A counterblast to M. Hornes vayne blaste against M. Fekenham Wherein is set forthe: a ful reply to M. Hornes Answer, and to euery part therof made, against the declaration of my L. Abbat of Westminster, M. Fekenham, touching, the Othe of the Supremacy. By perusing vvhereof shall appeare, besides the holy Scriptures, as it vvere a chronicle of the continual practise of Christes Churche in al ages and countries, fro[m] the time of Constantin the Great, vntil our daies: prouing the popes and bishops supremacy in ecclesiastical causes: and disprouing the princes supremacy in the same causes. By Thomas Stapleton student in diuinitie.

Stapleton.

I wil not charge M Horne, that his meaning is to ingraffe in the mindes of the subiectes, a misliking of the Queenes Maiestie, as though shee vsurped a power and autoritie in Ecclesiasticall maters, whereto shee hath no right, as he chargeth M. Fekenham withal: vnlesse perchance he were of Councell with the holy brotherhode of Geneua for the Booke, whereof we shall hereafter speake that spoyleth the Queenes Maiesty of al her authority as wel tēporal as spiri∣tual and vnlesse he hath in opē sermō at VVinchester main∣teined, cōtrary to the Quenes ecclesiastical iniunctions, such as would not reform their disordered apparel and that, after he had put his hand (as one of the Queenes cōmissioners) to the redresse of the saied disorder. And vnlesse he hath and

doth maītein many things beside, yea and cōtrary to the la∣wes and orders of the realm late set forth cōcerning maters ecclesiasticall, as it is wel knowē and to be proued he hath don as wel in the defending of the Minister of Durley, near the Manour of Bisshops Walthā refusing the saied order, as otherwise. But this may I boldy say, and I doubt nothinge to proue it, that in al his boke, there is not as much as one worde of scripture, one Doctour, one councell generall or prouincial not the practise of any one countrey throwgh owte the worlde counted Catholike, that maketh for such kinde of regiment, as M. Horne avoucheth, nor any one manner of proufe that hath any weight or pythe in the worlde to perswade, I wil not say, M. Fekenham but any o∣ther of much lesse witte, learning and experience. I say M. Horne commeth not ones nighe the principall matter and question wherein M. Fekenhā would and of right ought to be resolued. I say further in case we remoue and sequester al other proufes on oure syde, that M. Horn shal by the very same fathers, councels, and other authorities by him felfe producted so be ouerthrowen in the chief and capital que∣stion (vnto the which he cometh not nighe as a man might say, by one thowsande myles) that his owne company may haue iuste cause to feare least this noble blaste so valiantly and skilfully blowen owte of M. Hornes trompet shall en∣gender in the harts of all indifferent and discrete Readers, much cause to mistruste, more thē they did before the whol matter, that M. Horne hath taken in hande to iustifie.

Wherefore as it is mete in al matters so is it here also cō∣ueniēt and necessary to haue before thyne eyes, good Rea∣der, the state and principal question controuersed betwene the parties standing in variance: And then diligently to see,

how the proufes are of eche party applied, for the confir∣ming of their assertions.

There are therfore in this cause many things to be con∣sidered. Firste that Christe lefte one to rule his whole Churche in his steade from tyme to tyme vnto the ende of the worlde. Secondly that this one was Saint Peter the Apostle, and now are the Bisshoppes of Rome his succes∣sours. Thirdly that albeit the Bisshop of Rome had no such vniuersal gouernment ouer the whole, yet that he is and euer was, the patriarche of Englande and of the whole weste Church, and so hath as muche to doe here as any o∣ther patriarche in his patriarkshippe. Then that all were it, that he had nothing to intermedle with vs nor as Pope, nor as patriarche, yet can not this supremacy of a ciuil prince be iustified: whereof he is not capable especiallye a woman, but it must remayne in some spiritual man. Beside this the Catholikes say, that as there was neuer any suche presidēte heretofore in the Catholike Churche: so at this present there is no such (except in England) neither emonge the Lutherans, the Zwinglians, the Swenckfeldians or Anabap∣tistes, nor any other secte that at this daye raygneth or ra∣geth in the worlde. None of these I saye agnise their cy∣uil prince, as supreame gouernour in al causes spiritual and temporal: Last of al I say and M. Fekenham wil also saye that euen M. Horne him selfe in this his answere retreyteth so farre backe from this assertion of supreame gouernment in all causes spirituall and temporall, whiche is the state and keye of the whole question, that he plucketh from the prince the chief and principal matters and causes ecclesia∣sticall, as we shall here after plainely shewe by his owne woordes.

The premisses then being true, and of owre syde abun∣dantly proued, and better to be proued, as occasion shall serue, as nothing can effectually be brought against them, so M Horne, as ye shal euidently perceiue in the processe, stragleth quyte from al these points, besetting himselfe, all his study and endeuor, to proue that which neither great∣ly hyndereth oure cause, nor much bettereth his: and for the which neither maister Fekenham nor any other Catho∣like will greatly contende with him: whiche is when all is done, that Princes may medle and deale with causes eccle∣siasticall. Which as it is in some meaning true, so dothe yt nothing reache home to the pointe most to haue bene de∣bated vpon. And so is much labour vaynely and idlelye employed, with tediouse and infynite talke and bablinge, all from the purpose, and owte of the matter, whiche ought speciallye to haue bene iustifyed. And therefore this is but an impudente facing and bragging to say, that he hath proued the like regiment that we deny, by the Fa∣thers, by the Councels, and by the continual practise of the Churche.

Now it is worthy to see the iolye pollicy of this man, and howe euen and correspondent it is to his fellowe pro∣testants. M. Iewel restrayneth the Catholikes to .600. yeres as it were by an extraordinary and newe founde prescrip∣tion of his owne, embarringe al Later proufes. Yet he him selfe in the meane tyme runneth at large, almoste one thowsande yeares Later, shrynkinge hither and thyther, taking tagge and ragge, heretike and Catholik, for the forti∣fying of his false assertions. This wise trade this man kepeth also, and to resolue M. Fekenham, and setle his conscience, he specially stayeth him self vpon Platina, Nauclerus, Ab∣bas

Vrspergensis, Sabellicus, Aeneas pius, Volaterranus, Fabian, Polichronicon, Petrus Bertrandus, Benno the Cardinal, Durā∣dus, P. Aemilius, Martinus poenitentiarius, Polidorus Virgilius. And such lyke as he him self declareth otherwhere and in this place also confesseth. Nowe all be it the Catho∣liques refuse no Catholique writer, nor in this matter haue cause so to doe, yet in a matter of such importance, which beside the losse of al tēporal relief and besyde bodily death importeth also euerlasting damnation to the Catholikes, (if the case stande, as M. Horne and his fellowes beare vs in hande) reason would he should haue fetched the substance of his proufes much higher, yea within the .600. yeres wher∣vnto they strayne and binde vs: The which the Catholikes haue already performed against M. Iewel, not in the sub∣stance of the matter onely, but euen in the iustifying of the precise wordes, wherein M. Iewel hathe framed to himself by a foolish wylynes, or wylye foolyshnes, the state of the question I meane for the wordes of head of the Church, and vniuersall Busshop.

And what if M Fekenham nowe Syr would reuel with yow with lyke rhetorike, and require of yow to proue by the fathers writing within the sayde .600. yeares these ex∣presse words: Supreame heade, or gouernour in all causes spiri∣tual and temporal, to haue bene geuen and attributed to any ciuil Magistrate? Againe that the temporal men without, yea and against the consent of the whole clergy, altered the state of religiō called and vsed for Catholik throughout the whole corps of Christendome one thousande yeares before with such other articles, as concerne the regiment Ecclesi∣asticall that ye, in this your booke defende? Ye haue not, no nor ye can not, proue any such matter either by expres

wordes or by any good induction or consequēt in the first and former Fathers. And yet somwhat were it, if the Later Fathers might helpe yow.

But what an impudent face, as harde as any horne or stone haue ye beside your mere foly, to make the worlde belieue, that the authours aforesayde allowed such kinde of regiment of ciuill Princes, as the Catholikes now denye? Whiche assertion is so certainely and notoriously false, that M. Horne him self can not, nor doth not deny, but that his owne authours, were moste earnest fautours of the See of Rome. And howe then maye it ones be thoughte by a∣ny wise man that they shoulde allowe the doings of suche that forsake and abandon al maner of authority of that See, further then is the cōmen authority of al other Bisshops, yea and make the Bisshop of that Se•• to whome the sayde au∣thors attribute so large and ample authoritye and preroga∣tiue as may be, and whome they agnise as supreame iudge in matters of faith, a very Antichriste? These things be in∣credible, these things (as the prouerbe is) hange together like germans lipps: and so shal ye, good Readers, see the mat∣ter most euidently fal owte. And therefore, M. Horne, where you haue of late openlye sittinge at a table in Lon∣don (as I am credibly informed) bragged, that ye haue quyte cōfuted the Papists with their own papistical Doctors, how true this is, I trust it shall by this answere plainely appeare.

Notes

• The prin∣cipal que¦stions cō∣cerning Ecclesia∣stical regi¦ment, vvhich M. Horn doth not on•• tou∣che.
• No such regiment as M. Horne defēdeth among al the sectes sauing in England.
• M. Horne himselfe denieth this supre¦macie in al causes ••cclesia∣stical.
• The vne∣uen dea∣ling of the prote¦stants.
• A chal∣lenge to M. Horn.
• M Horns tale incre¦dible,
• M. Horn's late bragge.