The second replie of Thomas Cartwright: agaynst Maister Doctor Whitgiftes second answer, touching the Churche discipline

Diuision 2. pag. 79.

VNto that wherin he was towched / for his vnskilfulnes in diuiding / in that bothe matters off gouernement / and matters of faithe (which he deuideth / and by diuiding oppose∣the) meete so frendlie together in the gouernement of the Po∣pe: he answerthe not. And yet hauing nothing to answer / he findeth him selfe the talke / of a whole sheete of paper. For first off all / how ridiculous ys it that he saithe / he did not put a case but an example? Then / whether perteines it / that he settethe dou∣ne / what the Papistes saye off the pope, what the pope doothe himselffe? That also whiche he affirmethe in so good earnest / that no go∣uernement owght to be receiued / direcly againste the worde off God: that he repeatethe / and repeateth againe / his nega∣tiue argument of the popes supremacie: are they not all strey spreaches / fraied owt of ther wittes / carying not the weight of a fether / to the profe off any thinge in controuersie: hauing no knot / either with the cause / or one of them with another?

Likewise the distinctions off Ceremonies / and gouerne∣ment / off substantiall and accidentall / of externall and spiritu∣all / are altogether vnprofitable / brought to auoide his appa∣rant ignorance in diuiding. Likewise his dalying in his que∣stions what gouernement I meane (which is apparant in the di∣scours off all our bookes off boothe sydes) also his groping at none dayes / by questions what it mente by matters necessarie to saluation, which is expressed off me in the very nexte diusiō / and againe in the thirde chap. 2 diuision. Afterwarde / when he setteth him selffe to proue / that there is no one finde off gouer¦nement certaine and vnuariable in the churche: let yt be obser¦ued / how loosely ād childishelie he doothe yt. For beside the fir¦ste reason / which is a begging of that whiche is in questiō and the later reason / drawne of the authoritie of maister Gwalier wherof he can haue no aduantage / vnles (with master Gwal¦ter) he will affirme that excommunication is not necessary / nor yet conuenient vnder a Christien magistrate: all the reste of his authorities / drawne owte of M. Caluine / the heluetian confession / Bullinger / are quite beside the cause. For they are to proue / that there may be a churche withowte excommuni∣cation. As thowghe the question were / what thinges the chur¦che (of those whiche be prescribed by the worde off God) may wante / ād yet be the churche of god: and not / what thinges yt owght to haue by the prescripte of the worde off God. Or as thowghe the question were / how sicke the churche might be / and yet liue: how meimed / and yet not slaine: and not what are the meanes / which the lorde hathe appointed / for a whole and wholesome constitution off the bodie of the churche. And iff excommunication or the one forme off gouernement were not necessarie for the churche / because the churche which wan∣teth them / maie be the churche: by the same reason a man ma∣ie saye / that the holie sacrament of the supper of the lord / is not necessarie for the churche: seing that in that companie / where the worde of god is onelie preached and receiued / there is the churche off god. And hereof also the practise is to be sene in some places / where the magistrate (according to the chur∣ches

/ the preaching off the word off god) for certeine occasi∣sions / will not accorde / the ministring off the supper. Last off all / M. Beza shewing the true markes of the churche / addeth to the two former / the discipline framed accordinge to the word / con. 5. 7. so that whatsoeuer necessitie commeth vnto the worde and Sacraments in that they are notes / the same commeth also to the discipline by M. Bezaes Iudgement. Where he quarrelleth with me / as thowghe I had concluded off particulars onelie: beside that he owght to know / that man maie conclude a particular / either affirmatiuely or negatiue∣ly in any figure / not onelie off particulars but off singulars: he must vnderstand / that a particular instance ouerthroweth him / which opposeth matter of ceremonies / and gouernemēt / vnto matters off faithe / and saluation / generally and with∣owt exception. His accusation against me (for callinge the ho¦lie Sacramentes ceremonies) considering that kind off spe∣ache / is receiued amongest the diuines / and I had no further occasion to speake off them / then to shew they were ceremo∣nies: is vtterlie vnworthie any answere.

To the third Diuision pag. 81. The Answerer broileth thinges togither off the infinite mercie off god / and of repen∣tance in a moment / of his vnsearchable iudgementes / hauing neither heade nor fote in his talke. And althowghe he would seme to saie somewhat against me: yet in deede he confirmeth that which I haue set downe. For when he saithe / that the do∣ctrine of free will being damnable of it selffe / dothe not preiu∣dice the mercie off God. iff he meane that the merrie off God embraceth him that being infected with that error / dothe by no especiall repentaunce call it backe (as that which is vnkno∣wen vnto him:) then he fullie agreethe with me. Iff he meane that vppon speciall repentance / and chaunge off minde in that pointe / he obteine mercie: he speaketh truelie / but to no purpose off that matter whiche we haue in hande.

Therfore to bringe some light vnto those thinges / wh∣ich the A. withe his disorder / darkeneth: it is to be vnderstan∣ded / that first off all euerie transgression off the law / be it ne∣uer

so litle off it selffe and in the owne nature / is dānable. Se∣condlie it is to be obserued / that no synne vnto those whiche are throwghe faithe grafted into the bodie of Christ / can brin¦ge damnation: as also withowt faithe (I speake off those wh∣iche haue vnderstanding) there is none which bringeth not certaine deathe / the mercie off god (althoughe neuer so infini∣te) being shut vp against all vnbeleuers. Which I therfore add / because the D. speaketh so confusedlie off the infinitenes off Gods mercie. In the third place / it must be seene / what fa∣ultes vtterlie destroye the faith which is in Christ. For it is cleere / that those that doo not pull vp the rootes / and rase the foundations of faithe: can by no meanes shut the kingdome of heauen / against those which are infected with them: althowg he they do neuer come to the knowledge off them. Wherin I thinke that no man off any Iudgement / will denie that errors not in the hearers onelie / but also in the teachers / maye be su∣che as do not destroye the foundation. And this thing maie be easelie shewed / by diuerse places off scripture / where this di∣stinction off errors (which destroie the foundations / and w∣hich do not: which hold the heade / and which do not: which a∣re deadly / and which are not:) may be easely gathered.

It remaineth onelie to see / whether the erorr off fre will be amongest them whiche do not rase the foundations (as I haue alledged) or no. And when as one which mainteineth fre will / maie holde the fre remission off sinnes in the grace off god / and likewise holde / that that grace is shewed vnto him for Christes sake (these being the growndes off our saluation) it must needes folowe / that fre will dothe not rase the foun∣dations. For there is no necessitie / that he who saithe that the spirite off God / by the new birthe hathe giuen him power to die to synne / and to liue vnto righteousnes: should also af∣firme / that it is giuen him off merite. In the opinion that S. Peter had of his owne strenght and habilitie to die for Christ / entangled (as it may seeme) with ignorance off this pointe off Religion / touching the bondage off mans will: he ceased not therfore / to haue a true and iustifyinge faith in the sonne off God / wherunto our sauiour Christ himselfe had giuen testi∣monie.

And if their were not sufficient holde in this example off Peter / against the A: yet in the greke doctors / and some al∣so off the latin / (as in Ierome especially / which did not by one acte or two as Peter / but by argumentes and open sayinges / declare there liking of fre will) this is manifest. for dare the. A. saie / of all thē that they beleued not the fre remission off syn̄es For Iesus Christes sake / or helde not the foundation of religi∣on / all that time that they taught in the churche of god / ād hel¦de that opinion? And if he graunt that they had faithe: then I conclude that euen then / when they helde fre will / they helde the foundations. which is not so in the example off beleuin∣ge / that the masse is a sacrifice for the quicke and the deade / whiche he vnskilfullie comparethe withe this error off free will: consideringe that that ouer throweth / and turnethe vpp∣side downe the materiall cause off our saluation / which is the sacrifice off the sonne off god / that he once for euer in his ow∣ne person / offred for the sinnes off the worlde. And therfore that error can not be / in any in whom there is faithe.

I brought three reasons off comparison / to proue that the worde off god is a rule to square out / whatsoeuer thinge is to be doone in the orderinge off the church: and the A. in cal¦linge them bare wordes / hathe made a quicke dispatche off them / sauinge that his marginall note / dothe kepe the wonte off vntrue surmisinge. which vpon that I compare the gouer∣nement / with chaines and bracelets / saithe: that I account yt more pretiouse / then the doctrine. As iff the apparell which clothethe the nakednes / were not alwayes more necessarie / ād sometime also more preciouse / then those iewels. And if I had not this defence: yet if I had fallen vppon an aduersary which had not bene disposed to trifle / the lawe off comparisons / (w∣hich exacteth not likelihood in all thinges / but onely in that w∣here in the cōparisō is made) would haue cleared this margēt.

To the Diuision 4. pag. 84. The Admonition saide / that nothinge ought to be established in the church, vvhich is not commaunded by the vvorde off God: the A offended he∣with / condemned this sayinge: the replie shewethe / how the saying of the A. is maintenable / namely for that thoughe there

be not expresse wordes for euery thinge / which may be establi¦shed: yet there are generall commaundementes / whereby all thinges which can fall into any Ecclesiasticall consultation / are to be directed. The A. (to mainteine his sodeine / and vnad∣uised condemnation) saithe: that in those thinges which are varied by time / and other circumstances / and whereoff there is no precise determination in the worde off god: yt is enoug∣he that they be not against the worde of God. So that this is the difference betwene the Adm. and him: they will haue tho∣se thinges not onely not to be against the worde / but to be gro¦unded vpon the worde: and he saiethe / it is enough they be not against the worde. Wherin iff there were no diuersitie / the Ans. is in fault: which in his greedines off findinge fault / con∣demneth that in the Adm. which he is constreined to allowe off. But in deed they are not all one. For albeit it can not be / but that which is not agreable vnto the worde off God / is against the worde off God: and off the otherside / that which is not against the worde off God / is agreable vnto yt: yet he that so saithe / that certaine thīges must be doone not a∣gaīst the worde / that he wil not also accorde / that they should be doone accordinge to the worde: gyuethe thereby to vnder∣stand / that there is some star or light off reason / or learninge or other helpe / whereby some act may be well doone / and ac∣ceptably vnto God / in which the worde off God was shut out / and not called to counsaile: as that which either coulde not / or neede not / giue any direction in that behalfe. Nowe in this later boocke / and in this diuision he saithe: that nothinge ought to be doone in the churche, but accordinge to the true meaninge off the worde. And afterwarde saithe / that he agreethe vnto this sentence off mine: that in makinge orders, and ceremonies off the churche, it is not lavvfull to doo vvhat men liste: but they are bovvnde to follovve the generall rules off the scripture / that are giuen to be a squire / whereby those are to be squared out. And thus in the end the A. is constreined / to yelde him sel¦fe to that / which he hathe before founde fault with. for if no∣thinge

may be doone in makinge orders off the churche / but accordinge to the generall rules off the scripture / and those ge¦nerall rules be commaundementes: it folowethe / that nothin∣ge may be doone in makinges orders for the church / but ac∣cordinge to the commaundement off God. Which is that w∣hich the Adm. did set downe.

And wheras he woulde make the reader belieue / that we haue giuen backe / in that we confesse certeine orders may be established in the churche / which are not expressed in the worde off God: I haue shewed / howe the Adm. is very vn∣truely charged with that sentence: there beinge neither the same / nor the valew off those wordes to be founde in it. This therefore beinge agreed on off bothe sides: we might haue here shut vp these controuersies / sauinge that the A. holdinge this doctrine in wordes / dothe notwithstandinge in deede continue the siedge against it: in that all those places / which I haue alledged for proof off it / he doothe by shamefull and open corruptions / essaye to ouerthowe.

And to the first place / whiche is that the wisdome of god in his worde / doothe teache men euery good way / and there∣fore the way which ought to be taken in the establishement of orders / and ceremonies in the churche: he asketh me in gre∣at scorne / what that maketh to the purpose? in deede to proue that which he vntruly / and contrarie to my playne wordes / in his answer to al my argumētes surmiseth to be my pourpose (that is / that no lawe ought to be made in the churche / which is not expressed in the worde) I say to proue this / I graunt it is not sufficient: but to proue that all thinges owght to be doone in the church / not onely not against the com̄aundement / but also accordinge to the commaundement of God (which was that which I propounded / and he denied) it is more sufficient / then he is hable to answer. His answer also / which supposeth this sentence directed vnto princes and magistrates (onely belike in that he saithe my sonne) is vttered withowte all iudgemēt: consideringe that Salomon / by that title speaketh vnto all the children off god / of what callinge soeuer they be / as it is mani∣fest by the writer to the Hebrues.

To the next argument / grounded vppon the authoritie off Saint Paul / (which is / nothinge can be doone to the glo∣rie off God / withowt ebedience: all thinges doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God / are withowt obe∣dience: therefore nothinge doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God / can be doone to the Glory off God) to this argument / which he calleth vndigested: he answe∣reth by repetition off my wordes / and that Saint Paul•• meaninge is / that nothinge be doone against the worde. Which how absurde an answer it is / when bothe that is the question / and I haue expressly vrged the Testimo∣nye off the worde off God to be required / let all men Iudge.

The next argument / which he saithe is euill framed / is apparant. Wheresoeuer faithe is wantinge / there is syn∣ne: in euery action not commaunded / faithe is wantinge: therfore in euery action not commaunded / there is sinne. To this be answereth: that the wordes off Saint Paul (not to be off faithe) signifie that we ought to doo nothinge / against our conscience. Which both is very absurde / and ouerthro∣weth the sense off the Apostle. For hauinge shewed / that he which doothe any thing doubtingly / is condemned: he as∣signeth immediately / this to be the reason / because he dooth it not off faithe. So that the Apostle calleth that doone not off faithe / which is doone doubtingly: But he is sayde to doo agaynst conscience / which hauinge his knowledge / and persuasion setled / goeth aga∣ynst yt.

And where he saithe / that the wordes going before (which are Blessed is he that condemneth not hym selffe, in the thing vvhich he allovvethe) do proue that sense off his: it is spoken withowt all consideration off the place For how com∣meth yt to passe / that he rather referrethe these wordes off Saint Paule not to be off faithe, to this sentence / which is

farther remoued: then to that off doing with dowbte / which goeth immediately before / yea wherwith it is coupled in the same verse / withe a coniunction causall? And althowghe the reason sometime be referred / vnto that which goethe farther off: yet that is bothe rarely / and then / when by no meanes yt can agree withe that / wich goeth immediatelie before. Which can not be here / considering especially / that it could not be vn∣knowen / but that he which dothe against his conscience / sin∣neth / wherby the Apostle should neede make any proufe of it. but off him which doothe a thing staggering and waueringe / ther might be some dowbte / whether he synned. and therfore the Apostle hauinge said / that he is condemned in so doinge: addethe this reason / for that he dothe it not of faithe, which beinge sinne / is therfore damnable.

Where he saithe / that if a man should do nothinge wheroff he hathe not assurance by the word off God, that he dothe well: that ther∣by should be ouerthrowne Christian libertie in indifferent thinges: the faulte is / in his want off vnderstanding. For euen those thin∣ges that are indifferent / and maye be donne / haue their fredo∣me grounded off the word off God: so that onlesse the word off the lord / either in generall or especiall wordes / had deter∣mined off the free vse off them: there could haue bene no law∣full vse off them at all. And when he seethe / that S. Paule spe∣aketh here off ciuill / priuate / and indifferent actions / as off ea∣ting this or that kind of meate (then the which their can be no∣thing more indifferent:) he might easely haue seene / that the sentence off the Apostle / reacheth euen to his case / off taking vpp a straw. For iff this rule be off indifferent thinges / and not off all: I would gladlie know off him / what indifferent thinges it is giuen off / and off what not. And the same also I require off him in the other generall rule / off doing all thinges to the glorie off god. For iff that reache vnto all indifferent th∣inges it must needes comprise also this action of his. Which iff it doo / then as no man can glorifie God / but by obedience / and here is no obedience / but where there is a worde: it must followe / that their is a worde.

And semethe it so strange a thinge vnto him / that a man should not take vp a straw / but for some pourpose / and for some good pourpose? or will he not giue the lord leaue / to re∣quire off a Christian man / endewed with the spirite off God / as muche / as the heathen require off one / which is onelie en∣dued with reason / that he should do nothing / wheroff he ha∣the not some ende / and that in all his doinges whether publi∣cke / or priuate / at home / or abroade / whether withe him selfe / or with an other / he owght to haue regard / whether that w∣hich he dooth / be donne in dutye or no? And iff the taking vp off a straw / be donne to good ende / either off helping him sel∣fe / or others / regarde of profite / or pleasure / or what els: it ha∣the testimonie off the word off God. And if it haue not an en∣de / and a Good ende: will not the A. giue the lord leaue to cō∣demne that in his infinite wisdome / which men by the light off a litle wisdome / do accompte folishe? or will he be so iniu∣rious to the iustice off god / that he maie not iudge that to be synne / whiche they saye is donne against dutie? What also? that some euen off those heathen men / haue tawght / that no∣thing owght to be donne / wheroff thow dowbtest whether it be right or wronge. Whereby it appeareth / that euen those which had no knowledge of the word off God: did see mutche of the equitie of this / which the Apostle requireth of a Christiā man: and that the cheifest difference is / that where they sent men for the difference off good and euill / to the light off rea∣son / in suche thinges: the Apostle sendeth them / to the scoole of Christe in his worde / which onely is hable thoroughe faith / to giue them assurance / and resolution in their doinges.

And althoughe to mainteine his former vnaduisednes he had rather saie / that men should doo nothinge but which they be∣leue not to displease god, then with the godly learned to say / that they ought to doo nothinge / which they are not assuredly per∣swaded of / that it pleaseth God: yet euen this / which he sayeth off beleuinge that it doth not displease God, I would knowe off him / Where he can fetche the grounde off / but in the worde off God. For iff he doo beleue / that it doeth not displease God / and

beleife be not but in respect of the worde off god: it must fol∣lowe / that he hathe some word off God / which tellethe him / that that dothe not displease the Lorde.

And where he accusethe this doctrine / of bringing-men to dispere: he dothe it wronge. For when doubtinge is the wa∣ye to dispere / againste whiche this doctrine offrethe the rēme∣die it muste needes be / that it bringeth comforte / and ioye / to the conscience off man.

The reason which I assigned / why it is necessarie to ha∣ue the worde off God / goo before vs in all our actions (nam∣ely for that wee can not otherwise be assured / that they please God): he dothe not once touche. His secōde significatiō of th∣ese wordes / not to be of faithe, that is not to be an article of faithe: if it had any grace in it / yet it is merely idle in this place / and helpe the no more / to the vnderstanding of the place of Saint Paul nowe in hande / then smoke dothe the eyes. And where in the ende he saieth / that thes places doo proue as muche for all cyuill actions / as for ecclesiasticall: and that I can no more proue by thes / that a certaine forme off discipline is appoin∣cted in the Scripture / then that euerie ciuill action is precise∣ly commaunded to be doone without any change: I graunt it: neither did I alleadge them therefore / but was driuen into this disputacion / onely by occasion before alleadged in the be∣ginninge off this diuision / and manifestly expressed in the next.

Notes

• 6. Rom.
• 8. Rom.
• 1. Cor. 3. 12. Col. 3. 19. 2, Pet. 2. 1.
• Math. 26. ••3. 35.
• 2. Proue.
• 12. 5.
• 1. Cor 10. 1. Tim. 4.
• 14. Rom.
• Cie. 1. off.
• Caluin v∣pō the c∣pistle, and Insti. l. 3. ca. 15. s. 5.