Pian piano, or, Intercourse between H. Ferne, Dr. in divinity and J. Harrington, Esq. upon occasion of the doctors censure of the Common-wealth of Oceana.

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Title
Pian piano, or, Intercourse between H. Ferne, Dr. in divinity and J. Harrington, Esq. upon occasion of the doctors censure of the Common-wealth of Oceana.
Author
Ferne, H. (Henry), 1602-1662.
Publication
London :: Printed for Nath. Brook ...,
1656.
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Subject terms
Harrington, James, 1611-1677. -- Commonwealth of Oceana.
Great Britain -- History -- Commonwealth and Protectorate, 1649-1660.
Cite this Item
"Pian piano, or, Intercourse between H. Ferne, Dr. in divinity and J. Harrington, Esq. upon occasion of the doctors censure of the Common-wealth of Oceana." In the digital collection Early English Books Online. https://name.umdl.umich.edu/A41215.0001.001. University of Michigan Library Digital Collections. Accessed May 17, 2024.

Pages

Page 42

The fourth Quaere.

Whether the Temptations of advancing did sway more with the Many in the Commonwealth, than with the Few under the Monarchies of the He∣brews, (that is) under the Kings of Judah, Israel, or the High Priests, when they came to be Princes? and whether other story be not (as to this Quaere conformable unto that of Scripture.

Page 43

The Doctor's Answer.

WHether greater Temptations in the Hebrew Government before or after they had Kings, seems little material by comparing them to learn, and as little to your purpose, till what you suppose be granted, (viz.) that the Government before they had Kings, was in your sense a Common-wealth. But as for all Forms that have been popular, or shall be, still the Temptations are the more powerful or dangerous, as to the change of Go∣vernment. This put them upon an in∣convenience by often changing their Generals of Armies, and upon often banishing them, or any great Citizens, when their just deserts had made them honoured and beloved; and this I suppose puts you upon a ne∣cessity in one place of defending the Ostracisme as no Punishment, and

Page 44

the People of Rome as not ingrate∣ful in banishing Camillus.

Reply.

IF to doubt whether Israel were a Commonwealth in my sense be excusable in one that will take no notice of the Elders that stood wth Moses, nor why Gideon being Judge refused nevertheless to be King; yet the league that was made between Judah and Benjamin in the first, and the sentence that was given by the whole Congre∣gation, with the War thereupon levied by the people onely, with∣out so much as a Judge or Dicta∣tor, in the last Chapter of the book of Judges, evinces my sense, and that of all Reasonable Men; wherefore the comparison desired by me is plainly material: and your evasion a poor shift, below a

Page 45

man of parts, or well meaning.

For albeit Israel for the far grea∣ter time of the Commonwealth before the Kings was Anarchy, the most subject State of such a Go∣vernment unto confusion; yet a∣bating the conspiracy of Abimelech (made King of the men of Sichem) there was (as I remember) no di∣sturbance from ambition, nor stri∣ving to be uppermost, of which af∣ter the Kings, there was no end. For (to omit David's destroying of the house of Saul, and reigning in his stead (as done with good warrant) you have Absolom levying War a∣gainst his father; Jeroboam an Ar∣rant knave breaking the Empire of Rehoboam a hair-brain'd fool in two pieces, whence the children of Judah turning Sodomites, (a King. 14. 24.) and they of Israel Idola∣ters; You have Baasha conspiring against Nadab King of Israel, mur∣thering him, destroying all the

Page 46

Posterity of Jeroboam, and reig∣ning in his stead: Zimri (Captain of the Chariots) serving Asa the son with the same sauce, when he was drunk (killing all of his kin∣red, that pissed againg the Wall,) as Baasha the father had done Na∣dab, when (may chance) he was sober: Omri hereupon made Cap∣tain by the people, and Zimri after he had reigned seven daies, bur∣ning himself; The people of Is∣rael when Zimri was burnt, divi∣ding into two parts, one for Omri, and the other for Tibni, who is slain in the dispute; whereupon Omri out-does all the Tyrants that went before him, and when he has done, leaves Ahab his son, the heir of his Throne and virtue: You have Jehu destroying the Fa∣mily of Ahab, giving the flesh of Jezebel unto the dogs, and recei∣ving a pretty Present from those of Samaria, seventy heads of his

Page 47

Masters sons in Baskets. To Asa and Jehoshaphat of the Kings of Ju∣dah belongeth much reverence; but the wickedness of Athalia, who upon the death of her son Ahaziah, that shee might reign, murthered all her Grand children, but one stoln away, which was Joash, was repaid by that one in the like coin, who also was slain by his servants; so was his son A∣mastah that reigned after him: and about the same time Zachariah King of Israel, by Shallum, who reigned in his stead, and Shallum was smitten by Manahim, who reigned in his stead, (Battail Royal in Shoo-lane) Pekahah the son of Manahim was smitten by Pekah one of his Captains, who reigned in his room, Pekah by Hoshea, who having reigned Nine years in his stead, was carried by Salmanezer King of Assyria with the Ten Tribes into Captivity. Will Judah

Page 48

take a warning? Yes, Hezekiah, the next, is a very good King, but Manasseh his son, like the rest, a shedder of innocent blood; to him succeedeth Ammon, fathers own child, who is slain by his servants: Josiah once again is a very good King; but Jehoahaz, that died by the heels in Egypt deserv'd his end, nor was Jehoiakim the brother of the former (who became Tribu∣tary unto Pharaoh) any better; In whose Reign & his successor Zede∣chia's was Judah led into Captivity by Nebuchadnezzar, (the common end of battail Royal) where I leave any man to judge how far the uni∣ty of a person tends to the unity of Government, and whether the temptations of advancing (to use your Phrase) were greater in the Commonwealth or in the Monar∣chies of the Hebrews. It were easie to shew, if you had not e∣nough already, that the High

Page 49

Priests when they came to be Princes, were never a barrel better herring; whereas that there is no such work in Ʋenice Switz, or Hol∣land, you both know, and might if you did not wink as easily see. All's one, It is, for it is as you have said, nay and more in all forms that have been Popular or shall be, still the Temptations are more powerful and dangerous as to the change of Govern∣ment; this put them upon great in∣conveniences by often changing their Generals of Armies. A pound of Clergy, for which take an ounce of wisdome, in this Maxim evin∣ced by Machiavel. Prolongation of Magistracy is the ruine of popular Go∣vernment. The not often chan∣ging their Generals or Dictators was the bane of the Common-wealths both of Rome and of Israel, as by the corruption of Samuel's sons (Moss that groweth not upon a roling stone) is apparent: And

Page 50

for the banishment of Great Men, Name me one that since those Go∣vernments were settled, hath been banished from Ʋenice, Switz or Holland. The Examples in Rome are but two that can be objected by a rational man in Seven hun∣dred years, and I have answered those in my Book; For the Ostra∣cisme, though I hold it a foolish Law, yet where the people have not had the prudence to found their Government upon an Agra∣rian, I shew'd you out of Reason, A∣ristotle and experience, that it is a shift they will be put to, whether a punishment, or not; Though no man, that is versed in the Greek story, can hold it to have been so esteem'd.

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