouble, when he vnderstood that Iesus Christ would raigne there: But I greatly doubt, that the kitchin constraineth him to the same. For otherwise the har••th woulde be colde. But hée may as well doe that, as to be angry & pleased againe, and so many times to chaunge and rechaunge his coate.

Theophilus.

We may well make him such a monster, as * 1.303 Eusebius Cesariensis did make of the Philosopher Arche∣silaus, in his bookes of the preparation of the Gospell, and * 1.304 to compare it to him, of whom he writeth in these words. They sayd of him, that as touchinge his fore partes, hée was Plato, and as to the hinder partes, Pyrro, & the middle Diodorus. For he hath troubled and marred the eloquence of Plato, thorow the subtilties and sophistries of the Phi∣losopher Diodorus, and by the subtile disputations of Pyr∣rho: and now saying this, by and by that, he was easily rolled and lead now héere and now there, as a man not knowing any thing, and hauinge no rest: And yet neuer∣thelesse he séemeth thorow the shadow of eloquence, that he knoweth much: & he was neuer in that minde, y^• he would

say twice one thing, and that hee woulde abide firme and steedfast in one opinion. For hée estéemed not a man to be ingenious and wittie, which preserued & continued in one matter and doctrine. And therefore he was called a cauil∣ler, sophister and troubler, which knew nothing, and would not y^• others should perceiue any thing. He troubled eue∣ry one thorow his sophistries, & was as the serpent called * 1.305 Hydra, which hath seauen heads: But he cutteth them off with his owne swoord, speaking agaynst & gainsaying his owne Doctrine, denying that whiche hee hath affirmed, and destroyinge that whiche hee before hath buyl∣ded.

Hillarius.

It is impossible to painte him out better. For * 1.306 he is as a Gerion with thrée bodies. He is a Papist, an E∣uangelist and a Lutherian. He is a Sophister and a Sor∣bonist, and yet he would be accompted for a faithfull and a Christian, and holdeth himselfe neither to the one nor yet to the other. Hydra had neuer so many heads, as hée hath of opinions contrary the one to the other, and hée néeded none other Hercules for to cut them off, then him∣selfe. For the truth which GOD hath compelled him to speake, as vnto the wicked spiri••es, is a Hercules suffici∣ent * 1.307 inough for to vanquish the false doctrine, that he now mainteineth.

Theophilus.

By the same thou maist know the studye * 1.308 of Sathan, and how many wayes he transfigureth him∣selfe into an Angell of light: and what is the nature of the * 1.309 false Prophets. God by all his Prophets & Apostles hath commended to vs the faith in him, and the loue towardes * 1.310 the liuing, without making any mention y^• we shuld haue care of the dead. The Diuell to the contrarye, by his false Prophetes and Apostles, endeuoureth himselfe with all his power, to drawe vs from the fayth, vnto vayne Ceremonies, and from the care that wée ought to haue of the liuinge and of the poore members of IESUS CHRIST, which with vs doe suffer want and indi∣gence, for to make vs staye after the deade. They

bring them meat and drinke, and suffer the poore Christi∣an bretheren which are round about them to dye for hun∣ger. This miserable Doctor, perceiuing that he could not * 1.311 ther where he was, maintein the Purgatory of y^• Priests, and their broiling of soules, be would set vp a new Purga∣tory for the body. But when he perceiued that he could not bring it about, he is retourned to cary a coale to the same * 1.312 of the Priests, for to heate it againe. Wherein he mani∣festly declareth, what faith and conscience he hath, & how much one ought to trust to his doctrine.

Hillarius.

Mée thinketh, that he should haue no lesse appearance, to build a Purgatory for the body, then the Priestes to haue buil∣ded one for the soules. For if there be any reason, where∣fore the soules ought to suffer for their sinnes, after that man is dead, me thinketh that the body ought not to bée quit and frée, but that he hath more merited it, bicause that he was the occasion thorow his flesh, and the instrument for to make the soulé to sinne. Wherefore if you thincke Eusebius, that God should be vniust, as thou hast alledged, if he doe not punish the soules of the sinners in Purgato∣ry, he should be no lesse, if he doe not punish the bodyes in lyke manner, which haue ben alwayes companions & in∣struments to the soules, in all the sinnes that they haue committed. And therefore God wil not onely punish the soules of the reprobate in hel fire, but the bodies also: euen as be will glorifie the elect in body and soule, in the resur∣rection of the Iustes.

Theophilus.

Also this good Doctor would giue vs to vnderstand, sithence y^• he hath entred into that dreaming, that all the prayers which the Church made in the name of the dead, were for the bodyes, and for their resurrec∣tion, and not for the soules: and condempneth the Priestes and their Purgatory, and be made no doubt to saye, that we must pray for the Saintes: for Saint Peter, S. Paul, and the others, in such sence as he vnderstandeth, euen as it hath bene touched.

Thomas,

I doe vnderstand well of whom you speake.

I remember, that at the disputation which was holden at Lausanne, he spake cléerely, not onely against the Purga∣tory of Priestes, but also against the transubstanciacion and corporall presence of Iesus Christ in the hoast.

Theophilus.

It is true, but in the meane time, thou takest no héede of the subtiltie of Sathan, and by what means he would be serued of that Sorbonist doctors. Bi∣cause y^• Sathan did sée those errors to be already too much vncouered and opened, & that hée had no more hope to vp∣hold them, chiefely in those Churches héere aboutes, hée hath chosen this instrument, for to set foorth that opinion, the which could not serue to any edification, but for to trou∣ble the Church, chiefly in this time now, that the opini∣ons of men are so diuerse, For how goodly a reason soeuer he can alledge, notwithstanding that he condempneth o∣penly the Purgatory of the Priestes, and their suffrages for the dead, yet neuerthelesse, sith that hée putteth foorth that proposition: we must praye for the dead: It were impossible, but that in euery pointe, it should he euill spo∣ken * 1.313 off and offensiue. For the Idolaters and superstitions, which were yet in their olde errour, touching that mat∣ter, doe drawe that proposition to their aduauntage, to the confirmation of their Purgatory, and care not for all his other reasons and sophistries, the which the most part can∣not vnderstand, others wil not. It is mough for them that they can say: Monsieur the Doctor hath preached, that we must pray for the dead. They doe arme themselues with that proposition, against the truth, as with a buckler, and doe condemne more boldly the holesome doctrine. The other poore simple people, which haue already some know∣ledwe of the abuses, were not also without being troubled, fearing to haue ben euill taught. For all could not easily comprehend those sophisticall subtilties, but doe abide in perplexitie. Notwithstanding that that dreame which hée did put foorth, was not newe: It hath alreadye at an o∣ther time bene put foorth by others, the which yet ne∣uerthelesse they haue not followed. Those which were

best instructed and most firme in the doctrine of the Gos∣pell, although that they had their spirites sharpe inough for to comprehend that which they sayd, yet they were not out of daunger. For sith that this proposition abideth and con∣tinneth: we must pray for the dead: And this héere, the Church hath alwayes duely p••ayde for them that they should be deliuered from death: it was much to be feared, that by succession of time, but that they should fall againe to the first errour, and that the Diuell which was driuen away, would retourne againe with seauen other wicked spirites, worse then the first. For after that the vnder∣standing of man hath bene corrupted thorowe some false opinion, he is easy to fall agayne, and to withdrawe from * 1.314 his purpose all that whiche approcheth any thinge at all.

Hillarius.

I doubt not, but that the same was the marke, to which Sathan pretented: the which he hath yet better declared, when be induced and perswaded that poore man to returne againe, as the dogge, to eate that which he had vomited, and to bay and ••arke agaynst the ministers of the truth, enforcing and endeuouring himselfe to reedif••e the errours and heresies, which he had before condempned and destroyed.

Theophilus.

It is a great deale better that he declared himselfe what he was, then to dwell in the Church of Iesus Christ for to trouble it, and to ende that that he hath taken in hande. For in stéede, whereas before they did but sing Masse for the dead, whome they presumed to bée deteined and kepte in Purgatorye, they must also sing Masse and offer for the Saintes which are in Paradise, according to his Theologye. For it shoulde haue bene as easie to giue coulour vnto such Masses, as the scholasticall Doctors doe giue vnto those which they doe singe in the name of younge children, which are dead in their innocencie, immediately after their baptisme. * 1.315

Thomas.

What néede haue they? For I beléeue that they will not denye, but that they accompte them for saued.

Theophilus.

They confesse that they are in Paradise? * 1.316 and that they haue no néede to doe it for their saluation: But they affirme that it is good yet neuerthelsse to singe Masse for them, for to signifie & witnesse y^• they are of the Church, & members of his misticall body. And so by that meanes, the Priestes cannot fayle to get money of euery side, both of the olde and younge: or vnder the title of Purgatory, or of the communion of the Church, or of the resurrection of the body, or of the consummation of the eternall selicitie. In so dooing, they must yet at the ende come to pray for Iesus Christ, and to singe masses for him, as for his members, vntill such time as his kingdome hée fully consummated and ended, and that he hath put all his enimies vnder his footstoole.

Thomas,

Now I haue heard al your matters and wel considered of them, I knowe that we haue bene meruai∣lously abused, Wherefore from hencefoorth I remit and forgiue the Priestes, I will staye my selfe but onelye to the pure word of GOD. As touchinge my voyage, I am come backe agayne. I haue séene that which I desired to knowe. I thincke that Eusebius is as much pressed and ouercome as I, and that hee hath no more greater har∣neys nor weapons for to defend his Purgatorye nor his Lymbes, Eusebius. It is most certeine that I haue my spirit much troubled with so many matters, and not with∣out cause. But neuerthelesse I haue not yet all disployed and shewed foorth my argumentes & reasons. You haue nowe robbed me of the place whiche I haue propounded vnto you of the booke of the Machabees, vnder the tytle that it was Apocripha: But those that I will pro∣pound vnto you now, shalbée taken out of bookes so Au∣tentickes and Canonicall, that you can by no meanes reiect them. And if you can shewe by euydent reasons, that I dooe not alledge them to the purpose, and that they do serue mée nothing at all for to proue my inten∣tion, I will confesse my selfe vanquished, and wyll giue you my hand for to be of your side.

Hillarius,

What pretendest thou to mainteine by them, either the Lymbe of the young children, and the baptisme of women: or the Lymbe of the auncient fathers: or the Purgatory? For Theophilus hath ouerthrowne this day all that.

Eusebius.

Thou shalt vnderstande it, when thou shalt heare it. But at this time we haue sufficiently inough discussed of the matters at one time, and there r••∣maineth yet inough for a good while. Yet neuerthelesse I doe hope that we shall sée the ende.

Thomas.

I desire the same very much, and that wée may agrée as soone as shalbe possible, that we may all abide and continue of one good resolution.

Theophilus.

God giue vs his grace, as I hope hée will.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Pro. 17. d. 28 Iudgement by the vvorld.
• * 1.2

  Apothegma.
• * 1.3

  Cōmon pro••erb
• * 1.4

  The incredulity of Thomas Iohn. 20. ••••••.
• * 1.5

  S. Patricks wels
• * 1.6

  The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Psa. 119. c. 05.
• * 1.7

  The gates of dreames.
• * 1.8

  The gate of Iuory & horne
• * 1.9

  The dreames of the Saints & of the erring The∣ologisters
• * 1.10

  The spirite of Bacchus
• * 1.11

  〈…〉〈…〉
• * 1.12

  The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Psa. 119. c. 105.
• * 1.13

  The gates of dreames.
• * 1.14

  The gate of Iuory & herne
• * 1.15

  The dreames of the Saints & of the e••ring The∣ologisters
• * 1.16

  The spirite of Bacchus
• * 1.17

  2. Mach. 12. g. 43.
• * 1.18

  The value of the thousand Dragmas
• * 1.19

  The authoritie of the bookes of the Machabces.
• * 1.20

  Books canonical & Apocripha.
• * 1.21

  The iudgement of saint Hierom touching the bookes of the Machabee••. Hiero. Pauli.
• * 1.22

  Ioseph y^• anthor of the bookes of the Machabees
• * 1.23

  The bookes of Ioseph.
• * 1.24

  De ciui. Dei. li 18. ca. 36
• * 1.25

  Martirs bescre the comming of Iesus Christ
• * 1.26

  The Machabees 2. Mac. 7. a. 1 Antiochus
• * 1.27

  The legends of Saints Dist. 15. ca. sancta.
• * 1.28

  Luc. 24. g. 44.
• * 1.29

  The Canons the Apostles. Dsti. 16. casex againta. & can canoner propter.
• * 1.30

  Dist. 16. ca. ••∣none. Glos. at••
• * 1.31

  The e••onicall bookes.
• * 1.32

  Apocrypha.
• * 1.33

  Vnto whom the iudgement of the scriptures do ap¦pertcine
• * 1.34

  Legitimation.
• * 1.35

  The authoritie of the Church.
• * 1.36

  The authoritie of the scripture
• * 1.37

  Psa. 19 c 9
• * 1.38

  The seconde bookes of the Machabees.
• * 1.39

  The sangnage of the Prophets
• * 1.40

  The last Pro∣phets.
• * 1.41

  The authoritie of the Prophets and Apostles
• * 1.42

  Gal. 1, b. 8
• * 1.43

  The vvstnesse of God.
• * 1.44

  Ad Chroma. dist 5. ca. sācta.
• * 1.45

  The place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all for Purg•• ••ory.
• * 1.46

  Purgatory be∣fore the com∣ming of Christ.
• * 1.47

  Luc. 16. c. 19.
• * 1.48

  The Limbe.
• * 1.49

  The reason vp∣pon which Pur¦gatory is buil∣ded.
• * 1.50

  Hipocrites en∣uious of the grace of God Luc. 15. g. 28. Examples of y^e mercy of God.
• * 1.51

  Lu••. 23. l. 4••.
• * 1.52

  Priuiledge
• * 1.53

  Saluation by priuiledge Rom. 3. 9.
• * 1.54

  Payne for satis∣faction.
• * 1.55

  The only death of Iesus Christ doth satisfie.
• * 1.56

  Cypr. lib. 4. de bapismo l••. sent 4. dist. 4. sunt.
• * 1.57

  The greatnes of the paynes of Purgatory.
• * 1.58

  Dist. 25. ca. A∣postolus. Tho. 4. dist. 21. a••. 1. Ric. 4. dist. 20. arg. 2. A••ber. 7. li. com theo. ca. 2. Bona. 4. dist. 18 Plutar. l••. de se∣ra. numi. vind.
• * 1.59

  Fable of Gre∣gory. Bart. fer. 4. heb. 4. quadrag. Ser, de poen. purg.
• * 1.60

  Fable of These∣us and Pyrothus Verg. Aene. 6.
• * 1.61

  Difference be∣vveene the fire of purgatory & of hell. Ric. 4. dist. 20. arg. 2. Bonau••n. 4. dist. 18. Albet. 7. li. com pe. tha. ca. 2. Thom. 4. dist. 21. arg. 1. & 3 er. q. 46. ar. 6.
• * 1.62

  Barl. serm de p••na Purg. example Anto. •• par. sū.
• * 1.63

  Mans reason y^e foundacion of Purgatory.
• * 1.64

  The Iustice and mercy of God.
• * 1.65

  Esa. 9. b. 6 Iohn. 3. d. 34. Rom. 3. 24. Gala. 3. d. 2••.
• * 1.66

  Punishment for sinnes.
• * 1.67

  Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12 Iohn. 15. Gala. 3. ••••
• * 1.68

  Iohn. 3. d. 36
• * 1.69

  The revvard of good deades.
• * 1.70

  Mat. 3. ••••••
• * 1.71

  Purgatory the nourse of sinne.
• * 1.72

  Good vvorkes.
• * 1.73

  Collo. 3. d. 22.
• * 1.74

  VVorkes, Hipocrites.
• * 1.75

  The God of the Hipocrites
• * 1.76

  Friendes of the kitchin.
• * 1.77

  Difference be∣tweene the L•••• he. Purgatory and hell.
• * 1.78

  The hell of the Origenists and Catabaptists
• * 1.79

  Esa. ••••. g. 24 Mat. 25. d. 46 Mar•• 9. 8. 48. Apo. 14. c. ••l.
• * 1.80

  The payne of the Limbe
• * 1.81

  The payne of Purgatory
• * 1.82

  Three helles.
• * 1.83

  Poena damni. & poena sensus Leo de viim. ser uim sest. mort.
• * 1.84

  Io. Maio. 4. sent dist. 44. q. 1.
• * 1.85

  Barl. serm. de poen. infer.
• * 1.86

  Abrahams bosme. Luc. 16. c. 12
• * 1.87

  Two vvayes onely
• * 1.88

  Mat. 7. b. 13. Luc. 13. c. 24 Marc. 16. c. 16.
• * 1.89

  Luc. 16. f. 26.
• * 1.90

  Gene. 1. 13. 16 Gene. 15. b. 6 Rom. 4. a. •• Gal. 3. 2. 6
• * 1.91

  Limbus. Signification of the Limbe
• * 1.92

  Aene. 2. 4.
• * 1.93

  The lycence of the Theologiās
• * 1.94

  Pedlers French
• * 1.95

  The suburbs of hell and of Pa∣radise.
• * 1.96

  Lembus lembe. Plaut. in Mar∣ca & Bacch. Liut. li. 8. bel. punt. & 1. ab vng. Gene •• d. 23. 1. Pet. 3. d c
• * 1.97

  The Limbe of the Infants
• * 1.98

  Aene. 6.
• * 1.99

  A question of the infants of the Hebrevves dead vvithout circumcision Gene. 17. b. 10.
• * 1.100

  The opinion of Lumbard. •••• sent. 4. dist. 1. St vero. Dist. 4. ca. ne∣cesserum. & ca filius. ••ka. de sacra.
• * 1.101

  Vnde versus ex chan. de sacram Nullus aborttn. us, null•••• niss fonte renatus: Infra sancta de•• debet sepel••r•• vt an lex.
• * 1.102

  Beda. Sant. 4. dist. 1. S•• vero. Iohn. ••. a. ••.
• * 1.103

  Gene. 17. c. 14
• * 1.104

  Sent. 4. dist. 1. S•• vero.
• * 1.105

  Rebellion and dispising the cōmaundement of God.
• * 1.106

  〈◊〉〈◊〉. 15. d. ••••
• * 1.107

  Necessitie
• * 1.108

  Gene••. 17. 2. ••
• * 1.109

  Iul••. 4. sent.
• * 1.110

  Circumcision deferred
• * 1.111

  Iosua. 5. 2. 2
• * 1.112

  Genes. 17. 2. 7 Rom. 4. b. 11.
• * 1.113

  Exo. 13. b. 12
• * 1.114

  S••auation vvith out exteriour sacraments
• * 1.115

  Cornellus. Act. 10. f. 44.
• * 1.116

  Honour vnto y^• sacraments. Daniel. 9. a
• * 1.117

  Mat. 3. c. 13
• * 1.118

  The gentiles sa∣ued vvithout circumcision Ion. 35. 3. & 4 4. Reg. 5. a. d 14 4. Reg. 24. a Iob. 43.
• * 1.119

  Sichemites Genes. 34. d. 26
• * 1.120

  Mat. 12. a 1 Mar. 2. d. 27 Luc. G. a. 5 Iohn. 7. c. 22
• * 1.121

  The question of the Theologiās Gers in Flo. de baptis ca de t••s na de con. dist. 4. ca. ad. lunina 30. q. 1.
• * 1.122

  The cōdition of he children of the christians.
• * 1.123

  2. Tim. 2. c. 19
• * 1.124

  Mat. 21. a 9 Mare 11. b. 10. Luc. 19 f 38.
• * 1.125

  Consolation and comfort in A∣brahams bosome
• * 1.126

  Luc. 10. f. 25.
• * 1.127

  Rom. 14. c. 17
• * 1.128

  Iohn. 3. a. 5
• * 1.129

  VVhether bap∣tisme with vva∣ter be necessary to saluation
• * 1.130

  Marc 16. c. 16.
• * 1.131

  Marc. 16. c. c. 16.
• * 1.132

  Saluation and health bound vnto the ele∣ments
• * 1.133

  Sent. 4. dist. 4. Sunt.
• * 1.134

  Saluation vvith ou•• visible baptisme De ciuit. Dei. li. 13. ca. 7 De con. dist. 4 baptismi. De vni bap. ••••. 4 li. 4. de bap. glo. de cons. dist. 4. b••ptism••. & Cypris. Baptisme of de•• ••otion Vnde versus ex Io. chan de sa∣cra. Indan••••••rreus, contritus ad ••••. mina templi. Si tibi defuerint aqua, presbyter & moriatur.
• * 1.135

  Firmiter in Cristum credēs saluabitur ille. Rom. 10. b. 9
• * 1.136

  De con. dist. 4. c. baptismi. Sent. 4. dist. 4.
• * 1.137

  Valentinian. Ambro. de obit. Valent.
• * 1.138

  Gene. 25. c. 22 ••ere. 1. ••. 5 Lu••. 1. f. 64 Rom. 10 Gal. ••. c. 15
• * 1.139

  Io••••s. 6. f. 33
• * 1.140

  Ansegisus.
• * 1.141

  Error of the Bohemians and Morauians
• * 1.142

  The supper giue to infants by Cy¦prian & Origen
• * 1.143

  Iohn. 6. f. 5
• * 1.144

  Aug. li. 21. de cius. Dei Error about the Supper
• * 1.145

  Regeneration Exposition of the place of saint Iohn 3
• * 1.146

  1. Peter. 1. d. 23 2. Cor. d. 17 1. Cor. 15. f. 45
• * 1.147

  Iohn. 3. 2. 3
• * 1.148

  To be borne of vvater
• * 1.149

  1. Cor. 15. f. 47
• * 1.150

  Iohn. 3. a. 6.
• * 1.151

  To baptise with the holy Ghost and vvith fire. Mat. 3 c. 11.
• * 1.152

  Indians
• * 1.153

  The holy ghost is a fire.
• * 1.154

  Act. 2. a. 3
• * 1.155

  Holy Ghost vvater
• * 1.156

  Heb. 6. b. 7
• * 1.157

  Esa. 44. ••. 1 Ezech. 36. g. 33.
• * 1.158

  Act. 2. 2. 1
• * 1.159

  Ioel. 2. g. 29
• * 1.160

  Iohn. 4. b. 14 & 7. f. 38
• * 1.161

  In. Io. ca. 3 hom. 24.
• * 1.162

  The stile of the scripture & of the auncient Doctors tou∣ching the sacra∣ments
• * 1.163

  Sent. 4. dist. 4. His autem.
• * 1.164

  The exposition of the schoole∣men vpon the place of the 3. chapter of Saint ••ohn
• * 1.165

  Three sortes of baptisme
• * 1.166

  De cons. dist. 4. ca. baptis. Glos. ss. Bap.
• * 1.167

  Sent. 4. dist. 4. His autem Aug. de vni bap
• * 1.168

  Iohn. ••••. c. 25
• * 1.169

  Obiection of the necessitie of baptisme Aug. ad Fortu∣nat. De cons. dist. 4. ca. Cathecume∣nian.
• * 1.170

  Cathecumenes.
• * 1.171

  Sent. 4. dist. 4. q. 1. ca. 10. 〈◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊〉 aur. ope. de ver•• contra 〈◊〉〈◊〉 1. p••••ce.
• * 1.172

  Sent. 4. dist. 4. His autem. Solution.
• * 1.173

  Saluation vvith ou•• baptisme.
• * 1.174

  Aug. li. de fide. ad Pet. & in Eccle. do. ca. 44.
• * 1.175

  Aug. in leui. q. 88.
• * 1.176

  Sent. ••. dist. ••. q. ••. cas. 10 Baptisme of bl••••le
• * 1.177

  The sentence of Saint Angust•• touching the children that die vvithout bap∣tisme L••. de fid. ad pe∣••re dia. De cons. dist. 4. ca. Fer••missume
• * 1.178

  The Limbe of the young in∣fants destroyed
• * 1.179

  The hangm•• of in••ants
• * 1.180

  Errors about the Sacraments
• * 1.181

  Anabaptists
• * 1.182

  Baptism delaied
• * 1.183

  Chris••. in epist. ad Hebr. De cons. dist. 4. ca. quando
• * 1.184

  To baptise twice in a yere.
• * 1.185

  De cons. dist. 4.
• * 1.186

  Pelagians.
• * 1.187

  Original sinne
• * 1.188

  Psa. 51. •• 27
• * 1.189

  Io••n. ••. 2. ••
• * 1.190

  Signes and fi∣gures for the things ligned & figured
• * 1.191

  Gal. 3. d 27 The sayth of Simon Act. 8. b. 13.
• * 1.192

  Our Lady of butter.
• * 1.193

  〈◊〉〈◊〉 of vvomen
• * 1.194

  Ministers of Sacraments
• * 1.195

  Mat. ••8. d 18
• * 1.196

  1. Cor. 14, ••. 34 1. Timo. 2. d. 1•• Ecclesiastical offices.
• * 1.197

  ••. Cor. 14. g. 40
• * 1.198

  Rom. 10, d. 17
• * 1.199

  Rom. 14, d, 23
• * 1.200

  Mat. 21, c. 25 Mar, 11, d, 30 Luc, 2••, ••, 4
• * 1.201

  vvomen priestes Martionistes Epiph. Tom. 3. lib. 1. contr. Mart. h••. 42 De cons. dist. 4. ca. Baptisandi, & constat. Mul••er. E•• con••. Car•••• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 30. q. 3. Super quis. Vnde versus ex Chans. de Sacra. Baptizat. lai∣cus, multer si mors t••meatur. Est tamen of∣ficium solum modo presby∣terorum. Mortis in peri∣culo sufficit omnis homo.
• * 1.202

  D•• c••••s. dist. 4. in neces••••tate August. contr. parm••. li. 2. c••. 13.
• * 1.203

  The ••ouncel of Africa. C••nc. Carth. 4. C••••. 100.
• * 1.204

  The example of Zipphora. Exo. 4. f. 25.
• * 1.205

  The examples of the Saincts ought not to be all dravven into a generall con∣sequence
• * 1.206

  The Limbe of the Fathers.
• * 1.207

  One onely church and eter∣nall.
• * 1.208

  Heb. ••••. c. ••
• * 1.209

  1. Cor. 10. 23.
• * 1.210

  Difference be∣tvvene the old and nevve Testament.
• * 1.211

  2. Cor. 3. c. 1••
• * 1.212

  Act. ••. ••.
• * 1.213

  Difference be∣tvvene the dead vnder the olde and nevve te∣stament.
• * 1.214

  The sacrific•• of Christ is eternall. 1. Cor. 5. b. 7 Heb. 13. b. 8
• * 1.215

  Iohn. 8. g. 58
• * 1.216

  Rom. 8. c. 15 Gal. 4. ••. 4
• * 1.217

  Psal. 90. a. 4. ••. Pet. 3. b, 8
• * 1.218

  Christ our suertie. Genes. 3. c. 15
• * 1.219

  Gen••••. 12. •• 15 20. 48 2. Reg. 7 Psal. 40 Psal. 130
• * 1.220

  Iere. 23. ••. 5 & ••3. c. 14 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••. ••. 47
• * 1.221

  〈◊〉〈◊〉 of glo∣ry in the other ly••e.
• * 1.222

  Heb. 11. ••••.
• * 1.223

  Apoc. 6. c. 10
• * 1.224

  A comparison of the lyfe pre∣sent and of that to come. Heb. 6. ••. 4 Io••••. 5.
• * 1.225

  Ephe. 4
• * 1.226

  P••il. ••. d. 2••
• * 1.227

  1. Cor. 13. d. 12 1. Cor. 15 d 28 1. Iohn. 3. •• •• Colos. 3. ••, 3
• * 1.228

  Augmentacion of the felicitie to the Angels
• * 1.229

  1. Pe••er. 1. •• ••••
• * 1.230

  Psal. 9••. c. 11 Hebr. 1, c. ••
• * 1.231

  Luc. 15. c. 10
• * 1.232

  1. Cor. 6, ••, 2.
• * 1.233

  Eph••. 3, b. 10
• * 1.234

  Christ the re∣storer of all thinges Ephe, 1, b, 10. Collo, 1, ••, ••••.
• * 1.235

  Rom. ••. d. ••••
• * 1.236

  Torments of the reprobate aggra••ated.
• * 1.237

  2. Peter. 2. 2. 4.
• * 1.238

  2. Peter. 2. b. 9
• * 1.239

  The beginning of gods iudgmēt
• * 1.240

  Conscience. C••nsc••••ncia 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••••st••••.
• * 1.241

  I••••••nal. Sa••y. 13. Cur tamen hos tu. Euasisse pute•• quos d•••••• con∣s•••••• sacti. Meus reddit attonitos, & surdo verbere c••dit. Occultum qu•• ti••nt•• an••mum tortore st••gellū. Item. Exemplo qu••d cunque malo committitur ipsi. Displicet auto∣ri prima haec est vl••••••, quod se Iudi•••• nemo no••••ns absol∣uitur. Item. Nocte d••••que suum gestat ••n pectore testem. Spartano cut dam respond••t Pythia ••ates Deut. 28. c. 15.
• * 1.242

  Esa. 57. d. 20. Genes. 4. b. 8, Mat. 27. ••. ••. Act. ••. c. 1••.
• * 1.243

  The vvitnesse of conscience, that there is a GOD.
• * 1.244

  1. Iohn. 3. d. 20
• * 1.245

  The beginning of hell and of Paradise.
• * 1.246

  Iohn. 3. 5. 6.
• * 1.247

  The Fu••yes and she diuells Iuuenal. Sat. 13 ••ug. Aene. 6 Cic. in ora••. pro Piso.
• * 1.248

  The vvorme of conscience Esa. 66. g. 24 Mar. 9. g. 41
• * 1.249

  The degrees of the Iudgement of God.
• * 1.250

  2. Pet. 2. 2. 4
• * 1.251

  Mat. 8. d. 29 Mar. 5. 2. 7
• * 1.252

  The estate of y^• soules after they be seperated frō the bodye
• * 1.253

  The sleepers
• * 1.254

  Philip. 1, c. 22.
• * 1.255

  Tus••. q. ••••. ••
• * 1.256

  The Image of death.
• * 1.257

  2, Cor. 5.
• * 1.258

  Gas•• 4. ••. 2
• * 1.259

  Ro••. ••, ••. ••••
• * 1.260

  2. Cor. 3
• * 1.261

  The insufficien∣cie of the booke of the Machabees for to proue Purgatory. The example of Iudas
• * 1.262

  Payne & faulte
• * 1.263

  Grace but halfe
• * 1.264

  Halfe a sauiour.
• * 1.265

  Raymond.
• * 1.266

  Vnde versus Gratta magna Det, ventam non dimidiabit Aut nihil aut totum prop••ti∣ando d••bi••.
• * 1.267

  The Pope more puissant then Christ. God compared vnto tyrants
• * 1.268

  1. Tim. 2. b. 6
• * 1.269

  Prayers for the resurrection
• * 1.270

  Hovv one ma•• pray for y^• dead Daniel, 9, •• 4. Reg, 22. d 2. Cor 34. f
• * 1.271

  Ezech, 18. e. 20
• * 1.272

  Hovv the child beareth y^• offc̄ce of his father.
• * 1.273

  Exo. 20. a 5
• * 1.274

  4. Reg. 17
• * 1.275

  Mat 23. d 35 Luc, 11, g, 5••
• * 1.276

  2. Mach 12. f. 4c
• * 1.277

  Acham. Iosua. 7. c. 18
• * 1.278

  Hovv those that are dead are pu∣nished in their successours.
• * 1.279

  4. Reg. 10. a. 1.
• * 1.280

  Esa. 13. & 14.
• * 1.281

  To pray for the resurrection of the body & the cōming of christ
• * 1.282

  Apoc. 6. c, 10
• * 1.283

  Esa. 40 c. 13 Esa. 14. •• 26
• * 1.284

  Mat. 10. d. 29 Luc. 12. ••. 7
• * 1.285

  Mat. 6. d. 33 &, 7. b. 8 Luc. ••. b. 9
• * 1.286

  1. Cor. 15.
• * 1.287

  To pray for the Sainctes vvhich are in Paradise.
• * 1.288

  A nevy Letany
• * 1.289

  Fryer Christo∣pher. Masse of Re∣q••••em for the Sainctes.
• * 1.290

  One onely bap∣tisme of Iesus Christ.
• * 1.291

  Carolus.
• * 1.292

  Horostratus
• * 1.293

  The vvar of the Gyants
• * 1.294

  Sinne vnto death. 1. Iohn, 5. d. 16 Ismael. Genes. 16. c. 12,
• * 1.295

  Gal. 4. d. 30
• * 1.296

  Sara and Agar. Isaac & Ismael. Genes 21. b, 9
• * 1.297

  The church of Lausanne.
• * 1.298

  3. Reg. 2. g 44 Psal. 139. b. 23 Act. 1. d. 24
• * 1.299

  Apostles of the circumcis••on. Gal. 5. a Phil. 3. a
• * 1.300

  Vayne glory
• * 1.301

  Skirmi••shers.
• * 1.302

  The metaphisi∣call Theology.
• * 1.303

  Euse. de pra e••an. ••••. 14. ca. 2
• * 1.304

  Archesilaus.
• * 1.305

  Hydra.
• * 1.306

  Gerion.
• * 1.307

  Hercules.
• * 1.308

  Mat. 8. b. 14. Ma••. 1. c. 29
• * 1.309

  2. Cor. 11. d. 1••
• * 1.310

  A signe for to iudge the false and true Pro∣phets.
• * 1.311

  A nevv trans∣figuration of Sathan.
• * 1.312

  Purgatory for the body.
• * 1.313

  A troublesome doctrine.
• * 1.314

  Mat. 12. d. 44.
• * 1.315

  Masses for the young children
• * 1.316

  Tho. dist. 12. li. 4. deffc. enche. Reisersp. de. mor. v••rt. Sermo dom. ••. aduent.