A quartron of reasons, composed by Doctor Hill, vnquartered, and prooued a quartron of follies: by Francis Dillingham, Bachelour of Diuinitie. August, in Senten ...

The 11. reason: Triall of truth. (Book 11)

That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spi∣rits, as also to determine and to decide doubts, we confesse, M. D. Trie all things, saith Paul:* 1.1 and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits. But the question is, whether you are the Church or no? Quid ergo facturi sumus? what shall we doe? I answer with Augustine propounding this question,* 1.2 that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word, qui veritas est, & optimè novit corpus suum, who is truth, & best knoweth his bodie. Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit, and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe, as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne, and many tearmes, as person, Trinitie, consubstantiall, Sa∣craments; I will answer these points seuerally. And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church, (as the Romane church) Catholike. The Romane church, if it were a true church, is but a part of the catholike church. It is Catholike saith Augustine, because it is per totum, through the whole world.* 1.3 Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name, giueth this, Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa; because it is diffused tho∣rough the whole world. Is it all one to say, I beleeue the Catholike Church, and to say, I beleeue the Romane church? To leaue this matter, and to come to your speech, that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians, to be the true word of God indeede, but vpon the Romane churches credit. First, such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine, to whome S. Augustine answered,* 1.4 Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas, breuiter vobis responde∣mus, inde nos scire, vnde & vos scitis, illas literas esse Manichaei: If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings, we shape you this short answer; as you know that your writings

are of the heretike Manichee. Secondly, I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scrip∣tures; if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures, then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them, and not è con∣tra. Thirdly, we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit, for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha, as well as the true Canon of the bible: for the Romane church doth receiue them. Fourthly, we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues. Many men by the hea∣uenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them be∣fore they know which is the true church.* 1.5 Mantuan de pat. l. 3. c. 2. saith thus, Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus, quòd diuinam inspiratio∣nem intra accipimus; we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures, because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God. He that will despise the Scriptures, will despise the Church. He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it, will not be∣leeue it because the Church teacheth the same. The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum na∣tura. The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ, before he wrought any miracle, because it was testified by the scriptures. Ioh. 1.46. Adam and others beleeued without the church. Our Sauiour Christ preached, Repent and beleeue the Go∣spel, which some did without the Church. Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and o∣thers were reiected, because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat, & ipsa sententia & propositum eorum, quae in illis adferuntur, plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant; the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner, and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much dif∣fer from the truth of right doctrine. The consent of Scriptures, the miracles and prophesies, with many other arguments, draw a man to credit the same; yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them, perswadeth not a little. Sacris Scripturis (saith Bellarmine) nihil est notius,* 1.6 nihil certius; there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures. Read Bellarmine your selfe, M. Doctor, that he may satisfie you in this point. But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church, doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures? how can the church rightly per∣swade vs to beleeue, but by preaching and producing of scrip∣tures?

Ergo the scriptures are of much more force, then the bare name of a church. For propter quod vnumquod{que} tale est illud magis tale; if the church induceth vs to beleeue, then the scriptures doe much more, because the church doth it by the scriptures. The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe, neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof. The Sa∣maritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman,* 1.7 but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe: so the Church may bring one to beleeue, but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe. The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you: his word is commoveret, for he saith; As there were many things which held him in the faith, so if he were an infidel, he would not beleeue the Gospel, vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him. ergo not onely the church: and he speaketh, if he were an infidell, as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest; Si invenies aliquem, if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel: what wouldest thou doe, saying to thee I doe not beleeue? then immediatly followeth your sentence, I would not beleeue vnlesse, &c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine,* 1.8 Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur, at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church, being a stran∣ger in the earth, before the authoritie of the Gospel, seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things, and the Gospel cannot. Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach; because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures. To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie:* 1.9 Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose: is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures? God forbid: whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6. booke of his Confessions, shall finde that he did be∣leeue the Scriptures for themselues. In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor, he writeth thus; Quid putas faciendum, nisi vt eos relinquamus, qui nos invitant certa cognoscere, & postea imperant vt incerta credamus, & eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere, quod nondum valemus intueri, vt ipsa side valentiore facti, quod credimus intelligere mereamur, non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus men∣tem nostram firmante, atque illuminante? what haue we to doe but to forsake them, that inuite vs to know certaine things, and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things, and to follow thē which

inuite vs, first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold, that beeing made stronger through faith, we may attaine to vn∣derstand that we beleeue now, not men, but God himselfe, con∣firming and lightning our minde inwardly. The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue, otherwise we shall wauer and stagger. To conclude this point, many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures, is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures? nothing lesse. The three Creedes we receiue, because the doctrine is contained in the scrip∣tures: but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede, for he ma∣keth but two places, vitam aeternam, & ignem aeternum. Omnes ho∣mines resurgent cum corporibus suis, & reddituri sunt de factis pre∣prijs rationem, & qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam, qui verò malè in ignem aeternum. All men shall rise with their owne bodies, and shall giue an account of their deedes, and they which haue done well, shall goe into life euerlasting, & they which haue done euill, into euerlasting fire. You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell, and not in the fire of hell. Thus if you had bin wise, M. Doctor, you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds. If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed, I should be ouerlong. That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne,* 1.10 Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures. What an ignorant Doctor is this, that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture? Touching the tearmes, as person, Trinitie, consubstantiall, Sacraments, what if they be not in Scriptures? the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is con∣tained in scriptures. If these wordes were necessarie to saluation, then men were damned before they were inuented, which I thinke the Doctor will not grant: for many beleeued the things, although the names were not extant. Augustine calleth the bookes of To∣bie, and other, Canonical, because they were read to edification: for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers, as I haue before produced. In the place by you cited; he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches, preferred before those which some Churches receiue not: hence it is manifest, that he maketh not all of equall authoritie.* 1.11 Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read, so it be non inutiliter & sobriè, not vn∣profitably and soberly. Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes, if they were of like authoritie? And in his booke de praed.

Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome, that the brethren did reiect it, & there he contendeth not much for it. If it had bin Canonicall, he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it. Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical. Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scrip∣tures; we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church: he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world. But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures, you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt, and haue e∣stablished a Latin translation, differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke: and is not this to alter the scriptures? If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation, I should be very tedious. I will name one: in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said, Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe: these words [by himselfe] are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation; what an intollerable corruption is this? But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme:

• They which establish a corrupt translation, alter the scrip∣tures, or at least a iot of the same:
• But the Papist establish a corrupt translation: Ergo.

And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine, because it is Hieroms, and yet will not allow, his translations of the Psalmes: what dealing with the Scriptures is this? he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse, and yet they haue defied it. You further demand, why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things? I answer, first that (as I haue prooued) we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues: secondly it is a ridiculous consequent, We beleeue the church of Rome in this point, ergo we must doe so in all other. To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe, M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points, will you doe so in all? I would it were so. That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares, and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes, are dete∣stable vntruths. But I pray you, Syr, were not the scriptures preser∣ued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church? did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures? and yet (to vse your phrase) our Sa∣uiour wrested thē out of their hands, not as iust, but as vniust pos∣sessours

of them. The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ, that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter. The first is, how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture, and which not? This question I haue at large answered in this chap∣ter, and therefore I will not repeat my answer. Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant, how he knoweth the translati∣ons to be true? I answer, that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated. The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures, certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned, that the scrip∣tures in the English tongue are the scriptures. The third question it, why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins? I answer, we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures. But M. Doctor, because you haue po∣sed vs with so many questions, now I will pose you with one like∣wise. Why doe you receiue your latin translation, rather vpon this Popes authoritie, then vpon that Popes authoritie? Pope Sixtus saith,* 1.12 before the Vatican edition their vulgar latin translation was schismatis occasio, the occasion of heresie. Now Pope Clements e∣dition is approoued, farre differing from Sixtus edition. What certaintie then haue Papists, who will take the scriptures now vp∣on this, now vpon that Popes warrant? But I reduce your argu∣ment into a syllogisme:

• They which haue no certaine triall of truth, are not the Church:
• But the Protestants haue no certaine triall. Ergo.

I denie the assumption, for we haue the scriptures which are the infallible rule of truth. Our Sauiour Christ vanquished the deuill by the scriptures. The Bereans tried the Apostles doctrine by the scriptures:* 1.13 and may not we so doe? S. Augustine writeth thus: I∣sta controuersia iudicem riquirit, this controuersie requireth a iudge: who shall be iudge? he answereth, Christ; Iudicet Christus, let Christ be iudge. He doth name neither Pope, nor Romish church. For, as he saith in another place, Scriptura est eminentissima autho∣ritatis,* 1.14 the scriptures are of a most soueraigne and peerelesse au∣thoritie.* 1.15 Optatus disputing whether the baptized are to be rebap∣tized, is worthie to be heard; Quarendi sunt (saith he) aliqui huius controuersiae indices; si Christiani de viraque parte dari non possunt. quia stuaijs veritas impeditur, de foris quarendus est index: si l'aga••••••,

non potest nosse Christiana secreta, si Iudans, inimiens est Christiani bap∣tismatis, ergo in terris haec de re nullum poterit reperiri iudicium, de coe∣lo quaerendus, sed vt quid pu••samus ad coelum cum habemus hîc in E∣uangelio testamentum? inquam, quia hoc loco recte possunt terrena coe∣lestibus comparari. Some iudges for this controuersie are to be fought for: if Christians, they cannot be had on both sides, be∣cause by part-taking the truth is hindred: we must seek abroad for a iudge; if he be a Pagan, he knoweth not Christian secrets; if a Iewe, he is an enemie to Christian baptisme: in earth there can be found no iudgement: a iudge from heauen must be required. But why doe we knocke at heauen, when we haue in the Gospel a te∣stament? because in this place, earthly things may be fitly cōpared to heauenly things. I maruell, M. Doctor, that your vanting vpon all the Fathers, light not vpon this Father, who is, as you call them, a plaine Calvinist. But I returne your argument:

• They which haue no certaine triall of the truth, are not the Church:
• But the Papist haue no certaine triall of the truth. Ergo.

The assumption is manifest, because they relie vpon Popes that may erre. Marellinus sacrificed to idols, Liberius was an Arrian. And more then this, some Iudas might creepe into the office, as your Rhemists confesse. Some Popes they will not appeale to Councells, as it it manifest by the Councell of Basil. And M. Do∣ctor, in a word, what certaintie haue you, or can you haue, if there happen to be a schisme amongst the Popes? The 22. schisme con∣tinued 40. yeares, as it is recorded in Fascic. Temp. and vntill Mar∣tin the 5. it was not manifest who was Pope. You blaspheme the Scriptures; Turrian calleth them a Delphian sword made for want. The Censure of Colen saith, that it is veluti nasus caereus, a nose of waxe. O Antichristian Prelates, the Lord rebuke you for these your blasphemies against his holy Bible! What triall of truth you haue, I hope I haue made plaine to your owne conscience, M. Doctor. In the ende of this chapter you call vs boat-swanes, ad∣mitting no iudge, and say we haue no meanes to rest vntill we end in Atheisme. That this name of boat-swanes may returne vpon your head, I pray you consider how M. Harding pleadeth for your Pope to be head of the church, because the Prophet Hose prophesieth that the children of Israel and Iudah shall haue one head. Out vpon you, Antichristian heretikes, that euer you should

thus abuse the holy Bible touching Atheisme, whēce did Machia∣uell spring? Caius constantly auoucheth Italie to be the very foū∣taine of Atheists. I conclude this reason with the saying of Picus Mirandula, Magna profecto insania est Euangelio non credere, cuius veritatem sanguis martyrum clamat, Apostolicae resonant voces, prodi∣gia probant, ratio confirmat, mundus testatur, elemēta loquūtur, Daemo∣nes confitentur: sed longe maior insania, si de Euangelij veritate non du∣bitas, viuere tamen, quasi de eius falsitate non dubitares. It is exceeding madnesse not to credit the Gospel, the truth whereof the blood of Martyrs doth crie, the Apostolicall words doe sound, miracles do prooue, reason doth confirme, the world doeth witnesse, the ele∣ments doe vtter, the deuils confesse: but it is farre greater folly if thou doubtest not of the trueth of the Gospell, so to liue as if thou madest no question but it were false.

Notes

• * 1.1

  1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4.
• * 1.2

  cap. 2. de vnitat.
• * 1.3

  de vnit. cap. 5.
• * 1.4

  Lib. 32. cap 21. cont. Faust. Man.
• * 1.5

  Gonarus con. Cost. Iustin Martyr saith, that Christs words haue in th•••• feare to perswade. in di∣alogo cum Try.
• * 1.6

  Lib. 1. cap. 2. de v••••. D••i.
• * 1.7

  Io••. 4.
• * 1.8

  Disp. super G••••. con.
• * 1.9

  Con. lib. 5 c. 1••.
• * 1.10

  Lib. 2. de Christ. cap. 22.
• * 1.11

  Lib. 2 con. gaud. cap. 23.
• * 1.12

  ••ead M. Iames.
• * 1.13

  Lib. 2. denupt. cap. ••••.
• * 1.14

  〈◊〉〈◊〉 Civit. l. 11. c. 3.
• * 1.15

  Lib. 5.