Seuen dayes conference betweene a catholicke christian, and a catholicke Romane. Concerning some controuersies of religion. By William Cowper, B. of Galloway.

THE SECOND DAYES CONFERENCE. Concerning the Antiquitie of the Church of SCOTLAND, and how the Church of ROME in her best estate was but a sister, & not a mother Church vnto it.

C.

WHat say you to day (Sir) haue you considered the points of our last conference?

R.

Yea I haue beene (as I may) thinking vpon them.

C.

What? Is not your heart mooued to come to vs?

R.

I find it mooued, but not remooued from the Church of Rome.

C.

Tell mee (I pray you) what is that which holdes you from vs?

R.

To bee plaine with you, since the Church of Rome is your mother Church, you can with no good conscience for∣sake her.

C.

If that be all your scruple, I hope to resolue you: for this day by Gods grace I will shewe that we of this Church of Scot∣land had neuer our faith from the Church of Rome; yea that in her best estate shee was no

more but a sister Church vnto vs. The next day God willing I wil shew you that the Church of Rome is Apostatique now, not like that Church of olde, which the Apostle commen∣ded, and is not onely a Whoore her selfe, but the mother of Whooredomes.

R.

You haue taken much in hand.

C.

No more then by Gods grace I hope to qualifie, if you wil with patience heare me, and interrupt me not.

R.

Speake as long as you please, I shall heare you.

C.

No (Sir) I will be loath to burden you with multitude of words, but shall bee very well content, when you heare any point wherein weight is, that

you warne me to cleare it.

R.

Well, I shall doe so God willing.

C.

Then first I will saye, Rome hath beene no mother Church, neither to the Chur∣ches of Asia: these were planted by Apostles and Apostolicke men; Nor yet to the Churches of A••ricke: Christianity was first conueied to them by Marke the Euangelist, and the Eunuch of Ethiopia, whom Philip baptised: And I can let you see (but that I shall disgresse ouer farre) that fiue hūdreth yeres after Christ the Churches of Africke would not acknowledge the Bishop of Rome their superiour.

R.

Our question is not now concerning them: for I knowe the Church of Rome receiued

her faith from the Churches of Asia, and they of Asia recei∣ued it not from the Church of Rome. And as to them of A∣fricke, whatsoeuer is disputable, there wee leaue it as not pertai∣ning to our present puropse.

C.

Oh good Sir, you will grant then that the Church of Rome is farre posterior to the Churches of A••ia, and, if it bee compared with them, is but a daughter Church.

R.

That I can not denie: But the Churches of Europe, and specially these of the west parts were first conuerted to Christ by the Church of Rome.

C.

No (Sir) yee are decei∣ued in that also, and this is the point wherein I am to contra∣dict you.

R.

I am sure you will not contradict mee, without some warrant.

C.

That were no reason: I will let you see that the most fa∣mous Churches of Europe (as their Records testifie) had not their faith from the Church of Rome, and then I will come to our owne.

R.

I think long to heare that.

C.

And I will delay you no longer. In the Councel of Trent, there was a great question be∣tweene the French and Spanish Prelates, about the first place: The greatest Argument that a∣ny of them vsed, was from the Antiquitie of their Christiani∣tie, which none of them allead∣ged, they had from the Church of Rome, albeit at that time

both of them sought the Popes fauour.

R.

From whence got they it then, if they got it not from Rome?

C.

The Spaniards alleadged, they were made Christians by Saint Iames, who after hee had Preached the Gospell in Spaine, returned to Palestina, and was president of that famous Coun∣cell holden at Ierusalem, Act. 15 then being Martyred, his bones were brought to Compostella, and there buried. The French replied that their narration was fabulous, and that it is more likely, if any Apostle came to Spaine, hee came rather by land to France, and so taught them by the way, then otherwise by Sea: And if any credit might be

giuen to such traditions, they could also with more probabi∣litie alledge that Lazarus, and Nathaniel taught the Gospell a∣mong them▪ & this at that time they spake for themselues. But out of more certaine Storie this might bee said also for them, th••t Philip Preached the Gos∣pell in France: CRESCENS also Pauls Disciple, for there it is said 2. Tim. 4. TITVS is gone to Dal∣matia, and Cresc••ns to Galatia: Euseb. lib. 3. cap. calles it Gallia. Besides him Trophymus, another of Pauls Disciples taught at Or∣leance: Photinus againe, a very worthy man, and after him Irenaeus taught the Gospell at Ly∣ons. Germaine was first conuer∣ted by Lucius of Cyrene, Paules kinsman and companion. Yea

the Churches of Italy will not bee found to haue the Church of Rome for their Mother Church, for why Barnab••s first Preached the Gospell at Millan, as testifieth Sabellicus, and Apol∣linaris taught at Rauenna. But to come to the Church of Rome, tell mee, who did first conuert the Romanes to the Christian faith?

R.

Who but Saint Peter!

C.

I will not now contend with you about that matter though it bee very dispu••able, Whether Peter was at Rome or not; and your owne man Clemens, and Dorotheus also af∣firme, that Barnabas first taught the Gospell at Rome: But if Pe∣ter came to Rome, what time came he to it?

R.

I cannot well remember.

C.

I will helpe you: Irenaeus sayes, S. Peter came to Rome when Saint Matthew wrote his Euangell, in the third yeare of Cai••s, & fortie one after Christ. As for Saint Paul hee wrote not his Epistle to Rome, till the thirteenth yeare of •• Claudius, and fiftie fiue years after Christ, and himself came not to Rome till the fiftie eight yeare after Christ.

R.

What would you make of all that?

C.

Either yee must grant the Church of Rome was not con∣uerted by Saint Peter, or then there was no Church there be∣fore the fortie one yeare after our Lord, at which time Saint Peter came to it.

R.

Let it be so.

C.

Then I pray you consi∣der, that the Church of this Land, being little posterior in time to the Church of Rome, there is no reason they should beare vs downe with the sha∣dow of their Antiquitie, nor in∣sult ouer vs, as if they were a mother Church to vs, seeing it pleased God to conuert vs to the Christian faith, almost as soone as themselues, and that not by them but by others whom he sent among vs.

R.

But yee haue not made that cleare as yet.

C.

What I haue not, I shall by Gods grace. In the second yeare of Claudi••s, and fortie foure yeares after Christ, Simon Zelotes an Apostle came to Bri∣taine,

and, Preached the Gospel: This was but three yeares after Simon Peter came to Rome.

R.

How will you proue that?

C.

My proofes are; Dorothe∣us in his Synopsis: Simon Zelo∣tes peragratâ Mauritaniâ, & A∣phrorum regione, Christ••m praedi∣cauit tandem in Britannia, vbi cru∣cifixus, occïsus, & sepultus est. Doroth. Againe, Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 40. sayes that Simon Zelo∣tes hauing Preached to many Countreyes, at length Euangelij doctrinam ad occidentalem Ocea∣num insulas{que} Britannica•• perfert, and both of them are cited by your late Cardinall, writer of the Historie, Baronius.

R.

Is that all you haue for you?

C.

No: I haue more yet; for

Ioseph of Arimathea, about the yeare of our Lord fiftie three, came also to Britaine, and taught the Gospell: witnesses hereof are Balaeus, Flemingus, Capgrauus, Scropus, Polidorus Virgilius; and as many thinke, he was sent by Philip out of France ouer to Bri∣taine. Moreouer Theodoret wit∣nesseth, that the Apostle Saint Paul after his deliuerance out of Prison vnder Nero, came into Britaine, and taught the Gos∣pell. And the same also is testi∣fied by Sophronius Patriarch of Ierusalem.

R.

I remember indeede that in his Epistle to the Rom. 15.24 was then of purpose to haue come to Spaine.

C.

And you may the more easily think he came to Britaine

in like manner, seeing so famous an Author affirmes it: and you shal like it the better if you cōsi∣der the matter he hath in hand, when he makes mention of the conversion of Britaine.

R.

I pray you let me heare it.

C.

The Graecians alledged that our first propagators of the evangell were base men, not comparable for wisedome and Learning to their Law-giuers, Lycurgus, Solon, and the rest: This Father replyed that the lawes of their Law-giuers were only receiued in Graecia, but that our first Preachers of the Gos∣pell had in short time made the most famous Countries, and Kingdomes of the World to embrace it. An euident argu∣ment of a diuine power assisting

them: 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, &c. for sayes hee our Fithers, and Publicans, and that Tent maker, or Cutter of Leather (so hee calles Saint Paul) hath not only made the Romans, and these who liue vn¦der their Empire to embrace the Christian faith, but also th•• Scythians, Sauromatans, Indians, Ethiopians, Persians, Britans, Ger∣mans, and in a word hath indu∣ced all Nations, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, to receiue the Lawes of CHRIST crucified. What thinke you of this testi∣monie?

R.

Truly I am glad to heare that the Lord among other Nations hath also had mercie on this Countrie of ours, to cōmunicate to them the grace

of the Gospell.

C.

You shal yet heare more; that Aristobolus, mentioned Rom. 16. came also to this Isle, and discharged the Office of a Bishop, as witnesseth the fore∣named Dorotheus. May you not see wee are not inferiour to any Christian Countrie in this part of the World, and that we haue as many cleare witnesses of our Ancient Christian faith, as any nation of Europe hath for them?

R.

Indeede I see you haue more then I would haue belee∣ued, if their authoritie be good enough.

C.

What need you doubt of their authoritie? for if testimo∣nies of Fathers of the Primitiue Church bee good to proue the Antiquitie of any Church in

Europe, why should their au∣thoritie be called in doubt whē they speake for our Church?

R.

But we are informed that the Bishops of Rome were the first, who sent some of their Clergie to this Isle to convert it to the faith.

C.

You may see the contra∣rie, by that which I haue said al∣readie; and I will yet make it more cleare to you. The first King of the South part of the Isle that embraced the Christi∣an faith, was Lucius, in the y••are of our LORD one hundreth twentie and foure. In that same time Donald King of the North part of it became also a Chri∣stian.

R.

That is true; but Lucius required the Bishop of Rome to

send him some teachers to in∣struct him in the Christian faith and (as the Chronicle recordes) he sent into Britaine, Damianus, ••nd Fugatianus.

C.

What will you gather of that?

R.

That this Ile was conver∣ted by such teachers as the Bi∣shop of Rome sent into it.

C.

How can you say that? seeing many in the Kingdomes were conuerted before the Kings were converted, & your owne Baronius cannot denie it; these are his wordes: Cum diu a∣lioqui anie Euangelium Christi illu•• perlatum fuisset, vt testatur Gilda sapiens: that long before those men Damianus, and Fuga••ianus came here, the Gospel was here, as witnesseth Gilda the wise: Se∣ing

your owne Writers are ••or∣ced to confesse it, I maruel with what face can any man say, that the Gospell came to vs from Rome.

R.

All that you haue yet said makes something for the Church of England; nothing for the Church of Scotland.

C.

W•• inhabit both one Isle; and what good or euill specially in Religion hath come to the one, hath beene fou••d by mani∣fold experiences easily deriued to the other.

R.

But what think you; whe∣ther came the light of the Gos∣pell first to you or to them?

C.

That is a Iesuiticall Policy to diuide them whome GOD hath coupled, and to cause vs to contend together in that, wher∣in

we agree ioyntly to contend with the Church of Rome: what part of the Isle God did first il∣luminate with his light is no∣thing to the matter: If it was their glorie to haue the Sunne of righteousnesse first shining on them, wee enuie it not; this is sufficient: the Lord had a Church here in this Isle as soon as in Rome, and neither they nor wee had our faith from Rome; and if ••ou, or any for you will call in doubt the antiquitie of the Church of England, I warrant you, you shall finde a number both of Learned and Graue Diuines (where∣in they are not inferiour to any Church in Europe) to an∣swere for themselues. And if yet you craue further light

concerning the antiquity of our Church, I will shew you that which may content you if you be reasonable.

R.

Let me heare what is that.

C.

Marke me this testimonie of Tertullian who liued in the two hundreth yeare of Christ: Britannorumloca Romanismacces∣sa Christo subdita sunt. Now what part of Britaine he meanes your owne Cardinall Ba••onius will declare vnto you: for when he hath said, magnam B••itanni••e partem fuisse liberam, then hee proues it by the wall built so of∣ten by Victo••ine, by Adri••n; as hee cites ex A••lio Spartianom Adriano, and an other ce••••••tius murus built by Antonin••s Pius; as he cites out of Iulius Capitoli∣nus in Pio. By this saith he, it is

euident that Britannia was diui∣ded by a wall; that part within the w••ll was possessed by Ro∣m••ns, the other without Bri∣tanni liberè possiderunt, qui saepe muros illos egres•• Romanos praelijs provocarun••: What say ye now of these testimonies?

R.

I thinke indeede that is a great testimonie for the antiqui∣tie of your Church.

C.

So you may: for this same cause Petrus Cluniacensis vocat Scotos Antiquiores Christianos, calles Scottish men the more auncient Christians. You will make then no more contradi∣ction, but that these testimo∣nies which record the conuer∣sion of Britaine, belong both to the South and North parts of the Isle?

R.

Your former argument brought out of Tertullian, and expounded by Baronius cleares that.

C.

Yet if you please, heare what Origen sayes, who liued in the yeare of CHRIST two hundreth and sixtie; hee also witnesseth Britanniam in Chri∣stianam consentire religionem. To him we may adde Ierome, in the yeare of our Lord foure hundreth and fiue: Gallia, Bri∣tannia, Africa, Persis, oriens I••dia, & omnes barbarae Nationes vnum Christum adorant, vnam obseruant regulam veritatis.

R.

But why then by some is Palladius called Scotorum Apo∣stolus?

C.

Men may giue names as they please; but hee and Serva∣nus,

Sedulius, Nimanus and many more came, but in the fiue hun∣dreth yeare of our Lord, and may well haue beene waterers of our Church, but sure it is they were not the first planters of it.

R.

It is likely indeed to be so.

C.

But to returne. Vnder Dio∣cletian in the three hundreth yeare, great persecution was made by that Tyrant in al Chri∣stian Churches, and among the rest the Church of South Bri∣taine was also persecuted by his Deputies, for the which many fled to Crachlint King of Scots, who did louingly receiue them, and assigned to them the Isle of M••n, and erected there a Tem∣ple dedicated to Christ called o∣therwise Sodo••ēsis ecclesia, wher∣in they peaceably worshipped

Christ Iesus; and this our owne Chronicle witnesseth. After this in the dayes of Fethelmacus, which was about the ••ift yeare of the Emperour Constantius, there came into this Countrie one Regulus Albatus out of Achaia a Prouince in Graecia; but the Countrie was conuer∣ted also long before hee came: Therefore ••iergus•• King of the Pictes gaue him his Palace hee had in Fy••••e, where hee built the Church of Saint Andrew: desire you still to heare any more?

R.

Truely I am very glad to heare that we haue beene so an∣cient Christians; and yet there remaines a doubt in my heart, that the Gospell came neuer hi∣ther but out of Rome.

C.

Remember you not what

I haue prooued; seeing wee are but three yeares in Christiani∣tie behinde Rome, thinke you in so small time they did so en∣crease, that they spread out their branches to the vttermost parts of the earth? Yea, rather if you will reade the Storie, you shall finde that for three hundreth yeares (wherein are many three yeares) they were so vexed by the persecutors, that they could not get their owne Church sta∣blished; as after it was when God relented the persecution. But to come n••erer yet vnto you; whether hee was an Apo∣stle or an Apostolicke man, that first planted our Church, I will giue you two great reasons that wee haue our Faith from the Greeke or East Churches, not

frō the Latine or West Church.

R.

Nowe that is the point, and I pray you once cleare it: for I thinke if you euince that, the Church of Rome in her best estate hath beene vnto vs a sister Church, but no mother church.

C.

My first Argument is from Petrus Cluniacensis Abbas, writing to Bernard, who affirmes that for seuen or eight hundred yeares after Christ, the Scottish∣men did celebra••e the Passeouer all this time after the Grecian maner, not aster the Romane.

R.

I vnderstand not that.

C.

Then I will tell you it. Soone after the dayes of the A∣postles, there happened a con∣trouersie betweene the Chur∣ches of the East and West, a∣bout the celebration of the

Passeouer: They of the East did obserue it the fourteenth day of the Moone, that same day wherein the Iewes kept their Passeouer: They againe of the West, thinking they would haue no communion with the Iewes, did celebrate it the next Sabboth after the fourteenth day. Polïcrates, with the orien∣tall Bishops, alledged the au∣thoritie of Iohn, Philip, Policarp, yea the prescript of the Euan∣gell for their warrant. Victor, and the Bishops of the West al∣ledged for their warrant, Saint Peter, Saint Paul: Such as were more moderate, misliked to see a Schisme in the Church for so small a matter: Irenaeus iudgeth, Obseruationes ill••s esse liber••s. So∣crates, Ostendit nec Victorem, nec

Policraten iustam habuisse causam de festo Paschatis tam odiose digla∣diandi: Nam nec Seruator (inquit) nec Apostoli 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉: Seeing neither our Sauiour, nor his Apostles by a∣ny Law hath commanded the obseruation thereof.

R.

Truely it was a lamenta∣ble thing, to see so sore a renting of the Church, for so small a cause.

C.

It was indeede: and yet that in this controuersie, the Churches of Britaine obserued the manner of the Easterne Church, it is an argument they reuerenced the East Church for their mother, from whome the grace of the Gospell had come to them.

R.

It is indeede likely: If

these Churches had beene plan∣ted by Romish Doctors, they would haue also receiued the Romish ceremonies.

C.

But there is yet an other Argument: Galsrid the Cardi∣nall in his Storie of Britaine, which hee wrote in the seuen hundreth yeare, witnesseth that the Britans would not receiue Augustinus Iunior, the Legate of Gregorie the great, nor yet ac∣knowledge any primacie of the Bishop of Rome ouer them: An euident argument they estee∣med not the Romish Church to be their Mother Church. To cleare this you shall know that in the sixt hundreth yeare Gre∣gorius magnus sent into England Augustinus Iunior, to perswade the Church there to receiue the

Romish ceremonies, which to that day they had not knowne; as Altars, Images, Vestiments; Crosses, wherein albeit hee had not such speedie successe as hee would, yet at length did he ob∣taine it, and intended also to ef∣fect the like in the Church of Scotland, but was strongly resi∣sted by Daganus, and Columbanus, Qui nullam in ritibus mutationem admittere voluerunt. Againe in the seuen hundreth yeare a great schisme was in the church of Britaine: some refusing the Ceremonies of the Romish Church, keeping still their an∣cient custome; for the which they pretended the authoritie of Saint Iohn the Evangelist: O∣thers againe embracing the Ro∣mish ceremonies▪ which part

waxed the stronger, in that King Osuvius inclined to them. Al∣way the matter was debated with so hot contention, that from words it came to wepons, and twelue hundreth Church-men were slain that refused the Romish Ceremonies: this is all the good the Britaine Church got from the Popes Legate; yet the euill rested not heere, for at length in the eight hundreth yeare, by th•• perswasion of one Ecbertus, this part of the Isle was also induced to receiue the Ro∣mish Ceremonies, and thereaf∣ter their corrupt doctrine. And thus did the Bishop of Rome first obtaine superioritie ouer vs; and disgrace by his foolish inventi∣ons the glorie, and sinceritie of the Chur••h of Britaine. By all

this discourse which truely I haue made vnto you, it may be evident how vainely and with∣out a cause the defenders of the Romish Church brag of their ancient Primacie ouer all Chur∣ches, and specially how far they wrong this Isle, when they will haue Rome caled a mother to the Churches here: which vnlesse you will adde one syllable can∣not be admitted, for indeed she is a Stepmother, and in a word that Infamous Whoore of Babel, who as shee hath corrupted the Churches with her abhomina∣ble Superstitions, no maruell if shee hath at length infected vs also. That Rome is B••bel I will shew GOD willing in our next conference, where we shall yet more abūdantly see Gods good¦nesse

towardes this Isle, that as we were among the last of them who were deceiued by her in∣chantmēts, so (praised be God) we are among the first of these, whom God by the light of the Gospell hath deliuered from her bondage: And the LORD more and more open your eyes to see the truth.

R.

God grant me that grace. I will not denie you haue wake∣ned thoughts in mee which at this time I cannot vtter: And now if you prooue Rome to bee Babel, I wil thinke my selfe hap∣pie that God hath sent mee this occasion, as to call mee out of it among others of his people. But to morrow, God willing, you will (I hope) keepe your promise.

C.

If God lend mee life, and health, I will not faile.

Notes

• Cent. 2. c. 2.
• Auentinus in Annal. Boiorum.
• Sabel. En∣n••a••. 7. li. 4.
• Clem. lib. 1. Recognitio∣num
• Lib. 3. Cap. 1. & 3.
• Cen. Lib. 1. Cap. 10.
• Baron. An∣nales.
• Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. Holius.
• Adu••rsus I••daeos. cap. 7.8.
• ••aron. an∣nal. anno Christi 183 Sect. 6.
• Cen••ur. ••. cap. 2. Ce••t. 3. cap. 3.
• Hom. 4. in Ezech.
• Ad Eua∣grium.
• Holius. Pag. 87.
• Histor. Bri∣tan. lib. 8. cap. 4.
• Cent. 2. Cap. 2.
• Cent. 6. li. 5. cap. 17.