Some dialogues between Mr. G. and others with reflections upon a book called Pax vobis.

Second Dialogue Betwixt Esq F. and Mr. G.

Esq F.

PArson, Father, Lay-Bro∣ther, What shall I call you? You are welcome home. In∣deed you have served us a fine trick, to desert us when we stand in most need of you.

Mr. G.

Sir, I am your most humble Servant: Pray, how does your Lady, and the rest of your good Family?

Esq F.

We are all, God be thank∣ed,

in good Health, but not a little concerned to hear that our Spiri∣tual Pastor is become a Wanderer.

Mr. G.

That Name rather be∣longed to me before my return to my true Mother, who, with open Arms, has been pleased to receive her truly penitent Prodigal Son.

Esq F.

She is very kind to Pro∣digals, for to my knowledg, she has received, with open Arms, many of that Character; but I do not think that Name to belong to thee, unless upon the account of Consci∣ence, and of that, I fear, thou hast been as Prodigal as the best of them all.

Mr. G.

However prodigal I may seem to be of it, nothing but Conscience could have caused this Change in me. I should never have forsaken the Communion of the Church of England, if I could with a safe Conscience have lived in it.

Esq F.

I am asham'd to hear thee talk of Conscience. Was it Conscience for thee to educate us and our Children for several Years, according to the Rules of that Church, in whose Communion thou didst not believe either us or thy self to be safe? Or, is it now Con∣science in Thee to receive 120 l. per Annum, and to barter with some young Fellow for 30 l. to do that among us, which thou believest to be a Sin in him, and what will help to keep us still in a state of Damnation?

Mr. G.

My Clerk told me in∣deed, that I must expect to be se∣verely censured by some of the Pa∣rish; but I did hope to have met with better Usage from Esq F.

Esq F.

What honest Man can forbear to be a little concerned, when he sees such doings amongst those who pretend to teach others their Duty.

Mr. G.

The Apostles themselves were reviled, and a many ill things were reported of them, and I ought not to expect to fare other∣wise, who am gone over to a per∣secuted Church.

Esq F.

This is meer Cant, as thou very well knowst: But I would have Thee take care, lest thy Conversion prove not the occa∣sion of a sort of lesser Persecution, even from those of thy own Religi∣on. For to live in the Communi∣on of one Church, and to be all the while of another, is so scandalous a Practice, that it deserves a seven Year's Mortification; and were I to be thy Confessor, I would swinge you with a vengeance, before I gave you Absolution. Pray tell me one thing, Have you received Or∣ders from the Church of Rome, or not?

Mr. G.

I have not.

Esq F.

Nor will be permitted

I suppose, in haste, before you have made some better Satisfaction to the Church for the Scandal you have given it by your double-deal∣ing. Let us see you set out a Nar∣rative of your Conversion, with a cloud of Witnesses to justify it. Let us see you answer some of those troublesome Papers which the He∣reticks at London daily set forth, and then perhaps you shall be put into a Capacity of injoying a Li∣ving, not your own, for that is Meat for your Masters, but some smaller one of 30 or 40 l. per An. which is a good Competency for one that durst not declare till t'other day, who must not expect to feed upon such Delicacies, as belong only to those who have deserved well all their Life-time in the Service of the Catholick Cause.

Mr. G.

What I have done has not been with a prospect of any present Advantage. It is my great∣est

Reward and Comfort▪ that I am in the right way to Heaven; and I hope that it will not be long before your self and others are perswaded to forsake their Errors, as I have done.

Esq F.

You must then produce better Arguments than the World has yet seen; for certainly no Cause was ever more bafled than yours of late has been.

Mr. G.

I wonder why you should say so, since it is built upon an in∣fallible Foundation: Whilst the Re∣formation relies wholly upon the uncertain Reasonings of every par∣ticular Person, and gives liberty to every one to believe what he pleases.

Esq F.

What you call an infalli∣ble Foundation, has been sufficient∣ly shown to be but a sandy one. But what you mean by the uncertain Reasonings of every particular Per∣son, and by giving leave to believe

what a Man pleases, I do not well understand.

Mr. G.

My meaning in short is this. That the Rule of Faith of the Reformation being Scripture, as each Person of sound Judgment in the Church understands it, what∣ever any particular Person judgeth to be the meaning of Scripture, will be to him his Rule of Faith; and therefore since different Persons do put different Interpretations upon the Scripture; nay, since the same Persons do interpret it at one time one way, and at another time ano∣ther, it must necessarily follow, that the Principle, upon which the Re∣formation is built, is very uncertain. For one Man may be of one Per∣swasion, another of another, a third of one different from both. Nay, the same Person may change his Perswasion twice or thrice in a day, and yet continue still a true Son of the Reformation.

Esq F.

I do now guess what you would be at, and perceive that you are well acquainted with a Book called Pax Vobis.

Mr. G.

That is a notable Book.

Esq F.

I allow it to have a great deal of Wit, more of Malice, but nothing of Argument.

Mr. G.

The Book has sold won∣derfully, which is a sign that it has Argument in it.

Esq F.

It is no sign amongst us of the Reformation, for we read Books of all sorts, and are pleased with every thing that is well done in its kind, whether with Argu∣ment or without it, whether writ∣ten by an Enemy or a Friend. And this is such a freedom, that I would not part with it for all the World. So that if I had no other Argu∣ment against your Religion, this to me would seem sufficient, that, if I had once embraced it, and such a sort of Book as Pax Vobis should

come out against it, I should not dare, without a License, to peep in∣to it but should think it a Book as much to be avoided as Chillingworth, Dr. Stillingfleet's Rational Grounds of the Protestant Religion, or the Bible it self.

Mr. G.

Nay, the Reformation gives you freedom enough; for it al∣lows you not only to read any Books, but to be of any Perswasion, if you judg it to be agreeable to Scripture.

Esq F.

You have expressed in short the whole design of that Book, in which, altho there are seven Dia∣logues, yet is there no more said in all of them to prove his Conclusi∣on, than in any one of them.

Mr. G.

May not a Man use dif∣ferent Arguments to prove the same thing?

Esq F.

Yes, he may: But this Author has not done it; for to prove his Conclusion, he makes use of the same Argument in every Dialogue,

with variety of Reflections upon several Persons and Things.

Mr. G.

Is he not to be commen∣ded for it?

Esq F.

He is to be commended for his variety of Reflections; for this makes his Book pleasant. But when he would pretend to make out so material an Objection against the Reformation, it cannot sure be so very commendable, to make use of the same Argument over and o∣ver again.

But this seems to be an allowed Practice amongst you: for altho all your most considerable Objections have been answer'd an hundred times; yet are we daily troubled with them, as if they had never been heard of before; and almost every Fortnight out comes that a∣stonishing Question, Where was your Church before Luther?

Mr. G.

If he makes use but of one Argument, it is however such an Ar∣gument

as ought to perswade every honest Man to forsake the Refor∣mation, which is founded upon a Principle that gives a Man leave to be in England a Protestant, in Ger∣many a Lutheran, in Hungary a So∣cinian; and to change his Religion as often as he pleases.

Esq F.

This is all out of Pax Vobis: But how does it appear that a Man may thus change his Re∣ligion from that Principle, That the Scriptures, as any Man of sound Judgment interprets them, are the Rule of Faith?

Mr. G.

Because a Man may al∣ter his Judgment, and interpret Scripture otherwise than he did; and since he may lawfully stick to that Interpretation which he him∣self puts upon it, he may change his Religion as often as he thinks fit to alter his Judgment.

Esq, F.

That does not always follow: for a Man may perhaps

think fit to profess an alteration of his Judgment without any just Reason, or without having made any inquiry, whether he may safe∣ly do it or no; and if he does so, the alteration of his Judg∣ment is so far from being a Rea∣son why he should change his Re∣ligion, that it is in it self a great fault.

Mr. G.

But suppose he does find Reason to alter his Judgment, may he not then change his Religi∣on?

Esq F.

Yes, he is bound to do it, altho he should change Truth for Error.

Mr. G.

And so he may turn from one thing unto another, un∣til he has turn'd as often as there are Points in the Compass, and be a true Child of the Reformation all the while.

Esq F.

He is bound to alter his Perswasion as oft as he meets with sufficien•• Arguments to con∣vince him that he ought to do so. But there is a great deal of difference between what is Truth, and what a Man believes to be so. A Man is bound to act accord∣ing to an erroneous Conscience, un∣til he is better informed; but it does not therefore follow, that his Conscience is not erroneous; or that if he has had opportuni∣ties of undeceiving himself, he is not in a very dangerours Condi∣tion. Now the Author of Pax Vobis would insinuate that those of the Reformation do believe that to be true, which any Church, or particular Persons judg to be so, and that there is a Liberty allowed amongst them to profess, or deny any Tenets whatsoever.

Mr. G.

How can it be otherwise, since there are such different Opini∣ons amongst them, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 some of them have so often changed their minds, and yet have still continued true Members of the Reformation?

Esq F.

The Reformation is a word which denotes all those, whe∣ther Churches or Persons, which have left the Communion of the Church of Rome. Now it may hap∣pen that some of those which have left that Communion, may separate from it by degrees, others all at once; that some of them may main∣tain some of that Church's Errors, and others may maintain Errors as bad as any which she holds. But does it therefore follow, because all these are stiled Members of the Reforma∣tion upon the account of their not living in Communion with the Church of Rome, that they are all in the right, and that a man may lawfully hold whatever is maintain∣ed by any of them?

Mr. G.

They all pretend to sound∣ness of judgment; and their com∣mon Rule of Faith is, Scripture as interpreted by men of sound judg∣ment.

Esq F.

The Rule is good, but their pretences are not. For a man may think his judgment to be sound, when it really is not; and although he is bound to adhere to that inter∣pretation, which for want of sound∣ness of judgment he puts upon Scri∣pture, yet the interpretation is not therefore at all the truer, nor can it be an indifferent thing for me or any one else to approve or not to approve of it.

Mr. G.

One would think that it were an indifferent thing, when there are and have been so many great men amongst you who main∣tain Opinions contrary the one to the other, and yet all pretend to truth, and to be true Members of the Reformation.

E. F.

I tell thee once again, That a man is said to be a true Member of the Reformation by being supposed to have left the Communion of the Church of Rome; but yet that eve∣ry one who has left that Commu∣nion, may not in all respects main∣tain what is Truth, although he may pretend to it. And therefore a man that has left that Communion, is still obliged to make a strict in∣quiry whether it be lawful for him to embrace the terms of that other Communion into which he has ad∣mitted himself; and after he has done so, not to desert it without good reason.

Mr. G.

Does not every Member of the Reformation pretend to have reason on his side?

Esq F.

But the great question is, whether he has reason or no.

Sir, I cannot stay with you at present any longer; but before I go, I will leave with you one familiar

instance, which seems to me to be a sufficient confutation of that whole Book which we have discoursed of.

Mr. G.

I long to hear it.

Esq F.

Suppose the Emperor of the Turks should turn Christian.

Mr. G.

I wish he would.

Esq F.

You mean Roman Catho∣lick.

Mr. G.

Unless he turns Roman Catholick, he might as well never turn Christian.

Esq F.

We will let that alone at present. You may well think that after his conversion he will be very desirous to have his people turn, as well as himself; and you must needs allow it to be very reasonable for the whole Empire to do it.

Mr. G.

Nothing can be more reasonable.

Esq F.

Now suppose one man turns, because thoroughly convinced of the Excellency of the Christian

Religion; Another retains his won∣ted kindness for his old Mahumetan way of Worship, but yet for fear of losing by it, turns too. A third, to gain somewhat by it, which he knows not otherwise how to get, turns Christian, although his senti∣ments are the same with those of the second. A fourth has some high flying hopes, and although he does not turn at present, yet he is ready to do it when ever it is required of him. It is therefore lawful to turn Christi∣an, or to be ready to turn, to save by it, or to get by it, or in hopes of getting, for this reason, or for that reason, or for any other reason whatsoever.

Mr. G.

You are pleasant, Sir; but I do not perceive the consequence of this Discourse.

Esq F.

Think on it, and you will find it to be as good a consequence, as that which your Author so much insists upon.

But I can stay no longer, Parson, Farewell, I should be glad to see you at my House.

Mr. G.

I shall not forget to wait upon you.

Esq F.

You must forgive me for calling you Parson, still. I protest I cannot forget my old Compellati∣on.

Mr. G.

Sir, I am your Servant.