The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

¶VVhether the gouernment by Seniors ought to be perpetuall.

Chap. 2. the first Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2.

I come therefore to the seconde poynte, wherein the question especially lyeth, whiche is, whe∣ther this function be perpetuall, and ought to remayne alwayes in the Churche. And it is to be obserued by the waye, that whereas there are dyuers sorts of aduersaries to this discipline o〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 the Church, M. Doctor is amongst the worste. For there be that saye, that thys order maye be vsed or not vsed nowe, at the lybertie of the Churches: But M. Doctor sayth that thys order is not for these times, but onely for those tymes when there were no Christian Magistrates, and so dothe flatly pynche at those Churches, whiche hauing Christian Magistrates, yet notwith∣standing reteyne this order still.

Io. Whitgifte.

I say so still, and I am able to defende my saying, agaynst al that you haue shewed to the contrarie. And yet do I not pinche at any Church that vseth it (if there be any such) so that they haue the consent of the ciuill Magistrate, who may if he will depart from his right, & abridge himself of the authoritie cōmitted vnto him by God. But he néede not so do except he list: and whether it be wel done or no, I will not determine: this I am well assured of, that in a Monarchie, & in a kingdome such as this Realme of England is, it can not be practised, without vntollerable contention, & extreme confu∣sion: except you could deuise to make euery seueral parish a kingdome within it selfe,

and exempt it from all ecclestastical & ciuill iurisdiction, of Prince, Prelate, & whom∣soeuer? which vndoubtedly may séeme to be your séeking, as will appeare hereafter.

Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. vlt. & Pag. 140. Sect. 1.

And to the ende that the vanitie of this distinction, which is, that there ought to be Seniors or Auncients in the times of persecution, & not of peace: vnder tyrants, & not vnder christian Magi∣strates may appeare: the cause why these Seniors or auncients were appoynted in the Church; is to be considered, which must needes be graunted to be, for that the Pastor not beeing able to ouersee al himself, & to haue his eyes in euery corner of the church, & places where y^e Churches abode, might be helped of the Auncients. Wherin the wonderful loue of God towardes his churche doth mani∣festly appeare, that for the greater assurance of the saluation of his, did not content himselfe to ap∣poynt one onely ourseer of euery churche, but many ouer euery churche.

And therefore seeing that the Pastor is nowe in the tyme of peace, and vnder a christian Ma∣gistrate not able to ouersee al himselfe, nor his eyes can not be in euery place of the parish present to beholde the behauiour of the people, it followeth that as well nowe as in the tyme of persecution, as wel vnder a christian Prince, as vnder a tyrant, the office of an Auncient or Senior is required. Onlesse you will say that God hath lesse care of his church, in the time of peace, and vnder a godly magistrate, than he hath in the time of persecution, and vnder a tyrante.

Io. Whitgifte.

I say there may be Seniors in the time of persecution, when there is no christian Magistrate, not that there ought of necessitie to be. God hath prouided the ciuill Magi∣strate, and other gonernours, to punishe and to correct vice and other disorders in the Church: who hath his officers and deputies in euery place for that purpose, neyther may the Pastor, or any other, to whome that charge is not committed by the ciuill magistrate, vsurpe that office vnto them selues. Wherefore that cause by you allea∣ged, is no cause at all why there should be any suche Seniors, where there are chri∣stian Magistrates, neyther is that kinde of gouernment any parte of the Pastors charge.

The Pastor if he be a méete man, is able to 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉o al that, that is required of a Pastor, else might it be sayd (which you before denied) that God appoynted offices & functiōs, and gaue not sufficient gifts to execute & do them. Neyther can it be sayd, that God hath 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉esse care of his Church, when he placeth ciuill and Christian Magistrates in the stead of Seniors, than when he placeth Seniors, and leaueth it destitute of Christian Ma∣strates. For one of the most 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ingular benefites that God bestoweth on his Churche in this worlde is, that he giueth vnto it christian Kings & Princes, from whose office and authoritie, whosoeuer doth detract and withdrawe we any thing, iniurieth the ordi∣nance of God, and sheweth him selfe vnthankfull for so great a benefite.

Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 140. Sect. 1.

In deede if so be the Auncientes in the time of persecution, & vnder a tyrant, had medled with any office of a magistrate, or had supplied the roome of a godly magistrate, in handling of any of those things whych belonged vnto him, then there had bene some cause why a godly magistrate beeing i〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 the churche, the office of the Senior, or at the least so muche as he exercised of the office of a magi∣strate, should haue ceased. But when as the auncient neyther dyd, nor by any maner might meddle with those things which belonged vnto a magistrate, no more vnder a tyrante, than vnder a godly magistrate, there is no reason why the magistrate entring into the churche, the elder shoulde be therefore thrust out. (*) For the Elders office was to admonish seuerally, those that did amisse, to comforte those which he sawe weake and shaking, and to haue neede of comforte, to assist the Pa∣stor in ecclesiasticall censures of reprehensions, sharper or mylder, as the faultes required, also to assiste in the suspentions from the supper of the Lorde, vntill some triall were had of the repentance of that partie which had confessed him self to haue offended, or else if he remayned stubborne, to assist him in the excommunication. These were those things which the Elder dyd, which for so muche as they may do as well vnder a christian magistrate, as vnder a tyrant, as well in the time of peace, as in the time of persecution, it followeth that as touching the office of Elders, there is no distinctiō in the times of peace and persecution, of a christian Prince, and of a tyrant.

Io. Whitgifte.

I would gladly know by what place of scripture you can i〈1 line〉〈1 line〉stifie this office that you héere appoynt vnto Seniors. In so weightie a matter in my iudgement you shoulde haue done well to haue vsed some authoritie of scripture, or other auncient wryter. The Admonition sayth, that the office of Seniors was to gouerne the Church with the rest of the ministers, to consult, to admo〈1 line〉〈1 line〉sh, to correct, & to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation: Which if it be true, I pray you what authoritie remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall and Churche matters? In d〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ede if you make such a distinction betwixt the Church & the cōmon wealth, the ci〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ill Magistrate & the eccle∣siasticall, as you do throughout your whole booke, it is no mar〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ell though you thinke the office of Seniors to be perpetuall. For you giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall gouernment, thā you would do to the Turke, if you were vnder him. And therfore according to your platforme, the gouernment of the Church is all one vnder a christian Magistrate, and vnder the great Turke. But to l〈1 line〉〈1 line〉aue the Admonition: what haue you spoken of the office of Seniors, which is not eyther pro∣per to the Pastor, or cōmon to all Christians, or such as may be much better brought to passe, by the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate, than by the ignorance, simplicitie, and rudenesse of the most of your Seniors? But first let vs heare more of your 〈◊〉〈◊〉 before we come to vtter the absurditie of your cause.

Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 140. in the midst.

But I will yet come nearer. That without the which the principall offices of charitie cannot be exercised, is necessarie and alwayes to be kept in the Churche: but the office of Auncients & El∣ders are such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised, therfore it follo∣weth that this office is necessarie. That the principal offices of charitie cannot be exercised without this order of Auncients, it may appeare, for that he which hath faulted, and amēdeth not after he be admonished once pri〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ately, and then before one witnesse or two, cānot further be proceeded against, according to the commaundement of our sauiour Christ, onlesse there be in the Church Auncients 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉d Elders, therfore this principal office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of him which hath not pr̄ofited by those two former admonitions, can not be exercised without them. For it is commaunded of our sauiour Christ, that in such a case when a brother doth not proffite by these two warnings, it should be tolde the Church. Now I would aske who be ment by the Church heere, if he say by the Church, are ment al y^e people, then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayn〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 to all the whole congregation, or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of this matter. I do not denie but the people haue an interest in the excommunication, as shal be noted hereafter, bu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 the matter is not so farre come, for he must first refuse to obey the admonition of the Church, or euer they can proceede so farre. Wel, if it be not the people that be ment by the Church. who is it? I heare M. Doctor say it is the Pastor, but if he will say so, & speake so straungely, he must warrant it with some other places of scripture, where the Church is takē for one, which is as much to say as one man is many, one member is a body, one alone is a companie. And besides this strangenesse of speech, it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ, and destroyeth the soueraintie of the medicine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festred sore, as would ney∣ther be healed with priu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉te admonition, neyther w^t admonition before one or two witnesses. For as y^e fault groweth, so our sauior Christ would haue the nūber of those, before whō he shuld be checked & rebuked likewise grow. Therfore from a priuate admonition he riseth vnto the admonitian be∣fore two or three, & from thē to the church, which if we should say it is but one, then to a dangerou∣ser wound should be layd an easier plaster, & therfore our sauiour doth not rise from two to one (for that were not to rise, but to fall, nor to proceede, but to go backwarde) but to many. Seeing then that the church here is neyther the whole congregation, nor the pastor alone, it followeth that by the churche here he meaneth the pastor, with the Auncients or Elders. Or else whom can he meane? And as for this maner of speech wherin by the church is vnderstanded the chiefe gouernours and Elders of the church, it is oftentimes vsed in the olde Testament, from the which our sauiour bor∣rowed this maner of speaking, as in Exodus it is sayd, that Moses wrought his miracles before y^e people, when mention is made before, onely of the Elders of the people, whome Moses had called togither. And most manifestly in Iosue, where it is sayd that he that killed a man at vnwates, shall returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregation to be iudged. Where by the congrega∣tion, he meaneth the gouernours of the congregation, for it did not appertayne to all to iudge of this case. Likewise in the Cronicles, and diuers other places. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉nd therefore I conclude, that for so muche as those be necessarie and perpetuall which are spoken of in those words (tell the Churche) and that vnder those words are comprehended the Elders or Auncients, that the Elders & aun∣cients be necessarie and perpetuall officers in the churche.

Io. Whitgifte.

Héere are many words without matter, & a great thing pretended to no purpose: for the principal offices of charitie, both hath bin & may be wel exercised without your Se∣niors: the place Mat. 18. doth in no respect proue the contrarie. For it only teacheth an order howe to procéede charitably in priuate offences, & not in publike, as I haue she∣wed before. Moreouer to tel the Church, is eyther publikly to reproue those that haue bin priuately in that maner admonished, & wil not repent, or else to complayne vnto such as haue authoritie in the Churche, according to that which I sayde before of this place, in my Answere to y^e Admonition. And héerein you ioyne with me, in that you take the Church there, for the chief gouernours of the Church, though we differ in y^e persōs. For you will haue it onely ment of the Pastor & Seniors, and I thinke it signifieth more generally any, which are lawfully appoynted to gouerne the church. But whe∣ther it be one or more that hath this authoritie committed vnto him, it is more to tell him than it is to tell twentie besides: because he béeing in authoritie, doth beare the office of a publike Magistrate, who hath power publikely to correct that whiche was priuately cōmitted: and therfore he that telleth one suche, may wel be sayd to tell the Church, bicause he telleth such a one as hath authoritie in the Church, and is a pub∣like person. So that he riseth from priuate admonition to open complaint: from pri∣uate witnesses, to a publike Magistrate: and therfore this is to rise, not to fal, to procede, not to goe backwarde.

But admit that mo than one is vnderstanded by the name of the Church (whiche I also confesse) yet doth it not followe, that it shoulde be your Seigniorie, whych you would haue in euery congregation to consiste of the Pastor, and some other of his parishe, but rather suche as Chrysostome calleth Prelates and Presidents, which are Bi∣shops & such other chiefe gouernours. But be it that this place admitted y^e same sense, that you would haue it to do, yet do I answer you as M. Musculus answered y^e Papists obiecting these words in effect to the same ende that you do, that is, to spoyle the Chri∣stian Magistrate of his authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters. Obijciunt illud Christi, dic ecclesiae: Et, si ecclesiam non audierit, sit tibi velut Ethnicus & Publicanus. Respondeo, Ecclesiae dei tum Magistratu pio ac fideli d〈1 line〉〈1 line〉stituebantur. &c. They obiect (sayth he) that place of Christ, Dic ecclesiae: tell the Churche: and if he heare not the Church, let him be to thee as an hea∣then and publicane. I answere, The Churches of God were then destitut〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 of a godly and faythful Magistrate: wherfore the iudgements betweene brethren & brethren were exer∣cised by Seniors in an ecclesiastical assembly, as it was also vsual in christian Churches plāted by the Apostles. But there is a far diuers cōdition of those Churches which by the benefite of God haue obteyned Princes and christian Magistrates, who haue the chieftie, power, the making of lawes, and gouernment, not only in profane matters, but also in diuine. But that is a most pestilent errour, whereby diuers men thinke no otherwise of the christian Magi∣strate, than of a profane gouernment, whose authoritie is to be acknowledged onely in pro∣fane matters. And surely you do not one iote in this poynt differ from the opinion of the Papists. Truthe it is, that the place of Matthew may be vnderstanded of Seni∣ors: but it may as well be vnderstanded of any other that by the order of the church haue authoritie in the Church. And séeing that it admitteth diuers interpretations (as it dothe) there can no suche platforme of necessitie be grounded vpon it.

Moreouer when Christe sayde, Dic Ecclesiae, there was no christian Churche esta∣blis〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ed, but he speaketh according to the state of the Iewes Churche that then was vnder the Heathenish Magistrates: as he also doth when he saythe: If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee &c. leaue thine offering before the alter. &c. And to this doth M. Caluin agrée in his Harmonie expoūding y^e same place. And surely as of this place you may not conclude, that in the Churche of Christ there ought to be suche offerings and alters, so may you not on the other place conclude, that there ought alwayes to be Seniors. Naye muche lesse this, than the other: for this is doubtfull, and the other is playne.

Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 141. Lin. 11. & Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4.

Furthermore S. Paule hauing entreated throughout y^e whole first epistle to Timothie, of y^e or∣ders which ought to be in y^e church of God, & of the gouernmēt, as himselfe witnesseth in the 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉hird chapter of that Epistle, when he saith he wrote that Epistle to teach Timothie how he should be∣haue himselfe in the house of God) and hauing set foorth both Byshop, & Elder, and Deacons, as ministers and officers of the Church, in the shutting vp of his Epistle he for the obseruation of all the orders of that Epistle, adiureth Timothie, & with the inuocation of the name of God straight∣ly chargeth him to obserue those things which he had prescribed in that epistle, I charge thee saith he) before God which quickn〈1 line〉〈1 line〉th all things, and before Iesus Christ which witnessed vnder Pon∣tius Pilate a good profession, that thou keepe this commaundement without spot or blemish, vntil the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ. The weight of which sentence for the obseruing of those things which are mentioned in this epistle, that it may be the better vnderstanded, I will note the words seuerally.

First therfore it is to be noted, that he saith (I denounceor I charge) he doth not say (I ex∣hort or giue counsell) leauing it to the libertie of Timothie.

Secondarily it is to be noted, that he calleth (*) the whole Epistle a commaundemēt, and ther∣fore it is no permission, so that it may be lawfull for the churches to leaue it, or to keepe it.

Thirdly, when he maketh mention of 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e liuing God, & of Christ which witnessed a good pro∣fession vnder Pontius Pilate, he sheweth that the things conteyned in this Epistl are such, as for the maintenance thereof we ought not to doubt to giue our liues, and that they be not suche as we ought to keepe, so that we haue them without strife & without sweate, or easely, but such as for the keeping of them, if we haue them, and for the obteyning of them if we haue them not, I will not say 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ur honours, or our commodi〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ies and wealth, but as I haue sayd, our liues oughte not to be deare vnto vs. For therefore doth he make mention of the confession of Christ vnto death that he might shew vs an example, and foorthwith speaketh of God, whiche rayseth from the dead, that by thys meanes he might comfort Timothie if he should be brought into any trouble for the de〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ense of any of these things.

Fourthly, if we referre those words without spot or blemish vnto the commaundement (as I for my part thinke they ought to be) then there is a waight in these wordes not to be passed ouer, whiche is, that the Apostle will not only haue the rules here conteyned, not troden vnder the feete, or broken in peeces, but he will not haue them so much as in any one smal point or specke neglected. But I see how M. Doctor will wipe away all this, and say that these thinges, or some of them were to be obserued thus necessaryly and precisely vntill there were christian princes and peace in the church, but the print is deeper than that it wil be so washed away, and therfore it is to be obser∣ued, what he sayth in the latter end of the sentence, where he chargeth Timothie, and in him al, that he should keepe all these things, not vntill the time of peace, or to the times of christian princes, but euen vntil the comming or appearing of our sauioure Christ, which is as long as the world lasteth. And therefore I conclude that the Seigniors or Elders of the Church (being a part of that order and gouernment of the Churche, which S. Paule appointeth in this Epistle) are necessary, perpe∣tuall, and by no meanes to be chaunged.

Io. Whitgifte.

Al this is but to blind y^e eies of the Reader, being indéede without all pith & gr〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ūd. For first wher hath the Apostle in al that Epistle spokē one word of the office of your Seniors, which you distinguish frō a minister of y^e word? wher doth he giue any such cōmandemēt cōcerning his office? Wher doth he prescribe any such for me or kind of gouernmēt? if he kéepe silēce in this matter thr〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ugh y^e whole epistle, how dare you presume to say that to be cōmanded which is not mentioned, & to make so much adoe about nothing? surely if this kind of gouernmēt had bin so necessary, & for euer to be 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉bserued, S. Paule wold not haue omitted it in this Epistle especially. You say that he hath set foorth, in that Epistle the office of an elder: if by an elder you meane a Bishop or a Pastor, it is true. If you meane your own elder, such as must gouern only & nei∣ther preach nor minister the sacramēts, it is very vntrue: and you haue no cōscience in speaking vntruth: for he speaketh not one word of that senior or of his office. If you reply or obiect that which is written. 1. Tim. 5. qui bene praesunt 〈◊〉〈◊〉. &c. I answer as I did before, that by presbyter in that place he meaneth such as be in the ministerie, and no other. If he do meane any other, yet doth he not describe the office of that Se∣nior, neither giueth any precept of his continuāce, or rule of any such kind of 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣mēnt: & therfore cannot be included in that precept which you so greatly amplify: for the wordes of the Apostle be these, vt serues hoc praeceptum, so that you haue laboured much to proue a thing that is not, and therefore you haue laboured in vaine. Se∣condly, you cannot extend these words of the Apostle to the whole Epistle, as though it were gyuen generally of the whole, and of euery thing therein contein〈1 line〉〈1 line〉d: for then muste you of necessitie bring in widdowes and their office into the Churche

again: bicause the Apostle doth not only describe their office in that epistle, but also giueth direct precepts of them, & so doth he not of your Seniors. Likewyse his pre∣cepte of drinking wine, whiche he giueth there also, must of necessitie be obserued of all ministers, whiche haue the lyke infirmitie. These and suche other grosse absurdities must of necessitie followe, if you will haue all things in that Epistle ne∣cessarily for euer to be obserued, and the whole epistle to be that commaundement, that the Apostle here enioyneth to Timothie. cap. 6.

Neyther can I perceiue that any learned interpreter doth referre this comman∣dement to any other things conteined in this Epistle, than to those only that do ap∣pertaine to the pastorall office of Timothie: and some there be, that restrayne it to those things onely which are before spoken of in this. 6. chapter, & especially to y^e pre∣cept against couetousnes. Chrysostome expounding this place sayth thus: VVhat is it to kepe the cōmaundement pure? Vt ne{que} vitae, ne{que} dogmatū gratia aliquid maculae contra〈1 line〉〈1 line〉as, That neither in respect of lyfe or doctrine thou haue any spot. To conclude M. Caluin in∣terpreting it, sayth on this sort: By this word cōmaundement, he signifieth those thinges which he had hitherto spokē of the office of Timothie: wherof this is the sum, that he shuld shew himself a faithful minister to Christ & to the church. For what need is there to extēd this to the whole law? except peraduenture some m〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 had rather to take this simplye for the function cōmitted vnto him: for whē we are appointed ministers of the churche, God doth therwith prescribe vnto vs what he would haue vs to do. So that seruare mandatum, to keepe the comaundement is nothing else, but faithfully to execute the office cōmitted vnto him: surely I do wholly refer it to the ministerie of Timothie. Wherby it is euidēt, that vnder this cōmaūdement euery thing in this epistle is not conteined, but y^t only which doth appertain to y^e office of Timothie. That which foloweth (immaculatus & irreprehensibi∣lis) according to the most and best interpreters, is referred to Timothie, & not to the cōmaundement, cōtrarie to your iudgement: wherfore I also conclude, that nothing in this Epistle maketh one iote for your Seigniorie.

Chap. 2. the sixthe Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 141. Sect vlt.

So that we haue not only now the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of al y^e primi〈1 line〉〈1 line〉iue churches (which ought to moue vs if there were no cōmaundement) but we haue also a straight cōmandement, I say the only exāples ought to moue vs, for what way can we s〈1 line〉〈1 line〉felyer follow thā y^e cōmon high way, beaten & trodē by 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 steps of al y^e Apostles, & of al the churches? Things also grounded, & being preserued by the same meanes by the which they were ingendred, why should we think but y^t the churches now wil pro∣sper by y^e gouernment, wherby it first came vp? But I say we haue not only the examples of the churches, but we haue also commandement & straight charge to kepe this office of elders and aun∣cients in the church, & therfore it is not only rashnesse in leauing the way that the aposties, & chur∣ches by the apostles aduise haue gone, but disobedience also to depart from their commaundement, & to mainteyn & defend that we may do so, I can almost giue it no gentler name than rebellion.

Io. Whitgifte.

Examples of churches ther may be some, but not of your kind of Seniors. Precept & cōmaundemēt for this kind of gouernmēt, there is not one in y^e whole scripture, or any other approued authoritie. For I haue before shewed how little y^• authoritie ser∣ue〈1 line〉〈1 line〉h your purpose, y^• which you would haue vs thinke to be so expresse a cōmaunde∣ment. Wherfore it is no rebellion to disallow of your order in the tyme of Christian magistrates, but it is rebellion to contend for it, to the abridging of that authoritie that God hath to Christian Princes committed.

Chap. 2. the seuenth Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. &c.

I know y^t in the primitiue church they had in euery church certain Seniors, to whome the gouernmente of the congregation was committed, but that was before there was any Christian Prince or magistrate that openly professed the Gospell, and before there was anye Churche by publike authoritie established, or vnder Ciuill

gouernment: I told you before, that the diuersitie of tyme and state of the church requireth diuersitie of gouernment in the same. It can not be gouerned in time of prosperitie, as it is in time of persecution: It may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince, which doth nou∣rishe and maynteyne it, as it may be vnder a Tyrant, when it is con∣strained to 〈◊〉〈◊〉 and seeke corners. It can not be gouerned in a w〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ole realme, as it may be in one little citie or towne: it cannot be gouer∣ned when it is dispersed through many places, as it may be when it is collected into some one narow and certaine place: To be shorte, it can not be gouerned when it is ful of hypocrites, Papists, Atheis〈1 line〉〈1 line〉s, and other wicked persons, as when it hath verie fewe or none such: as cōmonly it hath not in tyme of persecution, when the gold is as it were by fyre tried from the drosse. He that according to this diuer∣sitie of the forme, state, & time of the church, doth not allow a diuersi∣tie of gouernment, doth confound and not edifie. I praye you what Seniors could you haue in most parishes in England fit for that of∣fice? But wise, not wilful men, haue to consider this: God hath giuē the chief gouernment of his church, to the christian magistrate, who hath to consider what is most conuenient: and we must therwith be content, so that nothing be done against faithe, and the commaunde∣ment of God.

TC. Pag. 142. Sect. 1.

Nowe I will come to M. Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth & fourteene, and a hundred and fiftene pages, where he graunteth that there were elders in euery Churche in times past, but saith that it ought not now so to be. For saith he, the times alter the gouernment, and it cannot be gouerned in the time of prosperitie, as in the time of persecution, vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant. Thus he sayth, but sheweth no reason, bringeth no proofe, declareth not how〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 nor why prosperitie will not beare the elders, as well as persecution, neyther why they may not be vnder a godlie prince as well as vnder a tyrant, v〈1 line〉〈1 line〉lesse this be a reason, that bycause the godlye prince doth nourish the church as a ciuile Magistrate, therfore the Auncients may not nourishe it as ecclesiasticall ouerseers

Io. Whitgifte.

My reason why it may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince, as it maye vnder a tyrant, is this: God hath giuen the chiefe authoritie in the gouernmente of his church to the Christian magistrate, which could not so be if your Seignorie might as wel retein their authoritie vnder a Christian Prince, and in the time of peace, as vnder a tyrant, and in the tyme of persecution. For tell me I pray you what au∣thoritie ecclesiasticall remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate, where this Seignorie is established? But that the Reader may vnderstande this not to be my iudgement a∣lone, but the iudgement also of famous learned men, & the practise of w〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ll reformed churches. I thought good in this place before I proceed any further, to report the opi∣nions of Musculus and Gualter, touchyng this matter. Musculus in his common pla∣ces, titulo de Magistratibus, affirmeth, that notwithstanding in the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 tyme, the churches were ruled by Seniors, yet they may not so be vnder christian rulers and Magistrates, who haue authoritie not in ciuill matters only, but in ecclesiastical al∣so. His wordes I haue recited before. M. Gualter in his cōmentaries vpon. 1. Cor. 5. doth at large entreat of this matter: whose wordes bicause they haue pith in them, and proceede from him which is both learned and godlie, and of great experience, I will reher〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e them as I finde them.

There are also others which although they haue true christian princes, and want no la∣wes wherby licentious maners are corrected, yet they say they nede an ecclesiastical senate, which might punish euery man, and haue authoritie also ouer Princes, that it might seclude them fr〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 the Lords supper (if they haue giuē any publike offence) & not to admitte them againe vnto the felowship of the Church, but vpon their allowāce after publike satisfactiō.

And if any man do contrary them in their opinion, by and by they crie out vpon him as the enemie of all discipline, & as one vnwoorthy to haue any place in the Church: as though there could no other forme of discipline be appointed, but that whiche they haue inuented. But they must pardone vs, and let them not condemne vs rashly, which do dissent from them not without good reason. You sée therefore how your Seigniorie and kinde of gouernmente is liked, euen of zelous and godly ministers of reformed churches. Neyther do I remember that I euer read any authoure that dothe of ne∣cessitie require it: scripture (I know) you haue none for it.

Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 142 Sect. 2.

Nowe seing M. Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now, as in the time of the Apostles, as well vnder a Christian prince 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉s vnder a Tyrant, I will shewe him that al∣though they be always necessary, yet there is better cause why they should rather be now, than in the Apostles times, greater necessitie vnder a Christian prince, than vnder a tyrant. First of all in the Apostles times it is knowne that the gifts of the spirit of wisedome, discretion, knowledge, en∣during of trauayle, were poured foorth more plentifully, then euer they were eyther before, or shall be after. By reason whereof, the Pastors and ministers of the churches that were then, were (I speake generally, and of the estate of the whole Church) better furnished with the gifts needefull for their ministerie, than are the ministers of these days. Whervpon I conclude that if the ayd and assistance of the Pastor, by the Elders, was thoughte necessary by the Apostles in those times, when the ministers were so wel, and so richly replenished with such gifts, much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the ministers of these days, wherein their gifts of discretion, & knowledge, and diligence are not so plentifull. For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue, whose hands so nimble to execute, had neede for their ayde, of other eyes and other handes, then the mini∣sters now, whose eyes are dimmer, and hands heauier than theirs were, haue much more neede of this ayde than they had.

Io. Whitgifte.

This reason is answered two ways, and that briefly: The first is, bycause there is not at this time in euery congregation so méete men, for that office of Seniors, as there was then: for God hath not now so plentifully poured the giftes of the spirit of wise∣dome, discretion, knowledge. &c. vpon so many in euery congregation according to your owne confession, as he did then: and therefore nothing so easie to fiad in euery con∣gregation meete men to gouerne▪ a〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 it was then. Secondly, the ciuill and Christian Magistrate hath that whole authoritts now, that Seniors had thē, and much more, for he may punish with corporall punishment, and so could not they: he may compell and coustrayne, and so could not they: so that the Pastor may be much better ayded and assisted in doing his dutie, and in suppressing vice by the authoritie of the Chri∣stian Magistrate, than he eyther was then or could be now by the Seniors. There∣fore this reason of yours is no reason at all, but maketh directly against you, if it be well considered.

Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 142. Sect. 3. 4.

Againe if S. Paule did charge the persecuted, and therefore poore churches, with the finding and prouiding for the Seniors in euery Church (as it appeareth in y^t Epistle to Timothie, where he sayth that Elders which rule well, are woorthy double honoure, whereby he signifieth a plenti∣full reward, and such as may be fully sufficient for them and their housholds, as when he biddeth that the widdow which serued the Church in attending vpon the sicke, and vppon the strangers, should be honoured, that is, haue that wherewith she might honestly and soberly liue) if I say S. Paule would charge the churches then with mainteyning the Elders, whiche being poore, were not sometimes able to liue without some releefe from the Churche, bycause they were compelled oftentimes to leaue their owne affayres to wait of the affaires of the Church, howe much more ought there now to be Seniors, when the churches be in peace, and therefore not so poore, & when there may be chosen such for the most part throughout the real〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e, as are able to liue without char∣ging the Church any whit, as the practise of these days doth manifestly declare.

And if S. Paule that was so desirous to haue the Gospel 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, that is free and with∣out charges as muche as is possible, and soloth to lay any burthen vpon the churches, especially those whiche were poore, did notwithstanding enioyne the maintenance of the Elders, vnto the churches poore and persecuted, how much more shall we thinke, that his mind was that the chur∣ches which liue in peace, and are rich, and may haue this office without charge, ought to receiue this order of auncients.

Io. Whitgifte.

This is a poore and féeble reason: the Churche founde Seniors in the time of persecution, Ergo, there ought rather to be Seniors vnder a Christian prince than in the time of persecution. Or this: the Church is now better able to finde Se∣niors, Ergo, it ought now rather to be gouerned by Seniors. You may make the same reasons also for wydowes and diaconisses, and as well induce the necessitie of them. But we aske not what the Church was able to do then, or what it is able to do now, but whether the same gouernment ought to be now that was then: and whe∣ther a Christian magistrate haue no more authoritie in the gouernmēt of y^e Church now, than the heathenish and persecuting magistrate had then. Although if you con∣sider the abilitie of some Parishes, and the vnwillingnesse of other some, you shall find that they be hardly able or willing to finde a fit Pastor, muche lesse would they be able or willing to fynde a number of Seniors besydes their Pastor.

The place of S. Paule 1. Tim. 5. is vntruly alledged for your purpose, for the Apo∣stle meaneth of the Minister in euery congregation, and not of any number of Seni∣ors, as I haue before declared. Neither haue yon one place of Scripture to warrant your interpretation, or application of that place.

God hath much better prouided for his church, by placing in it ciuill and Christiā magistrats, whose authoritie is so ample & large, than by placing Seniors: wherfore where Christian magistrates be, the gouernment of Seniors is superfluous, and the Church may not be burdened with vnnecessarie and vnprofitable charges: neyther may the authoritie which God hath giuen to the Christian magistrate, be writhen out of his hand, by a rude companie of Seniors in seuerall parishes.

Chap. 2. the tenth Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 142. the laste lyne. &c.

Moreouer those that belearned knowe, that the gouernment of the Churche which was in the Apostles times, being partly in respect of the people that had to do in the elections & other things popular: partly in respect of the Pastors and Auncients Aristocratical, that is the rule of the best: I say they know that these gouernmentes doe easyly decline into their contraries, and by reason therof both the gouernment of those which were most vertuous might easily be changed into the gouernment of few of the richest, or of greatest power, and the popular estate might easily passe to a confused tumult. Now this incōmoditie were they more subiect vnto vnder a tyrant, than vnder a godlie prince. For they had no ciuile magistrate, which might correct and reforme those declinings when they happened. For the tyrants did not know of it, and if they hav knowne of it, they would haue bene glad to see the churches goe to wracke: therfore now we haue a godlie ciuil magistrate which both will and oughte to remedie suche declinations and conuersions of good gouernment into euill, it followeth that this estate and gouernment by Auncients, is rather to be vsed vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant.

Io. Whitgifte.

Those that be learned know, that the gouernment of the church is neither populare, nor Aristocratical▪ (as it is before declared where you haue affirmed the lyke) but a Mo∣narchie. For in euery particular church where there is a christian Magistrate, he is chiefe and principall ouer the rest: and you your selfe confesse, that the Pastor is the chiefe of the Seigniorie, whiche ought not to be if the state were eyther Popular, or Aristocraticall. Of the vniuersall churche onely Christ is the head and chief, and ther∣fore the state of it is Monarchicall. But of the state and kinde of gouernmente of the church in euery kingdome or prouince, I haue particularly, and at large spo∣ken in the treatise of Archbishops.

I shal not néed to will the Reader once againe to marke how you bend your force against a Monarchie. For your principle is, that the gouernment of the common wealthe must be framed according to the gouernment of the churche: And therfore it maye not be a kingdome, but rather a Popular estate, or Aristocraticall, bicause the gouernment of the Churche (as you say) is so. But be it as you woulde haue it: what then? Forsooth it maye easylyer decline from a popular estate to a confused tumulte, and from an A∣ristocratical state to the gouernmente of a fewe, when there is no Christian Magistrate, than when there is a Christian magistrate, therefore it is more meete for the gouernmente of the Churche, to be populare or Aristocraticall vnder a Christian Magistrate, than vnder a tyrant.

Fyrste, I deny your argument as béeing voyde of all sense and reason. Secondly, I saye that no Christian Magistrate is bound to suffer in his dominion, so manie seue∣ral and distinct kindes of gouernment: and to haue one kinde of gouernment in the Churche, and an other in the common wealth, seing that God hath committed the chief care of them both to one and the self same person. Thirdly, I denie your antece∣dent: that is, that a popular or Aristocraticall qinde of gouernyng the churche doth more easyly decline into their contaries vnder a tyrant than vnder a Christian magistrate: for men being in persecution, and in dayly expectation of death, are not so desirous to procure vnto themselues authoritie & dominion, as they be in the time of peace and prosperitie, Moreouer vnder a tyrant and in the tyme of persecution, those that be appoynted gouernours of the Church, be but for a time only, and during the pleasure of such as appointed them, and therefore can not vsurpe any vnlawfull iurisdiction ouer the rest against their willes. In such times of the Church rather disobedience and stub∣bornesse in the common sort, than tyrannie or oppression in the gouernours, is to be feared. Surely you would fayne haue reason for your popular cause, if you could tell where to fynde it.

And lette the Reader note the myght of this your reason: the popular and Ari∣stocratical kind of gouernment may more easyly decline to their contraries vnder a tyrant than vnder a Christian magistrate: therfore y^e gouernmēt of the church must be popular or Aristocratical rather vnder a Christian magistrate, thā vnder a tyrant. Nowsoeuer the antecedent is true, there is no sequele in the argument. For vnder a tyrant necessitie doth driue the Church oftentymes to one of these two kindes of go∣uernment, but when there is a Christian Magistrate, God hath appointed it to bée subiect to him.

Chap. 2. the eleuenth Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 1.

Besides this, in the time of persecution all assemblies of diuers together were dangerous, & put them all in hazard of their life which did make those assemblies, & therfore if the pastor alone might haue ordred and determined of things perteining to the church by himself, it had ben lesse danger to him, & more saftie for others of the churche. And therfore if the seniors were then thoughte meere to gouern the church, when they could not come together to exercise their functions without daunger, muche more ought they to be vnder a Christiā prince, when they may mete together without dan∣ger.

Io. Whitgifte.

These be the homeliest reasons that euer I hearde, & the lightest to be vsed in so waightie a matter. For first, the Seniors might as safely méet together in the tyme of persecution, to exercise discipline, as the whole church to heare the word of God & to pray. Secondly, it was not so daungerous for foure or fiue to méet together. Third∣ly, no daunger ought to be feared when a man séeketh to do his dutie. Fourthly, what kind of reason cal you this? the Seniors may with lesse daūger méet together to exe∣cute their fuuctions vnder a Christian Prince than vnder a tyrant: therfore there ought rather to be Seniors vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant. I statly de∣nie the argument. For vnder a tyrant the churche must haue that kinde of gouern∣ment, that it may most conueniently enioy, with what daunger so euer it be ioyned: vnder a Christian Magistrate it must be subiecte to his authoritie, and gouerned by him, seing that God hath cōmmitted vnto him the chief care & gouernment therof: Wherfore the office of Seniors is nothing necessarie where ther is a Christian ma∣gistrate, but it is vsurpation rather of the office of the Magistrate, and a detracting from his authoritie: neyther hathe God in any place of the Scriptures commaun∣ded obedience to those your Seniors, or described their office: but he hath done both expressely, touching the ciuill Magistrate.

Chap. 2. the. 12. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 2.

M. Doctor procedeth and sayth, it can not be gouerned in a whole realme, as it may be in a citie

or towne. This gouernment by Seniors is not only in one citie, but also hath bin of late through∣out the whole realme of Fraunce, where there were any churches: and M. Doctor confesseth, that it was in all the prinutiue Churches, and therfore not onely in one realme, but almost tho∣roughout the whole worlde: and therfore the large spreading of the Churche, can not hynder it. So that the difference lyeth stil in the peace aud persecution of the churche, and not in the capa∣citie and largenesse of the place where the churches abyde. So myghte one reason agaynste the lawfull estate of a Monarchie: for he might say that although the rule of one be needful and conue∣ment in a houshold, yet it is not conuenient in a towne, and although it be conuenient in a towne, yet it is not in a citie, and although in a citie, yet not in a realme.

Io. Whitgifte.

If you will so deuide these seueral cities, and Churches in one kingdome, that they be not vnder one gouernoure, ruled by the same lawes, members of one king∣dome, but euery one of them as it were a common wealth within it selfe, (as it is in seuerall Churches within one kingdome in the time of persecution) then it is true that you say, and in this case were the primitiue Churches, and so were the Chur∣ches in Fraunce. But when as all the Townes and Churches in one kingdome, be subiect as wel in causes Ecclesiastical as ciuil, to one prince, ruled by the same lawes &c. then can you not establish this your Seigniorie without great confusion, and vn∣tollerable iniurie to the minister of God: I meane the Christian Magistrate.

The authoritie of the Master of the housholde ouer his family derogateth nothing from the authoritie of the Prince, but doth confirme and establish it rather. But the authoritie of your Seniors in euery congregation, spoyleth the prince of his Iuris∣diction, and maketh him subiect where he ought to be ruler, and therefore your rea∣son is not like.

Chap. 2. the. 13. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 3.

To be short saith he, when he can say no more, it cannot be gouerned when it is full of hypo∣crites Papists, Atheists, and other wicked persons, as in the times of persecution when ther were few or none such. I haue shewed before how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth, to saye that Papists and Atheists be of the Church, and I loue not as M. Doctor both to vse often reperiti∣on, but if there be now moe hypocrites and other wicked and vnruly persons in the Churche, than there were in the time of persecution (which I will not denie) then there is greater cause noro why there should be Seniors in euery Church, than there was then when there were fewer. For the more naughty persons, and the greater disorders there be, the more ayde and help hath the pastor neede to haue both to find out their disorders, and also when they haue found them out, to iudge of the qualitie of them, and after also to correct them with the censutes of the Church, which standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open, and excommunication, as I haue before rehearsed.

Io. Whitgifte.

What M. Doctor was able to say more, was vnknowne to you. If he woulde al∣ledge as vaine reasons as you do, and spende paper in vttering his owne fansies without eyther scripture or other authorities, as your vsuall manner is, he would at the least haue séemed to say much, as you do, who indéede say nothing at all.

I say againe that there be in the Churche, that is, in the externall societie of the Church, both Papists, Atheists, drunkards. &c. and your deniall of it I haue shewed before to be vaine. I say surther that those and such like offenders, may best be re∣formed by the ciuill Magistrate, and by corporall punishment: as for your Seniors they will not set a straw by them. For as M. Gualter sayth: They which cannot be brought into order by the authoritie of a lawfull magistrate, and by lawes, will much lesse suffer themselues to be punished by the commaundement of Seniors, or of an Ecclesiasti∣call senate, whome with all their solemnitie they will laugh to scorne.

Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 4. &. vlt.

Afterwarde he asketh what Seniors may be had in most of the parishe in Englande fit for

that office? he asketh the same question in the. 133. page, wher he also addeth Pastors, asking where may be gotten such Pastors as the authors of the Admonition require, when as they require no other than those which the word of God requireth. Well then if this be a good reason why there should be no Elders in any Church, bycause fit men are not to be gotten in all parishes: it followeth by M. Doctors reason, that for asmuch as we haue not fit and able Pastors for euery Churche, that therfore we ought to haue no able Pastor in any Church.

And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able Pastors in as many places as they may be gotten: how can he denie that we should haue Elders in those Churches where fitte men maye be had.

Io. Whitgifte.

The question is necessarie and cannot be so shifted of: But you are still like vnto your selfe. The reason of hauing Pastors & of hauing Seniors is nothing like: For the office of a Pastor is perpetuall, so is not the office of your Senior. Pastors be necessarie in the Church of Christ, as well for the administration of the sacraments, as for the preaching of the word, and other Ecelesiasticall functions: so be not Se∣niors. The office of a Pastor is not only described in the scriptures, but commaun∣ded also: shew where the office of your Senior is so. The office of a Pastor deroga∣teth nothing from the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate: but the office of your Seniors spoyleth him of the one halfe, and in a manner of the whole, as shall here∣after more plainly appeare. Wherefore this may well be true, that although suche Pastors as are to be wished cannot be prouided for euery place, yet there must be suche as may be conueniently come by. But the same is not true in Seniors, being neyther necessary, nor (where a Chistian Magistrate is) profitable, but the contrary.

And these reasons will serue to denie that of Seniors, which we graūt of Pastors, séeing the office of a Pastor is commaunded as necessarie and perpetuall: and not the office of a Senior.

Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 2.

And I say further, where we haue an expresse commaundement layd vpon vs to do a thing, there all disputations must cease, of hardnesse, of impossibilitie, of profyte, or else of peace. For first God hathe not commaunded any orders in his Churche, whiche are impossible, and if they seeme hard, it must be remembred, that the best and excellentest things are hardest, and that there is no∣thing so hard, which diligence and trauaile to bring it to passe, will not ouercome: whiche thing if it be proued true in worldly affayres, the truth thereof will much more appeare in the matters per∣teyning vnto God, considering that if God with his blessing do surmountè all the difficulties in worldly matters, which are otherwise hard to be compassed, he will in his owne matters and mat∣ters perteyning to his glory, fill vp the valleys, although they be neuer so low, bring downe the hilies, although they be neuer so high, playne the ways be they neuer so rough, so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh, a way tracked and easy to go in, and to walke towardes that kingdome, wherevnto he calleth vs.

Io. Whitgifte.

These be but words of course to no purpose. For firste you shoulde haue proued that the office of your Seniors is commaunded, which I vtterly denie. Then should you haue declared that the same commaundement is perpetuall: for many thinges are commaunded in the new testament, which be not perpetnall, as the washing of féete, Iohn. 13. to abstayne à sanguine & suffocat〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. Act. 15. to elect and choose wydowes, to minister in the Churche. 1. Timo. 5. and suche lyke. So that you haue craftily passed ouer two principall poyntes, and those whiche oughte to be the groundes of your cause. Fyrste therefore I denye that thys office of Saeniors is commaunded any where in the new Testamente: then I say that if it were commaunded, yet is it but a tempor ill commaundement. Those two pointes not being by you proued, the words you vtter are but in vaine.

Chap. 2. the. 16. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 15.

Besides that, I answere wheresoeuer there is a Churche, there are the riches of the spirite of God, there is with knowledge, discretion, and wisedome, and there are such as S. Paule calleth wise and can discerne and iudge. And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profyt〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣ble callyng, and especially to a publike callyng, God doth poure on his giftes of that person which is so called so plentyfully that he is as it were sodeynly made a newe man, whych if he dee in the wicked as Saule was, there is no doubt but he will doe it in those which are with the testimonie of the church, & with experience of their former godlie behauiour, chosen to such offices of weight. So that there is not nor can not be any want to obey Gods commaundement, and to establish the order in the Church which God hath appointed, but our owne eyther negligence and slouthfulnes, or fearfulnesse or ambition〈1 line〉〈1 line〉or some other leauen which we nourishe within our selues.

Io. Whitgifte.

This lacketh proose: for sometymes the churche of God is, where there is ney∣ther good Pastor, nor méete gouernour, as in the tyme of Elias. And though God somtymes bestow his gifts vpon y^• person that is called to a lawful and a publike function as he did vpon Saule, yet doth he not alway so. God doth not of necessitie tye his graces to offices: for as he in the beginning of his churche miraculously bestowed his giftes: so doth he now leaue the same, by outwarde meanes in parte to be obteyned, as by education, learning, instruction, reading, studying. &c. which meanes being neglec∣ted, God doth of his iustice permitte euill Magistrates and officers, which he also sometymes doth for the offences of the people, as may be séene in the most parte of the kings of Iuda, and of Ierusalem, and almost in all christian princes and gouer∣nours vnder the Popes tyrannie: For I suppose you meane such giftes as be profi∣table for the Churche.

Surely if this were true that you here so boldly withoute proofe affirme, then should it not much skill what kind of men wer chosen to be either Pastors, or Magi∣strates, for howsoeuer they were before furnished with gifts, yet when they be once called, God will miraculously poure vpon them gifts necessary, though they be the rudest and ignorantest men in a whole countrey. Is not this to boast of the spirit as the Anabaptists do? but I thinke the Reader vnderstandeth, that God now worketh by ord〈1 line〉〈1 line〉narie meanes, not by miracles. And though it be certaine that God dothe en∣due magistrates, such as feare him with singular gifts, yet doth he it by meanes as is said, and it is not at all times so, nor in all persons, but whē, where, and in whome it pleaseth him. Therefore to ground any generall doctrine vpon singular examples: or to stablish an externall kind of gouernment vpon Gods inward and secret wor∣king: to bind God vnto that of necessitie, that he doth bestow of grace and mercy: to make that common to al, which he of his infinite wisedome bestoweth vpon some: is not the part of a skilfull diuine.

But to let all this passe: you do still petere principium, and take that as graunted, which you cannot proue, that is, that the office of Seniors is an office established in the Church by the commaundement of God, and not to be altered: whiche I for my part can neuer graunt vnto you, except you haue more pithie reasons to proue it, than any that you haue as yet vttered.

Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 26. &. Sect. 1. 2.

It is true, that we ought to be obedient vnto the ciuill magistrate, which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto him, and according to that callyng. But it muste be remembred, that 〈◊〉〈◊〉 magistrates must gouerns it according to the rules of God prescribed in his worde, and that as they are nourises, so they be seruantes vnto the churche, and as they rule in the churche, so they must remember to subiect themselues vnto the church, to submit their scepters, to throwe downe their crownes, before the churche: yea as the prophet speaketh, to licke the dust of the feete of the churche. Wherin I meane not, that the church doth eyther wryng the scepters oute of princes handes, or taketh theyr crownes from their heades, or that it requyreth princes to licke the dust of her feete (as the pope vnder this pretence hath done) but I meane as the prophete meaneth, that what soeuer magnificence or excellencie, or pompe, is eyther in them,

or in their estates and common wealthes, whiche dothe not agree with the simplicitie and (in the iudgement of the world) poore and contemptible estate of the Church, that that they will be con∣tent to lay downe.

And here commeth to my minde, that wherewith the worlde is nowe dec〈1 line〉〈1 line〉iued, and wherewith M. Doctor goeth about both to deceyue himselfe & others too, in that he thinketh that the Church must be framed according to the common wealth, and the Church gouernment according to the 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣uill gouernment, (*) which is as much to say, as if a man should fashion his house according to his hangings when as indeede it is cleane contrary, that as the hangings are made fit for the house, so the common wealth must be made to agree with the Churche, and the gouernmente thereof with hir gouernment. For as the house is before the hangings, and therefore the hangings which come after, must be framed to the house which was before: so the Churche being before there was 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉y common wealth, and the common wealth comming after, must be fashioned and made suteable vn∣to the Church. Otherwise God is made to giue place to men, heauen to earth, and religion is made (as it were) a rule of Lesbia, to be applyed vnto any estate of common wealth whatsoeuer. Seing (*) that good men, that is to say, the Church are as it were the foundation of the world, it is meete that the common wealth which is builded vpon that foundation, should be framed according to the Churche, and therefore those voyces ought not to be heard, this order will not agree with our common wealth, that law of God is not for our state, this forme of gouernment wil not match with the pollicie of this realme.

Io. Whitgifte.

These words would be well considered, for they conteine the ouerthrow of the princes authoritie both in ecclesiasticall and ciuil matters. But I will only giue a breefe note of them in this place, meaning to set foorth this matter more at large else∣where. When he saith that the ciuill magistrate must gouerne according to his calling, and according to the rules of God prescribed in his word. &c. although the wordes be true, 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉et if you marke vpon what occasion they be spoken, you shall perceiue the venome that lyeth hid vnder them: for he doth thereby insinuate, that the ciuill Magistrate may not intermedle with the office of the Senior, that is, with ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction, for he taketh Seniors to be the officers appointed by God for that purpose: which is to be reaue the ciuill Magistrate of his authoritie, and to giue that to Seniors whiche the Pope vnder the like pretence doth arrogate vnto himselfe. And therefore w〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ll and truly sayth M. Gualter in the place before recited. Those men (meaning suche as call for Seniors when they haue a Christian Magistrate) do distinguish betweene the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in respect of the punishmente of sinnes, and the disci∣pline of manners. But this distinction is taken out of the Popes shoppe, and in the holy scriptures it is no where to be found. For there is the same reason of the magistrate in the new Testament, that was in times past in the old, for so much as Christ hathe sayde that he came not to breake the law, but to fulfill it: But in times past the Iudges and kings, had power to punish those that offended, neyther did the priestes or prophets thrust themselues into that busines, but so farre foorth as perteyned to admonitions and reprehensions, which they applyed out of the word of God according to the qualitie of the offences: Therefore the same must be obserued in the new Testament, neyther is it needefull that the ministers of the word should haue a peculiar senate, or that they should chalenge vnto themselues by any meanes those things that belong to the ciuil Magistrate. M. Gualters meaning is, that the ministers of the word cannot chalenge the authoritie of pu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉shing vice (other∣wise than by admonitions and reprehensions, that is, that they cannot chalenge this kinde of gouernment of a Seigniorie) by the word of God, bycause all such authori∣tie is committed to the ciuill Magistrate: So that if Byshops haue it, they must haue it from him, as it is in this Churche of England. And therfore wel sayth M Gualter in the same place: there may be appoynted such as shall haue the correction of manners in such countries where the ordinarie magistrates cannot do all themselues, but those must be appoynted by the magistrate, and do all at his commaundement: and not vsurp any di∣stinct Iurisdiction from the ordinarie magistrate.

The second poynte to be noted is, when he sayth that Christian princes must sub∣iecte themselues to the Churche, submitte their scepters, throw downe their crownes before the Churche. &c. the whiche kind of speach, the Pope himselfe vseth, and vnder the same pretence hath troden kings vnder his féete. And although T. C. seeme to mislike this

excessiue vsing of authoritie by the Pope, yet woulde be haue the same iurisdiction to remaine to his Seniors s〈1 line〉〈1 line〉il, whome be vnderstādeth by the name of the Church, as appeareth in that which he spake before of these words of Christ Dic Ecclesiae: so that he woulde haue the Prince, subiect hir selfe to the Seniors of the Churche, and throw downe hir crowne before them, that is, to be con〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ent to be ruled and gouer∣ned, to be punished and corrected, to be excommunicated and absolued by their discre∣tion, and at their pleasure. This no doubt is his meaning, neyther can it otherwise be: for if this kind of gouernment be once admitted, the Prince must néedes be of some peculiar Church and congregation, and therefore subiect to the Seigniorie of that Churche, except it please master Pastor (who is the chéefe) and the rest of hys neighbours the parishioners, to elect the Prince into the Seigniorie, and make hym one of them: and yet must the Pastor be his superior, and haue authoritie to cal him to consultations, and to direct him in matters of discipline, and whether he will or no he must be ordered and ruled by the Pastor and most part of the Seniors. And yet now I remember my selfe, the Prince cannot be of the Seigniorie, for T. C. al〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ttle after graūteth that his Seniors be no lay men but Ecclesiastic〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ll: so that indeede the Prince must be a seruant no master a subiect no Prince, vnder gouernment no go∣uernoure in matters perteyning to the Church.

And least any man should thinke that this is but my collection, (though it be most true, and I will iustify it so to be) I haue she wed before that whiche M. Gualter affir∣meth vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. as he also doth vpon the. 12. Chapter of the same Epistle say∣ing, there be some which according to the example of the old and primitiue Church wold haue Seniors, and an Ecclesiasticall senate, that should haue authoritie ouer magistrates, if they at any time do not their duty. And in deede this is one of the chiefe causes why our men would so gladly haue a Seigniorie: for they would gladly be in hand with ma∣gistrates to make them stoupe and bow downe vnto them.

The third point is in this, that he would haue, the gouernment of the common wealth and the common wealth it selfe, framed to the Churche, and the gouernmente thereof, as the han∣gings are made fit for the house, whereby as it may seeme he would haue all monarchies ouerthrowen and reduced eyther to a popular or an Aristocraticall estate: for these two kinds of gouernment he only alloweth of, in the Church, as it appeareth by that which he hath thereof oltener than once or twise spoken before.

Now the lawes of man will beare this, I knowe not, but I am well assured the law of God will not suffer it. For Christe came not to ouerthrow kinds of gouern∣ment, and ciuill policie, neyther doth the Gospell dissolue kingdomes, for S. Peter sayth. 1. Epist. 2. Proinde subditiestote cuiuis ordinationi 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉umanae propter dominum, siue Reg 1. &c. Submit yourselues vnto all manner ordinance of man for the Lords sake, whether it be vnto the king, as to the superior. And so Paule. 1. Tim. 2. to the exhorte him to pray for kings, which he would not haue done if the state of a kingdome could not agrée with the state of the Church.

But I will not amplify this matter. Let such consider of it, to whome it doth spe∣cially perteine. This is your reason to proue that the gouernmente of the common wealth, ought to be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche: bycause there was a Church before there was a common wealth: but I denie the argumente: and your similitude (of house and hangings) dothe not proue it. All the Examples in the Scripture of common wealthes, being also the Churches of God, declare the con∣trary, neyther can you she we any state altered in thys manner, but only among the Anabaptists.

Of like weyghtis your other reasō, which is this: Good men, that is the Church, are as it were the foundation of the worlde, the common wealth is builded vpon that foundation, there∣fore the gouernmente of the common wealth must be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche. This gere is to subtile for euery body to vnderstand: but the argumente is without all fashion, and it is neyther true in matter nor forme. For how pr〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e y〈1 line〉〈1 line〉u

that good menne are the foundation of the worlde? The fyrste menne were grée∣uous transgressoures, the moste of them. The euyll menne in multitude and worldely prosperitie, haue from tyme to tyme in the worlde ouergrowen them. Moreouer, the Churche visible conteyneth bothe good and badde: and so doth the common wealth, and therefore it can not be sayde to be buylded of good menne more than of euill men. To conclude, if all this were true, yet dothe not the ar∣gumente followe. For the foundation giueth strength, but it giueth not the whole forme or fashion to that whyche is buylded vppon it. For a man maye make alte∣rations in his house, though he doe not once moue or stirre the foundation. And sure∣ly howesoeuer you will dallie off these Collections vppon your manyfest wordes, similitudes, and reasons, with some deuised interpretation and shifte (for it will stande you in hande so to doe) yet what occasion you haue giuen therby to the com∣mon people, and other that be contentious, to mislyke of this present state and go∣uernmente, wyse men can consider. And to tell you playne, excepte you haue some mysticall sense in them, (whiche I can not conceiue) I sée not howe they can stande with your alleagiance. I speake of the wordes as you haue vttered them: I wil not enter into the depth of your meaning: And I will hope the best vntil I vnderstand further of your mynde.

Chap. 2. the. 18. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 133. Lin. 1.

Neyther is there any authoritie in the whole Bible, that enforceth or prescribeth that kinde of gouernment as necessarie or conuenient for all tymes: no more than there is to proue that in the Churche there must be always such as haue power to work miracles, or that haue the gift of healing and such like: whiche offices notwithstan∣ding are mentioned as well as gouernours in the first to the Cor. 12.

T. C. Pag. 144. Sect. vlt.

Nowe to come agayn to M. Doctors reasons, he sayeth in the. 133. page, that if they vrge go∣uernors bicause they are spoken of in the. 1〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. to the Cor. then they may aswell vrge the power 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉o work miracles, the gift of healing. &c. for that they are likewise reckned vp in the same place. But doth not M. Doccor know, that although some things be extraordinarie, and for a time, yet other some things are ordinarie and to endure always? wil he say for that the gifts of miracles and of healing are extraordinarie, therfore the teachers which are there reckned together with the gifte of working miracles and of healing are extraordinarie? hath he forgotten that he (in deed vntruly) made before the office of Apostles & prophetes and euangelistes, a perpetual office, and yet they are there ioyned with these gifts which were but for a time, and therfore it is a very absurd argument to say, that for that some thing reckened with gouernours, is for a tyme, and extraordinarie, ther∣fore the gouernours also be so.

Io. Whitgifte.

And howe proue you, that the office of Seniors is more ordinarie, or of longer continuance than the office of Apostles, Prophetes, the power of working miracles, and of healing, which be in that place recited as well as those gouernours be, whome you call Seniors? You ought to haue proued the office of Seniors to be perpetuall: for that I denye and shewe my reason, that it can not be proued out of that place by∣cause other offices mentioned in that place to the Corinthians be temporall. But this béeing moste materiall, you passe it ouer, bycause you are not able to proue it. I hane tolde you before in what sense there may be both Apostles, Prophets, and Euan∣gelistes. And if I can not necessarily conclude, y^t the office of Seniors is temporal, bi∣cause it is rehersed among those offices & gifts y^t be tēporal, much lesse can you cōclude

that it is perpetuall, the moste of the offices and giftes with it expressed, béeing temporall.

Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 133. Lin. 9.

Well sayth Musculus in his common places, tit. de Magist. Si reuocas tem∣porum illorum mores, primùm conditiones & statum quo{que} illorum reuoca. If thou vvilte vse the maners of that time, first cal agayne the condition and state of that time: That is, let vs be without christian Magistrates, as they were: let vs be vnder Tyrants and persecutors as they were. &c.

T. C. Page. 145. Lin. 11.

As for Musculus authoritie, which is, that the times doe chaunge the orders, besides that I haue answered before, & besides that he doth not speake it of the Elders, I haue proued that it can haue no place heere, for somuch as the Elders are necessarie, and commaunded in the scripture.

Io. Whitgifte.

Musculus in that place speaketh of the gouernment of the Church, and of the au∣thoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in matters ecclesiasticall: And proueth that the go∣uernment of the Church may not be now, as it was in the Apostles time.

And a little before speaking of the Seigniorie, he affirmeth as much, as it appeareth in his words before recited. You haue not as yet proued, eyther the office of Seniors nowe to be necessarie, or the same to be commaunded in the Scripture.

Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 133. in the midst.

You say it is more easie for the wicked by bribing to peruert and corrupt one man, than to peruert and ouerthrowe the fayth and pie∣tie of a zelous and godly companie: and therefore better the gouern∣ment of the Churche to be committed to many, than to one. If this reason be good, then the more there be that rule, the better is the go∣uernment, and so popularis status erit optimus reipublicae status: agaynst all both diuinitie and Philosophie: for we see that God him selfe in his com∣mon weale of Israell, did alwayes allowe the gouernment and su∣perioritie of one ouer the rest, bothe in the time of Iudges, and after in the time of the Kings. And in the newe Testament we may also see that kind of gouernment most allowed of. 1. Pet. 2. But I will not heere reason with you in this matter, and call that into question, which hath bin by so many learned men determined, and by the ex∣amples of all good common weales confirmed.

T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 1.

Unto the Authors of y^e Admonition, saying y^t it is easier to ouerthrow by bribing one mā, than the fayth & pietie of a godly companie, he answereth, that so it should come to passe, that the moe y^t ruled the better estate it should be, and so the popular estate should be the best. But where do the authors of the Admonition say, that the more that rule, the better it is? Is it all one to saye, that the go∣uernment of a fewe of the best is better than the gouernment of one, and to saye, the more that rule the better? If it were to the purpose, it might be shewed bothe by Diuinitie and by Philosophie, which M. Doctor speaketh of, that that estate which he meaneth is not the best, and I haue in a

worde before spoken of, where I declared that the mixed estate is best, bothe by the example of the kingdome of Christ, and also of this our realme.

Io. Whitgifte.

But if this be a g〈1 line〉〈1 line〉od reason agaynst the rule and gouernment of one, that the Ad∣monition vseth, then the moe that rule the better it is, and this is all that I charge thē with. Whervnto you answere not one worde, but dally off the matter, by asking where do the authors of the Admonition say, that the moe that rule the better it is. I might dal∣ly with you in like maner, & say: where doth any man charge them with so saying? yet doth the same necessarily follow vpō their reason. They say not, the gouernment of a fewe of the best, but of a companie: which signifieth many: and why should not this ar∣gument be good? if the gouernment of a fewe godly men be better than the gouern∣ment of one, bicause one is easier ouerthrowne by bribing than moe, then is also the gouernment of many godly men, better than the gouernment of a few, bicause a few may sooner be corrupted than many: and consequently by the same reason, the moe that gouerne the better. This reason you haue glaunced by, and not touched: and yet it enforceth a manyfest absurditie, agaynst the Authors of the Admonition. For it is too absurde to saye that a Popular estate is the best state: neyther will any affirme it, but those which woulde be Popular.

You are neuer able to shew eyther by Diuinitie or Philosophie, that there are moe lawfull kindes of gouernment than thrée: that is, Democraticall, Aristocratical, and Monarchicall, and of these, bothe the Scripture and Philosophie alloweth of the Mo∣narchie, as simply the best.

The gouernment of this kingdome is a right and true Monarchie. Neither do you know what a Monarchie is, when you call it a mixt estate: for that is called a Mo∣narchie, where the chiefe care and gouernment of the common wealth is committed to one, as it is in this kingdome in euery respect.

Chap. 2. the. 21. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 1.

It is sufficient nowe to admonish you, that although it be graunted that the gouernment of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 be the best in the common wealth, yet it can not be in the Church: for the Prince may wel be Mo∣narche immediatly betweene God and the common wealth, but no man can be Monarch betweene God and his Church but Christ, which is the onely head thereof. Therfore the Monarchie ouer the whole Church and ouer euery particular Churche, and ouer euery singular member in the Church, is in Christ alone.

Io. Whitgifte.

If you meane of the vniversall Churche, onely Christ is the head, neyther hath he any Uicegerent to supply that vniuersall care ouer the whole Churche. But if you speake of particular Churches, as the Churche of Englande, the Churche of Den∣marke. &c. then as the Prince is chiefe gouernour and head of the common wealthe vnder God, so is he of the Churche likewise. For it is certayne that the christian Ma∣gistrate vnder Christ, hath as great authoritie, as the Magistrate had vnder y^e law: But then the ciuill Magistrates had chiefe authoritie bothe in matters of the com∣mon wealth, and of the Churche also (as héereafter it shall more playnely appeare) therefore the Magistrate ought to haue the same nowe in like maner. T. C. doth but glaunce at the Magistrate, bicause he dare not speake playnly: but suche licentious spéeches (thoughe voyde of all reason and grounde) may peraduenture sinke déeper into the heart of the subiects, especially of the Papist (who hathe already conceyued the same opinion of the ciuill Magistrate) than will be rooted out in shorte time: so carefull are these men in procuring to the Prince due obedience, and so faythfull are they in maynteyning hir authoritie, according to their othe and duetie.

Chap. 2. the. 22. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. &. Pag. 132. Sect. 3.

Both the names & offices of Seniors were extinguished before Ambrose tyme, as he himselfe dothe testifie, writing vpon the fifth of the fyrst to Timothie.

In deede as Ambrose sayth, writing vpon the fyfth of the fyrst to Timothie, The Synagogue, and after, the Church had Seniors, vvithout vvhose counsell nothing vvas done in the Churche, but that was before hys time, and before there was any christian Magistrates, or any Churche established.

T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 2.

Last of al (*) to proue that there ought to be no Seniors in the church vnder a christian Prince, he citeth Ambrose authoritie both in the. 114. and. 132. pages, which sayth that the Synagogue or Church of the Iewes, and after that the Church of the Christians had Seniors, without whose counsel nothing was done in the Church: whervpon he concludeth, that for as much as they were not in Ambrose time, therefore they were not vnder a christian Prince.

Io. Whitgifte.

This is most vntrue. I alleage not Ambrose in eyther of those places to proue that Seniors ought not to be vnder a christian Prince, as the Reader may vnderstande euidently by my words. Only I confesse that there was Seniors, and I alleage Am∣brose partly for that purpose, partly to shewe that both their names and offices were extinguished before his time: no man liuing can gather any other sense out of my words. Wherfore that conclusion vpon Ambrose wordes is yours, it is not myne: and I am sory that malice hath throwne you so déepe into y^e pit of vntruth, that you can not be gotten out of it. No cloake or shadow can couer this deformitie of yours.

Chap. 2. the. 23. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 2.

And heere M. Doctor hathe in one sentence proclaymed bothe his great ignorance in the whole storie of the Church, and withall cyther a maruelous abusion, and 〈◊〉〈◊〉 him selfe to be mislead by some vnaduised, prompter, or subtile foxe, that thought to deceyue him, or else a notable cuill con∣science, whych wrastleth agaynst the truthe. His ignorance dothe appeare, partly in that he sayth∣that bicause there were no Seniors in Ambrose Church, and in those Churches about him, there∣fore there was none at all: but most manifestly in that he sayth, for so muche as there were no Seniors in Ambrose time, therfore there was none vnder a christian Prince, as though there were not many yeres before Ambrose time christian Emperours, when as betweene the time of S. Am∣brose beeing Bishop, & the time of Philip, the sonne of Gordias the first christian Emperour, there is more than. 150. yeres, and betwene the time of Constantine the Emperour, and the time of Am∣brose beeing Bishop, there be aboue. 80. yeres. And if M. Doctor had euer read the Ecclesiasticall stories, he mought haue (*) found easily the Eldership moste florishing in Constantines time, and other times, when as the peace of the Christians was greatest.

Io. Whitgifte.

Except it were to set fóorth your owne knowledge, & to leaue a publike testimonie of your great humilitie and modestie, you would not so immodestly accuse M. Doctor of ignorance, though you had cōuinced him of it, as you neyther haue done, nor are able to do〈1 line〉〈1 line〉, in that that he professeth. Likewise except your selfe vsed prompters, & patched your booke with other mēs collectiōs, you wold neuer so oftē charge me with y^e same.

I did not say, as I told you before, that bicause there was no Seniors in Ambrose time, therfore there was none vnder a christiā Prince, but this I say, that y^e Seniors which Ambrose speaketh of, were extinguished before Ambrose time, and were not in the time of christian Princes.

To what purpose do you accoūt y^• time betwixt Philip & Ambrose, or Cōstantine and Ambrose? you should rather proue that this kind of gouernment by Seniors was in Philips dominiō, if he were christened (which may be doubted) or vnder Constantinus.

You say, if I had euer read the ecclesiasticall stories, I myght haue found easily the Eldership most florishing in Constantinus time, and other times, when as the peace of the Christians was greatest. You haue read the Ecclesiasticall stories, how chaunce that you shew it not. It is your parte to proue: you holde the affirmatiue. Bring foorth one Ecclesiastical historie that affirmeth this kind of gouernment to haue bin vnder Constantinus. You might at the least haue quoted the Author (with the booke and chapter) that so sayth, though you had disdayned to set downe his wordes. I denie not but it might be so in some time, and in some place vnder a christian Prince (and yet I know not how you will be able to proue it) but that is not the question. For our contention is, whether this kind of gouernment ought of necessitie to be vnder a christian Prince, or not, and whether it be conuenient so to be, though it be not necessarie, and not whether it hathe bin (which notwithstanding can not be proued) or may be.

Chap. 2. the. 24. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 3.

And that the Presbyterie or Eldership endured in the Church after Ambrose time, and in the time of peace, and as it is very like in Ambrose time, although not where he was, it may be shewed playnly by Hierome (which followed Ambrose immediatly) who in his third chapter vpon I say sayth, that they had also the Presbyterie or Eldership in the churche.

Io. Whitgifte.

Ierome speaketh not one word of your Presbyterie, his words be these: Et nos habemus in ecclesia senatū nostrū, coetū presbyterorū: And we haue in the Church our Senate, a company of Elders. Which he meaneth of Priests, and of Colledges of Cathedrall Churches, that were then in euery citie, and not of a Seigniorie in euery congregation, wherby euery seuerall parish was gouerned. That this was Ieromes meaning, it appeareth in the same place vpō these words, Hariolum & senem, where he interpreteth the word Presbyter, sayth they be suche as S. Paule describeth in his Epistle to Tim. and those be ministers of the word and sacraments. So may we say that we haue senatum & coe∣tum presbyterorum in this Church of England, whether you will meane it of Synodes and conuocations, or of Cathedrall & Collegiate Churches, which consist ex coetu pre∣sbyterorū: of a companie of ministers. And therfore Duarenus a learned writer speaking of this Seigniorie, sayth thus: And it is to be noted that there was a certayne Colledge of those Elders (he meaneth Priests, as it is euidēt in that which goeth before) in eue∣ry citie, ouer whom the Bishop had rule, suche as is at this day the Colledge of Canons, which seeme to haue succeeded into their place. And this company of Priests dothe Ierome call the senate of the Church.

This Senate cōsisteth of Priests: yours of mē in no degrée of the ministerie: This Senate was only in euery citie, & the Bishop was the chiefe, yours must be in euery parish, & directed by y^e Pastor. We reade not of any such iurisdiction that this Senate had ouer any, but ouer the Cleargie, yours must haue authoritie both ouer cleargie and laytie: wherfore this place of Ierome doth not helpe you one whit. But be it that this Seigniorie was y^e same that you meane of, and that it was in Ieromes church, yet for as much as it was not in Ambrose his church also, it manifestly appeareth to be a thing indifferent, and not of necessitie to be vrged.

Chap. 2. the. 25. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. vlt.

The same might be shewed by diuers other testimonies, which I omit, bicause that it may ap∣peare by the former treatise touching the election of the minister, that this order of Eldership con∣tinued in the Church diuers hundred yeres after Ambrose tyme, euen as long almost as there was any sounde parte of the churche, from the head to the heele.

Io. Whitgifte.

But séeing that you haue hitherto brought foorth so few testimonies, scil. one only, and that to smal purpose, it had bin wel if you had not passed the rest ouer so lightly.

For it is soone sayde, that diuers other testimonies might haue bin shewed: but it had bin much for your credite if you had recited but one 〈◊〉〈◊〉, that we might at the least haue had two witnesses, but in déede you are not able. In your treatise of the election of ministers no such thing appeareth, except you will haue whole parishes of the Seig∣niorie, and the same to be without a Pastor, who should be the guide. For parishes do not vsually choose their Pastor vntill they be destitute. Neyther is there any mention made by you, or proofe in that treatise, that there was a Seigniorie in euery parishe, to whome the election was committed, and therefore you doe but speake this, pro for∣ma tantùm.

Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. vlt.

Nowe I haue shewed the ignorance, it remayneth to shew how that eyther M. Doctor was maruellously himself abused, or else desireth to abuse ether. For if where as he tooke halfe Ambrose sentence, he had taken the other halfe with him, and had not sodenly stopped his breath, that he shuld speake no more, in stead of a false witnesse agaynst the Eldership, he should haue brought foorth as cleare and as 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉lat a witnesse for the proofe of them, as a man could desire out of an auncient writer. The whole sentence is thys speaking of this office of Elders (although not vpon so good occasion) thus he sayth: Whervpon the Synagogue, and after the Churche had Elders, without whose councell nothing was done in the Churche, which Elders I know not by what negligence they are worne out, onlesse it be through the slouthfulnesse of the Doctors, or rather through their pride, whylest they onely would seeme to be somewhat.

Io. Whitgifte.

But if you be not able to alleage one place to proue that your seigniorie was in the time of christian Princes, except onely that place of Hieronie, M. Doctors ignorance is not so great, especially séeing that Ambrose, Hieronis auncient denieth the same to haue bin in his tyme. But if hauing one onely testimonie, and that making nothing for your purpose, but agaynst you rather (bicause it establisheth Collegiate Chur∣ches, which you would gladly throwe downe) then M. Doctors knowledge in thys matter, is more than you can with all your loftie spéeches & immodest words obscure.

I haue alleaged so muche of Ambrose faythfully aud truely, as proueth that which I alleage him for: Neyther haue I left out one worde that maketh agaynst that my purpose: for if you remember your selfe, you can not but sée and vnderstande that I only alleage Ambrose to proue, that there was sometime a Seigniorie, but yet dissol∣ued and abrogated before his time. If that whiche followeth in Ambrose disproue this, then in déede you may say, that eyther I am abused, or desire to abuse other. But if it nothing derogate from my intent and purpose, then why do you falsly charge me, or why picke you a quarel agaynst me for omitting that which neyther doth me harme nor good. Disproue any thing by any words of Ambrose that I haue alleaged Am∣brose for, if you can: if you can not, then temper your immoderate spéeches, & frame them according to the truthe.

If Ambrose so misliked y^e abrogating of this Seigniorie, why did he not labour to restore it agayne: surely if it had bin a matter so necessarie, he béeing so godly and ze∣lous a Bishop, would neuer haue suffered his Church to be spoyled of it, but it is eui∣dent by his words that it had not bin in practise long time before.

Chap. 2. the. 27. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1.

Now that I haue shewed the place, I will say no more, I will leaue it to M. Doctor to think of it in his chamber by himselfe, and so will conclude this question: that for so much as this order is such, as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised, and that whyche is commaunded by the scriptures, approued and receyued by all the Churches in the Apostles tymes, and many hundred yeres after in the most florishing churches, both in time of peace, and in time of persecution, and that there are greater causes why it shoulde be in the time of peace, than in tyme of persecution, why rather vnder a christian prince, than vnder a tyrant, why rather nowe, than in the Apostles tymes, that in consideration of these things the Eldership is necessarie, and suche an order as the Churche ought not be without.

Io. Whitgifte.

It forceth not greatly whether you say any more of it, or no: for as it nothing hin∣dreth my purpose, so winneth it no credite vnto yours. And for asmuch as the Church may muche better be gouerned, and the principall offices of charitie much better exer∣cised, by the ciuil Magistrate, than by these Seniors: and séeing that this kinde of go∣uernment is neyther commaunded in the scriptures, nor practised in the Church as a kinde of gouernment not to be altered, séeing also that it bringeth in confusion, dero∣gateth from that authoritie that God hath giuen to the ciuil Magistrate, howsoeuer it hath héeretofore bin vsed, yet is there no cause, why it should nowe, or at any tyme vnder Christian Princes, be of necessitie reteyned.

Chap. 2. the. 28. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1.

And so also is answered the thirde question, that for so muche as they were Churche officers and ouer the people in matters perteyning to God, and such as watched ouer the soules of men that therfore although they were not Pastors to preache the word, yet were they no lay men (as they terme them) but ecclesiasticall persons.

Io. Whitgifte.

M. Beza in an Epistle, that is prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Hel〈1 line〉〈1 line〉tia, speaking of the Seigniorie, sayth, that there must be a great consideration had, that Princes and noble men, and suche as haue authoritie and preheminence in the Churche, be chosen to be of the Seigniorie: and will you make noble men and Prin∣ces ecclesiasticall persons, and suche as must watche ouer the soules of men? in déede those that be called Presbyteri, in the Scriptures be Ecclesiasticall persons, for they be ministers of the worde and Sacraments. And M. Caluine Institut. cap. 8. sect. 52. sayth, that all the Seniors were ministers of the worde. His words be these: Habe∣bant ergo singulae Ciuitates Presbyterorū collegium, qui pastores erant & Doctores: nam & apud populū munus docendi, exhortandi & corrigendi, quod Paulus Episcopis iniungit, OMNES obi∣bant: for euery Citie had a Colledge of Seniors, which were Pastors and teachers: for they dyd all exercise among the people, the offyce of teaching, exhorting, and correcting, which Paule dothe inioyne to Bishops. But howe can you make your Seniors ecclesiasticall, séeing your Seigniorie must consist of noble men, gentlemen, marchauntmen, hus∣bandmen, handycraftesmen, as Taylors, Shomakers, Carpenters. &c. euen suche as the most part of the Parish will choose?

Chap. 2. the. 29. Diuision.

Admonition.

Then the sentence was tempred according (h) to the notoriousnesse of the fact. Nowe on the one 〈◊〉〈◊〉 eyther hatred agaynst some persons carrieth men headlong into rash and cruell iudgement: or else fauour, affection or money mitigateth the rigour of the same, and all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment lefte of Christ (i) to his Churche, is committed into one mans hands, whome alone it shall be more easie for the wicked by bribing to peruert, than to ouerthrow the fayth & pietie of a zelous and godly companie, for suche maner of men in deede (k) should the Seniors be.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. & Pag. 131. 132. & Pag. 133. Lin. vlt. & Pag. 134. Sect. 1.

You say, all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment left of Christ to his Church, is committed vnto one mans hands: and for the proofe of this, you note in the margent the. 18. of Mat. the. 12. of the first to the Corin. the. 12. to the Rom. the. 5. of the first to Timoth. the. 15. of the Acts, whiche places beeing examined, let the discrete Reader iudge howe aptly they serue for your purpose.

In the. 18. of Math. Christ sayeth on this sort: If thy brother tres∣passe agaynst thee, go and tell him his fault betvveene him and thee alone, &c. In the which place it is by the consent of all interpreters mani∣fest, that Christe prescribeth a rule of correcting priuate and secrete sinnes, and not of suche as be open and knowne to others. For he would not haue pryuate and secrete sinnes blased abroad & publike∣ly reprehended, before the partie offending be in this order first pri∣uately admonished: this maketh nothing for your purpose, it taketh away authoritie of iudging and condemning from priuate men, and not from publike magistrates.

In the. 12. of the first to the Corinth. verse. 28. these be the words of the Apostle: And God hath ordeyned some in the Churche: as first A∣postles, secondly Prophetes, thirdly teachers, then them that do miracles, after that the gifte of healing, helpers, gouernours, diuersitie of tounges. How can you gather of these wordes, that all this commeth to passe (that is, hatred, fauour, corruption by money, and affection in iudge∣ment) bycause the regiment lefte of Christe to his Churche, is com∣mitted to one mans hands? In these wordes the Apostle declareth that Christ hath lefte in his Churche gouernours, and thereof you may well conclude, that in the Churche there muste be some whiche shoulde haue authoritie ouer the reste. The Apostle dothe not here say that in euery particular congregation Christ hath left many go∣uernours, no more than he sayeth that he hath left many pastors for one flocke: but in his Churche he hath ordeyned gouernours.

The gouernement of the whole vniuersall Churche, is not by Christe committed to one Bishop, or one Prince, nor the gouernment of the whole worlde, to one Emperour: for no one man can discharge such a cure, and therefore he hath appoynted in his Churche diuers Bishops, diuers Princes, many gouernours. But one Prince may suffise to gouerne one kingdome, and one Archbishop one Prouince, as chiefe and principall ouer the reste, one Byshop one Diocesse, one Pastor one parishe, neyther doth the Apostle speake any thing to the contrarie.

In the. 12. to the Romaines it is thus written: he that ruleth vvith diligence. What maketh this for your purpose, or how cā you wring it to your assertion?

In the. 5. of the. 1. to Timothie. The Elders that rule vvell are vvor∣thy of double honour. &c. Paule sheweth in these wordes that suche are worthy theyr stipende & reward, which rule well in the Church, and do their duties diligently: But what is that to your assertion?

The places alledged out of the fiftenth of the Actes, be of the like sorte. Wheresoeuer mention is made in the Scriptures of go∣uernours or Elders, that you alledge to improue the gouernment of one man, wherein you shewe a great wante of iudgement. And yet there is no one person in this Realme (the Prince only excepted) which hath such absolute iurisdiction, as you would make your dis∣ciples beleue. But your meaning is, that Christe lefte the whole go∣uernment of his Churche to the Pastor, and to some foure of fiue of

the Parish besides, which you are not able to proue; & your places of scripture alleged signifie no such matter. In those places y^t be gouer∣ned by many, do you not see what cōtention there is? what enimitie? what factiōs? what partes taking? what cōfusion? what little good order obserued? what carelesnesse & dissolutnesse in al māner of beha∣uiour? I could make this manifest by examples, if I were disposed.

In the. 18. of Exodus, which (place you quote to proue that Se∣niors ought to be zelous and godly) Iethro giueth Moses counsell not to weary himselfe in hearing all matters that be brought vnto him, but rather to commit the hearing and determining of smaller matters to others: And therefore verse. 21. he sayeth: Prouide thou a∣mong all the people, men of courage, fearing God, men dealyng truly, ha∣uing couetousnesse, and appoynt suche ouer them to be rulers ouer thou∣sands, rulers ouer hundredes, rulers ouer fifties, and rulers ouer tennes. &c. This maketh nothing for Seniors: Moses here was chiefe, these were but his vnder officers placed by himselfe. This place serueth well for the gouernment of one Prince ouer one whole realme, and giueth him good counsell what vnder officers he ought to choose. To the same effect and purpose is that spoken and written whiche you cite out of the first of Deuteron. verse. 13.

T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1.

The rest comprehended in these sections, is answered before, beyng matter whiche perteyned vnto the Archbishop.

Io. Whitgifte.

Uery litle of it perteyneth to the Archbishop. The Authors of y^• Admonitiō bring in all these places of Scripture, to proue the gouernment of your Seniors, but how aptly it app〈1 line〉〈1 line〉areth, in that you cannot salue their follies in so vnapt allegatiōs. There be other thinges that require answere, but you haue shifted of all in saying, that they perteyne to the Archbishop & be answered before: when as neyther of both is true: for they perteyne to your Seniors and be no where as yet answered. But I leaue it to the Reader here to consider, why you haue not set downe my booke in your Replie.

Notes

• (*)

  Where finde you this in all the scriptures
• The office as∣cri〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ed to Se∣niors, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣gistrate o〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 his authoriti〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 in ecclesiasticall matters.
• No more au∣thoriti〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 〈◊〉〈◊〉 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ed to a ch〈1 line〉〈1 line〉i∣stian Magi∣strate, tha〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 t〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 the Turke.
• Math. 18.
• 4. chap.
• 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉0. chap.
• 1. li. 13. cha.
• Dic ecclesiae interpreted.
• Church, for the gouernors of the church.
• Hom. 61. in Matth.
• Musc. tit. de Magist. in lo. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉om.
• Matth. 5.
• 1. Tim. 6.
• (*)

  This cannot be true as shall be declared.
• The office of Seniors not mentioned in the. 1. Tim. much lesse commanded.
• The whole epistle to 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉s not that com∣mandement.
• Wherevnto that comman∣dement is re∣ferred.
• Chrysostome. Caluine.
• 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉▪
• The Church may no〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 be gouerned vn∣der 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 〈◊〉〈◊〉 stian Prince as 〈◊〉〈◊〉 a ty∣rant.
• Musculus.
• Supra in the 4. diuision. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉
• Gualter. in. 1. Cor. 5.
• The ciuill ma gistrate a bet∣ter help to the minister, than the Seniors.
• 1. Epistle. 5.
• The question is not of the abili∣rie to find Seni ors, but of the necesti〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ie of ha∣〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ing them.
• God hath pro∣uided better for his church by giuyng chri stian magi∣strates, then by Seniors.
• The gouern∣ment of the church monar chicall.
• Tract. 8.
• C. T. bendeth his force a∣gainst a mo∣narchie.
• Scon〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 spoil〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉.
• Tract. 3 cap. 6 diuisi. 2. &. 4. The Magi∣strate may better 〈◊〉〈◊〉 offenders, thā the Semors. Gual. 1. cor. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉.
• Difference betweene the necessitie of Pastors and of Seniors.
• The office of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 no 〈◊〉〈◊〉 com∣〈1 line〉〈1 line〉.
• 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 13. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 15. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 5.
• 1. Sam. 10.
• God bestoa weth his gifts by meanes.
• The absurdi∣tie of the R〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣plye.
• Esay. 49.
• (*)

  A dangerous doctrine.
• (*)

  An obscu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e, and deformed argument.
• The ouer∣throw of the princes autho ritie conteined in the Reply.
• Gualter.
• The prince made subiect to Seniors by the Replyer.
• Pag. 140. in the latter end.
• Pa. 146. sect. 1.
• Gualter.
• The Replyer seeketh the 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣uerthrow of monarchtes.
• Christ & the Gospell 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉o e∣nin〈1 line〉〈1 line〉les so 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• 1. Pet. 2.
• 1. Timo. 2.
• Retortion 〈◊〉〈◊〉 absurdi〈1 line〉〈1 line〉▪
• There are no more lawfull kinds of go∣uernmēt than three.
• The gouern∣ment of thys realme a true Monarchie.
• Christ the on∣ly head of hys vniuersall church.
• The Prince head of a par∣ticular church
• T. C. glaun∣ceth at the magistrate.
• (*)

  Vntrue, for it is not alleaged for that 〈◊〉〈◊〉
• (*)

  An vntruthe, else name your stories.
• 4. Tom. 2. lib. in Isaiā.
• It is in the. 5. tom. not in the. 4
• Hier. 2. lib. in Isaiam.
• What Pres∣byterie Ierō meaneth.
• Duarenus.
• Differēce be∣twixte Ie∣roms presby∣terie▪ and that the Replyer would esta∣blishe.
• Ambrose vpon. 1. Ti. cap. 5.
• (a) The place Heb. 13. is quo∣ted only for the phrase, for it pro ueth nothing in question.
• (a) Heb. 13.
• Beza.
• Caluine.
• (h)

  1. Ti. 1. 20.
• (i)

  Mat. 18. 7. 1. Co. 12. 28 Rom. 12. 8. 1. Ti. 5. 17. Act. 15. 2. 4 6. 22. 23.
• (k)

  Exod. 18. 21 Deut. 1. 13.
• An vnperfect reason.
• Lacke of dis∣cretion in al〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣ging of scrip∣tures.