Rusticus ad academicos in exercitationibus expostulatoriis, apologeticis quatuor The rustick's alarm to the rabbies, or, The country correcting the university and clergy, and ... contesting for the truth ... : in four apologeticall and expostulatory exercitations : wherein is contained, as well a general account to all enquirers, as a general answer to all opposers of the most truly catholike and most truly Christ-like Chistians [sic] called Quakers, and of the true divinity of their doctrine : by way of entire entercourse held in special with four of the clergies chieftanes, viz, John Owen ... Tho. Danson ... John Tombes ... Rich. Baxter ... by Samuel Fisher ...

CHAP. VI.

HAving done with the Doctrine concerning the universality of the true Lights being in some measure in all men, which leads such as are led by it unto life, and with the rest, which the Priests generally oppose the Qua. in, as at first propounded. I shall now fall upon some brief Animad∣version of their piteous Arguments against it, and poor Answers to our plain Ar∣guments for it, wherewith the Priests resist and withstand the Truth, as its testified to by the Qua.-so called, as to that point of perfection, as to the possibility of Purgation, and real Remission of sin, and full freedome from any more Commission of it, whether actually or assentatively in this life.

As for R. B. and I. T. As after a long unquiet quarrel with the Qua. (who call men to no other at all) about the Light and Spirit of Christ, as such foolish fires as will lead men into nothing but Bogs and Praecipices, page 84. and much more of that sort, themselves fall a calling and commending all men to the same, in many good words of exhortation, specially in the last Sermon of their book, which consists of Exhortations to the Light, Doctrine or Teaching of Christ within (excepting here and there (as the manner of most Parish Ministers is) a Perenthesis or interpositition of now and then some dirty dashes and filthy flerts against it, to sence men off from ever coming too neer it, lest it make them wiser then their Teachers and Leaders, and so lead and take them off from taking much more heed to the wind of their whiffling words and tangling talk of Truth for Tith) So they are principled against the foresaid perfections atainbleness in this life, as is evident in other of Baxter's, and Ts his works: Yet in this Book of theirs that I have at present to do with I mind not at present where they contradict it, but are found in sundry expressions much rather confirm∣ing and preaching it unawares, and ministring Mediums in proof of it E.G. p. 12. where they tell us thus:

R.B. J.T. Christ leads alwayes in the right way, so that whosoever follows him.

Rep. And some do surely, these men are not so ignorant sure as to deny that.

R.B. J.T. Shall be directed aright in his way, be guided into the way of peace.

Rep. That must needs be out of all sin, for every sin or transgression is the wrong way, the way of wickedness, and theres no peace saith God un∣to the wicked. And p. 13. where they tell us thus:

R.B. J.T. Christs words have such precepts and revelations as make a man Spirituall, Heavenly, Wise, like unto God.

Rep. Which if any sinner be and be not rather Carnall, Earthly, Foolish unlike God, and lke the Devill, then I am yet to seek (and if these sinners

and pleaders for mens necessity of sinning while they live, and yet call themselves Saints, can tell me otherwise, let them tell me) what a Saint, and what a sinner is and p. 1.4. Where they tell us thus.

R.B. I.T. All that Christ spake.

Rep. Whose Speeches were and are successefull to accomplish their end among some at least assuredly, or else let these men speak it out, if they dare, that Christ never obtains his end in speaking to any at all to whom he speakes.

R.B. I.T. It was to ease the burthen.

Rep. And such the least in is, where ere it is, whether it be felt or no.

R.B. I.T. to direct to God.

Rep. Whom no sinner in his sins can come to.

R.B. I.T. to reform the evils in Gods worship.

Rep. Whom no evill doer or sinner in his sins can worship any more accceptably then Cain whose sacrifice was shut out while his sin lay at the door, or then David himself, whose prayer would not be heard, if he regarded iniquity in his heart, and every one does so more or lesse, while, in the least, he commits it, or else surely he would not commit it, no man doing that he hath no regard at all unto, but he who remaines yet under the De∣vills power taken captive by him at his will, having not yet attained to that liberty wherewith Christ (euen here) makes many free, and (even here) is by him attainable, if men with Paul, who throw the warfare at last at∣tain'd it, be sincere in the same way of pressing after it.

R. B. I.T. To take men off from Covetousness, Hypocrisie, and such evills as are Pernic••••us.

Rep. And if the least motion to sin (if assented to, not else) be any o∣therwise then so, and not in some measure pernicious (though some great ones may be more greatly pernicious then other some) let that of God in the conscience of these men judge, when Paul sayes the motions of sins which warr'd in his members (while he was yet under the Law, and not in the Liberty of Christ, and but in the Combate, and short of the Con∣quest) brought forth fruit in him unto death: and Iames c. 1. That if lust, be but perrmitted to conceive (as it does in such a degree as any one is led away after it) it bringeth forth sin, and sin when its finished, or brought forth . e. into its being (as it is when lust is but assented to and the mind gen∣ders to gether with it) it bringeth forth death.

R.B. J.T. With what ever else might bring nigh to God.

Rep. Whom all sin, even the least in some mea••ure, though (some more then some) separates the soul from.

R.B. J.T. And Alienate men from this present evil world.

Rep. Which every man is nigh to more or lesse till he be totally taken off and alienated utterly from the corruptions that are in it through lust.

R.B. J.T. And accordingly so were and are the effects, regeneration or new birth; Mortification of the deeds of the Body; the Salvation of Man

Rep. And if these were and are (as ye say they were and are) not only the ends, but also the effects of what Christ spake or speakes, then by such as continue to heare his voice and follow him, and not such strangers to him as ye are (and so some did, and now do, yea ever all his own sh••••p) all

these things in time, even here, both were and are attainable and attained also, that ye speak which are ipsissima, the very things we plead against you; for in the point of perfect freedom from sin wherein ye oppose us, viz. Mortification of the deeds of the body, which is never effected till every sin be destroyed or subdued, so as not to be so much as assented to, much lesse acted, the very least being a deed or member of the body of it, and mortification (effected) no lesse, but somewhat more, if more can be, then a common killing in our common English acceptation of it, even a mang∣ling the dead body of it all to pieces: Regeneration, which however taken by our dimm Divines for the first act of conversion onely, or beginning to face about from sin towards God, is a real new birh, or being begotten back into that divine nature, which man in sin is degeneraled from, and not onely so, but also (as taken in its right latitude and consummation, not initiation only, for the thing or end effected (& so ye speak) and not pro∣secuted onely, the growth up in that image of Christs divine nature, in whom was no sin, to the very measure of the fulness of his stature Eph. 4. and salvation of man, which is not in, but from the sin first, before ever there be any right rejoycing in God, or any true salvation from the sor∣rows that are entail'd to it, by him who came to save his people from their sins: Who in this sense mainly is sent forth as a light to enlighten us, and raised up as an horn of salvation in us his people, that we being delivered from all our Enemies (among which sin, even in our selves is the chiefest) and from the hands of all that hate us (as all sinners do such as preach to them that unpleasing doctrine of perfect purging from the sins they love) might serve him without fear in holinesse and righteousnesse all the dayes of our life.

For as much therefore as in this book of R.B. and T.D. I find them (at present) uttering so much as that above and perhaps more (but that I ha∣sten) that makes for it, and yield us Arguments out of that their own Ar∣mory in proof of that perfect freedom from sin here which we plead for, but nothing directly against it, though they are against it, I shall therefore (having made use of that little of theirs above that is very much to our purpose against them) quit these 2. R.B. and I.T. And addresse more directly to I.O. and T.D's. Deliveries of themselves, as against that Doctrine.

And as for I.O. I have so much the lesse to say to him by how much 'tis but little that he meddles in that matter throughout that whole book of his I have herein had to do with, but for as much as that little in bulk is as stark naught as it's nothing to his purpose he must excuse me if, for truths sake, I be as blunt with him, as he is keen and bloody against the Teachers of it, and as plain in opening his contradiction to him, as 'tis plain that he contradicts himselfe in what he sayes against it in the ve∣ry sight and open view of all men.

I confess he dilates not so largely against it, as T.D. does; but barely and nakedly nibbles about the business: Yet he puts forth such a Paw as wherby we may guesse how rudely & unreasonably Rampant he would be in his repulses of us in that point, if we that hold it were not as much out of his reach, as 'tis out of the reach of the best wisdome he hath

to render one solid Reason at all against it.

One thing that I.O. sayes, whereby we may clearly conclude him to be one who as cloudily concludes there's no attainment to a perfect purging from sin in this Life, is this viz. Having in proof of its perfection from its efficacy to effect its own end spoken above of the immedi∣ate end of the Scripture to be direction in our knowledge of God, and that obedience that is due to him, that doing his will (as none when he sins does) we may attain salvation (which is from sin sure, or from nothing) and the enjoyment of him∣selfe and told us that the perfection of all disci∣pline consists in its efficacy to effect its own end, so that that onely is to be held perfect which is suffici∣ent to effect its end, and that imperfect which is not of force to effect it, and how in this very respect the Scripture is a most perfect rule, as it accomplishes its foresaid end: and telling us also that the use of the Scripture by which this end is effected, is on∣ly in this present world, sith the Scripture ceases, as to all its uses ends and purposes, in that to come, and consequently must either effect that its end, even our perfect salvation from sin here, or not at all, & so prove it selfe to be contrary to what I.O. sayes of it, viz. no perfect Rule, he tells us withall to the utter contradiction of his asserti∣on as to the Scridtures perfection (being it semes principled against the Qua. as to the point of perfecting holyness so as to cleansing from all sin, and left hee run upon that dangerous rock of runing out of all lust while he lives here) that its a most false thing to affirm that the holy Scripture doth or can, while we are in this world, obtain all its own end, in respect of us, which end he had said before is our obeying God, and doing his will (which is not to sin, 1 Iohn 2.1.) and our salvation, which is from sin: Thus Incidit in Scyllam, &c. The man of sin to avoid one ex∣tream, which he is extreamly against, viz. being ru∣ined against the rock of perfection, he runs down extreamly into another, viz. the gulf of self contra∣diction and confusion. Verbum sat sapienti, I need do no more to the opening of this round to wisemen, then to set it down before them thus (for this is the sum of I. Os. sayings) nothing is perfect, but what effects its end, the end of the scrip∣ture is making men perfect, this end the Scripture cannot effect in this Life, for heres no perfection, nor can the scripture effect this end in the life to come, for there it ceases to work, and effects nothing at all; yet the Scripture, the perfection of which can consist in no other thing then its effecting its end, which end it never effects, is for a••l that most perfect.

What more I.O. sayes in short, is this, That the Fanaticks (so he is pleas'd still to stile the Qua. a seed among whom some at least are the most sincere Saints that are at this day upon the earth) are not perfect, t••ei••lyes, deceits, bainour wickednesses, and hypocrisies, do testifie to us; but in very deed, punishments and imprisonments ought to be inflicted upon them that impudently glory, that they are free from all these, and other sins, even the least.

Rep. I.O. it seems, and the rest of his Gang of Ghostly Fathers, and godly Gameliels, are sen∣tenced already by himself, as worthy to be persecuted in such wise (as the Qua. have been at Oxford by his means) and punisht, and imprisoned, as Impudent Boasters, if ever they shall pretend (whilst here on earth) to be free from lying, and fraud, and wickedness, and hypocrisie, and other sins (specially if from the least, or from all un∣cleanness of flesh and spirit, all ungodliness and worldly lusts, which yet they'l tell men sometimes (in a sound of stoln words) from those Texts of Paul, 2 Cor. 7.1. 8 Tit. 11.12. 13. they must cleanse themselves from, deny, and have nothing to do with in this present world, because else there's no purging in the world to come: So that we see what fruits we are to expect from that Fraternity of false Prophets, and what little likelihood of peoples being much profited by these stealers and sellers of the Apostles good words, when they believe it even impossible that the things they impose in the Name of God, themselves, or any people here, where they say it must be done if ever should be impowred to perform.

2. I query, Whether if Paul had come to Oxford in the time of I.Os. Vice-Chancellorship there, and made the same modest confession to the praise of God (no other then which the best of the Qua. ever made) which he made, that he was once (in his own conceit) alive without the Law (or till he and the Law, i. e. the Light, came to face each other) but when that came, then he saw sin was alive in him, and he dead, and that he was (then while beginning to war with it) sold under it, and captivated by it, and wretched by reason of it, Rom. 7. but that now (when he wrote this) the Law of the Spirit of Life (or Light in his mind) which was by Christ, had made him free from th••t Law of sin and dea••h (which warr'd in his mem∣bers, and oft enslav'd him) I say, when Paul made this, and many other modest acknowledgements of Gods Grace and Power towards him, in de∣livering him, and how now he walkt not after the flesh, but the Spirit, and how holily, and justly, and unblameably he and other Apostles behaved them∣selves, 1 Thes. 2.1. 2. 3. &c. and should have said (as to the same effect he did) that they were no lyars, nor deceivers, nor wicked ones, nor hypocrites, and 2 Cor. 13.8. could do nothing against the truth (as every sin is) but for the truth, and such like; Whether I.O. would have punisht him as an Impu∣dent Boaster, yea or no, and have put him in B••cardo, where besides whippings, and other punishments and abu••es, some of the Qua. have been put? if yea, see what kind of provision the poor Flock of Christ

must expect from out of the silken Snapsacks of these University Shep∣herds and Overseers, if they had the over-sight of all Corrective, as much as they have it Directive over Magistrates and all: And what a Generation of Godly Ministers (as they have been call'd) have grown up under pre∣tence of Reformation of late, even in old England, which has been so long renewing [as well as in New-England, which is now growing old a∣gain, where they punish the same seed to death•• where however they idolize Christs holy Apostles now they are dead, would no less then perse∣cute them were they now alive; if nay, I would know Quo Iure? some Reason, if that these Rabbies can render a right one, why the Saints that walk and live in, and after the same holy Spirit now, that leads into all truth, and no transgression, and witness the same freedome from the Law of sin thereby, should for making the same confession to the glory of Gods Grace be so ill used (as I.O. would have them) as Impudent Boasters, any more then them of old?

What ever the Qua. do and are, who by the Grace of God being what they are, glory in nothing of their own, knowing they have nothing but what they have received. I shall here clear many Clergy men more then any men (unless some Lawyers be as clear as them) from that so punishable crime of glorying and boasting in being free from the least sin, or from those fore-named grosser evils either; for as if they should be found glorying in freéd••me from either, they would be found lyars one way more then now they are, so in truth both those kinds of wicked, hypocritical, de∣ceitful lyars, I mean in plain terms, many Priests, and some Lawyers, who can neither of them live on poor mens labours [as many of them do in all lands, any longer then while men lye dead in their trespasses and sins, are [for ought I find] so far from glorying in their immunity from those and all o∣ther iniquities, that like those old Christian Enemies to the Cross of Christ, Phil. 3.18. 19. whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, who mind earthly things, and whose glory is in their shame, they glory yet in that immu∣nity and freedome they can get from the powers that are intoxicated with the wine of the wrath of their fornications, to commit all evil, and so continue in those lyes, deceits, frauds, cheats, hypocrisies, bloody persecutions, spoilings of mens goods, devouring Widows houses for Tythes, and for a pretence making long prayers, and much more wickedness and prophaneness, which, from these Law and Gospel spoilers, is long since gone forth into all lands.

By that little Cloud then which appears dropping from I.Os. pen, though no bigger then a mans hand, we can see his complexion, and what muddy stuff was working, what bloody storms of persecution were brew∣ing in I.Os. mind against that more tender, and true Tenet of perfect pur∣ging from sin in this life, and the innocent Asserters of it; and so I shall take him, till he either takes in again that terrible tale of his, or at least till he tells the world, that it repents him that ere he told it for a joynt Antagonist to the Qu••. together with T.D. in that point. Nevertheless T.D. being the only man that mannages that matter, more at large, on behalf of himself and many others, I shall without more ado let this short Return stand as to I.Os. brief opposition of us in this point of perfection, and the ra∣ther, sith I believe it will be long enough ere it return from him to us a∣gain

with any solid or satisfactory answer, and address my self to deal more down-rightly, yet no otherwise then uprightly neither with T.Ds. writing, with whom I, together with R. H. G. W. and A.P. also once have had to do about it by word of mouth.

The second Quest. between him and the Qua. as himself relates both it, and what little he thought fit, which is scarce one word to his ten, in such manner also as might best serve his turn, to set down of our Discourse with him about it, 1 Pamp. was this; Whether in this life the Saints attain to a state of perfection, or freedome from sin? Which we (as to the possi∣bility thereof, viz. that they may, and also as to the necessity that they must be purged from sin in this life, or no where, there being no Purgatory in the world to come) holding in the affirmative, T.D. brings in himself, re∣plying thus; T.D. Your Doctrine of perfection is against the tenor of the Scri∣pture, let us hear what you can say for the proof of it: And to R. H. urging 1 Ioh. 3.9. Whosoever is born of God, doth not commit sin. T.D. replyes thus, viz.

T.D. That cannot be meant of freedome from sin, but either there is an Em∣phasis in the word (sin) intending under that general ••e••m one kind or sort of sin, which is spoken of, 1 John 5.16. There is a sin unto death: Or if not in the Substantive, on the Verb Poiei, which notes to make a trade of business of sin, as 'tis explain'd, ver. 8. where he uses the same Verb, for the Devil sinneth from the beginning: He hath never ceased to sin since he began, thus indeed the Saints sin not, but a course of sin is broken off, and there is not such a free trade between the Soul and sin, as in the state of unregeneracy, whereof this is given for one character, that cannot cease to sin, 2 Pet. 2.14.

Rep. 1. Here thou art in thy old wonted way of scruing the Scripture besides the proper import, and ordinary literal sense of the words, and true mind of the Spirit in them, into thy own perverse mind and meaning, why can∣not that be meant of freedome from sin, but that men who are not fully willing to be freed from it, and are in love with it, and being loath to leave it, are loath to see it? Its more hard not to see, then it is to see that it is meant of freedome from sin: What should, or can it be meant of else? Are not freed me from sin, and not committing of sin, made synominous as committing sin, and not being freed from it, are made by Christ himself opposites to each other, Ioh. 8.32. 33. 34. 35. 36. The Iews thought they had the fullest freedome that men could have in this world, because they were the visible Church, Abrahams Seed, and such like externals as they then trusted in, as ye now do, though not yet freed from that thing call'd sinning, to serve the Lord alone, whose service the very Common-Prayer-Book it self was wont to call perfect freedome: But Christ learns them a∣nother Lesson, viz. that they had none of that true Gospel freedome that the saving knowledge of the truth gives, and which he makes such as continue in his words, and so are his Disciples indeed, and not in word only, as ye are, free withall, which is a full freedome in deed and truth, and not half a one, or by the halves, such as that is ye talk of, who upon the account of some private Patent, alias particular personal Election thereto from ever∣lasting, prattle to your selves of freedome from guilt, while ye remain in your filth, and of a general Iustification an•• pardon for all sins past, pre∣sent,

and to come in this world, expecting your purging or Iustification, as to Sanctification from sin and ••ncle••••ness, not in this world, but that to come: But verily, verily, I say unto you (quoth he) he that committeth sin, is yet the servant of sin, and must know, for all his boasting, he has not long to a∣bide in the House and Church of God, wherein Ishmael-like he scoffs at the right Heir Isaac, as if himself alone, who is but a Bastard, born of for∣nication, should inherit all, and will prove an out-cast himself at last be∣fore the Son, who is born of God, and free indeed, and the only true Heir of all things; full freedome from sin, and committing of it, are oppos'd to each other by Christ; therefore freedome from it, and not committing it, are the same.

To wind out of this, T.D. would seem to say somewhat, but of two things he can't tell which, but one of the two must be it, rather then the Truth: Either there is (quoth he) an Emphasis in the word sin, intending under that general term one kind of sin, viz. sin unto death; or if not in the Substantive, on the Verb Poiei, which notes to make a trade, or business of sin, as the Devil does, who sinneth from the beginning, and never ceased from sin since he began: Thus indeed the Saints sin not, &c.

Rep. As to they Emphases, they are the foolish empty conceits of thy own, and other mens brains, theres no such Emphasis either in the Substantive or Verb, as ye all prate, whereby the Spirit should be understood as speaking otherwise then he truly means, or meaning otherwise then he plainly sayes, whose words are plain to the honest heart, though not to Idol Shepherd, who by the Sword of the Lord hath his right eye utterly dark∣ned, because he hath darkned the Lords Counsel by his own words without knowledge: And if the eyes of the Seers were not shut up from seeing the very Letter they prate about, as well the mysteries of the Spirit, which the animal man can never know by all his searchings (they being revealed only by the Spirit) they might see that the Text it self makes no diffe∣rence between sinning, and committing sin, and that the one is no more Emphatical then the other: And if T.D. who in the same page 9. where he mentions the words, were not so busie in his mind about the meaning, and did not make such a warbling noyse (as shallow waters ever do more then those that are deepest) with harping at this, that, and t'other silly sense, he might in coolness have considered, that in the same ninth verse, as well as the eigth, and others about it, the Spirit makes no difference between Amartian Poiein, and Amortanein, to commit sin, and to sin, but uses them promiscuously. Ouk Amartanei, every one that abides in him sinneth not.

So ver. 8. He that commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil Amartanei sinneth from the beginning: And because T.D. seems to put an Emphasis upon the word [sinneth] as well as [committeth sin] making the word [sinneth] (as here used) to amount to somewhat more then an ordina∣ry sort of sinning, as here it intends some high or desperate degree of sin, even that which 1 Ioh. 5.16. is call'd Kat' Exoken, a sin unto death without reme∣dy, or forgiveness for ever, because never to be repented of, as in opposi∣tion to all other sins that men do commit, which (when this alone, being ever joy••'d with impenitency, is impardonable) are all, upon that true repentance they are yet in possibility of, who commit them, pard••nable, or

possible to be forgiven; for this is T. Ds. emphasis on the Substantive [Sin] (for I shall not wrong him so much as to take him meaning, as the Papists do, who put such difference between peccatum veniale, and mortale; as if some sins only without repentance were mortal, or to death, and some venial, or not to death, though not repented of at all, your Church of England opposing them in this, and holding every sin, yea, the least (unrepented of) unto death, though T. D. would have suspected me to be a Iesuite for a less matter) This concludes him that is born of God to be (even qua sic, as born of God) as easily liable to, and excludes him no more then it does the very wicked themselves, from the committing of any sin, that the wickedest can commit (except that ye call the sin against the Holy Ghost it self) which is so gross an absurdity, that he can be no spiritually wise man that does not feel him to be spiritually infatuated that so imagines: For still though the Devil sinneth, and he that is of the Devil doth nothing else (but Nicode∣mus, though a Master in Israel can't read this Birth of God (which is A∣nothen, from above of water and the Spirit, John 1.12 John 3. which blows where it lists, and the Priests hear an outward sound thereof, but know not whence it comes, nor whether it goes, nor how he is that is born of the Spirit) as plain as 'tis in the Text, which they read more then that truth tells of) yet, as he that sinneth is of the Devil, and he that is of the Devil sinneth altogether, so he that sinneth not, but doth righteousness only, is of God; and he that is born of God, and the Spirit, which is Spirit, and not flesh, sinneth not at all, but overcometh the world, and keepeth himself, that the wicked one so much as toucheth him not, 1 John 5.18. neither can he sin, even eatenus, because born of God, whose own Seed, or incorruptible word, 1 Pet. 1.23. which condemns all, and consents to no sin, remaineth in him.

Yet lest it hold not this way, T.D. puts another string to his De∣vils Bow, and shoots out another sense, as emphatically as he can, with all his might, by which notwithstanding (as he did in the other three Questions above spoken to) he hath utterly lost the Game, and given the whole Cause, and this Question contended for, so clearly (if there should be no more shooting about it) that by all his scrambling shifts, whereby he scrabbles and scraffies to gather it up again, he will, never recover of the wound that he hath unawares given to himself; for mark how his own emphasis on the Verb Poiei undoes him: It notes (quoth he) to make a trade or business of sin as the Devil does, who never ceased to sin: Thus indeed the Saints sin not, but a course of sin is broken off, and there is not such a free trade between the Soul and sin, as in the state of unregeneracy, whereof this is gi∣ven for one Character that cannot cease from sin, 2 Pet. 2.18.

Rep. To say nothing here, how that Parish Priests do make a Trade and business of sin, of preaching for hire, persecuting for Tythe, promoting the Popes Pay, and Parish posture, since they were sworn to endeavour the extir∣pation of all Popery, looking every one for his gain from his quarter, which un-Saints themselves, and states them still in unregeueracy, if T.Ds. words be true (as its sure enough they are) when he sayes thus, Indeed the Saints do not sin, this is in the state of unregeneracy, whereof this is one cha∣racter, they cannot cease from sin; for howbeit, they have long since well

nigh left off to do good, yet these and many more evils they abhor not, nor have so much as ceased from to this day.

But to let pass that, observe Secondly, How T.D. distinguishes the Saints from the Devil, and the unregenerate ones that are yet born of him, by this Character (which is the true one) of ceasing, and not ceasing from sin: The Devil (quoth he) and the unregenerate, they make a free trade and business of sin, and never cease to sin (true enough) but thus the Saints sin not, but the course of sin, which the other keep, is broken off, so that theres not this free trade between sin and their Souls, as is among others, who do hoc age∣re, sin, and cease not from it, but the Saints they cease from it.

Rep. Caiphas-like, more truth then T.D. was well aware of when he told it, even so much, and no less (and no more do we need from him) then whereby he has as fully yielded us our Question, as I have shewed he hath done all the rest we had to do with him about, excepting that of the infallibility of the Gospel Ministry affirmed by us, which yet he hath also yielded so far to towards the truth of, as will force him to give us all that too at last, sith he hath confessed the meer fallibility of their own, the ignorance of which I do not much marvel that he confesses, since he charges Christ himself with such ignorance and fallibility, as whereby (unawares to himself, and not knowing that he was such a one) he ••••ose a De∣vil to be his Minister. See page 45. 1 Pamp. which Devil yet (say we) to wit Iudas, though he prov'd so at last by transgression, falling back from that true Apostleship he once obtain'd, Act. 1. was not known to be so, because (saving T. Ds. groapable darkness) he was not so from the begin∣ning, nor when Christ chose him, but one of the Twelve that had the Spirit, as the other eleven had, Matth. 10.20. and when he fell into the deceit, and so became Diabolos, alias, one that acts by deceit, and abode not in the Truth, before ever there was any appearance of it to the Dis∣ciples, Christ was not so ignorant of it, but that he knew it as well as Iu∣das did himself.

But as to the Questiou again, which is, Whether in this life the Saints may attain to such a state of freedome from sin, as not to sin, but to cease from it, and live without it? T.D. sayes nay, we say yea: Who shall be judge? What Witness have we to our Assertion? let that of God in all Conscien∣ces judge, and let T.Ds. Witness be taken for us against himself; yea, what need we further Witness? ye your selves, all people that can read, may read it under his own hand in his Answer to us; viz. That whereas the Devil and his Children sin, and whilst his cease not from it any more then their Father who begets them to it; the Saints do not sin thus; but by this cha∣racter are to be known from the sinners, who cease not from it, viz. in that the Saints cease from sin, which is indeed the very thing required to be ceased from, & therefore possible to be done by all them that have that sam•• mind of Christ, 1 Cor. 2.16. Phil. 2.5. 1 Pet. 4.1. even by the ••ame Power whereby it was done in himself, for as much as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, a••m your selves likewise with the same mind, for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from s••n. Thus T.D. suo se ingul••vit gla••••••, hath laid his cau••e a bleeding, and wounded it to death with his own wea

Yet least T.D. should begin to pick up his crums and fight us again wit•• such foolish fragments as these, viz. that though the Saints do sometimes cease from sin, are not always sinning yet they may sin, again and fall into soul en∣ormities, (which, what ere they are, our Sinner like Saints use to call but infirmities, when a Professor commits them) as David did through weak∣nesse, &c.

Rep. 1. This is not to the Question, which (as T.D. undertakes it a∣gainst us) is not whether those men call'd Saints cannot sin any more, or not, after once they come upon a true account under that domination of Saints; but whether such a state, as to cease from sinning be attainable in this life yea or nay? as to the other, we know well enough what to say of it, as occasion is, but as for this about which sub judice lis est, T.D. hath con∣sented to us in it, and we shall take him at his word.

And for as much as T.D. here so plainly asserts it that the Saints do at least sometimes cease from sin, are not alwayes sinning, but have the course of it, which the wicked keep on in, broken off, this minds me of another contra∣diction and crosse whet which he gives to himselfe out hf his Crosse Bow; for how is this consistent with his Reply to G. W. p. 6.7. of his 2. Pamp. where to T. Ds. absur'd positions viz. that a believers person with his works are accepted with God, though his works be not perfect, G. W. Answering thus, viz. here he would have believers like the Priests, who sin in the best of their performances (as they confesse) but I say the believers workes are wrought in God, and these works of God are perfect, As for our confession (quoth T. D.) 'tis agreeable to Scripture: There's not a man on earth that doth good, and sin∣neth not, Eccles. 7.20. i.e. That sinneth not in doing good, inquity of holy things is spoken of, Exod. 28.38. Duties which are holy for the matter are iniqui••y, for the manner of performance.

Rep. By which it seemes T.D. judges, there is such a continuall course of sinning in the Saints, as that they cannot cease from it at all, for if while they are doing good, and performing duty they are sinning and doing iniquity, then how much more while they are doing materiall evill and iniquity it self, and so consequently cease not from it at all;: Which if they do not, then how do they cease as T.D. sayes they do? heres another stabb with his own Dagge••, which T.D. gives himself, whose words are such Swords to himself, and agree ••o well together by the eares among themselves that a man need but bring them out upon the open Stage, where such as are minded to behold the battell may see them, falling out, and fencing against each other, and killing both their Master and one another.

And now I have that passage upon this occasion under hand, one word more to it a••o••e it passe (for 'tis not worth returning to it again) if a be∣lievers works, which (as G. W. truly said) are wrought in God, and (say I) by God in them, & T. D. himselfe from Isa. 26.12. dares not deny it, any more then I do deny that, all ma••s ••on righteousnesse wrought of himselfe, before and out of faith in the light are dung, unclean things and filthy rags from Isa. 64.6. Phil. 3.8. If I say a believers wo••k•• be not perfect, and his doing good be sin, and his duties iniquity, let me ask thee T.D. doth God, who works the believers works in them, work works that are not perfect, but imperfect? and if thou say, what he works at first in be∣lievers

is but in part of what he will do, from 1 Cor. 13. Now we know in part, &c.

Rep. Remember what I told thee above; that in part is one thing, and imperfect is another, grace, holinesse, &c. in part is a perfect gift, ev••∣ry dram of it, as well as the highest degree of it, though 'tis not so much in measure, as every spark of fire is perfect fire, though not so great a fire as the flame it comes from.

But what do I talking of not p••rf••ct? thou countest the best performances of the best Saints evill, sin, iniquity: does God then, who works all his Saints works in and for them (absit blasphemia) work evill, sin and ini quity?

2 Thou sayst though a believers works are not perfect, but the best of them sin and iniquity, yet God accepts both believers and their works: hath ini∣quity then acceptance with God? tis more then I can yet receive for truth, unlesse thou scratch and scrape out of the Scripture such texts as tell us he hath no pleasure in it: I know he taketh pleasure in his Saints, Psal 149. but that shewes that such as you, who take pleasure in pleading for ini••u••••y are none of the Saints (what ere ye call your selves) that he take, pleasure in.

Ye use to say to God in your prayers. O Lord th••u art of purer eyes then to behold the least iniquity without abho••ring it, and the subiects of it, and such like, yet (to go round again) behold T.D. sayes believers works are sin iniquity, and yet God takes pleasure in, or accepts b••th the believer and his works.

Finally I know so much of such Saints as your selves are Isa. 1.10 to 20. that 'tis iniquity even your sol••mn meetings, and appointed fasts and feasts, but God takes no pleasure in them, yea his s••ul hates, loathes and detests them.

But he hath a people and a sort of Saints ye know not, whose solemn meet∣ings and sac••ifices are as incense before him, who are not sinners (as ye confesse ye are) in all they do, nor are their duties and doings of good, by his power, sin, evill, and iniquity: and these and their services (while ye and all yours are a smoak, and stink in his nose) are a sweet smelling savour to ••im, in all the good they do.

3. As to a mans falling into sin again, after he hath once ceased from it, I know no necessity of that; which is the matter ye have to prove or else ye prove nothing at all to your own purpose, who hold that men must needs sin, while they are in the body and cannot possibly do otherwise; but I know a necessity (let men sin as often and as long as they will) of ceasing to si••, and of leaving it off, before they leave the body, otherwise if they dy not to it, but but live in it till they dy, and dy in it (as Christ threatned the Pharisees they should do) 'twere good for them had they never been born; there being no place for repentance from or purgation from it after death and notwithstanding your pretended necessity of a••l mens sinning while they breath bodily here on earth, yet I know not only A necessity, as aforesaid, unless they mean (the Tree lying as it falls (as ye use to preach) and the eter∣nall Judgement finding all men as death leaves them) to be remedilessly miserable for ever; but a possibility also by the grace vouchsafed (if them∣selves be not wanting in its improvement) of ceasing finally from sinning,

while in the body; nor (sith T. D. confesses the Saints do cease from sin, and its continued cou••se is broken off in them) can any man tell me why the••e should be less possibility of ceasing from sin, or more necessity of sinning to morrow then to day, or next day then to morrow, and from that time of a mans first abstaining from what evil the Light in his conscience convinces him of, and condemns him for, and so successively onward to his lives end? the same power that kept him to day, being as all-sufficiently able (as he keeps to it) though the Temptation daily comes, to keep him from the transgression to morrow, and the next day, and even for ever: And who can tell me, why he that withstood one temptation to any transgression by the Light and Power of God, may not as well (if in his will he turn not from the same Power, which is alwayes nigh, and ready to keep him) with∣stand another, and ••o another, and so all, so as to escape the transgression? And why he that was not drunk, nor lewd, nor proud, nor injuri••us, nor w••cked, nor unrighteous, nor deceitful, nor abominable, nor disorderly to day, must needs be so another time? his being subject to passions, pollutions, ex∣travagancies, vanities, inordinancies of mind, is but an argument to evince how much the more need he hath at all times to stand upon his guard, and to put on the Armour of the Light, and keep the stricter watch to it, which who so does shall find the Power of it in him prevailing more and more in the warfare, to the perfect overcoming, and the bringing f••rth of Iudgement in him unto victory at the last, but who so does not, while he stands, take heed to his way by it (as young men are bid, in order to the cleansing of their way, Psa. 119.9) There is not I confess more necessity nor possibility of the others standing, then there is of this mans falling in∣to mischief.

Howbeit, which way soever the man in medio is swayed, whether by the lustings of the flesh to covetousness, pride, envy, hatred, deceit, unrighteous∣ness, lasciviousness, revenge, &c. to mind and walk after the flesh, or by the lustings of the Spirit, to love, peace, purity, meekness, temperance, patience, &c. or which way soever that man is born and begotten, whether by the Spirit of God from above, or the Spirit of the Devil from beneath, which in him lust∣eth unto evil, &c. I••m. 4.5. and consequently whose child soever he is at any time of the twain, which is according to the prevalency, and predo∣minancy, and perminency of this or that Seed in him, viz. the Seed or Word of God, or that lying Word or Seed of the Serpent, for his he is still to whom ••e o∣beyes, yet this is sure enough, as I said before, that he that abides in that which is of God sinneth not, 1 Ioh. 3.6. and he that sinneth is gone from that, and born and begotten by the Devil another way, even after his Image, and he that is so, is of the Devil, and a man of sin, and sinneth uncessantly as his Father doth, who hath begot him into his likeness, and he that doth true righteousness is born of God to it, and he that's born of God, and bears his Image, which longer then any man doth, he is not of God, sinneth not, overcome•• the world, keepeth himself that the wicked one toucheth h••m not, neither can he sin, while so, because he is born of God, and the Seed of God remaineth, is head, permanent, prevalent, and preheminent in him; and so which of these two sorts men are, matters not much to the point, sinners (as such) are sinners ever, and not Saints, and Saints are Saints ever (as such) and not Sinners,

and each hath his reward from God as his work is, and he that's holy is he∣ly, and he that's righteous is righteous, and he that's unjust unjust still, and he that's wicked is wicked still, and he that's good is good, and not evil, and he that's evil is evil, and not good, and the godly are they that are godly, and none else, and the ungodly are ungodly, and nothing else that's opposite to it, for contraries cannot be denominated both of the same subject at the same time, and each of these as they are (reapse) in very deed, so are they in Gods account, who accounts all men and things truly what they are, and not as man (who wearies the Lord with his words, saying, Every one that do h evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and God delighteth in him, and who is abuniration with the Lord for s••d••ing, Pr••v. 17.15. Mal. 2.17.) calling good evil, evil good, nor justifying the wicked, or condemning the righteous, but in his righteous Judgement (which evil men understand not, Pro. 28.5.) as it is revealed in the Light, which is the day thereof, rendring to all according to their deeds, secret as well as open, by Christ Iesus, ac∣cording to the Gospel Paul preached, to the patient continues in well doing Eternal Life, to the contentious ones against the Truth, that obey not it, but unrigh∣teousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, and this to every soul of man that doth evil, Iew or Gentile, Rom. 2. And so ••he only that doth righteousness is righteous, and is of God, and accepted with him, and he that doth not righteousness, is not of God, nor he that hateth his Brother, & hath no Eter∣nal life from God abiding in him, and be that sinneth is of the Devil, and hereby the Children of God are manifested, and the children of the Devil, and each hath his own Fathers portion, as he bears his image, nature, and pro∣portion; and as no righteous one is rejected or reprobated, so no unrighteous one is elected or accepted, but without respect of persons in every Nation, he that fears God, and works righteousness in Christ, the Light, is accepted with him.

And howbeit, the righteous turning from his righteousness to iniquity, may die, as the wicked turning from his wickedness to that which is lawful and right, may live; and the same person may turn, and return, and turn again, and be in possibilities of life or death, according as he chuses, when both are ••et a••ore him, yet the wayes of God are equal, and his Iudgements ac∣cording to truth, and each man ha••h from him for ever as he doth; and though the man that is now a Sinner, may become a Saint like David, and a sinner again, and by true repentance and purging with hysop a Saint again yet the Saint hath no part with the Sinner in his Lake, nor the Sinner a∣ny share in the inheritance of the Saints, which is in Light, but each hath his own peculiar and proper reward, and the heart of the one knows his own heaviness, and the stranger intermeddles not with the others joy.

And howbeit men may of unbelievers become believers, and believers in the Light may by an evil heart of unbelief draw back to perdition, and depart from the living God, yet whether they believe or not, God abideth faithful, and cannot deny himself; the believers portion that believes is the Life, and the unbelievers part is the Lake,: And though he that is now an unbeliever (m••diante side) may become a believer, and be saved, and he that now believes making shipwrack of his Faith and good Conscience (as Iudas, and others did) may come to be damned, yet no believer is ever damned,

nor is any unbeliever ever saved; but the Foundation of the Lord, who knows his own evermore, stands ever sure, let men go which way they will, who owns none that name the name of Christ, and depart not from iniquity, and owns all who ere they be that do, according to his everlasting and unchange∣able Decree, that stands thus stedfast without variation for ever, viz. that he that believes only shall be saved, and he that believes not shall be damned, Mar. 16.16.

So then every Saint ceases from sin (as T.D. also saves) and he that ceases not from it is no Saint, or holy one, but a Sinner, and the sinner cannot but sin, and do as his Father the Devil who begets him does, and he that's a Saint is born of God, and 〈◊〉〈◊〉 that's ban of God doth not s••n, neither can, be∣cause so: And though there be among the Sons of God degrees of growth in Grace and Faith, as to the measure of it (as I said) degrees among believers, for which T. D. sillily suppos'd I meant, that some of these have a mixture of sin with their grace, page 18. 1 Pamp. Yet I deny any mixture of sin and grace together, which they are no more capable of then water and oyl; but every Believer and Babe (as so) that is truly born of God, is per∣fect after Christs own Image, and in the Divine Nature, though not yet grown up into the measure and fulness of Christs stature, and stands justified and accepted in the sight of God, and out of the condemnation, while out of the transgression; and every unbeliever in the Light is out of God and Christ, who are Light, & is in the darkness, and of the Devil the Prince of darkness, and is in the condemnation, because in the transgression, and one with that Seed which is in the Reprobation, and each Seed, and the Son that re∣spectively is born of it, hath its own proper portion divided out unto it, and that which is of the Spirit hath life together with it, and who is of the Serpent and the fl••sh sows to it, and (if not parted from it) must pe∣rish together with it, and accordingly reap nothing but corruption.

And as to all the rest of T. Ds. R••plyes to our Reasons, rendred as to this point at the Dispute at Sandwich, which Replyes of his having no more force of reason in them, then there is strength in a rush, as to their reaching to hurt the truth, though I need not take any notice of them, in order to the consuting of T.D. he having so fairly consured himself already, as is above shewed, yet for the sakes of such as are honest hearted, and willing to see the truth I may run over to the rest, in such wise as fol∣lows.

Next then in answer to G. W. who told him truly how he wrested the Scriptures to his own destruction (for so by his Emphases he does indeed) T.D. sayes no•• ••••r (quoth he) the New-birth agrees to all the Saints, and if it excludes the being of sin (here he goes off from the terms, for he should have said the sinning, acting, or assenting to sin) in some, it must in all, for the Seed remains in all as well as any.

Rep. I say so too; and therefore (for the reason is sufficiently rendred above) it is that no Saint that's born of God (as so) doth sin or can (while such) if he do he is no Saint, 'tis the sinner, and not the Saint that sins, which is begotten back by the Devil, from that of God, into his own I∣mage, Likeness, and Nature, and by the Serpent beguiled again, as Paul was jealous the Corinthians would be, and as the Galatians were bewitched form the obedience of the truth.

But now [quoth T. D.] least ye should be so mad as to assert all Saints to be free from sin [from sinning still he should say for sin may be dead in a man who sins not, nor lives in it] pray read, Joh: 1:1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive our selves and this is spoken of such persons as of whom it is denyed that they commit sin, persons that had fellowship with the Father and his Son Iesus Christ, v:3.

Rep. Here he hath brought more fuel for that fire that is already burn∣ing his drossy divinations: The foolish Woman can do no other in the day thats approaching; but pull down her own House with her own hands: And so doth folly befool the divine doers against the truth in these dayes into an utter undoing of themselves. T••is is spoken of such (quoth he) of whom its said they commit not sin, so say I and of such of whom its said they sin not. Therefore T.D. may be sure he can fetch nothing hence in proof of it, that they do sin. Its said of such (quoth he) as had fellowship with the Father and Son, so say I, which proves them not now to be sinners, but must necessarily prove them (and so indeed it does) to be free from sin, and the deeds of darkness, not sinning, not walking in the darkess, or any deeds of it, but in the Light, now at least, what ere the had done, in which light who walkes (as it leades him,) cannot sin any more then he can, that walkes not after the fl••sh, but after the Spirit, and is led not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, which Light and Spirit never led any yet into sin: So the very Text and his own rea••on T. D. brings to conclude them Sinners, excludes them utterly from being Sinners now, for had they been so, they could not have had that fellowship with God, and Christ, which T. D. said they now had: For God is light, in him is no darknesse at all, if we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darknesse we ly and do not the truth; but if we walk in the Light as he is in the light, then have we fellowship, and the blood of Christ cleanseth us from All Sin: If we say we have no sin, we deceive our selves and the truth is not in us; But if we confesse our sins he faithfull and just, to forgive us our Sins, and cleanse us from All unrighteousness; if we say we have not sinned we make him a lyar, &c.

Who but such night Owls, as can see better by night then they can by day, can pick out such a thing as this from any one of these verses, viz. that Iohn and the Saints he here writes to, even of the least growth and lowest measure, however they had been so, did sin and were sinners at this pres••nt when he wrote it?

That they all had sin once and had sinned, its evident enough as I told T. D. then, for if we say we have not sinned (saith he) we make God a lyar: Yea, had they never sinned they had needed neither that pardon nor purg∣ing and perfect cleansing from all sin all unrighteousness he there affirms (they confessing their sins) God was faithfull to give them, as well as to for∣give all what they had committed, and which they then witnessed (in prae∣senti) but that at this time they were sinning and sinners not one title in all that Text doth Testifie.

T. D. But yea must not think to ••ut us off••s••, (quoth T. D. v. 8. 'Tis Amartian Ouk Echomen and the other is Ouk Emartekamen, suppose the latter verse to be understood of the sins which praeceded the new birth, yet the former is ex∣pressely (de presenti) that we have (not have had) no sin.

Rep. Who doubts of this but that E••h m••n, is the present tense? we know Iohn saves if we say that we have no Sin, we deceive our selves.

But what then my friend? because he sayes it (in presenti) will it follow that they were Sinners (in presenti?) cu••us contrarium, &c. For as its most evident that the 10. v. is explanatory and expositive of the 8. to him that well heeds the 9. v. that comes between them; So if he had not in one of them, given out his own mind and meaning (not thine) a∣bout the other; yet, all that's spoken [in presenti] is not [as thou judgest] spoken, [de praesenti] but not a little of the same nature with this is by the Pen-men utter'd [in praesenti] in the present Time and Ten••e, that relates not [ad praesens] but [ad praete••itum] to the time past onely, as uttered concerning that: Iam. 3.8, 9. he sayes of the tongue its an unruly evill, full of deadly poison, and [in praesenti] therewith blesse we God, therewith curse we men, made after Gods Image, alias Saints: will any man be so sim∣ple as to conclude from hence that Iames and the Saints were now, at this time c••••sers of men or of Saints that bare Gods Image, or that he wrote this of himself and them [de praesenti] as concerning this present time, where∣in he writes it? and not rather understand him as speaking of man as he is in the fall, unrenewed, in statu corrupto, immorigero, inconverso, of men yet unconverted to the truth? which teacheth better fruits then such bitter f••i••s, as these, which yet [for all your blessing God with the same mouth] ye national Ministers are found bringing forth at this day; does he not speake it of men as they ly dead in trespasses and sins, and so consequently of himself, and the Saints as [de praeterito] concerning the time past, who in times past had their conversation among such as Paul sayes, Eph: 2: 2: 3: Tit: 3: 2?

So Rom: ••: 14: Paul sayes [in praesenti] I am carnall, s••ld under sin, I find a Law in my members, carrying me captive into the Law of sin, and much more then that in the present tense through that Chapter: is any man but he, whose own wisdome is all foolishnesse for want of heeding the measure of the light, and Gods wisdom•• in his own heart, so foolish at to interpret Paul as speaking of himself and his present state in those words, and so as to con∣clude that Paul while he in the Spirit of God wrote that Epistle to the Ro∣mans was carnall, s••ld under sin, enslaved to it, carried captive by it, led at the will of Sin and Satan, as he had once been before the Light or Law in the Spirit and he came together? at which time began the war, before which war, as he was in his contracted corrupt nature [howere he thought not so till the Light shew'd it him] Sin was alive in him and he dead in it, and a ser∣vant to it; under which war also [if he kept not to his watch] he might loose ground sometimes, and gain it again, [as he recover'd to his watch to the light and stood arrayed with the Armour thereof] in which con∣tinuing stedfast at last he obtained the victory, of which he speakes in the same place ch. 8.2, 3, 4. so that at praesent he witnessed the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ, the light, which warr'd in his mind against the Law of his members, had now made him free from that Law of Sin and Death which once he was so pester'd with that he cryed out of himselfe' as wretched by reason of it, and witnessed also the Son of God condemning Sin so perfectly in his fl••sts by Christs power in him, that the righteousnesse of the Law was now fulfilled

in himselfe, and other Saints, and himselfe walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

I say can any think Paul such a one, but such as sell themselves to Folly? not considering that Paul speaks of three states he had experienced, one before the Law or Light, when he lay dead in sin, a 2 under it while he warred against it, a 3 in Christ, wherein he stood freed from and in full dominion over it, (but one of which 3 he could possibly be in at once and at this time, and that was the 3d, having passed the other two (as is evident, ch. 8.2. hath made me free) can any but benighted ones, that being sold under sin themselves, mea∣sure others by themselves, Judge Paul to be (the premises cosidered) un∣der the power of sin and unfreed from it at this present and that he wrote of himself as wretched de presenti, because he wrote it in praesenti, thus and thus I am? had he not then subjected himselfe below the Saints he writes to, of whom he sayes chap. 6. that even they were made free from sin? as well he, who were once the servants of it, and yielded their members up to obey it as he was and did; of which persons yet T. D. in the name of T. Rumsey simply says p. 47.1. Pamp. It cannot be meant simply that they were freed from sin, because Paul, c. 14.10. sayes (not so much by way of condemnation (say I) as by way of caution to them) that they should not judge and set a•• naught one another: for why dost thou, there may be by way of memorandum and warning as well Christs, how wilt thou? and why beholdest thou, thou hy∣pocrite? to his own Disciples Math. 7.2, 3. and as Pauls other why d••st thou? 1 Cor. 4.••. which was not by way of downright charge and censure, but by way of prevention of such things as should not be: and hint how it ought to be among them; but undoubtedly Paul. Rom 7. speakes as concern∣ing how it was with him in times past when he lay under sin, and while he passed throw his warfare against it: being at present in the state of victory over it, which state of victory the Scripture every where speaks of, as that the Saints come to here, even to the overcoming of the world and the lust of it while they live in it, 1 Ioh. 5.4, 5. Rev. 2. Rev. 21.7. which our Priests put far from themselvs and their people, as a state attainable onely in the world to come.

Yea Oh the blindnesse that 7. of the Rom. for want of heeding the 8. to∣gether with it, is made the common place of our blind guides and night-nurs∣ing Fathers, from whence, upon the account of Pauls out-cry, O wretched man that I am! to nourish up their sinning Saints from fainting under the bur∣den of their necessary infirmityes, and from whence to conclude Paul to have liv'd and dyed also without full freedom and perfect purging from his sins, and themselves much more to be under a necessity of sinning and living cas∣ually while they live.

Which yet follows no more then it did from that of Iames above, from both which it will follow, as fully, as from that of Iohn I am yet in hand with, and that is indeed not one jot at all: If we say we have no sin, &c. Who that hath sinned can say he hath no sin? for the sin he hath once com∣mitted, he hath, and the sins by which Iohn and they had sinned of old, were theirs (or else they needed no Saviour nor purging) as cursing men possibly might be sins of which Iames, and them he writes to, could not say we have no such, for such and such were some of you, saith Paul to the

Saints, 1 Cor. 6. But now ye are washed, sanctified, justified by the Spirit, &c. So that if we confesse he is faithfull and just to forgive, and thats not all (though the Priest stops there) but to cleanse us from all unrighteousnesse, yea the blood of Iesus his Son doth (in praesenti) cleanse us from All sin: If then there be any filth remaining theres not a cleansing from all, but if (as the Text sayes it was to some) it be from all, then theres none at all remaining so as to be committed or acted to defilement; though the Saints may be said to have it in and about them so as to be tempted to it, while it is fully under them, yet temptation to it is not transgression: And the same may be said of 2 Cor. 7.1. let us cleanse [though Paul himself was cleansed] from all unclean∣nesse of flesh and Spirit (then which I know no more) p••rfecting holinesse in the fear of God, who (say I) commands not impossibilities to the visible Churches, in which sundry were, who were not clean (as Christs Saints and true Disci∣ples are through the word he speakes to them) nor cleansing but some waxing worse and worse, Ioh. 13.10, 11, 16, 3. Phil. 3.18, 19. much lesse doth Christ com∣mand, no to his true Ministers (as fast as false ones hasten to that fruitlesse work, if there own doctrine were true) in his Name to command what is impossible; yet even to the little children in the Church does Iohn write that they sin not, 1 Ioh. 2.1. as well as of the young men in commendation, that they are strong and have overcome the wicked one, and yet there are Fathers beyond all these.

Next to G. W. mentioning Phil. 3.15. as many as be perfect &c. in proof of perfection here, T. D. Replyes well-nigh a whole page full of worth no∣thing, which is scarce worth noting on any other account then to shew how 'tis worse then nothing to his own purpose:

• 1.He tells us, that's spoken of grown Christians that were perfect in compa∣rison of Babes.

  Rep. That every Babe in Christ is perfect, as to the divine nature, which assents to no sin, much lesse acts it. I have shew'd above, but if all that are born of God were not perfect, yet that some are T. D. there confesses, and if but one it proves the possibility of it, which we plead against him and he pleads against.

• 2 He tells us that [perfect] in Scripture is put for [upright] and these are made Synonimous, and of the same import.

Rep. True, Perfect and upright are one, and both import no lesse then a man that sins not, Eccles. 7.29. Adam in innocency was perfect, it's said God made man upright: For while any are upright they are answerable to the Law or Light lent them to live by, which sin is the transgression of, and so no transgressours, and while they transgresse that Law they are not perfect, nor upright but crooked and so accounted. Whether it be Iob himself, whom T. D. so much instances in and insists on, p. 10. 1. Pamp. and p. 6. 2. Pamp. or David himselfe, or any other: Therefore while David stood in integrity and uprightnesse (as mostly he did) it preserved him, and God so accounted him and justified him, as an upright man, as he did Iob. 1.1. in the same case: but where he turn'd aside into the deceit & defilement, God held him not upright, but hypocriticall, false, filthy and sinfull: much lesse did he therein hold him guiltlesse and justifie, him (as most ignorantly T. D. delivers it that he did p. 38. 1. Pamp.) even when he was guilty of adultery

and murder; in which juncture nevertheless T.D. sayes he was not in a con∣demned state, but in a justified estate: The Scripture exempts him from justification, so far, that it vouchsafes him not that denomination of an up∣right man in that matter of Vriab, but brands him with the name of a pittylesse, blood guilty man, a secret evill doer in the sight of the Lord, a despiser of him, and his comandement, and a causer of Gods enemies to blaspheme his Name, Psal. 51. 2 Sam. 12.6, 9, 10, 12, 14. Howbeit this one thing by the way is worth noting concerning T. D. (not for any good that is in it or in T. D. as touching his demeanour in it) that when he speaks of the Saints good and duty that they do, he says that's not perfect, but an unclean thing, dung and filthy rags: yea, that he calls sin and iniquity p. 7. 2. Pamp. They sin (quoth he) in doing good: duties holy for the matter are iniquity for the manner ••f performance: but when the Saints (as in Davids ca••e) commit Adultery and Murder, he pronounces them blessed, as having no guile nor guilt in their Spi∣rit, but sincere (which is the same with upright or perfect) see p. 11. 1. Pamp. David (quoth he) Psal. 32.2. Pronounces the man blessed, which hath no guile in his Spirit or sincere, which himselfe was at that time, though under the guilt of a great sin v. 5. which is by interpreters supposed to be the same sins for which psal. 51. was composed.

Rep. Heres Doctrine of Divinity with a witnesse; when the Saints do the best good, they sin, their holy things are all as an unclean thing, their righteousness is dung, filthy rags (though T. D. holds also that Paul had no righteousness which was not Christs p. 22. 1. Pamp. nor any righteousnesse, but what from Christ he received) their performing duty at least is no lesse then iniquity, but when they are under the guilt of such great sins as Adultery and Murder, oh blessed men they at that time have no guile in their Spirits, are in sincerity or (to speakin the diminutive Phrase by which sometimes he lessens the foul faults and great sins of the Saints) at the worst but under infirmity: But be it this or be it that, greater or lesse, better or ••••••se, infirmity or iniquity, good or evill, duty or dung, righteousness or rags, holy or unclean, the upshot of all is this, the men are blessed men, what ere they do, they are never in a condemned, but ever in a justified estate; and let their works be as they will, perfect or not perfect, good or duty, which they call unclean, dung, ini∣quity or filthy rags, their persons [though thus sinning] are ever Saints, and believers, which together with their works, are accepted with God, who yet (say I) never accepted any such works, as are iniquity and sin, nor any Per∣sons, while they are the workers of them.

And as to the remnant of T. D's, talk in answer to ••.••. which is to this purpose, viz. that Paul Phil. 3.12. Denyes any such perfection, as is exclusive of sin till that last and bodily resurrection from the dead, which he looks not for in this life, which answer he is so in love with, that he hath it in his 1st pamp. p. 10. and also ore again in his 2d Pamp. p. 6.

Rep. I shall answer that no other wise then out of T. D's. own mouth, who (as I am, as to my self, credibly enough inform'd by A. P.) in a meeting among many at Sandwich, since those publike disputes we had since the edition of both his books, being 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the precise time wherein perfect purging is, answered when the Soul, being passed out of the body, is in its passage between here and heaven. (or to that purpose) which, is but so, and no somer,

must then be before the resurrection he talks of: and if he will not be con∣vinced by his own words, that sin is excluded before the resurrection, much lesse is it likely he should believe any of mine. Adding this however, viz. That if ye lye down in your graves with your bones full of sin, ye shall rise with them full of sorrow, was wont to be the Priests argument to the people, to perswade them to a purging from all sin before they dye, because no purging to be lookt after death, much lesse so long of after, as at the re∣surrection. Verbum sat sapienti.

The next answer of T.D. is to the Argument urged from Psal. 119.1, 2, 3. which he, who renders all we said as weakly, lamely and decrepidly as he possi••ly can for his own ends, repeats not half so much as by the halves, for I wisht him him to heed all the 3. verses which were then peraphras'd to him, and argued f••••m in such wise as followeth, viz. they that are undefiled in the way, are not defiled in the way; they that walk in the Law of the Lord, do not transgresse it; they that keep his Testimonies, do not break them; they that seek him with their whole heart, serve him not by the halves, not him and sin, but him alone and wholly; they that done iniquity, do not sin; they that walk in his way, do not walk besides it; but there were some (or else they could not be pronounced blessed, for the Spirit blesses not such men as are not) and such now may be (for quod fieri potuir potest, what was then, is possible to be now) who are undefiled in the way, walk in the Law of the Lord, that keep his Testimonies, and seek him with their whole heart, who do no iniquity, and walk in his way: Therefore 'tis possible that the Saints may be freed from sinning in this life:

The summe of what T. D. Replyes to all this is that the Phrases are hy∣perbolicall: which is a little better at least, but how much I list not here to tell, then if T.D. had said, they are hypocriticall, or (as his wonted replyes are, when he can find no better, as I have shewed above) the meaning of the words cannot be as the letter of them doth import, the Spirit meanes not as he sayes, the Spirits meaning may be mistaken, when his words are taken in the most ordinary liter all sense, and so it would be, if undefiled and doing no iniquity, should be meant truely of being undefiled and doing none iniquity indeed p. 11. 1. Pamp. Its meant of having respect to all Gods Commandements in re∣spect of design and endeavour though falling short in accomplishment, v. 6. being explanatory of the other.

Rep. Oh the impudency of this man? what have we (for all this he sayes against the plain literall sense of the Spirits words) whereby to assure us that the Spirit means not as his own words import, but onely in that shambling sense which T. D. shuffles them into? whose words must be taken? T. D's. or Davids, and the Spirits? the very literall sense of which is exclusive of all sin and defilement, and strictly expressive of doing no iniquity at all? who that is born of God doth not see T. D. to be a strict pleader for loosenesse, and endeavourer to uphold the D••vills Kingdom? the Spirit pronounces them blessed, and no more, in whose whose Spirit there is no guilt, that do no iniquity, walk in in Gods way, and keep his Testimonies or Commandements, T. D. will bring in a bastard brood into this blessednesse, that fa••l short in the accomplishment of this, that must be supposed at least to be ever respecting, designing, and endeavour∣ing to do that businesse, which yet, notwithstanding all their respects, de∣signes

and endeavours, they are to believe they must never do, it being not possi∣ble to be done: they must alwayes dwell at the sign of the Labour in Vain, and be striving to wash the Blak-More white and alwayes roling Sysiphus's Stone; ever purifying never pure, ever mortifying their earthly members, forni∣cation, uncleannesse, inordinate affection to the world, evill concupiscence, covetous∣nesse, Idolatry, Anger, Wrath, Lying, Filthy Communication, but never while they live obtain to witnesse these so mortifyed, as to be no more committed, least such an absurdity as this should follow, that the Scripture [which I con∣fesse is found contradicting these meaning-makers on it] be found contra∣dictory to it self: for [quoth T. D. p. 59. 2 Pamp. all the Scriptures, which require repentance and mortification during this life, do deny the possibility of perfection: For they and it are incompatible. We are bid [quoth he] to mortify our earthly members, inordinate desires, moti∣ons and actions of corrupt ••nature, that is, constant∣ly endeavour to represse and subdue them. And theres no reason but that Gods Commands should run in that old stile though we are not able to fulfill them:

Rep. Of all the peices of proof against the possibility of perfection, that ever I heard, made by T. D. himself or any other, This is the most monstrously rediculous: draw this rude and crude matter into its own form and the force of it runs ihus.

That, which God requires and commands us to be alwayes doing, and constantly endeavouring to do during this life, can never possibly be done or effected during this life: for if it be once fully done, effected and accomplished, then we can't be alwayes doing it, and so not obey what God requires. But God requires we should be alwayes mortifying, constantly endea∣vouring to represse and subdue the actions of corrupt nature during this life: Therefore its impossible [unlesse we be left uncapable of doing what God requires] that we should in this life perfectly mortify and subdue them.

In short, that, which must be ever in fieri while we live, can't be in facto esse till we dy, but we are (in fieri) to be alwayes purifying our selves while we live: Therefore [least there be no more work of that kind for us to do] we may not lawfully or cannot possibly be pure till we ay,

Rep. This is even as hand••ome a shift, as if a Debtor promising to owe & en∣deavour to pay his Creditor 20l. should never pay it him, upon the pretence of an impossibility to perform his promise, if he do once pay the mony, I must ever owe him the mon••y, and stand engaged to endeavour to pay it, there∣fore [unlesse I make my selfe uncapable of performing my promise, which I am alwayes mindfull of performing] I must never actually pay it.

But now as to T. D's. place, who would it seems willingly be alwayes in Gods debt during his life, but never come out of it till after death, ever owing so much love as fulfills the Law, but never practising it, so as to fulfill the Law▪ I must arrest him (for all his shift) and deny the minor of his Argu∣ment:

We are not required to be alwayes doing or endeavoring to suppre is and mortify sin so as never to bring the work to accomplishment in thss life; but once to effect it before we dye; for As they are blamed that are over learning and never able to come to the knowledg of the Truth; So are they as little accepted, that are allwayes seeking to God dayly in pretence, as a Nation that had a mind to do Righteousness, asking of him the Ordinances of Iustice, seeming to take delight in approaching to God, that they might know his wayes, alwayes (when the appointed time comes) Fasting and Praying, humbling and afflicting their Souls for a day, and hanging down their heads as a Bullrush, thinking that to be a Fast of the Lords chusing, and the acceptable day of the Lord, yet never loosing the bands of wickednesse, nor undoing the heavy burden, nor breaking every yoak, nor letting the oppressed Seed of God in their own hearts, nor without neither, go free, ever and anon fasting for sin, never from it, ever reforming never re∣formed, ever running, never obtaining, alwayes making a shew of mortifying sin, never making any true effectuall mortification of it, ever warring, ne∣ver overcoming, nor quenching the fiery darts of the wicked, nor dislodging the vain thoughts that are in them, nor coming to the end of the Comman∣dement, which is love from a pure heart, good conscience, and faith unfamed, allwayes beating the aire but never keeping under the body, nor bringing it into subjection to the power of Truth, ever owing that love, which works no ill but fulfills the Law, never performing any thing but that hatred which breaks the law, debtors alwayes to the Spirit, but living after the flesh, and never by the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the body that they may live to God, such sluggardly wishers and wouldens, and seekers and respecters, and pretenders, and striuers and runners, fighters, reformers, and mortifiers will be cast away at length for all their constant endeavours; sith they do not so much as look to overtake what they run after, nor reach the high prize they professe to presse to in this life, which if they do not, them∣selves say also tis to late to effect and obtaine it after death. But

Qui cupit optatam cursu contingere metam Multa, tulit, fecitque puer, sintavit & alsit.

'Tis good for a man to bear Christs Yoak in his youth, sith the Soul of the sluggard desireth and hath nothing, but the Soul of the di∣ligent shall be made far.

As for the residue of T. Ds. reply to the argument above, as some of it has bin toucht on before, so what was not is scarce worth mentioning.

He tells us v. 6. which talks of respect to all Gods Commands, explaines all the other.

Rep. T. D. sayes so but wher's his proof? beside if it be so, a true, re∣al respect (though such a slender one as he rests in does not) stands in a due and true observation of them; is he worthy to be respected as a true respecter of Gods Commandements that breaks them?

T.D. David excludes himself from the blessed Estate, if undefiled and doing no iniquity be meant strictly here, sith his wish, v. 5. and other passages shew he was not free from sin, which surely David did not intend, because, Psal. 32.2.5. he pronounces blessednesse to the man in whose Spirit is no guile, who is sincere, as himself was at that time, though then under the guilt (as is supposed by

interpreters) of his great sin of murder and adultery, for which Psal. 51. was composed.

Rep. 1st. some of this dirty stuff I spoke to but a little before, the false∣hood of which is evident, for whereas the Scripture sayes, David was not upright in the matter of Uriah, T.D. sayes, yea he was sincere and had no guile in his Spirit when under the guilt of those great sins. 2d. as to the rest, what if David did exclude himself? If he were under those great evills, he might well exclude himself from the blessednesse of sincere ones, till he came into the sense of Gods Love again & to repentance; while he pronounced the undefiled ones blessed that did no such iniquity, he had reason to take the curse as his own portion to himself, and to cry out of himself, Talaiporos Anthroyos O wretched man that I am, more deser∣vedly then Paul, who (though (in zeal of God) shedding blood) yet was, 'tis like, never such a deep Adulterer, and deliberate Murderer as David was in Vriahs case: and as God said to Israel Hos: 9.1: so might David say to himself, rejoyce not thou as other (honest) people, for thou a••t gone a who ••ing from thy God: and if that were his case (as thou intimatest it was) wherein he was so desperately defiled with filth and blind, he might well exclude himself from it, having no reason to take to himself the blessing of the undefiled: or whether he excluded himself or no from it, this I am sure (for all thy foolish dreams about Davids good Condition, Iustification, Blessednesse and Vprightness, whilst under the guilt of those sordid Iniqui∣ties, that the Scripture excludes him in that case so far from blessednesse, that it concludes him neither upright (as thou simply dost) not so much as a respecter of Gods Commands, which at least thou dorest, he was, even when he called that all abomination (whiles thou Judg him (as Indeed thou doest) to have respect to Gods commandments, that de∣spises both God and him, for 2 Sam. 12. as much as thou smoothest over those abominable businesses the better to sooth thy self and some sinful Saints like thy self, in your lusts and iniquities, as no more then Saints infir∣mities, who have respect to all Gods Commandemets in respect of design and indeavour, though falling short in accomplishing: yet when Nathan came to him well-nigh a year after he had lyen, in that dirty pickle in impenitency under the guilt of those gross impieties, he is so far from sowing pillows and daubing with such untempered morter, as thou dost, and from including him in the lists of sincerity, and owning him as one that had respect to all Gods Commands, that he convinces him of his wicked hypocrisies and condemns him, as one that had despised both God himself and his Commandements.

Next T. D. as he relates p. 11. 1 pamp. asking me whether I could produce one single example of a perfect Saint in our sense, I told him yea, instancing in Zachary and Elizabeth, Luke 1. 6. who were both Righteous before God (not before man onely) but before God, walking in all the Commandements of God (not in some few or many, but all) and Ordinances of God blameless.

To this (accounting for more then that he then said though 'tis one to as little purpose as the other) first (quoth he) how appeares it that righteous before God is meant of a perfect inherent Righteousnesse? seeing a be∣lievers

person with his works are accepted with God, though his works be not perfect: And in proof of this imperfect and crooked conceit of his own, he coats, Heb. 11. 4. By faith Abel offered a more excellent Sacrifice then Cain, by which he obtain'd witness that he was righteous, &c. and then adds that (blameless) is meant but comparatively, as Phil. 2.15. that ye may be blameless and harmless, the Sons of God without rebuke, &c. in which same sense he sayes, Luke 4. understands the Phrase, to which he adds Phil. 3.6. where Paul while a Pharisee sayes he was blameles as touching the righte∣ousness of the Law, which he was onely externally conformable to and how Zachariah was at the same time blamed, and also punish't for his unbelief.

Rep. in which piece of Reply of his, 1st. something is true but no∣thing to T. D's. turn, but rather such as serves the truths turn against his, but 2d. something most abominable confused, false and fained, viz. That a believers person with his works are accepted with God, though his works be not perfect. For how ere T. D's. calls and counts men (as he does dain'd) Saints and Believers, &c. while their works are not per∣fect, and not only not perfect but abominable also, wicked, sinful, fil∣thy, hypocritical, deceitful, gross iniquity, Adultery, Murther, and despite to the Commands of God (as Davids acting in Vriahs matter are called, Psal. 5.1. 2 Sam. 13.) guiltless, &c. yet, no such imperfect, evil workers (while so) are any more deem'd upright by God, then David was, who was not vouchsafed the name of upright in that case. 2d. much lesse are such as are not perfect but evil works, such as are at best but unclean, dung, iniquity and filthy rags (yet such and no better does T. D. call the duties, and, as to the manner, the best performances of himself, and his sort of Saints) of any acceptance at all (as I have shewed well nigh newly a∣bove) but rather an abhorrency in the sight of God, by what person so∣ever acted: nor was Davids adultery with Bathsheba, and murder of Vriah, nor himself, as acting it, nor any service he did, or Sacrifice he offer'd while under the filth and blood-guiltnesse, and unrighteousnesse of it (till he had throughly repented of it, was wasn't from it, and recovered out of it) any more accepted as a sweet smelling savour with God, then the adultery of another man, then Cains murder of Righteous Abel, and the persons and performances of all such unrighteous livers, whose very Sacrifices, (while they are such) God hath no more respect to then he had to that of Cain, whose seed they are, whose Image and nature (while they are doing so wickedly) they all beare, and are found in (David himself (as so doing) not excepted) which Sacrifice of Cain, though else perhaps as costly as his brothers, had, together with his per∣son, no such acceptance as Righteous Abel and his had, because at that time he was an evil doer, and then 'twas the evil doer that did the good, Sin lay at the door, and kept the Sacrifice from acceptance, as it ever does where ere it lyes: for where and while there is a turning away, the care from the law ther's the wicked one, there the person and the performance are both a stink before the Lord, yea the very pray∣ers of the wicked are abominable. And in bringing Abel for an instance of a believers person and his works being accepted with God, though his works be not perfect, He quite cuts the throat of his own cause; for both Abel

and his works were true and perfect, and righteous before God; and so they are both cal'd, Mat. 23. 35. Heb. 11. 4. 1 Iohn 3. 12. while Cain and his works are both call'd evil and of the Devil: and therefore had Abel and his works acceptance, when Cain and his had none, because he was righteous, not so esteemed of God while he was not so indeed (as T. D. deems) who because he so does, deems that God (as him∣self) deems those and theirs to be good and righteous, which in them∣selves (inhaesive) are nothing lesse, but (saving that contrary account T. D. supposes God to have thereof) really rather evill and unrigh∣teous: For had Cain bin righteous and done well in other matters he had done well in offering, and bin accepted; if thou do well shalt thou not be accepted? but because he did Bonum and not Bene, being an evil doer and a sinner, when Abel being righteous did both, and was ac∣cepted, yet he was not accepted in his material doing that, which (else) was good: in which case Israels most solemn assemblies were Iniquity (as those of Saints and believers are not, notwithstanding T. Ds. say so) because their hands were defil'd with blood, and their fingers with moral iniquity: So by faith, which purified Abels heart and wrought by love and overcame the world in him, and the lust thereof, and which was both made and proved to be true and perfect by his works, did Abel, and so all true Saints and believers also do, come to offer a more excellent and accep∣table Sacrifice then that of Cain, and his wicked Race, by which they ob∣tain (not mans but) Gods own testimony that they are righteous, as Zachariah, and Elizabeth both did, in the place and case now in hand: which Testi∣mony of God, who counts no things to be other wise then they really and truly are, is true, and will stand against all T.D's. tattl•• to the contrary, and will be believed before his, by every true believer, though many such nominal believers as himself is, will believe no more of what God him∣self declares plainly, by such holy ones as wrote the Scripture, then what they list, and that's little or nothing at all of that, that leaves them no license at all to please the lust: and therefore, the Righteousnes, blame∣lesness, Innocency, harmlesness of the Sons of God themselves, Phil. 2. 14. that are found in all good conscience towards both, and without rebuke before both God and men, whose blameless and righteous works, which are from God himself, and not of themselves, Isa. 26. 12. 54. 17. deeper dye then that of Pauls own Exact Pharisaical; Traditional, External Con∣formity to the meer outward Letter, or Law of a Carnal Commandement in matter of external Ordinance (which yet to the full was as good as any of that Religion or Righteousness of our morally unrighteous, Pharisaical Christians, now gloryed in by our literallists & legallists) must be made no other then parralel'd with that of man, Phil. 3. 6. which had no more also then the Testimony of man, as to that denomination of blamlesness & Righteousnesse, yet was in truth (because lying in outward observation of fleshly ceremony, more than inward Righteousness and morality) no more worth than meer dung with God, and as to justification of any one in his sight that doted on it.

As to that of Zachariah's being guilty of acting sin at that very time in which be as said to be Righteous, for which he was punished with dumnes, where∣upon

I told him then that in Elizabeth their was no fault found however, and so one instance might stop his mouth, who call'd for an instance of one single person only, but [quoth he] shee might be no more free from sin, then he, though theres no mention of any sin of hers.

Rep. I prov'd her to be blameless and righteous from the Text it self, it lyes in him to assign some sin of hers, if shee had any, but that he cannot do, but confesses there's no mention of any: So that instance stands ore his head still: and whereas, at the Taile of his double Tale a∣bout his and her sins he tells another to make them three, viz. that my mouth was stopt, and I was silenced & had nothing to Reply, (because I thought fit to be silent when enough was said) T. D. doth but mistake himself, for 'twas his own mouth that was then stopt, insomuch that I saw and heard some of those that stood about him take notice of him as meerly cavel∣ling in that matter: but he that chuses to Outword them he cavills with, though to little purpose, must chuse to have the last word if he can.

But whereas T. D. sayes thus, but in a word to put it out of doubt, Zacha∣riah was at that time found guilty of the sin of unbelief, and was punisht for it, I say its more then he will ever prove while he lives that he was so at all, much lesse in the very time of which its said that he was Righteous. For 1st. that time was before the time of his not-believing, of which its said, that in it he was Righteous. But 2d. in a word to put it out of doubt, and bring both instances clear ore his head again, ther's no such thing mentioned in the least of Zachariahs sinning, much lesse of being punisht for his sin, for howbeit he did not so fully at first, as he did after, believe the Angells news of his having a Son (it being very unlikely sith his wife and he both were very old) and thereupon desired honestly a sign by which he might the more assuredly know and give credit to it, as others [without sin] desired in like cases the like before him, yet is he neither blamed, nor threatned, nor lesse puisht (as T. D. dreams) with dumb∣nesse for not believing till he had a sign, as for a Sin: but his dumbnesse was given as an an∣swer of his desire of a sign, and as a sign of the certainty of the thing, that he might the more undoubtedly believe it, Eccle. 1.18.19.20. whereby shall I know this glad Tidings (quoth Zachariah) for we are old. Behold [quoth the Angel] thou shalt be dumb till the day that these things shall be performed since thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

There remains one Scripture more that T. D. urged against perfection, which he desired my an∣swer to, at the propounding of which he sayes, I was silenced, and yet brings me in himself as answering to it in the very next words that I spake at all, whereby men may see how he makes a matter of nothing of it, to utter lies and to prove them to be lyes as soon as he has done.

The Text is Eccles. 7.20. there is not a just man upon earth that doth

good and sinneth not, the sum of my answer, which T. D. renders as raggedly as he can, so that men may not tell what to make of it, was this, viz. There are no dwellers upon earth that sin not, but there are some that have a bodily abode upon earth, whose dwelling is not on earth, but in Heaven, whose conversation or (Politeuma) or habitation, Mil. 3.20. cheif businesse, being, abode and dwelling is in Heaven, whom all the inhabitants of the earth or earthly minded men, on all whom the day of the Lord comes as a snare, Luke 21. viz. the Beast and his worshippers, who are said to dwell on earth, Rev. 11.10. do Blaspheme, Rev. 13, 6. and these people of God in Heaven, who also are Heaven, where God himself dwells, Isa. 57. Isa 66. Rev. 18.20.19.1. Sin not, as all they do (wo to them therefore) that are inhabitants of the earth, for the Devil is cast out of Heaven, and hath no place there, and is come down to the other in great wrath: But they that are in Heaven are on Mount-Sion, with the Lamb redeemed from the earth, and in their mouth is found no guile, for as the Lamb himself, who is their Saviour, is unspotted, doing no evill, so are they without fault before the Throne of God, Rev. 14.1.3.5. which answer of mine which was also G.Ws. & is mine here again to T.D. so far was I then from using it as a meer evasion, as T. D. sayes he verily believes I then did in mine own Iudgment and intention: But T. D. not well knowing what to reply to it, replyes nothing at all to it in his Rejoinder; but p. 7.2. pamp. calls it absurd and not worth a further reply then what he gives, p: 13. 1 pamp. which is so jejune that I can find nothing in it but skin and bone: he tells us the Iust man being in Heaven in our sense, excludes not his local being here on earth.

Rep. Nor do we say it does, though he there thinks we do think so; but what of this? we deny, not his bodily and local abode here on earth, & T.D. who can do no other then give us all our questions, cannot, and therefore doth nor deny but confesse it, that he hath a present be∣ing also in Heaven, and thats as much as we need wish him to yeild to, as in order to the yeilding us our cause; and if he should deny a true real being of the Sons of God in Heaven, while they are locally and bodily here on earth, we should force him to confesse it from Iohn 3.13. where its said of the Son of man (mark) in praesenti, that he is in Heaven, while yet he stood bodily on the earth: He tells us we run very low in this answer, but alas it is too high for him, who is on earth, with all his reason to reach any sound Reply to; as (in us) seems to be (without us) and (inward) to be (outward) to him who lives not in Heaven within, but on earth without; so, to him that stands (as T.D. doth) on his head, with his heals upwards, and his head down towards the Earth, where his feet and heels onely should be, as downward seems to be upward, so does upward to be downward: But so it seems to the great Whore that rides the Beast, or that Woman thats cloathed in Scarlet, and for a time tramples the Holy City under feet, Rev. 17.4.11.2. yet things seem no otherwise then they are to the Woman cloathed with the Sun, who hath her head Crowned with the Starrs, and all fading sublunary Glory, and the Moon it self under her feet, Rev. 12.1.

As to T. Ds. trifling reply to what R: H. urg'd from Heb, 12:23. where Paul sayes, the Saints were come to mount Sion the City of the living God, the

New Ierusalem (into which let T.D. esolve himself, whether any un∣cleannesse or defilement can enter, from Rev 21.7.) and to Myriards of An∣gels, and to the general Assembly and Church of the 1st being, whose Names are written in Heaven. And to God, and to Iesus, and to the Spirits of Just men perfected (with all whom let T. D. who sayes that place im∣parts not the perfection of any man on earth, Re∣solve himself whether one dram of darkness or uncleanness can enter into Communion, if 2. Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18. and 1 Iohn 1.3.4.5.6.7. be true, much more so as to make one body with them, as T.D. Divines it doth) as to, that I say, so far as it is fit to be replyed to, G.W. hath done it, whose reply stands unshaken by that feminine tempest or stood of impertinent words, wherewith T.D. who sayes much to as litle purpose, would seem to patch up a return, and what G: W: said in short the body of Christ is perfect, may be ventured among wise men to stand as it does, against T: D's little less then Blasphemous Counter-position, that the body of Christ is not per∣fect: for his particle (yet) whereby he mends that matter, saying, not (yet) perfect, because some that belong to it are yet unborn; this helps him not a tittle, who holds with I: O. the Scripture to have bin of old from Moses a perfect Rule, and Canon (I speak ad h••minem their own sense not mine) whilst many books of it were yet not written, and so I shall vouchsafe it no more then so, and the rather because that reply of T:D: to G:W: was replyed to some months since, but that it was neglected to be printed by such as were intrusted to see it done, and whether it yet may or may not be printed before this of mine be out I cannot say. Unspeakably much more might be said both in disproof of such Toyes as our D••vines talk against it, by and in proof of that possibility of a perfect living without sin before death, then I shall here take notice of; yet 3. or 4, things that are upon me I am free to give some small bint of: T:D: tells us, God will have us excercis'd in that work of mortifying sin while we live, & therefore, lest we should have no more worke to do nor worlds to conquer, there must be no full conquest over the world, nor perfect mortification of the lust of it till we be dead, so some tell us, Gods Children would be proud, if he should not keep them down, corruption as well as affliction being a most effectual means to make ashamed, God will leave (as he did once Caananites to excerise the Israelites, and he as Thorns in their sides) some sins in his Saints unsubdued as long as they love, to humble and prove them and shew them what is in their hearts, and such like.

Rep. But I trow where would pride it self be, which is none of the least sins if the Saints come by the Blood and Power of Christs Light and Grace, which only humbles, to be fully freed and cleansed from all sin and uncleannesse of flesh and spirit, and to perfect holiness in the fear of God? will not pride it self then be brought down, as well as other sins, and Humility alone be Exalted?

Some tells us from 1 Kings 1:48. The man lives not that sins not.

Rep: We say that ther's no man that lives, who hath not sinned, and

as Iohn sayes, he is a lyar that sayes otherwise of himself, but because men have sinned and have sin must they never be purg'd? is there a necessity that they who now have it, and now sin must needs have it, and must needs sin till they dye? and if they may cease from sinning (as our Divines also, but that they forget themselves, tell us they may, yea must or dye for ever, every tree lying for ever as it falls, and there being no Purgatory after death) I say if they may and must before they dye, is it then unpos∣sible that they should? and if they may ne'r so little before they dye, (suppose a day, a week, a year) leave sinning, may they not by the same power and light live without it, 2:3: or many years before? but that, as the plain truth is) they are in love with it, and loath to part with it till it parts with them, and to take heed to that light and grace that is given of the Lord to lead them out of it, to repentance from it, and to learn them to deny it, and to live without it, Godly, Righteously, and soberly in this present world, in which neglect the hands of the evil doer are strengthned by our dirty dawbers, who tell them they must leave sin, all sin, little sins, and yet (to go round again) that they cannot possible leave all while they live; So strengthening the hands of the wicked that he can't return from his wickedness, by such pleasing sing-songs and lullabies as these, not a just man uppon earth that does good and sins not, and the Saints have their infirmityes, and David himself was overtaken with Adultery and Murder, and yet stood accepted with God, and was, even when under the guilt of those gross sins, not in a condemned, but in a justified estate, and Prov: 29. who can say I have made my heart clean? and such like: Not heeding that though none can (nor do we as∣sert any such thing that we have any sufficiency of our selves to good) yet alsufficiency is in God and his grace is sufficient, so that God can, if men look to him in his light, make clean the heart, and man a young man in whom youthful lusts are strong, by the Power of God and, taking heed to his way by his word in his heart, may cleanse his way, and so some do, though they are but few, nor does (Who can say I am clean from mine iniquity? not one) Exclude all from cleannesse, implying only (as often such in∣terogations do) no otherwise then thus viz: that few can, for though an interogation affirmative of this sort (for the most part) concludes ne∣gatively, yet not alwayes universally so, but some are included in the af∣firmative both according to the Poets and the Prophets: Quis legit haec? Per: so Isa. 53: who believeth our Report? vel duo vel neme, few or none:

Adde to this these considerations in proof thereof: If sin be Christs Ene∣my in his Saints, which none denyes, then must it be, destroy'd in them before, not after death, for the last enemy that is to be destroyed is death. But the 1st. is true, therefore this latter.

Again the perfecting of the Saints is the very end of Christs Ministry to the Church-ward Eph. 4.11, 12, 13. which end it must accomplish in this life or not at all, for it ceases in that to come, as Scripture and prophecy and all such mediums do (as I.O. confesses) being accommodated presenti huic statui, to this present world onely Ex. 3. S. 39. and if it be not here attainable, and free∣dom from sin not possible to be accomplished, then ye make Christs Ministry as imperfect as your own (absit blasphemia) the perfection of every thing consi∣sting in nulla alia re [quoth I.O. Ex. 3. S. 24.] no other thing then in its sufficiency

to attain its end: And in every discipline that (quoth he) is to be counted im∣perfect, which sinem propositum suum assequi potis non est, is not of force to effect its propounded end.

Yea not onely the 1 act of regeneration, which is all ye count as attaina∣ble here, but also the 2. Act or Consummation and perfection of it is attainable, and is the very end of the true spirituall Ministry of Christ, which is his gift and infallible, for the Text runs so concerning that Ministryes continuance here, which ceases after death, till we all come into the unity of the Faith and Knowledge of the Son of God i. e. to know him all alike, and to one per∣fect man, even to the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ: So that all that are truly born from above of water and the Spirit (not Bastards, born of flesh into a talk of the new birth that yet know it not,) into the divine nature of Christ, may come up into the measure of his stature, to be as he is, in whom is no sin, to walk as he walk'd in this world, 1 Ioh. 2. 6. 1 Ioh. 4.17. or else the end of the Ministry is frustrated: And to say that God appoints a means to an end, no way attainable. I.O. Himself detests that (as his principles are) and so do all that hold that undenyable maxime, that Deus nil facit frustra.

Again tis the end of the Scripture (quoth I. O) persicere omniae, to perfect All things pertaining to our salvation: Therefore perfect salvation from sin is here attainable, otherwise the Scripture is not perfect (as I. O. sayes it is) to its own end, sith it ceases in the world to come (as he confesses also) therefore though he contradict himselfe so as to say the Scripture obtains not its end here, yet if his saying that it does obtain its end, and its end is saving the soul, be true this (ad hominem) is an Argument out of his own mouth sufficient to evince, to the stoppoing of it, a possibility of being saved from sin in this life.

Again, they, that walk not after the flesh, and fulfill not the lusts of it, sin not, for sin is the fruit and effect of the lust, which must conceive, be consented and yielded to, before sin can be brought forth Iam. 1.14.15. a man must be led a∣way of his own lust before he sins.

But there be some that walk not after the flesh, that fulfil not the lust of it.

Yea they that are in Christ Jesus to whom is no condemnation (which con∣demnation by the Law is where ever sin is, which is the transgression of the Law:) Rom. 8.1. yea more expressely they that are in Christ, are new creatures, the old things, the old man and his deeds, 2 Cor. 5. Rom. 6. Eph. 4. Which is renewed after the Image of him, who created him in righteousness and holyness of truth, not a meer imputed one, a meer computed one, an imaginary one, a sound of words, a talk, not a shadowy one, not a shew of holinesse where it is not substantially, inherently indeed, and in truth, but a sinning under the name of Saints: Yea more expressely yet, from Rom. 8. If Christ be in in you the body is dead because of sin, and Rom. 6. how shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein, such there are in whom Christ is, and these are dead to sin, and those that are dead to it, live not in it, it is mortified in such in facto esse, not in fieri only i.e. mortifying ever as long as we live, yet never dead till they be dead, as our dead Divines deliver: Ye most expressely of all Gal. 5. they that are Christs (and some are his though the pleaders for sin and the Devils dwelling in them till they dy are none of his) have (in prae∣terito)

crucified the flesh, not with the actions of it onely, but also with the affections and lusts thereof: And though there is a time of dayly dying (I dy∣day••y saith Paul, 1 Cor. 15. (in the light, which is the crosse of Christ to the ca••∣nailm••nd) to the world and the lust of it, which passeth away before him that doth the will of God, and abideth eve••: Yet there is a time of being cru∣cified to the world with Christ and the world unto such, which Paul, witnessed 2 Cor. 12. And howbeit 14. yeares before that, Paul hast a Thorn in the flesh, a Messenger of Satan to buffet him, least through many Revelations he should be exalted above measure, whence the Ministers of the night and darknesse ar∣gue (a ma••••i ad m••nus) that Paul sinned while he liv'd, much more must o∣thers, not heeding that his Thorn was but a Temptation to prevent his trans∣gression and therefore no•• a transgression of itself (for Christ was tempted, yet never sinned) and beside though it lay haunting and attempting him, and was not soon removed, yet on his prayer that grace was given, which was sufficient to support him under it. so that he fell not by it, yet if it had prov∣ed a transgression, 'twould not have proved him that sine'd 14. yeares ago to have been a sinner now, much lesse to have sinned so long as he lived, and so to have been [an as for example] for all seeming Saints to argue from, that they may safely and must unavoidably continue sinning to their dying day. There∣fore salvation from sin is attainable in this life: Yea this very conclusion here inferr'd, is in plain termes asserted by Peter of the Saints, 1 Pet. 1. of whom he sayes, that they received the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls, which salvation (I say till) is from the sin (which slayes and separates it from God) or else from nothing.

Moreover such as walke after the Spirit, and in the light, and are led thereby, these sin not, nor do the deeds of darknesse, which are sin For the light and Spirit lead none into sin: But there be such as walk in the light, in the day, in which if a man walk, saith John, he stumbles not, 1 Ioh. Much lesse falls••: There be some that walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, and are led by the Spirit, and those that are led by it are not under the Law [the lash of which they would be under, as all sinners are, if they transgressed it] but under grace. And these are the Sons of God, those that are born of God, whom the world knowes not 1 Ioh. 1, 2, 3. for they are his hidden ones, Psal. 83. against whom they take crafty councel, as against an impure generation, though they purify themselves even as Christ himselfe is pure, whilst such as know nei∣ther the Sons of God, nor whose Sons themselves are while they sin, are that generation that's pure in their own eyes, though not yet washed from their filthiness, nor meaning to be so here.

Who ever walkes after the Spirit, and no more after the flesh and lusts of it [at it seems by that very Text Rom. 8. some do, to whom alone theres no condemnation because no sin, for they are in Christ & so out of the transgression, in the light, out of the darknesse, in but one of which a man can be at one time] such sin not, who ever they be, unless T.D. I.O. and the whole Gang of blind guides, who tell people that none but that person that Christ appeared in a Ierusalem, ever were, shall or can be fu••ly freed from sinning in this world, will [being ••ore shooes, in that sink of sottishness] run ore boots too, so as to say the Light and Spirit leads such, as follow and walk after it, into lust and sin Therefore there are some that live without sinning.

And this is one infallible Argument from the very letter it self (if it were not become now as a Book sealed to the learned lookers into it that freedom from sin was attainable by the power of Christs light, and the grace of God (which alone even we say is sufficient to that end) and was at∣tained by Paul and others then, and therefore may be now, even in this life, in that Pan•• declares concerning Law of the Spirit of life which is in Christ Iesus (the head from whence, as the holy ointment, it runs down to the Skirts of the Garment, and as the unction 1 Ioh. 2. abides in his body teaching all things,) it had made him free from the law of sin and death, of which Law of sin and death he relates in that 7. Chapter that he was once wretched by reason of its carrying him captive to it self, of its motions of sin working in him, and bringing forth fruit in him unto death, of its warring in his members against the Light or Law of God in his mind, by which he had the knowledge of sin in the very lust of it, as that he should not covet nor lust to envy, anger, uncleanness, &c. Which the Scribes and Pharises Mat. 5. and Paul himself (while a Pharisee) looking into the l••tter without only [as he did from a child] knew not till he turn'd to the light within and came to the Law in the Spirit, till he and it came to look each other in the face; from which time, and not from his looking into the letter he saw the Law in the spirituality, holinesse, righteousness and goodnesse 〈◊〉〈◊〉, and [for all his former for∣mality and strict pretence to unrighteousness & profession of a letter ad extra] his own meer naughtinesse and carnality, as that of one that was still sold under sin and a committer of it, in the sight of God from whose wrath that old drosty, dunghilly righteousnesse of his own Phil. 3. which was not Christs [as T. D. blasphemously belyes it to be, p. 22. 1. Pamp.] could not deliver him, till he witness'd himselfe cloth'd with another, even that righteousness which is of God by faith in Christ, not imputed onely, but imparted also to the true sanctification, as well as justification of every one that believeth, which passages nevertheless of that 7th chap. to the Romans and that 12. of his 2d. Ep. to the Corinthians: our senseless Seers have made, among others, one of their main common places from whence to prove the very contrary, even that there is no such freedom from sin, while in the body; but that of necessity, it must be acted by the Saints themselves, while they breath upon this out∣ward earth: For [say they] if Paul complained of a body of sin and death while he liv'd, and how he was sold under sin, and carryed captive to the Law of it, and of the Law of sin wa••ring in his members against the Law in his mind, so that he could not do the good he should, but when he would do good, evill was pre∣sent with him, and also of a Thorne in his flesh, a Messenger of Satan to buffet him [as he does 2 Cor. 1, 2, 3. &c.] and all this after his conversion to his dying day: Then much lesse can any other Saints expect to be set so free from sin, by what power soever in this life, as to live and not sin, and such like! But Paul did so, there∣fore what man can do otherwise? Who can ever live and not sin?

Thus they argue against Qua. as a damnable sort of Hereticks, that de∣liver a doctrine of Devils, because they hold out, as attainable, that hellish thing, as they count it, call'd holiness, and such freedom from sin in this life, so as not to commit iniquity any more; not considering all this while that Paul in those terms speakes what he once was, [yea even after his conversion to the light] till sin was wholly subdued, by the light condemning it in his flesh and

bringing forth in him judgement over it into victory, and not of what he was at the writing thereof, in which time he sayes the Law of the Spirit had made him free from that Law of sin: Not yet heeding at all that the Thorn in the flesh was not a transgression, but a temptation, with which God exercised him, that he might shew the sufficiency of his own grace to support and keep him from transgression, even from that sin of being exalted above mea∣sure, and that no lesse then 14. years before he wrote this, and not just then when, or while he wrote it, much lesse a transgression that remain'd unmortified in him till his dying day.

One argument more I shall urge from I: O's: own book thus viz: If perfect Salvation from sin be the proper end of the Scripture, and it be perfect to that its end, and does perfect it, and yet does what it does in this present world [or nowhere] to which it is accomodated only, and ceases to do ought into the world to come, then that perfect Salvation must be wrought out by it, or here, or no where at all: But all the former are asserted abundantly ore and ore again as truth, by I: O: himself, Ex: 3: 5: 28: 22: Therefore the conclusion is consequently true that its either here or no where: Again they all say in opposition to the Pope, ther's no Purgatory in the world to come, therefore it must be here or no where, unlesse they know any other world between this present world & that which is to come, which middle world though I have heard some talk of a world in the Moon, I am not yet acquainted with.

There be some therefore that sin not, in whom the Law is not transgrest, but sin condemn'd and judged in their flesh, so that the Righteousnes of the Law by Christs Power is fulfild in them, and they walk not after the the flesh but after the Spirit, which is the end of Gods sending his Son in the likenesse of sinful flesh, and of his sending out his light into mens hearts, even that Law of the Spirit of Life which is in himself, viz: to make men free from that law of sin and death, which sometimes they obeyed to condemnation, and to condemn sin in the flesh, and out of it also by his Iudgment brought forth into victory over it, that his Righteous∣ness might be Revealed, and the Righteousness of the Law, which he fulfilled in himself, might be [by him] fulfilled [in us] also:

Many more passages truly there are in T: D's: and I: O's: books [besi∣des these many that have bin spoken to] some of which are worth no more [being but confusion] then confutation, and some of which also are not worth so much, and therefore I shall draw to an end [making many books and much writing being wearisom] but by these men maybe admonished what a meer Fallible kind of guidance they must expect from their Uni∣versity Admired leaders, while they hate the Light of God in their own hearts, and hang only on their lying lips for their learning the plain∣Soul-saving Truth of Christ,

Notes

• Ex. 3. S. 24. Directi∣onem nostram in cognitione Dei, obedientia ei praestan∣da ita ut tandem volunta∣tem ejus facientes, salu∣tem eternam ac ipsius fru∣itionem assequamur, hunc finem immediatum datio∣Scripturarum atque. adeo ipsarum Scripturarum esse contendimus: Cum vero disciplinae cujusvis perfe∣ctio consistat in relatione ad finem, caque perfecta habenda sit qua suffici∣ens est respectu finis sui proximi, ea vero imperfe∣cta quae finem propositum assequi potis non est, perfe∣ctio scripturarum in nulla alia re consistere potest quam in sufficientia sua respectu finis sui proprii, qui est instructio hominum &c. Vt salutem aeternam assequantur: hoc sensu eam perfectissimamasserimus: Ex. 3. S. 39. Cessabit scripturae usus praesenti stat ui accomodatus.

  Ex. 3. S. 39.Falsissi∣mum est sacram scriptu∣ram, dum in hoc mundo haeremus respectu nostri totum sinem suum obtinere aut obtinere posse.
• J.O. Ex. 3. S. 39. Fanaticos non esse perfe∣ctos nobis Testimonio sunt illorum mendacia, fraudes, scelera, hypocrisis; iis vero, qui immunes se es∣se ab his omnibus aliis{que} peccatis vel levissimis impudenter gloriantur, punitiones & incarcera∣tiones esse debeant.
• Memorandum that to A. P. T.D. said 'tis cor∣rupt nature by which the heathen Rom. 2. are said to do the things contained in the Law: and here he takes the actions of corrupt natures for some of the things that are to be mortified: it should seem then the heathen [if it be an action of corrupt nature to do the things of the Law must morti∣fy their deeds done in o∣bedience to the Law, thus it must be accord∣ing to T. D's. princi∣ples.
• Witness Gideon twice together before he could believe Isarel should be delivered from Median by his hand for which the Lord was not angry with Him, Judg. 8.6.36.

  And Ahar also, with whom the Lord was an∣gry because he would not ask a sign when God bad him, Isa. 7.10.11.12.13.14.
• Where the participle [perfected] is construed with the word [Just men] not [Spirits] Pneumasi Dikaion Te∣teleiomenon: