The tryal of William Viscount Stafford for high treason in conspiring the death of the King, the extirpation of the Protestant religion, the subversion of the government, and introduction of popery into this realm : upon an impeachment by the knights, citizens, and burgesses in Parliament assembled, in the name of themselves and of all the commons of England : begun in Westminster-Hall the 30. day of November 1680, and continued until the 7. of December following, on which day judgment of high treason was given upon him : with the manner of his execution the 29. of the same month.

The Fourth Day.

Friday, December 3. 1680.

ABout the Hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into Westmin∣ster-Hall, and returned in their former Order into the Court there erected; and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair, the Commons were seated as before mentioned.

The Court being sat, Proclamation for Silence was made, and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar, which being done, the Lord High Steward spake to the Prisoner as followeth.

L. H. Steward.

My Lord Stafford, your Lordships Defence took up yester∣day; All the day was employed in hearing your Lordships Witnesses to impeach the Credit of the Testimony that hath been given against you. Your Lordship hath excepted against Dugdale, because you were not at Tixall, as he says you were; neither the latter end of August, nor the beginning of September till the Twelfth; and when you were there, you never sent for him to your Chamber, but your Man upon his own desire brought him, and when he came there, the business was to desire you to get leave that he might go to the Race; and there was no opportunity of private Discourse, because your Men were in the Room all the while; That Dugdale hath often said he knew nothing of the Plot; that he swore falsly when he said he told of the Letter about the death of Sir

Edmunbury Godfrey before it was known he was killed; and when he said, that Hobson told him presently after the Almoner went over, which was three years before Hobson came to my Lord Aston's Service. Your Lordship hath likewise objected, that he hath corrupted persons to swear falsly against you, and others, as Robinson the Upholsterer, against your Lordship, Morrall the Barber against Sir James Symons, and Holt the Blacksmith to swear that one Moor carried away Evers. Your Lordship hath endeavoured to discredit Oats, by his saying he knew nothing of any other persons that were concerned in the Plot, and after accusing the Queen: Your Lordship hath Impeached the Credit of Turbervill, by proving, that you came home by Diep, and not by Calice, as he says you did; That you had never the Gout while you were in France, nor, as your Page says, for these seven years; That my Lord Castlemain was not at my Lord Powis's in the year 73. and there you left off. This I take is the Sum of what your Lordship says, if I do you any wrong, your Lordship will put me in mind of it.

L. Stafford.

I thank your Lordship, you have done it with great Equity and Truth.

L. H. Stew.

Then go on.

L. Stafford.

The next Witness that I call, is one John Porter.

(Who stood up.)

L. H. Stew.

What is your Name?

Witness.

John Porter.

L. H. Stew.

What Profession are you of?

Porter.

A Butler.

L. H. Stew.

To whom?

Porter.

To my Lord Powis.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I desire your Lordships would ask him what Mr. Tur∣bervill said about the Plot.

L. H. Stew.

I will ask him all the Questions your Lordship desires I should ask him.

Mr. Foley.

We desire to know what Religion he is of?

L. Stafford.

I desire your Lordships would ask him that Question, and not the Managers.

L. H. Stew.

They will tell me their Questions, my Lord, and I will ask them.

L. Staff.

They ask him, my Lords, and not you.

L. H. Stew.

What Religion are you of?

Porter.

A Church of England man my Lords.

Mr. Serj. Maynard.

The Popish Church of England, I believe.

L. Stafford.

Pray, my Lords▪ let not this be, when my Witness says he is of the Church of England, they cry he is of the Popish Church of England.

Mr. Serj. Maynard.

Pray, good my Lord, we are silent when you ask him

proper Questions, and make no Remarks, we do not speak it to the Court, we may say what we will among our selves, I hope.

L. Staff.

I may ask impertinent Questions, because I do not understand so well as these Gentlemen. But I pray they may not deal thus with me.

L. H. Stew.

My Lord, you shall ask what Questions you please.

L. Stafford.

Pray ask him what Mr. Turbervill said to him about his knowledge of the Plot.

L. H. Stew.

What did Turbervill say to you about his knowing of the Plot?

Porter.

About a year since, when I served my Lord Powis, as Butler there, he was used to come and see me, it was not at my Lords House, but he sent for me to a Victualling-House—

L. H. Stew.

That was the last year?

Porter.

Yes.

L. H. Stew.

What time of the Year?

Porter.

It was about Twelve Months ago, I cannot say positively the time.

L. H. Stew.

Was it Winter or Summer?

Porter.

He hath been both, I can't be positive which; I believe he hath been there 40 times.

L. H. Stew.

In the year (80) or (79?)

Porter.

In the year (79.)

L. H. Stew.

What did he say?

Porter.

He came there, and asked me how my Lord Powis did, and said he was extremely troubled that he was in that Affliction, for he did verily believe, that neither he, nor the rest of the Lords were in the Plot, and the Witnesses that swore against him, he believed were perjured, and could not believe any thing of it.

L. H. Stew.

Have you any more to say?

Porter.

Yes, my Lords, I told him if there were such a thing as a Plot, he having been beyond Sea, must certainly know of it; he told me, as he hoped for Salvation, he knew nothing of it, neither directly nor indirectly, against the Kings Sacred Person, nor the Subversion of the Government. And he further said; Although I am a little low at present, and my Friends will not look upon me, yet I hope God Almighty will never leave me so much, as to let me swear against innocent Persons, and forswear and damn my self.

L. H. Stew.

Where was this said to you?

Porter.

At the Ship Alehouse in Lincolns Inn Fields one time, another time at the Kings Head Tavern in the Strand, and another time at the Golden Ball in the Strand.

L. H. Stew.

Was any body by, besides your self?

Porter.

Not at that time, but there is a Gentleman in Court, that can testifie that he said such things at other times.

L. H. Stew.

What say you to this Turbervill?

Mr. Turbervill.

I say 'tis all false. But if your Lordships please, I'll tell you what I said once, I did conceive my Lord Powis was the least concerned of any, I thought, and I hoped it would prove so. I can take all the Oaths in the world I said no more.

L. H. Stew.

What else do you know?

Porter.

Only such things as these he hath often said.

Earl of Shaftsbury.

Pray, my Lords, ask him how came Turbervill to talk of Witnesses about the Plot.

L. H. Stew.

Upon what occasion came Turbervill to talk of these matters?

Porter.

It was only voluntary of himself, it was speaking of my Lord Powis, and the rest of the Lords in the Tower.

Earl of Shaftsbury.

My Lords I mean of his own being a Witness.

L. H. Stew.

How came Turbervill to say, he hoped God Almighty would never forsake him so far, as to let him swear against innocent Persons, he was never called to be a Witness?

Porter.

But, my Lords, some of his Friends did say they were fearful of him, in regard he was reduced to poverty; His Friends were fearful.

L. H. Stew.

Who were fearful?

Porter.

His Brother and Sister, Mr. Turbervill and his Wife.

L. H. Steward.

Did he take notice to you that they were afraid he would come in?

Porter.

Yes, Mr. Turbervill did tell me himself, that they heard he would come in?

L. H. Stew.

Have you said all you have to say?

Porter.

My Lords that is all I have to say.

L. H. Stew.

Then call another, my Lord.

L. Stafford.

Where is Mr. Yalden?

(Who stood up.)

L. H. Steward.

What is your Name?

Witness.

Yalden.

L. H. Stew.

Your Christian Name?

Witness.

John.

L. H. Stew.

What is your Profession?

Yalden.

A Barrester at Law.

L. H. Stew.

How long have you been called to the Bar?

Yalden.

I was called to the Bar last Trinity Term 12 months.

L. H. Stew.

What House are you of?

Yalden.

Grays-Inn.

L. H. Stew.

Are you a Practiser?

Yalden.

Yes, my Lords.

L. H. Steward.

What Religion are you of?

Yalden.

Of the Church of England.

L. H. Steward.

Well, what can you say?

Yalden.

I am summoned to appear by Order of this House, and I desire to know of my Lord what he is pleased to examine me about.

L. Staff.

What Mr. Turbervill hath said in his hearing about the Plot.

L. H. Stew.

What Discourse hath passed between you and Turbervill about the Plot?

Yalden.

My Lords, in February or March last, I was walking in Grays-Inn-Walks with Mr. Turbervill, and Mr. Powell and he dined with me a day or two after, and there Mr. Turbervill and I were talking of the Distractions of the Times, how Trade was ruined, how the whole Kingdom was out of order, and he was a little touched at some things, and cryed out, Go! Dam me, now, there is no Trade good but that of a Discoverer, but the Devil take the Duke of York, Mon∣mouth, Plot and all, for I know nothing of it.

L. H. Stew.

That is odd, that he should say it was a good Trade to be a Disco∣verer, and at the same time say, he knew nothing of the Plot.

Yalden.

This I understood to be his meaning; he cursed himself and them, because he knew nothing of the Plot to discover, for he would have got money by it (as I understood) as well as others.

Mr. Turbervill.

My Lords, Mr. Yalden did declare yesterday, he was summoned in by my Lord Stafford the last night, and that he had nothing to say but what was by Hear say.

Mr. Yalden.

My Lords, I do declare what I say is true; and yesterday Mr. Powell gave me a Caution to take heed what I did, and swore, by God, it would else be the worse for me.

L. H. Steward.

Who did?

Yalden.

Mr. Powell.

L. H. Steward.

Who is that?

Yalden.

Mr. Turbervill's Friend. And I said I do not appear here as a vo∣luntary Evidence, but by an Order of the House of Lords; I do not know what weight my Evidence may have, for I can say nothing but what I heard him say, and so perhaps it will be taken but for an Hear-say.

Mr. Turbervill.

You said you knew nothing but by Hear-say.

L. H. Stew.

Will you ask him any Questions Gentlemen?

Managers.

No, my Lords.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I shall not trouble your Lordships with any more Wit∣nesses as to these Points; I have here a Copy of the Warrant for the Yaught to go to Diep; and if there be any Question whether I did come over from Diep at Christmas 75. if you please the Book may be searched.

L. H. Stew.

My Lord it is all lost, for I hear not one word.

L. Stafford.

I say, my Lords, if it be fit to trouble your Lordships with it, I can prove that I did come over in the Yaught from Diep at Christmas 75. Here is the Copy of the Warrant for it to go for me. And whether you will have it proved that I did come over thence, I submit to you.

L. H. Steward.

I suppose that is fully proved already, that you did come by Diep.

Managers.

We do not deny it.

L. H. Stew.

You do not stand upon it, Gentlemen, do you?

Managers.

No, no, my Lords.

L. H. Stew.

'Tis admitted to you, my Lord.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, when I went from your Lordships Bar last night, I had no thoughts of examining any Witnesss, but what I have already done: But, my Lords, since I was here, there hath something happened, about which I de∣sire Dr. Oats may be called again, (I shall give you the reason why I move it af∣terwards,) upon something I heard yesternight.

L. H. Stew.

Call Dr. Oats again.

(Who appeared and stood up.)

L. H. Steward.

My Lord, what does your Lordship call him for?

L. Stafford.

He did say, that he being a Minister of the Church of England, did seemingly go over to the Church of Rome, or some such words; I desire he may answer that first.

L. H. Steward.

What say you?

Dr. Oats.

Yes, I did say, I did but seemingly go over.

L. Stafford.

I desire to know, whether he was really a Papist, or did but pre∣tend.

Dr. Oats.

I did only pretend, I was not really one, I declare it.

L. H. Stew.

What do you make of that?

L. Stafford.

I desire to know how long Dr. Oats was in Spain.

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, I came into Spain in May, and I came home again in November.

L. H. Steward.

That is six months.

L. Stafford.

He is called Dr. Oats: I beseech your Lordships to ask him, whether he were a Doctor made at the Universities here, or abroad.

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, if your Lordships please, any matter that is before your Lordships, I will answer to it, but I hope your Lordships will not call me to ac∣count for all the Actions of my life, whatever Evidence is before your Lordships, I will justifie.

L. H. Stew.

The Doctor hath never taken it upon his Oath, that he was a Doctor, and why do you ask it?

L. Stafford.

He is called a Doctor, and I would know whether he did never declare upon his Oath, that he took the Degree at Salamanca?

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, I am not ashamed of any thing I have said or done.

I own what is entred as my Oath before your Lordships, and am ready to answer it; but I am not bound to say, what does not at all concern this business.

L. Stafford.

I say, my Lords, 'tis entred upon your Lordships Books, that he did swear at the Council, he was at Madrid with Don John of Austria; I would know of him whether he did so.

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, I would have my Lord to propose the Question to the Court of Peers.

L. H. Steward.

Have you sworn any thing of Don John of Austria?

Dr. Oats.

My Lords▪ I refer my self to the Council Book.

L. Stafford.

I beseech your Lordships, I may have that Book.

L. H. Steward.

I believe it is in the Narrative, turn to the Journal, you have that mentioned there.

To which the Clerk turned, but it could not be sound.

L. H. Stew.

If you will not acknwledge it, we must stay till the Book be brought.

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, if your Lordships please, I will repeat, as well as I can, what was said at the Council Table, but I had rather the Council Book were fetch∣ed, because I am upon my Oath; but, my Lords, I always thought the Council Book is no Record upon any man.

L. Stafford.

I desire it may be produced, or he own that he said so.

Lord High Steward.

What you said at the Council Table, you said upon your Oath, and 'tis lawful to lay it before you.

Dr. Oats.

But, if your Lordships please, as to what was said at the Council Table, if my Lord will bring any one Viva voce, to swear what was said by me there, that will make something.

L. H. Stew.

That may be material, as he says, That your Lordship should bring some body to swear he said so; for the Clerks may mistake him.

L. Stafford.

If your Lordships please that the Book may be sent for, I will make it out.

Sir W. Jones.

It could not be read if it were here.

L. H. Stew.

If the Clerks will swear what is in the Books, it may.

Sir W. Jones.

But whether the Clerks will take that upon them or no, may be Question.

Lord. High. Steward.

Go on in the mean time.

L. Stafford.

I cannot conclude with him without it.

L. H. Stew.

Where is the Council Book? For the Clerks inform me 'tis not in their custody; but the Gentlemen of the House of Commons have been at∣tended with the Book, and other Papers relating to it.

L. Stafford

In the mean time, give me leave to say something; though per∣haps

it may be nothing to the purpose; Mr. Yalden was just now going down' and Turbervill threatned to lay him by the Heels.

L. H. Stew.

If he did so, 'tis a Misdemeanor, and he must be punished for it. Call Yalden and Turbervill.

L. H. Stew.

Mr. Turbervill, Have you dared, or threatned Yalden the Witness, to lay him by the Heels?

Mr. Turbervill.

I did not speak any such words to him, Mr. Dugdale was just by me all the while.

L. Stafford.

I tell you but what he said, and what I can prove by Witness; pray call Yalden.

Mr. Turbervill.

This Gentleman, Captain Scudamore, stood by me too.

L. H. Stew.

But I ask you upon this Misdemeanor, Whether you threatned Yalden to lay him by the Heels?

Mr. Turbervill.

My Lords, I stood by Mr. Dugdale till he was gone down.

L. H. Stew.

How could he lay him by the Heels? By what Authority could he do it?

Mr. Turbervill.

I did not speak such a word, upon my Oath.

L. Stafford.

Ask Yalden, I am told he did.

L. H. Stew.

I am afraid you are misinformed, my Lord, for he could not do it, 'tis not in his power.

L. Stafford.

He threatned he would Goal him, but if you won't Examine it, I submit to you.

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, Yalden, it seems, calls us a Pack of Rogues, that give Evidence for the King; and here are Witnesses of it.

(Yalden stood up.)

L. H. Stew.

Yalden, were you threatned by Turbervill?

Yalden.

Yes, I will tell you how I was threatned, my Lords, Mr. Turbervill pulls me by the Arm, when I had given my Evidence, and asked me if I knew him, and bid me take care.

L. H. Stew.

Do you call that a threatning?

Yalden.

My Lords, I did not make this Complaint, nor did I desire it should be made; but speaking this in the Room, some body carried it to my Lord.

Mr. Turbervill.

My Lords, now he hath done, let me speak, I pray; Mr. Yalden did say in the hearing of Captain Scudamore, who is here, he had got a great many Clients here, but you, says he, have got nothing but a pack of Rogues.

Yalden.

That is a mistake.

L. H. Stew.

This is fine work. But, Gentlemen, will you call Captain Scudamore now, or will you stay till afterwards?

Sir Fr. Winn.

My Lords, Mr. Turbervill desires it may be now, and we do also desire it upon this occasion, Captain Scudamore is a man of Quality, and will

give you a true account. We did not think to have interposed in my Lord Staf∣ford's Evidence, but he having impeached our Witnesses of a Misdemeanor, we conceive it fittest to clear it at this time.

Then Captain Scudamore was sworn.

L. H. Stew.

Mr. Scudamore, what are you called for? Can you say any thing that happened between Turbervill and Yalden?

Captain Scudamore.

The Gentleman that is here, that said he was one of Grays-Inn, I do not know his Name—

L. H. Stew.

'Tis Yalden.

Captain Scudamore.

I heard a Gentleman ask him, if he came there to get Cli∣ents? And he said, I know nothing among you but Roguery.

L. Stafford.

Whereabouts did this Gentleman stand?

Captain Scudamore.

In the Passage.

Mr. Turbervill.

Here are five or six more that heard him say so.

Yalden.

That which I said, was this, That I might come hither for Practice, but I did not come hither for Roguery.

L. H. Stew.

My Lord Stafford, until such time as the Council-Book comes, which may be sent for: Will your Lordship proceed to something else?

L. Wharton.

My Lord Steward, I humbly conceive, That it was resolved in the Lords House, the day before yesterday, that no Book should be sent for out of the Court, and it was done upon the Judgment of all the Judges of England.

Yalden.

My Lords, They will not permit me to go down.

L. H. Stew.

There is a strange Quarrel between you Witnesses, and an Af∣fectation of complaining one of another. Let Mr. Yalden go down.

Sir W. Jones.

My Lords, I would only acquaint your Lordships, that the Coun∣cil-Book, that my Lord does make mention of, was in the hands of our Clerk, we did not know of it when it was first discoursed of; but now understanding that here it is, we desire it may be delivered in to any body that hath occasion for it.

L. H. Stew.

Hand it in.

(Which was done.)

L. H. Stew.

What day does your Lordship speak of?

L. Stafford.

The 28, 29, or 30. of September.

Clerk.

Then this is not the Book, for this is for January.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, Is it your Lordships pleasure I may have Pen, Ink, and Paper allowed me?

L. H. Stew.

Yes, yes, give my Lord Pen, Ink and Paper,

(which they did.)

Then the Lord High Steward looked upon the Council-Book.

L. H. Stew.

My Lord Stafford, In this Council-Book, as far as we can inform our selves by the Table of it, there is nothing at all of it; it must be the Council-Book in September.

Sir Will. Jones.

We have no other Book but that.

L. H. Stew.

Why did not your Lordship send all this while to the Council Table for any thing that was material, but give the Court the trouble to be in∣terrupted upon your Inquiries?

L. Stafford.

My Lords, you may do what you please, I did not know any such thing would have needed to be urged. I have proof enough without the book; The use I should have made of it, is this, I do appeal to some of your Lordships (you that were of the Council) I do appeal to which of you that were by, whether Dr. Oats did not say at the Council Table, he had been at Madrid, he went from Vallidolid to Madrid, and there did preach something at the Jesuits Colledge at Madrid, (what it was I cannot tell) when Don John of Austria was by.

L. H. Stew.

If any of my Lords of the Council do remember it they may Testifie.

L. Privy Seal.

My Lords, I shall tell your Lordships as much as I remember of it: Dr. Oats was examined about his Journey into Spain, and (amongst the rest) some Question hapned to be asked, whether he had seen Don John of Au∣stria, he said he had seen one that was called so, that he knew him not, but he was pointed to one that they said was Don John of Austria; that I heard.

L. Stafford.

My Lord, I thank you.

L. H. Stew.

You hear what is said, Dr. Oats.

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, suppose I did say so, I think there is no crime in it.

L. H. Stew.

'Tis not objected against you as a Crime, but as a mistake in your Oath, there was no such man there.

L. Privy Seal.

My Lords, I would not be misunderstood in the Evidence I give; I did not say that Oats said he knew him, but that he knew him not, and only was told such a man was he.

Dr. Oats.

It was made apparent, that I did not know him, because I mistook his Person.

L. Stafford.

I do stand upon it, That upon his Oath, (and I have reason to believe he did so, because I am so informed) he said it was Don John of Austria.

L. Privy Seal.

No, my Lord, Dr. Oats said he was a tall lean man, and it seems he was a little fat man.

L. Stafford.

If any man would shew him a man to counterfeit Don John of Au∣stria, he would not shew him a lean man for a fat.

L. H. Stew.

Go on, my Lord.

L. Stafford.

I shall now put your Lordships in mind that he swore, but my Memory is bad, and my Eyes much worse, that he saw me receive a Commission, and it seems he saw what it was too: Now it is strange, that amongst so many Commissions that were given, none should be extant; I desire him to shew the Commission he saw me receive.

L. H. Stew.

Would your Lordship have him shew the Commissions which he saw you receive?

L. Stafford.

I do not believe he can shew my Commission; for I am sure there was none; I desire him to shew any one of my Letters he talks of. He says, he came over, feigning to be a Papist, when he was not, and that they shewed him presently all my Letters, and now he is come to discover the Plot; I ask him, did he keep any one of my Letters?

L. H. Stew.

Have you any of any Lords Letters by you?

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, I could not keep any Letters sent to the Fathers, I had a fight of them, but none of them to my particular use.

L. Stafford.

Does he know my Hand? did he ever see it in his life?

Dr. Oats.

Yes, I do know his Hand, I believe I have a Letter of my Lords by me, but not about me, 'tis of no Concern; I'm sure I have one of my Lord Arundel's.

L. Stafford.

But he says he hath a Letter of mine; let him shew one of my Letters.

Dr. Oats.

He writes a mixt Hand, I think 'tis but an indifferent one.

L. Stafford.

So many Comissions, and so many Letters, as are spoken of, and not one to be found or produced.

L. H. Stew.

Can you send for the Letter?

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, I am not certain of that.

L. H. Stew.

Where did you see my Lord write?

Dr. Oats.

At Fenwick's, my Lords, when I carried the Letter to the Post.

L. Stafford.

How often hath he seen me at Fenwick's?

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, not above twice, if twice.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I cannot say I did not see him there, but I can say I don't know the place, nor that ever I was there.

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, will his Lordship say I never saw him at Dr. Perrots?

L. Stafford.

Who?

Dr. Oats.

My Lord Stafford.

L. Stafford.

Where did he live?

Dr. Oats.

In Dukes-street, going into Lincolns-Inn-Fields; he is the Arch-Priest of the Seculars, that is, the Principal of the Secular Clergy; and he hath the care of the English Colledge for the sending of Scholars to the Colledge. Mr. Fisher, my Lord Stafford, and Dr. Perrot were together discoursing about sending his Son thither, and Mr. Fisher would have one sent with him that was Dr. Perrot's Man.

L. Stafford.

I do profess before God, I was never at Dr. Perrot's in my whole life.

L. H. Stew.

Did not you send your Son abroad?

L. Stafford.

No, my Lords, not I.

L. H. Stew.

Had he a Servant at Dr. Perrot's to attend him?

Dr. Oats.

No, my Lords, not that I know of, I cannot say he had not.

L. Stafford.

I tell you positively, as I am a Christian, my Lords, I did not send my Son to Lisbon, he went against my Will. I told him I had an aversion to it, but said I will not lay my Commands on you not to go, but he would go, I could not help it; I told him, Do you mean to go into the Colledge? he would not tell me.

L. H. Stew.

Pray, my Lord, does not your Lordship know Dr. Perrot? Lord Stafford, Yes, my Lords, I do.

L. Stafford.

Were you never with him at his House in Duke-street.

L. Stafford.

No, my Lords, never in my life, nor saw that Fisher he speaks of, ever in my life.

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, 'tis against the Rules of that House, that any be admit∣ted of that House (if their Parents be Catholicks) without consent of their Pa∣rents.

L. Stafford.

If he be admitted there, I know it not.

Dr. Oats.

He lives there.

L. Stafford.

But I protest before God, my Lords, I asked him that Question, Will you go to the Colledge? No, says he, I will go to lie at the Bishops House; but as for Dr. Perrot, I never was at his Lodgings in my life, and I never knew where he lay; he hath been with me sometimes, but I knew not that he was a Doctor. But, my Lords, I desire I may not be ran down by these Fellows, who do not speak a word true, nor one tittle. My Lords I have Witnesses in whose House Fenwick lay. Call them and ask them if ever they knew me in their lives.

L. H. Stew.

What kind of man was he?

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, he is an ancient man he wears his own Hair.

L. H. Steward.

Is he a tall man, or a low man?

Dr. Oats.

A lusty man.

L. Stafford.

Truly, my Lords, I never was at his house since I was born.

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, I'll tell your Lordships a Circumstance, That Summer Don Francisco de Melos, the Ambassador here was sick, and I think he died of the Sickness, Dr. Perrot was his Father Confessor; I was waiting for Dr. Perrot some time, for he promised to meet me at his Lodgings, and this Gentleman the Priso∣ner at the Bar did come in there.

L. Staffo rd.

Where?

Dr. Oats.

Into Dr. Perrot's Lodging. Dr. Perrot had a Kinsman there that waited on him; and when my Lord came in, he was in haste to speak with Dr. Perrot, and he offered me half a Crown to fetch Dr. Perrot to him, and I made him this Reply, I was no Porter.

L. Stafford.

If ever I saw this man in my life since I was born, or heard of

his Name till the Plot, then I will confess my self guilty of all. Indeed, when first I heard of the Plot (they said) there was one Mr. Oats discovered it, but I did not know any such man.

Dr. Oats.

I went by another Name, and went in another Habit, and my Lord Stafford, though his memory be bad, yet it can't be so bad, but that he must re∣member something of me.

L. Stafford.

I don't remember you, I never saw your face in my life.

L. H. Steward.

You would have given him half a Crown to have fetch'd Dr. Perrot.

L. Stafford.

It seems then at that time, I took him for a poor Fellow, that I should offer him a shilling or two.

Dr. Oats.

It is like I was, but I refused your half Crown, and told you I was no Porter.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I shall give you Evidence that he was a poor Fellow, since he gives me occasion to prove it, nay, that he was so poor, that he was brought down to accept of 6 d. I will prove it by the party that gave it, now he puts me upon it: But, my Lords, this Doctor Oats says he saw some of my Letters, I desire to know what was in them; Did he take any Notes? What was in them?

L. H. Stew.

Did you when you had a sight of these Letters at St. Omers, take any Notes out of them?

Dr. Oats

What Notes I did take, if I did take any, I have not now in being, but I do not remember that I did take any. Besides, my Lords, we could keep no Papers by us, but what we communicated to our Superiours, and therefore it was still their care to look after their Papers themselves; and in that Circumstance of time, if they had known I had taken Notes out of their Papers, it would have been prejudicial to me, and indangered my life.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I infer this one thing further, upon what this Doctor Oats tells you, He did seemingly profess himself of the Catholick Religion, and I do stand upon it, that hereupon he is no competent Witness in that which he offers against me: For he being of the Church of England, (for I think he pro∣fesses himself so, and wears that Habit) I say, any man, let him be who he will in the world, Church of England man or other, that shall pretend himself to be a Papist, for what end soever it be that he so pretends, and dissembles with God Almighty, which he must do to a great height, in receiving that Sacrament, which is by your Lordships and the House of Commons declared to be gross Idolatry, is not easily to be esteemed a Witness. I appeal to your Lordships, to the House of Commons, and every body, whether such a Fellow, that will abhor his Religion, let him do it for any ends in the world, be a man to be credited; and especially ingaging in such a way, to such an height, in that which his Con∣science tells him is idolatrous, is not a perjured Fellow, and no compleat Witness? No Christian, but a Devil, and a Witness for the Devil. And I appeal to the

whole Christian World, if a Protestant of the Church of England should come to be a Servant to a Catholick and pretend himself a Papist, and were not so, whether he were fit to be countenanced; as it did once happen to me at Brussels, fore the King came in, one that was a Protestant came to be my Footman, and he professed himself afterwards to be a Catholick; and when I found he was not so, I told him what a Villain he was, and he ought to be punished severely. I detest such dissembling with God, and I think by the Laws of God and Man, and the Holy Scriptures, such a perjured man is no Witness. I am sorry I have troubled your Lordships so long. But now if you please to give me leave, my Lords, I will give you my Reasons why I called him now: when I did remember how he had dissembled with God Almighty, as I said be∣fore, I did consider with my self, sure this Dr. Oats must have been, ever since he hath returned, of a very severe, strict and sober life; for a man that hath so dis∣sembled with God, ought to shew himself of an exemplary, peaceful, pious, civil life, to testifie the truth and reality of his Repentance. But last night when I came home, and was siting by the fire side extreamly weary, my Daughter here comes in, and asks me if I had heard what had passed between Dr. Oats and the Lieutenant; how he called the Lieutenant Rascal and Goaler: sure then, said I, to my self, this is not the quiet, civil, sober man, that such a one that hath lived as he hath done, ought to be. And this is the reason I speak of it, that he should call him vile Names, Goaler and Rascal; it did not become a man of his Coat to do it: whether it was so or no, I do not know, but Mr. Lieutenant, I suppose, will satisfie your Lordships.

L. H. Steward.

What did Oats say to you, Mr. Lieutenant?

Mr. Lieuten.

My Lords I was desiring Mr. Oats that he would keep the people down, because there was a great croud; and seeing a great many people come in, he told me, they were Witnesses that were to come in: said I, I believe half of these are not Witnesses; and the door opening so often, I could keep this place in no order; so I desired they would stand away that were not Witnesses: why, says he, you are but a Goaler; then I told him, if it were not for his Coat, and I were out of this place, I would break his head. Then he called me Raskal.

L. Stafford.

My Lord Steward, I desire to know whether this be a Witness fit to be believed against any man.

L. H. Stew.

Mr. Oats, this does not become you; 'tis very ill manners in you.

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, the Lieutenant of the Tower hath the Law; and I re∣fer my self to the Law, if I have done him any wrong.

Mr. Serj. Maynard.

It did not become Mr. Lieutenant of the Tower to tell him he would break his head.

Mr. Lieutenant.

Why? if any man out of the Court, or in another Habit, should tell me I was a Goaler, I think I should not deserve to be the Kings Lieutenant, if I did not break his Head.

Mr. Serj. Maynard.

Pray tell the Court so. But yet, under favour, you ought not to threaten him for a word to break his head.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I do say this to your Lordships, a man that hath dis∣sembled with God Almighty in so high a nature, as he ackowledges himself to have done, ought to be a man of a very severe life afterwards, and not so passi∣onate and cholerick, as it seems this fellow is.

L. H. Stew.

Will your Lordship proceed?

L. Stafford.

For this man, truly, I shall say no more; I think I have said enough to make him appear a person not fit to be believed. I would only ask Stephen Dugdale a Question, if you please; 'tis but a little, I won't hold you long. I only ask, and if he deny it, I'le prove it, whether he was not a Prisoner at Stafford for Debt, when he made the first Affidavit?

L. H. Stew.

Were you a Prisoner for Debt at Stafford, when you made your first Affidavit?

Mr. Dugdale.

In the Serjeants hands I was, my Lords.

L. Staff.

For a very great Debt, my Lords, some hundreds of pounds, and he was a fellow not worth a Groat: And, my Lords, Dr. Oats says I offered him half a Crown, and he refused it. I call Ellen Rigby to prove he was so poor he begg'd for six pence.

Dr. Oats.

I will save my Lord the trouble of proving any such thing. My Lord Stafford says I was a poor man, and had not six pence in my pocket; I can make it appear to the House of Lords, that sometime since I came in upon this Discovery, I have not had two pence in my pocket, and sometimes I have not had six pence: but a mans Pȯverty is no objection against his Honesty.

L. Stafford.

Where is Ellen Rigby to prove, whether she did not give him six pence? But then, my Lords, pray ask him whether he did not swear at a for∣mer Tryal, he had spent six or seven hundred pounds more than he got?

L. H. Stew.

Did you say at a former Tryal, you were five or six hundred pound out of purse?

Dr. Oats.

My Lords, I will satisfie this House what I said; what folks write after me, I am not to justifie. But, my Lords, I had a Friend of mine presented me with 100 l. I name not his Name; but if that be questioned, he is a Peer of this House, and will justifie it. I had 100 l. for my Narrative. I had 100 l. for taking some Jesuits; which is 300 l. I had for some other Copies that I printed, a matter of 50 or 60 l. And now I can make it appear, that as to those Sums which I received in gross, I have spent them all, and more in this Service, for I have none of the money now by me.

L. Stafford.

He makes out but 350 l. and he swore he was out 700 l. but he does not swear one true tittle, nor is any whit to be believed.

Dr. Oats.

If you expect I should prove it, I can prove it now.

Managers.

Be quiet Dr. Oats, we will do you right anon.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I do not know for the present that I have any thing else to trouble your Lordships with. I remember these Gentlemen when I asked them if they had any more Evidence to give in, said No, unless I should give them some occasion; and now I desire your Lordships, if they bring any new Evidence, that I may have time to answer it.

L. H. Stew.

God forbid but you should have liberty to answer any Objection.

Sir W. Jones.

My Lords, before we go about to sum up our Evidence we shall have occasion to call some Witnesses, and that will be to fortifie what our Witnes∣ses have said, to discover what kind of Witnesses have been made use of against them, and to falsifie what my Lords Witnesses have said in some particulars. These will be the three Heads for which we desire to call Witnesses. And because (my Lords) we will not trouble you with making one intire Narration of what they can say, or to what purpose we call them before they come, we desire the favour that we may acquaint your Lordships with it, still as we call them; for that we think will be the way more clearly to be understood. My Lords, we shall begin to make good by other Witnesses, some things said by Mr. Dugdale, (for he was our first Witness, and therefore in order of time we will first begin with him.) My Lords, the Prisoner at the Bar was pleased to object—

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I would not interrupt him; but I would ask whether there were more than two heads that he proceeds upon to fortifie their own Evi∣dence, and to falsifie mine.

Sir W. Jones.

My Lords, I think we may comprehend all under those two heads: But, my Lords, you observe, one great matter my Lord did insist upon yesterday, was this. That he, it is true, hath seen Mr. Dugdale at my Lord Aston's (though by the way I must say this, my Lord at the first did not seem to know him.)—

L. Stafford.

I did not know him in his Peraiwig.

L. H. Stew.

Do not interrupt them, my Lord, for they must have the same li∣berty that you had, to go on without interruption.

Sir Will. Jones.

We must have the same freedom my Lord had. I will do his Lordship that right, he did afterwards recollect himself, and say, His Perriwig had made that alteration in him, that he did not know him. But my Lord was also pleased to say yesterday, That though he did know him, yet he looked upon him as so mean and inconsiderable a fellow, that he did purposely avoid all discourse with him; and that sometimes when he was a dry at my Lord Aston's he would not speak to him to help him, nor to call one to help him to drink. My Lord, was pleased yesterday also to deny that ever he had any Converse with him but only that one time, when indeed Mr. Dugdale did desire to make use of my Lord, that by his interposition he might have leave to go to the Foot-Race. My Lords, your Lordships very well perceive we are now going about to prove a matter most∣ly arising within my Lord Aston's Family; and what Witnesses we shall have from thence, your Lordships may easily imagine will not be very favourable to us: and if

we have not many to this point, your Lordships will take into consideration, that those who can give the fullest proof here, must be those of the Family, and the Religion of the Family. But, my Lords, we will call one or two that I believe will give you satisfaction that my Lord the Prisoner was no such stranger to Mr. Dugdale; that they have been seen together, and alone together; and that is the first thing we desire to call Witnesses to. Call Mr. Ansell and William Hanson.

Mr. Hanson was sworn.

L. H. Steward.

Where do you live? Whose Servant are you?

Mr. Hanson.

At Wilnal in Stafford shire.

L. H. Steward.

What do you ask him?

Sir Will. Jones.

I desire, if you be satisfied where he lives, that he will tell you whether he hath been at my Lord Aston's, and seen my Lord Stafford there.

L. H. Steward.

Have you seen my Lord Stafford at my Lord Aston's?

Mr. Hanson.

Yes, my Lords.

L. H. Steward.

When?

Mr. Hanson.

A little above two years ago.

L. Stafford.

Be pleased he may name the time positively.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lord Stafford is not so well versed in prosecutions of this nature, as to know that he is not to interrupt us while we are examining our Wit∣nesses.

L. H. Steward.

My Lord, your Lordship received no interruption, nor must give none.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lords, we desire this Witness may be asked, whether or no he hath seen Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Stafford at any time together.

L. H. Steward.

What say you?

Mr. Hanson.

Yes, my Lords.

L. H. Steward.

When, and where?

Mr. Hanson.

I cannot justly tell the time.

L. H. Stew.

Can you tell the place?

Mr. Hanson.

Yes, at my Lord Aston's.

L. H. Stew.

Whereabouts?

Mr. Hanson.

In my Lord Aston's Parlour.

L. H. Stew.

And were they alone?

Mr. Hanson.

Mr. Dugdale fetched me to my Lord Stafford.

L. H. Stew.

And was no body in the Parlour when Dugdale fetched you to my Lord?

Mr. Hanson.

No, my Lords, I think there was not.

L. Stafford.

He thinks there was not.

Mr. Hanson.

There was not, to my best remembrance.

Sir W. Jones.

My Lords, will you be pleased to ask him the Occasion why Dugdale fetched him to him.

Mr. Hanson.

My Lord had a mind to have a Boy,

L. H. Stew.

What was the occasion that Dugdale did come to fetch you to my Lord Stafford in the Parlour?

Mr. Hanson.

To bring the Boy, my Lords, Yong Hawkins. Mr. Dugdale fetched me and the Boy to him; it was a Boy that my Lord would have to live with him.

Sir Will. Jones.

Can you tell what time of the year it was? whether Winter or Summer as near as you can?

L. H. Stew.

Aye, What time of the year was it?

Mr. Hanson.

Indeed, my Lords, I cannot tell.

Sir Will. Jones.

I desire to ask him, whether, when he went away, he left them together?

L. H. Stew.

Did you leave them together?

Mr. Hanson.

To my best remembrance, my Lords, I did. The Boy and I went away together, and we left them at my Lord Aston's Parlour-door.

Sir Will. Jones.

Call James Ansel.

L. H. Stew.

Nay, if you have done with him, my Lord Stafford may ask him any Questions.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I shall tell you how this thing is. There was a re∣port that this Hawkins was a very good running Foot-boy; and this was spoken of at my Lord Aston▪s at Dinner or Supper, I don't know which, nay severall times about that time; it was when my Lord of Danby was Treasurer, and his Son my Lord Dunblain was much for Foot-matches, and I had a minde to have a Foot-boy to make a match with him; and I believe Dugdale at Dinner or Sup∣per did say that he was a good running Lad, and I might desire to see him, and Dugdale did bring him to me I believe into my Lord Aston's Parlour; but there was at least six or seven in the Room besides.

L. H. Stew.

My Lord Stafford, Was this at that time when your Lordship was at Tixal the 12 of September?

L. Stafford.

Pray, my Lords I desire to ask him that Question; I would know what year it was.

L. H. Stew.

He says it was above two years ago,

L. Stafford.

I profess I believe it was one or two years before I was taxed with this Plot. I did never think I should be questioned about this, or I could easily have brought witnesses that were by at that time. It is true he did come to me, but pray what time of day was it?

Mr. Hanson.

In the morning I think it was.

L. Stafford.

I profess to God, it was after Supper; as I hope to be saved, it was as we were going to bed, to the best of my remembrance.

Sir Will. Jones.

Did you come into the Parlour after Supper?

Mr. Hanson.

I am not sure what time it was.

Sir Will. Jones.

If his Lordship please to ask him any more Questions, if not, we will call another. James Ansell.

(who was sworn.)

L. H. Steward.

What is your Name?

Witness.

James Ansell.

L. H. Stew.

Where do you live?

Mr. Ansell.

At Heywood in Staffordshire.

L. H. Stew.

Did you live with my Lord Aston?

Mr. Ansell.

I have been at my Lords House at Tixal.

L. H. Stew.

But you are not of the Family?

Mr. Ansell.

No.

L. H. Stew.

How far is Heywood from Tixal?

Mr. Ansell.

A Mile.

L. H. Stew.

Have you seen my Lord Stafford at Tixal?

Mr. Ansell.

I have seen a man they called my Lord Stafford. I did not know him, but as they told me.

L. H. Stew.

Did you ever see Dugdale in the company of a man they called my Lord Stafford?

Mr. Ansell.

Two years ago I was at Tixal, and there I saw one that they said was my Lord Stafford walking with Mr. Dugdale, whom I did know.

L. H. Stew.

Where was it?

Mr. Ansell.

In the Court at Tiaxl, walking together.

L. H. Stew.

Were they alone? Was there no body else in company?

Mr. Ansell.

None that I saw; there might be more company, but I saw no more.

Sir Will. Jones.

Pray, my Lords, ask how long ago this was?

Mr. Ansell.

About Summer was two years.

Sir Will. Jones.

If his Lordship will ask him any Questions now we have done, he may; otherwise we will call another.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I have recollected my self as well as I can in so short a time, and all I can say is, some of my Servants were by, I suppose; and I do as∣sure your Lordships, the other business was above three years ago; so the fellow does not know what he does say.

L. H. Stew.

Will you ask him any Questions?

L. Stafford.

Pray ask him how long he saw me in the Court with Dugdale.

L. H. Stew.

How long was it?

Mr. Ansell.

I cannot tell. I did but walk through the Court: I came to speak with Mr. Dugdale, and he was with my Lord.

L. Stafford.

Did he hear us discourse, or any word we said?

Mr. Ansell.

No, I did not.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lords, if you please, before Ansell go away, we would ask him a Question to another point; and that is, For what reason Dugdale was se∣cured, whether he went away for Debt or no?

L. H. Stew.

Do you know wherefore Dugdale was secured, or why he went from my Lord Astons.

Mr. Ansell.

I can't tell why he went away; whether for fear of the Plot, or no, I can't tell.

Sir VV. Jones.

What discourse was between you and Dugdale about it?

Mr. Ansell.

Where? There was a discourse at Stafford when he was there.

Sir VV. Jones.

But before he went away?

Mr. Ansell.

I came to my Lord Aston's one day, and told Mr. Dugdale I heard say he was concerned in the Plot; for I told him I was amongst some people, and they say you are concerned in the Plot. And this was about a fortnight after the News was hot in our Country.

L. H. Stew.

What said he?

Mr. Ansell.

He laughed at it, and said, God blast him if he knew any thing of it.

L. Stafford.

So he denied it then.

Sir VV. Jones.

Pray, Sir, at that time did he say he knew any thing about my Lord Aston, and why my Lord Aston did use him ill?

Then my Lord Stafford objected Mr. Dugdale was too near the VVitness, and desired he might go down; and it was ordered accordingly.

Sir Fr. VVin.

My Lords, we would ask this man what does he know of Dug∣dale's concealing himself after he had heard of the discourse about the Plot.

Mr. Ansell.

I know not that, my Lords; he was fearful of coming in company: what his discourse was, I do not know.

Sir VV. Jones.

My Lords, now if it please your Lordships, we will go to a∣nother particular. Yor Lordships will please to remember, that yesterday there were two Witnesses called by my Lord Stafford, that is Sambidge and Philips; Sambidge was the old Gentleman that was deaf, and a little passionate too, be∣cause he was once summoned to Litchfield Court. Mr. Philips was the Minister of Tixal. And both these did testifie, That whereas Mr. Dugdale had sworn at a former Tryal, that he did give notice before them of the death of Sir Edmunbury Godfrey upon Monday, which (as I take it) was the 14. of October, there was no such notice given in their presence. Mr. Dugdale did affirm, they were by, and that he gave notice before them & others. This was made use of by my Lord to invalidate the Testimony of Mr. Dugdale, that he should go and affirm at a for∣mer Tryal, that he did give notice of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey with∣in two days after he was killed, before any one knew of it; and Dugdale must needs know it from the Jesuits: and both of these Gentlemen being now in Court, do deny that they heard of it at that time. My Lords, we shall prove to you here, that he did give notice of it at that time, and that they were both pre∣sent. For Mr. Sambidge, it is not so strange he should not observe it, he was very deaf, and he could hardly hear yesterday; and as he was deaf, so he was ve∣ry passionate. As for Mr. Philips, I cannot say that as to him, but perhaps he

cannot at that distance of time remember; but we will prove by undeniable Wit∣nesses, that notice was given that Munday, and that these persons were by when it was given.

Sir Fran. Winn.

This Witness we use to another purpose besides this; but we will ask him only to this now.

L. Stafford.

I desire the Witnesses may stand by themselves.

L. H. Stew.

Let them take care that there be but one Witness at a time, and that no body approach them while they are giving their Testimony.

Sir Will. Jones.

We did not make the like desire as to my Lords Witnesses.

L. Stafford.

In troth you might with all my heart, if you would.

Sir Will. Jones.

It may be so; but we did not fear them so much. Swear Wil∣liam Goldsmith.

(which was done.)

Sir Will. Jones.

I would begin with James Ansell.

(who appeared and stood up again.)

Sir Fr. Winn.

If your Lordships please, we would ask him what he knows of a discourse about the Justice of Peace's death; to tell the time, and what it was that was said. We only ask general Questions.

L. H. Stew.

What discourse did you hear of the murder of a Justice of Peace, and when?

Mr. Ansell.

My Lords, I heard it at Tixal.

L. H. Stew.

When did you hear it first?

Mr. Ansell.

The 14. of October.

L. H. Steward.

Who did you hear it from?

Mr. Ansell.

From Mr. Dugdale.

L. H. Stew.

The Letter was dated the 12. Where did you hear of it?

Mr. Ansell.

It was at one Elds House, an Alehouse in Tixal.

L. H. Steward.

Where?

Mr. Ansell.

At an Alehouse hard by my Lords.

L. H. Stew.

Who was by?

Mr. Ansell.

When that was spoken, there was I, and VVilliam Hanson, and Mr. Sambidge, and Mr. Philips.

L. H. Stew.

Did Dugdale speak with them at that time?

Mr. Ansell.

Yes, he was with them at that time, but he spoke with me at the Parlor; for he sent for me into the Parlor.

L. H. Stew.

Then at the same time he spake it to you, and they were in the House.

Mr. Ansell.

Yes, he came from them to me into the Parlor, and went to them again.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lords, I hear him speak to the day of the Month; if you please to ask him, if he can tell what day of the Week it was?

Mr. Ansell.

It was on a Munday.

L. H. Stew.

That is right, the Letter was dated on Saturday the 12. of October.

Sir Fr. Winn.

I would ask him, whether afterwards he came into the Room where Mr. Philips the Parson was?

Mr. Ansell.

Yes.

Sir Fr. Winn.

Was there any discouse after you came in, about the Death of •• Justice of Peace?

Mr. Ansell.

I cannot tell that.

L. H. Stew.

Will you please to ask him any thing, my Lord?

L. Staff.

Indeed, my Lords, he says nothing concerning me; therefore I say only this, I desire to know, if he can tell, what time of day it was?

Mr. Ansell.

It was the Forenoon.

Sir W. Jones.

Then call Will. Hanson again.

(who appeared.)

Sir Fr. Winn.

We call him to the same Question. Do you declare to my Lords what you know of Mr. Dugdale's acquainting you with the Death of a Justice of Peace, and when it was.

Mr. Hanson.

I heard Mr. Dugdale say at Old Elds house at Tixal, There was a Justice of Peace murdered, that lived at Westminster.

L. H. Steward

When did he tell you so?

Mr. Hanson.

The day that I went to run the Race, the 14. of October.

Sir Fr. Winn.

Can you remember what day of the week it was?

Mr. Hanson.

It was Munday.

L. H. Steward.

Was it the Forenoon or Afternoon?

Mr. Hanson.

The Forenoon.

L. H. Stew.

What Company was in the house when he told you of it?

M. Hanson.

Old Mr. Sambidge, and Mr. Philips the Parson of Tixall.

L. H. Steward.

Were they in the House at that time?

Mr. Hanson.

Yes.

L. H. Stew.

Were they by when the discourse was?

Mr. Hanson.

Mr, Sambidge was going to drink a Bottle of Ale, as he said, at my Lords Bowling Green; and for a while he sits down, and presently Mr. Phi∣lips comes in and sits down, and Mr. Dugdale came out of the Parlour into the Room where we were come; said I, What News? said he, They say there is a Justice of Peace murdered at Westminster.

Sir Fr. Winn.

Was Philips in the Room?

Mr. Hanson.

Yes, he hath forgot it, but he was there.

L. H. Steward.

Did Philips hear it?

Mr. Hanson.

He might have heard it if he would.

L. H. Stew.

Had you any discourse with Philips about this since?

Mr. Hanson.

No, my Lords.

Sir Fr. VVinn.

He is positive both as to the day of the month, and as to the week, and that both of them were present.

Sir W. Jones.

My Lords, ••e shall prove to you now, That the Post which comes out of London on Saturday, comes to this place on Munday morning; and those which goes out of Tuesday, come there on Thursday morning; and the Post which goes out of London on Thursday, comes to this place on Saturday morning.

L. Stafford.

He says the Post comes such and such days, I own it, and in the morning too.

Sir Will. Jones.

Then I go on, my Lords, to another point, which will be a farther Confirmation of the matter. For, my Lords, we will prove to you, and that by men of Quality, that the noise of the Murder was in that Countrey the Wednesday and Thursday following the Murder. Your Lordships please to ob∣serve, Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was killed the Twelfth of October; he was found the Thursday following, which was, (as I take it) the 16. or 17. of October. We will prove now, that the noise and knowledge of the Murder was in the Countrey about Tixal, before he was found here near London. Now we only bring this as a Confirmation of this matter, that it was revealed at the Alehouse, and so it went about the Countrey. And for this we call Edward Birch Esquire, and John Turton Esquire.

Sir Fr. VVinn.

Before we examine them, I would state the time: Sir Edmund∣bury Godfrey was missing on Saturday, which was the 12. of October; his Murder was not discovered till Thursday. We call these persons to a double purpose; the one to fortifie what our Witnesses have said, and the other to shew, that this man was dispatched by these Mens Confederates, because they knew it so soon; which could not have been, but that they were in the Conspiracy themselves.

L. Staff.

I desire only that he may say whether he means me among the rest.

Sir Fr. Winn.

My Lord, I will do you no wrong, I speak of those at Tixal.

(Then Mr. Birch was sworn.)

L. H. Steward.

When did you hear of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey, Mr. Birch?

Mr. Birch.

My Lords, I did not hear any thing of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey, till the Saturday-Post; but I presume that which these Gentlemen call me for, is this: I did hear before Thursday, I think Tuesday was the first day, that there was a Justice of Peace of Middlesex killed, and it was thought the Papists murdered him; and this on Tuesday and Wednesday was all over the Countrey, that is, Tuesday after his death: for I'll tell your Lordships how I came to take notice of it; for hearing such a report in the Countrey, I did not so much take notice of it, but being at the Kings Bench Bar, at the Tryal of Green, Berry and Hill, for the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey, I found upon the Evidence that the Body was not found till the Thursday after he was killed; that made me recollect my self as to what I had heard in the Countrey: and as I stood at the Bar, I told several Gentlemen that I did perfectly remember, before Thursday it was

discoursed of in the Countrey by several Gentlemen where I lived.

Sir Will. Jones.

Call John Turton Esquire.

Sir Fr. Winn.

Some of my Lords here, I perceive, desire he should be asked a more particular Question.

L. H. Steward.

I desire to ask him this: You heard of it you say on Tuesday, that a Justice of Peace of Middlesex was killed; I desire to know who you heard it from.

Mr. Birch.

Truly, my Lords, I can't tell. For I'll tell your Lordships, I have some certain days that I constantly appoint to be at home in, when people come about business to me. Among these people, several came that asked me what news I had from London. I told them, I had received a Letter or two by the Post, and I shewed them those Letters, there was little or nothing in them. Thereupon they asked me if I did not hear of a Justice of Middlesex that was killed, No, said I. How come you to hear it, says one, I come through Cank, (which is within half a mile of mine own house) and as I came through, there came a person from Hey∣wood, that said 'tis all the news about Tixal and Heywood, and that part of the Countrey. And this was said to me in my own House.

Sir Fr. Winn.

How far is Heywood from Tixal?

Mr. Birch.

About a mile.

Sir Fr. Winn.

Now, my Lords, I would ask Mr. Turton to the fame business.

(Mr. Turton was sworn.)

L. H. Stew.

Mr. Turton, pray hear: When did you first hear in Staffordshire of the death of a Justice of Peace of Middlesex?

Mr. Turton.

My Lords, there are two Races in that Countrey, at a place near Lichfield, and they are about the middle of October; the one that year was the 15. the other the 18. the one the Tuesday, and the other the Friday. I was at both of them; and one of the days, which I cannot be positive in, there was one Mr. Whitehall, a Justice of Peace in Staffordshire, called me from the company, and de∣sired to speak with me by my self. Said he, Do you hear any news? No, said I. Do you hear nothing, said he, of a Justice of Peace that is murdered? (I then had not heard of Sir Edmundbury Godfreys being missing.) No, says he, don't you hear he is murdered? Do you know him? Yes, said I, how do you hear it? says he, 'tis a report about us; but I did not then believe it; but the next Post-day, which was Munday, I did hear it; it was either Tuesday or Friday, one of those days.

Sir Will. Jones.

If it were either one or 'tother, 'tis as strange, and the Evidence as strong; for his Body was not found till Thursday.

Sir Fr. VVin.

And will your Lordships please to observe, that by that time the report had got the name of Godfrey too, when at that same time we in London did not know what was become of him.

Mr. Turton.

He asked me if I knew Sir Edmundbury Godfrey: said he, I hear he was an active Justice of the Peace against the Papists; and he made this infe∣rence,

We had need have a care what we do, for we shall be all sacrificed.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lords, will your Lordships be pleased to observe, that yesterday there was some Witnesses called to disparage Mr. Dugdale. And the first man as I can remember, was a very substantial Gentleman, called Mr. Robin∣son; I think he was not able to give an account of his Employment, but he was a Gentleman that lived upon his Money; I remember those were his words. My Lords, we shall call (without telling you what they will say) some Witnesses to prove the Condition of this Gentleman, what Reputation he is of, and what is his Conversation. And we first call my Lady Gerard.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, pray give me leave to say one word,—but 'tis no great matter, 'tis not worth the speaking.

L. H. Stew.

What can you say, my Lord?

L. Stafford.

It was only a thought of my own, not worth troubling your Lord∣ships with.

(Then the Lady Gerard appeared, and was sworn.)

L. H. Stew.

Does your Ladyship know one William Robinson?

Lady Gerard.

No, my Lords.

Sir W. Jones.

He hath several Names, we desire he may be called.

L. H. Steward.

Call Robinson the Upholsterer.

(He was called, but appeared not.)

Sir W. Jones.

I perceive we mistake one Lady for another. We desire Mr. Booth, a Member of the House of Commons, may be Sworn.

(VVhich was done in his place.)

L. H. Steward.

My Lord Stafford, send for Robinson your Witness.

L. Stafford.

I believe he is here; but if he be not, one that belongs to me I have sent to see for him; whether he be a good or a bad Witness, I do not know personally.

Sir VV. Jones.

Mr. Booth knows him very well, he saw him yesterday, and so we may venture to ask him the Question.

L. H. Steward.

Did you see Robinson the Witness yesterday?

Mr. Booth.

Yes, my Lords, I did.

L. H. Stew.

Do you know him?

Mr. Booth.

My Lords, I do know him very well, though I have not seen him often: for indeed, my Lords, he behaved himself so the first time that I saw him, that I believe I shall never forget him. My Lords, I am better acquainted with his Character than his Person, though I know the man very well; and truly the first time that ever I was in his company, he gave me no incouragement ever to desire it again; for if you please, I'le tell you how I came to know him. He told your Lordships that he came into Cheshire at a Cocking; it was at that time that I saw him, for upon the Sunday after the Cocking, I was invited to a Neighbours, about two miles from home. We were set down to Dinner, and we had not sat

long; but this man comes into the Room where we were; there was an empty place at the lower end of the Table, and he sits him down, and began a discourse to ridicule the Lords day, in such a manner as I never heard the like. And the rest of his discourse was full of a great deal of Contempt of God Almighty, and all that was sacred. All his discourse at Dinner was very prophane. It was not in mine own House; and because it was not taken notice of by the Master of the House, and he coming under the protection of a young Gentleman, I did not what else I should, for I should have made him hold his tongue, or have used it to better purpose. The whole of his discourse was so Atheistical and prophane, that I never heard the like in my life. When dinner was done, he used a great many intice∣ments to draw the Company into play, by asking what would they say if they should see such and such things to be done; and at length he pulls out a great many Dice out of his pocket, and behaves himself in that manner, as people do that would draw in others to play; and they that had better skill in it than I, said that they were all false. When I saw this, I desired him to leave our Room, or to forbear; for, said I, if this be the entertaintment of the day, I must leave the Company: then they commanded him to desist. This is all that I do know of my own knowledge. But I shall acquaint you what I believe, for I have heard it from very considerable persons, whom I dare credit; for the man run much in my mind, because I never saw so ill a man in my life. Coming home, I was speak∣ing to some of my Family: says I, Yonder I met with the strangest fellow that I ever saw in my days, he is fitter to be hanged than any thing else. Oh, Sir, said they, there is such a fellow hath cheated I know not how many at the Town where the Cocking was. The next day, I think it was, or shortly after, I had occasion to go to that Town; and many people came and complained to me of his Cheats, to a very great degree. They asked me what they should do: said I, you have nothing to do, but indite him for a Cheat. Why, said they, will you take no course with him? Said I, What course can I take? I am turned out of the Commission of the Peace, else I know enough to bind him to the good behaviour. After this I had occasion to go into Lancashire, and there I found he was better known than trust∣ed. There were very loud Complains against him, and some would have given Twenty pound to meet with him. I heard afterwards, he went into Staffordshire, and he changed his Name where ever he went: but he soon discovered himself, and all thereabouts he goes for a notorious Cheat. This is all I can say of him.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, Be pleased to give me leave to say one word: I assure you, if I had thought this man had been such a fellow as now he proves, I would not have brought him before you. I never knew what he was in my life, nor heard of his Name till Saturday last.

L. H. Stew.

It may be so, my Lord. But your Lordship must take notice, that this is the man that gave the most important Evidence, that Dugdale should corrupt him to swear against you for money.

L. Stafford.

Give me leave to observe upon that, my Lords, That if Dugdale knew him to be a cheating fellow, he might think him the liker to take money to forfwear himself.

Sir Will▪ Jones.

My Lords, we shall not reply now, but observe anon, how this cheating fellow comes to swear for my Lord at this time. But we desire an Ho∣nourable Peer of this House may give some account of him, and that is, the Noble Lord the Earl of Maclesfeld; I think he may be known to your Lordships.

Then the Earl of Maclesfeld stood up.

L. H. Stew.

Pardon me, my good Lord, my Lord must be sworn.

E. of Maclesfeld.

Before I am sworn, I would know of your Lordships whe∣ther I should be sworn or no; for your Lordship shall not make me be sworn, un∣less my Lords say I should.

L. H. Stew.

I would not offer it, if there were any colour of doubt in it.

(Then my Lord was sworn.)

E. of Maclesfeld.

My Lords, I have nothing to say against this man but what he said to me, and before a Justice of Peace too; for I did take this man when he had run away from my Lord Gerard. He had cheated many of his Servants; I catched him on the way running to play his tricks somewhere else, and I inter∣cepted him; but though I was a Justice of Peace there, yet because it was in a manner my own case, I would not commit him, till I had carried him before ano∣ther Justice of Peace. So the man comes up to me, says he, My Lord, have you a mind to have your Son-in-law bubbled? I have been only teaching him how to avoid being cheated: I acknowledge my self to be a Cheat, and I would teach him to avoid them. I am going now into Staffordshire, and that was all I intend∣ed to his Lordship. I am a Rogue I confess it. And upon this a Justice of Peace comes in, and while they were examining of him, we bid some that were by to search him, and they found in his pocket false Dice; and truly the Justice nor I did not know whether they were true or false. Says he, You don't know what to do with these, but I do. This is all I can say; but in all the three Counties of Staf∣fordshire, Cheshire, and Lancashire, there are several men that I see here, that know his Life better than I do; for 'tis his common practice: and I believe, my Lords, the Judges must know him, for it was his common practice at all Assizes and great Meetings to play these pranks.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lords, we will not trouble your Lordships any further as to Robinson: if he were here, perhaps my Lady would know him; but having two such Witnesses, I think we need not trouble our selves nor you any more about him.

L. H. Stew.

Have you done with my Lady Gerard?

Sir Will. Jones.

Yes, and we beg her pardon for this trouble. My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember, there was one Holt was produced as a Witness by my Lord Stafford; and your Lordships, when you look on your Notes, will remember, he testified to this purpose, That Dugdale sent an Horse

for him to Stafford-Town; which Horse brought him to the Star-Inne, and there Dugdale did offer him Forty pounds to swear, That one Mr. Moor carried away Evers the Jesuit, My Lords, we will call some Witnesses to this Mr. Holt; you will find him to be something akin to Mr. Robinson, and, as we suppose, of nothing a better Reputation than he. The Witnesses will give you an account of his pranks. Call Sampson Rawlins and Lander.

Rawlins stood up, and was sworn.

L. H. Stew.

What is your Name?

VVitness.

Sampson Rawlins.

L. H. Stew.

What do you ask him?

Sir William Jones.

We desire▪ to ask him if he knows Samuel Holt the Black∣smith.

L. H. Stew.

Do you know Holt?

Rawlins.

Yes.

Sir Fr. Winn.

Acquaint my Lords what Reputation he is of, where he lives, and what he is.

Rawlins.

He is counted to be a very lewd loose fellow.

L. H. Stew.

Why so?

Sir Will. Jones.

What hath he done?

Rawlins.

He is counted a drunken lewd fellow.

Sir Will. Jones.

Is he of an ill Reputation in the Countrey where he lives?

Rawlins.

Yes, he is so.

L. H. Stew.

For what?

Rawlins.

'Tis said in the Town he keeps another mans wife.

Sir Will. Jones

Is there any other fault he hath?

Rawlins.

He said there were none but Rogues would take Mr. Dugdale's part; whereas I never knew any harm by Mr. Dugdale, and I have known him this four∣teen or fifteen years: I dealt with him, I was Taylor to the Family, and he ever paid me very honestly and well.

Sir VV. Jones.

Have you heard of Mr. Holt any other ill thing besides what you speak of?

Rawlins.

He broke open my Lord Aston's Wine-celler, and stole several bot∣tles of Wine, wherefore my Lord Aston bid Mr. Dugdale send him to the Goal: but he curryed favour with Mr. Dugdale, and so kept in with him, that he afterwards begged for him of my Lord to forgive him. And now he comes to Evidence against Mr. Dugdale, that was his sure stedfast friend, and saved him from the Goal.

L. Stafford.

I would ask this Witness a Question.—

Rawlins.

And because I took Mr. Dugdale's part, saying, he was an honest man (and he was so to me and all others, as far as ever I heard) he met me and would have murdered me.

L. H. Steward.

When was this?

Rawlins.

Since last Term, when I was up here. And likewise Sawyer took a pot, and would have dong'd my brains out.

Sir Fr. Winn.

My Lords, I think this man was summoned as a Witness, to attend at my Lord Aston's Tryal. What occasion brought you to London at that time?

Rawlins.

I was subpoena'd up. And when I came home to my Wife and Chil∣dren, they grosly abused me, and said I was a Rogue, because I came up upon His Majesties Service.

L. Stafford.

Pray, my Lords, ask him whether Holt was my Lord Aston's Ser∣vant or no.

L. H. Stew.

Was Holt a Servant to my Lord Aston?

Rawlins.

He was a Smith hard by his Gate, and he worked to the Family.

L. H. Stew.

Were you subpoena'd up to the Tryal of my Lord Aston?

Rawlins.

Yes.

L. H. Steward.

And it was for coming to that Tryal he offered to murder you?

Rawlins.

Yes, I have several Witnesses of it. And by the blow that Thomas Sawyer gave me, for a good while I could not lay my head on the Pillow.

Sir Will. Jones.

Call Thomas Launder, (but he did not appear, being gone a∣way sick.)

Sir Will. Jones.

Because we would not lose your Lordships time, seeing the man we call for, is gone away sick, we will call a Witness as to another of my Lords Witnesses, John Morral. Call Thomas Thorne.

(Who was sworn.)

Sir Fran. Winn.

My Lords, if that other man come by and by, we hope your Lordships will give us leave to ask him a Question, to the point which we are now gone over. But my Lord Stafford did produce one John Morral a Barber that lived at Ridgley, who said, that money was offered him to swear against Sir James Symons, and Mr. Howard, and others. We call this Witness to give your Lord∣ships an account what this Morral is, and how he hath behaved himself in this business.

Sir W. Jones.

What do you say about John Morral? Do you know him?

Thorne.

Yes.

L. H. Stew.

What do you know of him?

Thorne.

I know he is a man that use to come often to my Lord Aston's to Tixal, to trim him, he is a poor fellow that walks up and down the Country, and hath little or nothing to live on.

L. H. Stew.

Is he poor and needy?

Thorne.

Yes, he hath been sued for money, and I have been contributory to keep him out of Prison.

Sir W. Jones.

I ask you in general, is he of a good or bad Reputation?

Thorne.

Indifferent.

Sir Will. Jones.

'Tis modestly said. My Lords, your Lordships have heard what kind of Witnesses have been brought against us. For two of them, you have had particular matters; for a third, our Witness speaks modestly, that he is a man of indifferent Reputation. But now, my Lords, we must prove what endea∣vours have been used to get other Witnesses against our Witnesses; and for that. I desire to call one Simon VVright, to tell your Lordships what hath been offered him to swear against Dugdale, and by whom.

(VVright stood up and was sworn.)

Mr. Foley.

My Lords, we desire this Witness would give your Lordships some account, what endeavours have been used by offers of money, or otherwise, to make him swear against Dugdale, and by whom.

L. H. Stew.

Hath any body endeavoured to perswade you to swear against Dugdale?

VVright.

Yes, my Lords.

L. H. Steward.

Tell your whole story, who it was, and what was offered you.

VVright.

The first time I was employed was presently after the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey; and it was by one Mr. Plessington, that was in custody about that matter. And he sent me on Sunday morning, to the Marquess of VVinchesters, to desire him, to consider what a charge he lay at. And my Lord did send him word, he could not expect to be discharged so soon. The Tuesday after he was discharged. And afterwards coming unto me, I told him, I was glad he had so good friends to get out so soon. He told me, were I in the same condition, I should have as good or better. Whereupon Mr. Plessington and I were as good friends as any about the Town. I was his Barber, and Barber to Mr. Dugdale, and we were all great cronies. And Plessington told me, if I could find a way to take off his Evidence, or destroy him, I should have seven hundred pounds. I went to inquire out where I might have a security for the Money. And Mr. Reeves, an Apothecary in Chancery-lane, did profer me his Note, and so did Mr. Dewy the Scrivener. But I did not, nor had the Money. And several times, particularly at the Tryal of Mrs. Price, and Mr. Tasborough, they would have had me sworn quite blank, That he would have hired me to have sworn against them. And afterwards they would have had me own I was forsworn, and they would get me a Pardon.

L. H. Stew.

What had you sworn?

VVright.

What I heard Mrs. Price say at the Horse-shoe in Chancery-lane, as to the blasting of Dugdale, as may be seen in the Tryal.

L. H. Stew.

Who offered you that Seven hundred pounds?

VVright.

My Lord Bellasis's Steward.

L. H. Stew.

What is his Name?

Wright.

Plessington.

Sir Fr. Winn.

My Lords, I think he says he was to swear against Mr. Dugdale, I desire he would explain himself more particularly, and tell who it was that offered him any money to swear against Dugdale?

VVright.

Mr. Plessington, my Lords. And since the Tryall of Mrs. Price, they did persuade me to write a Paper for the blasting the reputation of Dugdale, and to shake his credit by it. And that they carried to Mr. Drayton, and Sir James Symons, and they being satisfied, would have me write again to those Gentlemen, and they framed a Letter for me to write. And thereupon Mr. Longmore (I know the Gentleman if I see him again) told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise; and if I would stand by it, I should be an happy man.

L. H. Steward.

What had you said in that Paper?

VVright.

I had said according as they directed me, that Mr. Dugdale, would have given me money to swear against Sir James Symons, and Mr. Gerard.

L. H. Steward.

Did you swear that?

VVright.

No, I did not, but I was to have done it.

L. H. Steward.

How came it to pass you did not agree with them?

VVright.

My Lords, I have had Four pounds in hand, and that I had by reason poverty came upon me. And my Lord Bellasis's Steward came and lay with me, and spent Twenty shillings upon me; but finding that I was not absolutely true to them, nor like to go through, they distrusted me; and I borrowed an Horse of Captain Chetwin, and got down into the Country, where I have been since July last, till I was fetch'd up by a Messenger to come and give Evidence for the King. And there I received a Letter from my Lord Aston's Agent, That if I would call at Stafford and come up with my Lords Witnesses they would bear my charges up to London. I have the Letter in my Pocket.

L. Stafford.

If it please you, he may shew the Letter,

(which he did.)

Clerke.

This for Simon Wright, a Barber at _____ _____ deliver with care. Subscribed, Your Loving Friend _____ _____ Abnett.

Symon Wright,

I Have just now received a Letter from the Lord Stafford, wherein my Lord men∣tioned Wright to be one of his VVitnesses, and desired me forthwith, to give Wright notice, That if possible, he should be at London on Saturday night next, his Tryal be∣ing to be on the Tuesday after; therefore if he pleased to come to him, he should give him Money to bear his charges up, and he should come up with my Lords VVitnesses.

Abnett.

(This is the substance of the Letter as it was taken.)

Sir W. Jones.

I presume your Lordships will be pleased to take notice, he was intended a Witness for my Lord, and it was supposed then that he was able to say something, but he was not produced by my Lord yesterday.

L. Stafford.

Pray, my Lords, give me leave, as to this Witness, I desire if you please, I may have time to prove something against this man till to morrow. I have enough against him.

Mr. Serj. Maynard.

You will find another Witness, I suppose, by that time.

L. Stafford.

No, I will not find him, I have him already, I have enough against this Fellow.

L. H. Stew.

You shall have time to say what you will, my Lord.

Mr. Serj. Maynard.

I would my Lord would name his Witness.

L. Stafford.

I will name him to you since you ask it, 'tis Dodd, he knows what I mean well enough.

VVright.

I don't know him, my Lord, I'le assure you.

Sir VV. Jones.

My Lords, We will go on now to another matter. My Lord Stafford was pleased to object, That Mr. Dugdale did talk much of Letters, and proceedings, but was able to shew none of them. My Lords, we will give an account how that comes about. Mr. Dugdale as in part hath been proved already, was apprehensive of being accused for the Plot; nay I think we shall prove, he was afraid he had been in the Proclamation against those Traytors and Jesuits that were fled; We shall prove, that Mr. Dugdale to secure himself, and his then friends (for he was not then come over to make any discovery) did burn a great many Letters and Papers that did relate to those proceedings, and did not leave any thing remaining, hoping thereby to prevent a discovery. We will call Wit∣nesses that were by when it was done, and I think that will be some answer to this objection. Call Elizabeth Eld, and Anne Eld.

Elizabeth Eld sworn.

Sir Fr. VVinn.

My Lords, if your Lordships please, we would ask her this ge∣neral Question, What she knows of Mr. Dugdale's burning a great many Letters and Papers, at what place, and about what time.

Elizabeth Eld.

I cannot possibly say to the time, I burnt some Writings for him when he went away, he desired me to burn them, he did not tell me what Writings they were. He said, the times were troublesome, and if he should be sick upon the Road where he was going, he would not have all his Papers seen, but he desired me to burn them. And I took and burnt them all but one Book; and my Sister asked if that Book should be burnt, he said, no, there was nothing of Treason in it; I asked him if there were any thing of Treason in the others, and he said, Do you think there was?

Sir VV. Jones.

How long was this before he went away?

Elizabeth Eld.

That morning when he went away.

Sir W. Jones.

How many Papers were there?

Elizabeth Eld.

I cannot say how many.

Sir Will. Jones.

I do not ask you the number, but the quantity, was there a bushel?

Elizabeth Eld.

I cannot say, they were roll'd up, and put in his Pockets and his Breeches.

L. H. Steward.

Were they Parchments or Papers?

Elizabeth Eld.

They were Papers.

L. H. Steward.

Were they Letters?

Elizabeth Eld.

I did not see what they were, but they were wrapt up together, they might be the Accompts of the House for what I know.

Sir Fr. Winn.

But she says, as I take it, that Mr. Dugdale said there was Trea∣son in them.

Elizabeth Eld.

No, he said, Did I think there was? He said, it was no matter for burning that little Book, there was no Treason in that, and when I asked him if there was any in the others, he said, Do you think there was?

L. H. Steward.

Was it one or two bundles?

Elizabeth Eld.

There were several bundles, they were not tyed up, but taken in handfuls and thrown into the fire.

Mr. Foley.

If my Lord Stafford will ask her no Question, we will call up ano∣ther.

Elizabeth Eld.

My Lords, I did see Mr. Dugdale take a glass of Cyder, and I heard him say, and wish it might be his Damnation, and he might sink in the place where he stood, if he knew any thing of the Plot.

Sir W. Jones.

I pray what Religion are you of? I don't ask you to disparage you.

Elizabeth Eld.

A Roman Catholick.

L. H. Steward.

When was it that he said that?

Elizabeth Eld.

When he was in Staffordshire.

Anne Eld was then sworn.

Mr. Foley.

Tell my Lords what you know of any Papers that were burnt by Mr. Dugdale, or by his direction, and at what time.

Anne Eld.

Mr. Dugdale came to my Fathers house over night, and the next morning (before he went away) he brought a great many Papers he had in his Breeches, and in his Pockets, bundled together, and he desired us to burn them in the flame of a Candle.

L. H. Stew.

Why did he desire you to burn them?

Anne Eld.

He said, the times were troublesome, and being to travel, he was to go to diverse places, and if he were taken, people would think him a Plotter, hav∣ing all those Papers about him.

L. H. Stew.

Did he burn the Book at that time?

Anne Eld.

No.

L. H. Stew.

Why not?

Anne Eld.

I found that Book, and asked him if that should be burnt, he said, no' lay that by, it may do good seven years hence, there is no Treason in it; says my Sister to him, Is there any Treason in the rest? says he, Do you think there is? that was all.

Sir Will. Jones.

Not to trouble you longer (my Lords) upon this, your Lord∣ships will be pleased to remember, yesterday my Lord Stafford was pleased to of∣fer by way of Evidence, as if Mr. Dugdale was a man of an ill Reputation in these particulars, That he had defrauded my Lord Aston, that he was a mean man, run in arrear to my Lord; and that being in necessity, he became a fit instrument to give false Evidence. We shall shew, That Mr. Dugdale was a man of Estate; that both before, and since he came away from my Lord Aston, he hath made it his business to desire my Lord to come to Accompt; that he hath pressed him, and that he does believe, and hath reason so to believe, that there is Money com∣ing from my Lord Aston to him, and that a considerable sum. Now, my Lords, if we shall make it appear, that he hath made it his business to come to Accompt with my Lord, I hope it will not be supposed that he is afraid of it, or so needy, or so mean. For this we call Michael Noble and Stephen Colledge.

(Michael Noble sworn.)

Sir John Trevor.

What do you know of Mr. Dugdale, and my Lord Aston?

Mr. Noble.

My Lords, I can say little or nothing as to Mr. Dugdale, for that I have never been acquainted with him, but since the Plot, and he came to be an Evidence; but Mr. Dugdale desired me to assist him as much as I could, to make up his Accompts with my Lord Aston. And we were twice at the Tower, one time we spoke with my Lord with great difficulty, another time we could not see him. There were three Books of Accompt, two my Lord would let us see, but the third, wherein all the Discharges were, as Mr. Dugdale said, he would never let us see, that is all I can say.

Then Stephen Colledge was sworn.

L. H. Stew.

What is your Name?

Witness.

Stephen Colledge.

Sir Will. Jones.

Declare to my Lords, what you know concerning Mr. Dug∣dale's pressing my Lord Aston to accompt with him.

Mr. Colledge.

In January last, I went along with Mr. Dugdale, at his request, to the Tower, with one Mr. Noble a Barrester of the Temple, and one Mr. Boson of Lyons-Inn, in order to the making up Accompts between Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Aston; for he told me he was going thither for that end: When we came thither, we met with one Captain Hawley, who belongs to the Lieutenant of the Tower, and we desired him to go to my Lord Aston, and tell him, Mr. Dug∣dale was there, in order to make up his Accompts with him. He went and brings an answer back again, That my Lord was not at leisure to speak with Mr. Dugdale

then, nor none of us from him. And Mr. Hawley said, he was then going up with the Lords to Nine-pins. Mr. Dugdale faid, he was very ill used, for he had been several times there before, and he could not be admitted to speak with him. He hath a little Book says he (meaning my Lord) wherein there is an Accompt made up under his own hand of almost Two or Three hundred Pounds, which sum I cannot say, but one of them I am certain of, which he hath de∣nyed several times that he had it, (but I can prove that he hath it) if he will be pleased to produce that Book, we need not be a quarter of an hour in making up the Accompt. He did speak of some other sums he had to place to Accompt too, but so much was made up already. But Captain Hawley saying he would not speak with him, nor any of us from him, I did take the liberty to say to Cap∣tain Hawley, That it was hard his Lordship and his party should abuse Mr. Dug∣dale at that rate, to make him his Debtor: for now I understood by what Mr. Dugdale said, my Lord was his Debtor. And said I, if I can perswade Mr. Dugdale he shall publish his Case, for the Protestant Interest suffered by it, That he should be made a Debtor to my Lord when he was not so. And I believe Capt. Hawley told my Lord Aston what I did say, for when he came back again from my Lord Aston, he said my Lord did acknowledge he had that Book, and it was ready to be produced, but he would stay till a Councellor of his came out of the Country, and till he had spoke with the Lieutenant; for he would not speak with Mr. Dug∣dale unless the Lieutenant were by, and in three or four days time he would send for him; but I never heard that he sent for him ever since. If it please your Lordships, I have one thing more that I remember: There was a young man that belonged to my Lord Aston's Family, that heard Mr. Dugdale was at Captain Hawley's Chamber, and came to see him, and paid a very great respect to him, and would stand bare to him, though Mr. Dugdale desired him to put on his Hat several times. Some of us asked him, whether Mr. Dugdale was thought to be such a Knave, when he lived with his Lord, as they would have made him since. No, said he, Mr. Dugdale was as honest a Gentleman as ever lived in our Family. I remember my Lord Aston's man said this to us then.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, Will you be pleased to give me leave, if I speak im∣pertinently I am under your correction, I conceive I shall have something to an∣swer this, but I would first know whether I may desire of your Lordships, that I may have my Lord Aston here to give an account of this matter.

Sir Will. Jones.

If he were here he could not be heard, being a person accused for the same offence.

L. H. Stew.

My Lord, he stands Indicted for the same Treason, and cannot be a Witness.

L. Stafford.

I beg your pardon, my Lord.

Nicholas Boson was sworn.

L. H. Stew.

What is your Name?

Witness.

Nicholas Boson.

Sir VV. Jones.

Declare to my Lords what you know concerning Mr. Dugdale's pressing my Lord Aston to come to an accompt.

Mr. Boson.

In January last, I met with Mr. Dugdale, and one Mr. Noble, and one Mr. Colledge. And Mr. Dugdale desired us to go down with him to the Tower. He said he had an Order of the Council to pass his Accompts with my Lord Aston; and when we came there, we enquired for Captain Hawley, and desired him that he would acquaint my Lord Aston, that he was there to accompt with him. Captain Hawley went up to my Lord Aston, and brought word back again, my Lord was not at leisure, or would not speak with him, or to that ef∣fect: whereupon Mr. Dugdale said, it was very hard that he should be aspersed to owe my Lord Mony, and he would not come to accompt with him. For my Lord Aston had a Book or Books in his custody which he would stand by, and they would determine the business between them; that my Lord Aston was almost Two hundred pounds in his debt. And pray, says he, Captain Hawley, do me the favour to go to my Lord Aston again, and desire him that he will be pleased to produce that Book or Books. If I owe my Lord any money I am ready to pay him, and if he owe me any, I hope his Lordship will do the like by me; as I am sure he does. Two hundred Pounds. Captain Hawley went away, and brought this Answer, That his Lordship would send for him in some short time, assoon as a Co••nellor did come out of the Country, whom he had entrust∣ed with his Books; and that was one Birch, as near as I remember.

Sir Will. Jones.

We have done with this Witness. And because we desire to conclude as to Mr. Dugdale, we shall call some persons of Quality as to his Repu∣tation, my Lord having gone about to make him a man of no Reputation.

Mr. Boson.

I can speak too about the Boy that came in.

Sir VV. Jones.

There is no need of that now: we shall trouble you no further, Sir. Your Lordships will be pleased to observe, That Mr. Philips, the Minister, that was one of my Lord Stafford's Witnesses, did say, Mr. Dugdale was a man of whome many spoke well, and some indifferently, and perhaps that is the case of most good men; for scarce any are so good that all speak well of them; but that many should speak well and some indifferently of him, may be the lot of a very good man. We shall call some Witnesses, and begin with Mr. VVhitby a Justice of the Peace, that will tell you he hath known Mr. Dugdale long, and what Reputation he is of.

Thomas Whitby Esq sworn.

Sir John Trevor.

My Lords, We desire your Lordships would be pleased to ask him what Reputation and credit Mr. Dugdale was in, in my Lord Aston's Service.

Mr. VVhitby.

My Lords, I have known Mr. Dugdale to be a Servant to my Lord Aston this nine or ten years; he was Steward to him, and there was no other

person between my Lord and him; he received my Lords Rents and Debts for him, exchanged his Lands for him in forty places, I exchanged some Land with my Lord my self, and he was the man that did it. He was very hard for my Lords advantage, and did what he could for my Lords profit.

Sir John Trevor.

What do you know more as to his dealing?

Mr. VVhitby.

He was a person that was next to my Lord, and did rule and go∣vern the rest of the Family. All the Servants were under him.

Sir John Trevor.

Was he looked upon to be an honest man in his dealings?

Mr. VVhitby.

As to what I had to deal with him he was an honest man, I never heard the contrary. I have heard some Tradesmen complain that he hath put them off without Money, would not pay them what my Lord ow∣ed them.

L. Stafford.

I desire that Mr. VVhitby may be here when I shall have occasion to say something to him.

Sir VV. Jones.

That will be, I hope, by and by, for we have almost done. Call Mr. VVilliam Southall.

(VVho was sworn.)

L. H. Stew.

What is your Name?

VVitness.

VVilliam Southall.

Mr. Foley.

Give my Lords an account how long you have known Dugdale, and what you know of him.

Mr. Southall.

My Lords, I have known Mr. Stephen Dugdale about eight years.

Mr. Foley.

How hath he behaved himself? What Reputation hath he born?

Mr. Southall.

Truly he hath always had a good repute, not only with my Lords Tenants, but also with the Workmen, and those people that had depen∣dance on the Family, and truly I never heard any ill report of him, but only what is spoken of now of late.

Sir Fr. VVinn.

Were you very well acquainted with him?

Mr. Southall.

Yes, but never had any business with him. Several discourses I have had with him about the Popish Religion.

Sir John Trevor.

My Lords, I only observe this, This Gentleman is Coroner of the County, and hath a general knowledge of the County, and must know most men there.

Sir Fran. VVinnington.

You are Coroner of the County of Stafford, Sir, I think?

Mr. Southall.

Yes, I am one of them.

Mr. Foley.

What was he in my Lords House?

Mr. Southall.

Bailiff, and a kind of Governour, providing meat, and paying Workmen, most of the things of the Family went through his hands.

Sir Fran. Winn.

My Lords, This Gentleman is a Coroner of the County,

and can speak materially to other particulars besides this of Dugdale's Reputation▪ for he was a person who was present when he made his first discovery of this Plot, and was very instrumental in prevailing with him to do it. He will give your Lordships an account of the whole business, and I would rather he him∣self should relate all the progress of it, than take upon me to recite any of the passages.

Mr. Southall.

There was the latter end of November (78.) a Report that Mr. Dugdale was gone away from my Lord Aston's, suddenly and strangely, and it was the common report in the Country that he was in the Plot, and was fled for it. In the beginning of December I went through a Town called Great Heywood, a Mile and a half from Tixal, where my Lord Aston and Mr. Dugdale dwelt. I called at Mr. Thomas Whitby's House, the Gentleman that was up here lately, and he was telling me, Dugdale was come again and apprehended by the Watch at Heywood upon suspicion. He told me further, he would make no confession of the Plot, though he had been under Examination before Sir VValter Bagott, Mr. Kinnersley, and I think he said Sir Thomas VVhitgrave. But he told me divers passages by which we both suspected he might be concerned and know of the Plot. We thought so from the various reports and rumors we had heard in the Country, and from those great grounds of suspicion that were given us. As I returned from Heywood, I resolved I would speak with Dug∣dale the first opportunity, for I had a strong perswasion I could prevail with him to make a discovery of the Plot, but before I did speak with him, there was one Goldsmith my Kinsman, had some difference fallen out between him and Mr. Ansell, and Mr. Dugdale, touching a Deed, the deciding of which they had re∣ferred to Mr. Dugdale. And he desired me to go to Mr. Dugdale to Stafford with him, I was very glad of the opportunity. Ansel was to bring one Hanson, Mr. Goldsmith was to bring me, and Mr. Dugdale was to bring one Mr. Gerrard, that was concerned in the Premortgage, that we might all have discourse to∣gether. I promised to meet them at the time appointed, and accordingly the 23th. of December, two days before Christmas-day, I came to the place in Stafford, where Dugdale was, about Ten a Clock in the Morning, where they met according to their promise. We had not been in the House longer than a quarter of an hour, but the Kings business, which I thought was a business of greater weight than any particular business, did stick much upon me, and I resolv∣ed before I spoke to the particular business about which we all met, I would first speak to Mr. Dugdale to put that in execution which I had resolved. After a short space of time I desired Mr. Dugdale that I might speak with him in a Cham∣ber privately between him and me; he told me, if I would go into the next Chamber to his, he would come to me. Accordingly I went, and staid a short space of time, and Mr. Dugdale came to me. I desired him to make the Door to, which he did, and I began thus with him. Mr. Dugdale, ••••id I,

for some Years last past, since I came to be acquainted with you, I have always had a good esteem of you, and you a good report in the Country where you live, and now there is an opportunity put into your hands to serve his Majesty and his Protestant Subjects, if (as an honest man ought) you will discharge your Duty. Mr. Dugdale replyed, Sir, what do you mean? Why said I, I mean this in a few words, Here is a Plot discovered in London, and if it be in London, I conceive it hath been in part acted at Tixal, and if there, of necessity, you having such a Government and Rule over that House, it is impossible but you must know it. He looked upon me very earnestly, and gave me a smile, but answered me not; I replied to him again thus, said I, There is a natural Allegiance which every Subject owes to his Soveraign, and by that it is required, that if any Subjects know of any Plot or any Conspiracy against his Person and Government, they ought in Conscience to discover it, therefore Mr. Dugdale, said I, discharge a good Conscience, and tell what you know, for it is commonly suspected you are concerned in the Plot. He answered, I have taken the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy. When and where said I? Before his Majesties Justices of the Peace at Stafford, said he. Then said I, there is not only that natural Allegi∣ance which every Subject owes to his Prince, but the Oath of Almighty God lies upon your Conscience, therefore discharge a good Conscience; and tell your knowledge. He stood pausing a little while, and by and by, said he, If I should make any discovery, how should I be secured of my Life? You need not Question that, said I, nor his Majesties Gracious Pardon which he hath promised in his Proclamation; Have you seen the Proclamation? Yes, said he. Said I, you have but a short time, a day or two to discover in, for this is the 23th, and as I do conceive, you ought to discover before the 25th; he stood pausing a while about the time, said I, you need not question his Majesties Gracious Promise, and to incourage you thereto, there is not only an assurance of Pardon, but a promise of Reward of Two hundred pounds. Said he, if I do discover any thing of my knowledge, I matter not, nor de∣sire (I don't know which it was) his Majesties Money, so I may be secured of my Life. Upon this, my Lords, said I, Sir, you need not question his Ma∣jesties Gracious Promise, my Life for yours, if you have not his Pardon, but I will take special care about it, for I will send up a Letter to London, directed to some of the Lords (which I accordingly did) and I will also speak to Captain Lane, who is a worthy Gentleman to interpose in it too. Then said he, I will make a discovery of the Plot. Then, my Lords, he told me first some particular passages relating to this Lord at the Bar, and also concerning Mr. Evers and Mr Peters, now in Custody, and some other particulars; I wished him that he would speak no more at that time. And when I parted with him, forth∣with I consulted with my self what I ought to do, in point of Law; I knew, I must discover, that a further discovery might be made of what had passed be∣tween

us. Then I went to Mr. Freek, who was either Mayor or Justice of Peace in Stafford, and told him he must come with me to Serjeant Par∣ry's. He asked me what to do. I told him when he came he should know: he accordingly came, and took short Notes of a further Discovery, and Mr. Freek he certified it up to Mr. Chetwyn, who was then at London. Upon the day following the 24th. I rose and went to one Mr. Vernon, one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace, and told him what had happened, and he sent for Captain Lane another of His Majesties Justices of the Peace, and they took an Examination of him. I have done, my Lord, with reference to his Dis∣covery, and the time.

L. H. Steward.

Do you remember what he mentioned of my Lord Stafford? what he said of him?

Mr. Southall.

Truly, my Lords, I can only tell what he said at the first Exami∣nation, he told me the first time my Lord Stafford spoke with him was at Tixal-Hall, nigh to the Gate-House, betwixt the Gate and the Hall. My Lord was going into the Hall, and my Lord Stafford told him, it was a very hard thing, or to that purpose, that they could not say their Prayes but in private, and after told him the same day or night t'one, that they had some work to do, and he might or must be instrumental in it. This was the effect of what he told me passed the first time. Another time I think he told me he was to have five hundred pounds to kill the King.

Lord High Steward.

When did he tell you so?

Mr. Southall.

Not till Captain Lane examined him, which was the second time he was examined; which was about the 26th.

L. H. Stew.

Did he swear that before Vernon and Lane?

Mr. Southall.

Yes, he did, I could give your Lordships a Breviate of what he swore then.

L. Stafford.

I desire he may give that Breviate.

Mr. Southall.

I took some Notes of what he swore then.

L. H. Stew.

Have you them by you, or about you?

Mr. Southall.

Yes, my Lords, I have.

L. H. Stew.

Produce them.

Mr. Southall.

I took this upon some Paper I had in my Pocket, and is the substance of what he swore.

(Which he delivered to the Clerk.)

Clerke.

December the 24th. 1678. Mr. Dugdale informeth, That in Septem∣ber last, he met in Tixall, the Lord Stafford, nigh to the Gates, who said, That it was sad they were troubled they could not say their Prayers, but in a hid manner, but suddenly there would be a Reformation to the Romish Religion,

and if there be a good success we shall enjoy our freedom. And that upon the 20th. day of September, 1678. the said Lord Stafford told this Informant, That there was a Design in hand, and if he would undertake in it, he should have a good Re∣ward, &c. and make himself famous. The same day this Informant went up into Mr. Francis Evers Chamber to know what my Lord Stafford meant by his words; and he first made him swear secresie upon his knees, and then told him, That he might be a person employed, and have a good Reward, and make him∣self famous, if he would stand instrumental with others in taking aatay the Kings Life, by Shooting or otherwise, and need not fear, for that the Pope had Excommunicated the King, and that all that were Excommunicated by him were Hereticks, and they might Kill them, and be Canonized for Saints in so doing. And that the Design was as well to Kill the Duke of Monmouth as well as the King.

December the 29th. 1678. This Informant saith, That since the 20th. day of September last, the said Lord Stafford did promise him Five Hundred Pounds as to the carrying on of the Plot, and that Mr. Evers should give him instructions about the same. And that the Lord Stafford told him, he did not doubt of his fidelity, for Mr. Evers had given him a good character to be trusty. And that the Lord Stafford told this Informant, That there was a Design to take away the Life of the King, and the Life of the Duke of Monmouth, and that seve∣ral others were to be imployed in the Design besides this Informant. And that this had been throughly considered of to be the fittest way for the establishing of the Romish Religion. And that at the said time, the said Lord Stafford laid his hand upon his head, and prayed God to keep him in his good mind, and to be faith∣ful to what he had intrusted him in, &c.

And this Informant further saith, That he doubting of the Lord Stafford's payment, the said Mr. Evers promised him the making good of my Lord Stafford's promise, &c.

And further saith, that he saw a Letter directed from my Lord Stafford to Mr. E∣vers, and he read the same, and knows it to be my Lord Stafford's writing, and that therein was written, that things went on well beyond the S••as, for the carrying on the Design, and so he hoped it did do here in England, &c.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lords, we will examine no further as to Mr. Dugdale: But will conclude with this Witness, and I think he speaks fully to him. The next Witness we called was Dr. Oats, and your Lordships have been pleased to observe, That what Exceptions have been made against him, have not been so much by Witnesses produced, as by opposing one part of his Testimony to ano∣ther, what he swore at one time to what he swore at another, to which we shall give an Answer when we come to sum up our Evidence; for there will be no need of Witnesses to what is objected against Mr. Oats, but only of Observations; but as to the third Witness Turbervill, we have something to answer of Witness, and some••••ing by way of making Observation. We will first call our Witnesses.

Then Mr. Southall desired his Paper again, which the Court told him he should have a Copy of from the Clerk.

Sir W. Jones.

And our first Witness is to this purpose, It was objected against Mr. Turbervill—

L. H. Steward.

Have you done with Dugdale? You have forgot to give an Answer to the objection about the point of time when Hobson told him of the De∣sign.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lords, That will be when we come to make our Obser∣vations, we shall not answer that by Witnesses; when we come to sum up our Evidence, I doubt not but we shall give a sufficient Answer to that Objection. But to go on with what is to be answered by Testimony, your Lordships will be pleased to remember, That Turbervill did inform your Lordships, That he had some converse with my Lord Stafford at Paris, being introduced by some of the Fathers. My Lords, we shall call a Gentleman that had happened to be there at that time, that will tell you though he did not know my Lord Stafford, yet he knew that Turbervill did converse much with an English Lord in that place where my Lord does acknowledge his Lodging to be. He will give you some further account how Turbervill went to Diep in expectation of my Lord, and how he had a Message from the Lord, though he did not know my Lord Stafford. He will give you a further account how Mr. Turbervill was earnest with him to go to Ca∣lice, and then told him, he might go over with my Lord at that time. The use we make of these particulars we will forbear to mention till we sum up our Evi∣dence. We desire to examine Mr. Thomas Mort.

(Who was sworn.)

Sir Will. Jones.

We desire to ask Mr. Mort, whether he knew Mr. Turbervill at Paris, and at what time.

L. H. Steward.

What say you, Sir?

Mr. Mort.

Yes, my Lords, I knew him, it is now five years past since we were in Paris. He and I had been intimately acquainted, before we lived in the same Family. I was several times in company with him, and many times in his Bro∣thers company, which was a Monk, and I heard him say his Brother had an in∣tention he should be of the same Order. And some time after that he altered his resolution, and designed for England, and I had such a design too to go from Paris, where I was an Apprentice. And being acquainted with him I resolved to go over with him, and he told me, his Brother the Monk had introduced him into the favour of a Lord, as I take it, it was my Lord Stafford, as well as I can re∣member. And that there was a Vessel to come to Diep, a Yaught, and we should go thither to go over with my Lord. And Mr. Turbervill told me, we must make as much hast as might be, for it were better to be there a day or two too soon than too late. We went to Diep, and when we came there, the Vessel was not come. And when we had been there a fortnight, or thereabouts, we were

put to a great deal of inconveniency by reason of our long stay there, and, I think, if I mistake not, I or some of the Company said, Cursed is he that relies or de∣pends on a broken Staff, alluding, as I believe, to my Lord Stafford's Name. Mr. Turbervill told me, if we did go to Calice, we might go over with my Lord; but how or by what means he understood the Vessel would be there, and my Lord go that way, I know not. But we did not go thither, we had another oppor∣tunity; there was a small Vessel whether a Fish-Boat, or a Coal-Vessel I can∣not tell, a very little one it was, but we took the opportunity, and came over in it.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lords, we shall make use of it in due time, we only call him now to prove his converse with a Lord at Paris.

L. H. Steward.

Did you ever see Turbervill at a Lords House in Paris?

Mr. Mort.

No, my Lords, not that I can remember; but I think as near as I remember, I will not be positive, I walked about Luxenburgh House while he went, as he said, to the place where the Lord lodged, I was thereabouts till he came.

L. Stafford:

In what Street was it?

Mr. Mort.

Indeed I cannot tell.

Sir W. Jones.

This man is very cautious.

L. H. Steward.

Can you tell the Lords Name?

Mr. Mort.

I do not remember his Title, but I think it was my Lord Stafford.

Sir William Jones.

Pray who were you Servant to? Who were you bred under?

Mr. Mort.

My Lord Powis. I served as Page to him, when Mr. Turbervill was Gentleman-Usher to the Young Lady, one of his Daughters, since mar∣ried to my Lord Molineux.

Sir Will. Jones.

Will my Lord please to ask him any Questions? if not, we will go on.

L. Stafford.

No, not at present.

Sir Will. Jones.

Well then, my Lords, we desire to call one Mr. Powell, a Gentleman of Grays-Inn, to tell you when he first heard Mr. Turbervill speak of this Evidence he hath now given.

Mr. Powell was sworn.

Sir W. Jones.

Pray will you give an account what discourse you had with Mr. Turbervill about the Plot, and when.

Mr. Powell.

About this time Twelve-month we discoursed about it, and he told me, that he had much to say in relation to the Plot; but truly he did not name any particulars to me at that time.

Sir Will. Jones.

Where was this, we desire to ask him?

Mr. Powell.

It was at the Kings-head Tavern in Holborn.

Sir William Jones.

Are you sure it was a year ago?

Mr. Powel.

It was about this time Twelve-month.

Sir Will. Jones.

What was the reason he did not think fit then to reveal it? Did he tell the reason?

Mr. Powel.

I think he gave me a reason, That he was something cautious, be∣cause he feared he might disoblige his Brother at that time.

Sir VV. Jones.

Did he give you any further reason?

Mr. Powel.

I think he said he was afraid he should not have incouragement e∣nough, for he said some of the Witnesses had been discouraged, and he was afraid he should be so too.

Sir VV. Jones.

Now we shall call a few Witnesses to Mr. Turbervill's Reputa∣tion which have known him a good while. Mr. Hobby.

L. H. Stew.

Was this time that Mr. Powel speaks of, that he did discourse with him, before or after that of Yalden?

Sir W. Jones.

My Lords, We do not know of any discourse with Yalden, nay we believe none such was. This Witness speaks of a Year since.

L. H. Steward.

What time does Yalden speake of?

Sir VVilliam Jones.

February or March last, and this was a year ago.

L. H. Steward.

This was then before that certainly.

Sir VVilliam Jones.

We desire Mr. Arnold a Member of the House of Com∣mons may be sworn.

(which was done in his place.)

Sir VVilliam Jones.

Do you know Mr. Turbervill?

Mr. Arnold.

My Lords, I do know him very well, and I have known him these two years, he came recommended to me from his Grace my Lord Duke of Buckingham; My Lords, presently after the breaking out of the Plot, he was sent down into our Countrey, by the Lords of your Lordships House that were of the Committee, and a particular recommendation from the Duke of Bucking∣ham to me, to give him direction and assistance to find out a Priest, one Charles Prichard, and I think also if I mistake not, one Morgan, my Lord Powis's Priest. I spoke with him before he went, I sent Letters down with him, I spoke with him afterwards, he hath been in my family some time; he hath behaved him∣self very well there, and in several other sober families nearly related to me. I have not heard a better character of any man from all sorts of people, than of him in my life.

Sir VV. Jones.

Did he tell you any thing of the Plot, Sir?

Mr. Arnold.

My Lords, I did several times find by him, that he knew much; having conversed both in France and here with Jesuits and Priests. I pressed him oftentimes to discover his knowledge, and to come in to the Council; but he gave me such Answers why he did not, that I could not answer.

Sir VVilliam Jones.

What were they Sir? Pray tell us

Mr. Arnold.

That the Witnesses that were come in, were in danger of their Lives; that they were discouraged, that they were discountenanced; and as long as the Duke of York had that power in the Conncil that he had, and my Lady Powis's Brother had that power over those Countreys where he lived (which his Lordship is often pleased to call his Province) he durst not do it for his Life.

Then Mr, Hobby was sworn.

Sir Will. Jones.

Do you know Mr. Turbervill, and how long have you known him?

Mr. Hobby.

My Lords, I have known Mr. Turbervill near four years.

L. H. Steward.

What account can you give of him?

Mr. Hobby.

My Lords, my first acquaintance with him, was at my Brothers House in Glamorganshire. When I came there, my Brother shew'd him me, and told me he was a very worthy man, but his Friends had cast him off, because he would not take Orders in the Romish Church. He lived at my Brothers a∣bove a year; and when he came thence, my Brother writ a Letter of Recom∣mendation to my Father to receive him there, and do him all the kindness he could. He came to my Father's, and stay'd there near half a year, or thereabouts, I cannot tell to a Month or so. Since, I have known him often in this Town, and been in his company; and I never knew, nor heard, but that he behaved himself like a worthy honest Gentleman; but as to any thing of the Plot, I know nothing.

Sir VV. Jones.

We ask you not to that: Where is Mr. Matthews?

Then Mr. Matthews a Divine was sworn.

Sir VV. Jones.

Mr. Matthews, pray tell my Lords, Whether you know Mr. Turbervill, and how long have you known him?

Mr. Matthews.

Yes, My Lords, I have known Mr. Edward Turbervill for about four years last past.

L. H. Steward.

Go on, what do you know of him?

Mr. Matthews.

My Lords, he lived some time in my Neighbourhood; I never knew him guilty of any ill action at all, but a person of a very fair Reputa∣tion. He acknowledged himself a Roman Catholick, and was pleased to give me the liberty to talk to him. I found him inclinable to hearken to me, and to those Reasons I offered to him; and I found he had a mind to quit that Religion, being convinced by the Arguments I gave him, and as several times he hath since told me, those were some of the great motives of his coming over from the Ro∣mish to the Protestant Communion.

L. H. Stew.

What were the Motives?

Mr. Matthews.

One was the hazard I told him of, in his living in the Roman Communion as to Salvation; another was the excellency of the Doctrines of our Church, its Principles and Practices.

L. H. Steward.

Did he acknowledge to you he knew any thing of the Plot?

Mr. Matthews

No, not a syllable of it.

Sir Will. Jones.

We don't call him to that purpose.

Then another Witness was sworn.

L. H. Steward.

What is your Name?

Witness.

William Seys.

Sir W. Jones.

Pray will you acquaint my Lords, what you know of Mr. Tur∣bervill.

Mr. Seys.

I have been acquainted with him this two or three years, and I ne∣ver knew him guilty of any ill action my life. I never heard of any body that could asperse him, but he hath behaved himself like a very honest, civil Gentle∣man.

Sir Will. Jones.

Where were you acquainted with him?

Mr. Seys.

Here in London.

Then Captain Scudamore stood up again.

Sir Will. Jones.

He was sworn before, we desire he may speak to Mr. Turber∣vill's Reputation.

Capt. Scudamore.

My Lords, I have known Mr. Turbervill for these three quarters of a year, I have been acquainted with him in London, he hath been much at my House, and all that while I saw nothing in him, but that he is a very honest Gentleman.

Sir William Jones.

My Lords, I think we have but one matter more, which we should have mentioned before, but that our Witness was not come: but I hope we shall have the favour of some Honourable Lords that do know the thing, and I think there are many more that can prove it. My Lord Stafford who is very an∣cient, it may be, may not remember matters exactly, I blame him not; Oblivion is the great infirmity of old age. He was pleased to say Yesterday, he had so good health, that he had not been lame, I think he said for these Forty years; but at last his Page said for the last Seven years; and I shall confirm our proof to that time. My Lords, I think there are some Honourable Lords here, that have seen this Noble Lord, that says he was not Lame in so many years very near about the time he was confined and imprisoned, go Lame and come Lame to the House, and ease himself by holding up his Legg sometimes. My Lords, I do not say, the Circumstance is very material, but only to shew my Lord may for∣get himself, which I shall impute to his old Age.

L. Stafford.

I will acknowlede it, if your Lordships please, I did say I had not been lame with the Gout so long, no more I have not. I was troubled with the Sciatica many years, but 'tis above eight or nine years since that, and I took so much Opium that that and my going to the Bath cured me. I have often come lame to the House out of weariness and old Age, but if ever I put my Foot upon a Stool for the Gout, or was ever so lame as to put my Foot upon a Cushion to

ease it, I will admit what he speaks to, I'll acknowledge thus much to save time.

Sir Will. Jones.

Seeing my Lord is pleased to go off from it, I'll call no Wit∣nesses to it.

L. Stafford.

I go off from nothing, I was lame three or four years when the King came in: I went to the Bath, and afterwards into Germany, and what with Opium and the Bath I was cured, and I have not been lame these eight or nine years. I have not had the Gout in my Foot for these many years, and I never was so lame to put my Foot on a stool to my remembrance.

Sir VVill. Jones.

I do not think we shall need to trouble your Lordships more with this matter, that my Lord was lame sometime he is pleased to confess. One Witness says that he put his Foot on a Cushion, my Lord does not acknowledge that.

L. Stafford.

I was never lame at Paris.

Sir VVill. Jones.

That a man that is lame does sometimes ease his Foot is no hard Consequence I think.

L. Stafford.

I deny I was lame then, I walked about the streets of Paris, I de∣sire I may not be misunderstood.

Sir VVill. Jones.

I must then desire under his Lordships favour, if he will not ac∣knowledge it to be within seven years, that we may prove it, and falsifie his Wit∣ness, the Page.

L. Stafford.

I have gone with a stick to the House, I acknowledge it, and been lame with weariness.

Sir Fr. VVinn.

The Objection went to the Credit of our Witness, and there∣fore we desire to answer it: my Lord was not lame, as he says, for so many years, but if we prove that within less time my Lord hath been lame, it will take off that Objection from our Witness. And we desire a Noble Lord or two of this House may testifie what they know. And first the Earl of Stamford,

(who was sworn.)

Earl of Stamford,

My Lords, I think I have not had the honour to sit in this House much above seven years, but long since that time I have seen my Lord Stafford come lame into the House of Peers, and that is all I can say.

L. Stafford.

I have come lame with a stick to the House I say.

Sir Fr. Winn.

My Lords, we desire that Noble Lord, my Lord Lovelace may be sworn,

(which was done.)

Lord Lovelace.

My Lords, the Account that I can give your Lordships is this, I cannot ascertain any time, but I am sure, and I do declare it upon my Honour, and the Oath I have taken, that I have seen my Lord Stafford lame in the House of Lords within less than this seven years.

L. Stafford.

If he goes home to the Tower he may see me lame, but never put my Foot upon a stool.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lords, your Lordships will be pleased to remember we did call a Witness, one Thomas Launder, and the account we had of him was he was gone sick from the Bar, he was very sick indeed, but being just now brought, we desire he may be heard though it be out of time, we call him to the Reputation of Holt.

Thomas Launder was sworn.

Sir John Trevor.

Do you declare to my Lords whether you know Samuel Holt?

Launder.

Yes my Lords, I do.

L. H. Steward.

What do you know of him?

Launder.

He is a Smith, my Lords.

L. H. Steward.

What Reputation is he of?

Launder.

Indifferent, my Lords.

Sir William Jones.

What do you mean by that, good or bad? speak plainly.

Launder.

A Drunken Sot, a man that will Drink and Rant and Tear the Ground, and sing two or three days or a week together, and lose his time.

Sir Fr. Winn.

I would ask this man whether he was summoned as a Witness upon any Tryal in relation to the Plot?

L. H. Stew.

Were you ever summon'd as a Witness about the Plot?

Launder.

My Lords, I was summon'd concerning my Lord Aston's Tryal, and I came up with my Lord Aston's people as an Evidence.

Sir W. Jones.

Had you any offer of money, and what sum?

Launder.

Yes, my Lords.

Sir Fr. Winn.

Acquaint my Lords with it.

L. H. Stew.

Who offered it you? and when? and for what?

Sir Will. Jones.

For what was that money offered you?

Launder.

The money was not absolutely offered me, but I was to have an Horse to ride on, and money in my Pocket if I could take off James Ansel, Dugdale's Evidence.

L. H. Stew.

Who came and offered it to you?

Launder.

I was sent for by Mr. Fox to Tixal Hall, and there was my old Lords Brother for one, and Mr. Thomas Aston that is this young Lords Brother, and Mr. Francis Aston who is my Lords eldest Son were in a Room together, and this Thomas Sawyer that was here, and more were in the Room when they promised all these things.

L. H. Steward.

If you would do what?

Launder.

If I would take my Oath that this James Ansell was a Perjured Rogue.

L. H. Stew.

Did all they make you this promise?

Launder.

Yes, my Lords.

Mr. Fotey.

It was a Consult together about taking off the Evidence.

Sir Will▪ Jones.

My Lords, we have done with our. Witnesses, if my Lord Staf∣ford please to conclude we are ready to do so too.

L. Stafford.

What should I conclude? about those Witnesses you have now brought in?

Sir W. Jones.

Your Lordship may please to conclude your Evidence, we are ready to conclude on our part.

L. Stafford.

These new Witnesses, must I say what I can say against them presently? I cannot do it, I know very few of them.

L. H. Steward.

Have you any Witnesses here, my Lord?

L. Stafford.

I cannot possibly have any. For I did not know nor guess these people would be brought against me. They are persons I know nothing of. An∣sell I have seen four or five times, I may have seen the rest, but I do not know them to be able to give an accompt of them.

L. H. Stew.

If you have any Witnesses here to support the credit of your own Witnesses that have been impeached, you may call them.

L. Stafford.

I have none, my Lords.

L. H. Stew.

Will your Lordship recapitulate the material parts of your De∣fence, that the Process may be closed?

L. Stafford.

I am very unready for it, my Lords. Let me ask Mr. VVhitby a Question, if I must have no more time.

Mr. Whitby stood up.

L. H. Stew.

There he is, what would your Lordship have with him?

L. Stafford.

I do not know the Gentleman.

Mr. VVhitby.

Nor I your Lordship.

Lord Stafford.

I ask him upon the Oath he hath taken, I know he will speak truth, whether he did not some years ago tell my Lord Aston that is dead, this Lord's Father, That Dugdale was a Knave, and persuaded him to turn him away, (I say not it is true, but I have heard so) and desired him to tell his Son so, that he might quit himself of him?

L. H. Steward.

What say you, Mr. VVhitby?

Mr. VVhitby.

My Lords, about three or four years ago my Lord Aston that is dead (I believe it may be two years last April) sent for me to dine with him, and when I came thither, he told me, says he, Mr. VVhitby I have sent to you to acquaint you with a thing, but I do not believe it before I tell it you. What is it, said I? said he, Stephen Dugdale hath acquainted me, that you have employed persons upon the Water to destroy my Water; said I, my Lord I never endeavoured it; he said, he did believe me; then I told my Lord; said I, Mr. Dugdale is a disho∣nour to the Family, upon this accompt, because many times people come for mo∣ney and he will not let them have it, but puts them off and makes them com∣plain; says my Lord, my Son is now at Standall, but I will tell him as soon as he

comes home, and if you will bring the persons that have waited so long for their money, and made so many journeys, you shall hear what he will say to it. With∣in a while my Lord Aston that now is, came down, and I went thither to see what became of it. And I went to the B••wling. Green where my Lord and his Son were; but my old Lord said nothing to me of it, nor his Son neither. Within a few days my old Lord Aston's Gentleman came down to my House (one Mr. Ashley,) said I, I wonder whether my Lord Aston hath acquainted his Son with what I told him; says he, he hath, but it signifies nothing, for he will hear nothing against Mr. Dugdale. This I speak upon my Oath, 'tis true.

L. H. Steward.

Your Lordship sees what this Gentlemans Opinion was of Dugdale then, he would hear nothing against him. Will your Lordship con∣clude?

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I am mighty unready, and know not which way to turn my self, upon those new things they have brought, for I knew nothing of it, nor expected any such thing. But will you be pleased that I may call Simon Wright again.

(VVho stood up.)

L. H. Stew.

What would your Lordship have with him?

L. Stafford.

I have nothing to say to him, but to desire him to seé this Letter, whether it be of his own Writing or no.

L. H. Stew.

Look upon that Paper, shew it him,

(which was done.)

L. H. Stew,

Is it your hand?

Wright.

This is my hand. 'Tis part of that I was hired to do. There is ano∣ther of a great deal more consequence than that.

L. H. Stew.

Deliver it in, and read it.

Clerk.

June the 14. 1680.

Sir,

I Can I bless God with a safe Conscience declare upon Oath, that Mr. Dugdale hath been unkind to me in taking his opportunity of my Pover∣ty by reason of a private meeting of us two by his appointment, he did that time proffer if I would swear against You and Mr. Gerard, he would protect me as one of the King's Evidence, and I should not want Money; and in the Hall at Westmin∣ster he said, if I did discover it that day at Mrs. Price's Tryal he would set me in the Pillory: This I have owned to his face, and shall not go back from this and more, neither for fear nor favour. So I rest as you shall find by your Servant,

Sim. Wright.

L. H. Steward.

Is this your hand?

VVright.

Yes my Lords, this I was advised word for word to write.

L. H. Stew.

Who pen'd this for you? Did you pen it your self?

VVright.

No, my Lords, they penn'd it, and a great while I would not set my hand to it, but Jermin Drayton said I need not fear, I was not to swear against the King,

L. H. Steward.

Who is that?

VVright.

He is Butler to Mr. Heveningham.

L. Stafford.

See what you have under his hand, I have no more to say to him.

VVright.

But by their perswasion at last I did wright it, and a great deal more then that.

Sir William Jones.

I desire to ask Mr. VVright whether they would have had him swore this.

L. H. Stew.

Were you desired to swear this?

VVright.

No, my Lords, they never put me to swear it; for they told me I was not to swear against the King; but if I would be so kind to make an Affidavit before a Justice of Peace, I might then go where I would into the Country, and I should have money to bear my charges.

Sir VVilliam Jones.

Who would have had you swear it before a Justice of Peace?

Wright.

Jermin Drayton and Mr. Longmore, where he is I can't tell, but he told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise.

Mr. Serj. Maynard.

The same thing that was done by Redding, he was con∣victed for it, and stood in the Pillory.

Sir Will. Jones.

We desire to know whether he was ever with Sir James Sy∣mons himself, and what he offered?

Wright.

I was once with him at the Kings Bench, I dined there: after I had written the Paper that was read, he gave me 20 s. and said, he hoped I would not go off from what I had said, and he hoped I was sensible his gratuity would not be wanting, and was sorry he had not occasion to use me.

Sir Will. Jones.

My Lords, we have done with him; I only observe that my Lord Stafford was pleased to produce this Paper; he was Master of it, and had it in his keeping.

Sir Fran. VVinnington.

Wright says, there is another Paper of more Conse∣quence; I wish his Lordship would produce that also.

L. Stafford.

I did not know of this till just now it was delivered into my hands. Did you see Mr. Longmore before this Letter was writ?

VVright.

Both before and after, to the best of my remembrance, and at the time when Sir James's Tryal should have been, at the Sign of the Crown in Kings∣street in Bloomsbury.

L. H. Steward.

My Lord, will you conclude?

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I desire your Lordships Pardon; I do not know how really to go about it to night. I will obey your Commands, though I fall down at the Bar. I protest before God, I was all night so ill of the Cramp, that I had no repose. If you will have me go on, I will, if you will give me but a little time to recollect my self.

L. H. Steward.

God forbid, when your Lordship is to speak upon so great a Concern, and a matter of that importance as this is to you, you should be put at the end of the day, and in the midst of all your thoughts, to sum up your Evidence. I do believe, if you do desire time till to Morrow, my Lords will give it you: And if you would have me move my Lords in it, I will.

L. Stafford.

One word, I beseech your Lordships—

Sir VVilliam Jones.

We do not oppose it.

L. Stafford.

My Lords, I desire one thing, I am very ignorant in this matter, and do not understand it; I would desire your Lordships directons to know in what method I must proceed.

L. H. Stew.

Your Lordship is to proceed thus if you please; Your Lordship is to recollect and recapitulate all the Proofs you have made; and you are to enforce them as well as you can, and make such Observations upon them as are for your own advantage: and this your Lordship must do for the Fact: If there remain a doubt in Law which you may have occasion to move, Coun∣sel may be demanded; and if it be considerable and worthy of debate, you may have Counsel heard to speak to it. But the Process is closed, no more Wit∣nesses are to be heard: There remains only Observations upon the Fact or Law to be made.

L. Stafford.

Are no more Witnesses to be heard?

L. H. Steward.

No, I think not: 'tis agreed on both sides, all is done: But my Lord, I would not have your Lordship to understand me so, that if so be you have yet any material Evidence, that you think it does concern you to produce, and you have it ready to Morrow, before you sum up the Evidence; I believe then, if you move my Lords, they will let it be heard: Otherwise I think here is an end of Witnesses.

L. Stafford.

I desire the Paper I gave in, may be returned me.

L. H. Steward.

But in order to this, my Lord, if your Lordship does think, you shall use or produce any other Witnesses, it would be of importance that you would name them now.

L. Stafford.

Truly, my Lords, I will go hunt for none; and I think I shall have none: only one thing I must beg your pardon in; which is the only thing I must have Witnesses to, to answer what they have said, that my Lord Aston would not come to accompt. My Witnesses are very near me, Mr. Lieutenant, some in the Tower, and one Mr. Birch.

L. H. Steward.

My Lord Stafford, bring those to morrow that you name to night.

L. Stafford.

If you please that I may have that Paper, Wright's Letter.

E. of Shaftsbury.

My Lord Steward, I desire that Letter may be kept.

L. Stafford.

It is a Paper that was given me, and I would return it: if you won't allow me it, I can't help it.

L. H. Steward.

'Tis desired it may remain where it is: But your Lordship may have a Copy if you please, attested by the Clerk. Is it your Lordships plea∣sure to Adjourn?

Lords.

Ay, Ay.

L. H. Steward.

This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber.

Then the Lords withdrew in their Order, and the Committee of Commons returned to their House, where Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair.

A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark.

Mr. Speaker,

The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House, That they have Ordered William Viscount Stafford to be brought to his Tryal at the Bar in Westminster-Hall to Morrow morning at Ten of the Clock.

The Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock the next Morning.