The baynes of Aquisgrane, the I. part & I. volume, intituled Variety Contayning three bookes, in the forme of dialogues, vnder the titles following, viz. Profit, pleasure, honour. Furnished with diuers things, no lesse delightfull, then beneficiall to be knowne, and obserued. ...by Roger Baynes gent. a long exile out of England, not for any temporall respect.

INTERLOCVTORS. Aquilonius. Fauonius. Subsolanus. RELATOR.

THE Intentions of men being by the di∣uersity of Discourse, and imbecillity of nature, subiect vnto mutation; a difficult thing it is to imagine, and much more to determine, what resolution to make of purposes, and designes premeditated; be∣cause no sooner is any one thing in tearmes to be resolued, but straight there is wont to rise a kind of feare, that some errour may be committed therin. Whereupon I haue eft∣soones said to my selfe (since I accepted the enterprize of this worke in hand) that if I erre in any thing, it would seeme to be in this, to haue taken vpon me to set downe in writing the words of other mens disputation and spea∣ches, not put together perhaps with such care, nor with that correctednes of stile, as things better thought of, might haue beene. Whereat, though I my selfe were pre∣sent; yet was I no more but a behoulder, as an allied Assi∣stant by name vnto one of the company, & chiefly drawen therto by my owne curiosity, and for my priuate vse only to keep in record some remembrance of that which passed amongst them: gathering vp so well as my memory might

serue me to do, and but one alone to collect all the argu∣ments of three disputers; making still this account with my selfe, that if the matter fell not out to my lyking, nor to be worth my paynes taken, then I might keep my losse secret vnto my selfe without any blame at all: and that if it happened to fall out otherwise; then I might possibly get some further recompence of thankes, by imparting the same vnto others, such as would be glad to see so many particularities of things, as this worke contayneth, treated of in their owne language. So that now at last the waight of all that cogitation o•• myne, is come to depend vpon this other poynt: to wit, Whether my labour may be any whit gratefull vnto others, or no, if not for the manner of handling (which is but by the way of Conference) yet for the diuersity of things heere handled? The which I wil not vndertake to determine, because I wil not preiudicate either the Readers, or the worke it selfe: the one in respect of the variety of mens Iudgments, and the other in respect of my owne interest, not to censure that which hath so voluntarily passed through my owne handes. And ther∣fore as one wel perswaded of the best, I will put these con∣siderations, as it were, in a ballance, to counterpoise one a∣nother, & leaue them to striue as they will amongst them∣selues, whiles I begin to performe so much of my duty as vnto me belongeth, by supplying the office of a true Re∣lator.

¶ Thou shalt therfore vnderstand, good Reader, that there happened of late to meet togeather in the auncient Citty of Aquisgrane, three men of one nation, and of one language, but of different Prouinces, & of diuers dispositi∣ons. The first a dexterous Northern-man, who being the conducter of a certaine Gentlemans sonne of those quar∣ters, and a Politician by profession, was come thither only

for stipend and remuneration of his seruice, whome we will cal for the present by the name of AQVILONIVS, according to the title of the Climate towards which he was borne. The second was a far borne Western-man, & by profession a Protestant, but of the ciuiller sort, come thither only, as trauellers be wont to do, for curiosity to see the place, whome for the like respect before alledged, we will call by the name of FAVONIVS. And the last a middle dwelling Estern-man, who being a Catholike exiled, was come thither only by reason of sicknes, to take in that place the commoditie of the Baynes (more vulgar∣ly called Bathes) and him we will call, for the former res∣pect, by the name of SVBSOLANVS. These three per∣sons, being wont, at one of their lodgings, to meet togea∣ther often, were fallen one day into a more serious debate∣ment then at any tyme before. Wherupon my selfe (who was Iudged in a chamber of the same house) hearing them grow somewhat lowder then they were wont to be, resol∣ued to go in vnto them: & euen as I was entring into the chamber, I heard Aquilonius say these very words.

AQVILONIVS.

The world being a wonderfull machine of variety, of greatnes, and of admiration, con∣tayneth in it diuers sorts of creatures, but all of them con∣ditioned and qualified like vnto it selfe; that is to say, full of interest, and rapine: the birdes of the aire by flying, the fishes of the water by swymming, and the beasts of the earth by running, to catch and deuoure whatsoeuer they can ouertake: why then alone should man be blamed, for seeking in like manner to prouide for himselfe, aswell as the rest; vnlesse you would thinke it conuenient continu∣ally to striue against kind, as the Giants be said by Cicero to ha••e done, when they stroue against the Heauens, the which would be no small infelicity? Or that on the other

side it should be good for vs by labouring all to be Angells heere on earth, to derogate from the celestiall spirits their due, and to vsurpe vnto our selues their blessednes before our time, which I thinke may be done soone inough, when we ariue vnto the place where they be liuing: in the meane while, in such sort, and with such an intermixture of co∣gitations and actions, as, not depriuing vs alltogeather of the way to Heauen, we may not also loose the fruition of those benefits which the world is still ready to bestow vpō vs.

FAVONIVS.

Your manner of speach is som∣what extrauagant, but yet to make therof the most fauou∣rable construction, my meaning was not in that which I said a little before to taxe the world in such a general sort, as by this your answere it seemeth you vnderstand me to haue done: but only to inferre vpon your owne words spoken in the behalfe of your mentioned friend, that the world was like to haue inough to do, to satisfy the world∣lines of such swelling spirits, as he that thought himselfe to be another Mercurius. And this chiefly for only hauing had the happe to vncipher a simple ciphered Letter, and no more: the which by all likelihood, either a sollicitous Merchant, or a common Notarie might well inough haue beene able to do, no lesse then he.

AQVILONIVS.

Though you make but light accompt therof; yet I do attri∣bute much vnto the mind of such a man, who being so well perswaded of his owne doing, doth redouble therby the force of all his other sufficiency. The which alone were able to pricke him potently forward vnto some no∣table degree of Excellency, in whatsoeuer profession he should betake himselfe vnto: since the greatest operations hitherto done by any of the most famous men of the world, haue for the most part been seen to take their beginning from a good opinion of themselues.

FAVONIVS

So that, to be a notable well-weaner of himselfe, and his owne doings, you take to be a principall stimulator vnto Excellency.

AQVILONIVS.

I see as yet no contra∣ry reason, why, to alter my opinion therein.

FAVO∣NIVS.

You put me in remembrance hereby, of a cer∣tayne Grecian Prince called Clitus, who for hauing ouer∣throwne by sea some three or foure little Barkes, gloryed so much therof, as he vsurped the name of the God of the Waters, & caused himselfe to be called Neptune.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

If Amasis the Egyptian had not had in him a great mind, and a greater opinion of himselfe, & his owne doings, then his fortune would seeme by birth to haue allotted him, he had neuer risen to be King of Egypt.

FAVONIVS.

That same art of rising, as I perceiue by your words, is a very principall and materiall point, which greatly occupieth and troubleth your mind.

A∣QVILONIVS.

I know but few who either are not for the present, or haue not bene contented heeretofore, to trouble themselues sometimes with such cogitations as these.

FAVONIVS.

An old Philosopher being asked by such an aspiring wordling, as you haue spoken of, what Iupiter was doing in heauen? answered: He doth nothing els but make ladders for some to ascend, and some to des∣cend by.

AQVILONIVS.

And what of this, I pray you?

FAVONIVS.

His blindnes notwithstanding was such, as it rather increased his folly thē otherwise, by giuing him occasion to perplexe himselfe about the ascen∣ding ladder only, but nothing at all about the descending.

AQVILONIVS.

I expect to heare the end of your in∣tention.

FAVONIVS.

My meaning herein is this, that such worldly cogitations, be for the most part grea∣ter in the imagination, then they happen to prooue in effect.

AQVILONIVS.

Then belike you will resem∣ble

a worldly man vnto King Ag•••••••• his shoomaker, who was wont to make great shooes for little feete.

¶ Heere Subsolanus interrupting a little their talke, began to say thus.

SVBSOLANVS.

In these mysti∣call reckonings of yours, me thinks you pay one another like as a souldier of Aegipt did, who only with the sound of his money paid a brawling Cook, for the smel of his rost∣meate; since what with variety, and what with obscuri∣ty you determine of nothing.

AQVILONIVS.

In∣deed, as you say, we Northern borderers be very obscure fellowes, for that we call a Hare a Hare, and a Dogge a Dogge, when we talke togeather in our owne dome∣sticall language.

FAVONIVS.

So that you leaue, I per∣ceaue, vnto me (said Fauonius) to answer vnto the impu∣ted variety of our talke, as also to the not determining of our things somewhat better. And therfore to follow our proposition a little more strictly then before, I say now: That whereas worldlines transgresseth most of all in ex∣cesse, if it be on your part amended, & temperately mo∣derated, the rekconing will be easily made vp betwixt vs.

AQVILONIVS.

As though in such a man (sayd Aqui∣lonius) as followeth the world attentiuely, there might not be tolerated, sometimes, an once of excesse in his a∣ctions, to get thereby a pound of credit.

FAVONIVS.

This kind of merchandize I do not well vnderstand.

AQVILONIVS.

As for example, to commit some sort of excesse, eyther in extending somewhat too far the opi∣nion of his owne sufficiency, or by vndertaking the execu∣tion of some greater enterprize, then he is well able to performe.

FAVONIVS.

But what if his debility in eyther of these cases, should be after discouered; would not this be rather a discredit, then a credit vnto him?

AQVILONIVS.

The disered it were like inough to

be attributed to his attentiue forwardnes in the affaires of the world, and the credit, if any happē, would fall vnto himselfe, aduancing him thereby not a little.

FAVO∣NIVS.

So that forwardnes in worldly affaires, you take to be a sufficient warrant to excuse any morall error whatsoeuer.

AQVILONIVS.

I do so indeed, Fauo∣nius. But what if a man by louing the world ouer well, should vtterly loose himselfe, yet his worldlines will not so easely loose herselfe in him.

FAVONIVS.

It seemeth hereby you haue not yet considered this other point, that there is not scarcely any thing in the world to be found so dangerous to be dealt withall, as worldlines it selfe, which as sayth an old Doctour of your owne Schoole, in his booke De Ciuitate Dei, leadeth men vnto things that be vaine, hurtfull, full of biting thoughts, perturbations, afflictions, feares, foolish delights, discords, quarrells, warres, intrapments, wrath, enimity, falsity, flattery, deceipt, stealth, rapine, obstinacy, pride, ambition, enuy, slaughters of men, of parents, of friends, of kinse∣men, cruelty, malignity, carnalty, bouldnes, vnshame∣fastnes, violence, pouerty, fornicatiō, adultery of all sorts, and other filthines, which are not fit to be spoken of; sa∣criledge, heresies, periuries, oppressions, calumniations, preuarications, false testimonies, iniust Iudgments, in∣forcements, theeuery, and such like. And therefore not without cause is it elsewhere said, That the world, with her worldlings, is an assembly of wicked men a slaughter-house of good men, a nourisher of vice, an oppressor of vertue, an enemy of peace, a freind of contention and warre, a sweet receptacle of wicked men, a bitter inter∣tayner of good men, a defender of lies, an inuentor of nouelties, an vnquietnes of ignorant men, a Martyrdome of euill men, a table of glottons, an ouen of concupis∣sence,

a Carybdes and a Scylla of suffocating thoughts: Whereupon it is said further by another, that the world doth hate those that do loue it, deceaue those that trust it, persecute those that serue it, afflict those that esteeme it, dishonor those that honor it, & forget those who do most of all remember it: Whose conuersation is full of affli∣ction, whose myrth full of melancholy, whose pleasure full of remorse, whose consolation full of scruple, and whose prosperity is full of feare: Liberall it is in promi∣sing, and scarce in performing, producing many euills; and is the occasion of many miserable effects, beginning without any prudence, & ending with bitter repentance. And therfore it is to be beheld a far off, like a monstrous and rauenous beast, least he that commeth too neere it, be deuoured by it. For the more familiar any man is with the world, the more perillous it is: vsing those men worse who do fauour it, then those who do abhorre it: And to loue it, & not to perish in it, is a thing impossible, because making shew of one thing it deceaueth men with another, like as Iezabel would haue deceaued Iehu, 4. Reg. 9. shewing to him her fine platted head, but sought to hyde from him her further abhominations: So as many it de∣ceaueth, and many also it vtterly blindeth.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

Then to begin with your selfe for one; the world me thinkes would seeme to haue also blinded you, in not letting you see whome you calumniate heerein. For who made the world, I pray you, that you will needs inueigh so much against worldlings? and that with such great exageration, as you haue vsed, to impeach the same?

¶ Heere Subsolanus interposing himselfe betwixt them againe, spake in this manner.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

Not so ho••tly, Aquilonius: this matter would be tal∣ked of betwixt you a little more calmely. And therfore

to allay somewhat your earnestnes, a conuenient occa∣sion of some little pause is profered. We haue now talked standing a good while: let vs therfore take these chaires and sit downe, for that this Conference I doubt me, may continue long. No ceremonies at all, I pray you. In this lodging of myne, you must be content to be ruled by me. Take you the patience to sit heere, and you there: this o∣ther more vneasie seate you shall giue me leaue to take to my selfe. And let this be our custome still without any more adoe, so often as heerafter we shall meet togeather, admitting also this other allied Assistant of myne, to be present in the hindmost place, to supply all occasions which may happen, & likewise for his owne instruction if he thinke good, to note downe any thing that shalbe said, for he hath inke and paper there by him: who to the end he may know, before hand, the scope whereunto our Conference hath to tend, and we also keep amongst our selues the better accompt of our owne indeauours, it will not perhaps be amisse, if I do here begin (by your good leaues and liking) to set downe some argumentes fit to be spoken of, during the twentie and seauen dayes, which we haue to abide in this Citty. And because three things do chiefly present themselues to be heere consi∣dered, namely the Variety of the World, the Subordi∣nation therof, and the Folly of the same; therfore the first nyne dayes we will treate of Variety; the second nyne dayes of Subordination; and the last nyne dayes of the Folly of the world. And so to begin first with the Variety of the World, because, touching the same, there occurre three things to be considered, namely Humane Nature, the Mynd of man, and the Body of man (from the which all Variety doth proceed:) therfore as concer∣ning the first branch, we will the first three dayes debate

of Profit, of Pleasure, and of Honour: the second three dayes we will debate of Ignorance, of Opinion, and of Science: and the last three dayes our Conference shall be concer∣ning Education, Trauaile, and Repose. And now because Aquilonius a little before hath so earnestly asked, who made the world; I my selfe will take vpon me this burthen to tel it you, if you will but lend a little patience to heare the same. So it is therfore that about the creation of the world, the Poets first had two fictions, the one, that it was done by Demogorgon, Eternity, Chaos, and Erebus; and the other that it was made by Iupiter, Hebe, Prometheus, and Epi∣metheus, wherof the one is very foolish and fond, and the other ridiculous. Also the Philosophers had diuers opinions therof. Aristotle was of the mynd, that the world was ab aeterno, & that consequently it should endure for euer. De∣mocritus held, that it was created of inseparable Atomi: And Plato saith, that the primitiue matter therof was ab aeterno, but that the world it selfe had a beginning, though it shall haue no end. Finally our Deuins (who teach the in∣fallible truth, as well cōcerning this point, as other matters of Faith) hold, that the world it selfe & the primitiue mat∣ter therof were both created, and therfore subiect to cor∣ruption: all I meane saue the Intellectuall spirits, and Celesti∣all bodyes only, the which according to some Deuines are eternized by the excellency of their formes, and also of the matter that God hath giuen them; yet so, as they are cer∣tainly to be transmuted, and purified againe, more then as yet they are. But whether the Intellectuall, the Celestiall, & Terrestriall worlds were all created at once, some diuersity of opinions is found euen amongst the Deuins themselues. For S. Augustine, S Thomas, S. Bonauenture, and all the o∣ther Doctors of the Scholes do generally hould, that there was of them all, but one creation: and this is taken for the

only true opinion. Though otherwise out of the doctrine of some of the ancient Fathers, some thinke it may be probably gathered; that God created first the Intellectuall, and Incorporeall world; that is to say, the Angels or Intelli∣gences. Secondly the Celestiall corporall world, contay∣ning the Spheres of all the Heauens: and thirdly this Ele∣mentall corporall world of ours, and all things therin contayned. Which doctrine may more particulerly be drawne out of S. Damascen, de orthodoxa fide, lib. 1. cap. 14. then out of any of the rest, where he saith: that the good, and all good, and excelling good, that is to say Almighty God, being Goodnes it selfe, would not suffer his sayd Goodnes to remayne sole in himselfe, without communi∣cation therof to others; and therefore created first the Angelicall world, next the Celestiall, and lastly the Ele∣mentall world. And according to this sense, some also do expound the words of S. Iohn in his Ghospell, the first Chapter, where he saith, In mundo erat, meaning therby the Angelicall world: Et mundus per ipsum factus est, ther∣by vnderstanding the Celestiall world, Et mundus eum non cognouit, speaking of this Elemental world of ours; wher∣of Christ himselfe also spake when he said, Regnum meum non est de hoc mundo. And heere haue I set downe these o∣pinions concerning the creation of the world, to the end that the verity of the first may be distinguished from the curiosity of the second. Now then to descend vnto the subdiuision of this Terrestriall world, and the contents therof. First it contayneth the soule of the same, with all the primitiue procreable matters: Secondly it contayneth the foure Elements of Fier, Aire, Water, and Earth, the which are all corruptible, but yet of themselues perfect and vnmixt: Thirdly the mixed Meteors of Haile, Snow, and the like, the which are imperfect: Fourthly the

more perfect bodyes of Mettals and Stones, the which are without life: Fiftly the vitall bodyes of Hearbes, Plants, and Trees, the which are without sense: Sixtly the sen∣sible bodyes of Fishes, Foules, and Beastes, the which are without Reason. And lastly it conteyneth the vitall, sen∣sible, and also reasonable Creature, to wit Man, whom God hath constituted and appoynted to be Lord and Mai∣ster ouer all the rest.

AQVILONIVS.

Not ouer all; for that the woodes and deserts, he hath constitu∣ted for the habitation of wild beastes: The pastures and meddowes for the feeding of cattell: The ayre for that habitation of birdes: and the seas and waters for the feeding of fishes.

SVBSOLANVS.

This doth not alter the case at all, for euen as in a magnificent Pal∣lace, although the Kitchin, Stable, and other like places are more to be inhabited by the seruants, then by the Lord and Patron himselfe; yet the Pallace cannot be said to be made for the seruants, but for the Patron only. And so we may likewise say of the vniuersall World: That though the wild Beastes, Cattell, Birdes, and Fi∣shes do inhabite a great part therof; yet both they them∣selues, and all the rest is made for the benefit of Man only. And that this to be true, what more manifest argument can you haue, then that out of the woods and deserts the strongest Lions, the swiftest Tigers, and the most monstrous Elephantes are taken, and tamed by Men, yea ledde vp and downe the world vnder the obedience and gouerment of Man? Out of the pastures and med∣dowes he draweth to his yoke, the most vntamed Bull: and vnto his bridle the most fierce Horse; and vnto his trap the most rauening Beare, or Wolfe. Out of the aire he bringeth into his snares the wildest sort of birdes, and maketh them after so tame, that though he turne them

loose abroad they obay his voice, and returne againe vnto his lure. And out of the deepest seas he draweth into his nets innumerable sorts of fishes, yea the Whale himselfe falleth many tymes to his Prey, though he be sometimes so bigg, as an hundred men may stand hewing with their axes the flesh of his back.

AQVILONIVS.

Supposing it to be as you say, that man may do great things in the world, yet this would still (me thinkes) be vnderstood, not by his contemning the world, but by his more and more addicting himselfe therunto; otherwise, either he for ••is part should seeme to haue byn made in vayne, or the world it selfe, touching temporall things, to haue been made to small effect.

SVBSOLANVS.

It is no mar∣••ell at all, though the world, with her temporall small ef∣fects, do herin deceaue you, since the same long before, with the only effect of the beauty of the prohibited apple ••n Paradise, deceaued our first Mother Eue, before, by the Serpent, the reasons were yet giuen her to eate therof, Gen. cap. 3.

AQVILONIVS.

My meaning is not to reach so high, as vnto things done in Paradise, for that the case since then is altered with vs not a little; only hereupon I ••elye me, and no more; That the temporall wealth of the world, to those who liue in the same, is not to be contem∣ned.

SVBSOLANVS.

To come downe therfore ••omewhat lower; the world with her glittering temporall wealth, like as now it deceaueth you; so heretofore, in o∣ther kinds, it hath done the like vnto others, as it deceaued the children of Israël with the Moabites, Num. 25. Sampson with Dalida, Iud. 16. Acab with 400. false Prophets, 3. Reg. 22. and Naboth with the false promise made by Acab of a better vineyard then his owne, 3. Reg. 21. the which while Naboth attended to belieue, he was not only depri∣ued of his vineyard, but also of his life. So that, the decea∣uing

snares of the world, be Auarice, Pleasure, Sensuality, Flatterie, and Falsehood: wherof, the Auarice corrupteth, the Pleasure infecteth, the Sensuality wasteth, the Flat∣tery swelleth, and the Falsehood betrayeth: according as in the world, it is easie inough so to do; for that the world it selfe is like a Citty without a wall, a House without a dore, a Shippe without a helme, a Pot without a couer, and a Horse without a bridle.

AQVILONIVS.

None of all this though it cannot be well denied; yet we also our selues, being more or lesse of the same condition that the world is, must be contented to take the temporall euill with the good.

SVBSOLANVS.

Some tem∣porall good, no doubt, there is in the world, though more be the euill, and more frequently appearing then the good it selfe. And therfore in the world there is not any ioy without dolour, any peace without discord, any quiet∣nes without feare, any health without infirmity, any bread without labour, nor any pastime without discon∣tentment: and which is worse, ech where the wicked do persecute the good, as Cain did Abel, Gen. 4. Ismaël, Isaac, Gen. 21. Esau, Iacob, Gen. 27. Saul, Dauid, 1. Reg. 19. and Iezabel, Elias, 3. Reg. 19. who againe for their labour, so soone as they, or any such other, be waxen rich, the world doth make them poore, and those that be poore, it maketh them rich, like as an Houre-glasse putteth the sand out of one cruet into another. So as no worldly man, can haue in the world any animosity at all, for the insta∣bility of his owne estate, readier then to come downe when he is at the highest: and therfore, all the animosi∣ty of the world, remayneth with vertue, whose state and dominion is high and full of generosity, while being as it is in the world, yet it pretendeth nothing of it. For which respect, better it were for a worldly man, to the end he

may the more rely vpon vertue, to quit himselfe of his Wealth of his owne accord, rather then to be corrupted therby, or to see it consume away of it selfe, to his owne greater dolour in the end.

AQVILONIVS.

This counsell of yours is not vnlike vnto his, who aduised his friend, because a tooth of his had bitten his tongue, to pull out the tooth that did it, in reuenge of the dolour re∣ceaued therby; though yet of the two, better a man may liue without teeth, then he may liue without wealth, which must nourish the teeth, the tongue, and all the rest.

SVBSOLANVS.

If men were not seene, to become by occasion of their wealth, worse and worse, according ••s Pharao, Saul, and Ieroboam did, you might haue some colour to defend it: but this being so, much better it were, to be vnto vertue a poore slaue, then to be a rich free∣man to the world: since the worldly man, while he fol∣••oweth attentiuely his worldlines, doth togeather with his worldly Pride loose God, togeather with his worldly Enuie loose his neyghbour, and togeather with his worldly Wealth loose himselfe: making a false shew ther∣by to haue in him that vertue which he hath not, and ••herby couering withall those vices which he hath, be∣cause he is ashamed of them. And yet for all this, he is not able if he would, to rid himselfe of his worldlines, ••ntill he become so bare againe, as when into the world ••e entred first▪ and men, like as if all before had byn but a dreame, he may well resemble himselfe vnto Ionas, who when he fell a sleep, he was couered with a greene Yuy, ••nd when he waked, the Yuy being dried vp, he was left wide open in the parching sunne, ••on. cap. 4. Therfore ••ee in what vnstable state, the meere worldly man doth ••ue and wallow in the world, when he thinketh himselfe ••t the best: though yet still it cannot be denied, but that,

as hath byn said before, all whatsoeuer is in the world, either flying in the aire, or swimming in the water, or resi∣ding vpon the earth, God, indeed, hath made them all for man, and all to be vnder his rule and commaundement, as Lord and Maister of all.

AQVILONIVS.

Then if God at leastwise, who made this terrestriall world, haue appointed man, as you say, to be Maister and Lord of all, what reason is it, that he should not loue the same?

SVB∣SOLANVS.

Let Fauonius answere to this if he will, for that it most of all concerneth himselfe, I hauing already performed so much as my promise was.

FAVONIVS.

I haue not (quoth Fauonius) directly said as yet, that the World is not to be loued, but that the excesse in louing it is to be hated.

AQVILONIVS.

By this which now you say, you affirme neither the one, nor the other, since whatsoeuer is indifferent betwixt Loue and Hate, cannot properly be said either to be loued, or hated.

FAVO∣NIVS.

Perhaps in this you deceaue your selfe, and so much the rather, because a great Deuine in his Booke of Sentences saith: That the world is both to be loued and hated; meaning belike, that it is to be loued as the worke of the Creator, and to be hated as the instrument of temptation vnto sinne.

AQVILONIVS.

Your citation of Diuinity, knowing as I do of what Schoole you be, moueth me not so much, as the reason it selfe of your argument; whereby still you would make it a sinfull thing, I perceaue, for a man to liue in the world, like a worldly man; and yet not yong men alone, but old men also, do by their actions argue the contrary; while as none do proue more worldly then old men themselues, who you know are the wiser sort of men.

FAVONIVS.

For all your making so little accompt of my Diuinity, a daungerous point I can tell you, it is, to determine what is sinne, and

what is not, by this or that mans proceeding only, be he young or old.

AQVILONIVS.

I speake of mul∣titudes both of the oldest & wisest sort of men, and not of any one particuler person alone.

FAVONIVS.

Let them be as old and as wise as they will, it is nether their age, nor their wit (but some other higher mysterie) that can keep them from straying out of the true beaten path of discipline.

AQVILONIVS.

Then belike old men, and the wiser sort of men, do not know what they do.

FAVONIVS.

As though it were not possible for an old Wise man, sometymes to play the Foole?

A∣QVILONIVS.

If he play the Foole in any thing, it is in this, for not to attend to the World, and to his Profit, so much as he ought to do; considering the diuers wantes, to the which Age is dayly more, and more subiect, as Ease, Seruice, Aboundance of clothes, Extraordinary suste∣nance, and the like, which cannot well be had without some store of money.

FAVONIVS.

Nay rather the contrary, for that the more he attendeth in his age to worldlines and Profit, the more he may be said to be ouer∣seene therin; because hauing, as then, but a little while to liue, the same world which bringeth all, carryeth with it all away againe. And therfore so long as old men be mo∣derate in their desires, and cheerfull of Nature, their age, al∣beit it be not accompanied with any great store of Wealth, will not be very noysome vnto them: but if they be im∣moderate & with all melancholy, their age wilbe dolorous vnto them, notwithstanding they be rich. And not only age, but youth also it selfe, in that case, would be no lesse, because it is not the wealth, but the mind which maketh the well contented, either youth or age.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

Me thinkes in this accompt you rest deceaued much, since of the two, the immodest Poore man, who

by reason of his bouldnes can shift for himselfe well in∣ough, would seeme better able to support his age then may the modest Poore man, whose shamefastnes may be an occasion to make him indure much want. Besides that, be∣ing on the one side afflicted with necessity, and on the o∣ther side with feare of his approaching death, he cannot but passe a most miserable age. And therfore I do repute the hauing of wealth, to be a very necessary thing, not only for all sorts of men, but chiefly for old men.

FA∣VONIVS.

Yet it seemeth that in this point you forget your selfe greatly, since old men be of nature so couetous. that when they haue wealth, they be loath to spend it: so that it were allmost as good not to haue it, as to liue be∣sides it, and to feele the affliction of pouerty, no lesse then poore men themselues do, or rather more then they, by rea∣son of the care and solicitude that rich men haue to keep their wealth from being robbed or purloyned from them, which the poore old men be voide of. So that Pouerty and Age would better seeme to agree togeather, then age and welthines; & the rather because when the houre of death approacheth, the poorer sort of men haue lesse anxiety to leaue their pouerty, then haue the more wealthy to for∣sake their riches.

AQVILONIVS.

You please me with this point very well, and say in effect as I would haue you: for that an old man without money, may be likened to a soule without a body. And therfore no mer∣uaile if he desire euery houre to be rather out of the world then in it: And so much the more, because such a poore and needy old man carrieth for the most part his eyes in his pocket, his eares in his belly, his teeth in his girdle, and his legges in his hands, which is but a miserable state to liue in. All which myseries may in an old man that is welthy be supplied, by hauing others to read and write for him, with∣out

vsing his spectacles: and also by hauing others to tell him what a clocke it is, without ayming at his dinner tyme by his hungry stomake: Likewise to haue others to cut & carue his meate for him without carying about him any knife of his owne: And lastly by hauing others to beare him abroad either in his chaire or his coach; without vsing the help either of staffe, or crutches: and therfore of the two, yong men might better want the wealth of the world, then old men; though yet on the o∣ther side a yong man without money may in a contrary similitude to that before of an old man, be likened to a body without a soule, wishing rather in that case to haue neuer come into the world, then so to liue in it. And ther∣fore for ought I can perceaue, it is necessary for youth as∣well as for age, to attend also vnto Worldlines and Pro∣fit, some by one kind of trade, & some by another. And he who hath no trade, nor reuenew to liue by, may v∣surpe the title of a Phisitian, or else of a Lawyet, for that these men get money by bare words only, if others do but conceaue an opinion of them, though they haue no skill at all.

FAVONIVS.

Your counsell were good, and sound if it would worke effect in deeds, so well as it seemeth to do in words: but though an vnskilfull Phisi∣tian may sometymes get money, by practising with men lesse skilfull then himselfe; yet how an vnskilfull Lawyer may be able to do the like, I cannot well perceaue: be∣cause he may happen many tymes to contend with other such Lawers as be skilfull indeed.

AQVILONIVS.

This me thinks might be remedied by two or three ways, according as I haue noted, by obseruing the proceedings of our owne Countrey: to wit, either by a firme, and re∣solute boldnes (the which may many tymes put a sober learned man to silence) or else by bestowing some part

of his owne fees, to get the fauour of the Iudge: or other∣wise by making friendship with his fellow Lawiers, to fauour one another vnderhand, though they make shew to be great aduersaries.

FAVONIVS.

Then by meanes of these helps an vnskilfull Lawier, you suppose, might be able well inough to make his Profit by the Law: As if it were no greater a matter, to become a Lawier, then to become a Clarke of a Market, whose office it is, whensoeuer he is called vpon, to see due measure to be made of Corne.

AQVILONIVS.

And what more I pray you, hath to do the Lawier, then to see good mea∣sure to be made of Contracts, by alledging that, and no more which his Clients euidences and testimonies haue already made knowne vnto him, without further medling with the Law.

FAVONIVS.

This seemeth strange vnto me, how a Lawier may so quite himselfe from knowing the Law, who hath for his profit to excer∣cise the same; when as it is necessary for an ordinary sub∣iect, that hath but only to obay the Law, to be able after a sort to know it.

AQVILONIVS.

It must be (you may suppose) but a very silly knowledg of the Law, that a common Subiect may attaine vnto, and the rather for that the grounds, not only of some old forren Lawes abroad, but also of some newer Lawes vsed in certaine parts of England, be so intricate and obscure, that one Law is contrary to another, and yet both of them houlden for good. As for example concerning old Lawes: The Carthaginians had a Law, that in the tyme of peace no souldiar might steale, because he might liue by any ma∣nuall trade: but in the tyme of warre he might steale, to prouide both for his present need, and also for the tyme to come. The Aegiptians had a contrary Law, that in time of warre no souldiar might steale, for not hindring

therby his Military discipline; but in tyme of peace he might, because he had not then any pay; yet with this con∣dition, that he should write his name for a Theefe in the booke of the hygh Priest, and present vnto him also a note of the stolne goods, to the end, that if the owner redeman∣ded them, they might be restored him, excepting only the fourth part, which was to remayne to the theefe, as also the whole, if it were not redemanded. Were not these Lawes, thinke you, one contrary to another?

FA∣VONIVS.

Contrary they were, and so perhaps the people, who made them, were no lesse cōtrary of nature then their Lawes.

AQVILONIVS.

What say you then to the Athenians, who had amongst them an old Law. That euery man should take two wiues, to the end that no man for variety of pleasure should either keep concubynes, or practise with other mens wiues: wheras on the other side their Neighbours the Lacedemonians, had a contrary old Law, to wit, That euery woman should take two husbāds, to the end that one of them should be still at home, to pro∣uide for the house, while the other was at the warres. Can there any thing be more contrary then these?

FAVO∣NIVS.

You must consider, that those Lawes were made in tyme of Gentility, and also by Cittyes of seuerall Iuris∣dictions, that were emulators in all things one to another.

AQVILONIVS.

I propound you then another example at home amongst our selues, That in one Lordship the el∣dest Sonne is to be heyre, because he is supposed best able to serue his Prince; and in another Lordship the yongest Sonne is to inherite all, because he is least able to prouide for himselfe: be not these also contrary Lawes the one to the other, and yet both of them houlden to be good?

FA∣VONIVS.

If both these Lawes were in vse in two distinct Lordshipes houlden alike by Kinghts seruice, they might

import some contrariety as you say: but your latter case, is only for Landes which are houlden in Socage Tenure, according to our Law terme; and not for all such Landes neither, but for the smallest part therof, and for that part also permitted only by the particuler customes of some Mannours, and not so cōmaunded by the Law; the which Law may be knowne, no doubt, well inough vnto all, or the most part of those who haue to obay it, notwith∣standing your alledged contradiction.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

Let vs then consider this other reason, Whether ordinary subiects should be bound so strictly to know the Law, when as that which was Law the last yeare, may this yeare be no Law at all, by occasion of some new Sta∣tute made against it?

FAVONIVS.

Then by this accompt, because the last yeare there was peace and this yeare warre, the subiects should not be bound to know when it is peace, and when warre; not that I will infer hereof, that euery common Subiect should know the Law, so exactly and particulerly as Lawiers themselues, who make their profit of it; but only to know the same superficially and in generall: that is to say, partly by Tra∣dition, and partly by naturall Reason.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

Then naturall Reason by your owne confession is halfe inough of it selfe in subiects, to make them to know so much of the Law as is necessary for their voca∣tion.

FAVONIVS.

You say very well, for so much haue I confessed already indeed.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

But he who doth know any part of the Law by naturall Reason, may he not execute by naturall Reason so much therof in his practise as he knoweth?

FAVO∣NIVS.

I will not greatly deny, but that naturall Reason alone may serue well inough the turne to execute all sorts of priuate Iustice, the which extendeth it selfe no further

then for one Neighbour to render to another his dew, so far forth as Humanity, and Charity do oblige him ther∣unto: But for the practise of publike Iustice in Courts of Record, there is required the help of more art, according as hath been said before.

AQVILONIVS.

Then by this I perceaue you will now allot vs two sorts of Iu∣stice, wherof the one hath to proceed from the morality of the mynd, and the other from the equity of the Law.

FAVONIVS.

Not only from the equity of the Law, which consisteth in the Reason therof; but also from the force of the Law, which consisteth in the authority of the same: the first being to be called the Body, and the second the Soule; and both of them tending togeather, to teach as well what is good, as to prohibite what is euil; without which two helps (as saith Plutarke, in his Mo∣rals) it were hard for vs to inioy the benefits which God hath bestowed vpon the world. And therfore not with∣out cause it is said by Plato, in the ninth of his Laws, That men without Law, nihil à feris atrocissimis discreparent.

A∣QVILONIVS.

And yet I haue heard it said, That those men be better that haue no Lawes at all, then those that haue good Lawes, and do not keep them.

FA∣VONIVS.

The reason is, because good Lawes vnkept do in some sort extenuate the ordinary Law of Nature; for that with such as haue no written Lawes at all, the Law of Nature is seene to be more of force.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

In all places where I haue been the Law of Nature is much extenuated, for that euery where I find good Lawes inough, but very few of them executed, ex∣cept against poore men only: wheras the rich by force of their wealth, do escape all penalty; like as the great flies do passe through the Cobwebs, but the little ones, not being able, do rest intrapped.

FAVONIVS.

But do

you take this to be the fault of the Law, or of those who should better execute the same?

AQVILONIVS.

Of the executors therof, and not of the Law; for that the Law it selfe is always good, and profitable, if it be execu∣ted accordingly.

FAVONIVS.

All these things being well considered, then how may your ignorant Law∣ier, before mentioned, be able by his Ignorance to make any profit to himselfe, in the practise and execution of the Law, without knowing the same?

AQVILONIVS.

His said practise alone, if not in the principall Courtes of Record, yet in their inferiour Courtes of Iustice, wilbe able in a little while to teach him so much knowledg of the Law, as he may make a competent profit of it.

FA∣VONIVS.

Then you will haue him at the first to sell that vnto others, which he hath not himselfe, vntill at their charges and also losses, his said ignorant practise may haue yielded him both knowledg and profit: which were as much to say, as for the following of his worldlines, to be∣come a publick deceauer, and a betrayer of Iustice.

A∣QVILONIVS.

Me thinks you go a little to farre in ap∣plying those vndecent Termes, vnto such a ciuill way of getting money, as is the trade of Lawiers.

FAVO∣NIVS.

Then what haue you to say to the words of Laer∣tius: Quòd damnum potiù••, quàm turpe lucrum ••li••••ndum est?

AQVILONIVS.

As much as you can be able to say to the words of Iuuenall: Lucribonus odor ex re qualibet. Let vs set the Hares head vnto the Goose giblets, and so make vp the quittance.

FAVONIVS.

I see by this, you be apt inough inclined to proportion the measure of honesty by the measure of riches, and not the measure of riches by the measure of honesty.

AQVILONIVS.

I can tell you, that to talke now adayes too much of honesty, chiefly amongst young men who attend vnto Profit, is a

thing that euery where offendeth the stomake; and the rather, for that to shunne any kind of commodity, for scrupulousnes of honesty, wilbe attributed to folly more then to wisdome.

FAVONIVS.

Do you not know that euery commodity bringeth with it her incommodi∣ty, and that commonly, according to the Prouerbe, Ill gotten goods, are ill spent.

AQVILONIVS.

Let them be spent as ill as they will, while at the leastwise, this I do know well inough, that he who speaketh against Commodity and Profit, speaketh against Industrie, a∣gainst Sodality, yea against Iustice it selfe: for that if Iustice were not commodious and profitable, who would extoll her to be the Queene of the World, according as commonly she is reputed euery where to be?

¶ Heere Subsolanus perceauing that Fauonius began to make some shew of wearines, said vnto Aquilinius, somewhat angerly.

SVBSOLANVS.

O sacred Iustice, how many be there, that doe calumniate thy Name, and how few on the other side, that do seeke to defend thee!

AQVILONIVS.

Aliud ex alio malum: there is now another stone fallen into the well, which is like to disturbe all the water. What cause haue you (said Aquilonius) to make any such exclamation in fauour of Iustice; when as nothing hath yet been spoken, that may any way sound to her derogation?

SVBSOLANVS.

As though it were no derogation vnto her to be extolled more for the mercenarie Commodity that may be made of her, then for her owne proper integrity.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

Hould your selfe contented, for I haue only made mention of her, comformably vnto that her exter∣nall part, which is most appropriated vnto vs, and to our particuler good, leauing her internall integrity vnto her selfe, as a part of her owne Essence.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

Then belike you take the Essence of Iustice to be made of many mixtures, since you impute integrity to be one of them.

AQVILONIVS.

Whether integrity be her whole Essence, or but a part therof, I will not much stand vpon it; since vnto me it shall suffice, that she be on∣ly voyd of passion, because the same obscureth the true vnderstanding of Controuersies betwixt partie and par∣ty.

SVBSOLANVS.

Altogeather without pas∣sion she cannot well be, for then she should haue in her no anger wherwith to punish the wicked, nor yet on the o∣ther side, no affectionate loue, wherewith to incite her to reward the good.

AQVILONIVS.

By this it would seeme to follow, since you begin to reckon vp ap∣petites, that it were requisite also for her to be somewhat suspitious, to the end she may penetrate into the malice of all false measures and meanings.

SVBSOLANVS.

Your meaning seemeth to be good, but your termes a∣gree not therewith, since the same appetite or passion, which in men of little wit is called Suspition, may be cal∣led in the wiser sort, by the name of Circumspection; the which of it selfe may suffice vnto the doing of Iustice well inough betwixt party and party; because no Iudge is bound to proceed beyond that which is produced, ex∣cept in Criminall Causes only: for that in these, it is re∣quisite, to proceed sometimes by due coniectures; I meane in causes touching life and death, at the least touching the preuention of diuers sorts of euills, the which might grow too farre, if nothing should be attempted against the contriuers therof, vntill the commenced crime might be iuridically proued.

AQVILONIVS.

If all this be true, that in ciuill causes a Iudge hath not to proceed any further by his art, then according to the proofe pro∣duced, and that also in Criminall Causes he may leaue,

if he will, all art a side, and proceed by coniectures: then as little Law, for the getting of his liuing may serue vnto a Iudge, as may haue serued our foresaid practising Law∣ier, since naturall reason alone, is able still in Criminall Causes to penetrate far inough by coniecture, as also to distinguish the right from the wronge in Ciuill Causes, when sufficient euidence is giuen on both sides, and he not to passe any further, then according to the same.

SVBSOLANVS.

Then any man that hath not meanes to liue by, may counterfait himselfe for his profit to be of what Trade he will; and so by little and little ascend vnto the highest degree of his counterfaite profession.

AQVILONIVS.

You say very well herein, for such is now the practise of the world. As for example, how ma∣ny simple Apothecaries haue ascended by that meanes to be formall Phisitians? How many petty Scholemaisters haue mounted to be preachers in Diuinity, as if they had been Doctours of that art? and how many crafty Scribes in vnder Offices haue growne to be estemed for substan∣tiall Lawiers? and also of these, how many haue after∣wards become to be Stewards vnto Noble men of their Lands, and so by sitting there as Iudges, to render Iustice betwixt partie and partie, perhaps with as little Law in their heads, as they had abstinence in their hands, from taking of bribes?

SVBSOLANVS.

Then a man that hath no skill in the Law at all, may not only for his profit be a practising Lawier, as you haue said, but may now also rise vp to be a certaine kind of Iudge, and so to know in that office how to execute Iustice.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

Albeit you speake this in derogation of that vnskilfull Iudge of myne; yet so long as he with the good liking and satisfaction of others, can know how to make to himselfe a sufficient cōmodity of his said profession,

what more skill should he need to require?

SVBSO∣LANVS.

So that this Iudge of yours, if he haue sufficient skill to sell Iustice for money, which is a reproachfull thing, you thinke him for all the rest, to be able inough to execute that office. As if to know how to make his owne profit, were to know how to execute Iustice.

A∣QVILONIVS.

Though you seeme to make the execu∣tion of Iustice so hard a matter, yet I cannot see why such an vnlearned Iudge may not do it very wel, only by know∣ing how to abstaine from doing Iniustice.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

This is a new kind of learning, scarcely heard of before, and therfore not thought of by many.

A∣QVILONIVS.

It is not so new as you imagine; for it is the doctrine of Socrates, who said (as Xenophon reporteth) that the very abstayning from doing Iniustice, is Iustice it selfe.

SVBSOLANVS.

If this were true, as you say (that to abstaine from Iniustice, were Iustice) then to abstaine from not committing any foolish Act, should be Prudence; and to abstaine from not doing any temera∣rious enterprize, should be Fortitude; and also to abstaine from not eating of poyson, should be Temperance. But Vertue it selfe being otherwise agreed vpon by the Philo∣sophers, not to consist at all in the leauing of any euill thing vndone, but in the voluntary doing of good things, therfore none of tho••e former abstinences in manner and former as they be related, can be truly reckoned for Ver∣tues. As also againe, they cannot yet be Vertues, for ano∣ther reason; to wit, because whatsoeuer is equally distant from payne and reward, cannot be either Vice or Ver∣tue; such I meane, as may be either offensiue, or helping vnto others. For if it merit not to be punished, it is no such criminall Vice as the Law taketh care of; and on the other side, if it merit no reward, it is no such eminent Vertue as

is had in any estimation. For where do you find, that any State or Citty did euer reward any man, because he was a Drunkard? or did euer receaue any one to be a Citti∣zen amongst them, because he was a Glutton? or did euer prefer any man to be an Arbitrator in Controuersies, because he was a sluggard? But to the end this may yet ap∣peare vnto you more plainely, I will propound you ano∣ther example. The famous Aristid•• of Athens, a man of great authority but very poore, was sent by the Senators of that Citty, vnto certaine their Confederate Ilanders, partly to moderate their excesse of payments (because they tended to Rebellion) & partly to gather vp certaine old Tributes. This Aristides hauing by his wisdome set all things in go••d order amongst them, returned home a∣gaine, more poore then he went forth, without hauing benefited himselfe any thing at all by that office, as many others would haue done. Heere I say, if any one should haue gone about to haue perswaded the Cittizens of Athen••, that Aristides did merit to be receaued home with great Triumph and Honour because in executing the of∣fice committed vnto his charge, he had not taken, to su∣staine his pouerty any vnlawfull bribe at all; would not this▪ thinke you, haue been rather laughed at, then graun∣ted? Wheras on the other side, if it should haue been said vnto them, that Aristides did merit to be receaued home with Triumph and Honour for as much as hauing wise∣ly moderated the excesse of those payments, and reduced downe the old tributes vnto the ability of the people, who were before oppressed therby, and that he had so preuen∣ted a generall reuolt of all those miscontented Ilanders from the confederation of the Athenians. Heerein this se∣cond case; I say the fame being thus propounded, the Cit∣tizens could hardly haue thought him vnworthy, either

of Triumph, or of some other Honour, because by his iust operation in that action he had stood them in great steed, and done them great seruice; wheras in the same very case as it was propounded before, no such Triumph or Honour could well be graunted him, because nothing therein was said to be done by him, worthy of the Honour demaunded, but somewhat only left vndone, touching his owne par∣ticuler, which merited no publike remuneration. And therfore for all these reasons put togeather, I may now conclude against your former assertion, that the not doing of Iniustice, is no worke of Iustice at all, because Iustice consisteth not in the leauing of any vniust thing vndone, but in the skilfull executing of that which is iust.

A∣QVILONIVS.

Notwithstanding all this, if on the o∣ther side it may be truly said, as all the morall Writers do affirme, that the first part of Vertue, is to abstaine from Vice; why then may it not be said as well, that the first part of Iustice, is to abstaine from Iniustice?

SVB∣SOLANVS.

These be different manners of speaking, to say, that the first part of Iustice is to abstaine from Iniu∣stice, and to say, that to abstaine from Iniustice, is Iustice: for though the extremity of one contrary, may be the be∣ginning of another; yet they cannot enter the one into the other. As for Example, the extremity of too much Liber∣ty, may be the beginning of Seruitude, but yet not part of Seruitude, for that Liberty & Seruitude can haue no affini∣ty togeather, no more then Iustice and Iniustice; and therfore though a man, altogeather vnlearned, may leaue sometimes to do Iniustice, yet can he hardly be a good Iu∣sticer, nor know how to do Iustice, without speciall skill in the Law: so that the doing of Iustice is a thing of grea∣ter moment, then the leauing of Iniustice vndone; for that this may be common vnto euery man, whereas the o∣ther

is but proper vnto Lawiers only.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

So as your meaning is, that Iustice doth not con∣sist in leauing any vniust thing vndone, but in doing of that which is iust, not according to euery skilfull mans conceipt therof, but as the Law it selfe ordaineth, the which ordaineth nothing but that which Iustice doth de∣termine and commaund.

SVBSOLANVS.

You say well, and according to my meaning: wherupon it would follow, that if to do that which the Law commaundeth, should be Iustice, then the resistance and not doing of that which the Law commaundeth, should be Iniustice.

A∣QVILONIVS.

It may be well inough as you say, though yet your speach be somewhat too strict, and not according to the common vnderstanding therof.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

Then you haue belike some scruple in your head whether it be so, or no.

AQVILONIVS.

As touching my scruples, take you no care, for when they be of any moment, they shallbe sufficiently made knowne vn∣to you.

SVBSOLANVS.

So that without any scruple of yours herein, you will haue me to vnderstand that Iustice & Iniustice, may he said to be contraries.

A∣QVILONIVS.

According as you haue laied them so opposite one to another, they would seeme at the leastwise so to be.

SVBSOLANVS.

Then belike they be not so indeed.

AQVILONIVS.

Since you will needs vrge me so farre, I must tell you, that as contrary as you seeme to make them, yet diuers tymes it happeneth, that one and the same man, may be both iust and vniust as well as one and the same man may be a Niggard and Prodigall; the which if they were meerly contraries, could not come so to passe.

SVBSOLANVS.

I do not vnderstand you well, in neither of these cases.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

Tell me then, I pray you, He that is a Niggard

in eating, or in apparrelling, or in paying his seruantes wages; may he not be Prodigall either in building, or in furniture of houshould, or in bestowing vpon flatterers?

SVBSOLANVS.

I do not deny but that so it may be.

AQVILONIVS.

And soon the other side, he that is iust to his friends, may he not be vniust to his enemies, as diuers be seene now a dayes to be?

SVBSOLANVS.

I will not greatly stand vpon it.

AQVILONIVS.

Then hereby it would appeare, that Iustice and Iniustice are not so meerly contraryes as you suppose them to be.

SVBSOLANVS.

To the end you may the better know what my conceyt is herein, let me aske you ere we go any further this other question; That same worldly Profit of yours, wherof you haue spoken so much before, shall we say, that it is contrary to Disprofit, or that it is not?

A∣QVILONIVS.

I like so little of Disprofit, and so well of Profit, that I am content to admit them for contraries.

SVBSOLANVS.

So that no Disprofit can be profitable, nor no Profit disprofitable.

AQVILONIVS.

You say very truely herein.

SVBSOLANVS.

For, if Disprofit could be profitable, or Profit disprofitable, they should not be contraryes.

AQVILONIVS.

We agree hitherto very well.

SVBSOLANVS.

And yet it hapeneth sometimes, that the giuing of ten shillings to a poore friend, that would borrow ten pounds, is a pro∣fitable Disprofit: as on the other side, the taking a horse in gift of one that intrudeth therby to soiourne some while at his house, is a disprofitable Profit.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

What will you inferre hereupon?

SVBSO∣LANVS.

I inferre, that as Profit and Disprofit are merely contraryes, by your owne confession, and yet one and the selfe same thing may be profitable & disprofitable; so also one man may be iust and vniust, though Iustice and Iniu∣stice

be contraries; which Consequence you seemed to deny before, affirming, that if Iustice and Iniustice were meerly contraries, one man could not be both iust and iniust.

AQVILONIVS.

Whatsoeuer I haue said before concerning this point according to the vulgar opinion, that which I wished to be debated, and do now affirme, is, that Iustice, and Iniustice may be both of them profitable, and disprofitable. As first, concer∣ning their Disprofit, I say, that as well Iustice as Iniu∣stice may be disprofitable to such Iudges, or Magistrates, as do runne too apparantly without any artificiall mode∣ration, either vnto the one extremity, or the other, wher∣by they become to be either of them poore: the violent Iniusticer by his infamie, and the violent Iusticer by his scrupulosity; the one of which causes may be exem∣plified in the person of Hyperbolus, and the other in the person of the allready specified Aristides, both of them Cittizens of Athens; the first the iniustest, and the second the iustest of the times they liued in, and acknowledged of all men to be such; who died both of them alike, that is to say very poore, and in vtter disgrace of the people.

SVBSOLANVS.

Touching those two men, I shall tell you my mynd, when you shall haue made a full end of your narration.

AQVILONIVS.

And now on the other side, I say againe vnto you, that Iustice and In∣iustice may be both of them said to be profitable, special∣ly vnto such kind of Iudges, or Magistrates, as do know how to runne a middle course betwixt the extremities of Iustice and Iniustice, wherby secretly, and couertly, ma∣king their Profit the one of his Iustice, the other of his In∣iustice, they become both of them Rich: the first of which causes may be exemplified in Pericles and Alcibiades in Athens, and the second may be in Lysander, and Agesilaus

in Lacedemonia, who knew the way so well to runne the middle course betwixt scrupulous Iustice & defamed In∣iustice, as all of them died very rich, & not only well estee∣med in their Cittyes, but famous also to the world abroad: which hap befell not in Rome it selfe, neither to Graccus, nor yet to Cato, notwithstanding they were reputed of all other, the iustest men of their tyme, who, as I haue said; not knowing how to runne this myddle course, died both of them miserably.

SVBSOLANVS.

You haue here alledged these examples in regard of the successes hap∣pened, not as they were indeed: but yet you do not pene∣trate aright into the true causes of the same. For that the Citty of Athens, in the tyme of Hyperbolus, had great fame for the integrity of Iustice practised therin, and therfore no meruaile, though such an iniust man was there of no reputation; wheras after, in the tyme of Aristides, Athens was become to be infamous for Iniustice according as Rome was also in the tyme of Graccus and Cato; and therefore as little meruaile it is, that such iust men as they, could not thriue there amongst them: but when Lysander and Agesi∣laus liued in Lacedemonia, and Pericles and Alcibiades in A∣thens, both of these Cittyes were neither apparantly iust, nor apparantly iniust; and therfore for men of their con∣ditions to grow to be great in such Cittyes, as were allrea∣dy like vnto themselues, it is also no great meruaile: so as that artificiall Iustice, and Iniustice, wherof you haue spoken, be not alwayes sure to prosper, or to passe vnre∣prehended, if not also punished; chiefly if the gouerment vnder which those men do liue, be iust and vpright of it selfe: and therfore your reasons before alledged in the be∣halfe of those particulers, be not altogeather so firme as you supposed.

AQVILONIVS.

These be no more but distinctions of ages and places, when & where Iustice

and Iniustice may be more or lesse profitable or disprofi∣table; but do not therfore disproue, that Iniustice some∣times may not be profitable, and Iustice disprofitable; nor yet on the other side, that Iniustice sometimes may not be disprofitable, and Iustice profitable: I meane at leastwise vnto such a Iudge, or Magistrate, as knoweth how to sell the same for money, which yet it may be, you will also reckon togeather with the rest to be a kind of In∣iustice.

SVBSOLANVS.

You say well, and ac∣cording as I do reckon it indeed; but yet to be such a kind of Iniustice, as is farre more tolerable then is the viola∣ting of Iustice, by the doing of Iniquity and Wrong: and therfore taking Iustice to be commodious in the truest sense, as when it is executed for Equity, and not for Gai∣nes, in this sort I say, my meaning is not to disproue at all (as you before would seeme to suppose) that either Iu∣stice is profitable, or Iniustice disprofitable: but rather the contrary, to wit, that Iniustice may be profitable, or Iustice any way disprofitable, either to the publicke, or else in particuler.

AQVILONIVS.

Then all the difficulty resteth still (I perceaue) touching those two latter points, wherin leauing aside for a while to speake of disprofitable Iustice, till better place may serue for the same, I cannot for the rest but meruaile with my selfe, how you haue not yet perceaued out of my former Ex∣amples, that Iniustice sometymes may be profitable.

SVBSOLANVS.

You must vnderstand, that I haue perceaued so much the lesse for these considerations fol∣lowing; because if Iniustice may be profitable, it must be profitable either to the whole State in general (the which I thinke you will not say) or els to the Executor therof in particuler; and this also but in some reserued sort of proceeding only, since in Causes of publike and apparant

Iniquity by your owne confession, it cannot be so; vnto which reserued sort I do now begin to answere you, that though by deceipt of vnderstanding, such a cunning cor∣rupted Iudge may suppose to gaine therby, yet in the end when he commeth to put togeather his reckoning, and to make vp his whole accompt, he will not find it to be so.

AQVILONIVS.

What better accompt will you haue him, or can he desire to make for himselfe here∣in (I meane according to the present state of the world, and his better meanes also to be able to withstand the mi∣series therof) then to find himselfe prouided therby of all kind of necessaryes belonging to the maintenance of his degree and state, the which some other of his owne pro∣fession and trade, either for too much scrupulosity, or els for too little dexterity do many times want.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

So that you would haue him (I perceaue) at one and the very same time, to serue himselfe not only of Iniustice, but also of Iustice, vsing the one fraudulent∣ly, and vnderhand for his secret gaine, and exteriourly vsing the other for his reputation only, and to colour therby the Iniquity of Iniustice.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

The custome of the world now-a-dayes is come, I can tell you, but vnto little better passe.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

Then all those Iudges, who will not after this manner be vniust, may be accompted for silly men.

AQVILONIVS.

For silly men you may be sure, and the rather because, by the art and authority of the said vn∣iust sort of Iudges, the Iustice of the Iust is many times reputed to be counterfait, and suborned Iniustice.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

So that the iniust Magistrate by this meanes getteth not only wealth, but also reputation to be accomp∣ted an administrator of Iustice, while the iust Magistrate liueth poorly, and is with all reputed to be iniust by the

false suggestion of his fraudulent Aduersaries.

A∣QVILONIVS.

We see it for the most part to come so to passe.

SVBSOLANVS.

Wherupon it followeth that to learne to be a cunning Iniusticer, were a very pro∣fitable kind of art?

AQVILONIVS.

Our inten∣tion being heere to speake of Profit, I cannot alledge you any Art that may be more profitable; and that profitable Artes are not to be neglected, is not my thinking alone, but the opinion of Plato (in the eight of his Lawes) who saith, Omnes complectuntur artes ex quibus lucrum consequi potest.

SVBSOLANVS.

Though Plato signifyed in those words that men be prone to imbrace any profitable Art; yet meant he not that all profitable Artes, are to be imbraced (but only such as are lawfull) and least of all any Art that tendeth to the corruption of publicke Iu∣stice, as it euidently appeareth throughout all his Workes, and especially in his Bookes de Republica, and of his Lawes, wherin all his doctrine tendeth to nothing els, but to frame a most happy Common Wealth by the administration of sincere Iustice: and therfore he specially endeauoreth to make most iust and vertuous Magistrates.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

But what say you then to Cicero? Was he not held for a good Magistrate, and yet he saith in the third of his Offices, Cùm aliqua species vtilitatis obiecta est, nos commo∣ueri necesse est. And againe: Omnes appetimus vtilitatem, & ad eam rapimur.

SVBSOLANVS.

He saith not this to incite men to the practise of all kind of Profit, but only to shew the imbecillity of man, desirous of that which impayreth his Condition; & that Profit and Wealth do so, we may gather by the Philosopher, in the third of his Politi∣ques, where he saith; Lucrum facit homines detetiores: the which is confirmed by Deip. apud Volat. where he also saith; Nisi lucrum esset, nemo fuisset improbus: and all this

the rather, because (as saith another moderne Writer) Wealth is a great nourisher of Vice, and Pouerty of Vertue. And albeit this were not so, yet the too much desire of Profit is the rather to be bridled, because though the manner of gayning may be neuer so honest: yet saith Seneca (Epist. 95.) Lucrum sine damno alterius fieri non potest. And so much also the more, when Iniustice it selfe is fraudulently vio∣lated for cause of lucre: Nam tale turpe lucrum accusatio natu∣rae est, as we read apud Strobaeum.

AQVILONIVS.

If Nature be accused therby, it is rather for taking too much delight therin, then for any misliking at all it hath of the same.

SVBSOLANVS.

If your fraudulent Iniustice be not only so good and so profitable a thing as you make it, but with all so agreable vnto Nature it selfe, as you say, we may then (me thinkes) do well to place the same amongst the number of Vertues.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

If it were not for one exception only, which occurreth to me at this present, it might be a thing (I can tell you) to be thought on, but that indeed the words of Cicero (in the fifth of his Tusculans) are plainely against it, where he saith; Nulla potest esse virtus nisi gratuita.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

You haue done well to thinke of that ex∣ception your selfe, for otherwise you must haue byn made to remember it out of Pontanus (lib. 2. de Prud.) where he saith; Virtus nihil, quod extra se est, quaerit.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

It is so much the worse for her selfe, you may be sure, since therby she liueth in such continuall penury and pouerty as she doth.

SVBSOLANVS.

But yet at the leastwise by you owne confession, we may say that Iustice though she be neuer so poore, yet hath she alwayes her place amongst the Vertues.

AQVILONIVS.

We may so.

SVBSOLANVS.

And that Iniustice consequently though she be neuer so rich, is alwayes to be

placed amongst the Vices.

AQVILONIVS.

By rigour of speach, you may say your pleasure thereof, though on the other side for the Profit that riseth therby, more gentle and more moderate words might be vsed of it.

SVBSOLANVS.

Then you suppose (I per∣ceaue) that for these former respects it were somewhat too rigorous a kind of speaking to say, that Iniustice were a vicious thing.

AQVILONIVS.

I do so indeed, as also because, whereas no man knoweth well how to be able to liue in the world, except he haue Fortunes fa∣uour, Iniustice of it selfe alone, and without any other help at all, can get him the goods of Fortune; the which on the other side, if we will credit him, who commenteth vpon the seauenth Booke of the Politiques, the first Chap∣ter, Iustice of her selfe is not able so to do.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

So as Iustice and Vertue, you will haue them to giue place vnto Riches and Fortune.

A∣QVILONIVS.

It is not my censure alone, for Horace himselfe (Satyr 3. lib. 2.) is also of the same opinion, where he saith, That he who is rich, Erit vbique clarus f••r∣tis, sapiens, etiam Rex, & qui••quid volet.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

That is to say, he may seeme perhappes to be such, but not so indeed.

AQVILONIVS.

Do you call it but a seeming so to be, when as in flat termes the said Author saith further in the same place, That vn∣to Riches, Non solùm Virtus, sed etiam Fama, Decus, Diuina Humana{que} parent.

SVBSOLANVS.

He speaketh it as a Satyrical Poet, only to carpe at the abuse of the time, as by these other his words elsewhere we may well disco∣uer, In pretio pretium nunc est, and not that he thinketh, it ought to be so indeed, but that the corruption of man∣ners had then brought it so to passe: the which corrup∣tion of manners, is wont specially to raigne amongst the

followers of Riches, as we may gather by Lactantius (de falsa Relig.) where he saith: Voluntas fingendi, & mentien∣di est eorum qui opes appetunt, & lucra desiderant; and there∣fore it were better for you to giue eare vnto Horace him∣selfe, when he speaketh seriously, saying: Quòd pecunia studium fidem, probitatem, ceteras{que}ue bonas artes subuertit; also vnto Salust, where he saith, Domat omnia Virtus: and againe; Quicquid homines arant, nauigant, aedificant, Virtuti omnia parent: the which is confirmed likewise by Plautus, who saith, Virtuti Fortuna cedit: so that not Vertue vnto Riches, but Riches vnto Vertue stoupeth and obaieth. In which respect Cicero saith, Virtute qui praediti sunt, soli sunt diuites, because those that be truly vertuous be all∣wayes firme and stable, and out of all feare of Fortunes checkes; quia nihil eripit Fortuna, nisi quod ipsa dedit, as saith Seneca (de tranquil.) Now then of all the morall Vertues, none is either more gratefull to God, or necessary and profitable to Man, then Iustice, without the which no Comon Wealth can stand: as also on the other side, no Vice is either more hateful vnto God and pernicious vnto man, then Iniustice, which destroyeth all Common wealths and Ciuill Societies by the iust iudgment of God, who, as the holy Scripture testifieth (Deut. 25.) Auersatur omnem Iniustitiam: wherof I will speake more amply in the Conclusion of this dayes Conference; meaning first to heare all that you meane to say, before I will much presse you with Diuine Authority, which (as I presume) you do not meane to contradict.

¶ Heere Fauonius supposing that Aquilonius had well neere forgotten himselfe of the latter part of his for∣mer partition, began to say thus vnto him.

FA∣VONIVS.

What haue you now I pray you, after this your defence of profitable Iniustice, to say further tou∣ching

that other point of disprofitable Iustice, wherof you also promised to treate?

AQVILON.

I haue to say more perhappes, then you be aware of, and therefore to descend now into this other branch, I must first tell you, That two wayes Iustice may be disprofitable, the one Pri∣uate, the other Publick: and as for the former, to wit, how Iustice may sometimes be priuately disprofitable, I haue already declared it by the example of Aristides, of Graccus, and of Cato: and how also it may be publikely dis∣profitable, that is to say, by determinate sentence giuen betwixt party and party, I will now shew you by other examples.

FAVONIVS.

I like it well that you meane to proceed by examples, rather then by argument.

AQVILONIVS.

To content you then according to your owne liking: What Profit I pray you, did rise to the Troyans of the sentence pronounced by Paris, about the di∣stribution of the goulden Apple, in the Vale of Ida; when as the ruine of Paris himselfe, and of his whole Country ensued therby?

FAVONIVS.

This in effect was no more but a Poeticall fiction, and not any formall sen∣tence of Iustice; so that it serueth your purpose nothing at all.

AQVILONIVS.

What say you then to the sentence giuen in the cause of a Scholler and his Maister, who being promised twenty crownes when he had taught him the Art of perswading, sued him for his money. Vnto whome the Scholler said: If I can perswade the Iudge that I owe thee nothing, then nothing thou art to haue; and if I cannot perswade him so, then nothing also is dew vnto thee, because thou hast not taught me the Art of perswa∣ding. Whereupon the Maister replied; If thou canst per∣swade the Iudge, that thou owest me nothing, then art thou to pay me, because thou hast learned of me the Art of perswading: and if thou canst not perswade him so, then

so much the more thou art to pay me, for that the sentence will fall on my side. So that whether thou perswade him, or not perswade him, thou art still to pay me. Heere I say in this cause, the sentence being giuen for the Scholler, what Profit could come vnto him thereof: when as by ha∣uing perswaded the Iudge to belieue him, he discouered to haue learned of his Maister, so much as he had promised to teach him, and therfore rested still bound to pay him for the same?

FAVONIVS.

This is rather a Paradoxe then a sentence, and therfore can auaile you as little as that other before.

AQVILONIVS.

Let vs then consi∣der the sentence of Cyrus, while he was but yet young, a∣bout the taking from a little boy, a Coate which was too long for him, and from a great boy, another Coate which was too short for him, causing them to be vested with ech others coates: which sentence what Profit could it bring vnto either of them, when as neither was contented with that exchange?

FAVONIVS.

This was but a Childes play, and therfore by the Tutor vnto Cyrus it was presently reuoked, and so serueth you also but vnto small effect.

AQVILONIVS.

I would then know, what you will say vnto the sentence of Xerxes King of Asia, who to saue his owne life, in a Tempest at sea, was perswaded by his Pilot to cast ouer board all his chiefe Gentlemen, and when he came on shore, he ordeyned a Crowne of Gould to be giuen to the Pilot, for hauing sa∣ued his life, & incontinently after, iudged him to be han∣ged, for hauing byn the cause of the death of so many wor∣thy Gentlemen: wherupon I would know, what Profit grew either to the State, or to the Pilot by this kind of sen∣tence, when as the one lamented still the losse of their No∣bility, and the other with his owne death, paid the sauing of the Kinges life?

FAVONIVS.

This was no more

but the will and fantasie of a King, and not any formall sentence giuen by the way of processe, and therfore not auaylable.

AQVILONIVS.

Let vs then consi∣der this other sentence, in the cause of a poore Tyler, who falling downe from a house brake his legge, and kil∣led another man vpon whom he fell; whose Sonne suing for Iustice, receaued this Iudgement, that he should go vp to the toppe of the same house, and fall vpon the Tyler, & kill him if he could, as the Tyler fell vpon his Father: of which sentence, what Profit I pray you, ensued either to the one man for breaking of his legge, or vnto the other for his Fathers death.

FAVONIVS.

This was but a shift of a cūning Iudge, to make an end of an imper∣tinent quarrell, with a more impertinent arbitrement, and therfore as little to the purpose, as the rest before.

A∣QVILONIVS.

What say you then to the sentence con∣cerning an Inhabitant of one of the old Cittyes in Greece, who hauing deliuered his Country from a notorious pe∣rill, was by a particuler Law of theirs to be graunted any one petition he would aske, and so he demanding another mans wife, had her; whose first husband hauing shortly after done such another like seruice to his Country, de∣manded his owne wife againe, wherin was giuen this sen∣tence; Let the Law take place. If the Law do take place, said the first husband, she is wholy myne, for that I haue wonne her: and if the Law do not take place, then also is she myne, because she was myne before. Wherunto the second husband replied thus: If so the Law take place, she is wholy mine, because the same Law hath already giuen her me; and if the Law do not take place, then can she not be thine, because thou hast no Law to claime her from me that haue receaued her by the Law. Wherupon by a second sentence she was sequestred from them both,

to the great discontentment of the one & the other: ther∣fore tell me now, if you can, what Profit did grow vnto any of them, by either of these sentences?

FAVO∣NIVS.

This is a kind of Riddle rather then a case of Law, and therfore to be reiected with the rest.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

What say you then to the sentence that was gi∣uen not many yeares ago, at home in our owne Coun∣try, against the Maiesty of Mary the late most Memora∣ble Queene of Scotland; was it not a disprofitable thing to the State, to sentēce in such sort, such an absolute Prin∣cesse, as was no way subiect to the iurisdiction of those who gaue that sentence against her?

FAVONIVS.

You be now descended indeed into so notorious a case of our owne, that may not well be so easily reiected, as haue been your other before. Concerning the which, for as much as my selfe do know certaine good and assured par∣ticulers, such as may giue you some satisfaction, if they might be related, I will not therfore sticke to say, and affirme vnto you, that hitherto at the least no disprofit hath ensued therof, neither vnto our State, nor vs.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

Do you thinke that Dishonour and vniuer∣sall foule Imputation to haue committed therin such an act of Incongruity as was neuer yet heard of before, nor will euer be left to be spoken of to the worlds end; do you thinke (I say) that it is no Disprofit vnto your State?

FAVONIVS.

Was she not, I pray you, found culpable of all the contriued crymes that were brought in euidence against her, the which being true, as it cannot well be de∣nied, what cause then haue you to crie out so much, as you do, vpon the Incongruity of that Sentence giuen?

AQVILONIVS.

Can there be any greater Incongrui∣ty, then to execute the rigour of the Law vpon one who by prerogatiue is not tryable by the same? For either it

must be, that those contryued crimes you speake of, were committed before she came into England, or after; if before, cleare it is, that by the Law, and Reason of State her absolute Soueraignty acquiteth her therof: & if after, then must you shew (if you will try her by English Laws) how she came to be depriued of that her Soueraigne free∣dome of birth; the liberty wherof in the cause of a priuate person (and much more of an absolute Queene) cannot be taken from him, without either prescription, consent, or forfaite: but of any such prescription concerning the Queenes Maiesty of Scotland, we see no Record of Con∣sent, no Act, nor any forfait, neither yet any such crime committed, as might depriue her of her Principality, the which remayning in her still, how could she (who vnder no Positiue Law was borne) be brought to be tried and executed in a forraine Country, by the rigour of any such Law?

FAVONIVS.

She was a prisoner, and all prisoners be subiect to their Lawes whose Prisoners they be.

AQVILONIVS.

Then Iohn & Francis Kings of France, the one prisoner in England, and the other in Spaine, might haue byn brought to the barre of Trans∣gressors, and tried, by either of those Country Lawes, but neither of them were so handled; therfore belike the Congruity of proceeding would not permit it.

FA∣VONIVS.

If Congruity, as you said, would not per∣mit it, how happened it then that Charles the first King of Naples, did in like manner put to death by sentence of the Lawes of that Kingdome, his prisoner Conradine, who succeeding the Emperour Fredericke the second in the Dukedome of Swenia, made also pretense to the King∣dome of Naples?

AQVILONIVS.

This also was houlden for such an Incongruous Act (Cùm nec Par in Pa∣rem potestatem habet, nec inferior in Superiorem. Leg. 3. & 4.

de arbitr.) as all the world cried out vpon the same. And particulerly Robert Count of Flanders, Sonne-in-Law to the said Charles, did for the great indignity therof, run his sword through the Protonotary Robert de Bary, who read the sentence of Conradines death. He also who stroke off his head, had presently after by another, his owne head stro∣ken off in the same place. And this Act was the more grie∣uously cōdemned, because the said Charles himselfe hauing byn taken prisoner before by the Saracens, in the Warres of the holy Land, was by them honorably entertained, and Royally released. Whereupon Peter King of Aragon, in an opprobrious letter of his written about this Act, and sent to the said Charles, sayth to him amongst other things: Tu Nerone neronior, & Saracenis crudelior.

FAVO∣NIVS.

It was only iealosy of State, that made the said Charles more cruell therein, then otherwise perhapps he would haue byn, because Conradine not long before was come with a potent armie to take from him his Kingdome of Naples: and the same reason may also seeme to excuse the putting to death of the Queene of Scotland, because she likewise as then made claime to the Crowne of England, and Crownes, I can tell you, may comport no Competi∣tors.

AQVILONIVS.

And yet the forsaid Peter King of Aragon, who by the right of Constance his wife Co∣sen-german to the beheaded Conradine, hauing from the said Charles the first King of Naples the Kingdome of Sici∣lia, and also taken Prisoner the Sonne of that Charles called Charles the second, who still made claime to Sicilia, did not∣withstanding not put him to death, neither in respect of that claime of his, nor yet in reuenge of the death of Con∣radine his Cosen, but with Honorable conditions he was after set at liberty by Iames Sonne to the said Peter, at the instance of Edward the first King of England: and all this

still vnto the greater obloquy of the forsaid Incongrui∣ty of Charles the first: therfore see now what little cause you had to bring in him for an example to approue the like vsed in England against the Queenes Maiesty of Scot∣land, when she was not taken Prisoner by any Law of Ar∣mes, as these other Princes were, but comming into En∣gland of her owne accord, yea and inuited, was retayned there by force: and therfore put the case, that she had conspired against the Queene of England and her State (as she was charged to haue done) she did no more then she might lawfully do, to redeeme her owne vniust vexa∣tion, and to procure her liberty wherof she was most vn∣iustly depriued. For which respects her condemnation was, as I haue said, most incongruous; and so much the more for that she was a Woman, a Widdow, the nearest Ally vnto the Crowne of England, an inuited Guest, an Exile out of her Kingdome, and fled into England for suc∣cour; and finally in such a state, that our State could pre∣tend no lawfull cause of feare: for that being indurance she could neither attempt any thing of her selfe, nor yet practise with any others further then the State of England would permit and wincke at. And therfore by doing as they did, they derogated from the Lawes of Nature, of Charity, of Iurisdiction and Maiesty, of Parentage, of Hospitality, of Protection, and finally from the Law of Nations, and consequently from humaine Intelligence and reason. And thus much concerning the Incongrui∣ty of the fact it selfe, togeather with the disprofit of that sentence giuen; not only in respect of the Vniuersall obli∣quy risen therby, but also of the future harmes which by occasion of that euill example left in memory, may hap∣pen to grow hereafter vnto some Prince of England in the like case.

¶ Heere Subsolanus interrupting their further talke began to say vnto Aquilonius.

SVBSOLANVS.

It may suffice herein that we be better content to admit your example of disprofitable Iustice, then your proofes of pro∣fitable Iniustice, though there be place inough left of ex∣ception to be made vnto the one, as well as to the other, were it not that other matters do yet occure to be also spo∣ken of: and therfore hauing hitherto treated of Worldli∣nes and Profit, in old men, in young men, in Lawiers, in Iudges, and in other Magistrates, some by ouer-weening of themselues, some by excesse of forwardnes, some by ig∣norance some by skill, some by Iniustice, some by Iu∣stice; me thinkes it were now tyme, that we should begin to determine what Profit is, and how many sorts of Pro∣fit there may be said to be.

AQVILONIVS.

Take you then the c re therof vpon your selfe to do it, & for the rest we be already agreed.

SVBSOLANVS.

May we not then do well to say, That Profit is a thing which is either desired for it selfe, or else for some other thing to follow therby?

AQVILONIVS.

Me thinkes not, because this would seeme to haue relation rather vnto the vtility rising from the thing it selfe, then to the gaine to be made therof, by any Industry annexed.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

We may then perhaps do better to say, That Profit is an Act which may be reputed to consist in buying good cheape, and in selling deere.

AQVILONIVS.

This on the other side would seeme to haue relation alto∣geather to the gaine which is to be made of things, and not at all vnto the Vtility rising of the thing it selfe.

SVBSOLANVS

It may be, that then this other will con∣tent you best, to say, That Profit is no more but a certaine kind of skill, how to turne the vse of all things vnto aduan∣tage, vnto more aduantage, and vnto most aduantage.

AQVILONIVS.

It wilbe hard, I can tell you, vnto a word of so diuers relations to make any one description, that may hit iust with them all; and therfore without searching any further, we will admit this last togeather with the former.

SVBSOLANVS.

So that heerby already we may begin (me thinkes) to discouer that of Profit there be two sorts, the one called Vtility, and the other Gaine.

AQVILONIVS.

We may so.

SVBSOLANVS.

But may we not likewise say, that of Vtility there be three sorts; one rysing of thinges, another of habits, and the third of men?

AQVI∣LONIVS.

And this also.

SVBSOLANVS.

The Vtility rising of things either senselesse, vegetat••ue or sensitiue, may we not say it to be double, to wit either of such things as be not desired for themselues, but for some other Vtility that is to rise of them (as when a man take••h a loathsome medicine to recouer his health therby:) or else of such other things as be desired both for themselues, and also for some other Vtility that is to grow of them, as when a man taketh a delectable medicine both because it pleaseth his tast, and is also profitable for his health?

AQVILONIVS.

This also doth content me?

SVB∣SOLANVS.

The Vtility rising of habits, may we not say it also to be double, to wit, either Speculatiue (as the V∣tility that riseth of knowledg (be it Naturall, Diuine, or Mathematicall) or else practicall, as the Vtility to rise of ciuill, domesticall, or politicall skill?

AQVILO∣NIVS

This may also be admitted.

SVBSOLANVS.

And the Vtility rising of men, may we not say it to be ei∣ther fatall (but yet accompanied with voluntary se••king, as the fauour of Princes, marriage, friendship, and the like:) or Naturall, as the Sonne to inherite vnto his Fa∣ther, and the Brother to his Brother, or the Nephew to

his Vncle; or Morall, as when one receaueth vtility of an∣other, so farre as either decency or neighbourhood doth require: or Legall, as when one man receaueth vtility of another, so farre as the Law doth bynd him therunto, and no more, as to keep the peace, to render his due, and the like: or else Spirituall, as when one receaueth a benefit of another, not corporally, but for the benefit of his soule, as the Parishioner by his Curate, who also on the other side may receaue Tythes of his Parishioners for his Seruice in the Church.

AQVILONIVS.

All this may be also admitted.

SVBSOLANVS.

So now to speake of that second sort of Profit which is called Gaine may we not consequently say, that of Gayning there be likewise three sorts; one to be made by Chaunce, another to be made by Lucke; and the third to be made by Industry?

AQVILONIVS.

It doth not mislike me.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

The Gaine to be made by Chaunce, which a man doth vnwittingly meet withall, may we not say it to be triple, to wit, either by the way of fynding (as a man to light vpon a lost purse) or else by the way of encoun∣tring (as a man to meet in an Inne with a merchant who is contented to beare his charges out of Italy into England) or otherwise by the way of escaping (as a man to be deli∣uered out of the hands of theeus by the comming that way of other passingers?)

AQVILONIVS.

All as yet goeth well.

SVBSOLANVS.

The Gaine to be made by Lucke, which a man doth get wittingly, may we not say it to be also triple; namely either by the way of ga∣ming (as to wyn a great summe of money, either at Dice or Cardes) or else by the way of venturing (as to become rich by far iourneys at sea) or otherwise by the way of experimenting (as to multiply wealth, by making of things, either commodious extractions, or commodious

compositions?)

AQVILONIVS.

It may be al∣lowed well inough.

SVBSOLANVS.

And now as touching the gayne to be made of Industrie, may we not say it to be double; to wit, either by way of faction, and force, or else by way of action, and agility?

A∣QVILONIVS

I see no cause to the contrary.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

The gaine to be made be Faction and force, may we not say it to be quadruple, to wit, either vnarti∣ficially (as a man to get his liuing by portage, or by any other meere labour of the body) or else artificially (as by fishing, by fowling, and the like) or otherwise husband∣ly (to wit by tilling, by grafing, or by breding of cattell) or else mechanically or manually (as by being a Carpen∣ter, a Shwoomaker, or a Taylour?)

AQVILONIVS.

Nothing of this may be well denyed.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

And so likewise the gaine to be made by Action and Agility, may we not say it to be double, namely ei∣ther Mercantile or else Mercenary?

AQVILO∣NIVS.

Me thinkes we may say so.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

The Mercantile gayne, may we not say it to be quadruple, namely either by buying or selling, or else by commutation of one thing for another of diuers kindes, or otherwise by vsury, or else by exchange of money for money?

AQVILONIVS.

You say herein very well.

SVBSOLANVS.

The Mercantile gaine to be made by the way of buying and selling, may we not say it to be also quardruple, to wit, either of Landes or posses∣sions, or else by cattell and other victualls, or otherwise of furniture of houshould or building, or else of any o∣ther wares whatsoeuer, either in Great or by Retaile?

AQVILONIVS.

I admit it to be so.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

The Mercantile gaine to be made by the way of cōmutation of one thing for another of diuers kinds,

may we not say, that this sort of getting, is lesse in vse now adayes, since money hath byn inuented, then here∣tofore it hath byn, when Iacob (as we read in Ios••e, cap. 24) emit à filijs Emor Patris, Sichem agrum pro centum nouellis oni∣bus, & fuit in possessionem filiorum Ioseph?

AQVILO∣NIVS.

This as you say, is now out of vse.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

The Mercantile gaine to be made by the way of vsury, may we not say it to be disallowed first by the dis∣cipline of the Philosophers, according as we read in Ari∣stotle (Polit. lib. 1. cap. 6.) next by the Law of Moyses, as we read in Leuit. (cap. 25.) Pecuniam tuam non dabis ad vsu∣ram: and lastly by the Law of our Sauiour Christ, who saith (Luc. cap. 6.) Si mutuum dederitis his à quibus speratis accipere, quae gratia est vobis? nam & peccatores peccatoribus foe∣nerantur vt recipiant aequalia.

AQVILONIVS.

This cannot be denyed.

SVBSOLANVS.

The Mercantile Gayne to be made by the way of exchange, is in some cases allowable (as when the Gaine is no more thē the difference of the value of the money in the place wher∣unto it is exchanged, for the value of the money in the place where the contract is made, adding only therunto all ordinary charges duely occurring:) & in some other cases it is disallowed, as when the G••ine is greater then the said difference of the value of the money, and the ordinary charges occurring; and this also either by occasion of the fraud of the giuer of the bill of exchange, or by the ne∣cessity of the taker.

AQVILONIVS.

There can be nothing more true.

SVBSOLANVS.

Now to come on the other side to the Mercenary kind of gayning, may we not likewise say it to be double, namely either lawfull, or else vnlawfull?

AQVILONIVS.

To∣geather with the rest, let this be also admitted.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

The lawfull Mercenary Gaine is also double,

to wit, either by the way of warre, or else by the way of peace.

AQVILONIVS.

I find nothing to be said against it.

SVBSOLANVS.

The Mercenary lawfull Gaine to be made by the way of warre, may we not say it to be likewise double, namely either by Sea (as by receauing the stipend of a Pilot, of a marriner, of a Gunner, and such like: or else by Land, as by receauing the stipend of a Captayne, of a souldier, of an enginer or such other?

AQVILONIVS.

As you do say, so do I affirme it.

SVBSOLANVS.

The lawfull Mer∣cenary Gaine to be made by the way of peace, may we not say it to be also double; to wit, either seruile (as by receauing the stipend of a domesticall Officer or of an or∣dinary seruant;) or else more fr••e, as by receauing the stipend of a teacher of any Art, the stipend of a Lawier, or the stipend of a Phisitian: the which neuertheles be∣ing better considered, may be said to be improper kindes of gayning, according to the opinion of the Philosopher (in the first of his Politiques, the sixt Chapter) because the proper gaine which commeth of teaching is the Art lear∣ned, & the proper gaine of the Law is the counsell giuen, and of Phisicke, the health receaued; and so likewise in o∣ther things that be more Mechanicall, as the proper gaine to be made of a payre of shooes, is the sauing of the feet by the wearing therof; and the price for which they be sould is the improper gaine, as rising secondarily therof, and not princially.

AQVILONIVS.

This sub∣tile consideration neuer entred into my head before, albeit I confesse that it carrieth with it sufficient shew of rea∣son.

SVBSOLANVS.

And now to come on the o∣ther side, vnto vnlawfull Mercenary wayes of gayning, may we not likewise say them to be double, namely either secretly dishonest, or apparently dishonest?

AQVI∣LONIVS.

I haue looked for this all this while.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

Of which two points, because they may grow to be more copious then the rest before haue byn, it shallbe good that we speake of them a part by themselues.

AQVILONIVS.

You may giue vnto them what scope you will, for I find my selfe well inough disposed to say my part therin, as well as you.

SVBSOLANVS.

To begin then with the secret dishonest Mercenary Gaine, or to say better, Honest in apparence, though not indeed; may we not reduce it vnto these heads, namely either vnto cloked Iniustice, or vnto dissembled Carnality, or vnto smooth flattery, or else vnto cunning Cheating?

A∣QVILONIVS.

Me thinkes you haue put in inough, as being afraid, belike, to leaue out any thing.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

Of that secret dishonest Gaine which is wont to rise by cloked Iniustice, we shall not need I suppose to say heere any more then hath been spoken therof already.

AQVILONIVS

I am also of the same mynd.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

So that to speake in order next of that other secret dishonest Gaine, which is wont to rise by dissembled Carnality, may we not say it to be double, to wit either when some one is but a mediator for another, or else a s••l∣licitor for himselfe?

AQVILONIVS.

The firs•• of these two, may be well inough omitted, as not being wor∣thy to be treated of heere.

SVBSOLANVS.

As touching then the second, may we not say it to be three wayes miserable? One in respect of the filthines therof, another for the pleasure taken therein, and the third for the Gaine it selfe, wherby this Carnall man is tied the ra∣ther therunto: whereas others, such as pursue the like fol∣ly with their owne expences and losse, do therby deliuer themselues the sooner from their noysome and loathsome seruitude; and therfore we see commonly that a Mercena∣ry

Fornicator who followeth that filthy trade, either for supplying of his owne need, or els for desire of superfluity, cannot find in his hart to leaue off, till either his carnality do first leaue him, or he leaue himselfe for altogeather, with euident danger of eternall perdition. In whome is verified the saying of the Prophet Osee, speaking of forni∣cators (cap. 5.) They (saith he) will not haue in their thoughts any will to returne to God againe. Therfore such Carnall men, whether they be mercenary or no (I meane, whe∣thersoeuer they seeke their pleasure, or their gaine) may do well euer to remember not only the prohibition ther∣of, but also the punishment ordained for it in Holy Scri∣ptures, as in Leuit. 19. Si moechatus quis fuerit cum vxore al∣terius, & adulterium perpetrauerit cum vxore proximi sui, morte moriantur & moe••hus & adultera. And againe (Deut. 13.) Non erit meretrix de filiabus Israel, nec scortator de filijs Israël; which is also confirmed by the Law of Grace, with a pre∣cept of greater purity and perfection (Matth. 5.) Audistis quia dictum est antiquis, Non moechaberis; ego autem dico vobis, quia omnis qui viderit mulierem ad concupiscendam eam, iam moechatus est in corde suo. And againe (Heb 13.) Fornicatores enim & adulteros iudicabit Deus. And the rather also because their vice and sinne, as saith S. Ambrose (lib. 1. de Abra∣ham) etiam feris ac barbaris detestabile est.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

For so much hereof as concerneth the mercenary stipend of fornicators or adulterers, this which you haue said, doth indeed pertaine to me, who am a defender of Profit: but for the rest (I meane the delights taken ther∣in) your discourse toucheth Fauonius, more then me, for that he is a speciall fauourer of Pleasure.

¶ Heere Fauonius, though he did not repyne to be thought a friend to Pleasure in generall, yet taking it to be some reproach vnto himselfe, to be interlaced in the

reckoning of so dishonest a cause, intruded himselfe into the pursuite of the other branches of Subsolanus last par∣tion, saying some what angerly to Aquilonius.

FA∣VONIVS.

Whether I be a fauourer of Pleasure or no, I take you to be one of those, who for Mercenary Gaine would make no scruple at all to calumniate one that is ab∣sent, to the smooth flattering of another that is present.

AQVILONIVS.

As touching the calumniation we be not yet come so farre forward, though perhapps we may be ere it be long; but for the flattery whensoeuer it pro∣cureth any gaine, I am no lesse then you haue supposed me to be, and the rather for that in no place where I haue trauelled, I haue euer hitherto found the hart of any man so hard, that was not greatly to be mollified with the hea∣ring of his owne praise. For that as verity causeth hatred, so adulation doth ingender loue, according to the old Pouerbe: Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit.

FAVO∣NIVS.

That is with those who loue themselues too much, wherby they thinke they be not flattered but duely com∣mended, though perhaps in truth they little deserue it: wheras such others as know themselues aright, albeit they may be naturally desirous to heare their owne praise; yet will they be wary not to suffer themselues to be scorned, or mocked with false adulation, like as was Esopes Crow, which by the flattery of the Fox, let fall the meate she held in her mout••.

AQVILONIVS.

Herein consisteth the praise of this Art, to be able to worke such miracles.

FAVONIVS.

Then you accompt flattery I perceaue to be an Art.

AQVILONIVS.

Not only an Art, but an Art of Arts, which goeth beyond all other Artes.

FAVONIVS.

Let me aske you then this question, Whe∣ther he who flatters, doth vse to speake as he thinketh?

AQVILONIVS.

Such a one as doth so, may be rather

a true praiser, then a flatterer.

FAVONIVS.

So that a flatterer speaketh one thing and thinketh another.

AQVILONIVS.

If he should do otherwise, it were then no Art at all, but a silly plaine kind of dealing.

FA∣VONIVS.

Then he who will play the Flatterer cūning∣ly; must first learne to be a false dissembler.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

If you haue no worse to say against him then that, he will do well inough.

FAVONIVS.

So as you take it, that to dissemble is a very tolerable thing.

AQVILONIVS.

I make no question of it.

FA∣VONIVS.

Then I pray yo•• tell me, Whether he who vttereth with his tongue that which his inward dissimu∣lation hath contriued, may not be called a Lyar?

A∣QVILONIVS.

I am sorry that word hath escaped your mouth, because albeit he may be so called, yet doth he lye in a most pleasing manner, and nothing at all ma∣liciously.

FAVONIVS.

But do you meane that the same pleasing Lye, should be made for the benefit of the party flattered, or els of the good of the Fatterer him∣selfe?

AQVILONIVS.

You might thinke the Flatterer a foole to do it, if it were not principally for his owne benefit.

FAVONIVS.

Then his owne selfe-loue is the principall cause of his flattery, therby to make his aduantage of the party flattered.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

For whose loue els may he haue more cause to do it?

FAVONIVS.

In so much, as by his flattering he not only deceaueth treacherously the party flattered, but seeketh to infect him also with the same vice of selfe-loue, wherwith he himselfe is already infected: and this to the end to be able so to lead him vp and downe by the Nose, as we see Bearewardes, with a ring to lead their Beares; and therfore we may well say, that as flattery beginneth with dissimulation and lying, so also it endeth

with treachery and deceyte.

AQVILONIVS.

I will not deny it, neyther do I mislike it, if it be for his profit and gaine.

FAVONIVS.

Belike then (to come now vnto the last part of Subsolanus his former diui∣sion) you will not stick to admit also this Flatterer of ours, to play the cūning Cheater for his greater gaine.

A∣QVILONIVS.

Such kind of cūning cheating it may be, as I will not stick to admit it in him indeed.

FAVO∣NIVS.

As for example, What say you vnto one, who hauing a Gould Chaine, caused a counterfaite one to be made very like it, and offered the better chaine to be sould to a Goldsmith, vpon whome (after he had touched, and waighed it, yea and bargained also for it) he dexte∣rously shifted the coūterfaite Chaine insteed of the other?

AQVILONIVS.

I do not directly allow of this, because he was so wealthy as to haue a gould chayne to sell, and therfore was not yet brought vnto such necessity, as to be permitted the acting of such a fraud.

FAVO∣NIVS.

Let me then propound vnto you this other case, of one who pretended in the time of Lent to haue lost a Budget with a hundred Crownes of money in it, and of another his companion, who by accord betwixt them, was to faygne to haue found it, so he who lost it hauing com∣mended the matter to be inquired of in the Pulpit by the publick Preacher of the Towne, the other discouered to him in secret the finding therof, but yet, with such a pro∣testation of his owne pouerty, as the Preacher for the pit∣ty he tooke of so conscionable a man, got him by colle∣ction, that Lent, little lesse then an hundred Crownes, the which summe he, and his Companion deuyded betwixt them?

AQVILONIVS.

Of the inuention it selfe I allow well inough, but not of the base kind of begging.

FAVONIVS.

What say you then by one, who binding

himself by obligatiō to repay a borrowed summe of mo∣ney, cast vpon the same obligation such a dust, as eat out all the letters, & so shifted of the payment by that kind of fraud?

AQVILONIVS.

This inuention I like not at al, because another may vse it against me that hath but once heard of it, as well as I against him.

FAVONIVS.

Well then, I will propound vnto you yet this other, of one who taking with him his Neighbour, did hide vnder the ground an hundred Crownes, which money his nei∣ghbour hauing need of, conuayed secretly from thence, leauing in the place a bagg of stones?

AQVILO∣NIVS.

It may be he had an intention to vse the money a whyle, and to returne it to the same place againe.

FA∣VONIVS.

He retorned it indeed, though he had no such intention when he tooke it: for the owner therof ha∣uing missed it, and suspecting that his neighbour had taken it, told him that the day following he would hide another hundred Crownes in the same place; wherupon his neighbour thinking to get the same also, carried backe the first hundred Crownes, and therby lost the same.

AQVILONIVS.

The more I reflect on the matter, the more I disallow it, because he betrayed the confidence which was reposed in him, without any constraint of necessity.

FAVONIVS.

What say you then to two companions, who carryed a hundred Crownes to a rich old Vsurer to keep, taking an obligation of him, that he should not deliuer it vnto either of them, vnlesse they came both togeather for it: after which it passed not long but that one of them, by the consent of his fellow put on a sute of mourning apparrell, and pretending to the Vsurer that his companion was dead, got the hun∣dred Crownes out of his handes: and shortly after, the other appearing, he obtayned sentence against the Vsurer

by vertue of his said obligation, for another hundred Crownes.

AQVILONIVS.

To haue serued an old Vsurer such a trick, it misliketh me nothing at all.

FAVONIVS.

But yet the Vsurer bethinking him better of the matter, caused the sentence to be reuoked againe by alledging to the Iudge the words of his obligation, that he was not bound to repay the money, vnlesse both of them togeather came for it, wherwith the sute ended, for such reason as you may coniecture.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

I am sory it tooke no better effect, for that the shift (if it had byn in a time of necessity) was both good and clenly.

FAVONIVS.

But what do you say the while vnto the other sort of cunning Cheatinges, which be commonly vsed at all kinds of gaming: I meane either in the act it selfe, or the circumstances, as by Char∣mes, Falsifications, Butty-playing, & the like?

AQVI∣LONIVS.

As though vnto all kind of gaming there hath not alwayes byn annexed a certayne aduantagious liberty of playing, which you make so much the worse, by com∣prizing it vnder the title of cunning Cheating: for though true it be, that it hath in it some cunning, yet it is too Courtly a practise, to be called Cheating.

¶ Heere Subsolanus being desirous to returne againe vnto his vnfinished distribution, began to say vnto Aqui∣lonius.

SVBSOLANVS.

Hauing treated hitherto sufficiently of that kind of vnlawfull Mercenary Gaine, which is but secretly dishonest; there resteth yet to speake of that other part which is dishonest more apparantly, the which we may reduce vnto these eight heades following; to wit, vnto publike proceedings, which be either fraudu∣lent, or violent, or disloyall, or reproachfull, or cruell, or inhumane, or scurrilous, or iniust.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

A faire rablement of memorable particularities,

and well picked out.

SVBSOLANVS.

That publike dishonest Mercenary gaine, which is wont to rise of pu∣blike fraud, may we not say it to be either by deceipt of words, and that either with oathes, or without oathes, or els by fraudulent deceipt in actions, as for example by the way of buying or selling?

AQVILONIVS.

Such proceedings as these be seene indeed sometimes to occur.

SVBSOLANVS.

That other dishonest Mercenary gaine which is to be gotten by any publike violence, may we not say it to be either, when it is done vnder the colour of sport, or els when it is done in plaine earnest, as to rob on the high way, to breake into houses, and the like?

AQVILONIVS.

It must be a great & vrgent necessity, that should driue men vnto these extremityes.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

The third dishonest Mercenary gaine which is wont to rise of publike disloyalty, may we not say it to be either by way of treachery, or els of treason?

A∣QVILONIVS.

Such things no doubt, be aduentured vpon sometimes for desire of Profit.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

The fourth dishonest Mercenary gaine which is to be gotten with the blot of publike reproach, may we not say it to be either with shame of body, wherof there want not examples, or els with shame of mynd; as to beare false witnes, and the like?

AQVILONIVS.

All is ac∣cording as it is taken.

SVBSOLANVS.

The fifth dishonest Mercenary gaine which is wont to rise of some publike cruelty, may we not say it to be either by the way of slashing (wherof the markes are rife inough ech∣where to be seen) or els by the way of mayming men in their lymmes?

AQVILONIVS.

You will scarce leaue place anon for any disorder at all to be any where committed.

SVBSOLANVS.

The sixt dishonest Mercenary gaine which is to be gotten by any publick. In∣humanity,

may we not say it to be either by the way of in∣faming men, or else by doing them some other discourtesy?

AQVILONIVS.

A very narrow searcher into matters you shew your selfe to be.

SVBSOLANVS.

The seauenth dishonest Mercenary gaine, which is wont to rise of publick Scurrility, may we not say it to be either by the way of vncleane speaking, or els by the way of more im∣pudent iesting?

AQVILONIVS.

Now me thinks you stoop very low, to take exception to such ordinary imperfections.

SVBSOLANVS.

And lastly the eight dishonest Mercenary gaine, which is to be gotten by publike Iniustice, may we not say it to be, either publike betwixt party and party, or els publike by the way of of∣fice?

AQVILONIVS.

By hemning in things thus togeather after this manner, you may say what you will.

SVBSOLANVS.

Now then it seemeth that it is already high time to determine with all the old Moralists, that no∣thing can be gainefull which is not iust and honest, wher∣of the reason shall euidently appeare hereafter, especially in the end of this dayes Conference, when I shall consider of the Profit, or Disprofit that the Soule reapeth by frau∣dulent gaine; and therfore in the meane time, relying v∣pon the knowne, and excellent Axiome of Cicero in his Of∣fices (to wit, Nihil vtile quod non sit honestum) I affirme, that no Gaine which is fraudulent, can be truly profitable, as to sell Land which is litigious to one that knoweth it not, which is an act that repugneth with Iustice, according as doth all other fraudulent buying & selling, for the which Claudius was taxed amongst the Romans, about a house which he sould to Calphurnius.

AQVILONIVS.

If we measure Iustice still so strictly, we shall make a faire hand ere long.

SVBSOLANVS.

May we not also say, that no Gaine which is gotten with furious violence

can be truely profitable: As to extort any thing by force, vnder the colour of sport or earnest, according as those good fellowes be wont to do, who purchase their reue∣newes by the high wayes; for which kind of faultes were infamous amongst the Romans, both Bargulus of Illyria, and Viriatus of Portugall?

AQVILONIVS.

You need not to haue sought so far for examples, since our owne Country doth yield vs inough of them.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

May we not likewise say, that no kind of Gaine which groweth of disloyalty, can be truly profi∣table: As to betray any other for his owne preferment; as Marius the Roman betryed Metellus to get the Consul∣ship from him?

AQVILONIVS.

It may be, that at that time, there were as many in Rome, that did com∣mend him, as discommend him for it.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

May we not further say, that no Gaine which is gotten with reproach or shame can be truly profitable: As to falsify Deedes, and such like, nor yet to be consen∣ting vnto any such acts; for the which were taxed the two great Romans M. Crassus, and Q. Horiensius to haue fauou∣red for their owne gaine, the falsified Testament of L. Mi∣nutius brought them out of Greece?

AQVILO∣NIVS.

To beare any blame with such kind of personages as these, would rather seeme to be a reputation then a re∣proach.

SVBSOLANVS.

May we not say with∣all, that no Gaine which is polluted with cruelty can be truly profitable: as to be consenting to the shedding of bloud, or to the mayming of any man; as the Athenians were taxed for cutting off the thumbes of the Ageneti, lest they should be offensiue to their Citty, by rowing in their owne Gallyes?

AQVILONIVS

As I re∣member, some one of the Kings of France, had designed to do the like vnto all such English prisoners as he should

happen to take in the warres, to hynder therby their Ar∣chery.

SVBSOLANVS.

May we not say more∣ouer, that no Gaine which is gotten with Inhumanity can be truly profitable; as to defame any man by word or writing, or to vse any other kind of discourtesy, as in Rome first Petronius, and after him Rapius were generally reproued for their inhumane prohibiting of strangers from their Cittyes, except such as would compound with them for their Licences?

AQVILONIVS.

To make good this, I could the sooner condescend, for somewhat I haue suffered my selfe in that kind.

SVBSOLANVS.

May we not say as yet, that no Gaine which is gotten by scurrility can be truly profitable, or els by vndecent Ie∣sting; for which vices was infamous amongst the Grecians Aristippus, and amongst the Romans, Sarmentus, as also Te∣xius?

AQVILONIVS.

Of all the rest these kind of Companions do least content me.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

May we not say in like manner, that no Gaine which is gotten with publike Iniustice, can be truly profi∣table, whether so it be betwixt party and party, or els by the way of office; in which kind be condemned the A∣thenians for their vniust banishing their iustest sort of Cit∣tizens?

AQVILONIVS.

As touching the Iniu∣stice of Officers & Magistrates there hath inough byn said already, and for that other Iniustice betwixt party & party, we haue yet time inough to speake therof.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

Then you will make a difference, I perceaue, betwixt the Iniustice of Magistrates, and the Iniustice of priuate men; as if priuate men were priuiledged herein more then Magistrates?

AQVILONIVS.

You say very well, for so indeed they seeme to be, by reason of the common vse and custome amongst men, which maketh priuate mens Iniustice, fraudes, and deceipts in priuate

matters to be either generally approued, or at least lesse condemned, then the Iniustice of publike Magistrates in publike affaires; and therfore according to the common practise of the world, to what end doth any man set vp a trade, but to exercise Iniustice? or buy any pelting office, but to gaine his liuing by Iniustice? or fetch commodi∣tyes from forraine Countryes, but with subtile accompts to deceiue others by Iniustice; since seldome times it is seene, that any of these do rise from little vnto much, without hauing first cōmitted many & many Iniustices?

SVBSOLANVS.

Wherupon it would follow accor∣ding to your opinion, that to learne also to do Iniustice in this sort, were a profitable thing.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

A profitable thing, you may be sure.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

But may we likewise say it is honest?

A∣QVILONIVS.

Vnto him at leastwise (as hath been said) that can do it couertly, by knowing very well with what counterfait holines towards God, and what faigned sincerity towards the world, to get not only wealth by doing such Iniustice, but also the fame and reputation to be the honestest man in his Parish.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

Then so much the more as these kind of men be in∣iust, so much the more they come to be exalted.

A∣QVILONIVS.

If it were not so, how could so many poore beginners rise daily, as we see, to be Magistrates in the Cittyes where they dwell?

SVBSOLANVS.

Then so much also the more, may euery one of these be said to be iust and honest, as he is vnindifferent and par∣tiall.

AQVILONIVS.

Not only to be honest and iust, but also to be graue and constant in his proceedings; and all this by the credit of his Wealth, which according to the opinion of the Philosopher, Is a signe of eternall Glo∣ry, as the only thing at this day, that doth gouerne the

whole world, hauing force to throw vnto the ground, not only the power of the Lawes, but the strength of Armes, and the skill of Art, and Wit of man in all things.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

So that vnto one who hath little or nothing to begin withall, his necessity, you thinke, may permit him to deceiue any man by Iniustice?

AQVILONIVS.

You say well; the Profit that may rise of this Iniustice, ought not to be so culpable in him, as the like vniust pro∣fit, that may rise vnto a rich Magistrate.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

Then somewhat, belike, you haue yet more at large to say, touching Profit in this lower degree, not in Magistrates as before, but in such others, as being but poorely borne, haue no way els to liue, but by their owne exercise only?

AQVILONIVS.

Vpon what other pillar els may we better lay the foundation of such a poore mans Profit?

SVBSOLANVS.

Will you therfore that we accompt all sort of Mercenary gaine, which is the reward of Exercise, to be good and lawfull?

AQVI∣LONIVS.

At leastwise still vnto a poore and needy man, as I haue said before.

SVBSOLANVS.

But how far do you accompt this word Exercise to be extended? and vnto what?

AQVILONIVS.

Vnto all sorts of industryes, as well of the mynd, as the body.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

And all this you will haue vs hold to be law∣full vnto the supply of Pouerty?

AQVILONIVS.

I hitherto see no cause to the contrary, and the rather also, for that according to Hesiodus, not Exercise, but Idlenes is said to be Villany.

SVBSOLANVS.

So that all gainefull Exercises you will haue to be lawfull still to a poore man, whether they be of the mynd or body?

A∣QVILONIVS.

I haue alleadged you my authority, con∣fimed also, as some say, by Socrates, though Xenophon perhaps deny it.

SVBSOLANVS.

As for example,

it may be lawful for him then to make his gaine by Craft, because it is an Exercise of the mynd, and also by Fraud because it is an Exercise of the body.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

You haue not hard me to say so as yet.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

Then some exercises belike may be gaine∣full, which are not lawfull.

AQVILONIVS.

The censure of the Law is one thing, and the vulgar opi∣nion of men another, who do many times admit by cu∣stome some things to be laudable, which be not strictly lawfull.

SVBSOLANVS.

You meane, perhaps, that to vse false weights may by the common custome therof be laudable, though not lawfull.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

You choose out still the hardest examples that may be.

SVBSOLANVS.

So that some ex∣ercises also may be gainefull, which be neither lawfull nor laudable.

AQVILONIVS.

It is inough for my purpose, if vnto the help of a poore man, they be but only tolerable.

SVBSOLANVS.

You thinke it then belike a tolerable kind of counterfait gaine, to falsify one thing for another?

AQVILONIVS.

If so it may be done in such a place, at such a time, and by such a poore person, as cannot well otherwise liue, what letteth, I pray you, that it may not be accompted tolerable?

SVBSOLANVS.

So as besides the pouerty of the per∣son, there must also concur the conuenience of time and place, to make an euill gaine tolerable?

AQVILO∣NIVS.

I put in inough to auoid the rather your excep∣tions against it.

SVBSOLANVS.

Then some kind of gaines may be tolerable in one place, and time, that may not be tolerable in another?

AQVILONIVS.

I will not greatly stand with you herein.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

And where the exercise is not tolerable, there the gaine which riseth therof is not in any wise to be per∣mitted.

AQVILONIVS.

I see as yet no great dif∣ficulty, why not to allow it.

SVBSOLANVS.

So that one, and the same gaine may, by the diuersity of the time and place, be both tolerable, and not tolerable.

AQVILONIVS.

Why not I pray you, as well as one and the same gaine, yea at one and the same time, be both profitable, and vnprofitable?

SVBSOLANVS.

You will make me, I hope, to vnderstand your mynd a little better herein.

AQVILONIVS.

As for ex∣ample, to haue gained in the time of war a fierce & bold horse, is it not profitable? and yet if his fiercenes & bold∣nes be such as his Maister cānot vse him, then that which is profitable, is also vnprofitable to him.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

So as by this accompt it would seeme, that euery thing which is contrary to profit, is vnprofitable.

AQVILONIVS.

It soundeth so of it selfe apparently inough, if I had not confessed it already.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

Health, Liberty, and Wealth, be they not pro∣fitable things?

AQVILONIVS.

Profitable I graunt them to be.

SVBSOLANVS.

Then all that which is contrary to any of these is vnprofitable.

AQVILONIVS.

How can it otherwise be, by the allea∣ged rule of contraryes?

SVBSOLANVS.

As for example, the hauing of a rich wife is vnprofitable, be∣cause it may be an impediment to health; the study of let∣ters is vnprofitable, because it may be a hinderance to liberty: and the eating of meate is vnprofitable, because it is a consuming of wealth.

AQVILONIVS.

You be a merry companion, I see, to deale with all, that haue reduced this your disputation of Profit, vnto so base and vile a conceit in the end, as if beggary were a thing to be iested at.

¶ Heere Fauonius seing Subsolanus entred into a cogi∣tation

with himselfe, what answere to make hereunto, began before him, to say vnto Aquilonius.

FAVO∣NIVS.

I am nothing at all of your opinion, that Need may serue to excuse any bad kind of getting.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

Nor am I any thing at all of your opinion, for though bad getting, when so it is knowne to the world, may be somewhat reproachfull, yet pouerty I take to be a greater reproach, because it cannot so well be hid.

FA∣VONIVS.

To hide honest pouerty there is no need, for that it bringeth with it no shame at all, and consequently no reproach, as you suppose it to do; for though at the first, it may somewhat greiue the mynd with care and sollici∣tude, yet after it is once receiued without resistance, and made familiar, it is facile to beare, and confortable by keeping men sober, modest, continent, and also secure not only from infirmityes, but likewise from the malice of others. For wheras the rich man, if so he spend not all, is commonly said to be couetous; the poore man we see, though his cupidity be neuer so great, is alwayes held to be of a free condition full of tranquillity, and repose.

A∣QVILONIVS.

What repose can there be in pouerty, when neither the mynd, nor the body receiueth thereby any contentment, but are still tormented both the one and the other with the defects which pouerty draweth after it?

FAVONIVS.

If Pouerty bring with it any defects, they be of lesse moment by much, then those that do accom∣pany wealth, the which, by the Philosopher, be said in his Ethicks, to be these: first Pride, in making men vainely to thinke, that togeather with their riches they haue all other benefits, as well of the mynd, as of the body, and that men may any way possesse any thing. Secondly Pro∣digality, causing men therby to become superfluous, not only for satisfying their sumptuous desires, but also to

make shew and ostentation of their prosperous fortune. Lastly, it is accompained with Arrogancy, making men still to thinke, that other do admire, and also affect that which they do possesse; whereby supposing with their wealth to make good all their faults, they become to be so iniurious to their Neighbours, that the Philosopher con∣cludeth them in the end, to be in little better case then for∣tunate Madmen.

AQVILONIVS.

As mad as you make them to be, yet are they able well inough to de∣fend, and support themselues, which the poorer sort are no way able to do, by reason that their pouerty doth so much oppresse them.

FAVONIVS.

It is rather the in∣iurious cruelty of the rich, that doth oppresse the poore more then their owne pouerty, the which cannot be bur∣densome as you suppose, chiefly vnto one who is conten∣ted to liue according to the rules of Nature, but only when it is accompanied rather with superfluous thoughts, then with due feare of necessary wants.

AQVILONIVS.

You speake so generally against the cruelty of rich men, without any distinction made of their degrees and voca∣tions, as if he who getteth his riches well, and he who get∣teth it euilly, were both of one Predicament.

FAVO∣NIVS.

The rich man spoken of in the Scripture (Luc. cap. 6.) you do not find, that he was condemned, because he got his goods euilly, since the Euangelist doth not say, that either he was an Vsurer, or that he possessed his wealth with an euill conscience, but that he vsed it not well, nor with that charity as he ought to haue done.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

So that riches you meane cannot be good vn∣to any, but vnto good men only.

FAVONIVS.

Nor alwayes vnto good men neither, because we see by experience, that vnto some good men riches do them hurt, by inciting them to Vice, and drawing them from

Vertue, though the riches themselues be neither vertuous, nor vicious; and therfore not euill things only, but things which be indifferent, and which in apparence be good, may also do harme, and sometimes more harme then the things themselues which be apparantly euill. And hereof it commeth, that a man may more easily let other mens goods alone, then vse his owne well, because on the one he knoweth that he cannot intrude without offence, but with the other he thinketh he may be more bold, to do with it what he will, without rendring any accompt for the same. And therfore it is no safety for a man to loue his owne riches too well, though they be ne∣uer so iustly gotten, least thereby he be induced, not only to be couetous of that he hath, but to loue those other also which may be gotten with fraude, because his too much feruent loue and desire therof may blind his iudgment so much therin, as to make him thinke, at least, that to be lawfull which is not.

AQVILONIVS.

Then if riches may be hurtfull vnto good men, as well as vnto euill men, vnto what end hath Nature prouided them?

FAVONIVS.

She hath prouided them to this end, for men to take therof so much only as is sufficient to prouide for their states, and professions without superfluity: for as the Moone doth neuer eclipse, but when she is at the Full: so the mynd is neuer so much obscured, as it is with the superfluity of riches. And againe, as the Moone is then furthest off from the Sunne which giueth it light when it is at the Full; so a man when he is fullest of riches, is furthest off from that equity and iustice, which ought to giue him light in all his proceedings: and therefore he might do well herein to imitate that wary Fly, which put∣teth not her feet into the great masse of Hony, but only taketh with her tongue, so much therof as serueth her

turne and no more, least by doing otherwise she might re∣mayne taken and drowned therin.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

So that by this accompt the more that rich men haue, so much the lesse liberty they possesse.

FAVO∣NIVS.

Therof you may be sure, since gold and siluer was neuer made to loade men withall, as captiues thereunto, but to loade mules and horses therwith, which be captiues by Nature, and neuertheles do not take vpon them more then their forces be able to beare; wheras the couetous rich man neuer thinketh he hath inough on his back, till he fall to the ground with it, nor then neither vntill he hath taken vpon him so much, as he is ouerwhelmed & quelled downe vnder it. And is not this, thinke you, a thraldome and vt∣ter losse of Liberty?

AQVILONIVS.

You say well at leastwise, for so much credit as there needeth to be giuen to such fabulous similitudes; but the poorer sort the while being oppressed with their pouerty indeed, do loose therby their liberty for alltogeather, not fabulously, as you resemble the rich to do, but visibly and palpably, to the sight and feeling of all men.

FAVONIVS.

And yet for al this many poore men we haue hard of, not only amongst Christians, but amongst the Pagan Philosophers themselues, who notwithstanding their pouerty haue vo∣luntarily and freely neglected and contemned riches. As for example, Anacharses refused the treasure sent him by Gresus: also Anacreontes refused the treasure sent him by Policrates; and Albionus refused the treasure sent him by Antigonus, besides many more of that profession, too long to be here recited.

AQVILONIVS.

I hold them all to haue byn vnwise, or to say better, for starke fooles: because, if so they had no need of it they might haue giuen it to others, who were in necessity, but by doing of nei∣ther, they did not therby make known themselues so much

for contemners of riches, as for fishers after vayne glory: the which passion being of the two the more deare vnto them, therfore to buy them fame, they forsooke to take money; like as those good drinkers do, who sell their wheate to buy them mault, not because they hate bread, but because of the two, they loue their drinke better.

FAVONIVS.

Perhaps in pouerty there be yet some grea∣ter contentments then you be aware of, els what should haue caused the great Conquerour of the world to say, that if he were not Alexander, he would wish to be Dioge∣nes, who was of all other the poorest Philosopher of his time, or that was euer after him.

AQVILONIVS.

You haue lighted vpon a notable couple of fishers after glory, and very well matched them togeather, the one by the way of too much riches, and the other by the way of too little sustenance, yea lesse then would serue his need, or the decency of his profession.

FAVONIVS.

And yet not only Alexander himselfe, but many others also did hold him to be the happiest man of that age.

A∣QVILONIVS.

Excesse of passion is the cause of many extrauagancies; and therfore Diogenes yielded lesse to the care of his need, then vnto the care of his said excessiue vayne glorious passion.

FAVONIVS.

And I am of another opinion, to wit, that Passion is more flexible then Need, the which is reputed not to be subiect vnto any Law at all; wheras the other we see is restrayned many wayes, as by penaltyes, by subordination, and sometimes also by gratuity, all which in their kinds do not a little bridle mens extrauagant passions.

AQVI∣LONIVS.

I do not seeke to enter so deepely into the search of such Quiddityes, but this I know by experi∣ence now adayes, that not the learnedst Philosophers but the richest Worldlings be accompted, not only for the

happiest creatures, but also for the wisest men.

¶ Heere Subsolanus, as one that could forbeare no longer to heare Aquilonius so far out of the way, preuen∣ting Fauonius his answere, began thus to say vnto him.

SVBSOLANVS.

Where, I pray you, was that couetous Wisdome, you speake of, at the very first beginning of things, when there was not yet in the world any kind of money, or riches to be found at all, but that ech where one commodity was changed for another? Belike the man of those dayes, if wisedome, as you say, had chiefly consi∣sted in riches, were all fooles, and yet some Wise men haue said, That happy, and most happy were they, who liued in that so simple and honest an age, while no vanityes were as yet discouered amongst men, nor any disordinate appetites obscured the light of the vnderstanding, with the temptations of the fraile and deceiuable senses, and while there were as yet no weapons, nor warres, nor locks, nor doores, no robbing, nor stealing, nor any vio∣lent temptations vnto any kind of wickednes. For though women and men did conuerse togeather no lesse then they do now, yet the women were modest and shamefast, and the men myld, and both of them continent, being accu∣stomed to mortify and suppresse the disobedience of the flesh, partly with abstinence, and partly with assiduous labour, so as they felt no great motiues vnto sinne: I meane that innocent and pacificall age, when no Mettall was as yet digged out of the earth, nor no oxe, nor horse em∣ploied to till the ground, but that euery one liued of that which the earth it selfe of it owne accord brought forth, without the help of any industry or art; for so God of his bounty had ordayned, that all those things, wherof man had need, as flesh, fruites, and the like, should be prouided for him, & produced for his vse aboue the gound, hyding

and burying all those other things which were superflu∣ous (as gold, siluer, and the rest) within the bowells of the earth it selfe, to the end he should neither loue them nor desire them, nor be tempted to vse them, in respect of the great harme he might receiue by them. Besides that, no timbred Oake, nor Firre, nor Pyne had then byn fra∣med into ships, to furrow the windy seas, either for curi∣osity to passe from one Country to another, or els to fetch home the variety of forrayne vnknowne delicacyes; the which art of nauigating, whosoeuer first found out (were it either the Sorians, or the Phenicians, or els Iason of Ar∣gos and his Confederates) certaine it is, that no other occasion moued them therunto, but meere auarice only, wherof hath ensued both rapines, violences, deaths, rui∣nes and great dispersions of people. For if Nauigation had neuer been found out, the King of Colchos had neuer byn depriued of his golden Fleece, togeather with the death of his Sonne, & the rapine of his daughter; nor the Cit∣ty of Troy had neuer by the Greeks byn destroyed, togea∣ther with Priamus the King therof, and all his posterity; nor Greece it selfe had neuer byn so desolated, as it was, by the great nauy of Xerxes King of Asia. Moreouer in that age no paper, nor pen was yet in vse, wherewith to write any Statutes, or Decrees, vntill the time that Minos gaue Lawes to the Candians, Lucurgus to the Lacedemoni∣ans, Solon to the Athenians, Trismegistus to the Thebans, Phido to the Corinthians, Caronda to the Carthaginians, Ro∣mulus and Numa Pompilius to the Romans: for before those times men liued vnder those happy, and pleasant consti∣tutions, which Nature her selfe had planted in their breasts, full of sincerity, full of meekenes, and full of all other pacificall consolation, as well mentall, as corporal. Therfore now to answere to your former allegation,

that rich men are the wisest men, should these other men who were so happy for all things els, be therfore said to be fooles, because they chiefly wanted the vse of money, and therby the desire to possesse the same too greedily, as you would haue that wise man of yours to do?

AQVI∣LONIVS.

Whatsoeuer in those dayes they of whom you speake either might, or might not haue byn said to be, I wil not much stand vpon; but this I will still affirme, that if now in this age of ours such poore playne dealing men, were liuing, neither would their sincerity, nor their meek∣nes, nor their pacificall spirits be able to get them so much reputation of wit, as their rude pouerty would condemne them for fooles; whiles suffering thereby a number of worldly greiuances, they could neither be gratefull to themselues, nor yet acceptable vnto others. For if such a poore man should now, but open his mouth to speake, euery body straight would be ready to laugh at him, and to aske, Who is this? according to that in Eccles. 13.

SVBSOLANVS.

Those worldly grieuances which po∣uerty you say bringeth with it, do rather proceed of cupi∣dity then of any necessary need, for that the body may be sustayned with a little, and therfore I see no reason why men with so much study and care should seeke to feed, and nourish the same, or to adorne, and couer it so sumptuous∣ly as they do, spending therein their riches superfluously, and with very little praise at all, if not rather with rebuke and shame, since they may otherwise so easily find, not only wherewith to feed, but also wherewith to vest, with∣out seeking as they do for the spices, and silkes of forrayne Countryes; for that chiefly vnto these ends, we see, is the said cupidity of their riches conuerted, if not vnto auarice, the which of the two is the worst: for though the same, after a sort, may be coloured with the care to be had of po∣sterity,

yet in the meane season, none are so miserable as they who desire ouermuch; since therby they are ready to suffer a thousand indignityes, & a thousand disgraces, if not also perills for the satisfying of their vnsatiable de∣sires, and many times also vnto their owne ruyne, as hap∣pened vnto Gresus the King of Lydia, and vnto Crassus the Roman, the one ouercome by Cyrus for his wealth alrea∣dy gotten, and the other put to death by the Parthians in seeking to get more then he had: so as the Rich man some∣times mounteth, sometimes sincketh, sometimes com∣maundeth, sometimes serueth, sometimes is splendidous, sometimes obscure, sometimes threatneth, sometimes intreateth, and all this for the respect of things which be vile; and therfore how much more stable and secure art thou on the other side (ô gentle Pouerty!) thou, I say, who when thou obseruest the Lawes of Nature, doest subdue all paynfull industry, doest ouercome all mortall honour and doest contemne the vayne discourses of men, not caring for the heat of the summer, nor much estee∣ming the cold of the winter, but contented to repaire the one with the shaddow of the leaued trees, and to with∣stand the other with the help of the cheap vntawed skins of beasts, wherby in that homely weed thou shunnest the temptations of all idle loue, of all vaine lasciuiousnes, & of all shamefull lust, as also all the enuy of men, all the daunger of theeues, and all the disturbance of broken sleeps: wherfore to thee be the eternall praise of all in∣geniosity, of all inuentions, and of all arts, as vnto the egregious Mother of all study, of all speculation, and of all operation: whose vertues (to conclude) be many, whose refuges more and whose benefits be infinite.

A∣QVILONIVS.

These be Sophisticall fictions, rather then reasons, all of them found out by the art and malig∣nity

of such, as vnder a certaine kind of Philosophicall au∣thority, do attend to inuent those abstracted arguments; therby to giue credit and reputation to the beggarly and bare state of their owne base fortune, because they are not able to attayne vnto more; and therfore annexing Pride vnto Beggary, do wax bold therby, to make an exteriour shew of competency with the rich, while interiourly yet they be glad, when they can, but to finger only some frag∣ments of their felicity and aboundance, vnder pretence sometimes to buy them bookes, and other like necessaryes, though they bestow it after, more lasciuiously then they would willingly be knowne to do; and therefore there is no heed to be taken at all vnto their publike words, and sayings, but rather to their hidden thoughts, and secret workings, contrary to that which they preach and teach vnto others openly, making them belieue in shew that their owne state is better, then the state of the rich, though they thinke it to be otherwise, & would be glad to change with them. Which kind of proceeding Pliny writing to his friend Fabatus, doth say, That there is nothing more peril∣lous then to thinke, that the state of one man is better then another, because hereby they who find themselues to be in the worst, neuer leaue to contend, if not also to conspire, ag••inst the fame of those others whom they suppose to be in better state then they. And hence it commeth, that the poore do inueigh so much against the rich, not for that they would not be rich themselues, but as I haue said be∣fore, because they are not able to reach to any more, then their beggarly fortune hath allotted them.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

What more in this world should either they, or any other need to seeke for, then a quiet and pacificall mynd, well contented with whatsoeuer God sendeth, be it either Pouerty, or what other thing els; since with this

only consolation, a man is happy inough, though he be otherwise neuer so poore; and without this, he is no∣thing happy, though his riches be neuer so great: So that euery state is good, and euery state is euill, not so much in respect of it selfe, as in respect of the circumstances it bringeth with it. For who will deny, that the state of a rich man may not be good, if so it be vsed with tempe∣rance; or that the state of a poore man may not be euill, if so it be not supported with patience, since not the suf∣ferance of any aduersity doth make a man happy and bles∣sed, but the pacificall mynd wherewith he tolerateth the same; and therfore euery one ought to conforme himselfe not vnto that state which he may thinke of in his mynd (because worldly men do most of all inclyne vnto that which their couetousnes doth make them desire) but vn∣to that state and degree, whether so it be rich or poore, which God for the more safety of his soule hath put him into. For so we see all other things els conserue the states which God first gaue them, without repining thereat at all; as the Heauens, the Starres, the Aire, the Fire, the Water, the Earth, and all sorts of beasts, of fishes, and of plants, and all other earthly creatures, only man excep∣ted, who by his fall into sinne, is neuer contented with his state, but is alwayes desirous of change: the Coun∣try-man would be a Cittizen, the Cittizen would be a Souldier, the Souldier would be a Merchant, and the Merchant would be a Gentleman; and which is most of all strange, the poore man would leaue his quiet, his ca∣relesse, and his vnpensiue state, to change with the rich man for his, who neither day not night, nor sleeping, nor waking doth possesse either of body, or mynd any sweet repose.

AQVILONIVS.

It is a very hard thing to be able to perswade men with reasons, vnto that

which they feele to be otherwise in themselues by experi∣ence; for who may repose more quietly then may the rich, that haue all their necessaryes prouided for to their hands, and also their laboursome Offices executed by others? or if by chance they breake any sleep, it is, you may be sure, in thinking of golden employments, or els touching ex∣ployts of Policy and Preferment: so that, the not sleeping of the rich, is more comfortable far, then is the vnquiet and halfe starued sleep of the poore, in the next degree vn∣to death it selfe. And therfore, as it is more then necessa∣ry for a poore man, both for his sleeping and waking, to seeke to better his state, by the getting of riches to releiue his penury, and to comfort his said vnquiet repose; so is it no lesse necessary for a rich man to conserue and increase his wealth already possessed, without being too carelesse, or too negligent therof, at euery smattering Booke-mans perswasion; for like as strength was ordained to withstand violences, and not that the strong should sillily suffer them∣selues to be ouerlaid; and as health was ordayned to make men able to follow their affaires, and not that the health∣full should retiredly rust away in idlenes: so riches were al∣so ordayned to help to prouide for necessaryes, & not that the rich should either foolishly forsake, or consume their wealth lauishly. For what praise could it be either to Lucius Mummius the Roman Captayne (who subdued Corinth) to haue died so poore, by neglecting his owne state, as his Souldiers were driuen to make a common gathering for his buriall? Or vnto Paulus Aemilius (who subdued Ma∣cedon) to haue left his daughters so poore, by the like oc∣casion, that the Common Wealth was faine to giue them their marriage money? Or els vnto the younger Africanus (who destroyed Carthage) to haue neglected so much the care of his family, as his Daughters were fayne to begge

for their dowryes? These be the braue examples of the neglectors and despisers of riches, to haue greatly dam∣nified, if not vtterly vndone, their posterity thereby; contrary vnto that which we read of Pallas, of Callistus, and of Narcissus, the infranchised slaues to Claudius the Emperour, who left behind them diuers millions of Crownes; as also amongst the Philosophers, we read of Cicero, of Terentius Varro, and of Seneca to haue risen from little to be men of great riches: and likewise amongst the souldiers we read of Caius Marius, Lucius Sylla, and of Ventidius Bassus, who by their owne industryes rose vp vnto infinite wealth, and their posterity after them vnto great fame and glory; where on the other side, what in this world can be more reproachfull then pouerty, or a greater enemy vnto all kind of vertue, either in women or men? As for example, in women what more vnfaith∣full a Guardian may there be found of their chastity (and consequently of all that is good in them) then is want and necessity, when as the vnmarried be easily drawne thereby vnto all sorts of lasciuiousnes, for fupply of their need, and the married be drawne no lesse to make like ha∣uock of their honesty? And in the same fort touching the state of men, what so much doth abase them, or maketh abiect and vile their mynds, not only in their owne con∣ceits, but also in the opinion of others, as doth the bur∣den of Pouerty: for (so saith the Wise man, Eccles. cap. 9.) That the wisedome of the poore is despised. And againe (Ec∣cles. cap. 40) That it were better to be dead, then to liue in want and need; adding withall in his Prouerbes; That all the dayes of a poore mans life, be nothing els but misery. Besides that, what also may be vnto gratuity a greater enemy then the same? What vnto shamefastnes, Cùm non bene conueniunt, nec in vna sede morantur pudor & egestas? And

what vnto the obseruation of all sorts of Laws, both hu∣mane, and diuine, vnto the which necessity beareth no respect at all? So that not without cause is Pouerty called the greatest enemy vnto man, the companion vnto all kind of Vice, and of all other euills the extreamest, yea worse then either sickenes, or imprisonment: for that vnto him who is wealthy, there be remedyes inough to be applyed for the one, and consolations inough to be found for the other; and therfore though you in words do seeme to fauour pouerty neuer so much, yet I suppose for the putting of it in practise, you will striue against it, no lesse then any other.

SVBSOLANVS.

To striue against Pouerty, we are not expresly commaun∣ded, further then necessity requireth, nor yet prohibi∣ted, so long as men get riches without the violating of Iustice, the which is vnderstood to be violated, not only by fraude, or force, as hath byn said before; but partly by not restoring that which is borrowed, and partly by not rendring at the day that which is hired, and likewise by not abstayning to weare out things left vs in custody and trust. And as none of these iniustices are to be vsed for the reliefe of pouerty, so also much lesse for the in∣crease of wealth, since the superfluity therof is not, as you suppose, a shunner of vice, but an enemy to vertue, as hath byn told you already, making men so idle, so slouthfull, and so lasciuious, as they become altogeather effeminate, neither giuen to the practise of Armes, nor yet to the study of letters. And therfore Democritus iud∣ged the aboundance of riches to be foolish, Heraclitus iudged it to be miserable, and Crates iudged it to be fri∣uolous and burdensome, for which respect he threw his Wealth into the sea; though no kind of wealth be so bur∣densome as that, which being wrongfully gotten, doth

seldome tymes descend vnto the third generation, & ther∣fore the burden of honest pouerty cannot be so heauy to beare by much, as the burden of a rich mans culpable con∣science. For what els doth take away either the innocency from the body, or the life from the soule, but the infection of sinne? So that sinne alone is more hurtfull vnto man then can be the hurt of all the world besides, or of Hell it selfe. For what draue the Angells out of Heauen (Isa. 14.) and Adam out of Paradise (Genes. 3.) or the great Floud into the world (Gen. 8.) but sinne? Or what els ouerthrew the great Tower of Babylon (Gen. 11.) or destroyed Ama∣lec, and the Gyants (Exod. 17.) or caused to be cut in peeces the great army of Senacherib (4. Reg. 19.) but sinne? not to speake of the burning of fiue Cittyes (Gen. 19.) or of the persecuting of Aegipt with the seauen plagues (Gen. 41.) or of the drowning of Pharao in the red sea (Exod. 14.) And finally (to omit all other examples ancient and mo∣derne) what are all the miseryes, calamityes, & afflictions that fall vpon men, but punishments for sinne? And ther∣fore seeing that aboundance of riches is a speciall motiue, and cause of sinne (as I haue declared before) it is euident that rich men are in a dangerous state; in which respect our Sauiour himselfe affirmeth, That it is as hard for a rich man to enter into Heauen, as a Camel to passe through a needles eye: wheras poore men on the other side, are in farre greater security, if they be good men withall: for they do still receaue comfort from God in all their distres∣ses be they neuer so great, and do neuer want necessaryes. For so God releiued the pouerty of Agar by an Angell (Gen. 16.) the distresse of Dauid and his people in the desert. (2. Reg. 17.) the misery of Noemi by Ruth the wife of Booz. (Ruth. 2.) and the pouerty of Elias by an Angell (3. Reg. 29.) besides the like done vpon diuers occasions

to the Apostles themselues (Act. 5.12.27.) and to innu∣merable other good men in all ages, wherof infinit ex∣amples might be alledged. Furthermore the poore man who being confident of Gods mercifull prouidence, is conten∣ted with that which God giueth him, wanteth nothing, hauing all that he will haue, because in not willing that which is superfluous, he hath whatsoeuer he desireth, and therfore he alone may be said to be poore, who is not con∣tented with that which he hath, and desireth superfluityes. And on the other side, only he may be said to be rich, who hath no need nor want of any thing, more then is requi∣site, and who desireth not that which he hath not, but only so much as he must needs vse, and may also conueni∣ently haue: so as it is not the aboundance of wealth that maketh a man rich, but the contented mynd; nor the want of wealth that maketh a poore man, but the mynd affli∣cted for that which is wanting. And therfore to be rich with desire of increase, is to be poore, and to be poore without desire of more, is to be rich: the which is another accompt then the world doth vse to make either of the one or the other, reputing him to be poore who hath but little, though he be content therewith, and him to be rich who hath a great deale, though he liue besides it, and neuer thinkes he hath inough. And these kind of rich men be inferiour far vnto that other sort of poore men, both in life, in death, and also after death: in life, I meane, because the poore man enioyeth more his liberty, both to go where he will, and to speake what he will, without any great heed taken vnto him; also suffereth more easily miseryes, as one who is more accustomed to beare them, and taketh more pleasure in any recreation, as one not so wonted to haue them. Likewise the rich man is inferiour to the poore man in respect of his death, because no body conspi∣reth

or desireth his end, for that nothing is to fall vnto them by the same; neither hath he himselfe when he de∣parteth any burden to disquiet his mynd, for that he hath not any accompts with the world to make, neither is he so loath to leaue the world; as the rich man is, to whom not only the houre of death, but also the very remembrance therof is most bitter, as testifieth the holy Scripture, say∣ing; O mors, quàm amara est memoria tui homini habenti pacem in substantijs suis! Moreouer to shew that the rich man is likewise inferiour to the poore man after his death, there shall need heere no other proofe, then that which Christ himselfe hath said therof (Luc. 6.) Blessed are you that be poore, for yours is the Kingdome of heauen. And againe; Mi∣serable are you rich men, who in your riches haue all your conso∣lation. So that the rich man hath his glory here on earth and the poore man hath his in heauen; and therfore God ordayned in the old Law (Deuter. 10.) That the Leuites who were chosen for the Altar, and for his owne seruice, should haue no possessions: and in the new Law the Apostle testifieth (1. Cor. 1.) that Pauperes elegit Deus ad hereditatem regni cae∣le is: yea our Sauiour Christ did not only liue in pouer∣ty himselfe, and choose poore disciples, but also did ad∣uise and counsell a young rich man, to sell all that he had, and giue it to the poore: So that pouerty, although it be most where abhorred, yet is it a great, and an inestimable treasure, in respect both of the world to come, and also of this life, as being the mother of tranquillity, the exclu∣der of disquietnes, the Port of contentment and rest, a sufferance without losse, a passion without strife, and the high way to eternall happines in heauen, so that it be sought and willingly suffered for the loue of God.

A∣QVILONIVS.

And yet for all this we see few rich men that do abandone their wealth, to make themselues poore,

which is a great signe that there is something in pouerty more contrary to nature, then there is in riches.

¶ Heere Fauonius misliking the obstinacy of Aquilo∣nius, said thus vnto him.

FAVONIVS.

He who speaketh against pouerty, speaketh against riches: for first, men were poore before they were rich, and so labouring by little and little against their said pouerty, haue become to be rich in the end.

AQVILONIVS.

Then accor∣ding to this reason, we might likewise say, that he who speaketh against Disprofit, speaketh against Profit; albeit before, we haue said them to be contraryes.

FAVO∣NIVS.

As contrary as they are, it cannot be denyed, but that Disprofit goeth before Profit, and spending before getting; the Plowman must spend in tilling his ground, before he can reape any fruit; the Artizan must lay out in buying of wares to worke vpon, before he can receiue any gaine; and the Merchant at sea must put in venter to loose all, before he can come to see his owne againe. Also the Suitor at Law spendeth much in following of his suite, before he can come to haue any iudgment on his side; the cūning Courtier giueth first many Presents, before he can get any reward in recompence; and the buyer of Land layeth out more money in one hower, then he is to see a∣gaine in twenty yeares after. Likewise the makers of pa∣per must buy many rags, before their paper can be made; the Printers of bookes must buy paper, before their books can be sold; and the students of Sciences must buy many bookes, before they can make any profit of their studyes; wherby it appeareth that Disprofit many times is the be∣ginner of Profit.

AQVILONIVS.

So as by this meanes you will inferre, that if you take away pouerty, you take away riches; and if you take away Disprofit, you take away Profit.

FAVONIVS.

You

say well, since for as much as belongeth to the first part of your proposition, I do aske you, What delight a rich man might hope to find in his riches, if so there were no poore man to do his labours for him? As for example, to till his ground, to keep his horses, to go to the market, to dresse his meat, to fetch home his wood, to playster his walls, and the like; all which seruile offices, and many other worse then these, if he should be driuen to do them himselfe, his wealth might lye by him, and stand him in little steed: so as though by taking away pouerty, you do not actually take away the meanes vnto the getting, and increasing of riches (which may sometimes be other∣wise also obtayned, then by industrious pouerty) yet in effect you should bring therby the rich man to be (for want of Drudges to serue him) in little better case then the poore man himselfe; which poore man, by doing but only those labours for his owne proper vse, which he is now hired to do for the rich man, and the rich man ther∣by forced to do those labours for himselfe, which now the poore man doth for him for his money, he would be of the two, in worse case, by being lesse able then the rich man to take such paynes; and therfore the poore man, if he will, may better liue like a poore man, without the help of the rich man, then the rich man may liue like a rich man, without the help of the poore man.

A∣QVILONIVS.

I thinke you two haue conspired togea∣ther to sort out betwixt you all the subtiltyes, that may be found in the fauour of pouerty, which yet when you haue all done, is like inough (according to the Prouerbe) betwixt two stooles to fall to the bare ground; where barely also it may be like to lye, and that for a good while, I suppose, ere either of you both will stoope to take it vp. But what on the other side haue you yet to say, touching

our mentioned disprofitable Profit? Belike you meane to reduce also the same vnto such a iesting reckoning, as Sub∣solanus, a little before, brought the like proposition.

FA∣VONIVS.

You shall see that, ere it belong, by my man∣ner of proceeding; wherin I haue likewise to aske you, Whether al that wealth which is extant now in the world, be not ech where already possessed?

AQVILO∣NIVS.

It can not be denyed, but that it is.

FA∣VONIVS.

Then whosoeuer will go about to make any increase of Profit, must seeke to drawe to himselfe some part of that wealth of the world which others do yet pos∣sesse.

AQVILONIVS.

If your meaning be of money, either gold, or siluer, he must do so perforce.

FAVONIVS.

So as he who hath money must first dimi∣nish therof, before he, who hath no money, or els but little money, can be able to increase the same.

AQVILO∣NIVS.

Good reason it is, that it should be so.

FA∣VONIVS.

Then the disprofit of the one must precede the Profit of the other, and so by consequence, if you take away the disprofit, you take away the Profit, as hath byn said before.

AQVILONIVS.

You deceiue your selfe herein, and that not a little, since it is not like, that he who hath wealth, will so diminish himselfe of his ha∣uing, without some recompence from him who hath to participate therof, either by his seruice, or by his worke, or els by some other recompence, whereby his Disprofit one way is to be restored him againe, by his Profit some other way.

FAVONIVS.

But what do you say moreo∣uer vnto this other point vnthought of, which yet remay∣neth behind: May not that which a rich man doth take to be for his Profit, fall out otherwise to be Disprofitable vn∣to him?

AQVILONIVS.

You may do well to explane your selfe somewhat better, and then will I an∣swere

you.

FAVONIVS.

As for example, If a rich Vsurer should haue need of a poore Brokers seruice, to help to put out his money to vsury, giuing him for eue∣ry hundred so put forth a competent reward, and that the Broker being bribed on the other side, should cause him to lend his money to one who hath no meanes to repay it; Heere I would know of you, by what kind of Profit, the Vsurer hath to repayre the domage of his Disprofit?

AQVILONIVS.

By seeking his remedy of the Broker: or if he be not able to make it him good, then to stand to his owne losse.

FAVONIVS.

So that in this case, his Profit like inough may be turned to Disprofit.

A∣QVILONIVS.

It cannot be auoyded, but that some∣times such casualtyes will happen.

FAVONIVS.

But what if the Broker himselfe should loose hereby the credit of his office for euer after; would not this be like∣wise vnto him a greater Disprofit, then the Profit of his bribe receiued for doing that treachery?

AQVI∣LONIVS.

A bird in the hand, I can tell you, is better then two in the bush; and therfore it is not good for such a poore man, to leaue the certainty, for the incertainty, lest his pouerty might wholy oppresse him, while his said credit is yet but a growing.

FAVONIVS.

Then in a poore man I perceiue you accompt Treachery not to be Dishonesty.

AQVILONIVS.

Lesse di∣shonesty in him by much, you may be sure, then if it were in a rich man.

FAVONIVS.

So as we may now say by this accompt of yours, that there be two sorts of honesties; one for rich men, & another for poore men.

AQVILONIVS.

You might long since haue vnderstood my meaning herein, without these replica∣tions.

FAVONIVS.

As for example, you meane that the rich mans honesty must be tyed, at lest, vnto all

the strictest rules therof that may be, as well concerning the habits of the mynd, as the vertues of the body, the one to be limited with sincerity, and the other with equity.

AQVILONIVS.

It quadreth very well with his con∣dition.

FAVONIVS.

But the poore mans honesty you say, must be permitted to haue a larger scope, chiefly in respect of his necessity.

AQVILONIVS.

It is a thing, I can tell you, to be had in consideration.

FA∣VONIVS.

So that, if I should practise with such a needy poore fellow, I must allow him the liberty to deceiue me, if he can.

AQVILONIVS.

Such publique allow∣ance therof is not necessary, but only a kind of silent tole∣ration, in respect of his vrgent need.

FAVONIVS.

As much to say, as that I must allow him the name of an honest man, but yet not trust him any more, then if he were a very Knaue.

AQVILONIVS.

Faire words, I pray you, since Nature you know is of her selfe fraile, and this world of ours more corrupted thē euer, according to Subsolanus his assertion a little before.

FAVO∣NIVS.

Will it not then be necessary for these respects to seeke to distinguish somewhat further, whom you take to be a poore man, and whom not, to the end we may deale with him accordingly?

AQVILONIVS.

A poore man, I take him to be, according to the limitation of the Ciuill Law, whose wealth doth not passe the value of fif∣ty Crownes.

FAVONIVS.

Then if any necessi∣ty of myne should constrayne me to vse the help of a new set vp Notary, not knowne to me before, I must first aske him, whether his wealth do amount to fifty Crownes, be∣fore I do aduenture to vtter vnto him the secrets of my in∣tention, to the end to know what kind of honesty I may looke for at his hands, either the strict, or els the more ample.

AQVILONIVS.

You seeme, me thinkes,

inclined rather to quarrell, then to conclude, by picking these exceptions so impertinent to the purpose.

¶ Heere Subsolanus being desirous to draw this que∣stion to an end, began againe to say to Aquilonius.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

Me thinkes it would now be requisite, see∣ing nothing can be profitable, as hath been said before, that is not iust, to add therunto this other assertion, that nothing can be iust, which is not honest; for that no iu∣stice can stand without honesty, nor no honesty with∣out iustice, nor no Profit without both: and therfore like as Honesty in a Magistrate, is to be called Iustice, so Iustice in a poore man is to be accounted Honesty, and both honesty and iustice as well in the poore man, as in the Magistrate, are to be called Vertues, because he who is not vertuous can neither be iust, nor yet honest; wher∣upon it followeth, that the ground of all lawfull Profit, must first proceed from Vertue, as from the originall of all morall goodnes, since he who is vertuous, hath all∣wayes a scruple to get any thing indirectly, lest he should be vrged to make restitution therof againe with shame; for he who doth not this, deceiueth many others, and himselfe also, vnto his owne vtter perdition in the end, as shall appeare further hereafter. So that vertue, iustice, honesty, and lawfull Profit go allwayes linked insepara∣bly togeather; the Profit being directed by iustice, and honesty, and both these by vertue. Furthermore what sufficient excuse or pretence can there be for fraudulent dealing, when Nature her selfe hath prouided sufficient and lawfull meanes for the reliefe of pouerty, to wit, ho∣nest industry, and frugall parsimony, two such princi∣pall, and also familiar kinds of helps, as few men be de∣barred from them, at leastwise, for the supply of so much as is needfull. For first, as touching honest industry, it is

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to be noted, that no man by nature hath more burden laid vpon him, then of one mouth to feed, and of one backe to cloath; vnto the supply wherof, she hauing giuen him two leggs, and also two hands, the number of Puruey∣ours, is double to the number of consumers: besides that, she hath also giuen him agility of wit to teach him, and strength of body to enable him, and freenes of will to put him forward vnto the lawfull applying his said leggs and hands, for the sustenance of his whole body. And as con∣cerning his frugall parsimony to spare and lay vp of that, which he hath lawfully gotten, his owne reason, besides the instinct of nature, ought not a little to mooue him ther∣unto, since dayly there may happen vnto him, not only vnlooked for losses, but also sicknes which may hinder his industry, if not age it selfe, which is not apt to worke any more; and therfore the remedy vnto all these casualtyes, is that frugall parsimony spoken of before, the which may be called a sure and fauourable Hospitall, if not rather a Sanctuary to keep men from penury, and imprisonment, far more sure then heretofore were either the publike Hos∣pitall of Cadmus in Thebes, or the famous Temple of Diana in Ephesus; for if men would be content to leaue off all defrauding, and liue frugally, that is to say, with only so much as were necessary, we should see as few beggers, or as few prisoners for debt, as we see at this day either Cen∣taures, or Gorgons.

AQVILONIVS.

These rules of yours against fraude, and deceiuing, and in the fauour of lawfull getting, were, I confesse, to be considered, if euery man would be content to obserue them alike as wel, I meane, the contented poore man with his owne estate, as he who aspireth vnto higher fortune: but since it is im∣possible to bring it to passe, but that deceiuers of men, for their owne gaine, will still be found, I hold it therefore

a kind of worldly wisedome, rather to deceiue then to be deceiued; so long as it is warily done, either for the sup∣ply of need, or els, as hath byn said, vnto the increase of degree, for that euery man will not be content to liue alwayes in low estate, as you by your former proposi∣tions would suppose.

SVBSOLANVS.

Though he be neuer so desirous to increase his degree aboue the ranke of those of whome we haue lastly spoken, yet to promote that desire of his, he must not go about to de∣ceiue others, vnder pretence of not being deceiued, since hereby it might follow, that he may so deceiue those who had no intention at all to deceiue him: besides that, if you will allow profitable deceiuing to be such a badge of a worldly wise man, you take thereby away from his wise∣dome, all the reputation of that vertue, iustice, and ho∣nesty which we haue already spoken of, and so thereby do make no difference betwixt good men, and euill men.

AQVILONIVS

I would not you should take me for such a confounder of these things so togeather, but that still, I make this difference betwixt them; to wit, that these men for the most part, whom you do accompt to be good, are ech where seene to be poore, needy, miserable, full of aduersityes, full of wants, full of affliction, and full of all persecution, because either they cannot flatter, or not tolerate the lightnes of mens conditions, or not forbeare to speake of their faults too freely; wheras con∣trarywise, those other whom for following their gaine you accompt to be euill, are seene to be rich, iocund, ex∣alted, loaden with rewards, with followers, and with all other felicityes of this world: in so much as throughout all the places, where I do passe, I heare in effect no other talke, then whose is this sumptuous Pallace of such a Ri∣bald? whose is that other of such an Vsurer? whose is that

great Kingdome of such an Vsurper? that other great do∣minion of such a Murderer? this wonderfull wealth of such a Traytor? of such a Pander? or of such a Flatterer? what say you to this? Were it not better to be one of these euill men, then one of your good men? Therfore see, I pray you, now whether I know or not, how to distin∣guish betwixt them, and that in such manner, that a man of little skill may be able therof welnigh to make his ele∣ction. So as to conclude, none but such as either haue not the fortune, or not the wit to attayne to these benefits, are driuen to shrowd their baser condition (and that possibly more for shame then for loue) vnder the positiue titles of honesty, and goodnes.

SVBSOLANVS.

In this former accompt of yours, do you make your said fraudu∣lent rich man to consist of body only, or of both body and soule?

AQVILONIVS.

The care of his soule be it vnto himselfe, or to him that hath the charge therof, for that point dependeth vpon another accompt.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

But yet let me aske you, whether your re∣cited benefits, happening to such an euill man, be benefi∣ciall also for his soule, or but for his body only?

A∣QVILONIVS.

Belike you take me for the Curate of the Parish where I dwell, but you deceiue your selfe therin, let euery man render accompt of his owne charge, for I speake like one of myne owne profession.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

Yet this ensueth therof, that put the case, it were neuer so good for the body to be fraudulently rich, yet if it be euill for the soule, the one halfe at the least of all your euill mans felicityes, is lost by the affliction which the same may heap vpon the soule, of which point I will treat parti∣cularly in the conclusion of this dayes Conference; and now in the meane tyme, we will consider whether all that you haue said be true in respect of the body alone. Therfore

I would know, whether he that seemeth vnto you for his wealth to be so happy abroad, may not be full of o∣ther miseryes, and infelicityes at home?

AQVI∣LONIVS.

It cannot be denied, but that some discon∣tentments he may possibly haue.

SVBSOLANVS.

Those some belike you meane to be either these, or such like; As for example, to be afflicted with an vnruly, or disloyall wife, a disgracious or vnthrifty heire, a defa∣med or dishonest generation of daughters, or which is a more noysome euill, an vnplacable nature of his owne, either stirred vp with drinke, whereby he allwayes ray∣leth, or ouerheated with choller, whereby continually he striketh, or els oppressed with suspition, whereby he neuer leaueth to torment both himselfe and others, and so enioyeth no pleasure or contentment of any thing he possesseth; or if any little contentment he find, it is pos∣sibly more when he is abroad, then in his owne house, albeit abroad also the reproachfull encounters of his ex∣ternall dishonest proceedings, cannot but much diminish the same, not suffering such a polluted person to looke vpon good men with a right eye, nor to talke with them willingly, but casting downe his head to fly and shunne their company, for feare least any thing might escape his mouth to his owne condemnation; the which vigilancy of his, yet serueth him to little purpose, for that in his ve∣ry sleep he many tymes bewrayeth his foulest faults, the which is an vsuall punishment that followeth ech where a guilty conscience, declaring thereby what a terrour it is to liue in such a state, as neither waking nor sleeping, he taketh any quiet consolation or repose, but is alwayes tormented with the terrour of his owne wickednesse. But admit that his impudency may somewhat ouercome this defect, and that either in sensuality of life, or scurrilous

actions, or other corrupt behauiour, he may happen to find any more contentment abroad then at home; yet is it still accompanied with little reputation, and also in effect no more pleasure then the wicked poorer sort of men doe likewise find; and so his estate, by this accompt, is but little better then the estate of him that possesseth much lesse, if it be not rather much worse, by how much the care of keeping his ill gotten wealth tormenteth him more. And therfore let the euill rich man either stay at home, or go a∣broad where he will, let him gather wealth, or purchase reuenewes, let him build very stately, or feed very deli∣cately, yea let him fill his Wardrobe with rich apparell, his chambers with precious ornaments, his chests with plate, his compt-bookes with debts, his stable with horses, and his house with neuer so many seruants; yet shall he neuer be able to rid his heart of griefe, his breast of feare, his co∣gitations of shame, his conferences of reproach, his solita∣rines of distractions, nor his conscience of continuall bi∣ting remorse, then the which there can be no greater signes and tokens to be had of a most lamentable and miserable state: the which is so much also the fuller of torment, and affliction, by reason of his alwayes most vnsatiable and greedy mynd of hauing and getting, neuer contented or satisfied with that he possesseth, but the more he heapeth and boardeth vp, the more he still desireth; and all this vn∣to his greater affliction, seruitude, and slauery, by ma∣king thereby himselfe more thrall then before, either vnto the tempestuous variety of sickle fortune, or of filthy vice, if not of both, the which may be said to striue, as it were, whether shall be able to torment him most, or to make him most miserable, by reason of his bondage and subiection alike vnto either; albeit fortune without vice, cannot af∣flict much, be she neuer of her selfe so contrary: but where

they accord to assault on both sides togeather, there is no vnhappines of state to be compared vnto it, notwith∣standing that the party to the shew of the world do still maintaine a stately port, and be continually accompted by the vulgar sort, to be the happiest man of his nation. And therfore I may conclude, that as the Scorpion hath in her the remedy of her owne poyson; so the euill man carrieth alwayes with him the punishment of his owne wickednes, the which doth neuer leaue to torment and afflict his mynd, both sleeping and waking, according as it happened to Appollidorus, to Hyparchus, to Pausanius, and many others whome Plutarch mentioneth. For where there concurre togeather (as with the rich peruerser sort of men it is commonly seene to do) desire of vnlawfull gaine, of vnlawfull pleasure, of implacable hatred, and of vnlawfull reuenge; there without doubt concurreth a great deale of hidden infelicity: & which is worst of all, when the peruerse rich man hapneth by any mutation of fortune, to want of his accustomed wealth, for the sup∣plying of his frequent iniquityes, then his vnruly desires neuer leaue to exclaime and cry out vpon him, till they bring him in the end to commit some fouler outrages, then euer before; as for example to steale, to take by force, yea and to violate the very Temples themselues, or otherwise to be tormented still with incessant stimu∣lations and dolours. Iudge therfore now vnto what a happy and pleasant end your forsaid deceiuer of men, for his owne commodity, may be like to come be∣fore he dye, besides all his other perturbations and af∣flictions spoken of before, being counter-poyses suffi∣cient to weigh downe all the supposed and mistaken fe∣licity, which you haue already attributed vnto him.

AQVILONIVS.

Because I carelesly condescended

vnto you, vpon your owne meere interrogation, that some discontentments might happen indeed vnto such a rich man, therfore belike you will cunningly threaten it vpon me, as though I had in my meaning the Cata∣logue of all these Rabblements you haue heere repeated, which, I assure you, I neuer so much as dreamed of; albeit in the meane while, by your heaping of things in such manner togeather, you haue in words at least∣wise, gotten some colourable shew of refuting wholy my former assertion: but sticke you a Gods name to the words, and let me sticke to the matter, till we come to discouer betwixt your followers and myne in this doctrine, whether shall haue more necessity, or need of ech others help in the end.

SVBSOLANVS.

Belike then, honest and vpright proceeding will not be able of it selfe to gaine a man his bread, but that he must be driuen to seeke for his sustenance, at the hands of the worse, and wickeder sort of men.

AQVILONIVS.

It commeth many times, we see, so to passe, for all that you hold it so strange a thing, contrary to that which affirmeth therof the wise Simonides, who being asked once, Whether Vertue or Riches were of more reputation, made answere, that the Vertuous did more frequent the doores of the rich, then the rich of the vertuous. Besides that we see, that the vertuous themselues do not sticke to giue to the rich the titles of all the vertues in the world, yea and beare them all respect, reuerence, and honour, without reprouing them of any their vices, be they neuer so great, no not of their extorsions, which you do so much speake against.

SVBSOLANVS.

Howsoeuer some that are counted vertuous may flatter wicked rich men, in such manner as you haue said, yet men of solid vertue do it not. But tell me, I pray you, be there no good

men, that ariue to aboundance of wealth, and other worldly benefits by good and lawfull meanes; as well as these wicked men do by their euill meanes?

A∣QVILONIVS.

Some few there may be, but not ma∣ny.

SVBSOLANVS.

And on the other side, thinke you, that there be no euill men, that for all their vnrighteous dealing, do liue in want and misery, and seeke for sustenance at good mens hands?

A∣QVILONIVS.

Only some such perhaps, as either know not the way how to couer their iniquityes, or els spend more lauishly then they should.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

Then it is not you say impossible, but that some good men may by their goodnes attayne vnto riches, and that some euill men notwithstanding all their frauds may remayne still poore?

AQVILONIVS.

My meaning is not to stand with you greatly herein.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

But do you not also meane, that as to a∣bound in worldly commodityes is a good thing, so on the other side to be an euill man, is an euill thing?

A∣QVILONIVS.

It were a great errour to thinke other∣wise.

SVBSOLANVS.

Then where an euill man becommeth to possesse aboundance of wealth, will you not likewise graunt, that there an euill thing, and a good thing come to be annexed togeather?

A∣QVILONIVS.

You say well, for it cannot be denyed.

SVBSOLANVS.

But when in like manner a good man possesseth aboundance of wealth, be there not two good things annexed then togeather?

AQVILO∣NIVS.

Of this there is also no doubt at all.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

Moreouer, is the good said to be good, be∣cause it is good, or because it is not euill?

AQVI∣LONIVS.

Because it is good.

SVBSOLANVS.

Then the good rich man, that possesseth two goods, is

he not better, then the euill rich man, who possesseth but one good?

AQVILONIVS.

These sophi∣stications of yours, I cannot well deny, and yet they do not greatly please me.

SVBSOLANVS.

And better then the euill poore man, that possesseth no good thing?

AQVILONIVS.

Let this also be graun∣ted, to get me once out of this Labyrnith.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

But the number you will still say of the good rich men, is fewer then of the euill rich men?

A∣QVILONIVS.

Of this you may rest vndoubtedly sure.

SVBSOLANVS.

And the number also of the euill rich men, fewer then of the euill poore men?

AQVILONIVS.

Without comparison.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

So as it is more like, that an euill man may not become rich, then rich?

AQVILO∣NIVS.

I told you the occasion before, in respect of his vnskillfullnes, or lauishnes, or some other like peruersity.

SVBSOLANVS.

But when such an euill man happe∣neth, by any such occasion, not to become rich, is he not in a very bad case, whiles both he is a bad man, and also a beggar: whereas a good man, though he be not rich, yet because of his goodnes, is he not still in good case?

A∣QVILONIVS.

By your leaue not so, for it is an euill thing vnto him to want riches.

SVBSOLANVS.

You would then inferre hereby, that a good man is not a good man?

AQVILONIVS.

Not so nei∣ther, but that he may be in a euill case, in respect of some wants he may haue of things necessary.

SVBSO∣LANVS.

You meane, I perceiue, because he misseth wealth to comfort him, and sollace him in his goodnes?

AQVILONIVS.

That is my meaning indeed.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

Then wealth being annexed to the state of a good poore man, will make him, you imagine, more

good?

AQVILONIVS.

I haue affirmed in effect so much before.

SVBSOLANVS.

I sup∣pose you meane it, because being a good man, it is to be thought he will apply it well.

AQVILONIVS.

You say rightly.

SVBSOLANVS.

But if wealth should be annexed to the state of an euill poore man, would it not also make him better?

AQVILO∣NIVS.

Who doubteth therof?

SVBSOLANVS.

You meane it (perhaps) because it is to be supposed, that being an euill man, he will apply it also well.

A∣QVILONIVS.

You make a sollace, I perceiue, to iest at your friends.

SVBSOLANVS.

If then an euill man may apply his wealth euilly, it would seeme that wealth of it selfe is not absolutly good.

A∣QVILONIVS.

How can it but be absolutly good, when as it is one of the principall instruments vnto the exercise of vertue, as of Magnificence, Liberality, Be∣neficence, and the like?

SVBSOLANVS.

So is it likewise one of the principall instruments vnto the exercise of Vice, as of Arrogancy, Insolency, Reuenge, and the rest.

AQVILONIVS.

These effects you speake of, do not consist in the Wealth, but in the euill man, that doth euilly vse it.

SVBSOLA∣NVS.

But if the wealth it selfe were truly, and abso∣lutely good, it would make him the better that possesseth it; but this (according vnto Seneca) it doth not, who sayth, What auayleth vnto a Foole his wealth, since he becommeth thereby no whit the wiser, nor the bet∣ter?

AQVILONIVS.

If it make him not the better, it may yet suffice, that it maketh him not the worse.

SVBSOLANVS.

If you will beleeue the Philosopher in his Rhetoricke, it maketh him also the worse, seeing that it maketh men Proud, Iniuri∣ous,

and Intemperate.

AQVILONIVS.

He doth not meane, that it maketh all men so, but some men only: for if they be inclined vnto Vice, it may make them more vicious; as on the other side, if they be in∣clyned vnto Vertue, it may make them more vertuous: and therfore it is to be accompted among those externall good things, which help vnto humane felicity.

SVB∣SOLANVS.

There can be nothing more repugnant vn∣to reason, then to make Wealth a part of humane felici∣ty; since on the other side, the same is rather held to be either an instrument, or a member of Iniquity. For so saith the Philosopher in the Booke before mentioned, That rich men for the most part, are either Vnrighte∣ous, or the Heires vnto those that haue been Vnrighte∣ous, as vnto some Extortioner, Deceiuer, Periurer, or the like. So as, if Wealth could make men happy, we might then conclude, that humane felicity were nothing els but the reward of Iniquity.

AQVILONIVS.

If Wealth may not make men happy, you may be sure, that Pouerty may do it much lesse; for if happines con∣sisted in Pouerty, then might we likewise say, that Feli∣city were nothing els, but the reward of a disconten∣ted and disquiet mynd, because pouerty is accompanied with nothing more.

SVBSOLANVS.

If we will belieue Arcesilaus, it is accompanied rather with Humility with Industry, and aboue all with Security; for that the rich, and not the poore be the Preyes vnto Pilferers, Robbers, and Manquellers. And to the end you may know, what Pouerty is accompanied with true Humility, you are to vnderstand, that of Pouertyes there be two sorts, the one, as I may say Vnuoluntary, being incurred, and suffered against a mans will; and the other Voluntary, being chosen and vndertaken of a mans

owne free election: of which the first is yrksome and grieuous, yea many times vitious and sinfull, being ac∣companied which Enuy, vnlawfull Desire of other mens goods, Fraud, and Deceipt, Pilfering, and Robbing, and sometymes it causeth Murders and all kind of Mis∣chiefs, and therfore is hatefull both to God and Man. The second may be deuided into two sorts; of the which the one may be termed Morall, and the other Religious, or Euangelicall. The Morall was practised by many of the old Philosophers, who freely abandoned their wealth, and chose to liue in pouerty, to auoyd the danger, and disquiet of mynd, which commonly followeth Riches, as hath byn sufficiently signified before. The Religious, or Euangelicall Pouerty being that only which is chosen and suffered for the pure Loue of God, was taught and practised by Christ our Sauiour himselfe, and his Apo∣stles, and hath him alwayes, and is still professed and practised in his Church by many of his seruants. And this sort of Pouerty is that which is accompanyed with true Humility, Peace, Contentment, and heauenly Conso∣lations; and the Poore of this sort are those whome our Sauiour called B essed, and to whome he promised a hun∣dred fold in this life, and the Kingdome of Heauen in the next.

AQVILON.

If all men should be poore, such a Society would be like a body that were all head, or all legges, the which would not only be vnseruiceable, but also deformed; and therfore Nature hauing ordained some men to be poore, & some to be rich, it cannot well be said that Wealth of it selfe is euill; or if by chance, it may seeme at any time to be euill, this is to be attributed still vnto the euill mynd of him that euilly applyeth it, rather then to any thing els.

SVBSOLA.

Then if an euill man may apply his Wealth euilly, the euil applying therof may make an euill man the worse.

AQVILON.

As touching this,

I will not greatly stand with you.

SVBSOLA.

So that Wealth by the same reason may hurt a good man also, if he should happen to apply it euilly.

AQVILO.

Like in∣ough it may.

SVBSOLA.

Therefore when God retay∣neth a good man from waxing rich, it is not a signe of any hate he beareth him, but only that for his more good he pre∣serueth him from a temptation, to become the worse.

A∣QVILO.

It may welnigh be so; but what of al this?

SVB∣SOLA.

And so on the other side, when God doth suffer an euill man by any vnlawfull meanes to become very wealthy, it is not a signe of any loue he beareth him, but that only for his greater confusion, he meaneth to let him runne the more irrecuperably vnto his owne perdition.

AQVILON.

These melancholy notes of yours, do rather distemper then any whit tune me.

SVBSOLA.

That is because you be already out of tune, & yet are loath to per∣ceiue it; but hearken to this other point which may happen to please you better, That when God doth finally suffer any good man by his owne good meanes, and industry, to be∣come rich, it is a great signe that he giues him riches for his greater good, because he foreseeth that by applying of them well, he is to wynne great merit thereby.

AQVI∣LON.

It pleaseth me indeed so well, as I can be content to leaue off with the losse, and to talke of this matter no more, because the further we go, the worse we agree.

SVB∣SOLA.

Neuertheles before we end, I will by your leaue (according to my promise made you heretofore) debate with you, how all this your former doctrine, and dis∣course standeth with diuine Authority: which being per∣formed, I hope you will rest fully satisfied. And ther∣fore for as much as the diuers kinds of vnlawfull gaine (which you haue approued partly in priuate, and partly in publike persons) may be all reduced, as I may say, to one Predicament of Fraud, or Deceyt practised in di∣uers

manners; we are to ponder and waygh the same in the iust and equall ballance, as well of the Law of Nature imprinted in euery mans hart, as also of the diuine Law written in the Holy Scriptures. First then for the Law of Nature; Can any man be so voyd of naturall Reason as to doubt, whether all fraudulent Gaine be not flatly for∣biddē by the Law of Nature, which teacheth this knowne principle, Quod tibi fieri non vis, alteri ne feceris? Therfore if no man would be content to be deceaued by other men, it followeth, that whosoeuer seeketh to gaine by deceauing others, transgresseth the Law of Nature. Besides that, man being ordeyned and borne not for himselfe alone, but to liue in community and ciuill society; it is euident that nothing is more contrary to the Common Wealth then Deceyt and Fraud, which being admitted would destroy all Traffique, and Commerce, and all Trust and Confidence amongst men, without the which there can be no Iustice, wherof Fidelity (as Cicero sayth very well in his Offices lib. 1.) is the foundation, and consequently there could be no Common Wealth. In which respect Cicero also saith in the same place, That nothing doth more firmely vnite, and hold togeather the Common Wealth, then Fidelity, which therfore Valerius Maximus (lib. 6. cap. 6.) calleth Venerabile Numen &c. a Venerable and Diuine Power, and the most sure Pledge of humane se∣curity. And the Romans esteemed it so much, that in the honour of it they buylt a Temple, wherein all Lea∣gues, and important Couenants were publikely made and sworne, and he that afterwards did breake them, was detested of all men. Also man being made to the I∣mage of God, who is Verity and Truth it selfe, ought alwayes to conserue in himselfe the similitude and like∣nes of God, which likenes by fraud and deceyt he vtter∣ly looseth, becomming the true Image of the Diuell,

who is worthily called Diabolus, that is to say, A Deceyuer, being, as our Sauiour tearmeth him (Ioan. 8.) Mendax, & pater eius, a Lyar and the father of Lyes. And there∣fore no meruaile, that the written Law of God doth so much condemne deceytfull and fraudulent dealing, that it accompanieth and compareth the fraudulent man with the Bloud-sucker, detesting them both: Virum sanguinum, & dolosum (sayth the Psalmist) abhominatur Dominus. And therfore God also threatneth to punish them both a∣like with vntimely death. Viri sanguinum & dolosi (saith the same Psalmist. Psal. 54.) non dimidiabunt dies suos. And how detestable also in the sight of God is all deceyt and the Deceyuer, the Holy Ghost signifieth, and inculcateth very often els where in the Holy Scripture saying (Prou. 1.) Euery Deceyuer is abhominable before God. And againe (cap. 8.) I detest the double-tongued man. And (cap. 20.) speaking of a common coosenage generally vsed also in these our dayes by false weyghts and measures, he sayth: Weyght and Weyght, Measure and Measure is detestable in the sight of God. Likewise the Prophet Micheas threat∣neth the Iewes with destruction for their frauds, and deceyts (cap. 6.) As yet (saith he) there is fire in the house of the impious, treasures of iniquity, and a lesser measure full of wrath: why shall I iustify an impious ballance, and the de∣ceytfull weyght of the bagge, by which their rich men were replenished with iniquity, and the Inhabitants therein spake lyes; and their tongue was fraudulent in their mouths, and therfore I began to stryke thee with perdition for thy sinnes. Thus sayd Almighty God by the mouth of his Prophet. And the like, yea a more terrible threat of eternall per∣dition, is denounced by the Psalmist to a deceytfull ton∣gue. Thou hast loued (sayth he, Psal. 51.) all words of precipitation, a deceytfull tongue; therefore God will destroy thee eternally: he will pluck thee vp, and re∣moue

thee out of thy Tabernacle, and roote thee out of the Land of the liuing. Loe then how hatefull to Al∣mighty God is all deceitfull and fraudulent dealing, be it by word, or act. And this being true in priuate persons, what shall we thinke of fraud and deceit in Magistrates, Iudges, and publike Persons? How abhominable is the same to God and Man, and pernicious not only to the Cō∣mon Wealths which they gouerne, but also to themselues through the seuerity of Gods Iustice and Iudgements v∣pon them? In which respect King Iosaphat hauing con∣stituted and ordayned Iudges in the Cittyes of Iuda, said vnto them (2. Par. 19.) Videte quid faciatis &c. Looke well what you do, for you do not exercise the Iudgement of Man, but of God, and whatsoeuer you shall Iudge, shall redound to your selues. So he. And the hurt that redoun∣deth to the Common wealth, by the iniustice of the Ma∣gistrates, doth not consist only in the iniuryes done to the members therof, but also in the punishment that God in∣flicteth many times vpon the whole State for the sinnes of the Heads, when the same are not punished and refor∣med in the offenders; such being the seuerity of Gods Iu∣stice, that when the Magistrats are either themselues cor∣rupt, or els negligent in punishing the faults of others, he cōmonly imposeth some generall penalty vpon the whole common Wealth, and many times destroyeth the same, or transferreth the gouerment therof to stranges, as the ho∣ly Ghost signifieth in Ecclesia••••icus (Cap. 10.) saying: Reg∣num à Gente in Gentem tranfertur &c. A Kingdome is trans∣ferred from Nation to Nation for Iniustice, and Iniuries, and Calumniations, and diuers Deceits. So as if we duly consider the enormity of Fraudes, Deceits, and of all kind of Iniustice, especially in Magistrates, in whome the same commonly passeth without any humane punishment, we shall easily conclude the Fraudulent to be not only trea∣cherous

to priuate men whome they deceaue and abuse, but also trayterous to the common Wealth, by reason of the diuine Punishment which they draw vpon the same; besides the eternall damnation which they purchase to themselues for their owne offence therein if they do not repent, and do sufficient satisfaction for it in this life; which Satisfaction neuerthelesse cannot be done in mat∣ters of Iniustice and Iniuryes without restitution of ill gotten goods, honour, and fame, according to the most Christian and knowne axiome of S. Augustine: Non dimit∣titur peccatum, nisi restituatur ablatum. In which repsect the Publican Zachaeus, being by our Sauiour conuerted, and illuminated with the light of his Grace, did not content himselfe to make a bare restitution of the iust valew only what he had wrongfully and fraudulently got, but pro∣mised to restore the quadruple, that is to say, foure times so much as he had guilfully & vnlawfully gained of any man; alluding perhaps to the Law of Moyses (Exod. 22.) where it was ordeyned, That in cases of Theft, sometimes the double, sometimes the quadruple, yea & otherwhiles fiue times so much as was stolne should be restored. In which respect King Dauid swore to Nathan (2. Reg. 12.) that the rich man who had wrongfully taken a sheep from a poore man, should not only dye for it, but also restore the quadruple, for so indeed it was ordained in the Law. Now then this being so, it is to be considered, what he gayneth that enricheth himselfe by Fraud and Deceyt, seeing that he looseth not only his reputation (if it be knowne) but also his soule (how secretly soeuer he do it) in case he do not repent, and make Restitution of his vn∣lawfull gaine, so farre as his ability will extend. Therfore, as I asked you before, whether you made accompt that your fraudulent rich man should consist of body only, or both of body and soule; so now I add thereto another de∣mand,

to wit, whether you will haue him to be a beast, or a man? for if you accompt him for a man, that is to say, a reasonable creature, we must exact of him to do the of∣fice of a man, and not of a beast, to which purpose the Psal∣mist saith, Nolite fieri sicut equus & mulus, quibus non est intel∣lectus; that is to say, be not lead, or moued chiefly by sense and pleasure, & by the apprehension only of present obiects, as horses, mules, and other beasts are, but by rea∣son, and the due consideration of future things, and of the end of euery thing, and especially of that which be∣longeth to the eternall good of the soule, without which consideration no man either is, or can be worthily accoū∣ted a man, and much lesse a wise man, for as the Wiseman saith (Eccles. 37.) Est sapiens animae suae sapiens; and therfore Moyses, bewayling the folly of the Iewes, in that behalfe, calleth them, a people without wit and prudence, saying (Deut. 32.) Gens absque consilio est, atque prudentia; vtinam saperent, & intelligerent, ac nouissima prouiderent: & the Psal∣mist speaking of such rich worldlings, as you haue hither∣to so highly commended, compareth them to brute beasts (Psal. 48.) Homo (saith he) cùm in honore esset, non intellexit; comparatus est iumentis insipientibus, & similis factus est illis. And little better accompt made the Philosophers and wise Paynims of such as prefer honour, riches, and worldly cō∣modityes before Vertue. In which respect Aristotle compa∣reth them to children, who esteeme their Puppits more then gold: and Seneca saith (Ep. 96.) that they are far more foolish then children, playing the fooles notably, not as children do in tryfles, & matters of no moment or danger, but in things of great wayght and cōsideration, so as, saith he, veriùs, cariusque insaniunt, they are more truly & cost∣ly mad. Therfore now to conclude, concerning all that Profit and Gaine which you haue hitherto placed in frau∣dulent meanes, it is most euident, that being preiudiciall

and hurtful to the soule it cannot be accounted either gain∣full, or any way profitable, but most noysome and perni∣cious according to our Sauiours expresse testimony, saying: Quid prodest homini, si vniuersum mundum lucretur, animae verò suae detrimentum patiatur? wherupon it also followeth, that the Philosophers Axiome is true, to wit, That nothing is pro∣fitable which is not honest (wherof I promised you before to giue you now a speciall reason.) For seeing that all Disho∣nesty whatsoeuer is hurtfull to the soule, it cannot possibly be profitable, no more then a pleasant stong wine can be holsome in a hoat burning Feuer, which albeit for the pre∣sent seemeth to refresh and comfort the sick man, yet after∣wards turneth to his great domage: and euen so fareth it with all euill gotten gaine, which, though at first, and for a while contenteth the couetous mynd of the getter, yet in the end breedeth his euerlasting torment, if, as I haue said before, he doth not satisfy Gods Iustice by repentance, and restitution to his power. Therfore consider now with your selfe, what reason you haue had in your former assertions, either to condemne good men so much as you haue done, for their Pouerty arising by honest Syncerity, or to extoll bad men so much aboue measure, for their riches growing by their fraudulent Practises, and other reproachfull Ini∣quityes. The which is as much as occurreth heere to be said, concerning the whole scope of vnlawfull Profit, generally considered.