The churches and ministery of England, true churches and true ministery. Cleared, and proved, in a sermon / preach'd the 4th of May at Wiviliscombe; before a numerous congregation assembled together to hear the opposition, which had been long threatned to be made that day, by Mr Collier and others of his party, who, with the greatest strength the West would afford them, were present at the sermon. Wherein were these five things undeniably proved: 1. That a mixture of prophane and scandalous persons with reall saints, is not inconsistent with the Church of God or a true church. ... 5. And then, they also must needs be guilty, who forsake true churches and a lawfull ministry, to follow and hear unsent preachers. By Francis Fullwood minister of the Gospel at Staple Fitzpane in the county of Somerset. Before it there is an epistle and preface, shewing the manner, and a narrative subjoyned shewing the substance of the dispute after the sermon, (both which lasted nine hours.) Set forth by the ministers that were at the dispute, and attested under their hands.

A Brief Narration of the heads of that long (yet happy) Discourse, betwixt M. Fullwood (assisted sometimes with M. Wood, M. Howe, &c.) and M. Collier with the strength of his party in the West, upon May 4. 1652. at Wivilis∣combe, commonly known by the name of Wilscome in Somerset-shire.

M. FƲLLWOOD, whose turn it was to preach there that day, having ended the Sermon, which precedes this Narrative: the Adverso party flockt together as neer as they could to the Pulpit: and M. Collier in the Name of the rest, declared himself unsatisfied touching what had been delivered.

We desired them to have a little more patience, and to at∣tend the stating of the question, touching the Ministery, which M. How had on purpose provided for our Discourse that day, in private: they replied again, that there was more matter in the Sermon delivered, then we should be able to discusse that day: they would not yeeld to the motion of the stating the que∣stion, but with a kinde of violent importunity urg'd, that the Minister that had preacht, would maintain his doctrine: to which at length we yeelded, and bid them object: having cho∣sen Moderators; M. Wood on ours, and a Captain on their part.

Coll.

M. Collier began to this purpose: I shall go through the Ser∣mon in order: the first point was; That openly scandalous and prophane persons with true beleevers were not inconsistent with a true Church; but this I shall not meddle with.

Full.

I thank you for that Sir, yet if you have any thing against it, I pray you say on.

Coll.

No, I will let that passe; and come unto the second, which

was, That the Churches of England are true Churches: which I have four things to except against; 1. That their constitution was false. 2. Their members are false. 3. Their Ordinances are false. 4. Their Ministery is false.

Full.

I deny them all: and first I deny our constitution to be false; and would have you prove it.

Col.

You were falsly constituted in Q. Eizabeths daies, for you were made true Churches by the civill power, the command of the Queen; and not by the Ministry of the Word, as you should have been.

Full.

That is denied: for we were not reclaim'd from Popery by the Queens command, without, but with the assistance of the godly Protestant Ministery (as History makes to appear) and you cannot deny.

Coll.

But did not the people turn for fear of the power of the Ma∣gistrate? and I hope you will not say that the Cavaliers are good Subjects, and truly converted to the Parliament, because they out of fear subscribe the Engagement.

Full.

To say, that all did turn for fear is but a slander, and cannot be proved; but however I had thought you had spoken all the while of a visible Church, do you require reall faith, to constitute a visible Church? I say, that the outward subjection of the Ca∣valiers is enough to make them visible subjects; and the out∣ward profession of Christ, is enough to render men externall members of the visible Church.

* 1.1 Besides, the renoun••ing of Popery, and embracing the Pro∣testant Religion, was a voluntary act of the whole Land, in their Representative the Parliament, that sate in the first year of Q. Elizabeths Reign.

Full.

M. Collier hearken to the Gentleman, he is a States-man, and knows what belongs to History better then you or I.

Coll.

But you should have been constituted by the Ministery of the Word.

Full.

I have told you we were: there were three special acts of grace seen in our conversion from Popery; the first was upon the heart of the Queen, inclining her Majesty to propagate the true and Protestant Religion; the second was, in inclining the people to be some what wrought on, by the command and influence of the

good Queen; the last now was seen, in making effectuall and per∣fecting the former, by the Protestant Ministry. * 1.2

With this they seemed to acquiesce, urging their great obje∣ction no more at all, which may hint unto us, that the most rea∣dy and surest way to foil such adversaries, is by dealing with them in their own principles; which was M. Fullwoods effectu∣all course throughout: namely, to give them what they desire (by way of medium) and then to wrest the weapon out of their hand, or to soil them in their own play: thus it was here, sup∣posing (as they would, though they can never prove) that our Churches were constituted in Q. Elizabeths time (who were indeed reclaimed then, but constituted Centuries of years be∣fore) and that there was no other means to bring a people to outward profession (which fouly crosseth their own principles, as appeareth afterwards:) or that the Civill Magistrate is to have no hand in the reformation of a Church, which though supposed may not be granted: or that, to conclude, that we cannot be a true Church unlesse we know the means and man∣ner of its constitution, which is indeed absurd: if the essentiall marks of a true Church can be demonstrated; as was in our Churches in the morning: Yet with all these (one of which they cannot possibly maintain) they could not wield their objecti∣on: the very medium it self, viz. that we were not converted or reclaim'd by the Ministery of the Word, being flatly false.

Then they broke off somewhat abruptly from this to In∣fant-Baptism; and being there was nothing objected by any of them afterwards, against the two next par∣ticulars; (Our Members and Ordinances) we suppose their Discourse of Infant-Baptism was in stead of them.

Coll.

Infant-Baptism is unlawfull.

Full.

Why should we step so large? What is Infant-Baptism to the businesse in hand? however take your liberty, and prove Infant-Baptism if you can to be unlawfull, as you say it is.

Coll.

That that hath neither precept nor president in the word is un∣lawfull, but Infant-Baptism hath neither, &c. therefore it is un∣lawfull.

Full.

I deny both your Propositions; For the first, I say, it is not

unlawfull to go to Taunton, and yet you cannot shew me a pre∣cept or president in the Word for it.

Hadridge.

But M. Fullwood do not you know we speak of Ordi∣nances?

Full.

However M. Hadridge the Proposition is false, and deserves correction: But (to come as near as you would have me) I pray tell me what you mean by Precept here, whether an expresse command, or such a command as fals from the Word by just consequence; if you require an expresse command in so many words, (though I grant that requisite to the substance of an Or∣dinance, as this of Baptism, yet) this is not absolutely requisite for every circumstance that belongs to an Ordinance; not to the circumstance of time, when the children of professors should be baptized; whether in Infancy or riper years, when we can prove it by just consequence; for though the Ordinance of inclination be changed, Circumcision into Baptism; yet that the time of ad∣ministration is changed, you can never prove: so that then, sup∣pose your proposition be touching Ordinances, it being onely touching a circumstance and not the substance of an Ordinance, 'tis false still. Nothing of answer was made to this Reply; but M. Collier went from this to prove the minor, viz. That Infants had no command to be baptized.

Col.

There's no command for baptizing Infants, for beleevers are commanded to be baptized.

Full.

This doth not conclude at all: for though beleevers are, yet it doth not follow, That none but beleevers are to be baptized, which you are to prove: We say, actuall beleevers not yet bapti∣zed, are to be baptized; but we say also, that they and their Chil∣dren are to be baptized; it behooves you, if you can to produce a command, wherein beleevers onely are commanded to be ba∣ptized.

Coll.

The Text saith, He that beleeveth and is baptized, shall be sa∣ved.

Full.

Alas! this is no command at all, but a Proposition only: much lesse that beleevers only are to be baptized; and the truth is the force of this Proposition is onely this, That none but beleevers shall be saved, not baptized, or rather, those that beleeve, as well as receive the Ordinance of baptism, shall assuredly be sa∣ved;

but as this excludes not children from salvation, so neither from baptism.

Coll.

But we pray you then, if there be a command for baptizing of Infants, shew it.

Full.

This is indeed somewhat unreasonable M. Collier; especially considering how weary you may easily imagine me to be, who preacht, and since that disputed so long with you; however give me leave for a little respite to choose a second, that may stead me a while, and you shall have what liberty you can de∣sire.

Col.

We agree, choose whom you will.

Full.

I choose my Moderator, I pray you M. Wood give them a command for Infant-Baptism.

Wood.

Choose you now, whether you will oppose or defend M. Col∣lier, 'tis an indifferent thing to me.

Col.

I desire you will shew us a command for Infant-baptism.

Wood.

You may reade a command for Infant-baptism, in Mat. 28. 19. Go teach all Nations, baptizing them, &c. whence I argue thus.

Where we finde a generall command in the Word, we may not restrain or limit the same without warrant from the Word.

But here we have a generall command, Baptize all Nations.

And therefore we may not restrain or limit it to beleevers onely, without we can shew a warrant from the Word so to do.

Col.

'Tis restrain'd to Disciples: for in the Greek, it is disciple all Nations, baptizing them: first they must be made disciples, and then baptized.

Wood.

You cannot conclude from the order of words in Scripture: for in Mark 'tis said baptize and teach; whence we may argue as well, that we must baptize before we teach. 2. I am very glad that you so translat•• the words; for children are capable of being discipled, and therefore baptiz'd.

Col.

Children have no right at all to Baptism.

Wood.

That I shall prove unto you thus, Those to whom the spirit of grace, the Kingdom of God, and the blessing of Christ belongs; to those the Ordinance of Baptism belongs; but to some children;

••he spirit of grace, the kingdom of God, and the blessing of Christ belongs: therefore to them belongs the Ordinance of Baptism.

Col,

I deny your minor.

Woad.

For the first, John was sanctified from the womb.

Col.

That is, he was separated to an Office.

Wood.

No, for we reade of an inward work of the spirit, the childe leaped for joy in the womb; but the two other are more clearly proved in that known Text: Christ took little children into his arms, and blessed them, and said, for of such is the Kingdome of God.

Facy.

That was meant of men like Children, in harmlesnesse, meek∣nesse, &c.

Wood.

How, good Sir, do we think that they brought men to Christ in their arms? or that Christ took men into his arms, and blessed them?

2. If our Saviour should urge them to suffer little children to come to him, because of such is the kingdom of Heaven, and yet mean by such here, men like to children, the reason here were very improper, and would no way answer the com∣mand.

Col.

But what is this to Infant-baptism all this while?

Wood.

Alas! I bring not this to prove the baptizing of Infants im∣mediatly; but to prove the minor denied, viz. That Children are part of the Kingdom of God, and by consequence onely, that they may be baptized.

Here they stuck untill they found out a way to get themselves out of the mire, by desiring to return to M. Fullwood again, who they pleaded had had some respite, which was accordingly yeelded unto.

Full.

You cry out for a Command for Infants-baptism, I will give you two.

The first shall be the same, my brother begun with, otherwise applied, it is Mat. 28. 19. Go disciple (as you intepret well) all Nations baptizing them: Here is a cleer and expresse com∣mand

to baptize all such as are made Disciples: according to your own interpretation of the place; but now children of professors are disciples (de jure before, de facto by baptism;) therefore here is a clear and express command for baptizing the children of Professors.

Coll.

I deny that children are discipled.

Full.

Those that are members of the visible Church are dis∣ciples: but children of professors are members of the vi∣sible Church: therefore children of professors are disciples.

Coll.

I deny, that children of professors are members of the Church.

Full.

If children of professors had the priviledge of being Church∣members once; and that priviledge was never taken away from them, they have it still; but children of professors had this pri∣viledge of being Church-members once, and it was never yet taken away from them, therefore they have it still.

Coll.

That priviledge of there's is repealed.

Full.

If this priviledge of children be repealed by God, it must be re∣pealed either in the Old or New Testament, but it was never repea∣led in the Old or new Testament; therfore it is not repealed yet.

Col.

'Tis repealed in the New Testament.

Full.

If so; It is repealed in the four Evangelists, Acts of the A∣postles, Epistles, or the Revelation; but in none of these, there∣fore not at all.

Coll.

It is repealed in Gal. 3. 16. Now to Abraham and his seed are the promises made; he saith not, and to seeds, as of many, but as of one, and to thy seed, that is Christ: Now therefore all the pro∣mises are resolv'd and center'd in Christ, and we have none but what we have from his hand.

Full.

It is true, that all the promises are resolv'd and center'd in Christ, but that is, in Christ considered in Aggregato, that is, Christ consisting of head and members, and which cannot be de∣nied, because else, all the Covenant of grace and promises, be∣ing * 1.3 centered in the pe••son of Christ, as you would urge, there should be none le••t for the body of Christ, in the daies of the Go∣spel, Now consider, what can you gain by this Text? the mea∣ning is, that the former Covenant of grace, and promises made to Abraham, are all centred in Christ; that is, in Christ, both head and members, in the daies of the Gospel, as is better expla••••ed

by the 14. ver. of the same Chapter; the blessing of Abraham is come upon the Gentiles through Christ Jesus: that is, the promises and priviledges of our Father Abraham, the typicall head of the Jewish Church, is come upon the Churches of the Gentiles by Jesus Christ, the mystical head of the Gentile Church; and were not the promises made to Abraham and his seed? and did not the priviledge of being Church-members, belong to A∣braham and his seed? and therefore the same promises and pri∣viledges belong to professors of the Gentiles and their seed also.

Again, were this Text for you at all, it would onely serve to prove, that Christs spirituall seed have the priviledge of being Church-members alone: the contrary we have proved in the Sermon above, shewing you that not only hypocrites but scan∣dalous persons were members of the Church of God at Corinth, against which you have nothing to say, they being members of the visible Church, are members of the visible body of Christ, and by consequence have visible interest in the promises and pri∣viledges, which you say are centred in Christ.

I desire you M. Collier to shew us a better Text then this, therefore, for the repealing of Infants Church-membership.

Coll.

But this is clear'd by the last verse of the same Chapter; if ye be Christs, then are ye Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Full.

This text is clearer against you then the former was: what doth it say? it saith, that the Gentiles by becoming Christs or Christians, they become thereby Abrahams seed, that is, by being united to Christ really, they become Abrahams reall seed: and by being united to Christ visibly, we become Abrahams visible seed, and then accordingly we are interested in the promises and priviledges of Abraham, being heirs according to the promise.

Hadridge.

There is now neither Jew nor Gentile, bond nor free, male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Full.

I thank you for that M. Hadridge, a most clear Text to prove the partition wall is broken down betwixt the Jews and Gen∣tiles; and that the Gentile Churches being now made one with the Jewish (not as Jewish, but as a Church) have a right to all the priviledges of the Jewish Church: and among the rest al∣so, to Church-membership for themselves and children: if you

have ever a better Text, I pray produce it, for these will not doe.

Coll.

I pray then consider Rom. 2. 28, 29. He is not a Jew that is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outwardly in the flesh, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly, &c.

Full.

Alas this cannot be strictly and properly understood, but by way of Comparison; for a man cannot be a Jew and not a Jew: that would be harsh: the meaning is, that he is not a Jew in Gods account; that is, such a one as shall have * 1.4 praise of God, that is onely a member of the visible Church: God looks chief∣ly to the heart: or rather the Apostle is abolishing the Ordi∣nance of Circumcision, and winding up their hearts to the truth of it, Circumcision that is of the heart: not that in the dayes of the Gospel God doth so much regard the heart, as that he ap∣pointed no outward Ordinances, no visible Church, nor visible worship; or not members of the visible Church: but such as are Circumcised in heart: None of which you will offer to say; and yet the Text taken your way, offers to prove nothing else, which I pray you consider. But you must look for another Text: this onely shewes that Circumcision it self is abolish't, but the Covenant of Circumcision, that abides, as commanded upon Abraham and his seed, both of Jewes and Gentiles for ever, Gen. 17. 9.

Col.

But that Covenant was Circumcision, ver. 10.

Full.

Give the holy Ghost leave to interpret his own words; and we read verse 11. That Circumcision was onely a token of the Covenant: and though that sign is vanisht, the thing remains: unlesse you will make the substance of the Covenant in the time of the Law one thing, and in the time of the Gospel another thing: and so make two Covenants of Grace.

Col.

I will not meddle with that now.

Full.

But you must give us another Text, or else, we shall con∣clude, That Children of Professors have the priviledge of being Church-members still.

Hadridge.

Matth. 3. Think not to say with your selves, We have Abra∣ham to our Father; the Ax is laid to the root of the Tree; which hath cut down all former priviledges.

Full.

Alas, have not all the other Scriptures, which your selves have brought, proved that we have Abraham to our Father stil? and that we have no Promises or Priviledges at all, but as we are Abrahams seed?

Had.

But we must doe the works of Abraham, that we may become Abrahams seed.

Full.

True; but as doing the works of Abraham indeed, we be∣come his reall seed, and have a reall right unto his priviledges: so by doing the works of Abraham in shew onely, we become his seed in shew. Which though it will not satisfie God, who looks to the heart, yet it gives them a title to outward privi∣ledges, from the hands of men, who judge according to appea∣rance: The meaning of the place, with the extent of it, is plainly this; That God requires more exactnesse and strictness in these dayes of the Gospel, then he did in the times of igno∣rance under the Law: not that the Gospel can any way possible deprive the Church of any Priviledge, which made Grace to abound, and not to diminish in this regard; and therefore not this priviledge of having our Children Church-members with us.

Col.

It is a Priviledge that our children are not Baptized; and that in many respects.

Full.

What are they I pray you?

Col,

1. It is a priviledge for our Children to be in that conditi∣on that God would have them.

2. Again, Because when your Children are once Baptized, you make it serve to make them secure, telling them that now they are in a happy condition.

Full.

Here are two priviledges for our Children not to be Bapti∣zed. But to the first, I say, is it not a goodly priviledge for the Damned Devils to be in Hell? yet that is the Condition God will have them in.

And for the second, 'tis a meer slander: for as we beleeve, so we tell our Children, that they are obliged by Baptism, to serve God, own Christ, forsake the World, resist the Devil, mor∣tifie their flesh the more; which if they neglect, their condition is worse than the very Heathens.

Thus we have made good the first command of Matthew 28. 19.

We shall now proceed to the other; which you have in Acts 2. 38, 39. Repent and be baptized every one of you, &c. For the promise is to you, and to your Children, &c. Whence I argue:

The command of the Sign, is as large as the Promise of the thing signified; but the promise is to you and your children: therefore the command of Baptism reacheth to you and your children too, upon your repentance: as to Abraham, when he himself believed, God commands him to be circumcised himself and his Children: So here, when you repent, both you and your Chil∣dren are taken into Covenant, and you are commanded to re∣ceive Baptism for your selves and Children. Repent ye parents, and be baptized every one of you, both Parents and Chil∣dren (who have call'd for Judgement upon your selves and Children) for the Promise, notwithstanding, is to you, and to your Children.

Col.

But this promise here is a promise of the Spirit.

Ful.

And of the forgivenesse of sins too, ver. 38.

Coll.

But that promise however is a spiritual promise.

Ful.

Yet the promise which is said to be, to you and your Children there, is more then Spirituall: indeed, it is onely spiritually ap∣plyed at this time: and why? Because those to whom it is ap∣plyed are at this time onely spiritually wounded, pricked to the hears: yet the promise here, is indeed the Covenant which hath both temporall and spirituall promises; which is very evident, if we turn to the second of Joel; out of which the Text is taken: which Chapter is almost made up of temporal and spiritual pro∣mises, as if it were an Exposition of the Covenant. Which Chap∣ter was openly read, and found to be so.

So this command was ended too: for they being urged to say what they could for themselves, they refused to say any more, but would leave what had been said to the judgement of the people; we being somewhat imboldened by their parties si∣lence, referr'd it to the people, as they desired; and asked them whether they were not satisfied with what had been said for in-Infant Baptism? In Answer to which, severall persons cryed out, They were; and not one of their partie said any thing to

the contrarie; but one who call'd to the people, and asked them, Why they would say they were satisfied, when they were not: Hereupon, as we remember, Master Hadridg stood up and asked these two Sophisticall questions.

Had.

I have three Children, which were never sprinkled, and I would fain know what Command I have omitted: I my self have been dipt; and I would fain know what Command I have broken.

Ful.

As for your own being Dipt or Rebaptiz'd, you have broke the Command: that is easily inferr'd from the words of * 1.5 the Apostle, there is but one Baptism; for you have had two. And for the neglecting the baptizing of your Children, you have plainly omitted the commands that have been prest for Infant Baptism, which stand as yet unshaken, notwithstanding what hath been moved against them.

Now we have given you these Commands; we shall shew you example also; which hath a probable Argument in it, that Children were baptized by the Apostles: It was, That we have many examples of whole houses that were Baptized; and surely those times were very barren, if there should happen to be so many housholds without one child: and if it be probable, that there was but one Child, in all these Houses, as it is a very probable Argument for Infant Baptism, since the whole house∣holds (where ever they came) were Baptized, with the chief of their houses, none ever excepted against, or rejected. There was some jangling about some particular houses, but nothing of moment said to the Argument.

Then some indigested Objections were made against Sprinkling. The sum of the Answer to them, was,

• 1. We do not exclude either Dipping or Sprinkling, though we conceive that Baptism is rather a washing, then either Dip∣ping or Sprinkling,
• 2. 'Tis out of Charitie, (as well as judgement) that we doe not Dip Infants; and we have Scripture-warrant for it; I will have mercy, and not sacrifice.
• 3. The word 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 signifieth Sprinkling or Washing, as

• well as Dipping: they Baptized Beds, and Cups and Tables, &c. And when Beds and Tables were Ceremoniously wash'd, or Baptiz'd; no man will say they Dipt them under Wa∣ter.

The Adversaries unwilling to say any more against Infant-Baptism, were urg'd to return to their first Discourse, touching the Churches; and say what they could against our Ministerie, the thing mainly intended: to which they agree••▪ but Master Fullwood being over-wearie desi∣red respit: it was urged that Master How, who had sufficiently provided for it, whose exercise was gladly and thankfully read and transcribed by several Godly Ministers about us, might state the Question, touching the Mi∣nisterie; which was, Whether the present Ministerie of the Churches now in England, be the true Ministerie of Jesus Christ exclu∣sively. Which they refused, pretending that would be too long; but gave way, that Ma∣ster How might bring an Argument or two for the Ministerie of England: for which he engaged, and performed as followeth.

How.

Those that are Instruments in the hands of Christ for the work of Conversion, are the Ministers of Christ, 1 Corinth. 9. 2. But the Ministers of England, are Instruments in the hands of Christ, for the work of Conversion, Rom. 10. 11. Ergo. A∣gain, Those that come in at the door of the Sheepfold, are the true Shepheards. But the present Ministers of England came in at the door of the Sheepfold; therefore they are true Shep∣heards.

Coll.

I deny the Minor.

How.

Those that come in after the mind of Christ, come in at the door of the sheepfold. But we come in after the mind of Christ; therefore, &c.

Col.

I deny the Minor.

How.

Those that come in an Apostolicall way, come in after the minde of Christ; but so we come in.

Col.

I deny the Minor.

How.

Those whose substantialls in point of Call, were such as the Apostles acted by in point of Ordination, came in the A∣postolick way. But it was so with us.

Col.

I deny the Minor.

How.

Four things onely are required in Scripture so far as I can ••••nd, to make a compleat Apostolicall Ordination. First, Exa∣mination for Abilities, 2 Timoth. 2. 3. Secondly, The Savour of good report from the Church, Acts 16. 2. Thirdly, a time of seeking to God, Acts 14. 23. Fourthly, Imposition of hands, 1 Tim. 4. 14.

Col.

You fail in the End.

How.

Personall failings do not multiply the substance of the Act. And I pray you give me a better Answer.

Col.

You want a lawfull Authority, if you have all those parti∣culars. And besides, you are not the Ministers of Christ, because you doe not doe the work of Christ.

Master Fulwood step'd up and said.

Ful.

Master How, I confesse I shall doe you an unkindnesse; however be pleased to let me speak with Master Collier a lit∣tle. Master How, having received no satisfactory Answer, gladly gave leave.

With your leave Master Collier; If I do not w••th this ve∣ry Argument of yours prove our Ministerie to be of Christ, I'le be Baptized by you to Morrow. Thus; Those that doe the work of Christ, they are the Ministers of Christ. But the Mi∣nistesr of England doe the work of Christ; therefore they are the Ministers of Christ.

As for the Major, your own Argument grants that; and for the Minor, viz. That the Ministers of England doe the work, of Christ is easily proved, if we consider what the work of the Ministery of Christ is; namely, to beget and increase

Faith; to Convert and Edifie, as Romans 10. 14. Ephesians 41. 2. Which none can well deny the Ministers of England to doe.

Coll.

Men may be converted many other wayes then by the Preaching of the word: The Woman of Samaria brought ma∣ny to the Faith.

••ull.

You can never prove, that any person was truly Conver••¦ed by that Womans Discourse: Indeed she prevailed upon them for a faint Historicall faith, not a true justifying Faith: for none can imagine, that their faith exceeded the womans report.

Again, the Case is extraordinary, and no man can argue from thence to an ordinarie case. We say that Conversion is not ordinarily wrought but by the sent ordained Ministery; which that, Rom. 10. 14, 15. doth maintain for ever, without any colourable contradiction.

Col.

I, but your Ordination came by succession from Rome.

Full.

That Objection I fully answered (I thought) in my Ser∣mon.

Col.

You say the Church of Rome was a true Church, till the Councel of Trent.

Full.

Suppose it; you cannot deny it: though the stresse of the An∣swer lay not there.

Coll.

How could Luther without blame, leave a true Church?

Full.

Though the Church of Rome, was a true Church when Lu∣ther came off, yet she was a Church very corrupt. First, in Doctrine and Worship; in which he could not joyn, but hee must partake of her sins. Secondly, in Discipline; if he would not embrace her corruptions, he must venture his life to stay there.

Coll.

Could Rome be a true Church, and yet offer to kill so good a man?

Full.

As well as the People of the Jewes, when they would Cruci∣fie Christ.

Col.

But were the Jewes a True Church, till Christ his Death?

Ful.

Yes, else there had been no true Church in the world

at that time, which is an Article of our Creed, wherein we be∣leeve the universal Church.

Col.

True.

Wood.

I see you can say nothing against our Call: I pray Master Collier now prove your own Call.

Col.

I grant that none may preach, but such as are sent; 〈◊〉〈◊〉 I believe that many are sent to Preach that are not in Of∣fice.

Ful.

I pray you look over the Scripture, and see whether you can find one Text for that, Master Collier.

Col.

The Prophets were not in Office in the time of the Law, yet preacht.

Ful.

The Prophets were in Office: the word Prophet is a name of Office, though extraordinary.

Col.

But Paul preacht before he was called.

Ful.

Not so; he preacht indeed before he received an Ordinary Call, but not before he had an extraordinary Call: for Christ, when he came to call him to be a Christian, he made him a Minister; as is plainly expressed by Paul himself, Acts 26.

They answered no more; and indeed it was now late: we did mu••ually congratulate the happy meeting and discourse of the day.

Col.

I blesse God, that we have met with so moderate a man as you Master Fulwood.

Ful.

Truely, I did not expect to finde a man so sober and ratio∣nall among you, as you have been Master Collier.

Barb.

Master Fulwood, I professe seriously in the presence of God, and all his people, that I love you as well as the dearest friend I have in the world.

Ful.

I thank you heartily Master Barber: but, truely, Master Templer I thought not to finde such incivilities from your hands.

Templ.

Truely Master Fulwood, I little thought to have heard you dispute so well, when I heard your Sermon.

Ful.

Alas! then I preacht; and now I dispute.

There were kinde Salutes on both parts, and a fair end. Onely some were urgent when we were parting, that they would prove their re-baptizing; For which they brought, Luke 19. To which Master Wood gave several Answers, and nothing of moment was replyed. So the Company parted.

This we publish as a true, though short, sum of that large Dispute.

Ministers, & Witnesses.

• M^r How.
• M^r Wood.
• M^r Bindon.
• M^r Wakely.
• M^r Ball.
• M^r Darby.

FINIS.

Notes

• * 1.1

  M. Thomas Gorges a very worthy, godly, and learned Gentleman, and Justice of Peace in the County.
• * 1.2

  •• Several Pro∣testant Mini∣sters of Eng∣land before Q. Maries daies, fled in the time of persecution, and returned in the begin∣ning of Eliza∣beths reign, and preaching all over England, reclaim'd the people from Popery.
• * 1.3

  Compare the Text with 1 Cor. 12. 12.
• * 1.4

  Vers. ult.
• * 1.5

  Suppose I should say, I have two chil∣dren that have been both of them sprink∣led, what com∣mand have I broken? And for my own part I was ne∣ver Dipt or Baptizd again, what com∣mand have omitted? What Answer can you make?