A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond

The .xxviii. chapyter

¶The messenger eft sonys obiected agaynst thys / that we shulde byleue y^• chyrch ī any thyng where we fynd y^e wordes of scrypture semīg play∣nely to say the contrary / or byleue y^• olde doctours interpretacyons in any necessary artycle / where they seme to vs to say cōtrary to y^e texte. shewīg y^t we may {per}ceyue y^• scripture aswel as they might. & y^e answer of y^e author {pro}uīg y^e authorite of y^e old in¦terpters & y^e infallible authorite of y^e chirch ī y^• god techith it euery truthe requysite to y^e necessite of mānys sal¦uacyō. which he {pro}ueth by a deducey ō {per}tely depēdīg vppō naturall resō.

IT semeth me quod he that all thys goth well that we shulde byleue the chyrch as chryst / as longe as they say as Cryst sayth / for so¦me thynkethe ment our lorde. ¶But now yf they tel me talis of theyr owne wherof Cryst neuer spake worde nor mencyō made therof in holy scrypture I may thā say w^t y^e {pro}phet Hieremie / nō mittebā prophetas et ipsi currebant. Non loquebar ad eds et ipsi propheta∣bant / those prophetis (quod our lord) ranne forthe of theyre owne hed and I sent theym not / And {pro}phecyed of theyr owne heddes whā I spake nothyng to theym. And than how myche may I more say so / yf they say me a thynge wherof Cryste or holy scrypture sayth the contrary / shall I byleue the chyrch aboue chyrste? were that a good hu∣mylyte to be obedyent more to menne than to god? More ought I me thyn∣keth to byleue god aboue spekynge in hys holy scrypture hym selfe / than all the olde fathers yf they make a glose agaynste the texte. Nor they doo nott theym selfe for theyre opynyons say & wryte / that they haue theym by inspy∣racyon / or by reuelacyon / or by myra∣cle. But by wysedome / studye / dyly∣gence / and collacyō of one texte wyth a nother. By all whych meanys men may now perceyue the sentēce of scryp¦ture as well as they myght than. And yf ye wyll peraduenture say that grace holpe the••m whych I wyll well agree / than wyll I say agayne that goddys grace is not so farre worn oute yet / but y^• yt may as well helpe vs as yt holpe theym / and so may we be for the ryght vnderstandynge of scrypture equall wyth theym / and peraduenture one ace aboue theym. wherby whan we {pro}∣ceyue that they went wrong and other after theym / shall we than call yt hu∣mylyte so to captyue & subdue our vn∣derstandynge / wherby god hath hap∣pely geuen vs lyght to perceyue theyr errours / y^t without thank geuyn him therfore we shall so sett hys gyfte at nought / that we shall byleue theym byfore hym selfe / & tell hym y^t hym self bad so•• •• therfore me thīke where y^• old doctours or the holy chyrche telleth me

the tale that god doth / ther he byddeth me byleue theym. But where god say∣eth one thynge in scrypture and they tell me a nother / yt thynkith me that I shuld in no wyse byleue theym. ¶well quod I than in sūwhat ye saye ye will bileue the chirch but not in all. In eny thynge bysyde scrypture ye wyll not / nor in the interpretacion of scrypture ye wyll not. And so where ye sayed y^t ye byleue y^e chyrch in sūwhat / in very dede ye beleue y^e church ī right nought. For wherein wyll ye byleue yt yf ye by¦leue it not in the interpretaciō of scrip¦ture? For as touchynge the texte ye by¦leue the scrypture self and not y^e chirch ¶Me thynketh q he the text ys good ynough and playne ynough nedynge no glose yf yt be well consydered & eue¦ry parte compared with other. ¶Hard yt were quod I to fynde eny thynge so playne that yt shulde nede no glose at all. ¶In faythe quod he theye make a glo••e to sū textys / y^t be as playne as yt is y^• twise two make four. ¶why quod I nedeth y^t no glose at all? ¶I trow so quod he. Or els the deuyll ys ō yt / ¶I wysse quod I / and yet though ye wole bileue one y^t wold tell you y^t twise two gāders made alway foure gese / yet ye wolde be aduysed ere ye byleued hym that wolde tell you y^t twyse two geese made alway foure ganders. For ther∣ī might ye be deceyued. And him wold ye not byleue at all that wolde tell you that twise two gese wold alway make foure horse. ¶Tut quod he thys ys a mery mater. They must be all y^t twyse twayne alway of one kynde. But gese and horse be of dyuerse. ¶well quod I than euery man that ys neythere gose nor horsese••th well y^t there is one glose yet. But nowe quod I the geese and y^e ganders be both of one kynde and yet twyse two gese make not alway foure ganders. ¶A swete mater quod he / ye wote what I meane well ynough. ¶I thynke I do quod I•• but I thinke if ye bryng yt furth yt wyll make a nothere glose to your texte as playne as youre texte ys / and ye wyll in all holy scryp∣ture haue no glose at all. And yet wyll ye haue colla••yon made of one texte w^t a nother / and shew how they may be a¦greed to gether as thogh all that were no glose. ¶ye quod he but wold you y^t we shulde byleue the chyrch yf yt se••t a glose that wyll in no wyse agree wyth y^e text / but that it aperyth playnly that the texte well consydered sayeth clene the contrary? ¶To whō dothe y^t apere quod I so playnly / whā yt aperyth one to you / and to the hole chirch a nother? ¶yet yf I se yt so quod he / though ho∣ly doctours & all the hole chyrch wolde tell me the contrarye / me thynkythe I were no more bounden to bileue them all y^t the scrypture menith as they take yt / than if they wolde all tell me that a thynge were whyte whych I se my self ys blak. ¶Of late quod I ye wolde by¦leue y^e chirch in sum thynge. And now not onely ye wold byleue it in nothīg / but also where as god wold the church shulde be your iudge / ye wold now be iudge ouer the chirche. And ye wyll by your wyt be iudge whyther the chyrch in the vnderstādynge of holy scripture y^t god hath wryten to hys chyrche / do iuge a right or erre. As for your white & blak / neuer shall it be y^t ye shall se the thīg blak y^t all other shal se white. But ye may be sure y^t yf all other se it white & ye take it for blak / your eyene be sore deceyuyd. For y^e chirch wyll not I thīk agree to call it other than yt semyth to thē. And mych maruayle were yt y•• ye shuld ī holy scripture se beter thā y^e old

holy doctors and Crystys hole chyrch. ¶But furste quod I ye must consyder that ye and I do not talke of one doc∣tour or twayne / but of the consent and comen agrement of y^e old holy fathers. Nor that we speke not of the doctryne of one man or two in the chyrch / but of of the comen consent of the chyrche. we speke nott also of any sentēce taken in eny text of holy scrypture / wherby ry∣syth no dout or question of eny necessa¦ry artycle of oure fayth or rule of oure lyuynge / For in other bye maters may there be taken of one text .x. sensys par¦aduenture and all good ynough wyth¦out warātyse of the best / But we speke of suche two dyuers and contrary sen∣sys taken / as yf the tone be trew the to¦ther must nedys be false / and that as I say concerning some necessary poynte of oure faythe or rule of oure lyuynge / whych is also dependyng vppon fayth and reducyble therto. As yf one wolde boldely breke his vow for y^t he thought that no man were boūdē to kepe any. Sych poyntys I saye lett vs consyder they be that wee speke of. And thys re∣membryd betwene vs / than wyll we sū¦what se what your sayng doth proue. I shall not myche nede quod I to styk wyth you in dysputīg by what meanis the scrypture ys vnderstanden / syth ye be agreed wyth nature and dylygence the grace of god must nedys go / or els no dylygence or help of nature can pre¦uayle. Nor I wyll nothyng deny you / but that god may and wyll also / gyue hys grace now to vs as he gaue of old to hys holy doctors / if there be as mich towardnes and no more let or impedy¦mente in our selfe than was in them. I wyll also graūt yow that we may now by y^e same menis by whych they might than / vnderstand the scripture as well as they dyd than / and I wyll not mic•• styk wyth you for one a••e better. And were it not for the synnys that we sink in / we myghte parcase vnderstande yt beter by quater tredeuce / hauīg theyr labours therin & oure owne therwyth. But syth I am so gentyll to graūt you so many thyng{is} / I trust ye wyll graūt me thys one / that yf any such poynt of our fayth as god wolde haue mē boun¦den to beleue / they dyd vnderstande y^e scripture one way and we a nother / be¦yng the tone to the tother so clene con∣trary y^t yf the tone were trewe y^e tother must ned{is} be false / ye will thā graunt•• I say y^t either they erre or we. ¶That muste nedys be quod he. ¶ye wyll also graunt quod I that in such poyntis as we speke of / the erroure were dampna¦ble. For we speke of those poyntys one¦ly / to the beleefe wherof god wyll haue vs bounden. ¶I graunt quod he. For dampnable were yt in suche case to be¦leue wrong. And wrong shuld they or we beleue if they or we beleued a wrōg artycle / because they or we thoughte y^t the scrypture affyrmyd yt. And as dāp¦nable were yt and yet mich more / if we beleuyd a thyng wherof we beleuyd y^t the scrypture affyrmyth y^e cōtrary. For thē beleuyd we that the scrypture were false. ¶Thys is q I very well sayde. ••But for the more playnnes let vs put one exāple or twayn. And what poynt rather than the ar••ycle towchynge the equalite ī godhed of our sauiour cryste w^t hys ••ather? For yf the cōtrary belef•• were trew / than were this alway dam∣nable & playne idolatry. ¶Uery trothe quod he. ¶May not quod I the tothe•• example be the matter that we haue in hand / cōcernīg saynt{is} reliques / imag{is} & pylgrymag{is}. whych thyngys yf yt be (as ye say many reken yt) ydolatrye /

thā ys yt yet worse to do therin as we do / than yf our byleefe were wrong in the tothere poynte. And that as myche worse / as the sayntys or the ymagys eyther / be worse than y^e holy manhode of Christe. ¶That ys q he very trew. ¶Thā q I let the furst point alone be¦cause therein wee be all agreed / & speke of the second yf tholde fathers toke the scryptures one way & we the contrary. Though yt myghte be y^t we were able to vnderstād the scryptures as well as they / yet yf they so vnderstode theim y^t thei thoght this kīd of worship not for beden but cōmaūdid & plesaūt to god / & we new men ō the tother syde thoght yt vtterly forbeden & holden for ydola∣try / the tone {per}te did not in dede vnder¦stand the scrypture ryght / but were in a dampnable erroure. ¶That wyll no mā deny q he. ¶I doute not now q I but y^t your self seeth very well how ma¦ny thīgys I might here lay for them to proue you y^t they erryd nott so. Furste theyr wyttys as mych as our new mē∣nys / theyr ••ylygēce as grete / theyr eru¦dycyon 〈◊〉〈◊〉 theyr study as faruent / theyr deuocion hoter / theyr nōber farr greter / theyr tyme cōtynued lenger by many agys parseueryng / the contrary oppynyōs in few & those alway sone fa¦dyd / they taken alway for catholyke / y^e cōtrary {per}te for heretykys. Here myght I lay you the holynes of theyre lyfe & y^e plentye of theyr grace well apperynge therby. And y^t our lorde therfore ope∣nyd theyr eyen & suffred & causyd them to se y^e trothe. And albeyt he vsed therī none open myracle nor sensyble reuela¦cyō / wherof as ye say they none allege or pretēd for the profe of theyr opyniōs in theyr interpretacyons of holy scryp¦ture / yet vsyd he the secret su{per}naturall meane / by whych his grace assystent w^t good mē y^• labour therfore / by mociōs insensyble to them self / inclynyth theyr assent vnto the trewe syde / & that thus the old holy fathers dyd in the poynt y^t we speke of & in such other / parceyue y^e ryght sēce of holy scrypture so farforth at the lest wyse / as they well knew y^t yt was not cōtrary to theyr beleefe. And here myghte I lay you also y^t yf yt had bene otherwyse & y^t they had therin dā¦nably bene deceyuid / than liuyng & dy¦ēg in dampnable errour they coud not haue beene sayntys / as god god hathe shewyd thē to be by many a thousand miracle both ī theyr lyuys & after theyr dethys. wyth thys might I also lay & very well cōclude / that syth those holy doctors and the chyrch / be (as by theyr bookys playnely apperethe) all of one fayth in thys poynt & such other / y^t ther by well apperyth y^t the chyrche is in the treuth / & ys not in the vnderstandyng of y^e scrypture y^t spekyth of y^e mater eny thing deceyuyd / but they clerely decey¦uyd y^t do vnderstand those text{is} of ho∣ly scrypture to the contrary. These thī••gys as I saye and yett many other mo myght I lay. But syth ye dyd your self put the chyrch & them both in one case / & so they be in dede / I wyll rather {pro}ue you the treuth of them by the treuth of the chyrch / than y^e treuth of y^e chyrch by the treuthe of thē. & so semyth me good reason. For surely syth they were but mēbers of hys chyrch / god had hys spe∣cyall cure vppon them moste especyall for the profyte of his churche / by whose hole corps he more settyth than by eny member therof / saynt / apostle / euange¦lyst / or other. And therfore must I yet ask you agayn whether the chyrch may haue eny dampnable errour in y^e fayth by mystakīg of scripture or otherwise. ¶That ys q he sumwhat hard to tell. ¶Now quod I sumwhat I meruayle that ye remember not y^t your self hath

agred all redy / y^t these word{is} of Christ spoken vnto Peter I haue prayd that thy fayth shall neuer fayle / were not ō∣ly ment by the fayth ī Peter hys owne persō / but also by the fayth of y^e chyrch. For to hym was yt spoken as hed of y^e chyrche? ¶yes I remember q he ryght well y^t I agreede yt. But I remember also y^t notw^tstanding mine agremente ye were content y^t we shulde enserch a¦gayn and agayne y^e matere otherwyse bysyde / wherin myne agrement shuld not binde me. ¶Lo quod I that had I forgottē agayne But let it thā alone for y^e whyle and tell me this. Dyde not Chryste entende to gader a floke & con¦gregacyon of peole y^t shulde serue god and be hys specyall people? ¶yes quod he that ys very trouthe / For so sayethe playne scrypture of Christe in sondry placys. As where the fathere of heuen sayeth vnto Chryste in y^e psalme / Pos∣tula a me & dabo tibi gen••es heredita∣tem tuam / aske of me and I shall giue the paynym people for thyne enhery∣taunce. & many other placys. And els vndowtedly hys hole cōmīg had bene in maner frustrate & in vayne. ¶That people quod I whych shulde be ā ēhery¦taunce ••yd he entende shulde endure for hys owne dayes ōly while he lyued her••/or els that y•• shulde go forth & cō¦tynue long after. ¶Nay quod he that shall cōtynue whyle the worlde lasteth here tyll domys daye / & after in heuen eternally. ¶Shall this peple q I haue amonge theym the knowlege & vnder∣standynge what he wolde they shulde do to please god wythe all? ¶ye q he. ¶why••her shall they quod I haue thys knowlege for a while ī the bygynnyng & than lese yt / or shall they haue it styll as longe as they contynue? ¶Here he bygā a litle to stagger. why quod I cā ye call th•• hys peple any lenger yf they lese y^e knowlege how to serue hym and please hym? yf they for sloth to do theyr dutye as slake seruauntys sūtyme do / yet may they mend & do beter a nother tyme. But yf they lese the knolege of theyre dutye / t••ā wot they nere which way to mend / As he that knoweth for¦nicacyon for syn / may fall by frayletye to fornycacyon. But syth he knowethe yt for nought / thoughe he sinnid more in y^e doyng than yf he had not knowen the prohybycyon / yet doth y^e knowlege gyue hym warnynge and occacyon of repentaunce and amendment / whych must nedys lack yf he had lost y^e know∣lege. ¶Uppō this he graūted y^t it must nedys be that thys peple muste nedys haue alwaye the knolege how to serue and please our lorde / or els they ceaced to be hys peple. ¶Is not this peple q I called y^e chirch? ¶yes quod he. ¶Thā the chyr••h quod I alway hath & ••lway shall by your reasō haue the knowlege & vnderstādīg / how god may be seruid and plesed. ¶Trouth q he ¶Is quod I that knolege fully had w^tout the kno¦lege of such thing{is} as god bīdeth vs to bileue? Nay q he. what if we knew thē ī such wise q I as we could rehe••se thē ō our fīgers ēdys & yet byleuyd theym not to be trewe / wolde thys knowlege serue? ¶In no wyse q he. for yf ye by∣leued the to be false / thogh ye so knew thē y^t ye could reherse theym by rowe / ye coud take no warnīg by thē to plese & serue god with thē / which is the caus•• wherfore the chyrch shulde of necessyt•• know thē. This is q I v••ry well sayd. thā sith ye graūt y^t y^e chyrch shall euer ē¦dure / & y^t it coud not ••dure w^tout y^e kno¦lege of sich thīg{is} as may plese god / nor thos thīg{is} can be all known if knolege laked of those thīg{is} y^t god byndeth vs to bileue / nor y^e knolege of thē eny thīg sarue to the knolege & warnīg geuē vs

of goddys pleasure but yf we not only can tell theym but also byleue theym / whyche bylyefe ye graunte ys callede fayth / of thys yt cōsequently foloweth that the chyrche alwayes hathe and all ways shall haue the knowlege and by∣lyefe of such thyngys as god wyll haue yt boundē to byleue. ¶That is trouth q he because god hath lefte holy scryp∣ture to y^e chyrch / and therin ys all / and y^e chyrch byleuyth that to be trew. and therfore therin & therby hath the chirch all that warnyng and lernyng of god∣des pleasure that ye speke of / wythout whych yt cā not endure. ¶what if god quod I had lefte y^e scripture to y^e chirch lokked vp in a close cheste / and that no man shuld loke therin / wold that haue seruyd? ¶ Nay {per}de quod he. ¶what if he had lefte hyt open & wrytten in such wyse that no mā coud rede yt? ¶That were all one quod he. ¶what yf euery man quod I could rede yt and no man vnderstād yt? ¶As lytle wold yt serue quod he as the tother. ¶Than quod I syth yt seruyth the chyrch to lerne god¦dys pleasure therī / and that can yt not as ye graunte your self but yf y^e chyrch vnderstande yt / yt foloweth of thys y^t the chyrch vnderstandeth it. And thus euery way for the fayth and knowlege of goddys pleasure yf yt be as ye saye all knowen by the scrypture & no parte otherwyse / yet alway to this poynt ye bryng yt in the ende / y^t the chyrch hath the sure knowlege thereof. And than yf y^t be so / ye shall not as ye lately sayd ye shulde / in eny dyuerse text{is} of scrip¦ture seming to make a dowtouse arty¦cle of our fayth / and to brynge in ques¦tyone what we be bounden to byleue / after ye haue red ī scripture all that cā be red / and herd on both sydes all that can be sayd / than take whyche parte se¦meth to your self moste probable. Nor yf ye stand styll for all y^t in a dowt / thā after your bytter prayers made to god for hys grace & gyde ī y^e choyse / go take you the tone parte at aduenture and cleue therto / as though ye were sure by your confidence in god / that his grace had inclined your assēt to y^e surer syde. But sith he hath shewyd yow playne∣ly by reasone that he hathe geuyn hys chyrch in all such thyng{is} knowlege of the trouthe / ye wyll take the sure way and put your self out of all perplexitie / yf in the poynte yt self & the scryptures that touch it / ye take for the truth that way that the chyrch tecythe you therī / how so euer the mater seme bysyde vn¦to your selfe or to eny man els.