The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

¶ The inconuenience of the Seigniorie in the tyme of Christian Princes, especially in the state of this Church. Chap. 3.

Nowe that you haue spoken all that you can for your Seniors, giue me leaue a litle to declare the absurdities and inconueniences that must of necessitie follow, that kinde of gouernment.* 1.1

First, euery seuerall parish must be as it were a seuerall Church, gouerned by se∣uerall orders, & ceremonies, yea and peraduenture professe seueral points of doctrine: for there muste be equalitie among ministers, and one of them muste not haue to do with anothers parishe. The whole gouernment of the Parish must remayne in the minister and certayne Seniors, who shall haue authoritie to correct vice, abolishe ce∣remonies, appoynt orders, abregate customes, make Ecclesiasticall lawes, as they shall thinke good for that congregation. So that whatsoeuer the Pastor and his Se∣niors deuise and agrée vpon, be it good or euill, common or singular, it must be obeyed vnder the payne of Excommunication.

Secōdly, that Seigniorie being choosen by the Pastor & the parish, if the Prince or* 1.2 any other noble man be of that congregation & choosen to that office by the most parte, he must not refuse it, but attende vpō it, be at M. Pastors calling who is the chiefe of the Seigniorie, & in that respect aboue Earle, Duke, Ring, or whosoeuer: moreouer

he must be contented to be lincked & ioyned in commission, with the basest sort of the people, if it please the parish to appoynt to him suche Colleags, as it is like they will: Yea and if they be in matters of discipline and gouernment by such simple Seniors ouerruled, (as it is most like they shall) they must therewith be contented.

Thirdly, it burdeneth the parish more than they are able to beare, for wheras now* 1.3 they repine at the finding of their Pastors, then they muste be enforced besides the Pastor to nourish Deacons, and sixe or seuen Seniors with widowes also.

Fourthly, it bringeth in a new Popedome, & tyrānie into the Church, for it giueth* 1.4 to the Pastor & his fellow Seniors authoritie to exercise discipline, by Excōmunica∣tion, or otherwise against Prince, Nobles, & whosoeuer being of that congregation. So that vnlesse the Prince and Nobles be (as it were) at theyr becke, and ready at al times to accomplish their desire, they will sende out their thunderboltes of Excom∣munication agaynst them, euen as the Pope was wonte to do, after he had gotten that Iurisdiction into his hande that this Seigniorie claymeth.

Fifthly, it smelleth of Anabaptisme, as M. Gualter noteth. 1. Cor. 11 in these words,* 1.5 The Donatists of our tyme ought to consider these things more diligently, which do ouer rashly condemne whole cities and countries wherein the worde of God is preached▪ Sacra∣ments rightly administred, publike prayer celebrated, the poore sufficiently prouided for, and finally where vice is by good and holy lawes forbidden and punished. All these thinges they esteeme as nothing, except there be a certayn new Magistracie appointed, which shuld haue authoritie ouer Princes also, not only to reproue, but also to excommunicate them.

It taketh from the Prince al authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters, & it giueth vnto* 1.6 him onely potestatem facti, not Iuris, as the Papists do: for the Prince must maintaine & sée executed, such lawes, orders, & ceremonies, as y^e Pastor with his Seniors make and decrée: But in making and appointing orders & ceremonies, he may in no case meddle, as will hereafter more plainely appeare.* 1.7

It transformeth the state and gouernment of the cōmon wealth into a méere po∣pularitie, for they say in their second Admonition Pag. 55. that some muste be gouerned by all, & not all by some, whervnto if that be ioyned which T. C. so oftē repeateth, that is, the gouernment of the common wealth muste be framed to the gouernment of the churche, as the hanginges to the house, it may be easily coniectured what they shoote at.* 1.8

The deciding of matters in cōtrouersie, by this Seigniorie, will be a great occasiō of partiall & affectionate dealing: of contention and discorde, while some shall incline one way, and some another. For it cannot be vnknowne, that there are many light∣headed* 1.9 and vnconstant ministers, & that the common sorte of people are not muche better affected, so that alteratiōs in doctrine, parciall dealing in discipline, vndiscrete exhortations, and admonitions, would trouble the whole Church, & set all the lande togither by the eares.

How contēptible in the end this kinde of gouernment would be, & how litle estée∣med,* 1.10 wise men can consider. And M. Gualter well setteth out this inconuenience in these wordes: For they which cānot be brought into good order by the authoritie of a law∣full magistrate, & by lawes, much lesse will suffer thēselues to be punished, by the cōmaūde∣ment of Seniors, and of an Ecclesiasticall senate, whom with all their solemnitie they will* 1.11 laugh to scorne. On the other side, they which among the magistrates were remisse in exe∣cuting the discipline of māners, and were too fauourable, will now be glad that this burden is transferred from them to others, and will wholy neglect it. And what will the Seniors do, when these men will not meddle? surely they wilbe a laughing stocke to a great many:

Whyles Hares will prescribe to Lions a lawe, And weaklinges would keepe fierce tyrantes in awe. as the Poete recordeth.

Many also of the magistrates wil not only wincke at this, but wil laugh in their sleeues at the weake and ridiculous Domination of the new Senate. It will therfore so come to passe, that whereas before there was at the least some discipline, & sometimes some were terrified by mulctes and examples of punishments, now (that also beyng taken away) impunitie will begin to reygne, with a great and publike contempt of the sacred ministerie. Neyther do I* 1.12 speake these things vnaduisedly, for examples do teach vs that these things are done, which are so notoriously knowne to all men, that I neede not to speake any more of these thinges.

But if in this immoderate licentiousnesse, those Seniors should proceede to excōmunicate all those, which set themselues against them, it is to be feared least at the length there be a greater nūber of excōmunicated persōs, thā of those which do cōmunicate with the church. VVherfore let the Seniors tell me what they thinke meete then to be done: I suppose they will answere: it shall thē be needeful to haue the authoritie of the magistrates that he might correct those wicked men, which by their malepertnesse and rashnesse do ouerthrow the Church. I agree also to this counsayle: But if this thing ought then to be done, whē as it can scarce be vvithout publike daunger, vvhy is not the authoritie left wholy vnto the magistrate, & the whole gouernment of publike discipline cōmitted to him before the matter come to this extremitie? Hitherto Gualter.

It would bring in, too great extremitie of punishmēt: for wheras neither God nor* 1.13 mā, nor any law doth punish one mā twise for one & y^e self same fact, & it is against y^e libertie of well ordered countries, to be subiect to the punishmêt of two diuers magi∣strates: by establishing this Seigniorie, this burden muste be layde vpon the peoples neckes. For let the Magistrate punish according to the lawes as seuerely as he can, yet y^e Seigniorie will remit nothing of their censures, but procéede according to their manner, as it may be séene in the. 2. Admonition: fol. 47. And surely as M. Gualter* 1.14 sayeth speaking of this incōueniēce of the Seigniorie in the former place: It seemeth to vs altogither very daungerous, to appoint two magistrates ouer one people: neyther see we any example whereby this may be proued: and surely I willingly and freely confesse that I cannot perceyue how profitable it would be.

I omit to put you in minde how daungerous (namely in these dayes) alteratiōs of* 1.15 gouernment & chaunge of states is in established cōmon wealths: likewise how vn∣reasonable a thing it is, to enforce the ciuill Magistrate to suffer in his dominion so many seuerall kindes of gouernments, orders, ceremonies, &c. in the Church, as there be parishes. Also how vnséemely it is, to deliuer his sworde out of his owne handes & to cōmit it to the discretion of the cōmon sort & multitude in euery seuerall parish, to displace noble men, gentlemen, wise, learned, and discrete men, & cōmit the whole go∣uernment of the Church to M. Pastor & his ignorant neighbours. The absurditie & incoueniences that of necessitie must ensue of this kinde of gouernment, where there is a Christian magistrate, be infinite, & wise men may easily cōceyue the rest, by that which I haue here already spoken. Yet would I not haue any man to thinke that I condemne any churches, where this gouernment is lawfully & without daunger re∣ceyued, onely I haue regarde to whole kingdomes, especially this Realme, where it cannot but be daungerous.

Notes

• * 1.1

  1. Difference & disagrement in orders and religion.
• * 1.2

  2. Confusion of 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• * 1.3

  3. Burden and charge of pa∣rishes.
• * 1.4

  4. Tyranny.
• * 1.5

  5. It smelleth of Anabaptisme▪ Gualter.
• * 1.6

  6. Spoyling the Prince of hi〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 authoritie in cases Ecclesi∣asticall.
• * 1.7

  7. Subuersion of the state & gouernment of the common wealth.
• * 1.8

  Second Ad∣monition. Pag. 144.
• * 1.9

  8. Contention & parcialitic.
• * 1.10

  9. It will in the end be contē∣ned, & so good order neglec∣ted.
• * 1.11

  Gualter in. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. Cor. 5.
• * 1.12

  ☜
• * 1.13

  10. Double pu∣nishment for one faulte.
• * 1.14

  Gualter in 1. Cor. 5.
• * 1.15

  11. Alteration in this time daungerous, &c.