A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond

¶The .xxvii. chapyter

¶Thauthor prouyth that god hath cōmaūdid vs in all thyng necessary to saluacion to gyue ferme credence and full obedyence vnto his church. And a cause why god wyll haue vs bounden to byleue.

THat is trothe quod he if this may appere. But where shal it appere that god cōmaun¦dyth vs in all such thyngys to beleue y^e chyrch? For furste me thynkyth y^t were a very strange maner of cōmaū••yng. For of the church be all we that shulde as ye say bee by god cōmaunded to be¦leue the chyrche / And all we to gether make the hole chyrch. And what reasō were yt than to cōmaund vs to beleue the chyrche. whych were no more in ef∣fect / but to byd vs all beleue vs all / or eche of vs to beleue other. And then yf we fell at dyuers oppyniōs / why shuld the tone parte more beleue the tother / thā be beleuyd of the tother / sith bothe the partys be of the chyrch and make y^e chyrch amōg them? sauyng that alwey

that parte semeth to byleue whych best and moste clerely can alledge y^• scryp∣ture for theyre opynyō. For the wordes of god must breke y^e stryfe. He is onely to byleued & hys onely sonne of whom him self commaunded. Ipsum audite / here hym sayd the father at the tyme of hys baptysme. And therfore the mā y^• ye speke of whome god sendeth me to / and whom he byddeth me here and by¦leue / ys our sauyour Cryst onely / and not eny congregacyon of men. whose wordes yf we byleue byfore y^e wordes of god / and in the s••ede of the scripture of god put our truste and con••ydence in y^e doctryne & ordynaūce of y^e chyrch / it were happely to be fered / lest we fall in the reprofe that ys touched in y^e gos∣pell where is sayed / in vayne wurshup they me wyth the doctryne of mē / and where our sauyour also reproueth the scrybes & the pharesyes saynge vnto theym / wherfore do you breke & trans∣gresse the cōmaūdemēt of god for your tradycyons. ¶I trust q I yet at laste we shall agre. But myche a do me thī∣keth it ys to cū to it. But syth we must as ye say and treuth yt ys / here our sa∣uyour Chryste and byleue hym / ys yt ynough to here hym and byleue hym / or be we bysydes that also bounden to obay hym? ¶To obay hym also q he. For els were he better vnherd. ¶well sayd quod I. But whyther are we boū¦den to here hym and obay hym in som thynges or in all thinges? ¶In all thī∣ges quod he wythout excepcyō that he cōmaūdeth vs to do. ¶Thā yf Chryst quod I bydde vs byleue and obay hys chyrch / be we not boūdē so to do. ¶yes quod he? &Than may we quod •• no more dowt to be trew what so y^• chy••ch byddeth vs byleue / than the thynge y^t our sauyour hym self byddeth vs byle∣ue / yf he bydde vs here hys chyrche as his father bad vs here hym. ¶That is trouth q he yf he so do / but me thyn∣keth yt were a straunge byddyng as I sayd to byd eche of vs of bileue other. ¶It seme•••• not q I so straūge a thīg to Seynt Poule. For he meruelouse effectually besecheth Chrysten people to agree to gether all in one mynde / and in the fayth to tell one tale / suffe∣ryng no sectis or scismes amōg theym. whych agrement & consent cā neuer be where no mā geueth credēce to other. But amōg Christē people yt w••ll sone be / yf euery man geue credence to the chirch. ¶But yet q he syth all be of the chyrch of dyuerse parties / whych shall byleue whych? ¶ye take y^• quod I for a grete dowt & a thīg very {per}plex / whych semeth me very playn. For eyther fi••st y^• chyrche hath y^e treuth & byleue all one way tyll som one or som fewe begynne y^t chaunge / and than though all be yet of y^• chyrch tyll som by theyr obstynacie be gone oute or put oute / yet ys yt no ••owt but yf I wyll byleue y^• chyrche I must byleue theym y^t styll byleue that way whych all y^e hole byleued byfore / or els yf there were eny thynge y^t was {per}aduēture such / y^t in y^• church somtym was dowted & reputed for vnreueled & vnknowē / yf after y^t y^e holy chryche fall ī one cōsēt vppō y^e tone syde / eyther by cōmē determynacyō at a generall coū¦sayle or by a {per}fyte perswasyō & bylyefe so receyued thorough christendō y^t the Chrystē peple thīk it a dāpnable errour to byleue y^e cōtrary / thā yf eny wold af¦ter y^t take y^e cōtrary way were it one or moo / were yt fewe or many / were they lerned or vnlerned / were they ley peple or of y^e clergie / yet cā I nothīg dowte whych {per}••e to bileue yf I wyl bileue the chirch. ¶y^t is trouht q he. But ye {pro}ue

me not yet that god hath boden me by∣leue the chyrche. ¶ ye sumwhat inter∣rupted me quod I with your other sub¦tylty / by whych ye wold yt shold seme an absurdytye to bydde vs byleue the chyrch / For as mych as therby ye sayd yt shulde seme y^t we were cōmaunded nothyng els but eche to byleue other / and than in dyuerse opynyons taken we coud not wyt whyche parte shulde byleue whych. wherof syth I haue she∣wed you the contrary and remoued y^e blocke oute of the way for stumblyng / we shall I thīk sone se y^t tother poynt / that Cryst cōmaūdith vs to byleue his chyrch. For as hys father sayd of hī self here hym / so sayd he of hys chyrch whā he sent it abrode to be spred forth. For whā he had gathered hys chyrch of hys apostles & hys dyscyples and theruppō set theym forth to preche / sayed he not vnto theym / he that hereth you hereth me? Dyd he not also cōmaunde y^t who so wolde not here the chyrche shulde be reputed and taken as paynyms and publycanys? ¶That was q he where men wold not amende theyre lyuyng. ¶was yt not q I generall where a mā wold not amīde eny dampnable faw∣te? ¶yes q he. ¶Is mysbelefe quod I none suche? ¶yes mary q he. ¶Than ys quod I the chyrche hys Iudge vppō hys byleue / to shew hym whyther it be trew or false. ¶So yt semeth quod he. ¶Hath hys lyuyng quod I no thynge a do wyth fayth? ¶How meane you y^t quod he? ¶Thus quod I as yf Luther late a frere and hauyng now wedded a Nūne / were cōmaunded to amende hys lewde lyuyng and put away that harlot whome he abuseth in cōtynuall inceste and sacrylege vnder y^e name of a wyfe / and he wolde say y^t he dyd well ynough / and that theyr vowes coude not bynde theym / were he not boundē to byleue y^e chyrche and obay therto as well cōcernīg hys bylefe as his lyuīg? ¶yes veryly quod he. ¶Thā appereth yt quod I that we be by Cryst cōmaū∣ded to here / byleue & obay y^t chyrche as well in maters of fayth as of maners. whych thīg well appereth also by y^• our lorde wold y^• who so were dysobedyēt shulde be taken as a paynyme or a pu∣blycane. Of whych .ii. y^• tone offēded ī mys••yleue the tother in lewd lyuīg. & thus yt appereth y^t not onely Cryst ys the mā y^t ye be sēt vnto & cōmaūded be god to byleue & obay / but also y^e chyrch ys the {per}sone whom ye be by Cryste cō∣maūded to here and byleue and obay. And therfore yf ye wyll in fayth or ly∣uīg or a voydīg of all dāpnable errour y^t ye myght fall in by mysse vnderstā∣dīg of scriptur take a sure & vnfallyble way / ye must in all these thynges her••/byleue and obay the chyrch / whyche ys as I say the persone whom Cryst sen∣deth you to for the sure solucyon of all suche doutys / as to the man in whose mouth he speketh hym selfe and the ho¦ly spyryte of hys father in heuī. ¶And surely thys ys mych to be marked. For yt ys the perpetuall order whyche our lord hath contynued in the gouernaū∣ce of good men frome the bygynnyg / y^e lyke as our nature fyrst fell by pryde to y^e dysobedyēce of god w^t inordyna∣te desyre of knowlege lyke vnto god / so hath god euer kept mā ī humilytye / straynīg hym w^t y^e knowlege & cōfessyō of hys ygnoraūnce / and byndīg hym to y^t obedyēnce of bylyue of certayn thīges wherof his own wit wold verely wene y^t cōtrary. & therfore are we boūdē not ōly to bileue agaīst our own resō y^• poī∣t{is} y^t god sheweth vs ī scriptur / but also y^t god techith his chirch w^tout scriptur &

agaynst our owne mīde also / to gyue dylygent heryng / ferme credence / and faythfull obediēce to y^t chyrch of chryst / concernyng the sence & vnderstādyng of holy scripture. Not dowtīg but sith he hath cōmāded his shepe to be fedde / he hath prouyded for theym holesome mete and trewe doctryne. And that he hath therfore so farre inspyred the olde holy doctours of his chyrch w^t the lyght of his grace for our instruc••yō / that y^e doctrine wherin they haue agreed and by many agys consēted / is y^t very true fayth and ryght way to heuyn / beyng put in theyr myndes by the holy hād of hym / qui facit vnanimes ī domo / y^t ma¦keth y^• chyrch of Cryst all of one mynd.