An answer to W.R. his narration of the opinions and practises of the churches lately erected in Nevv-England.: Vindicating those Godly and orthodoxall churches, from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their church way, by the said W.R. in his booke. Wherein is plainely proved, 1. That the grounds of his narration are sandie and insufficient. 2. That the maner of his handling it, unloving and irregular. 3. That the matter of it, ful of grosse mistakes & divers contradictions. 4. That the quotations extremely wrested, and out of measure abused. 5. That his marginall notes impertinent and injurious. / By Thomas Welde, Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in Nevv-England. This is licensed and entred according to order.

Answer to CHAP. II.

[unspec I] HE saith Art. 1. 2. That we currently hold there is no visible Church, but a particular, and that we denie an universall visible Church [IN ANY SENSE.]

[Answ.] Though the quoted Authors say. There is no Church (proper∣ly so called) wherein Ordinances may be administered, but a par∣ticularly only. Yet wee acknowledge also IN SOME SENSE a Do∣mesticall Church, Phil. 2. To the Church in thy house; and an VNI∣VERSALL Church consisting of all visible beleevers, according to 1 Tim. 3.15. And this HIMSELF grants we hold, Marg. 2. Art. 2. Why then doth he say we denie an universall visible CHVRCHIN ANY SENSE?

He stumbles at the smalnes of the number of members in our Churches, at their first erection. 7. 8. 9. (saith he) and on this string he harpes foure or five times at least in this booke.

1. What number expresly shall make a Church is not set downe in Scripture. In Adams and Noahs time when there was not above 7. 8. or 9. persons, will he denie the being of a Church? And what will he make of Christ his family, where were not above 12. besides himselfe? And of the first foundationalls of the famous Church of Ephesus who were about 12. Art. 19. 1. 7. and Biz•• on that place saith, Paul then planted a Church amongst the Ephesians.

2. When our number is thus small, it's only in the very first infan∣cy of it, it abides not so, but members are speedily, and daily added, untill they be (as he blames us for not being) a compleate organicall body Hence ••hese objections also in his Marg answered, OF WANT OF IMPLOYMENT AND MAINTENANCE for the Officers, in regard of their small number.

[unspec III] He saith Article the third, We denie all representative Churches in a power of judicature.

[Answ.] It is because we know no rule to set the Officers in the roome of

their whole Church, and the Presbyterie in the place of all their Churches, to binde the one or the other to stand to their decrees, un∣lesse we had Apostles on earth againe, for Church Officers, yet even they were very tender in this point.

To the Margent to Art 1.

••t he may prove the number of 7. 8. or 9 too small, to admini∣•• [unspec I] censure, and so no Church, he makes a faire addition of his own to a rule of Christ: for whereas Christ directs, Mat. 18.15, 16. an [unspec ☜] offended brother to take one or two only to him to admonish the offender in private, and then tell the Church, now he will have this course, (beyond the rule) twice gone over, that he may make the foresaid number too small for a Church-censure. So that he will rather crosse Christ himselfe then not thwart us, and here he makes a long discourse to shew his owne weaknesse the more in this new devised censure of his.

He saith, The Apostles Churches consisted of many thousands. [unspec II]

1. Not in their first beginnings, [Answ.] for in the greatest Church the number was small enough at first in comparison, Acts 1.15, and this is the time of our Churches we now speake of.

2. Their grouth was sudden, and by an extraordinary way, (cer∣tain thousands being added in two dayes,) and so necessity inforced their abode together at present.

3. They continued not long so great a body, but were soone dis∣persed by Sauls persecution of them, Act. 8.1.

4. While they did hold together, they might possibly meete to e∣dification, as well as in some of our Churches here in London, as Cripple-Gate, Olives, Sepulchers and others, where the Ministers voyce may reach to edification, 4. 5. 6. 7000. soules, every Lords day. Vid. Mr. Mathers booke, pag. Therefore for him to say it is not possible, &c. is too large.

He tells us our Churches cannot be gathered in country Ʋillages, espe∣cially [unspec III] of such choyce Members, &c. where so few Saints are, &c.

1. That is the fault of people, not of the rule, nor of the way; [Answer] If the Saints be thin sowen, who can helpe it? They ought to have flowed in more abundantly to Christ by the Gospell in all this time.

2. They may partake of all Ordinances, as they did, except the Sacraments, and (such as are fit) of those also, in best times, and ways as may be ordered for most conveniency.

3. He must not limit Gods power, who by the word rightly dispen∣sed and his blessing thereon,* 1.1 can raise a people for himselfe beyond all

(our thoughts,* 1.2 as he hath done elswhere.

[unspec IIII] He takes much paines to no purpose in Marg. Art. 2. to prove in confutation of us) that in some sense,* 1.3 there is an universall visible Church.

[Answ.] Why, we never denied it [in some sense,] but blamed him, (even now) for saying, we denied it.

* 1.4I wonder at the man, who saith, 1. That we hold what we doe. •••• 2. Then pretendeth to prove it, but falsifies his Authors. 3. Then makes confutation of his own sayings, as if they were ours. 4. Then flings reproaches on us for such sayings, which are not ours, but his. 5. (To make us amends) in the end of his Margent, he fathers all up∣on our mutablenesse, saying. [sometimes] we acknowledge an univer∣sall visible Church, but usually denie it; and yet even in this also, he slanders, not bringing (nor being able to bring, I verily believe) one word of proofe, that ever we denied it: Let him make those things good, or humbly confesse his error.

[unspec V] 5. To Marg. of Art. 3. he saith, Though we denie (in Art. 3.) the Officers of one Church power to represent their Church in her judicature, &c. yet sometimes we are forced to use messengers to represent the whole body, as at the constitution of a new Church, and private examination of Members to be admitted, [Answer.] &c.

Thus he would beare the world in hand, (if you wil believe him) that our practise doth crosse our Principles, but there is no such thing, for here he proves not, neither can, that we denie a Church that libertie, (which all societies in the world have, i. e.) to depute & delegate her Officers, in some particular cases (as in her name and stead) to repre∣sent the whole body: for this is no more then the Church of Antioch did, Act. 15.2. and then our selves frequently doe, in some instance he mentions and divers others.

But what is this to the giving those Officers generally a power of judicature in and over that Church: and a compound Presbyterie, in and over all their Churches, whom (he saith) they represent? be∣cause we denie the latter, doe we therfore the former?

3 It is meete he should take notice of a double aspersion (without any shew of ground or proofe) cast upon us. 1. That we denie any representation of Churches. 2. That we crosse our principles, in practising what we denie; both these imputations, (I hope) he will honestly acquit us of.

[unspec VI] Marg. Art. 4. In the difinition (saith he) of a Church the Officers are left out.

He knowes well that a definition must accord to the lowest de∣gree

of the thing defined, therefore we use to put in only essentialls and not all integralls into the definition: for suppose the Officers of a Church be taken away by death 〈◊〉〈◊〉 it, yet (I hope) he will not say, that in the vacancy, the Church ceaseth to be, Officers are not simply for the being, but the well being of a Church.

See how he adulterates his quotation, in two or three Articles of this Chapter.

1. (He saith) his Author assumes,* 1.5 we hold there is no visible Church but a particular. But his Author saith, no visible Church (properly so called) but a particular, so W. R. leaves out the middle words, just as in Mat. 4.6. whereby the sense is exceedingly altered, sith a Church improperly so called, is yet a church.

2. He saith, [we currently hold this;] but his Author speaks modestly in these words, we know not any, &c. Ans. to 32. q. pag. 9. Ans. to 9. Pos. 66.

3. He saith, we hold there is no universall visible Church [in any sense;] but his Author saith only, we know no such visible Catholike Church, where∣in the seales are to be dispensed] Ans. to 9. Pos. 66. A man with halfe an eye may discerne this is not square dealing.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Gen. 13.14.
• * 1.2

  Ephes. 3.10.
• * 1.3

  M 9.3
• * 1.4

  ☞
• * 1.5

  Answ. to q. p. 10.