Christianismus redivivus Christndom both un-christ'ned and new-christ'ned, or, that good old way of dipping and in-churching of men and women after faith and repentance professed, commonly (but not properly) called Anabaptism, vindicated ... : in five or six several systems containing a general answer ... : not onely a publick disputation for infant baptism managed by many ministers before thousands of people against this author ... : but also Mr. Baxters Scripture proofs are proved Scriptureless ... / by Samuel Fisher ...

Baptist.

To those without? I wonder who those are? those without your Church must be out of the Nation too for ought I know, and cannot well see what is done by you in it: but to let that passe.

Here is thunder enough, but no lightning, a shrill sound but an empty barrel; such is Mr. Baxters book indeed, specially this twofold fardle about murder and adultery, in which whether there be more noise or non-sense I know not, but sure I am there is ten times more twittle-com-twattle then truth: this doctrine would make a terrible rumbling in a Country Church as they say, and make all the peo∣ple amazed to hear what manner of men these Anabaptists be, but he that sleeps there with his eyes open, will be s••und no more at the hearing of this clamor, then by the barking of the bells in the steeple; I must needs confesse that this is matter of weight indeed, and a stone is heavy, and the sand weighty, but a fooles wrath is heavier then them both: this soon shot bolt is big enough to hurt where it hits, but as it happens it hits not us: and so happens to hurt them most that mannage it; as for us, against whom it is managed, it rejoices us rather then otherwise, sith it reproaches and reviles, and saies all manner of evil against us falsely for Christs sake Mat. 5.11.12. 1 Pet. 4.13.14.15. if our dipping were such evil doing i. e. murder and adultery as these men say it is, we had reason to hang down our heads indeed, and might well be ashamed in suffering from them in this particular, but sith as Paul said Act. 24.13▪ they cannot prove the things whereof they ac∣cuse us, we are not ashamed, but glorifie God on this behalf.

Of these two accusers of the brethren Mr. Cook is more candid, and a little more modest then the other, and yet he utters so much that he hath much reason to be ashamed of it, for howbeit he does not so audaciously charge us with that foul fact of naked dipping as the other doth, yet by some simple supposals,

First, that persons cannot be rightly baptized by dipping with a garment on [as if they may not be put under, and covered and buried therein cloathed aswell as naked, and as if a soaking or steeping in water (Mr. Baxters bald conceit of our dipping) were not a washing or burying.]

Secondly that it is as unwarrantable to baptize garments, as tis for the Papists to baptize bells [as if those that baptize persons in garments, did as directly, and intentionally baptize garments, as the papists do baptize bells, or as if it were more unwarrantable for us to wet the cloathes, that persons are baptized in, when we baptize their bodies, then tis for the priests to wet the head cloaths of infants when they rantize their faces.]

By such silly supposals I say as these that there can be no true totall dipping, unless the persons be uncloathed, he subtly insinuates the world into a certain suppositi∣on, at least a shrewed suspition that dipping naked is the onely baptism dispensed among us, for which hee'l once be ashamed; but as for Mr. Baxter he is so un∣ingenuous, impudent and uncivilly foolish in this present parcel of his, you have here spread before us, that I professe against it as having in it much falsenesse, and more immodesty then I ever saw expressed at the totall dipping of any person that ever I saw dipped in my life: for he not only makes a long supervacaneous dis∣course of his dislike of dipping women and maids naked (in which is such a need∣lesse and over often nomination of those termes too, as tends more to the offending of chast, and corrupting of unchast consciences, then to any use of edifying at all) but also most rashly relates it to the whole world to be the usuall, ordinary known practise of a people, that are as abhorrent of such abominations as him∣self.

As for his Argument it is a fallacy called Ignoratio Elenchi, for he concludes not the point in question, for they, who stand most for baptizing by totall dip∣ping, are all (for ought that ever I heard of) as much against naked dipping as himself: yea so far are we all, (if any had been otherwise minded Mr. Baxter

would surely have assigned them, whose design was to vilifie us what he could, so far are we all from countenancing such a practise, that I dare, in the name of all the Churches of the Baptists through England, declare their unanimous utter detestation of it, in Mr. Baxters own words, viz. that it is a breach of the se∣venth Commandment, an intollerable wickednesse, an immodest action, an incitement to uncleannesse, likely enough to raise jealousies in Ministers wives, yea and other womens husbands too, and so to foment continuall dissention, a means to debauch people, and bereave them of all common civility, modesty, ingenuity, and humanity, to turn Gods worship into contempt, and make it meer∣ly ridiculous, to bring a general reproach upon the Christian profession among all the enemies thereof, yea amongst the most sober and discreet, to discredit the truth, and prejudice men against it; yea verily tis scandal, reproach and discredit e∣nough, in that it is but belied by Mr. Baxter to be so base, how much more, and more justly would it be reproached, if his reports were as true as they are full of falsehood; we I say acknowledg the practise of naked dipping to be as bad, as Mr. Baxter proves it to be, therefore quorsum haec? to what purpose doth he with such prolixity proceed to prove, what no sober minded man of either party doth deny?

This is aliud a negato; a plain absurd a berration from the question, which is not whether it be a sin ordinarily to dip naked or no? but whether we ordinari∣ly use that kind of dipping?

The first which none doubts of, he indeavours to make evident as one that light▪ a candle, whereby to shew men that the sun shines.

The second, which is unknown utterly among us, he proclaims to be our usual, notorious, known practise: but he offers no proof of this at all.

Such silly Sophistry as this Mr. Baxter uses also in almost every of these Argu∣ments, whereby he professes to disprove our practise as unwarrantable, conclud∣ing all along another point than that in question; for whereas our tenet is that persons at years, professing to believe, of what parents so ever born, are to be baptiz∣ed, he most simply, and sinisterly concludes against us, as he supposes, in a mat∣ter of four or five Arguments that the children of Christians may not be baptized when they come to years, and that this practise of baptizing of Christians chil∣dren is utterly unconsistent with the Rule of Christ: as for us we say as much, neither is it our practise or opinion to baptize Christians children at age, upon that account meerly, as they are Christians children any more then the children of them that are no Christians, unlesse they professe to be believers and Christians them∣selves as their parents do, and upon that account, viz. as they professe to be∣lieve, we baptize hea••hens children as soon as them.

Thus the man busies himself beyond measure in beating the aire, and wearyes himself ad ravim us{que}, and his reader ad nauseam in refuting non entities, about the proof of such things as no body denies, and per ignorationem Elenchi concludes that, which is as clear to his Antagonists▪ as to himself, and leaves that utterly unde∣monstrated, which is the onely thing denyed by them, the absurdity of whose way he pretends it to be his businesse to discover.

For verily those, against whom he fights under the name of Anabaptists, are as clear in it as he can be, that no Christians child qua talis is to be baptized when he comes to years, saving upon the same account, on which an heathens child may be at years so baptized as well as he, viz. his own personal profession of faith, and desire of baptism.

Again they hold dipping naked to be intollerable wickednesse as well as he, yet these things he be labours himself not a little in making good, but that which is denyed indeed, viz. that it is our usual practise to dip women and maids nak∣ed, this he charges us with most stoutly, most desperately, and tells a tale of us most absurdly to the base abusing of himself, the true Church, and the whole

world also, but he is so impertinent, and impertinently imployed in proving naked dipping to be a sin, that he either forgets, or has no while to prove it to be practised by us at all,

But Sirs who, but he that sees the right eye of the idol shepheard to be utte••∣ly darkned, would ever think that from such a man as Mr. Ba. desires to be ac∣counted, such a piece of paultry should proceed, that such a messe of balter∣dash as here is should ere be broached by him, that such a mad report of the walk∣ers in truth should be publisht by one that goes for a publisher of the truth among thousands of deluded people?

Me thinks I see Satan gone forth and become a lying spirit in the mouthes of the prime among their prophets, perswading and in the just judgement of God prevailing with multitudes of meer formal Gospellers to be strongly deluded, and to believe lies out of their mouthes that they may be damn'd, because they receive not the truth, that was troden down for 42 monthes, and now rises again and shines forth, in the love therof that they may be saved, but have pleasure in unrighteousness and super∣stition and have no pleasure in the truth.

Me thinks I see National Ministers of singular piety in peoples eyes prove men of singular pravity, singularly bewitched into an implicit belief of the base tales that vain fellowes raise of the way of truth, and singularly bewitching their peo∣ple into implicit belief of them, that so it is as they say, that neither Priest nor peo∣ple may obey the truth, but both stumble, and fall and be broken, and snared, and taken, and ashamed each of other in the end.

Good Lord how is the practise of the truth made a reproach unto thy people, and a derision dayly? for I have heard the defaming of many, report say they, and we will report it, possesse the pulpit and make the Priest believe it, and then all the Country shall ring out, and the people soon be diabolized into the faith on't; but hear ye rude reprochers of that people, that are reprovers of the wayes, whereby you run a whoring from the Lord, you shall not prevail by such sleights, such plausible pretences, you shall be greatly ashamed, you shall not prosper, and, unlesse you repent of your belying the truth of God, your everlasting confusion, shall never be forgotten.

It is too bad to be credulous to flying reports, worse so violently to vent them, worst of all malevolently to invent them, I dare not say, nor dare I deem Mr Ba. to be guilty of the last, but of the two first I cannot clear him, sith I perceive that he takes it for a truth that we ordinarily dip naked, and thereupon disputes a∣gainst it as our usuall practise, and then not confidently onely, but of a certain re∣lates to the whole world that it is no bare word, nor any doubtful thing, but an experience, a known practise: if he can clear himself he hath leave to do it for me, who also summon him in the name of Christ Jesus, whose true disciples he hath done such dispite to (the Lord keep him from despiting the spirit of grace) the people of whose love are the people of his wrath, to prove it our practise ordinari∣ly to dip naked, yea to produce but one instance of any women o•• maids that ever he saw dipt naked in all his daies, and Ile abate him much of that I now accuse him of in the court of my conscience, but if he say as indeed he does in effect that he never saw any dipt at all, whilst p. 134. he saies that all that ever he saw bap∣tized had water powred on them, how can he say Epertus loquor, it is his expe∣rience, he having never so much as seen such a thing, unlesse it were upon the bra∣zen fac't front of Featleyes book, where he fasly, feignedly, and filthily describes men and women dipping in that fashion, or else upon the Titlepage of Ephraim Pa∣git, who there paltrily pictures out this people practising, thus and there I believe he hath experienced it, or if he only hath it from the the mouthes of such as heard it from the mouthes of others, who never saw it, but receive it by tradition as well as he, and that originally too from the mouthes of some that made it, and in such a manner very likely it was first bruted, for I am perswaded there was never such a

thing done of late in England unless by some Arch Knave and Arrant Whore in way of mockage to the Gospel, which is rather a glory, then a shame to Christ his truth, then let Mr. Ba. bear the blame of his blind blaspheming the people of the e∣verliving God.

Or if he know indeed that such a thing as baptizing maids and women naked hath been done in serious wise by any persons, I further challenge him to make some proof of it, and to print the names of such men as have done it; and such maids and women that have suffered themselves to be dipped naked, and the names of such credible eye witnesses as will testify it as in the sight of God, which if he can, though I shall not give place to him thereupon so as to be satisfyed ther∣by for his overlashing in asserting it to be our practise to dip naked, or for con∣demning and denominating a whole party, much more their cause, by the defects & abuses of some persons whom the cause disclaimes, for then there was 12. devils because one among the twelve, and then what an Augaean stable is your Church of England by many members of which notorious roguery is committed every houre? Yet I shall satisfy him so far as to undertake that the Church, or Churches where such are shall declare every such person as hath wrought such abomination, incommunicable without solemn repentance for that sordid practise, or be themsel∣ves incommunicable by all other Churches.

But I beli••ve he cannot do it, though I cannot positively possibly prove a Ne∣gative, much more am I confident that he cannot make good his charge against us, viz. that it is our ordinary and usual practise: for besides no lesse then between one and two hundred, which in grosse I can ghesse at, which with these hands I have baptized, I have seen with these eyes many a one more baptized by others, yet never did I see male or female baptized naked to this hour, nor next to naked neither, if I understand Mr. Baxs. meaning in that bawbling phrase of next to na∣ked; Yea I suppose I may safely say my converse for these 5 years together and upward hath been with them that are commonly called Anabaptists, and my bu∣sinesse hath been for so long time at least among that people more then I perceive Mr. Baxs. hath, and much more then among any other people, being more or lesse acquainted with a score of their Congregations, yet howbeit Mr. Blake flings a little at us too, and hath his fingers so far in this spatter, as to say page 8. Those that have put a kind of necessity upon dipping have spoken much of being receiv∣ed naked ••n baptism,

I never heard the least speech of such a thing, nor a syllable among them to such a purpose.

And if Mr. Ba. cannot prove it to be our ordinary known practise to dip naked then in the name of the Lord Jesus before whom he and I shall shortly both ap∣pear, I intreat Mr. Ba. who as concerning zeal yet persecutes the Church of God, & poures out reproach upon true Christians, giving his voice for them with as much modesty as Haman Est. 3.8. as for high way Murderers, alias that they may all suffer execution being through blindnesse and excaecation exceedingly mad a∣gainst them, that of an ignorant Saul he would become a seeking, a searching, a seeing, a preaching Paul of the faith, which he hitherto destroies: and though he verily thinks with himself that he ought to do what he does against the truth, yet I beseech him to know that he is but as others have been b••fore him, zealous of God, but not according to knowledg, sith it is but of the Traditions of his Fa∣thers Gal. 1.14,

And sith he avers from his heart page 129. that for his part he neither knowes the day nor year when he began to be sincere, no nor the time when he began to professe himself a Christian, in which I believe him, if he mean a Christian in Scripture sense, I begg of him in the bowels of Christ Jesus, that he would now begin to be sine cerâ a Christian indeed, not by the halves, but altogether, for there is yet a mixture of much wax among his honey, and of much antichristi∣anism

in his Christianity, and as sure as he is ignorant when he began to professe to be a Christian, so sure I am that he never yet began to professe to be a Christian in truth, who knowes not that ever he was otherwise, but hath and holds his pro∣fession as the Turk and Jew do theirs viz. for the true one at a venture, because they were born and bred in it, and received it by Tradition onely from forefathers.

And as he will prove himself to be what he professes to be viz. a hater of igno∣rant violence, so I advise him to be a hater also of violent ignorance, of which hateful quallity in my mind he hath as much as any of the greedy gang, Gangraena it self onely excepted, not excepting Dr. Featley, Dr. Bastwick, Mr. Bayliff, Mr Pagit, not any among the proud pack of Prelates, that most perheminently prate against the Gospel.

And sith Mr. Ba. saies this much more that it is very suspicious, and to him unsavory that Mr. T. should say no more but that it is not necessary that they be baptized naked, as if he took it to be lawfull, though not necessary, and thinkes he should rather have given his Testimony against it as sinful, and expressed some dislike if he do indeed dislike, and judge it sinful, and if he do not he dare boldly say he is very far gone, let me say thus much more, that then it is as suspicious, and to me unsavory, that Mr. Ba. should say no more but that it is a breach of the seventh commandement, ordinarily to baptize the na∣ked, as if he took it to be lawful to do it sometimes, but not ordinarily: me thinks he should giue his Testimony against it as sinful, to do it at all, and express some dislike if he do indeed dislike and judge it sinful, and if he do not, I dare boldly say he is gone farther in filth, then Mr. T. or any baptized person ever went yet, save such as are gone quite off from the way of truth to the dishonour of it since they owned it, whose sin yet (the more shame for Mr. Ba.) he in his next ar∣gument, laies to the truths charge, and theirs, who both own and honour it by abiding in it, who are lesse gladly, and more sadly sensible of their sins, and villa∣nies then Mr. Ba. can be, by how much by reason of their lasciviuos wayes, which many follow, the way of truth they walk in is, as was foretold it should be 2 Pet. 2.1.2.3. by Mr. Ba. and his admirers evil spoken of.

But if Mr. Ba. shall still say it is suspicious and unsavory for Mr. T. to say the one, but not for himself to say the other, and will none of the foregoing advice to repent and be baptized, but rather reject the counsel of God against himself being not baptized, because he hath experience (by hearsay) that we baptize females naked, then a rod and a rod for the back of Mr. Baxter, who pardons to himself the same defects, wherein he holds others guilty, who so slenderly takes up every tattle a∣gainst the truth, and proclaimes it for truth to the whole world, for the simple be∣lieveth every word, but the prudent man looks well to his going Prov. 14.15 a prudent man foresees evil and secures himself, but the simple passe on and are pu∣nished Prov. 22.3.

As for his next and last argument against us which he drawes from the judgments of God that ever follow us, wherein he jumbles all kinds of sectaries into the name of Anabaptists as the Antibaptists use commonly to do, witnesse Featley and others, and makes them bear the burden of all the mischiefs that were ever perpetrated by all the mad braind men in all the world, as Iohn of Leyden and all the rest of his ran∣ting strain, it is scarce current consequence to say Gods judgements are upon a people, therefore that people are none of his, for all things come alike to all, & none knowes love or hatred by what is before him here Eccl. 8.14. and the 9.1.2.3. yet sith he speaks of ruinating judgements, let the consequence passe as valid, but then his minor is utterly false, for the Anabaptists are not all ruinated yet, nor will be till the Clergy are quite cashiered, as evident as it is that they have every where withered and suddenly come to nought heretofore, and since he speakes of spiritual judgements e. g. that practise saith he hath never helped, but hindred the work of God where it comes, nor hath God blest their ministry to con∣version

of soules as he hath other mens, but rather they have been instruments of the Churches scandal and misery.

Secondly, that hath been the inlet to most other vile opinions, few stop at it but go much further, God hath usually given up their societies to notorious scan∣dalous wicked lives, and conversations more then others that professe godlinesse, and never prospered them so far as to have any established Churches, which should credit the Gospel. I grant that some of these are sad emblems of a people none of Gods, onely Mr. Ba. hath here saddled the wrong asse, for this way of bap∣tism hinders onely the work of mans Tradition, which would make void the commandement of God, but being it self the work and way of God, is hindred where ere it comes by Priestly malice, preaching Gods fear after precepts of men, nor hath God blessed the Nationall ministry to the true conversion of soules as he hath done theirs, but to the conversion of them to a Gospel of their own making, for repent and be baptized was the Gospel that Peter preached, and that is it that is now practised by us, and how many are converted and baptized accordingly is so evident, that it needs no proof at this hour, but repent and be not baptized is the Gospel the Priesthood preaches, and if you call that conversion, which indeed is confusion, we confesse their converts are more more then ours, such instruments of scandal and misery to the true Churches are the Priests in all places by their reproaches, nor is baptism the inlet of any vile opinions any more then the same was in the primitive times, wherein many that were baptized did turne hereticks, when they had done, as they do now, but what wise man then impu∣ted it to their baptism? and yet some of those opinions Mr. Ba. calls vile, will be proved to his conscience in due time to be the truth: yet many that are baptiz∣ed do run out to very vile opinions▪ and practises no better then their principles, and stop not there indeed as he saies, but go much further, and degenerate into wayes o•• wickednesse more abominable then ever in former time, and of these Ranters Mr. Copp is none of the least attainers, whom Mr. Ba. p. 148. hath very well set forth in his colours, for I believe God in Iustice hath given him up, and many other besides him to more notoriousnesse of error and enormity, then e∣ver any that profest godlinesse,

But what then? shall we impute that fault to his being baptized? I trow not; for howbeit Mr. Ba. so imagines, yet it was because he honoured not the truth, when he had owned it, nor walked in Christ after he had received him, in which case how often God gives over to strong delusions is evident, not only by the word, which declares that when men like not to retain God in their knowledge he oft gives them over unto vile affection,

But also by sad experience in the world in these last times, wherein 2 Pet. 2.1. 1 Tim. 4.1. and the 2.3.1. doctrines of divels are rife among them, that once owned the faith, yet the faith not a whit in fault for all that, but departure from the faith before expressed.

And that the fall of these men is into worse then ever before, it is no argument against, but rather for the way they newly fall from, the sensuality of such as se∣parate themselves from the true Churches in the later times, i. e. congregatio∣nal after these are once separated from the false ones i. e. the nationall, being prophesied of 2 Pet. 2. Iude 19. of old, that it should be greater then that of all beastly men that were before them; besides corruptio optimi pessima, the higher the rise into reformation, the more desperate the fall into deformation, of those that reform and prove deformed again: that greater depth of hell therefore men fall into that fall from us, proves the hight of our Churches to be neerer heaven, then that of yours, for if after they have escaped &c. 2 Pet. 2.20.21.22. when Cop was in his standing in the Church of England, I remember very well, for I knew him better then then ever since, he had some bounds from conscience to his corruption, but having been once inlightned higher then Mr. Baxter ever was yet

in the will and way of God, and tasted of the heavenly gift, and made a parta∣ker of the holy spirit, and obeyed the truth as it is in Jesus, and yet fallen away, his conscience is seard with a hot iron, and I have small hope of his renewing a∣gainst by repentance, who thus denies the Lord that bought him, and crucifies the Lord afresh, and is twice dead, pluckt up by the Roots, a raging wave of the sea foaming out his own shame.

But what is all this to those that yet walk in truth of baptism, more then to warn them that they depart not from it, as he hath done, lest they come into the same condemnation with him? doth it prove baptism to be the cause of that gros∣ness that often followes, when a person is baptized? in no wise, for his non abi∣ding in the love of the truth▪ and that doctrine of Christ gives God occasion to give over to the height of wickednesse.

I appeal therefore to the conscience of Mr. Baxter,

• 1. Whether the Pope may not by as good consequence charge all these errors that are upon Protestanism, saying Thus, the Ptotestants stop not there, but run out further from Episcopacy to Presbytery, and to Independency, and so to Anabaptism, and so to all? it is true, Protestanism is occasio or causa sine qua non, for such as sit still in the smoak of the Popes Traditions, are not ac∣quainted with the new found fancies of the Ranter, But Protestanism is not the true cause.
• 2: Whether Mr. Ba, be so well aware as he should be what time of day it is, when Peter and Iude point out these things so plainly; and yet he wonders at them as a Mystery?
• 3. Whether the few owning, and the few abiding in the true way of bap∣tism, doth not prove it to be the streit and narrow way that leads to life, which few find?
• 4. Whether he think we lay not to heart their misery and madnesse that run off from us as well as he, and strive not to warn and watch over them as much as he? and if so, why he blames us more then himself, that, do what we can, so many run to ruin? besides some he names were never baptized, though neer it, as Mr. Saltmarsh.
• 5. Whether it be just to load them that still stick to the truth, with the blame of all their blasphemies that go off from it? Tis true the way of truth will be evil spoken of by the Priest, by reason of the madnesse of the false Prophet 2 Pet. 2.2. but that is ought let every reasonable man examine: The Rantizer renounces his sprinkling, and is baptized in truth, and after renounces that, and runs on to be a Ranter, and then all is reckoned to his baptism: poor truth may say quum ne∣mini obtrudi potest, itur ad me: every one shifts it off from himself, and truth must carry the scandal, and baptism bear the burden of all: the Priest and his people are they by whom, the false Prophet and his people they by reason of whom the way we walk in is evil spoken of, but vae illis per quos, vae illis presertim propter quos, veritatis via blaspemabitur, quam optimum esset utris{que}, si nati non fuissent: Mat. 18.7. & 26.14. 2 Pet. 2.2.

What force therefore is in this Argument to conclude against the truth of our way? yea what absurdity is in all Mt. Baxters Arguments against us you see, in all which he sits beside the cushion, yea and indeed the whole bulk of them is no∣thing but a thing full of emptinesse.