An answer to W.R. his narration of the opinions and practises of the churches lately erected in Nevv-England.: Vindicating those Godly and orthodoxall churches, from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their church way, by the said W.R. in his booke. Wherein is plainely proved, 1. That the grounds of his narration are sandie and insufficient. 2. That the maner of his handling it, unloving and irregular. 3. That the matter of it, ful of grosse mistakes & divers contradictions. 4. That the quotations extremely wrested, and out of measure abused. 5. That his marginall notes impertinent and injurious. / By Thomas Welde, Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in Nevv-England. This is licensed and entred according to order.

Answer to CHAP. XII.

A Short Answer might serve to this long Chapter, for most of it (as also of the two next) is but a repetition of things spoken once or twice, (some of them) thrice before, and answered to already. He said in the beginning of his preface he wanted not work••, but (it seemes) now to∣wards the end of his booke, he is more at leasure, (and so hee thinkes his reader is also,) else why he should so double & treble the very same things (totidem verbis) I know not, unlesse happily to make a deeper impression of his owne mistakes in his reader.

In Art. 1. he tells us, that after a Church is gathered, it is often some yeares [unspec I] before she addresseth her selfe to the calling of Officers.

Whereas it is our usuall and constant course (as hath beene said) not to gather any Church; untill they have one amongst themselves, [Ans.] fit for a Minister, whom with all speede they call into Office, and account them∣selves a lame and imperfect body till that be effected.

In his Marg. on that Art. he saith hee is told to his comfort, that many [unspec II] that were counted good Ministers in Old-England, are there layed aside, because they aime at men of speciall parts.

1. We desire proofe for this aspersion unjustly cast on us, [Answ.] or else we shall still father it upon himselfe, as

2. That good Ministers are laid aside there, 2. many good Ministers, 3 on this ground, because they aime at men of special abilities And where∣as he saith, he was told so, that is not sufficient: Let him produce his Au∣thors, or it must lie on him.

I wonder he counts it strange (in Art. 3.) that we should desire to have a [unspec III] man to be a Member before he be an Officer.

Is it not a thing most naturall for a body to imploy it's own Members? [Answ.] 2. Is not the mutuall interest in each other the stronger tye? •• Doe not all bodies and societies in the world, the very same? Was eve•• any man of another corporation, elected Sheriffe, Major, or into any speciall office in London, unlesse he were first seasoned with this same salt (as he saith) of Membership of the same body?

To the 4 Art. of ordaining Ministers by private men. [unspec IV]

Let him not wonder at this, for Numb. 8.10. he may see, [Answer.] that though

the Levites were Church Officers, and the Children of Israel were not; yet the Children of Israel did lay their hands upon the Levites; And though all the Children of Israel could not doe this, yet some principall ones did it instead of the rest. So it may be lawfull in some case to doe the like. 2. If people have a power of election of Officers, (which is the greater) then why may they not ordaine them (which is the lesse) unto the office which before they elected them to? But I referre the Reader to see more of this, in Mr. Mathers late answer to Mr. Herle, pag. 45.

[unspec V] To the 5. Art. where he saith, We hold the imposition of hands of the Pres∣byterie, but a meere formality.

* 1.1Doth he judge all the Churches and Ministers of Christ, there, so devoyd of Religion, reason or the light of common sense, as to account a venerable Ordinance of God [a meere formality?]

But that you may see whether he deals well with us or no, vid. Ans. to 34. q. p. 67. where its expresly said, That though the essence of a Ministers call consists in Election, yet we looke at ordination by imposition of hands, nece∣sary by divine institution] can he with any shew of reason explicate a thing [necessary by divine institution] by [a meere formality,] is this right commenting upon the text? And note also that this very place cited is one proofe he brings for this Article, but whether for him or directly a∣gainst him, I pray judge.

For the other printed proofe (discourse of Covenant, p. 23.) I confi∣dently affirme there is not any one word, or the least shew for such an ex∣pression, let the Reader prove whether I wrong him or no, but only that people have power to choose their own Officers.

Let him not delude the world by thwacking quotations on his Articles, when it's an usuall thing that some of them speake nothing for him, o∣thers directly against him.

[unspec VI] In Margent of 5. Art. he saith, That all that are elected by th•• people to prea••h (which is one chiefe duty of the Pastour) and doe receive by compact the dues by law to the Pastour, ••••uld be their Pastour.

[Ans.] Though preaching by a Pastour called into office, be one of the principall workes of his office, yet all preaching is not a Pastorall worke, as Act. 8.4. The scattered Church, without respect to an office, are said to [preach] the word every where. Now if a man be called by a congrega∣tion, to exercise his gift in this worke of preaching only, and not to be a Pastour to them: should he not exceed the bounds of his call, if he should be (as W. R. would have him) a Pastour to that people? And by this rea∣son also he condemnes all Lecturers (and I suppose himselfe in so doing) (for they are called to preach, yet no man lookes on them) or they on thēselves, as Pastours of that place, where they so exercise. As for the dues he receives for his preaching, whether more or lesse, by a compact or o∣therwise,

whether of the same kind with the Pastour or not) is not mate∣riall, for it's his call, not his wages, makes him a Pastour or no Pastour.

In the Marg. of the 6. Art. he saith, that one Pastour or Teacher alone, or [unspec VII] one private man layes on his hands.

It hath neither proofe nor truth, [Answ.] but is against our judgements and practise, and so I leave him to looke over such ungrounded, and loose speeches cast upon our way.

Art. 7. That in our practise we usually confound the Pastours & Teachers office, [unspec VIII] the Pastour and Teacher equally teaching, and applying the word without any difference.

This hath no more truth then the other, [Answer.] for it is both our professed judgements and constant practise, that as the teacher is chosen, whose proper gift is aptnesse to teach, so after hee is chosen, hee bends himselfe that way, and waites upon teaching, so the Pastor upon exhotting, as Rom. 12.7, 8. Though in such congregations where there is but one, hee labours to improve his talent both waies, for the present necessity till that defect be supplyed, (as good reason he hath so to doe.) And for his proofe, (see how punctuall he is) he turnes us to Mr. Cot. Sermons on the Revel. and other Texts. Would he have us looke over all Master Cot. Sermons, which may be at least 500. or 1000 pages, to find his proofes, and when we have done, we shall be just where we were, for Mr. Cot. (we know) is ex∣presly contrary to him, and for that we turne him not to all his Sermons as he doth us, but to one certaine place in his Cat. p. 2. whose words are these; The Pastors speciall worke is to attend upon exhortation; The Teacher on Doctrine: and his owne, and others practises there run accordingly.

In the Marg. to this Article he saith, That some of us doe question the Com∣munion [unspec IX] of Churches as a thing overthrowing some of our principles, 2 that others, (to uphold it) have invented a power in one Minister to translate his owne power to another Minister to administer the seales and censures to any of their members.

Both these are ungrounded, unproved, expressions, [Answ.] and but repealed by him, now answered before by us; therefore I passe them by.

As for that Inference he seemes to drawe that every Ministeriall act [unspec X] without power, and irregularly done it seemes voyd, and so millions of persons un∣baptised to this day.

This might have beene spared for that maxim in law well approved of by Divines in this case (quod fieri non debuit factum val••t) holds good here. [Answ.] I know no grounds that Zipporah had to have circumcised her sonne (for it was proper to the man, as Gen. 17.9.23.) yet being done, it was not void or null, & though a Priest (popishly affected) should baptise a child with many invented superstitious, the child is not looked on as unbaptised [unspec XI]

To Art. 9. he saith, wee hold, All other acts besides administration of the Sacraments are common to members, as well as to Ministers. [Ans.]

1. It is not true, (we hold no such thing.)

2. The proofe hee brings no whit reacheth it.

3. It is directly against his owne Authors, he builds upon Answer to 32. q. p. 57. The calling (saith he) of Assemblies, and dismissing them, preach∣ing the word and prayer, administring the seales, permitting to speake in the As∣sembly, enjoyning silence, voting of matters, pronouncing of censures, &c. These are acts which the Presbyters may doe and no other members.

4. It is contrary to himselfe, chap. 6. Art. 8. where he setts downe the severall acts which he himselfe saith we ascent unto our Officers.

[unspec XII] Art. 10. He saith, That if a Minister who layes downe his ministry upon just grounds he is now become as a meere private man.

[Answ.] Whereas hee is looked on and reverenced as a worthy instrument of Christ, a man of gifts & parts, one that hath honored God in his house, and may doe it againe, and in meane time is imployed in dispensing his gifts, &c. is this to bee as a [meere private man;] but hee is not able to speake without disparaging.

[unspec XIII] To Art. 12. That the end of our Ministry is onely the building up of men al∣ready converted, (as supposing our members are all reall saints already,) nor are we bound by our Office to attend to conversion of soules, and if any bee converted by us, it is accidentall.

[Answer.] He strangly forgets himselfe, for 1 we say not that all our members are certainely reall Saints, but only visibly, so there may be some hypocrites amongst them probably, that may neede conversion, and therefore by our Office we are to attend that worke as farre as the needs of the stocke shall appeare. 2 The children of our members (the charge of whom our Ministers undertake, even by vertue of their Offices) are not yet, haply, converted, and he is bound to fulfill his Office towards them.

As for the Author cited to prove this Art. (Ans. to 32. q. 80. 81.) he of∣fords him not one title towards it; therefore I looke upon this Art. as a devised thing of his own, as a great part of his booke is.)

[unspec XIII] From this Art. thus mistaken, he drawes many invective conclusions against us, in a long Marg. but to no purpose at all, for the ground sincking, the bulding falls; and thus he shootes at his owne shadow.

* 1.2So still he keepes his old custome, 1 frames a false Art. of his own, (as if it were ou••s;) 2 Then pretends a proofe, which is none; 3 Then falls out with us for holding such absurdities; 4 Lastly drawes his inferences from his owne premises: this is his dealing all along his booke.

And then, (to make all up) he fall a taxing some brethren of that way here, for two things, 1 for neglecting to build up their owne Churches at home; whereas he should first have proved, that they have not a call to be absent for a time for their Churches good, and with their consent.

2. For labouring to convert others here, not so much to grace (saith he) as to our Church-Covenant. But let our owne Sermons preached (not in corners,

but) in the face of thousands testifie for us before God and men what the scope of our preaching hath beene and is.

He tell us Art. 14. First, That the Ministers in New-England are maintai∣ned [unspec XV] by the Peoples volutary contribution. 2. That this is cast in according to their weekely gaines, 3 and distributed to them according as the Deacons thinke fit.

Here are three particulars affirmed, and hardly any one of them true: [Ans.] for 1 this weekly contribution is properly intended, for the poore accor∣ding to 1 Cor. 16 1. Yet so as (if there be much given in.) Some Chur∣ches doe (though others do not) appoint the over plus [towards] the Mini∣sters maintenance, 2 This is not given in by the peoplee, according to their weekely gaines, (for that is an addition of his owne) but as God hath blest them with an estate in the generall, for suppose a member that is rich, though he hath not gained but lost the weeke last past, yet he contributes on the Lords day following; 3 nor is this dispensed to the Ministers (in those Churches where any part of it is so given) though by the hands of the Deacons yet not (for proportion) as they please, for this were to set the Deacons, above the Pastour and Teacher) but by the Church, who usually twice in the yeare or oftner, doe meete to consult and determine of the summe to be allowed for that yeere to their Ministers, and to raise it, either from the Churches treasurie (so much of it as there is to be had,) or by a contribution to be then made on purpose.

8. And for one proofe of all those he brings Ans. to 32. q. 77. wherein is nothing to proove any one of the particulars mentiond, but somethings rather against him. For there it is said, 1 that our Ministers maintenance must be honorable for his person, charge, and for hospitality; 2. not as almes and courtesie, but as debt and duty, and to be paid according to rules of justice, &c. 3 but for a way of settled and stinted maintenance there is nothing done that may (marke this) [except from yeere to yeare.] doe but compare these words with his narration.

Now upon these premises unfoundly laid, hee builds many clamorous constructions in his Marg. which of themselves must needs fall with the ruines of their foundation, without any trouble of mine.

Then he falls upon some of us in particular (whosoever they are) for [unspec XVI] strict requireing of so much set stipend for their lectures, or else they will not preach.

1. I must here professe solemly (as in the fight of God) for my part, [Answ.] I know not any one of us, that doth so; but (sure I am) I know some of the Contrary practise, who neither stand compounding at all, much lesse strictly (as he saith) require so much, and so much, least of all, refuse to preach, when such summes of the peoples owne voluntary profering lie unperformed; But yet notwithstanding, goe on as painefully and constantly in their preaching to them, as before.

2. Let me aske him one question, (for it is the third time he hath beene harping on this string,) that if he (on good grounds) knowes any to doe otherwise, were it not a better way, more loving and sutable to the rule of Christians admonition, (in personall failings,) to deale privatly and perti∣cularly with such brethren, (for there are but very fewe of them here, and it were easily done.) Then (in stead of telling themselves) to print it to the world to their discredit? But if he indeede knowes none (as I verily beleeve he doth not, but goes upon surmises, and so casts imputations upon them ungroundedly, the sinne is the greater, and God (I hope) will finde a time (in mercy) to deale with his conscience about it.

He holds still his old course, 1. a false Article 2. pretended proof, 3. in∣ferences at pleasure, 4 invectives against us, his arrowes are shot against a brasen wall, let him take heed, least by a divine hand they rebound back.

[unspec XVII] For the three instances in the Magent, I looke upon them as so many slaunders, for which by rule hee is to give us an account, for whereas by Pauls rule, 1 Tim. 5.19. he is to produce two or three witnesses for one ac∣cusation, yet he makes three severall accusations and that of three Chur∣ches, without any one witnesse, therefore till the true father appeares, we must still lay the brat at his doore.

Notes

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  ••nswer.
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