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Objection. THe Spirit of God in the Revelations, reproveth the Churches, for suffering such sorts of people to be amongst them?
Ans. But the Spirit of God in that Chapter,* 1.1 doth not give those Churches, a cumpulsive ••••∣wer, to force such Sectaries, to be of their opini∣ons, whether they would or no; he only taxeth them for not
objecting such people, from their society; so that the cumpulsive power which you would have the Civill Magistrate use for you, as your executioners, is a way to contradict our Saviour, who calleth his Church, a little slock; whereas you would force it, to consist of whole Nations, making no distinction betwixt it, and the world.
Obj. WOuld you have the whole power of the Church con∣sist in the reall Body of the Church, and not in some chosen out of the rest as a representative thereof?
Ans. I have formerly shewed you, that the Apostles writ them* 1.2 Epistles (which I have quoted) not to any one particular man in the Church, or to more sequestred from the whole, but he wri∣teth to all them, to whom he sent his Epistles, which was to the whole reall Body of the Church; and therefore it must needs follow, that they had all equall power.
For to whom the Apostle writ his Epistle unto, of them he re∣quireth a performance of his will.
But he writ to all the reall Body of the Church, to whom he sent (as I have heretofore cleerly proved) and not to any one a part, or to more sequestred from the whole.
Ergo he requireth such things as he writ for, to be done by the reall Body of the Church, as in 1 Cor. 5. 4. & 12. 13.
Obj. Doubtlesse such businesse, may be despatched, with more fa∣cility, by certaine Members of the Body, chosen out of the whole, as a representative Church; then otherwise it can be done, by the reall Body of the Church?
Ans. We are not to deprive the poorest or meanest Member* 1.3 of Christ, of the right, and priviledge, of his Christian Liberty, it being as due, and proper unto him, as a Crowne to a King. And yet for order sake we allow, that Church businesse may be dispatched by some eminent persons, who are Members of it, so that they be chosen by the consent of the reall Body, as in the elections of Parliaments, &c. sor in such a manner was the con∣troversie dispatched, which hapned at Antioch, viz. by chusing certaine Members out of the reall Body, by the reall Body, as ap∣peareth, Act. 15. 2. as also at Jerusalem, where the Brethren, viz.
the reall Church did the like, by sending a Committee to Antioch, as in the 25, 26, and 27. verses of that Chapter doth expresly ap∣peare) viz. Judas, and Silas, &c.
Obj. YOu boast much of that passage, but you cannot prove, that Paul, and Barnabas, and the certaine Brethren there men∣tioned, which went to Jerusalem, were sent by the reall Church at Antioch, seeing the text only saith, that they determined to send Paul, Barnabas, and the other Brethren; but what they it were, is not mentioned, and therefore it lyeth on your part to prove.
Ans. As for our boasting of that passage (if there be any) it* 1.4 is not without cause, seeing that Christ hath bestowed upon his Church, such a large priviledge from which, you of the Presbi∣tery, wilfully exclude your selves and as to that, you thinke it such a difficulty to prove, who they were, that sent the Apostles, and the Brethren from Antioch, to Jerusalem; I will partly an∣swer you by a question, and after give you other satisfaction. And as to the question, I demand of you, by whom were Judas, and Silas sent from Ierusalem, to Antioch?
Obj. It cannot be denyed, but that they were sent, by the Apo∣stles, and Elders, and Brethren at Jerusalem, for the text doth plainly, and possitively expresse it, ver. 23. but what these Brethren were, is uncertaine, they might be the rest of the representative Church at Jerusalem, for any thing that either I, or you know to the contrary.
Ans. Not so, for if you be ignorant of it, so am not I; call* 1.5 to minde the 22. ver. of that Chap. and there you shall finde, that them who are called Brethren, in the 23. ver. are called, the whole Church, ver. 22. Now if you be not satisfied, that Paul, and Barnabas, and the other Brethren, were sent by the reall Church at Antioch, as well as Iudas, and Silas, was by the Church at Ierusalem, I will thus further prove it unto you.
In the first Verse of the fifteenth Chapter we read, that cer∣taine Pharisees came from Jerusalem to Antioch, to disswade the Brethren of that place, from the Doctrine which they had been taught, by Paul, and Barnabas, who being then at Antioch, set upon these Jewes by Disputation, the matter of which Dispute (being
about Circumcision) remaining dubitable to the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of the said Church, it followeth in the same verse, that they determi∣ned to send Paul, and 〈◊〉〈◊〉▪ and certaine other 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the Church.
Obj. BƲt yet you have not 〈◊〉〈◊〉▪ that they there spoken of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 reall Church at 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
Ans. What they can it be, to whom the Apostle, and Elders, and the whole Church at Jerusalem, sent their ••nswers in wri∣ting unto? ver. 23.
But the writings which they sent, was directed, to the Brethren of the Gentiles, which were in Antioch, &c.
Ergo the Apostles, and Brethren, were sent by them.
Againe, what other they can it be, that sent Paul, and Barna∣bas, then they whom the Pharisees of Judea, would have perswa∣ded from the Doctrine, which they had formerly been taught, by Paul, and Barnabas; for if it should be otherwise under∣stood, that they were only sent, by the representative Church at Antioch, (as you would have it) then the first verse of the Chapter, should have run thus, viz.
That certaine men, comming from Jerusalem, to Antioch, taught the representative Church, at Antioch; and so it must conse∣quently follow, that the representative Church at Antioch, was only called, by the name of Brethren; and if so, what would you have the other part of the Church called, which were not of the representative Church, which consequently were not to be called by that name.
Obj. You have put me to a losse, but neverthelesse, the Indipen∣dants, and Annabaptists, ••rre in many things, which they presume to have power in, as the chosen Church officers, &c.
Ans. Instance in any particular Officer (which may concerne* 1.6 the Church) where the reall body of the Church, hath not to doe in his election.
Obj. SHew me where the reall Body of the Church at Jerusalem, had power to elect Deacons.
Ans. To prove that I instance in Act. 6. 5. where the multi∣tude
of Disciples, is said to make choyse of the seven Deacons there mentioned.
Obj. It cannot be collected from that text, that the multitude, had a voyce, in that election; but if they had, it was only in the in∣stituting of Churches, but not in a Church already established, and furnished, with all her ordinary Church Officers.
Ans. When a Church is already established, and furnished, with all her ordinary Church Officers, what need then hath it, to elect more Officers, but not to mistake your meaning; your Argument is very weake, yea very rediculous, for if the reall Body of a Church (gathered by the Apostles) were permitted that priviledge, and power, by the Apostles, themselves, yea even in the first instituting of Churches (which if ever a representative Church ought to have done of it selfe, ought the most to have been then, both by reason of the abilities of the Apostles above others, as also to have been a patterne, to all representative Chur∣ches for the future;) but seeing at that time (when if ever it should have been done, as a president to all insuing Ages;) it was not effected without a joynt interest, and concurrence, of the rest of the Brethren which appertained to that Church, then present at Jerusalem; how much more ought they now, to enjoy that priviledge which the Apostles so confirmed upon them: And seeing they were thought worthy by the Apostles, to lay the foundation of the Church; how much more ought they to be permitted, as coasistants, in the building; if in the institution of Churches then gathered out of Judisme, and Heathenisme, why not in the like gatherings now, out of Antichristianisme?
Obj. PƲt the case they had a voyce in the election, yet it follow∣eth not, that they had a voyce in the examining, or judge∣ing of their sufficiency: seeing they had not judgement, or sufficiency of themselves, to judge thereof?
Ans. To see how you will prejudicate things, How know you the abilities that them Disciples had? yea you dis-allow that judgement to be in them Disciples, which the text doth justifie of them, for how could they have made choyse of such a man, as Stephen, and the other Deacons, who is said to be full of the
Holy Ghost, if they had not had judgement to have discerned their abilities, yea those of your owne judgement allowed them Disciples, to have judgement in the examen of a Deacons life, as D. S. granteth.
Obj. If they have judgement in the examen, yet have they not judgement in his other gifts.
Ans. Wherein is the Apostles ever said to question them more, after their election by the Disciples, but that forth-with after they were so elected, and presented, by the Disciples, or Brethren, to the Apostles, and Elders,) they are said to goe to prayers, and then laid their hands on them, Act. 6. 6.
Obj. Put the case that these Deacons, were ordained, by the con∣sent of the people, yet followeth it not, that this consent, was a voyce, because it was not asked of every one apart.
Ans. Put the case it signifieth, what it doth signifie, viz. that they were ordained, by the content of the people, which is that I stand for, and for that their consent, was not a voyce (because it was not asked of every one apart) I answer, by a demand; how you know they were not asked every one apart, seeing the text is neither for it, or against it; neither is it needfull (at all times) in Counsels, to put questions, to particular voyces (when the case is cleare) as it is very probable it was to them Disciples, in that they immediatly consented; but however they agreed, we read they did agree, without any noyse of strife, or division a∣mongst themselves, which you think to be a thing impossible to be done at any such occasion. And seeing that election was so quietly carried on, why may not the like be done in these dayes?
Obj. BY your former expressions, you confesse that the Elder∣ship, and Presbitery of the Apostles, and Elders, did prin∣cipally, and authoritative act, and not the whole Church, or people, they in a lower, and lesse interest, as by way of choyse, vote, and consent.
Ans. It was very requisite, that the Apostles of our Lord and* 1.7 Saviour Jesus Christ, who was immediatly called by him, to that purpose, should have a preheminence, before them who were but mediatly called by them; but seeing there is no such imme∣diate
calling to be expected, all being now called, by one and the same mediate meanes (whether it be to the Ministry, or any o∣ther Office in the Church) it is very fitting, that the Members of each Church, so called, should likewise enjoy the same privi∣ledge, under the mediate calling, as did the other, under the im∣mediate calling.
Obj. What priviledge would you have allowed the Church now under its mediate calling?
Ans. That one Minister should not usurpe over another (and so in the rest of the Offices in the Church) neither to take place each of other, unlesse upon a Morall respect, of age, zeale, gifts, or the like.
Obj. Would you not allow the Pastors, and Elders under this mediate calling the same power, which the Apostles, and Elders had under their immediate Calling?
Ans. Yes, if they prove the like Proficients as did the Apo∣stles and Elders; but they of the Presbitery take farre more state upon them, then did the Apostles and Elders, as I have, and shall yet make appeare.
Obj. IT is manifest, that the Apostles did ordaine Presbiters, and Deacons, and gave rules concerning christian Discipline, and had power of exercising censures, over Presbiters and o∣thers, which these places of Scripture, as Act. 14. 13. Act. 6. 6. 1 Cor. 16. 1. 1 Cor. 14. 1 Cor. 5. 3. 3 Epist. Joh. 9. 10. doe prove.
Ans. It is acknowledged, but I have told you, and now tell* 1.8 you againe, that there ever went a joynt interest, and concur∣rence of the Church, in all their proceedings, which those Scrip∣tures, viz. by comparing the 15. and 23. verses of Acts 1. as also by comparing Act. 6. 3. 5. 6. Act. 13. 1, 2, 3, 4. with Act. 14. 26, 27, 28. and so in the consequences of the Discourse, in the insuing Chapter, as ver. 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30. 33. as also the whole of all Pauls Epistles, doe prove (as I have formerly declared) in that they were written to the reall Body of every Church, to whom they were sent, and therefore each thing concerned in them, was also to be performed by the whole Church, and not of any other particular part thereof, as a
representative of the whole, without elected by the whole, as hereafter I shall prove at large.
Obj. It is manifest, that Timothy, and Titus (who were medi∣ately called) had power also of exercising censures over Presbiters, and others, which these places of Scripture, 1 Tim. 5. 22. Tit. 1. 5. 1 Tim. 5. 19. Tit. 3. 10. doe witnesse.
Ans. This is also granted, but you are so sottish to thinke, that the priviledge which the Apostles permitted the reall Body of the Church in such affaires, was taken from them; had they interest in all the Apostles affaires, concerning the Church, and must they be debarred it by Timothy, and Titus? Might they be be permitted (as I said before) to ••ay the foundation, and not to build; to elect an Apostle, and not a Presbiter; to have voyce in the counsels and decrees of the Apostles, who were im∣mediatly called, and be debar••ed the like priviledge by Timothy, and Titus? doubtlesse it was the grosse, or rather wilful mistake of some proud Lucrean Priest (such as the Sinod consisted of) who first assumed that christian priviledge unto themselves, from them Scriptures.
Obj. PAul had a commanding power over Titus, chap. 1. 5. ergo one Minister over another.
Ans. Paul and the rest of the Apostles, were immediatly cal∣led,* 1.9 and therefore had a greater priviledge, then them, who were but mediatly called by them, and the Church; but there is none now so immediatly called, and so equall in power, and au∣thority, to the Apostles; and as touching the commanding po∣wer you speake of, I answer; that the Apostles under their im∣mediate calling, could not compell, or force one another, by way of authority, and would you conferre a greater power on the••r, who are but mediatly called? I see your pride will appeare a∣bove board, you have forg••t Christs answer to your Predeces∣sors in ambition, M••••. ••••. ••••, ••6, ••7, &c. as also how it was re∣lished, by the rest of the Apostles, ••••r. 24.
Obj. The Apostles sent Judas, and ••las, to Antioch, ergo they had power over them.
Ans. That is argued like the rest, for by the same reason, the
rest of the Apostles, had a commanding power over Peter, and John, (whom they are said to send to Samaria,) Act. 8. 14. as also the Church at Antioch, in sending Paul, and Barnabas, to Jerusalem, Act. 15. 2. which were to crosse the injunction of our Saviour, Mat. 20. 25. &c. therefore no rationall man can imagine, that those Missions, or sendings, were any other, then when Committees are appointed by the Parliament, out of their owne Members, to act particular businesses, proper to the House; which Committees, being Members, doe not lose any part of their power, or Membership, during their absence in the House, upon that Committee, though distant from the House; have you been seven or eight yeares so neare the House, and yet ig∣norant of such customs.
Obj. As them Members of Parliament are a Committee, the remaining Members in Parliament have a superiour power above them, they being the supreame Court.
Ans. Were it so, yet you still argue against your selfe, for that proveth that the supreame power remaineth in the real body of the Parliament, and so consequently of the Church, viz that the Church at Antioch had a supreame power, over, and a∣bove, Paul and Barnabas, as the Church at Jerusalem over Ju∣das, and Silas, being sent by them as Committees; so that you no waies advantage your selfe, by your evasion.
Obj. TImothy, and Titus, had not only power to ordaine Pres∣biters, and Deacons, but also of exercising Sensures over Presbiters, and others; as also the Angels of the Chur∣ches are said to have, Rev. 2. 3. chap.
Ans. What work you make with poore Timothy and Titus, to uphold your pride and covitousnesse, but I cannot better answer this point, then in the words of your owne Language, to his late Majesty in Carisborow Castle, only I shall paraphraise some∣thing by the buy, as in answer to your own particulars, by speak∣ing to you, as to them of the Sinod, that writ that answer, viz. I cannot say they had this power as the Apostles Substitutes, or Successors, in Presbiterian Government; or that they exercised the power they had, as being Presbiters, in the sence of you
Presbiterians; but as extraordinary Officers, or Evangelists, which Evangelists were an office in the Church, distinct from* 1.10 Pastors, and Feachers, Ephe. 4. 11. And that they were Evan∣gelists, it appeares by their being sent up and downe by the A∣postles, or taken along with them in company to severall Chur∣ches, as the necessity, and occasion of the Church did require; the one of them being expresly called an Evangelist, 2 Tim. 4. 5. and neither of them being any where in Scripture called Presbi∣terian in your sence, neither were they fixed to Ephesus, and Creet, as Presbiters in the Churches committed to them, as you would be in London, and Westminster; but removed from thence to other places, and never (for ought appeares in Scripture) re∣turned to them againe. And it seemes cleare to me, that neither their abode at Ephesus, or Creet, was for any long time, especi∣ally for so long a time as you have sitten at Westminster. Nor was it so intended by the Apostles, or our Parliament, for the Apostles imployed them there upon occasionall businesse, as his expressions intimateth, 1 Tim. 1. 3. Tit, 1. 5. which words doth not carry the fixing and constituting of a Sinod of Presbiters, in a place, as perpetuall Governours.
ANd as touching those Angels, mentioned in the Revelati∣ons,* 1.11 I answer also in words of your owne coyning, viz. that they were in no place called Presbiters, in vulgar acceptation; neither is there mention of Superiority, of one Presbiter to ano∣ther, as a Classicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Sinod, but in Diotrophes in effecting of it, as you of the Sinod did not. And for the more cleare and full satisfaction of your Worships in this point, I will briefly declare into what Officers hands the ordi∣nary standing Office of the Church were transmitted, and deri∣ved, by and from, the Apostles.
The Apostles had no Successors, in eundem gradum, the Apo∣stolicall office was not derived by Succession, being established by Christ, by extraordinary and speciall commission; but for the ordinary, and standing use of the Church, there were ordained only two orders of Offices, viz. Bishops, and Deacons, which the Apostle expresseth, Phil. 1. 1. and only of them, doth the Apostle
give the due character of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••. 1 Ti•••• 3. 2. 8. from both which places of Scripture, 〈…〉〈…〉, that besides Presbiters,* 1.12 there is no other Order, but 〈…〉〈…〉; and though the order of a Presbiter, 〈…〉〈…〉 order of a Dea••on, yet in the same order of a De••••on, or 〈◊〉〈◊〉, there was not any one superiour to another; no 〈◊〉〈◊〉 w•••• above an Apostle, no E∣vangelist above an Evangelis•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Presbiter above a Presbiter, no Deacon above a Deacon. And if ••o, how will your Classicall, Pro∣vinciall, and Nationall S••••ods ••o••d together, by which you doe as∣sume a power, beyond the power which the Apostles used in the Church, binding, and consining your fellow Presbiters, to observe your Injunctions, and Decrees, as if you were rather Apostles, then Presbiters, admitting only such Creatures as are of your owne stam••e, into the Ministry; and to such, must all the Parishes of the Kingdome subscribe, and admit of, whether they have either seene, or heard of them before or no; your approbation is sufficient, if they have but received the Popish stampe of Orders, by your Prede∣c••ssors the Bishops, they are well enough, otherwise not, how gifted soever they be.
AGaine, in your answer to his late Majesty you say, That no other Persons, or Officers of the Church, may challenge, o•• assume to themselves, such power as did the Apostles, in that re∣spect alone, viz. because the Apostles practised it (except such power belong to them in common, as well as to the Apostles by warrant of Scripture,) which that it doth, your Sinod is yet to prove. You there also confesse, that our Saviour, and his Apo∣stles, did not so leave the Church at liberty; as that any substan∣tials belonging to Church Government, which were appointed by Christ, and his Apostles, may be altered at pleasure, and then I am certaine that your Classicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Si∣nods, will not agree with the other left by Christ, and his Apo∣stles; and therefore I beseech the Honourable House of Parlia∣ment, to looke rather to the originall of those your Powers, then the succession of them. And thus you have made an Episcopall rod, to whip your owne britch.
Obj. That which is called ordination was by the Apostles, and a
power established in the Presbitery, and not in the Church as m••••re beleevers.
Ans. I have proved and shall prove, that the Brethren as well as the Presbitery, had a joynt interest and concurrency in all power which belonged to the Church.
The Apostles used no cum∣pulsive course to any.
The Apostle writ his Epi∣stles to there∣all bodies of Churches.
The meanest member of Christ ought not to be de∣prived of his Christian liberty.
The Presbite∣rians wilfully exclude them selves of the liberty which Christ hath afforded.
Paul and Bar∣nabas sent to the reall Church of Antioch.
The reall Church had power to chuse Deacons
How the A∣postle had a preheminence above others.
The reall Bo∣dy of the Church had an interest & concurrence in all things appertaining to the 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
None now e∣quall in power with the A∣postles.
Vid▪ fol. ••.
Vid. fol. 7••▪
Vi••, fol. 8.