The second replie of Thomas Cartwright: agaynst Maister Doctor Whitgiftes second answer, touching the Churche discipline

7. Diuision pag. 86.

WHere as I alledged / that in making ceremonies and or∣ders off the churche / this owght to be obserued / which * 1.1 sainct Paul requireth / that they offende none / but especially that they offende not the churche off God: the first exception off the answerer is / that this rule prescribeth the dutye vnto priuate men, and not generally vnto the churche. As thoughe the rule were not generall / or this thinge were prescribed vnto them / in re∣spect of that they were priuate / and not in respect off beinge Christians / whether priuate / or publicke: in which case that

which is commaun̄ded to one ••s cōmaunded to ahor as if the Lorde were so carefull in priuate offences / and careles in pu∣blike. And iff offence ought to be taken heede off in thinges doone withowt many witnesses / withowte all countenaunce off autoritie / and once onely: how muche more owght yt to be taken heede off / in the orders off the church / which haue so many lookers on / so greate cōtinuance / and suche force off au∣toritie to strike yt deeper in?

His seconde exception is / that by this meanes the orders off the churche, shoulde be subiecte to one or twoo mens liking, or misliking. which answer procedeth off two foule an ouersight / and wan¦te off vnderstandinge off the worde offense, For Saint Pau∣le by offense / doothe not meane displeasure / or discontement: but that wherby / occasion is giuen to anie / of synne and trans∣gression off the lawe off God / which maie as well be with alowance / as disalowance / when all are pleased with that which is doone / as when they are displeased. And therfore in that signification which Saint Paul and our sauiour Ch∣rist before him take this word offense / the churche owghte to * 1.2 prouide / that there be no offense giuen to one alone.

His thirde exception / that I added this worde especiallie to the texte, is a mere cauill. For althowghe I vsed that worde / more then is in the texte: yet I bothe kepte the meaning / and layde y•• more open vnto the symple reader. And wher he sa••th / that the Apostell would haue men more carefull off offending those whiche are not yet come to the churche, then those which be off yt: yt is altogether vntrew / and not onely againste the meaning off the Apostle / but against the generall rule off loue: wherin thes degrees are assigned / that we (leuing all men) should especially loue those / which are members off the same bodye with vs. Whereupon yt foloweth / that the fruictes off loue (wheroff this is one off the principall / that we ••iue no occasi∣on off offense) owght rather to be performed toward them off the churche / then towardes straungers. And y•• being cer∣taine which S. Paul saithe / that we muste doo Good vnto all * 1.3 but especially to those which are off the how shoulde of faithe:

yt muste needes folow off the contrary / that we owght not to doo hurte vnto any / but especially vnto those / which are off the howshoulde off faithe. And this degree doothe our Sauiour Christe him selfe note / when he thundering againste offences / addethe this as an encrease / and an higher stepp in syn̄e: if be yt doone againste one of those which beleue in hym. * 1.4 And where he saithe / that straungers may be so withdrawne, whe∣ras there can be no suche feare off those whiche are alredie members off the churche: he speaketh bothe contrarie to all experience / and directly contrary to the Apostell / which disputing in this case * 1.5 of offense / saithe that the weake brother perisheth throwghe thes offences.

Laste off all (yff he require authoritie) Oecumenius / a mā myche liked of the answerer / thīcketh that he had an espe∣ciall care / to those that be alredy members of the churche: and Bucer hathe a longe treatise / wherin he proueth / that if either the Papistes / or those that are members off the churche mu∣ste be offended: that yt is more agreable / to prouide againste the offence off the churche / then off the papistes. * 1.6

The seconde rule he aloweth / but admittethe no com∣petent Iudges of yt / but suche as made the orders: as the pa∣pistes / whiche (alowing off the Scriptures) take them selues onely able / to iudge off the sense off them. And if there were but some few as he saithe / where as there are many thowsan∣sandes / and those all priuate men / where there be which ha∣ue charge: yet I wolde know of the A. whether the spirite off God / is tyed so ether to multitude / or to autoritie: that bothe a fewe / and priuate / may not espie faultes in the orders / which haue bene deuised by many and publike persons.

To the thirde rule / that all shoulde be doone vnto edify∣ing: he saithe that yt can not be applied to all thinges generally vsed in * 1.7 the churche, but to praiers, tounges, &c. specified in that chapter, as if it were not the ordinary of the Apostell / to proue the particu∣lers / by the generall / and so to conclude / that the exercises off praing / singinge &c. shoulde be doone to edifying / be∣cause all things muste so be doone. And where he woul∣de seeme / to ••ye the Signification / off edifying / onely

vnto instruction in the churche: yt is manifeste that the Apo∣stell / carying yt also vnto thinges indifferent / will haue this to be the rule / off our priuate actions / myche more off su∣che publike actions / as I haue before declared. And the wor∣des which saincte Paule vseth / doo not require / that ceremo∣nies * 1.8 and orders of the churche shoulde edifye (as he surmiset∣he): yt is sufficient to come vnder this rule off the Apostle / that they tende to edifyinge: and he can not be ignorant / that yt is one thinge to builde / and another thinge to tende to bu∣ilding.

For the 4 rule / which ys that they be doone to the glory of God / he will acknowledge yt to be no rule / to direct ceremo¦nies * 1.9 by / because yt is a rule to guide all actions whatsoeuer. which ys a very straunge argument / that because yt is a rule to guide all actions: therfore yt is no rule to direct the churches. And yff this be a sufficient cause off refusing yt as impertinent to this purpose: then that rule (which he off thes fowre dothe o∣nely allwe / as of that onely which he him selffe browght) mu∣ste also be iudged impertinent to this purpose / and so thruste owte off the doores with her followes. For there is nothing whatsoeuer a man doeth / whether priuately or publickly in matters either ciuill / or Ecclesiasticall: but he owght to kepe this rule / that yt be doone in order and in comelines.

Where vppon my wordes / And yet so left to the order off the church, that it doo nothing agaynst rhe rules afore∣sayde, he noteth that I am cōtrary vnto my selfe, and contrary vnto the the Adm. Why dooth he note not the cōtrarietye? Are these con∣trary? Yt is not enough, that the orders off the church be not against the vvord, onles they be grovvnded vppon the vvord: ād this / that they are so left to the order off the chur∣ch, that yt / doo nothing contrary to the rules aforesaide? Declaring my minde at large before / I haue in this last sen∣tence / put lesse then was in the other: but there is nothing contrary. I neuer dissented from him in that he saith / the chur∣ch may in making orders, doo nothing agaynst the word: but in this /

that he by reiecting the Admonition / denieth that they ought to be cut owt according to the word and commaundement off God: I bothe did / and doo still dissent from him.

The article off the Duche church / as yt is set downe off M. Beza / we doo fully agree with: which is / that vve ovvght * 1.10 to esteme thinges indifferent, by the circumstance off time, place, and person, vveighed by the skoles off the vvord off God. There are diuers thinges besides in this diuision / that are nothinge to the pourpose / and vnworthy any answere. And amongest others / what an vntollerable mockerie off the reader is yt / that where yt hath bene shewed / that the wor∣des off the Admonition / not commaunded in the scripture, owght to be taken for that / which is either particularly / or in the generall commaunded: he notwithstanding saith / that peraduenture we may shift yt, in saying that they ment, either generally, or particularly. Wherin in steade that he should haue proued / that they ment not so: he maketh a paraduenture off that / which hath bene before in so many wordes disputed.

Notes

• * 1.1

  1. Cor. 10.
• * 1.2

  Mat. 5. 29.
• * 1.3

  Gal. 6.
• * 1.4

  18. Mat. 6
• * 1.5

  1. Cor. 8. 11. Rom. 14. 15. 20.
• * 1.6

  Bucer v∣pon the 18. of S. Math.
• * 1.7

  1. Cor. 14.
• * 1.8

  Rom. 14. 19.
• * 1.9

  Rom. 14.
• * 1.10

  24. Epist.