The answer to William Penn Quaker, his book, entituled, The new witnesses proved old hereticks Wherein he is proved to be an ignotant [sic] spater-brain'd Quaker, who knows no more what the true God is, nor his secret decrees, then one of his coach-horses doth, nor so much; for the oxe knoweth his owner, and the ass his masters scrip, but Penn doth not know his maker, as is manifest by the Scriptures, which may inform the reader, if he mind the interpretation of Scripture in the discourse following. I. That God was in the forme, image and likeness of mans bodily shape, as well as his soul from eternity. ... VIII. What is meant by the armour of God, the wilderness, and the wilde beasts I fought with in the wilderness. / By Lodowick Muggleton.

CHAP VI. (Book 6)

Thirdly, Penn quotes John 1.2.13. And the Word was God all things were made by him: Penns Argument to this, If all things were made by him, then both Heaven and Earth, because th••y are part of all things: but the Place says, all things or whatever ha•• being w re made by him: saith Pe••n, Therefore all co-eternally of Earth or Hea∣ven, with the everlasting God, is excluded and refuted.

Answer. We do acknowledge the Word was God, and all things w••re made by him; and that he made Heaven and ••a••th, and all things else in the beginning: but what is this to Penns purpose?

This doth not prove that God made the heaven and earth of no∣thing, neither doth it pr••ve, that all things that G••d has made to be coeternally with God, neither doth it exclude nor refure at all, that the substance of Earth and Water was not an eternal Chaos of dead, sensless matter and substance, but altogether to the contrary.

Fourthly, Penns Argument to conclude this Head, For by him were all things created, and he is before all things, and by him all things consist, Col. 1.16, 17. And thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the Earth, and the Heavens are the Works of thy Hands.

Answer, We do own the words of these Scriptures to be truth, that the Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the Earth and the Heaven•• are the works of his hands, as I said before, so I say still, God did not lay the foundation of the earth with nothing he had the substance of earth to lay a foundation before he laid it: neither was the Heavens the works of ••is hands made of nothing: God had matrer and substance to work upon, void Earth and Waters, even as a man hath to lay the foundation of an house, for God cannot work upon nothing no more then man can: and the Scripture doth say, that God laid the foundation of the Earth in the beginning, whic•• is clear, that the substance of Earth and Water was before the beginning of this world, even eternal: but it was in the beginning when God b••gan to create this world, then did he work upon these two dead sensl sse substances of earth and water, that were eternal in their essence and being, and by his handy work he created the Firmament of Heaven out of that sub∣stance of w••ter, as I said before; and wh••n God had disc vered to himself the earth or dry land that lay hid under the waters, then he created the earth as we ••ee, and laid the foundation of it in this order as we see this G••d did in the beginning, but the sub∣stance of e••rth and water was eternal, a•• I said before.

Page 14. Penn sa th, Nor can their idle shift any ways secure them from the dint of those Scriptur••s, nor the Arguments bui••t upon them, viz. making is fashioning, so God made the Heavens and the Earth, as a Carpenter makes a Door or a Chest, he fashions it of wood, but he doth not make the wood; Penn s••ith, A distinction fitter for Bedlam then men that are in thet•• wits; and ••aith he, how can they think that it was harder to Almighty God, to create out of nothing the more inani∣mate and lifeless part of Heaven and Earth, then to compose that va∣riety of excellent creatures; and to infuse that great spirit and soul by which they are refectively instincted or acted.

Answer, That the dint of those Scri••tures, nor Penns Argu∣ments built upon them, doth no ways touch the foundation, that earth and water was not eternal, but proveth altogether that they were eternal; and all Penns Arguments built upon those Scri∣ptures will prove but an idle shift indeed, to himself a••d all that believe him; And what doth the word create, making or fa∣shioning signifie, but the making of the fashion of something that had no frame or fashion before; therefore it is said, that the earth was without forme and void, that is, it was void of all form in the beginning, when God began to create, but not void of substance, so God made that which was substance without forme into forme; so God created the earth, that is, he made that form∣less earth into forme to set forth the glory of his Workmanship, therefore it is said, Heb. 11.3. Through faith we understand the Worlds were framed by the Word of God; here we see, that framing is cre∣ating or setting the world into such a frame and order, as we see; but this doth not prove, that God had no matter nor substance to make this excellent frame of earth and heaven, and all creatur••s therein, but proveth to the contrary.

And you have made a fit comparison your self, that though a Carpenter doth make a Door or Chest, he fashions it of wood, but he does not make the wood; so it is with God, he hath framed the Heavens and the Earth, and hath fashioned them, and all crea∣tures

else, as we see; but the substance of earth and water he made them not, no more then the Carpenter made the wood, so that this distinction that is counted by learned Penn more fitter for Bedlam then men in their wits, is become the chief distinction to bring down the wisdom of the Serpent which is so high exalt∣ed: and that which Penn quotes, the wisest speech of all, he hath discovered his great ignorance, and the deepest darkness in his minde of all, in these words, And, saith he, can they think it was harder to Almighty God to create out of nothing the inanimate and life∣less part of Heaven and Earth, then to compose that variety of excel∣lent creatures, and to infuse that great spirit and soul, by which they are refectively instincted or acted. This is more like Bedlam in∣deed then a man of Learning; I shall deal truly with you, and with the Reader, that we do n t only think, but do perfectly know, that it was harder for God to make this vast earth and wa∣ters of nothing, then it was to make the Firmament of Heaven and all those excellent creatures which he hath made; nay, with reverence to God the Creator, we know he never did nor never could make any thing whatsoever of nothing, For of nothing comes no••hing: Methinks it is sufficient to satisfie the minde of man, to b••li••ve and honour the eternal God, the infinite Creator, in that he hath made such variety of excellent creatutes, and Man in his own image and l••keness of something; and God hath glory e∣nough, in that he hath framed the Heavens and the Earth out of those two dark substan••es of earth and water; but the seed of the Serp nt, such as Penns is, will not honour such a God that cannot make this vast earth and waters of nothing.

Neither did G••d ever infuse that gr••at spirit and soul into any creature whatsoev••r; but when God created every living crea∣ture by the Power of ••is Word speaking, it revived breath of life according to its kind, for if he mad•• their bodies by his Word, his Word gave them life also: so that his great spirit and soul as you call it, was n••t infused into no creature at all, but within his own body, which is no b gger then a midd e statured man, even the

same bigness and height as Christ was of when upon earth: I suppose you may reade in the History what stature Christ was of when he was crucified: and whoever believes in a God of a big∣ger bulk, then he believes in a false God, as most of ynu Quakers do.

Thus I have given an Answer unto those Scriptures and Argu∣ments Penn the Quaker hath alledged against earth and water, be∣ing an eternal Chaos of da••k sensless substance: and for the Readers better information, I shall propound these Particulars following.

1. That the substance of earth a••d watet were from all Eter∣nity uncreated, sensless, dark and dead matter, like unto water and dust, that have no kind of life, light or vertue in them at all. Sec ndly, it is an opinion of the Learned, that those substances Earth and Water were not eternal, but they have imagined that the Creator spake the Word and so they came to be: and after he had given them their being, he formed all things that were made out of them. Thirdly, there is no Scripture that maketh mention of any such thing, as Gods giving being to earth and watet. Fourthly, neither can it be proved by Scripture, that God gave being to the vast dead earth, and dark deep water: neither did those two substances of earth and water proceed out of Gods Mouth, but their being in the Original was eternal, and will be eternal. Fifthly, there is not a word throughout the scriptures, that God gave any being or beginning unto dead, dark, senseless earth and water. Sixthly, can Penn tell where God was resident when he gave a being to earth and water, for earth and water were uncreated substances eternally distinct from God. Seventhly, that earth and water were an eternal Chaos of confused matter, essentially distinct from God the Creator. Throughout the Scri∣ptures, no man can finde one word or tittle in reference to the deep waters its beginning, therefore of necessity it must be eternal. Eighthly, tha•• the waters covered the Earth before God began

to create, wherefore the earth being as it is in the deep waters, must ne••ds be one essence eternally with those deep waters, and in the earth, before Gods Spitit moved upon the waters, and the Earth was inclosed as a Prisoner in the womb of darkness under the waters, so that the waters were under the earth, and above the earth, and the waters under the earth did bear up the earth, and the earth in the middle did bear up the waters that covered the face of the ea••th, this was an eternal Chaos: Earth and Water was eternal in their substance and being.

Thus much in Answer to the second point, that Earth and Wa∣ter was eternal, and that it is a standing truth, and that Penn, Augustine, and Aristotle the great Philosopher were in a great errour, and were grossely ignorant, to affirm, that God made the substance of earth and water of nothing, and no such great here∣sies as they themselves did own, in that they judged the truth to be heresies: Who made Augustine a Judge of heresies? not God I am sure, but he spake as those blinde men did at that time, when darkness overspread the earth.