Rhemes against Rome: or, The remoouing of the gagg of the new Gospell, and rightly placing it in the mouthes of the Romists, by the Rhemists in their English translation of the Scriptures. Which counter-gagg is heere fitted by the industrious hand of Richard Bernard ...

The Scriptures obiected, answered.

Esay 59. 21. This is my Couenant with them: My Spirit that is vpon thee, and my words, which I haue put into thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seedes seede, saith the Lord, from henceforth, and for euer.

Answ. 1. I answere, that the Prophet speakes here of Gods Couenant with them, that is, with those that turne from trans∣gression in Iacob, and so of the faithfull and elect, and not of the Church visible, of which we speake.

II. Here is no promise, that the Church shall not erre; but that he will bestow on them, which exercise the Ministery, his Spirit, and his Word continually for the Churches good.

III. If he will needs hence conclude, that the Church can∣not erre: 1. He must proue, that the Teachers doe euer teach the truth by Gods Spirit, and by Gods Word, which are to go together, Ioh. 14. 26. and 16. 13. Mat. 18. 19, 20. 2. That the hearers, the members of the Church, doe euer receiue, beleeue and follow their Teachers thus teaching by the Word and holy Spirit, which two things rest for him to make good ad Graecas Calendas.

IV. This promise made, must needs be vnderstood condi∣tionally of the visible Church, and of an ordinary Ministery: for Esay tells vs afterwords, how they vexed Gods Spirit, chap. 63. 10. We see how the Church of the Israelites, and that at Ierusa∣lem hath been cast off of God, and hath now neither Word nor Spirit of God to direct it. Christ found her Teachers in his time full of errors, as they grieuously erred before, 2. King. 16. 11. 2. Chron. 36. 14, 16. Esay 56. 10. Ier. 5. 1. Mal. 2. 8. And we know by experience in our times, and by faithfull relation aforetimes, that Teachers haue erred; and people haue not euer embraced the truth, when sound Teachers haue deliuered it; let Christs hearers be instance for all, and those in Iury which heard the A∣postles.

V. If this were a good argument, where Gods Spirit and his

Word is, there can be no errour; then would it follow, that no ordinary member of Christ should euer erre; for such a one hath Gods Spirit, 1. Ioh. 2. 20, 27. Rom. 8. 9. 2. Cor. 1. 21. and his Word, Deut. 33. 3. by which they become beleeuers, Ioh. 17. 20. But this, I hope, a Papist will not grant, and yet the argument is the same.

Ioh. 14. 16. I will pray the Father, and he shall giue you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for euer, euen the Spirit of truth.

Answ. 1. This place is primarily to be vnderstood of the A∣postles, to whom the promise of guiding into all truth, was a speciall priuiledge, Mat. 10. 20. Ioh. 14. 26. and 16. 13.

2. Of the succeeding Teachers, but with no such speciall pri∣uiledge: for first, there are no such promises made to them. Se∣condly, experience teacheth, that they haue wanted this priui∣ledge. Thirdly, the hearers haue libertie to search and trie that which is deliuered, if they doubt, 1. Thes. 5. 21. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. Ioh. 5. 39. Act. 17. 11. Waldensis, one of their owne side, saith of particular Pastors and Bishops, We know that these haue often erred.

3. Neither the abiding of the Spirit for euer where it is, nor the title of Spirit of truth will enforce euer an infallibility in teaching; for it is called the Spirit of sanctification or holinesse, Rom. 1. 4. for that he worketh in vs holinesse, and is euer abiding in the godly, who are the Temple of the holy Ghost; and yet are they not so sanctified, but they often offend in life. So is it the Spirit of truth, because it enlightneth the minds of men with onely that which is truth, and guideth them in the truth, if they follow their guide: but if they doe not, they may, yea, and doe erre from the truth.

Mat. 18. 17. If he neglect to heare the Church, let him be to thee as an Heathen, and a Publican.

Answ. 1. This is meant of an euident case proued by wit∣nesses before the Church in matters of offence, betweene one priuate man and another; wherein the Church may giue right sentence, if she will; yet we see, such as meddle in the Churches censures, doe not euer proceede aright. This place therefore is

not to the matter of doctrine and determination of faith, the point in question; neither doth it proue, that in her censure the Church cannot erre: for saith their owne Panormitan, as before is cited, A generall Councell representing the whole Church, may erre, in excommunicating him that should not be excommunicate. These words speake not of the Churches either not erring or er∣ring, but of other hearing the Church, and how they should car∣ry themselues towards such, as will not in so cleare a case heare the Churches admonition.

3. Its not here commanded, that he should be held as a Hea∣then and Publican, that would not heare the Church in what∣soeuer she saith: for Christ here speakes of the Iewish Church then, as appeareth by the name Heathen and Publican, which were abhorred of the Iewish Church. Now, that Church (wee reade) did excommunicate a blind man (which receiued sight) for his professing of Christ, Ioh. 9. 34. and had agreed to put any man out of the Synagogue, which should confesse Iesus to bee Christ, v 22. and did also forbid to teach in his name, Act. 4. 18.

4. This place is spoken of some Ecclesiasticall Gouernours, (if it be extended to vs) hauing the power of censures in a par∣ticular Church; which the Learned in their Church doe con∣fesse, may erre; and therefore this helpes not to proue, that the Church cannot erre.

Esay 35. 8. And a high way shall be there, and away, and it shall be called. The way of holinesse, the vncleane shall not passe ouer it, but it shall be for those: the way-faring men, though fooles, shall not erre therein.

Answ. I. This verse is wholly allegoricall, and therfore can∣not so well be inforced for dogmaticall proofe, without a full explanation of the words; which the Gagger should haue done.

II. It is altogether against himselfe in the exposition, if hee either durst, or had been able to haue set it downe: for by high∣way may be vnderstood the common profession or points of Re∣ligion, for good and bad, as the high-way is for all; then the way of holinesse is taken for a more strict profession, or more straight Rules of Religion. If so, then consider the persons who they bee, that shall not erre in this way: hee doth not say, The

Church, or the learned Church men, or men in holy Orders; for are these fooles? but wayfaring men, though fooles, shall not erre. Here is a promise, that the simple Laytie shall not mistake their way; which Popish Teachers cannot abide to heare of. Nei∣ther shall any vncleane passe ouer this way: but they teach, that their Church Catholike consists of elect and reprobate, both good and bad, cleane and vncleane. Therefore in a spirituall sense the words are to be vnderstood of the onely sanctified by Gods Spirit, here trauelling in this World as wayfaring men; and though esteemed as fooles, yet are so guided in their holy profession, as they shall not bee suffered to wander out of the way of life, neither totally nor finally. But he will say, If these shall not erre, then much lesse shall the Church. True, who de∣nies it? we doe not say, that all the whole Church, and all the ho∣ly that euer haue been, such as this place speaketh of, haue all er∣red this thousand yeeres, as the Gagger beares his Reader in hand, making him beleeue, that we so teach. Here the Prophet speakes of the Lords redeemed separated from the vncleane, in a spirituall estate, in and by Christ; but in our dispute we speake of the visible Church of cleane and vncleane, good and bad, and of a mixt company.

III. This verse, and the whole chapter, speakes in the first place, of the returne from Captiuitie, which the Prophet doth expresse in figuratiue speeches, to set out the comfort thereof most liuely: and so it is nothing to the purpose, for which the Gagger brings it. In a high sense it sets out the spirituall happi∣nesse of the redeemed by Christ, partly here begun, and fully to be perfected in the day of the Churches perfect redemption.

IV. It speakes not here of the Churches teaching, but ra∣ther of the Saints trauailing towards Heauen: But the word, not erre, made the Gagger thinke, he had obtained his purpose, and an expresse text for not erring in Doctrine, when the words speake of a way, a high-way, of trauailing men, and others not passing ouer it, and of the redeemeds walking, vers. 9. Then be∣ing vnderstood of not erring in life, it cannot be taken absolute∣ly: for error of life is in the best, but they erre not to finall de∣struction.

Ephes. 5. 27. That hee might present it to himselfe a glorious Church, not hauing spot or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Answ. 1. Our dispute is of the visible Church, and mixt com∣pany; this is to be vnderstood only of the body, whereof Christ in the most proper sense, is the Head and Sauiour, vers. 9. which hee nourisheth and cherisheth, vers. 29. betweene whom and Christ thereis such an vnion, as it is called a great Mystery, vers. 32. which cannot properly be meant of visible Churches, con∣sisting not onely of Elect, but also of Reprobates, who are not clensed, nor nourished, or cherished, as members of his body, nor made euer glorious.

II. The Apostle speakes heere of the Church either as triumphant, or, if as militant, then as it is in preparing, and as it shall bee hereafter in Heauen: for in this life, it is not altogether spotlesse, without wrinkle or blemish, Cant. 1. 5, 6.

III. This place doth serue rather to prooue her puritie in life, then infallibilitie of iudgement in teaching: this latter is hence farre fetched; the former may seeme more apparant. But will any beleeue, that Gods Church for life and conuersation, is in this life without spot, wrinkle or blemish?

1. Tim. 3. 15. The Church of the liuing God, the ground and pillar of truth.

Because this place is much vrged by others, and the last of this Gaggers, I will more fully make answer vnto it. Hence hee would conclude, that the Church cannot erre; he meaneth the Church of Rome, the Pope, at least, the virtuall Church; for they defend not now any Church from errour, but their owne. But this they can neuer proue out of the place.

I. Saint Paul wrote to Timothy, how he should behaue him∣selfe in the Church, 1. Tim. 3. 14. So his Epistle, that is, the Apo∣stolicall written Word, was made to be Timothies rule, to guide him from erring, and not the Churches determination. S. Paul, for all this his praise of the Church, sent him not to Her, but pre∣scribed him a written Word, to direct him in gouerning of her, which hee would not haue done, if by calling the Church, the

pillar and ground of truth, he had meant she could not haue er∣red.

II. Saint Paul speaketh thus of the then present Church of Ephesus, where Timothy was, chap. 1. 3. built vpon the founda∣tion, Ephes. 2. 20. and yet she soone left her first Loue, Reuel. 2. 4. and after fell away.

III. The word Church comprehendeth all the faithfull to∣gether at Ephesus: so the Church of Ephesus is taken, Reuel. 2. 1. But our Aduersaries will not haue the people (as the Apo∣stles allowed, Act. 15. 22.) with their Bishops and Pastors, to be the Church, and with them to approue of matters of Faith: For the Romish Clergie thinke of the people, as did the hypocriti∣call Pharises, that they know not the Law, and are cursed, Ioh. 7. 49. Except they allow the people also with the Teachers, to be the pillar and ground of truth, this place doth not serue their turne.

IV. If the word Church bee taken for any other particular Church, to which Timothie, as an Euangelist, might goe, after the Apostles planting of them, then from hence the Papists cannot conclude that which they would: for first, they acknow∣ledge, that particular Churches may erre. Secondly, its euident by Scripture, in the Churches of Galatia, Gal. 1. and 3. 1. and 4. 10, 11. by historie, and by experience. Now, the Church of Rome was neuer other then a particular Church, in the best spi∣rituall estate thereof. Saint Paul writes to it no otherwise, then to a particular Church.

V. If it be taken for the Vniuersall Church; this helpes not them. For first, theirs is not the vniuersall, but a particular Church, as is proued after in the sixteenth question.

Secondly, it is absurd to reason from that which is not que∣stioned, nor can euer assemble together to come to the triall, if it were questionable.

VI. The intituling of the Church, to bee the pillar and ground of truth, wil not afford the conclusion of not erring, and that for these Reasons. First, because the words are metapho∣ricall, and a similitude must be extended no farther then is in en∣ded. Now, the Church is called the pillar and ground, not be∣cause

shee cannot erre: but first, for that she hath the Apostles writings committed to her, as were the Oracles of God to the Iewes, Rom 3. 2. which Apostles writings are (saith Irenous) the pillars and supporters of our faith; the proofes, foundations, and the grounds of our cause, as Saint Augustine speakes. Se∣condly, as Lyra thinkes, it is so called, for that the Church doth maintaine the truth of the Gospell, euen in the greatest persecu∣tions: and, as other iudge, for that it vpholdeth the truth, that it may not fall to the ground, though it be afflicted; and because by words and examples it confirmes our Faith. Thirdly, the Apostle speakes according to the vse of pillars in old time a∣mong the Gentiles, on which their Lawes, written in Tables, were hanged vp for people to reade: yea, some wrote the Lawes vpon pillars themselues. So as the Church here is resembled to those pillars, which hath the Bookes of holy Lawes, to shew them, and to vphold them, and to exhibite them out vnto all to bee seene and read.

Secondly, because Saint Peter was counted a Pillar, Gal. 2 9. and yet he erred, euen in not walking according to the truth of the Gospell, vers. 14.

Thirdly, because Saint Paul calleth so the Church at Ephesus then, as she was, and so long to be so esteemed as she should continue. Thus Saint Paul to the Hebrewes telleth them, that they with himselfe and others, are the House of Christ, if (saith he) we hold fast the confidence, and the reioycing of the hope firme vnto the end: implying, that if they did not, they should not be so. Can any well conclude from that, which one is at the present, that he shall euer be the same? Then had not our first Parents fallen; nor Salomon been an Idolater; nor the Israelites now, none of Gods people; nor Rome, (as she is) spirituall Ba∣bylon.

Fourthly, because not the name and title of the House of God it self (by which name the Church is called here, in 1. Tim. 3. 15. as also beleeuers are called by the name of the houshold of God, Ephes. 2. 19.) will afford this their conclusion. For the Church of Ephesus, so called, did erre. Now, may it not be inferred from hence, that she is called the House, and beleeuers the Houshold?

and may it be inferred, because she is called a pillar only, or stay, to vphold the house? Will not the whole house, nor the house∣hold yeeld it? And will a pillar, or prop, make it good? Very vn∣likely.

Fifthly, it is onely vpon the praise giuen to the Church, that this conclusion is made. Is this then good arguing; Whatsoe∣uer prayses the Church hath, that for which, or wherein shee is praysed, she hath it in perfection? Here she is called the pillar and ground of truth: Ergo, (say they) she cannot erre. See the like reasoning; She is the houshold of Faith, Gal. 6. 10. Ergo, she neuer hath any doubting. Yet this they deny, and hold here to haue no certaine assurance.

Lastly, consider the truth, of which shee is the pillar and ground. Oecumenius vnderstands it in opposition to the shad∣dowes in the Temple vnder the Law; there the type, here the truth; there the shadow, here the substance. But the Temple was onely the pillar and ground, that is, the appointed place where the knowledge and vse of the Ceremoniall Law was had and vpheld: so onely is now the Church, the place where the diuine truth is to be found, and is in practice, and no where else. Truth in Scripture is taken for the Word of God, Ioh. 17. 17. and 8. 31, 32. the Gospell, the Word of truth, Col. 1. 5. Gal. 5. 7. euen the Mystery of godlinesse, as Saint Paul in this place of the 1. Tim. 3. 16. enterpreteth the Word, Truth.

So then, the Church of God is the pillar and ground or stay of Gods Word and his Gospell, euen the mysterie of godlinesse. This she receiueth, keepeth, beareth vp, publisheth to the world, and is the ground whereon it doth rest, and no where else in the world. What then? Is she, or it the Rule? Is her authoritie aboue it, or it aboue her? The King committeth to some the publike Records, to keepe and to publish to other. Is their au∣thoritie greater then these? Are their words of force, without the warrant of those Records? Or is it not possible for these keepers of them, to erre in their proceedings? We know the contrary. The Iewes had the Oracles of God committed to them, Rom. 3. 2. but haue not they erred? The Church of Co∣rinth, Ephesus, Galatia, Philippi, Colosse, Thessalonica, He∣brewes,

and other Churches in the East, had the new Testament committed to them; yet haue they, we see, erred. So hath the Church of Rome very shamefully, as the Epistle written to them doth testifie, if her now new doctrine be examined by it. The Church therefore, the visible mixt company, of whom all our dispute is, may erre.

Notes

• Li. 2. ca. 19. de Doct. sid.
• Li. 3. ca. 1.
• De vnit. Eccl. ca. 16. On this 1. Tim. 3.
• On this place, Ioh. 5. 23