The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 26. &. Sect. 1. 2.

It is true, that we ought to be obedient vnto the ciuill magistrate, which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto him, and according to that callyng. But it muste be remembred, that 〈◊〉〈◊〉 magistrates must gouerns it according to the rules of God prescribed in his worde, and that as they are nourises, so they be seruantes vnto the churche, and as they rule in the churche, so they must remember to subiect themselues vnto the church, to submit their scepters, to throwe downe their crownes, before the churche: yea as the prophet speaketh, to licke* 1.1 the dust of the feete of the churche. Wherin I meane not, that the church doth eyther wryng the scepters oute of princes handes, or taketh theyr crownes from their heades, or that it requyreth princes to licke the dust of her feete (as the pope vnder this pretence hath done) but I meane as the prophete meaneth, that what soeuer magnificence or excellencie, or pompe, is eyther in them,

or in their estates and common wealthes, whiche dothe not agree with the simplicitie and (in the iudgement of the world) poore and contemptible estate of the Church, that that they will be con∣tent to lay downe.

And here commeth to my minde, that wherewith the worlde is nowe dec〈1 line〉〈1 line〉iued, and wherewith M. Doctor goeth about both to deceyue himselfe & others too, in that he thinketh that the Church must be framed according to the common wealth, and the Church gouernment according to the 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣uill gouernment, (*) 1.2 which is as much to say, as if a man should fashion his house according to his hangings when as indeede it is cleane contrary, that as the hangings are made fit for the house, so the common wealth must be made to agree with the Churche, and the gouernmente thereof with hir gouernment. For as the house is before the hangings, and therefore the hangings which come after, must be framed to the house which was before: so the Churche being before there was 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉y common wealth, and the common wealth comming after, must be fashioned and made suteable vn∣to the Church. Otherwise God is made to giue place to men, heauen to earth, and religion is made (as it were) a rule of Lesbia, to be applyed vnto any estate of common wealth whatsoeuer. Seing (*) 1.3 that good men, that is to say, the Church are as it were the foundation of the world, it is meete that the common wealth which is builded vpon that foundation, should be framed according to the Churche, and therefore those voyces ought not to be heard, this order will not agree with our common wealth, that law of God is not for our state, this forme of gouernment wil not match with the pollicie of this realme.

Io. Whitgifte.

These words would be well considered, for they conteine the ouerthrow of the* 1.4 princes authoritie both in ecclesiasticall and ciuil matters. But I will only giue a breefe note of them in this place, meaning to set foorth this matter more at large else∣where. When he saith that the ciuill magistrate must gouerne according to his calling, and according to the rules of God prescribed in his word. &c. although the wordes be true, 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉et if you marke vpon what occasion they be spoken, you shall perceiue the venome that lyeth hid vnder them: for he doth thereby insinuate, that the ciuill Magistrate may not intermedle with the office of the Senior, that is, with ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction, for he taketh Seniors to be the officers appointed by God for that purpose: which is to be reaue the ciuill Magistrate of his authoritie, and to giue that to Seniors whiche the Pope vnder the like pretence doth arrogate vnto himselfe. And therefore w〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ll and truly sayth M. Gualter in the place before recited. Those men (meaning suche as* 1.5 call for Seniors when they haue a Christian Magistrate) do distinguish betweene the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in respect of the punishmente of sinnes, and the disci∣pline of manners. But this distinction is taken out of the Popes shoppe, and in the holy scriptures it is no where to be found. For there is the same reason of the magistrate in the new Testament, that was in times past in the old, for so much as Christ hathe sayde that he came not to breake the law, but to fulfill it: But in times past the Iudges and kings, had power to punish those that offended, neyther did the priestes or prophets thrust themselues into that busines, but so farre foorth as perteyned to admonitions and reprehensions, which they applyed out of the word of God according to the qualitie of the offences: Therefore the same must be obserued in the new Testament, neyther is it needefull that the ministers of the word should haue a peculiar senate, or that they should chalenge vnto themselues by any meanes those things that belong to the ciuil Magistrate. M. Gualters meaning is, that the ministers of the word cannot chalenge the authoritie of pu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉shing vice (other∣wise than by admonitions and reprehensions, that is, that they cannot chalenge this kinde of gouernment of a Seigniorie) by the word of God, bycause all such authori∣tie is committed to the ciuill Magistrate: So that if Byshops haue it, they must haue it from him, as it is in this Churche of England. And therfore wel sayth M Gualter in the same place: there may be appoynted such as shall haue the correction of manners in such countries where the ordinarie magistrates cannot do all themselues, but those must be appoynted by the magistrate, and do all at his commaundement: and not vsurp any di∣stinct Iurisdiction from the ordinarie magistrate.

The second poynte to be noted is, when he sayth that Christian princes must sub∣iecte* 1.6 themselues to the Churche, submitte their scepters, throw downe their crownes before the Churche. &c. the whiche kind of speach, the Pope himselfe vseth, and vnder the same pretence hath troden kings vnder his féete. And although T. C. seeme to mislike this

excessiue vsing of authoritie by the Pope, yet woulde be haue the same iurisdiction to remaine to his Seniors s〈1 line〉〈1 line〉il, whome be vnderstādeth by the name of the Church, as appeareth in that which he spake before of these words of Christ Dic Ecclesiae: so* 1.7 that he woulde haue the Prince, subiect hir selfe to the Seniors of the Churche, and throw downe hir crowne before them, that is, to be con〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ent to be ruled and gouer∣ned, to be punished and corrected, to be excommunicated and absolued by their discre∣tion, and at their pleasure. This no doubt is his meaning, neyther can it otherwise be: for if this kind of gouernment be once admitted, the Prince must néedes be of some peculiar Church and congregation, and therefore subiect to the Seigniorie of that Churche, except it please master Pastor (who is the chéefe) and the rest of hys neighbours the parishioners, to elect the Prince into the Seigniorie, and make hym one of them: and yet must the Pastor be his superior, and haue authoritie to cal him to consultations, and to direct him in matters of discipline, and whether he will or no he must be ordered and ruled by the Pastor and most part of the Seniors. And yet now I remember my selfe, the Prince cannot be of the Seigniorie, for T. C. al〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ttle* 1.8 after graūteth that his Seniors be no lay men but Ecclesiastic〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ll: so that indeede the Prince must be a seruant no master a subiect no Prince, vnder gouernment no go∣uernoure in matters perteyning to the Church.

And least any man should thinke that this is but my collection, (though it be most* 1.9 true, and I will iustify it so to be) I haue she wed before that whiche M. Gualter affir∣meth vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. as he also doth vpon the. 12. Chapter of the same Epistle say∣ing, there be some which according to the example of the old and primitiue Church wold haue Seniors, and an Ecclesiasticall senate, that should haue authoritie ouer magistrates, if they at any time do not their duty. And in deede this is one of the chiefe causes why our men would so gladly haue a Seigniorie: for they would gladly be in hand with ma∣gistrates to make them stoupe and bow downe vnto them.

The third point is in this, that he would haue, the gouernment of the common wealth* 1.10 and the common wealth it selfe, framed to the Churche, and the gouernmente thereof, as the han∣gings are made fit for the house, whereby as it may seeme he would haue all monarchies ouerthrowen and reduced eyther to a popular or an Aristocraticall estate: for these two kinds of gouernment he only alloweth of, in the Church, as it appeareth by that which he hath thereof oltener than once or twise spoken before.

Now the lawes of man will beare this, I knowe not, but I am well assured the* 1.11 law of God will not suffer it. For Christe came not to ouerthrow kinds of gouern∣ment, and ciuill policie, neyther doth the Gospell dissolue kingdomes, for S. Peter sayth. 1. Epist. 2. Proinde subditiestote cuiuis ordinationi 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉umanae propter dominum, siue Reg 1.* 1.12 &c. Submit yourselues vnto all manner ordinance of man for the Lords sake, whether it be vnto the king, as to the superior. And so Paule. 1. Tim. 2. to the exhorte him to pray for* 1.13 kings, which he would not haue done if the state of a kingdome could not agrée with the state of the Church.

But I will not amplify this matter. Let such consider of it, to whome it doth spe∣cially perteine. This is your reason to proue that the gouernmente of the common wealth, ought to be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche: bycause there was a Church before there was a common wealth: but I denie the argumente: and your similitude (of house and hangings) dothe not proue it. All the Examples in the Scripture of common wealthes, being also the Churches of God, declare the con∣trary, neyther can you she we any state altered in thys manner, but only among the Anabaptists.

Of like weyghtis your other reasō, which is this: Good men, that is the Church, are as it were the foundation of the worlde, the common wealth is builded vpon that foundation, there∣fore the gouernmente of the common wealth must be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche. This gere is to subtile for euery body to vnderstand: but the argumente is without all fashion, and it is neyther true in matter nor forme. For how pr〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e y〈1 line〉〈1 line〉u

that good menne are the foundation of the worlde? The fyrste menne were grée∣uous transgressoures, the moste of them. The euyll menne in multitude and worldely prosperitie, haue from tyme to tyme in the worlde ouergrowen them. Moreouer, the Churche visible conteyneth bothe good and badde: and so doth the common wealth, and therefore it can not be sayde to be buylded of good menne more than of euill men. To conclude, if all this were true, yet dothe not the ar∣gumente followe. For the foundation giueth strength, but it giueth not the whole forme or fashion to that whyche is buylded vppon it. For a man maye make alte∣rations in his house, though he doe not once moue or stirre the foundation. And sure∣ly howesoeuer you will dallie off these Collections vppon your manyfest wordes, similitudes, and reasons, with some deuised interpretation and shifte (for it will stande you in hande so to doe) yet what occasion you haue giuen therby to the com∣mon people, and other that be contentious, to mislyke of this present state and go∣uernmente, wyse men can consider. And to tell you playne, excepte you haue some mysticall sense in them, (whiche I can not conceiue) I sée not howe they can stande with your alleagiance. I speake of the wordes as you haue vttered them: I wil not enter into the depth of your meaning: And I will hope the best vntil I vnderstand further of your mynde.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Esay. 49.
• (*) 1.2

  A dangerous doctrine.
• (*) 1.3

  An obscu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e, and deformed argument.
• * 1.4

  The ouer∣throw of the princes autho ritie conteined in the Reply.
• * 1.5

  Gualter.
• * 1.6

  The prince made subiect to Seniors by the Replyer.
• * 1.7

  Pag. 140. in the latter end.
• * 1.8

  Pa. 146. sect. 1.
• * 1.9

  Gualter.
• * 1.10

  The Replyer seeketh the 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣uerthrow of monarchtes.
• * 1.11

  Christ & the Gospell 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉o e∣nin〈1 line〉〈1 line〉les so 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• * 1.12

  1. Pet. 2.
• * 1.13

  1. Timo. 2.