An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.

CHAP. I. About the first occasion of the Conference, in which is shew∣ed, that Master Fisher did not seeke it, or prouoke his Aduersaries by any challenge vnto it, nor did intend to haue it so publike, as by his Aduersaries fault it proued (Book 1)

The Protestant Relator of this Conference, setteth downe the occasion in these words.

EDWARD BVGGS Esquire, about the age of 70. yeeres, being lately sicke, was solicited by some Papists then about him, to forsake the Protestant Faith, telling him: There was no hope of saluation, without the Church; there was no Catholike Church but theirs; and to beleeue the Ca∣tholike Church, was the Article of his Creede; and by it, could no other Church be meant but the Church of Rome, because it could not be proued by al the Protestants in the Kingdome, that they had any Church before Luther.

This Gentleman being much troubled in his mind with these and the like suggestions, who al his life time had beene, and prosessed himselfe a Religious Protestant, became now more sicke in mind then body.

After his recouerie, being much troubled in mind with these former suggestions of the Popish Priests, he repayred to Sir Humfrey Lynd Knight; who, by rea∣son of his alliance, and long acquaintance with him, gaue the best satisfaction that he could to his said Cou∣sin

Master Buggs? who seemed to take content in such his Conference, and to be wel satisfyed by him, in al points.

But the Popish Priests and Iesuits not desisting to creepe in further, where they had once made a breach, perseuering stil in questioning him, where his Church was before Luther.

Whereupon hee repayred againe to Sir Humfrey Lynd, and required some further satisfaction of him, concerning that demand. And thereupon Sir Humfrey Lynd told him, it was first in Christ and the Apo∣stles,* 1.1 consequently also conspicuous in the Primitiue Church, for 600. yeeres after Christ, after which time some errors crept into the Church, as diseases into a mans body, so that the Church which Luther & we ac∣knowledge, was in general the same Christian Church, as his body was the same substantial body being now wel and lately sicke, though different in the quali∣ties, &c.

How farre this parcel of the Relation is true or false, I wil not stand to discusse, as not yet knowing how, or by whom, the aforesaid Gentleman came first to doubt of his Church, and consequently of his Religion; yet I haue some cause to doubt, that it is not altogether true, especially in that he saith:

The Popish Priests and Iesuits not desisting to creepe in further where they had ••••ce made a breach, perseuering stil in questioning him: where his Church was before Luther?

For I doe not thinke that many (if any at al) Priests or Iesuits, did first put this doubt into the old Gentleman his head, nor perseuered in questioning him about it. And for Master Fisher in particular, I know certainly that hee neuer saw this old Gentleman, much lesse did he speake to him, in any mat∣ter of Religion, til that time, when Sir Humfrey Lynd

first met Master Fisher. The which meeting is mentio∣ned in the Protestant Relation, saying thus:

And after his returne to London, the said Sir Hum∣frey Lynd going to Master Buggs his house in Drury lane, to vsit him, found Master Fisher the Iesuit there, where after some debates about Religion, and the vi∣sibilite of the Church, Master Fisher called for Pen and Inke, and set downe this question in terminis, thereby adding vnder his hand, that he would answer vpon it negatiuely, as challenging and expecting Op∣posers; deliuering also the Paper into the hands of the said Sir Humfrey Lynd; who vpon view of it, answe∣red: That it was an Historical question, and not so proper for disputation. But Master Fisher vrging it, Sir Humfrey told him: If he would goe to D. Whites, where formerly he had beene, the said D. would easi∣ly resolue those doubts, which being refused by the Iesuite, the said Sir Humfrey did then returne him his Paper againe, and so left him.

In this parcel some thing is omitted, some thing mis∣reported, as wil appeare by this which followeth:

A certaine Catholike Gentleman, comming to Master Fisher, told him: That the aforesaid old Gentleman was desirous to heare D. White and him dispute; and there∣fore desired to know, whether he would think it conue∣nient to vndertake a meeting with D. White. M. Fisher told him expresly, that hee neither might, nor would make any challenge to D. White; but, saith hee: If D. White doe challenge me, I wil not refuse.

And some reason M. Fisher gaue to the Gentleman, to let him see, that it was not fit that he should be a Chal∣lenger in such a businesse: whereupon the Gentleman, for feare of mis-deliuering M. Fishers mind, did intreat M. Fisher to deliuer his owne answer to a Protestant

Knight, Sir Humfrey Lynd, who was imployed by the said old Gentleman, to moue D. White to come to such a meeting. M. Fisher hauing some acquaintance in the house where the old Gentleman was, said: He would that night be there, and if the Knight would come, he should heare the same answer. So M. Fisher came, and Sir Humfrey (being aduised by the said Catholike Gen∣tleman, of M. Fishers intention to be there) also came. And after some speeches, the question was moued, Whe∣ther M. Fisher would speake with D. White about the vi∣sibilitie of the Church? He answered as before: That he would not challenge D. White; but if D. White would challenge him to treate of that matter, he would not refuse. It was answered: That it was not meant in the nature of a challenge, but to haue a quiet meeting, to satisfie the old Gentleman: and so Sir Humfrey wished M. Fisher to set downe the questions. Then M. Fisher hauing heard wherein the Gentleman did chiefely doubt, set downe these two questions:

Whether there must not bee in al ages a visible Church, of which, al sorts must learne that one infallible faith which is necessary to saluation?

Whether the Protestants Church was in al ages visible, especially in the ages before Luther: and whether the names of such visible Protestants in al ages, may be shewed out of good Authors?

The first question being read before Sir Humfrey and the old Gentleman, and some others, they said: That it was out of question, that such a visible Church as the questi∣on mentioned, must needes bee granted; whereupon M. Fisher tooke his Pen, and subscribed to the first que∣stion, these words: It is granted. Which being supposed; M. Fisher read the second questi∣on,

and was contented it should be the onely Question, for so Sir Humfrey desired; who also bad M. Fisher choose, whether he would be the Disputer or Answerer. M. Fisher said, It would be requisite both to dispute and answer. Yet Sir Humfrey vrging him to choose the one or other part, M. Fisher said, I wil answer; and so he tooke his Pen, and writ in the Margent briefely, what answer he meant to make to the whole Question, and said: I wil answer, that it was not; to wit, so visible as the Question required.

This Paper, in which these Questions were, Sir Hum∣frey tooke, but with intent, that onely one, that is, the second, should be disputed on. Then question being made about the Place, Sir Humfrey named D. Whites house. M. Fisher said, he had no reason to goe to the Doctors house; in regard, the last time he was there, it was giuen out, and made a general report, That M. Fisher would haue killed D. White in his house. And therefore, saith M. Fisher, I wil not goe, vnlesse himselfe inuite me: but if he inuite, I wil goe. Sir Humfrey doubted, that D. White would not inuite M. Fisher: and so, for want of agreeing about the Place, M. Fisher verily thought, that no meeting would be at al: yet he did not take a∣gaine the Paper, in which the Questions were; but ey∣ther left them with Sir Humfrey, or the old Gentleman: yet without any minde at al, to make any challenge, as he had more then once expressed.

About two dayes after (saith the Protestant Rela∣tor) M. Buggs repayred to Sir Humfrey Lynd, and en∣treated him (for his satisfaction) to giue M. Fisher a meeting, saying: That M. Fisher had againe told him, That he would maintaine what he had set downe; and that our Diuines could not proue our Church visible, before Luthers time. Whereupon Sir Humfrey told

him, That D. White and D. Featly were to dyne with him on Fryday following; and if, after Dinner, M. Fisher would come thither, with foure, or six at the most, they should be admitted for his sake and his Wifes, who (by reason of such sollicitation) were troubled in their mindes; and satisfaction should be giuen, as occasion required. And these were the true causes of the meeting.

What to say to this Parcel, I know not, because it was priuate, betwixt Sir Humfrey and the old Gentleman. But there were other more remarkable passages, omitted by the Protestant Relator, which I thinke fit to set downe. As first, That M. Fisher comming to the old Gentleman, the next day, or next but one, after the Que∣stion was set downe; found him stil desirous, to haue the meeting goe forward: and then it may very wel be, that M. Fisher might say; He would maintaine what he had set downe, and that Protestant Diuines could not proue the Protestant Church visible, before Luthers time. But what in particular he said, he doth not remember. Onely he is sure he made no challenge; and so the old Gentle∣man did wel vnderstand: who told M. Fisher, That it was intended onely to be a friendly and a priuate mee∣ting at Sir Humfrey his owne house: and that D. White would bring with him one to assist him, as M. Fisher should bring with him one to assist him; and beside, some foure more, whom they thought good, to be Wit∣nesses; and two Writers, to set downe on each part what was said: and that Fryday next should be the day.

M. Fisher hearing this equal offer, did not refuse: but (to prepare the mind of the old Gentleman, to be better able to make benefit of what should be said about it) writ, and deliuered vnto him a Paper, shewing briefely

and plainely, how the true visible Church of Christ must be so visible in al Ages, as that the names of some principal Members thereof, in euerie Age, may be shew∣ed out of good Authors.

A true Copie of which Paper, I thinke fit here to set downe; in regard it may serue others, as wel as this old Gentleman, to vnderstand, Why Catholiques doe ordi∣narily so much presse Protestants, to name (if they can) Protestant Professors, in al Ages, as Catholiques doe in printed Bookes ordinarily set downe, a Catalogue of the Names of the chiefe Pastors, and other principal Members of the Catholique Roman Church, in al Ages.

A Copie of the first Paper, which M. Fisher writ, and deliuered to the old Gentle∣man, before the meeting.

1. It is certaine, There is one, and but one true in∣fallible* 2.1 Faith; without which, none can please God, nor consequently, attaine eternal Salnation.

2. This one infallible Faith cannot be had (accor∣ding to the ordinarie course of Gods prouidence) but* 2.2 by hearing Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church, who onely are lawfully sent and authorized to teach the true Word of God.

3. As therefore this one infallible Faith hath beene, and must be, in al Ages: so there must needes be, in al Ages, Preachers and Pastors of the true visi∣ble* 2.3 Church; of whom, al sorts of people haue in time past (as appeareth by Histories) learned, and must in al future times, learne the said infallible Truth.

4. Hence followeth, That if Protestants be the true

visible Church of Christ; al sorts of men, who in euerie Age haue had the aforesaid infallible Faith, haue learned it, by hearing Protestant Preachers, whose names may yet be found in Histories; as the names of those are found, who in euerie former Age did teach and conuert People of seueral Nations vnto the Faith of Christ.

5. Hence further followeth, That if there cannot (as there cannot) be found in Histories, Names of Prote∣stant Preachers, who in al Ages did teach al sorts of faithful People, and who conuerted seueral Nations vnto the Christian Faith: Hence followeth, I say, That Pro∣testants are not the true visible Church of Christ; ney∣ther are their Preachers lawfully sent, or sufficiently au∣thorized to teach; nor People securely warranted, to learne of them that one infallible Faith, without which none can possibly please God, nor (if they so liue and dye) be saued.

If any Protestant wil answer; let him set downe Names of Protestant Preachers in al Ages, who taught People Protestant Doctrine in euerie seueral Age; or confesse, there were no such before Luther; or, at least, not in al Ages to be found in Histories.

After this, M. Fisher let the old Gentleman see a little printed Booke, in which was a Catalogue of visible Ro∣man Professors in al Ages: wishing him to vrge his Mi∣nisters, to shew (if they can) a like Catalogue of their Protestant Professors. And it is very likely, that this Booke (as also the foresaid Paper) was by this old Gen∣tleman carryed to Sir Humfrey: from whom, about two or three dayes before the meeting, a Paper was sent to M. Fisher, contayning the former Questi∣on; and another like Question proposed to him, to dispute vpon: the contents whereof were as fol∣loweth.

The question proposed by M. Fisher, in which he vndertaketh to maintaine the negatiue, is set downe by him in haec verba:

Whether the Protestant Church was in al ages visi∣ble, especially in the ages going before Luther: and whether the names of such visible Protestants, in al ages, can be shewed and proued out of good Authors?

To this vniuersal demand (requiring rather an Hi∣storical large volume then Syllogical briefe disputes, we answer, That although:

1. Diuine infallible Faith is not built vpon deduction out of humane Historie, but diuine Reuelation, as is confessed by the Schoolemen, and ex∣pressely by Bellarmine, Historiae humanae non faciunt fidem nisi humanam.

2. And this question is grounded vpon vncertaine and false supposals: yet wee requite this Proponent, putting him to his owne taske in his owne defence, by propounding to him the like question: viz.

Whether the Romish Church, (that is, a Church hol∣ding the particular entire doctrine of the now Ro∣manists, as it is comprised in the Councel of Trent) was in al ages visible, especially in the first 600. yeeres; and whether the names of such visible or legible Romanists in al ages can be shewed and pro∣ued out of good Authors?

We wil answer negatiuely, That no such Church or Professors can be shewed.

This Paper being deliuered to M. Fisher, he writ a se∣cond Paper, to explicate the meaning of his question,

to shew an equal method of proceeding in the Dispu∣tation.

A Copie of a second Paper, written by M. Fisher before the meeting.

M. Fisher being requested thereunto, for satisfaction of a Gentleman, propounded two questions:

1. The first, Whether there must not be in al ages a visible Church, of which al sorts are to learne the infal∣lible Faith, necessary to saluation?

2. The second, Whether the Protestant Church was in al ages visible, especially in the ages going before Lu∣ther; and whether the names of such visible Protestants in al ages can be shewed, and proued out of good Au∣thors?

To the first question, Sir H. and others that were pre∣sent, assented; so as it was subscribed with these words, It is granted: and so M. Fisher was content, that his se∣cond question should be the only question. Then Sir H▪ hauing left it to the choice of M. F. whether he would answer, or dispute: M.F. did choose to answer, and de∣fend the negatiue part. So as it lyeth vpon Sir H. and those whom he shal choose, to make his party good, to proue out of good Authors the affirmatiue; to wit: The Protestants Church was in al ages visible, especially in the ages before Luther. And likewise, they must set downe the names of such visible Protestants in al ages, as was de∣manded. When Sir H. or his friends shal haue perfor∣med this their taske, M. Fisher wil performe what is re∣quired in the Paper sent vnto him by Sir H. in the same sort and sense, as he requireth Sir H. and his friends to performe their taske.

For auoyding therefore of al mistaking, and conse∣quently,

needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes, M. F. in his question requireth:

1. That names of men in al ages be set downe, whom Sir H. and his friends conceiue to haue bin Protestants.

2. That those men whose names they set downe, be shewed out of good Authors, to agree in holding some points of Faith, in which Protestants differ from the Romane Catholikes.

3. That Sir H. or his friends wil defend against M. F. that the same men held no other points of Faith, one differently from another, and from the present Prote∣stant Doctrine (contayned in the 39. Articles, vnto which al English Ministers are sworne) for otherwise they cannot make one and the same Protestant Church.

In this sort and sense, when Sir H. or his friends shal haue shewed a visible Protestant Church in al ages, then M. F. or his friends wil in a like proportionable sort and sense, shew, proue and defend a visible Romane Church in al ages.

This Paper was deliuered to the old Gentleman, and was confessed to haue beene receiued by the Doctors before the disputation, and before the meeting. The time and manner of which meeting is set downe by the Protestant Relator, in manner following:

The 27. of Iune, 1623. M. Fisher, M. Sweet, Iesuits, and some others with them, came to Sir H. Lynds house, in a little dyning roome, where they found the aforesaid M. Buggs, his wife and children, and others of Sir H. friends, that had then dined with him, toge∣ther with some others also: whose comming in, as the said Sir H. did not expect; so he could not with ciuilitie put them forth his house, but did instantly cause his doores to bee locked vp, that no more might enter: notwithstanding which his command,

some others also came in scattering, after the confe∣rence began.

In this parcel it is to bee considered, how great care M. Fisher had to haue the meeting secret, and how wel he obserued the fore-appointed conditions: in which he was so punctual, that after he had his number, of one Assistant, and foure Witnesses, and a Writer, he would not so much as tel a Gentleman of his acquaintance (who had by other meanes vnderstood of the meeting, and the place of meeting) at what houre the meeting should be; whereas on the contrary part, so much speech was made of it, by some of the Protestant side, that (beside the number appointed to bee Auditors) many Protestant Gentlemen and Gentlewomen, and some Noblemen, and many Ministers, did repaire to Sir Humfrey his house, which M. Fisher found to be so filled, as he com∣plained to Sir Humfrey of the inequalitie of that Audi∣ence, compared with the few he brought; which Sir H. could not denie, but excused himselfe in such man∣ner as he could, saying: He could not helpe it, &c.

Notes

• * 1.1

  A very weake and Insuffici∣ent satisfacti∣on, as is show∣ed hereafter.
• * 2.1

  Eph. 4. Heb. 11.
• * 2.2

  Rom. 10. v. 14, 15. Eph. 4. 11.
• * 2.3

  Ose. 2. v. 19, 20. Isa. 59. 20. Matth. 18. 20. Eph. 4. v. 11.