A modest and free conference betwixt a conformist and a non-conformist about the present distempers of Scotland now in seven dialogues / by a lover of peace.

DIALOGUE I.

Con.

YOu are welcome from the West. How are all things there?

Non.

Never worse; The glory is departed from that people: and the power of godlinesse is gone there. God pity that poor place, which was once so Glorious.

C.

I perceive by your manner of speaking, that you are much concerned in these matters: but I pray you tell me wherein things are turned so much to the worse among you?

N.

Alas! are you such a stranger in Israel, as not to know these things? are not our gracious Mini∣sters taken from us? so that the work of God is much born down: the brave dayes of Communi∣ons,

Preachings, Prayers, are away; and in stead of the fire was once there, there remain but a few sparks in some secret corners: for, the precious Or∣dinances are gone.

C.

What you say upon the matter, I know well enough: but do not apprehend it to be of such importance, as you seem to do.

N.

What! do not you think it sad, that Christ is not Preached?

C.

God forbid but he be? I do not know how it is in your Country, but I am sure with us Christ is preached very faithfully, but I fear you consider not well what it is to preach Christ; do you think to tell us only of his death, is to preach him?

N.

No, no, but oh how doth my heart melt within me, when I remember how sweetly I have heard the Ministers there, clear up my interest in Christ?

C.

May be it was more sweetly then sincerly; for to tell you of an interest in him, while you are strangers to his Laws and Gospel, is to deceive you: since you can have no interest in the blood of Christ, till you have his Spirit dwelling in you.

N.

Blessed be God, I know no name to be saved by, but the Name of Christ: And I renounce mine own righteousnesse, and accept of his righteous∣nesse.

C.

It is very true, that we are saved by the blood of Christ: but it is as true, that we must be puri∣fied by his Spirit, else we are none of his. If by renouncing your own righteousnesse; you mean, what you naturally can perform without grace,

you are in the right, but if you lean so to Christs righteousnesse, as to neglect to be righteous your self, you with Iudas, kiss your Master, while you betray him. And I fear your Ministers studied more to convince you of the need of Christs righteous∣nesse, then of having any of your own: For in∣deed it is a cheap Religion, to lean so intirely to Christ, that we do nothing our selves.

N.

We are far from thinking there is no need of good works: We only exclude them from Ju∣stification, which is by Faith only.

C.

Truly your practices tell, you think there is as little need of them to Salvation, as to Justifica∣tion, remember the Gospel is plain and simple, and came not to teach men Sophistry or Logick: there∣fore I shall not contend with you about words or phrases: for as I believe, that Christ came to lay down his life a ransome for our sins; so if you be∣lieve, that without holinesse we shall never see the face of God, we are agreed in this matter. But I wish we all studied to live better, and then our differences would quickly end.

N.

Yes, I hear some of you are still talking of holiness and peace, but you forget truth: which is so necessary, that without it holiness is but hy∣pocrisie.

C.

I acknowledge that, if you speak of the funda∣mental Articles of our Faith. But all truths are not of equal certainty, nor of equal importance: now it is a certain and important truth, that there should be an unity in the Catholick Church; which

is not to be broken, but upon a matter of greater certainty and weight.

N.

One precious truth is worth all the world: therefore I will not quite one truth for the love of all men. Not a hoof, said Moses.

C.

If you were required to condemn or deny any thing you judged truth, I confesse you ought to obey God rather than man. But it is another case to quite the communion of the Church; be∣cause they are not, as you think, in the truth: unlesse that truth be of greater importance than is the Article of your Faith, The Catholick Church, and the communion of Saints. And when you are as sure of your call to contend for these truths, as Moses was of the will of God, you may use his words. Let me then examine you a little, how do you know your opinions are truths?

N.

Who can doubt of it? are they not the cause and interest of Christ, his Kingdom and Crown, his glorious work, to which we are all bound by the oath of God taken in the Covenant, whereinto even the children unborn are oblidged.

C.

If big words prove truths, you are full of them: But remember of whom the Apostle gives this Character, they speak swelling words of vanity. And there is no party but have the same language in their mouth: these are fine contrivances to lead away silly women captive, who would be ready to judge your blustering confidence, an evidence of truth, when a modester way of speaking is suspect of diffidence: whereas in right scales, the one looks

like arrogant pride, and the other like the modest Spirit of Jesus Christ.

N.

How can you deny, that what is now cried down, was the work of God?

C.

I confesse it was so the work of God, as the Prophet said, is there any evil in the City, and the Lord hath not done it: but in the sense you take it, it was as far from it, as darknesse is from light.

N.

How can you speak so, was not sin strangely born down in our dayes?

C.

I confesse you studied to represse some sins: so did the Pharisees. But remember the Apostle divides filthinesse, in that of the flesh, and of the Spirit: and indeed, the latter proves a much sub∣tiller and stronger opposition to the Gospel, than the former. It is true, some of these were re∣pressed by you; though I must add, in a way, scarce suitable to the Gospel: but for other sins, you were very gentle to them, nay, were guilty of them your selves: for they mingled in all you did.

N.

Now you begin to rail, and I cannot endure to hear those glorious dayes so spoken of. Is this the moderation you so much pro••esse?

C.

I love moderation as much as any can, and declare to you once for all, that I have no quar∣rel at any, for their opinions in these matters: nor shall I labour to disgrace the leaders of your party, by searching into their private escapes; a practice much used by you against us, your mouthes being ever full of bitter reproaches against some of our way: but it is directly contrary to the Spirit of

Christ and his Gospel, wherein we are put in mind to speak evil of no man. I shall therefore from your publick and avowed actions, and printed pa∣pers, shew how far you are out of the way of God. And first, what think you of your rebellion? this was the Soul of your whole work, and your Cove∣nant was a Bond to cement you in this.

N.

Call you fighting for God and his Cause, rebellion?

C.

It is yet under debate, whether it be the Cause of God: Suppose it were, shew me one place in either Testaments, that warrands Subjects fight∣ing for Religion? you know I can bring many a∣gainst it; yea, though the old dispensation was a more carnal and fiery one, than the new one is; yet, when the Kings of Iudah and Israel made A∣postacy from the living God, into ••eathenish Ido∣latry, some of the Kings of Iudah polluting the Temple of Ierusalem, as did Ahaz and Mannasseh, so that God could not be worshipped there, with∣out Idolatry, yet where do we find the people re∣sisting them, or falling to popular Reformations? Neither do the Prophets that were sent by God, ever provoke them to any such courses. And you know the whole strain of the New Testament runs upon suffering.

N.

The law of nature teacheth us to defend our selves, and so there is no need of Scripture for it?

C.

This is marvelous dealing, in other things you alwayes flee from reason, as a carnal principle, to Scripture; but here you quite Scripture and appeal to it: but it seems you are yet a stranger

to the very design of Religion, which is to tame and mortifie nature: and is not a natural thing, but supernatural. Therefore the rules of defend∣ing and advancing it, must not be borrowed from nature, but grace: The Scriptures are also strange∣ly contrived, since they ever tell us of suffering un∣der persecution: without giving your exception, that we resist when we are in a capacity. And I appeal to your conscience, whether it be a likelier way to advance Religion, fighting or suffering? since a carnal man can do the one, but not the o∣ther.

N.

How can we neglect the interests of Christ, and let them ruine, when we are in a capacity to defend them?

C.

If there were not a God who governs the World, your reasoning might have force: but do you think that God cannot maintain his own right, but the wrath of man must work his righteousnesse? nay, we see the contrary, for from the beginning, till this day, God hath made the sufferings of his people, the chief mean of propagating Religion; whereas fighting hath been ever fatal to it. And Christ did begin the Gospel with his suffering, though he could have commanded Legions of An∣gels for his defence.

N.

Christ knew it was the Fathers will that he must suffer.

C.

This shews how little you understand when you speak so: are not Christs injunctions our rule. Since then he forbade his Disciples to draw a sword for him, with so severe a threatning, as whosoever

will draw the sword, shall perish by the sword, this must binde us, and what he sayes to Pilate on this ••ead, My Kingdom is not of this world, &c. is so plain language, that I wonder how it doth not con∣vince all. I know there are some pitifull answers made to those places: but they are so irrational, that they deserve not a serious reply, and I am not of an humour to laugh at them: only take notice of this, that if an ingenuous man speak plainly, much more must the God of truth: Judge then whether these unworthy glosses, make Christ like∣er a nibling Logician, then the true and faithfull witnesse.

N.

Then you condemn our first reformation carried on by fighting.

C.

Since you go to examples, rather begin with the Ages that immediatly followed Christ, in which for three hundred years the Gospel was preached and propagated by sufferings, but never by fighting, though their number enabled them to it, and they were irritated by the cruellest provo∣cations and persecutions: And it is to be suppo∣sed, that they who saw and conversed with the A∣postles, understood their meaning better than these who lived at so great a distance from them: I ac∣knowledge there was force used in our Reformati∣on; but so much the worse for that: And you know the enemy sowes his tares, even in that field, wherein the Wheat is sowen. But never alledge to me the president of men, against the expresse Word of God.

N.

What say you then to these who died sealing

their opinion, fighting for Religion, with their blood?

C.

You put me to a hard lock, to rake amongst the ashes of the dead: As for those who died, I had that compassion for some of them, that I could wil∣lingly have redeemed their lives at the rate of mine own: And I doubt not but many sincerely follow∣ed their Conscience in it. But I am far from think∣ing the better of the Cause, because some died handsomly for it, otherwise I should be reconciled to Atheism, and all Heresies, who want not their pretended Martyrs. But I need go no further then England, at His Majesties Restauration, where the murderers of the late King, died gallantly, ow••∣ing what they did as the Cause of God. So the seal of a Martyr's blood, is not alwayes the seal of God.

N.

Well, but why do you remember bygones? We are now all good Subjects, and do bless God for His Majesties Restauration, and do pray for him more then you do.

C.

May be so, that he may be of your way; but, if that be not, I doubt your love to him is very cool. I do not remember bygones to bring an odi∣um upon you, but to shew that a course which was managed by a spirit of Rebellion, was none of Gods. As for your rejoycing at His Majesties Re∣stauration, I scarce believe it, since you will not keep a day of Thanksgiving for it.

N.

It is not that we scruple the thing, but be∣cause you make it a holy day.

C.

This is very nice, for by holy day we mean

••ot that the twenty ninth of May is a more sacred time, then other dayes: but that the day shall be devoted to holy exercise.

N.

This should not be enjoyned by the Magi∣strate, but by the Church, who ought only to or∣der the worship of God.

C.

I shall not against this alledge the commands of David and Solomon, since you may alledge they were extraordinary persons; but you cannot say that Esther and Mordecai were such, who enjoyned the observation of Purim, and call that Feast a good day; and the odds betwixt holy and good is not very great. And although there be no divine or∣der for the Feast of Dedication, yet our Saviour was at the Feast, and in the Temple: though you will not come to Church on the twenty ninth of May.

N.

Well then, all you can charge upon us is a little disloyalty, but for all that, our way may be the Cause of God: for even the Saints have their infirmities.

C.

Truly this is so great a one, that I dare pro∣nounce none a Saint, who hath been guilty of it, till he repent of it: But I am far from being at the end of your faults, having but begun with this. The next thing perswades me of your evil way, is, your cruelty and rigour: Did you not force all to take the Covenant, severely punishing such as would not? And did you not cruelly persecute all those who opposed you? Truly this hath so con∣firmed my aversion from your way, that I hope ne∣ver to be reconciled to this part of it.

N.

That was a fault too, and many of us are very sensible of it.

C.

Let not my soul enter into the secrets of bloody men: Your very Leaders, who if they had known any thing of the meek spirit, should have opposed these severities; not only countenanced, but drave them on, and rejoyced in them. And if they think it a fault, how comes it that none of them offers to disclaim it? Yea, some of you in your confessions of sins, and causes of wrath, rather tax your courses of too great lenity.

N.

Whoever may object that, you may be silent; for what severity have we felt? how many Ministers are turned out, and people oppressed for not owning you?

C.

I must in so far justify the rigour you have met with, as to show it is far short of yours. People are required to do nothing, but live peace∣ably, and joyn in Worship; whereas you made them swear to you: and the Ministers are not made swear to maintain the present establishment, and to root out the contrary, as you did; they are only required to concur in Discipline, and to promise submission to Episcopacy.

N.

Do you not wonder at my patience, who hear you inveigh so bitterly against us? but I let you see, a Presbyterian can be calm: I hope you have done.

C.

Not yet indeed; I am not trying your calm∣ness, but your conscience, and what I speak, is not to irritat, but to convince you. I shall next take notice of the great insolence and height was among

you: I speak not of personal pride, though I coul•• say enough on that Head: I only tax your public actings. What insolence was it, to assume bi•• names, of the godly party, and the people of God ••nd to call your way, The Cause and Kingdom o•• Christ? Whether looks this like the Pharisees an•• Hypocrites, or not? And in this you were punish¦ed with your own weapons: for the Protester•• wrung that from the rest of you, and the Indepen¦dants assumed it from you both.

N.

I am sure we were the Godly Party, compa¦red to those we had to do with.

C.

This bewrayes your arrogance: though it were so, you ought not to bear witness to your selves, nor assume such titles. Remember the Pharisee, who said, I thank the Lord that I am not like this Publican. You know the loudest preten∣ders have not alwayes the justest title.

N.

I hope now you have done with your scold∣ing.

C.

This is like all guilty persons, who take eve∣ry modest representing of their faults to them, as scolding and bitterness; so did the Jews use St. Paul. It shews the sore or disease is desperate, when the Patient cannot be touched. I have not yet be∣gun to scold, but I have not done with admonish∣ing. Next, How did your Leaders complain of Bishops their medling in matters of State: and yet when the Scene turned, how absolutely did they govern? Church-men grew the advisers of all busi∣nesses, Juntoes held in their houses. And how im∣pudently did the Church countermand the State,

Anno 1648. even in Civil matters? as were the Levying of Armies, and the paying of Taxes. And after the Tragical Catastrophe of the unlawfully called unlawful Engagement, they barred the No∣bility from their priviledges as Peers, till they must be satisfied.

N.

All that was done in order to Religion, which is in the Churches care.

C.

This is the very Plea of the Pope: and in∣deed in Politicks, the Pope and the Presbyterians agree in moe things than you think on. By this Maxime all Civil matters must come under Eccle∣siastical cognizance; since every action can be re∣duced to one of the Tables of the Law. But par∣ticularly to medle with War, and matters of Blood, hath been ever judged directly contrary to the Pa∣storal duty, which obligeth to feed, and not to kill. But I shall add one thing more, which was your Superstition.

N.

I had resolved to have objected that to you, and I am sure we cannot be guilty of it, since there is nothing we hate more?

C.

You know not the true notion of it, and so are guiltier then you are aware of. Superstition is an over-rating of things, as if God were more pleased with them, than indeed he is: And there∣fore to lay too great weight upon any thing, is su∣perstition. He then that judgeth a thing of it self indifferent, to be necessary: And he that condemns it as unlawful, are equally superstitious. It were a long and tedious story, to let you see how great weight you laid upon many small matters, both in

doing and forbearing. But I will leave particu¦lars to your conscience; and I protest in all I hav•• said, I have no other design, but to teach you no•• to have mens persons or wayes too much in admi¦ration.

N.

You have now run out in a long and furiou•• career against us: hear me next, reckon the excel¦lent things were amongst us, and I doubt not yo•• shall confesse our good did far preponderat ou•• evil.

C.

I shall hear you with all my heart, but in th•• mean time let us take a little refreshment an•• respite.

N.

Be it so.