The debellacyon of Salem and Bizance

The .xxi. chapyter.

IN hys .xxi. chapy∣ter begynnynge in the .lxxxiiii. lefe, bycause I sayd in myne apologye y^t there be fewe par∣tes in his boke of di¦uysyon, that shall yf they be well con¦sydered, appere so good at length, as they seme to some men at the fyrste syght and at superfycyall readynge: he prouoketh me to shew what other fawtes I fynde therin. And than to prycke me forwarde, he bryngeth forth two or thre thynges, whych he sayeth it semeth moste lykely that I shold meane. But wherfore it shold be moost lykely that I sholde meane those thynges / therof sheweth he no thynge / but leueth folke occasyon to thynke, that hys owne mynde mys∣gea••th hym in those thynges. For me hath he neuer herd make any bu∣synes

of them.

¶And afterwarde in the lefe .91. agayne he prouoketh me to the same. And there he recyteth how many cha¦pyters of his I medle not withall / wherin he myghte haue made a shor∣ter worke yf he wolde haue let them stande that I towched not / and haue spokē of them onely that I towched. For they were very few, as he that was very vnwyllynge to haue tow∣ched any one at all, saue for the mych euyll that couertely was cloked in them, And for the withdrawynge of that cloke that men myght the better se what it ment: I towched the fyrste chapyter for a shew, and the .vii, and the .viii, for that they labored to the great decay of the catholike fayth, to put awaye or chaunge in to wurse y^e moste specyall good lawys, bothe of the whole chyrche and of this realm, that haue bene made and obserued longe for the preseruacyon therof.

And the fyrst chapiter was in effecte nothynge ellys, but by false slaunde¦rouse surmyses agaynst the ordyna∣rys (as though they myshandeled men for heresye) a shrewde prepara∣tiue to it. And therfore leuynge his other tryfles alone: I answered in effecte onely these, of whych so mych harme myght growe. whych thyng{is} yf they had ben out of his boke, all y^e remanaunt good and bad togyther, sholde haue gone forth for me / and therfore yet so shall they: For I pur∣pose not to embuse my selfe with cō∣futynge of euery fawte that I fynd in euery mannes boke. I sholde haue than ouer mych a do.

¶Nor I wyll not dysprayse or de¦praue any thyng that I thynke good eyther in his boke or in any mannes ellys. And therfore I haue in myne apology sayd expressely, that he saith some thynges wel. But for as mych as there be many thynges nought to:

I geue therfore the reader warnyng not to walke awaye with theym ouer hastely, but rede them with iudgemēt and aduise them well / and not byleue euery spyryt, but proue whyther it be of god or not / and that that is good take / and that that is euyll, lette it go to the deuyll.

¶I well allow therfore and lyke not a lytell the great good mynde of Salem toward the vaynquysshyng of the great turke / and conquerynge of the holy lande, wherin he spēdeth the tother thre chapiters of his boke. But I mysse lyke mych agayn, that as he wold dylate the fayth, by force of sworde in farre cuntres hense: so he laboreth to chaūge and take away the good & holsome lawes, wherby the fayth is preserued here at home.

¶I lyke also meruelousely well, that suche poyntes of the catholyke fayth as heretykes nowe labour to

destroye, as prayenge to sayntes, pyl¦grymage, and purgatory, & the sacra∣mentes, and specyally the blessed sa∣crament of the awter, wherof in the lxxxvi. lefe he speketh so well, that as helpe me god it dyde me good to rede it: this I saye lyketh me merue¦lousely well, that the ryght fayth of these poyntes he confesseth so well and so fully for his owne person. But the better opynyon that I haue of his owne person therin, the more sory am I to se, y^t his bookes are by some shrewde counsayle handeled in such wyse, as if they were folowed / wolde make the faythe decaye and peryshe in many other folke. Thys is the greate thynge that in his bokes greueth me.

¶For as for the poynt that he spe∣keth of in the lefe. 91, of that that the prestes shold eate no flesshe fro quin¦quagesime to Easter: I take it for a mater as small as he dothe I.

But than he asketh me wherfore in y^e .xxxi. chapiter of myne apology be∣gynnyng in the .175. lefe, I make so greate a mater of it. Who so lys••e to reade the chapyter, shall se that I wrote it not all in vayne, nor shewe my selfe vnwyllynge that the prest{is} sholde do it neyther, though they be not bounden to it. But the lesse that the weyghte of the mater was / the more cause this mā gaue me to speke therof. For the more was he to blame to put that and other suche smal ma∣ters as that is, for causes of so great a diuisyon, as he surmyseth y^t this is. This was lo y^e cause that made me to speke therof. whych cause this mā gaue hym selfe / and therfore nedeth not to meruayle as he doth, wherfore I spake therof.

¶And therfore thus haue I good readers now replyed to euery chapy¦ter of his boke by row, saue onely y^e last thre which go about a good viage

into the holy lande, a great way farre of fro me. And I haue not leped to & fro, now forwarde, now bakward, in such maner as he playeth in his an¦swere made vnto me, without eyther order kepte or cause apperynge wher¦fore, saue onely the cause that euery man may spye, that he wold not haue it sene what places he lefte vntow∣ched. Which is in a maner the moste parte of all togyther, that in my boke towched the thre chapyters of his. And I haue on the tother syde not lefte any one pyece vnproued, that my selfe spake of before, or that any thynge perteyned vnto me.

¶And therfore where as in the be∣gynnyng of the .xxii. chapyter, Sym∣kyn Salem geueth hys sentence vp¦pon the sayde answere to the sayde apologye, and alloweth the sayd an∣swere well: me thynketh that yf he consydered not onely how myche he hath lefte vnanswered, & how mych

of his owne wordes vndefended, whyche he nothynge hath towched at all / but ouer that how febly he hath defended those thynges that he hath towched here: Salem beynge indyf¦ferent, had ben like to haue allowed it but a lytell.

¶For settynge asyde for the whyle all the remanaunt, yf he go but to the very pryncypal poynt alone, wherin he laboreth to chaūge and put awaye those good lawes / y^e chaūge wherof (suche as he deuyseth) the decaye of the catholyke fayth and the encreace of heresyes wolde folowe: in that poynt alone, I say we laye agaynst hym, the comen cōsent of this realm. And he layeth his own reasō agaynst it. We laye agaynste hym the consent of y^e generall coūsayle. And agaynst this he layeth his owne reason. We lay agaynst hym the generall appro∣baciō of all chrystē realmes. And a∣gaynst this he layeth his own reason.

And what is hys owne irrefragable reason that he layth agaynst all this? Surely no more as you se, but that by those lawes an innocēt may some∣tyme take wrong. Agaynste this rea∣son we lay hym, that yf this reason sholde stande, than agaynst malefac∣tours there could no law stande. We laye agaynst it also that by his deuy∣ces yf they were folowed, by the en∣creace of heresyes many innocentes must nedes take mych more wronge.

¶To thys answereth he, that he wyll not answere that. And nowe when Salem seeth that he can not an¦swere that, & seeth that al the weigth of the mater hangeth vpon that: than Sym Salem geueth sentence that he hath answered very well. But su¦rely yf suche answeryng be well / I wote not whyche way a man myght answere yll

¶And therfore where as Symkyn Salem sayth, that yf this good man

wyll, he wyll cause a frende of hys answere all the remanaunt: he may do this good man a myche more frēd¦ly tourne, yf he make hys frende an∣swere this better fyrst, that this good man hath answered allredy. How be yt yf they lyste thus to geue ouer thys, and assaye what they can saye better to any other pyece: let theym a goddes name hardely go to for me. And yf they saye any thynge metely to the mater, I wyll put no frende to payne to make them answere / but at leasure cōuenient shal answere them my selfe. And where they say well / I wyll not let to saye so. And where they say wronge / I wyll not lette to tell theym. But on the tother syde yf they go no better to worke, nor no ne∣rer to the mater, then thys man hath done: I shall peraduenture let them euen alone / and lette them lyke theyr wrytynge theym selfe, and no man ellys.

¶But now lettynge passe all specy¦all y^t poyntes: I shall answere y^e ge¦neraltyes y^t thys good man speketh of. Form in the lefe .xc. these are hys wordes.

And now shall I saye somwhat farther in a gene∣ralytye, as mayster More hathe done / and that y•• t••is: that al that I speke in the sayde treatyse, was to appeace this diuysyon / and not to begynne any, ne¦•••• cōtynue yt. And therfore how they can saue theyr conscyence / that saye I dyd rather intende a dyuysy∣on then agrement, I can not tell / theyr one conscy∣••nce shall be iudge. And I entended also somwhat to m••••e that myght be occasyon to put awaye abu∣sy••••••, euyll examplys, and heresyes: and not to ••••cr••ase theym or maynteyne theym I dare boldely saye.

¶ To this I answ••re, that yt ney¦ther was nor is my mynde, that men shold thynke y^t he ment e••yl him self, as I haue in many plac{is} of myn apo¦logy testified. But verily I thought & yet thinke, y^t by some wyly shrewis his boke was so mysse handeled, that yt ment nought, though he ment wel. For where as he sayeth that wyth hys boke of dyuysyon, all hys pur∣pose was to appease dyuysyon: I

wyll not contende wyth hym vppon hys owne mynde. But surely thys wyll I saye, that yf I hadde ben of the mynde to sow and sette forthe dy∣uysyon: I wold haue vsed euen the selfe same ways to kyndle yt, that he vsed (as he sayth) to quenche yt.

¶ Thenne goeth he farther and sayth.

And farther as mayster More knoweth better then I, mentire est contra mentem ire, that is to say to lye ys when a man sayeth agaynste hys owne mynde / & in good fayth in all that treatyse, I speke nothynge but that I thought was trew.

¶To thys I answere, that in dede suche a thynge I haue redde, and as I remembre in Aulus Gellius. Whyche thynge though I haue now no leasure to loke for: yet two poyn¦tes I remembre therof. One that yt ys there mentiri and not mentire / whyche infynytyue mode in what boke of grammer this good mā hath founde, I can not tell. I was aferd yt had ben ouersene in the prentynge.

But I haue loked the correccyons, and there fynde I no faute founde therin.

¶The tother poynte I remembre that there ys a dyfference putte be∣twene m••ntiri & mendacium dicere, that is as we myghte saye / betwene hym that wyttyngly lyeth, and hym that telleth a lye wenyng that it were trewe. And here yt is sayde, wittyng¦ly not to tell a lye, perteyneth to a good man. And not to tell a lye vn∣ware, is the parte of a wyse man. And surely syth the scrypture sayeth that he that shortely byleueth is ouer lyghte: thys good man to byleue so many lyes so soon, and wyth so ma¦ny some sayes to set theym forthe in prent, to the rebuke and slaunder of the spyrytual iudges, and make men wene they mysse handeled men for heresyes, though the mannys inno∣cent mynde made the synne the lesse, yet was the thyng at the lest no lesse,

then a very great lyghtnesse, ye and also a great profe towarde the re∣profe of his wordes that folow next, where he goeth farther thus.

And farther I wyll acertayne mayster More a•• farre as in me is, that I neyther hadde any sotle shrewes counlayle, ne any euyll counsayle at the ma¦kynge of the sayde treatyse, whyche he calleth the boke of dyuysyon (as ys sayde before)

¶To thys I answere, that all be yt thys good man and I be at myche varyaunce here in dyuerse thynges: yet for the good and playne professy∣on of the catholyque faythe that I fynde in hym, in good fayth I mych better loue hym then in that poynt to beleue hym. For yf he sayde therin trew, then were all the fautes onely hys owne / in whyche as I haue of∣ten sayde, I myche rather thynke, that some sotle shrewes haue decey∣ued hym.

¶And besyde sondry other thynges that lede me so to thynke, one very stronge thynge ys thys, that euery

man maye well se by hys boke, that all suche as haue resorted to hym to tell hym any suche thynges, as vn∣der some sayes he put oute agayne, haue alwaye tolde hym euyll / and ne¦uer told him good. And of misse hand¦lynge for heresyes haue euer tolde hym lyes, and neuer tolde hym trew. For where as the punyshement for heresyes hathe ben very lytle any where, saue euen here at hande, and here but ryght done to them, and that wyth myche fauour to: they haue made hym good sely soule byleue, that ordynaryes mysse handle men for heresye in maner thorow oute the realme.

¶Also where as such slaunderouse clamour hath bene sondry tymes of late in al y^t euer complayned, playnly proued false before the kynges most honorable coūsayle, not one man cam to tell hym nothynge therof, nor not one some say therof wryten in all his

boke / and ouer this where as myne owne self haue playnly told hym ••he same thyng{is} in myn apologye by wri¦ting: yet (which most meruayle were of all, saue for such wyly shrewes) euery man may well se that he neu••r redde yt. For he sayth not one worde therto. And therfore yt is eth to per∣ceyue what so euer hym selfe saye whych is loth of his goodnes to put other folke in faute, y^t there be some wyly shrewes so myche about hym, y^t they neyther suffer hym any thyng to here but y^t them self lyst to tel him, nor yet any thinge to rede, but where them selfe lyste to turne hym.

¶And nowe syth I haue here an∣swered these generalytyes of hys: I wyll not longe encumbre you with any generaltyes of myn own, but ge¦nerally I wold y^t al were well. And so helpe me my sauiour & none other wise, but as I wold wishe none here¦tike one halporth harme, y^t had clerely

lefte hys heresye, and were well tu••¦ned to god. But on the tother syde, who so sticke styl therin: rather wold I wyshe hym sorowe to his synne, wherby there are many folke many tymes amended, then prosperousely to procede in hys myschyefe to the losse of his own soule and other men∣nys to. And towarde that poynte, a∣gaynste all male factours in the spyry¦tualtye and the temporaltye to, wold I wyshe all good folke of bothe par¦tes to agre, and eche loue other wel, and stycke faste to the fayth, whyche were like sore to decay by the chaūge of these good lawes that thys good man goeth aboute to destroye. For whose vnreasonablenesse therin the better to be perceyued, wyth the daū¦geour and parell that wolde ensewe theron: I wyll desyre you good rea¦ders to resorte to myne Apologye / and begynnynge at the lefe. 270, rede vnto the lefe. 287. wherin you

shall I truste be well and fully satys¦fyed. And vnto all that euer ys in all that spoken: thys man hath no∣thynge sayd.

¶And where as in confutynge the fautes that thys man fyndeth in the suyte ex officio, and the lawes made agaynste heretyques, I haue vsed some examples of the comen lawe, whyche this man hathe labored to proue vnlyke / and I haue therin cle∣rely confuted hym a freshe: yt maye peraduenture happen that he wyll now take a nother waye therin, and saye that in such poyntes those spyry¦tuall lawes maye be reformed, and those temporall to.

¶How be yt yf he so saye, but yf men forgette what hath ben sayd be∣fore: ellys shall they se that his say∣enge wyll not serue hym.

¶For fyrste as I haue sayed ofter then ones all redy, the same thynges

in the comen lawe be not to be chaun∣ged. For yf they be: there shall come therof more harme thanne good. And yf yt happen one innocent to take harme by the lawe: there shall fyue for one take more harme by the chaunge.

¶More ouer yf we sholde for that cause chaunge those tēporall lawes, that ys to wytte bycause some inno∣cent maye somtyme take harme by them: we must chaunge by the same reason, all that olde vsed lawe that a man maye be arrested and remay∣ne in pryson tyll he fynde suertyes for the peace, vppon the bare othe of hys enmye that sayth he is a ferde of hym. For by that law may some tyme an innocent take harme to. And yet muste that lawe stande yf we do well. For ellys shall there by the chaūge, mo innocentes take more harme.

¶What trouble haue there many men in Walys, by that they be com∣pelled to be bounden to the peace, bothe for them selfe and for theyr ser¦uauntes and other frendes to? And yet is the order there so necessary that in many lordshyppes yt maye not be forborne.

¶And surely yf we fall to chaun∣gynge lawes vpon y^e symple groūd: we muste then chaunge so many that it wolde not be well.

¶Bysydes thys yf men sholde re∣forme and chaunge a lawe, bycause that an innocent maye somtyme take harme therby: then must they when they haue chaunged it, chaunge yt yet agayne / & after that chaunge, yet chaunge yt agayne / & so forth chaūge after chaunge and neuer cease chaun¦gynge tyll the worlde be all chaun∣ged at the daye of dome For neuer can all the wyttes that are in yt, make

any one penall lawe / suche that none innocent may take harme therby.

¶How be yt yf a newe lawe were drawen and putte forthe to be made agaynst any such myschiefe as wold els do mych harme: good reason yt were to take an excepcyon to the byl, and shewe that innocent••s myghte be myche harmed by thys poynt or that / and therwyth prouyde the re∣medye and putte it in the lawe, and stoppe as many such gappes as then coulde be spyed. Ye and yf after the law made men foud notable harme, that good folke were myche wron∣ged by it / and the lawe suche that it eyther myghte be forborne, or els the meanes founde to be chaunged to the better: good reason wold it to make prouysyon for it.

¶But surely to come forth as thys man cometh here, agaynste so good lawes, so well made, and by so great

authoryte, so longe approued thorow the whole corps of chrystendome, in thys realme ratyfyed specyally by parlyament, and that vppon a profe not wythout great grounde & cause, euer synnys founden so profytable for preseruacyon of the fayth, and proued se necessary vpon thys man∣nes own deuyces, that without great encreace of heresyes they can not be forborne / nor neuer can be chaunged but eyther to the strayghter or ellys to the wurse: to come now forth and for appeasynge of dyuysyon, so we fyrste a slaunder that maye make dy∣uysyon, and than labour to chaunge those lawes, vpon none other groūd but onely that an innocent may happe to take harme by meane of false iud∣ges, and than proue not any wronge done, but by false some sayes onely, agaynste whyche false some sayes the trouth is proued contrary, bothe

by iuste examynacyon before the kyn¦ges counsayle, and ouer that playne¦ly by thys one poynte also, whyche no man can denye, that there ys no lawe prouyded agaynste so great a cryme, by whyche lawe lesse people haue in thys realme be punyshed: therfore to come nowe thus as thys good man dothe, and procure the chaunge of these lawes, so olde, so good, and so necessarye, and to make theym more easy, wherwyth here∣tyques wolde war bolde, whyche thynge hym selfe (as you se) deny∣eth not in the ende: what is this good chrysten readers, but to procure that the catholyque chrysten fayth, myght fade and fall awaye?

¶And yet as for thys man hym self to tell you for conclusyon what I thynke / all be yt there are as you se ryghte euyll and perylouse thynges in hys bokes, wyth deuyces that

wolde make heresyes encrease: yet syth he professyth so playnely the ca¦tholyque chrysten faythe, and by his exhortacyon also towarde the con¦queste of the holy lande, declareth hys mynde zelouse and ••eruent to¦warde yt, I rather byleue though hym selfe therto saye naye, that in those thynges whyche he wryteth so perylouse and so noughte, some wy∣ly shrewes begyle the good innocent man, than that hym selfe in hys own mynde, meane all that harme.

¶But yet for as myche as in thys poynt, without syght of mānes hart we can but go by gesse / & who so goth by gesse, may be deceyued (For (as hym selfe sayth) a wolfe maye loke symply lapte in a shepes skynne) I shall therfore trust the best, and leue the trouth to god. And concernynge suche euyll wrytynges, syth yt must nedes be, that he wrote them eyther

deceyued by some shrewys, or ellys but of hym selfe / I can no more do for hym, but hartely praye for hym thus. If shrewys deceyue hym: god sende theym shortely from hym. If he wrote them of his own mynde: thanne syth the thynges be noughte, he wrote theym eyther of euyll wyl, or of ouersyght. If he wrote theym of malyce / god geue the euyll man more grace. If he wrote theym of folye: god geue the good man more wytte.

¶And thus I beseche our lorde sende vs euerychone, bothe the spy∣rytuall and the temporall to, bothe wytte and grace to agre to gether in goodnes, and eche to loue other, and eche for other to praye / and for those y^• of both partes are passed into purgatorye, and there praye for vs as we praye here for theym, that they and we bothe thorowe the me∣rytes of Chrystes bytter passyon,

maye both wyth our own prayours, and the intercessyon of all holy sayn∣tes in heuyn, auoydynge the eternall fyre of hell, haue pyty powred vpon vs in the very fyre of purgatorye, whyche in those two places veryly burneth soules. And fynally for our fayth and good workes, whych his grace (workynge wyth the wylles of thoses y^e wytte haue) ge¦ueth eche good man here: good geue vs in heuen to gy¦ther euerlastynge glorye.