The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

VVhether there vvere such as the Admonition calleth Seniors, in euery Congregation.

Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 138.. Sect. 1.

As though M. Doctor were at vtter defiaunce with all good order, and methode of writing,* 1.1 that which was giuen him orderly by the Admonition, he hath turned vpsidedowne. For where the Admonition speaketh first of the Elders, then of that which is annexed vnto them, which is the discipline (whereof excommunication is a part) considering that the subiect is in nature before that which is annexed vnto it, M. Doctor hath turned it cleane cōtrary, and first speaketh of excommu∣nication, and then of the Elders. I will therfore (that the reader may the easelier vnderstand that which is sayd) folow the order of the Admonition, and first of all speake of the Elders or Seniors which ought to be in the Churche, and in speaking of them, I muste call to remembrance that di∣uision which I made mention on before, that is, of those which haue care and gouerne the whole congregation, some there be which do bothe teach the worde and gouerne also: some which do not teache, but onely gouerne and be ayders in the gouernment, vnto those which do teache. This di∣uision is moste manifestly set forth in the Epistle vnto Timothe: where he sayeth, the Elders* 1.2 which rule well, are worthy of double honour, and especially those whiche labour in the worde and doctrine, where he maketh by playne and expresse wordes two sortes of Elders, the one whiche doth both gouerne and teache: the other which gouerneth onely. These therefore are the Seniors which are meant, whose office is in helping the Pastor or Bishop, in the gouernment of that par∣ticular Churche, where they be placed Pastors and Elders.

Io. Whitgifte.

It is no rare matter in handling any thing, first to entreate of that which is na∣tura posterius: and we sée it commonly so vsed by Logicians, who firste treate of that parte which is called Iudicium, then of the other which is called Inuentio, notwithstan∣ding Inuentio in nature is before Iudicium. But I will not spende incke and paper in answering so vayne a cauillation. The truth is, that I in mine Answere follow the order of the Admonition. For I proue that it was not the office of those Seniors to gouerne the Church, &c. bycause they had nothing to do with excōmunication being the chiefest discipline in the Church, seing the execution therof was committed to the Minister of the worde onely. So that I first take away authoritie frō their Seniors, & then answere the places which they abuse for the establishing of their authoritie.

My woordes be these: What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane, and Deacons had any thing to do in Eccle∣siasticall discipline? but all this is from the purpose. Your diuision of Seniors, though I know that it hath learned Patrones, yet do I not vnderstande howe it a∣greeth with the woorde of God: for if we consider the writinges of the Apostles, it will euidently appeare that Presbyter is vsually taken for Episcopus, or Minister, or Pa∣stor,* 1.3 as 1. Pet. 5. Presbyteros qui inter vos sunt bortor, qui sum & ipse Presbyter: &c. pascite. &c. The Elders which are among you, I besech, which am my selfe also an Elder. &c Feede the the flocke. &c. And in the Act. S. Paule calleth the same men Seniors and Bishops: and by Seniors meaneth none other than Bishops and Pastors, as it is euident in that place. Likewise ad Titum. 1. he sayeth, that Titus was lefte at Creta, vt con∣stituat

opidatim presbyteros, That he should appoynt Elders in euery citie. And declaring what qualities they ought to haue, he addeth: Oportet Episcopum immunem esse à crimi∣ne. &c. A Bishop must be vnreproueable: &c. Whereby it is manifest that he taketh them bothe for one.

The onely place that hath any shewe for the proofe of your distinction, is that,* 1.4 1. Tim. 5. Presbyteri qui bene praesunt, &c. The Elders that rule well are worthie double ho∣nour, specially they which labour in the worde and doctrine. Where although S. Paule maketh a distinction of Seniors, yet it is certayne, that vnder the name of Seniors, he doth comprehende such onely as be Ministers of the woorde or Sacra∣mentes.* 1.5 And I haue before sufficiently proued that the administration of the Sa∣cramentes may be committed to some, to whome the preachyng of the woorde of God is not committed. And this distinction of Ministers doth this place. 1. Timot. 5. very well iustifie: for vnlesse the Apostle S. Paule had ment, that of Ministers some preached, some onely ministred the Sacramentes, he woulde not haue sayde, Maximè qui laborant sermone & doctrina onely, but, qui laborant sermone & administratione Sacramentorum: for so shoulde he playnely haue declared that there were some Pre∣sbyteri whiche did neyther labour in Preaching, nor in the Administration of the Sacramentes. This same distinction of ministers is also iustified by that whiche the Apostle speaketh. 1. Corinth. 1. Non misit me Christus vt Baptizarem. &c. Mea∣ning* 1.6 bycause the worde was the greater, therefore he might not leaue the greater for the lesse. Nowe if all they that baptized had the gifte of preaching also, why might not and ought not they in like manner to say, Christe sent vs not to baptize, but to preach?

S. Ambrose writing vpon these woordes: Aduersus Presbyterum, &c. Agaynst an* 1.7 Elder receyue no accusation. &c. Which immediately follow the other, doth vnderstand thereby Ministers and Priestes onely, for he calleth them Vicarios Christi, Christes vi∣cars, and Antistites Dei: Gods Prelates. So doth M. Caluine in like manner expound* 1.8 the same woorde of Pastors, and Teachers. I know that in the exposition of this sen∣tence, Qui bene praesunt presbyteri, &c. he maketh two kindes of Seniors, but yet doth he Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 52. (where he purposely speaketh of Seniors) say that they were all preachers. Neyther do I sée any cause, why this woorde Presbyter shoulde not in both these places be taken in one and the same signification. Chrysostome also (if* 1.9 his woordes be well marked) vpon this place of Timoth. Presbyteri qui bene praesunt, &c. it will appeare that he doth not extende this woorde Presbyter to any other, than to Ministers of the woorde and Sacramentes.

The woordes of Ierome be playne, for expounding these woordes, Maximè qui la∣borant* 1.10 &c. He sayeth thus: Non dixit omnium qui habent verbum, sed qui laborant in verbo: Caeterùm omnes habentes praecipit ordinare. He sayeth not of all that haue the worde, but that labour in the worde: But he commaunded him to ordeyne, all that haue the worde. And surely I haue not read this woorde in any auncient Historie or Father, commonly taken in any other signification.

Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision.

Admonition.

In steade of Chancelours, Archdeacons, Officialls, Commissaries, Proctors, Doctors, sum∣moners, Churchwardens and such lyke, you haue to place in euery congregation a lawfull and godly Seigniorie.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 125. Sect. 1.

But I pray you do thus much for me, first proue that there was* 1.11 in euery cōgregation such as you call Seniors: when you haue done that, thē shew me that that office & kind of regimēt ought to be per∣petuall,

and not rather to be altered according to the state and condi∣tion of the Churche: last of all, that those Seniors were lay men as we call them, and not rather ministers of the worde, and Bishops. When you haue satisfied my request in these three pointes, then wil I proceede further in this matter.

T. C. Pag. 138. In the midst.

Now that it is knowne what these Seniors be, in entreating of them I am contēt to answere M. Doctor three requestes which he maketh in the, 125. page, where he desireth that one would do so much for him, as first to shewe that these Seniors were in euery congregation: secondarily, he will haue it proued that this regiment is perpetuall, and not to be altered: last of all, he desireth to know, whether these Seniors werelay men, and not rather ministers of the worde and Bishops. This last is a fonde request, and such as is already answered, but he muste be followed.

For the first therefore, which is that there were Seniors in euery congregation, although M. Doctor in the. 114. page, & in the. 132. page cōstrayned by Ambrose authoritie, confesseth it in plaine wordes, yet bycause he requireth it to be shewed and maketh a iest at those places, which are allea∣ged out of the scripture to proue it, some thing must be spoken thereof.

Io. Whitgifte.

You builde your platforme vpon marueylous slender proofes, & except the Reader will beleue your bare woordes, he shal finde great scarcitie of any other argumentes. For where haue you as yet proued your opinion of Seniors to be true? The place of S. Paule. 1. Tm. 5 doth not helpe you, being otherwise taken & expoūded of the aunciēt fathers: but I will follow your rase. The last question you say is fond & already answered: Answered as yet it is not, and the fondnesse of it will appeare, by the wisedome of your answere hereafter.

The woordes of Ambrose be, that the Synagogue, & after the church, had Seniors. &c.* 1.12 but he sayeth not that euery seuerall congregation had Seniors: for it was not so a∣mong the Iewes. Therefore it cannot be gathered of Ambrose, that euery particular parish had Seniors. Neyther is there any auncient Author that affirmeth it. Tou∣ching the hauing of Seniors in the Church, why it was then conuenient, and is not so now, I haue declared in the Answere to the Admonition.

Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 138. Somevvhat past the midest.

The first place is in the Actes, which is that Paule & Barnabas did appoynt by election. El∣ders* 1.13 in euery congregation, but it is (*) 1.14 not like they did appoynt diuerse ministers or Bishops, which preached in euery congregation, which were not to be had for such a number of congregati∣ons as were then to be preached vnto: therefore in euery congregation there were besides those that preached, other Elders which did onely in gouernment assist the pastors which preached. And what should we folow coniectures here, when S. Paule doth in the place before alleaged declare,* 1.15 what these elders are?

Io. Whitgifte.

If you haue no stronger place to cōfirme your Seniors by, than this, they will fall* 1.16 flat to the ground. For it is most certayne that Luke in this place by Presbyteros, doth only meane Pastors and Preachers of the woorde, as he doth also through the whole Actes speaking of Christians: and it is a straunge matter that you dare be bolde to grounde any point of gouernment or doctrine vpon so simple & slender coniectures. For what reason call you this: Paule & Barnabas did appoynt by election elders in euery congregation. &c. but it is not lyke they did appoint diuerse ministers or Bishops which preached in euery congregation, &c. therefore in euery congregation there were besides those that preached, other elders, &c. First I say, that this argument doth consist only vpō a vaine cōiecture, for it might be that the number of Preachers were suche, that euery congregation where Paule & Barnabas had to do, might haue mo preachers than one. But Lorde what moueth you, to play the Sophister in so serious a cause? & so to dally in a mat∣ter so manifest? for how can you conclude by any thing here spoken, that Paule and Barnabas did ordeyne mo than one Pastor or Presbyter in one congregation? for this that is sayde, that they ordeyned Elders or ministers in euery congregation, doth not im∣porte

that they ordeyned mo than one, in euery congregation, but that they ordeyned for diuers congregations, diuerse ministers, that is, for euery congregation a Pastor. Doth not the Apostle S. Paule ad Tit. 1. vse the like kinde of speache when he sayde* 1.17 vnto him, For this cause I left thee at Creta, &c. Vt constituas opidatim presbyteros, &c? Where it is manifest, as I sayde before, that he meaneth Bishops and Pastors: and yet his intent was not that Titus should appoynt for euery congregation many Pa∣stors. This is méere cauilling: but to cut of all other doubtes, M. Caluine is sufficient to determine this controuersie, who expounding this place of the. 14. Acto. doth vnder∣stand it of Pastors only & Preachers. His woordes be these: Presbyteros bic vocari inter∣pretor,* 1.18 quibus iniunctum erat docendi munus. I interprete those here to be called Presbyteros, vnto whome the office of preaching was committed. And a litle after: Now whereas Luke sayth that they were appoynted ouer seuerall churches, thereof may the difference betwene their office and the office of the Apostles be gathered, for the Apostles had in no place any certayne abiding, but went from place to place alwayes to found new churches: but Pastors were euery where addicted to their proper Churches. So saith Brentius likewise: Consti∣tuerunt* 1.19 per singulas Ecclesias Presbyteros, quos aliàs scriptura Episcopos, aliàs Pastores vocat. They appoynted thorough euery congregation Elders, whom the scripture sometimes calleth Bi∣shops, sometimes Pastors. So that this place of the Actes speaketh not one woorde of your Seniors. And therefore you cannot expound it by that in the. 1. Tim. 5. though it serued your purpose, as it doth not. For Luke (to my remembrance) no where in the Actes, doth take this woorde Presbyter for any other than such as haue authoritie, to preach the worde & minister the sacramēts, except he meaneth y^e elders of the Iewes.

Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision.

Admonition.

Let vs come now to the third part, which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline: the officers that haue to deale in this charge, are chiefely three, Ministers, Preachers or Pastors, of whom before. Seniors or Elders and Deacons. Concerning Seniors, not only their office, but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued. Theyr office was to (q 1.20) gouerne the church with the reste of the Ministers, to consulte, to admonish, to correct, and to order all thinges apperteyning to the state of the congregation.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 113. Somevvhat past the midst.

To proue that the office of Seniors was to gouerne the Churche with the rest of the ministers, to consulte, to admonish, to correct and to order al things apperteyning, to the state of the congregation, you alleage Act. 14. & the. 1. Corinth. 12. In the 14. of the Actes it is writtē that Paule & Barnabas ordeyned Elders at Antioche in euery Churche, but there is not one worde spoken of their office, & therefore that text serueth not your purpose. You haue alleaged this selfe same place twice before, to proue that no minister of the worde ought to be placed in any congregation, but by consent of the people, & that the election of ministers ought to be by the con∣gregation: now you alleage it to proue the office of your Seniors: can it both be meant of Seniors, and of the ministers of the worde, being as you say, distinct offices? will you thus dally with the scrip∣ture, and make it a nose of waxe (as the Papistes terme it) to wreast and wryth it which way you list? here you must needes confesse ey∣ther contradiction in your selues, or falsification.

T. C. Pag. 138. Tovvardes the ende.

But M. Doctor sayth that there is no mention made of the office of such an Elder: therefore that place maketh nothing to proue that there should be such Elders in euery congregation: so M. Doctor write, he careth not what he wryte. Belike he thinketh the credite of his degree of Doc∣torship, will giue waight to that which is light, and pith to that which is frothe, or else he woulde neuer answere thus. For then I will, if this be a good reason, say, that for so much as S. Luke doth not in that place, describe the office of the Pastor or Bishop which preacheth the worde, there∣fore that place proueth not that in euery congregation there should be a bishop or a Pastor. Besides

that M. Doctor taketh vp the Authours of the Admonition for reasoning negatiuely of the testi∣monie of all the Scriptures, and yet he reasoneth negatiuely of one only sentence in the Scripture. (*) 1.21 For the would cōclude, that for so much as there is no duety of a Senior described in that place, therefore there is no duetie at all, and consequently no Senior.

Io. Whitgifte.

The Authors of the Admonition Fol. 112. to proue that the office of the Senior was, to gouerne the Churche with the rest of the ministers, to c〈1 line〉〈1 line〉nsulte, to admonish, to correct and to order all thinges apperteyning to the state of the congregation, alleage the. 14. of the Actes, vers. 4. 1. Cor. 12. vers. 28. I declare in mine Answere how vnaptly these places are al∣leaged for that purpose, beyng not one woorde there spoken of any such office of Se∣niors: as it may appeare in the woordes themselues, beyng placed before. Nowe whether I make any suche reason as you frame in my name, or no, let the Reader iudge. The places be quoted in the Admonition to proue the office of Seniors, and not to proue that there were Seniors in euery congregation: and you being not able to salue that their vnskilfulnesse, make M. Doctor speake what you please, and shifte of the matter after your accustomed manner. I make not that conclusion you charge me with: if I do, set downe my woordes & conuince me: if I do not, who hath taught you to speake vntruly? my woordes I haue expressed: lette the Reader consider of them, and here also take a note of your truth and honestie.

Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1.

Afterwardes he sayeth, that for so much as this place hath bene vsed to proue a Pastor or Bi∣〈1 line〉〈1 line〉hop in euery churche: therefore it cannot be vsed to proue these Elders, so that (sayeth he) there must needes be eyther a contradiction, or else a falsification. The place is rightly alleaged for both, 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉he one and the other, and yet neyther contradiction to themselues, nor falsification of the place: but onely a miste before M. Doctors eyes, which will not let him see a playne and euident truth, which is, the worde (Elder) is generall and comprehendeth both those Elders which teach and gouerne, and those which gouerne onely, as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule.

Io. Whitgifte.

If it had these two significations, (as I haue proued that it hath not) yet that it is so taken in the. 14. of the Actes, I cannot reade in any writer, and I haue shewed M. Caluines and M. Brentius iudgements to the contrary, whiche in any wise mans opi∣nion are able to counteruayle your credite and bare deniall. And surely in that place it cannot be taken but in one and the selfe same signification, except you will say that the spirit of God speaketh ambiguously, and vseth aequiuocations. Which were to de∣rogate much from the simplicitie and plainenesse of the Scriptures. Wherefore the Authors of the Admonition in alleaging that text in some place to proue the election of Pastors, and in some other place to proue the office of Seniors, speake they know not what, and dally with the Scriptures, euen as you do in like manner, when you take vpon you the defense of so manifest a contradiction.

Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 114. Sect. 1.

In the. 1. Corin. 12. S. Paule sayeth, that God hath ordeyned in the* 1.22 Church first Apostles, then Prophetes, thirdly teachers, then them that do miracles, after that the giftes of healing, helpers, gouernours, diuersities of tongues: here is not one worde of the office of Seniors, neyther yet of their names: for this worde, gouernours, teacheth vs, that Christ hath ordeyned in his church, some to beare rule & gouerne, but whe∣ther one in euery congregation or moe: whether ministers of the worde or other: whether Magistrates or Seniors, it is not here ex∣pressed: howsoeuer it is, it maketh nothing for your purpose.

T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1.

And whereas M. Doctor sayth, that the place of the Corinths may be vnderstanded of ciuill* 1.23 Magistrates, of preaching ministers, of gouernours of the (*) 1.24 whole Churche, and not of euery particular Churche, and finally any thing, rather than that whereof it is in dee〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e vnderstanded: I say first that he still stumbleth at one stone, whiche is, that he can not put a difference betweene the Churche and common wealth: and so betweene the Churche offycers, whiche he there spea∣keth of, and the offycers of the common wealth, those whiche are 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉cclesiasticall, and those whiche are ciuill. Then that he meaneth not the minister whiche preacheth, it may appeare, for that he had noted them before in the worde (teachers) and last of all he can not meane gouernour of the whole Church, onlesse he shoulde meane 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 Pope, & if he will say he meaneth an Archbishop which gouer∣neth a whole Prouince, besides that it is a bolde speeche without all warrant, I haue shewed be∣fore, that the worde of God alloweth of no suche office, and therefore it remayneth, that it muste be vnderstanded of this office of Elders.

Io. Whitgifte.

Héere haue you manyfestly fals〈1 line〉〈1 line〉yed my booke, and greatly abused me. For I haue not these wordes, of gouernours of the whole Church, and not of euery particular Churche: neyther any thing sounding that way: the Reader hath my wordes before his eyes, let him consider whether you haue reported them truely, or no. Surely if there were nothing else, your ofte leasings might sufficiently conuince your doctrine of méere vanitie and forgerie.

But to returne to your Replie.

First, I can not put any suche difference betwixte the Churche and a Christian common wealth, the Church officers and christian Magistrates, that they may not be comprehended vnder this worde vsed in this place by the Apostle. For I vtterly renounce that di∣stinction inuented by Papistes, and maynteyned by you, whiche is, that Christian* 1.25 Magistrates doe gouerne, not in the respect they be Christians, but in the respecte they be men: and that they gouerne Christians, not in that they be Christians, but in that they be men. Whiche is, to giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in the Church of Christ, than to the great Turke. I am fully persuaded therefore, that there is no suche distinction betwixte the Churche of Christ, and a Christian common wealthe, as you and the Papistes dreame of. And therefore there is no cause why th〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 Apostl〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 maye not in this place, vnder this worde, Gouernours, comprehende as well ciuill Magistrates, as ecclesiasticall. The whiche notwithstanding, I doe not determi∣nately affirme, as likewise I haue not done in myne Answere: for I would be glad to learne, and to heare some reason to the contrarie. Master Gualter seemeth to 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉a∣uour this opinion, for expounding this place, he sayth: He comprehendeth seuenthly* 1.26 in this order, gouernours, vnder whome are conteyned ciuill persons, whiche in worldly matters dyd ayde all men, and had the hearing of causes, if any fell out amongst the Chri∣stians. And a little after: There is no neede of suche publikely nowe a dayes, seeing there are christian Magistrats, by whose authoritie all these thinges may be better prouided for. Moreouer the Apostle may meane in that place Bishops or Pastors, of whome he made no mention before. For you will not haue the office of a Pastor, & of a Doctor confounded, wherefore you forget your selfe in saying, that in this worde, teachers, he meaneth the minister that teacheth, that is, the Pastor, for of him I am sure you meane. Last of all, I haue no where sayde, that he meaneth one gouernour of the whole Church, neyther haue I written one worde tending to that ende, but this I say agayne, whe∣ther the Apostle meaneth one ruler in euery congregation, or mo, is not héere determined: and I sée no cause, as I haue sayde, whye in this place of th〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 Apostle, thys word, Gouernours, may not eyther signifie the Christian Magistrates o〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 Ecclesiasticall, as Archbishops, Bishops, or whatsoeuer other by lawfull autho∣ritie are appoynted in the Churche: neyther is there any reason to be shewed, why he shoulde rather meane your Seniors, than any other Magistrates. Sure I am that there be learned men whiche thinke that the Apostle in this worde dothe com∣prehende Ecclesiae gubernatores, tum ciuiles; tum ecclesiastic〈1 line〉〈1 line〉s: The gouernours of the Church

as well ciuill as ecclesiasticall. Howsoeuer it is, the place béeing doubtful, it can not esta blishe the office of your Seniors, as perpetuall.

Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision.

Admonition.

In steade of these Seniors in (r 1.27) euery Churche the Pope hath brought in, and yet we mayn∣teyne the Lordship of one man ouer sundry churches, yea ouer many shyres.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 115. Sect. vlt.

You alleage in the margent these words in the. 12. to the Rom. (He that exhorteth, let hym vvayte on exhortation: he that distribute〈1 line〉〈1 line〉h, let him do it vvith simplicitie: he that ruleth, vvith diligence: he that shevveth mercy, vvith cherefulnesse.) To proue that in steade of these Seniors in euery Churche, the Pope hath brought in, and we yet maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches. &c. I know not how this geare hangeth togither, or to what purpose you should alleage that place: it neyther proueth, that in euery Churche there was El∣ders, neyther that in place of them the Pope hathe brought in the the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches.

T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1.

The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayth of the place to the Romanes, where* 1.28 speaking of the offices of the Church, after that he had set foorth the office of the pastor, and of the Doctor, he addeth those other two offices of the Church, wherof one was occupied in the gouern∣ment onely, the other in prouiding for the poore, and helping the sicke. And if besides the manyfest words of the Apostle in both these places, I should adde the sentences of the writers vpon those places, as M. Caluine, M. Beza. M. Martyr, M. Bucer. &c. It should easily appeare, what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say, that it is to dally with the scriptures, & to make them a nose of waxe, in alleaging of these to proue the Elders, that al men might vnderstande, what terrible outc〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ies he maketh, as in this place, so almost in al other, when there is cause, that he should lay his hande vpon his mouth.

Io. Whitgifte.

The like answere do I make to that place also that I made to y^e former. M. Caluine* 1.29 sayth, that these words of the Apostle, Qui pr〈1 line〉〈1 line〉est in diligentia: he that ruleth with dili∣gence, may generally be extended ad praefecturas omne genus: to all kind of rule or gouern∣ment. And M. Martyr vpon the same words, sayth, that he doubteth not, multas fuisse in* 1.30 ecclesia praefecturas: that there were many gouernments in the Church. M. Beza likewyse although he sayth that the Apostle in this worde vnderstandeth presbyteros, yet he ad∣deth, qui & ipsi interdū doctrinae verbo praeerant: which also sometime dyd preach the word. M. Bucer sayth playnely, Est praeterea qui praeest, qui pascendi & regendi ecclesiā mun〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 accepit:* 1.31 Furthermore he doth rule, whiche hathe receyued the office of feeding and gouerning the Church. Wherby he must néedes vnderstand the Pastor, & not any vnpreaching Se∣nior. But what kinde of argument call you this? he that ruleth, must do it with dili∣gence, Ergo, there must be Seniors in euery parish. You should rather conclude thus, therefore those to whome God hath committed any office of gouernment, muste doe the same diligently and carefully.

So that although these learned mē do vnderstād this place of Seniors, yet do they* 1.32 think, y^t it may also be vnderstāded of other magistrates & gouernours: & therfore vpō their interpretatiōs you can not conclude any certentie of your Seniors. And M. Beza séemeth by y^e name of Seniors, to vnderstād the ministers of the word, that is, Bishops & pastors: and there is no doubt, but that y^e Apostle in this place doth admonish al to be diligēt in their office, that haue any kind of gouernmēt cōmitted vnto thē. Wherfore you may not restraine this to any one particular kind of gouernmēt, which y^• Apostle hath generally spoken of al: for that were in déede to dally with the scriptures, & to abuse them as the Papists do, yea to make thē a nose of waxe, as I haue sayd before.

Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2.

This I am compelled to write, not so muche to pro〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e that there were Seniors in euery Churche (which is a thing confessed) as to redeeme those places from M. Doctors false and cor∣rupt interpretations, for as for the proofe of Elders in euery congregation, 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉esides his confession, I neede haue no more but his owne reason. For he sayth that the office of these Elders in euery Church▪ was in that tun〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 wherin there were no christian Magistrates, and when there was per∣fecution, but in the Apostles times there was bothe persecution, and no christiā Magistrates, ther∣fore in their time the office of these Elders was in euery congregation.

Io. Whitgifte.

If this be a good argument, S. Paule ad Rom. 12. sayth, he that 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉uleth, must doe it di∣ligently: Ergo, euery particular congregation muste of necessitie be gouerned by Se∣niors: Or this, the Apostle. 1. Cor. 12. sayth, that God hath placed in his Churche go∣uernours, Ergo, euery parish must haue a Seigniorie: Or this, Paule and Barnabas in euery Churche ordeyned pastors, therefore in euery Church there must be a com∣pany of Seniors, to whome the whole gouernment of the parish is to be cōmitted: If (I say) these be good & sure argumēts, then haue I corruptly interpreted those places. But if these arguments be not sounde, if they haue no sequele in them, if they be a∣gaynst the practise of the Church euer since it had christian Magistrates, and long be∣fore, especially for suche Elders as you meane, if this kinde of gouernment in many reformed Churches be not thought conuenient, if it spoyle the Christian Magistrate of the authoritie giuen vnto him by the worde of God, and finally, if it bring in con∣fusion, then haue I truely interpreted those places, and according to my duetie and calling deliuered them from your corruptions. But the truthe of this matter shall more euidently appeare in that whiche followeth.

That whiche I haue sayde of the béeing of Seniors in euery Churche, I saye still: neyther is that the questiō, for I aske y^• question of your Seniors, not of Ministers, (whome I call Seniors) neyther dyd I meane that in euery particular parish, there was suche a Seigniorie, but in euery chiefe Citie, nor that it was at all tymes in persecution, and where there was no Christian Magistrate, but 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ometimes: ney∣ther that this kinde of gouernment muste be in suche times, but that it may be. And therefore you had done well, if you had not béene so sparing of your proofes, for all my graunte.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Of Seni∣ors.
• * 1.2

  1. Tim. 5.
• * 1.3

  Presbyter v∣sually taken for a minister. 1. Pet. 5. Act. 20. Tit. 1.
• * 1.4

  Two kindes of Presbyteri. 1. Tim. 5.
• * 1.5

  Tract. 9. cap. 1. the. 15. diuisiō. & Tract. 6. Cap. 1.
• * 1.6

  1. Cor. 1.
• * 1.7

  Ambrose. 1. Tim. 5.
• * 1.8

  Caluin. in. 1. Tim. 5.
• * 1.9

  Chrysost.
• * 1.10

  Ierome.
• * 1.11

  Certaine que∣stions deman̄∣ded to be pro∣ued.
• * 1.12

  in 1. Tim. 5.
• * 1.13

  Act. 14.
• (*) 1.14

  A 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• * 1.15

  1. Tim. 9.
• * 1.16

  The place Actes. 14. proueth no∣thing for Se∣niors.
• * 1.17

  Tit. 1.
• * 1.18

  Caluine.
• * 1.19

  Brentius.
• q 1.20

  Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 12. 28.
• (*) 1.21

  An vntruth, for he maketh no such conclu∣sion.
• * 1.22

  Go〈1 line〉〈1 line〉rnours in the church.
• * 1.23

  1. Co. 12.
• (*) 1.24

  A manif〈1 line〉〈1 line〉st vntruthe, for there is no such thing affir〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ed.
• * 1.25

  The Papists opinion of christian Ma∣gistrates.
• * 1.26

  Gualter in. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 Cor. 12.
• r 1.27

  Rom. 1〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. 8
• * 1.28

  Cap. 12.
• * 1.29

  Caluine.
• * 1.30

  Martyr. Beza.
• * 1.31

  Bucer.
• * 1.32

  The place Rom. 12. is generall.