The second replie of Thomas Cartwright: agaynst Maister Doctor Whitgiftes second answer, touching the Churche discipline

To the 16. sect. pa. 14.

WHether yow haue either scripture or godlie learned au∣thor for your warrant in your assertions / partely hath be¦ne alreadie shewed / and more shall appeare. But yow must learne that the part of a faithfull teacher in the church of god / is neither to propound any thing to the church / neither to re∣iecte that which is propounded by other / off credit off any go∣dlie / learned / zelous man. And althowghe this be to much / yet that which he writethe in the 200. pag. is to farr owt of al squa¦re. Wher he affirmeth that the argument off authoritie / whe∣ther owt off the Scriptures / or owt off the interpretors off the Scripturrs / is the best reason that can be browght in di∣uinitie. To bothe I will answere here in the beginninge that the reader may haue wherewithe he maye beware / and know

how to estenie bothe his and our proufes. And first of all seing the Apostle teacheth Timothie / that the Scripture inspired by the holie goste / is the onelie rule for the minister (which he cal¦leth the man off god) either to establishe or ouerthrowe what soeuer maye fall in question in the churche: And S. Peter saith that who soeuer speaketh in the churche must speake as the wordes of god: And seing all the godlie zelous learned men in the world are not able to authorise or displace any doctrine in the churche withowt the word of god: I leaue it to be conside∣red how daūgerouslye he mainteineth his answere to be good for that it hathe ground either of the word of god / or the iud∣gement of some godlie iearned man / and let it be waied whe∣ther this be to set vp an other Doctor in the church then Mo∣ses or our sauiour Christ.

Touchinge that the authoritie off the Scripture in diui∣ne matters owght to preuaile / I willinglie graunte: but that the argument off the authoritie of men whiche haue interpre∣ted the Scriptures / is the beste reason in controuersies off diuinitie / but off the Papistes (whose strongest towers are in the testimonies off the Doctors) was neuer hard off. And th∣owghe there be nothing more Papistical then this assertion: yet the doctor holding the name and profession of the gospell / maye to the vtter subuersion off it / cause this to be printed and flie abroade. And that the authoritie off learned men should be the best proufe in diuine matters / hathe more absurdities in yt / then yt hathe wordes. For first their authoritie is here set in the same ranke withe the authoritie off the Scripture / in that / as the authoritie off the Scripturr / so it also / is set in the superlatiue degree off the best proufe Then their authori∣tie being preferred vnto all reasons / is preferred vnto the reasons drawen owt off the Scripture: which in euerie diui∣nitie cause almoste / besides the authoritie are diuerse: drawen off the causes and off the effectes / &c. Thirdlie yt ys absurd / to perferr the authoritie of any man (which ys onelie his bare affirmation) vnto his one reason and discours. And seing the ende off proufes in controuersies off diuinitye / is that faythe

maye be engendred in mindes / whiche onelye can be groun∣ded on the worde off God: what a miserable / yea what •• cursed faith shall that be / that is hanged off the authorit•••• off men: which be they neuer so learned / yet are they (becau∣se they be men) Lyers / suche as deceyue / and be decey∣ued.

And wheras he saithe that an Argument off autho∣ritie hathe an other weight in our profession / then yt ha∣the in humane sciences: I confesse it hathe so / iff the au∣thoritie off the Scripture bee consydered: But as for the au∣thoritie off men / for the which cause he alledgeth this / y•• is farr otherwise. For yff the authoritie off man in humane sciences / and in mens matters / be off small force: off how how muche lesse force owght yt to be in Godes matters? yt is clene contrarie therfore to that the D. sayth. For al∣thoughe that Kinde off argument off the authoritie off men / is Good neither in humane / nor diuine science: yet it hath so∣me smale force in humane sciences: for as muche as natural∣lie / and in that he is a man / he maye come to some rypenes off Iudgement in those sciences. Which in diuine maters ha∣the no force at all / as off him which naturally and as he is a man / can no more Iudge off them / then a blind man off colours. Yea so farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie spoken withowt reason and testimonie off Scripture: that it carieth also a suspition off vntrewth / whatsoeuer proceded from him / which the Apostle did well note when to signifie a thing corruptlie spoken / and against the truthe / he saith: that it is spoken according vnto man: he saith not as a wi∣cked or lying man / but symplie as a man. And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye: yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is most advāced / there remaineth bothe ignorance / and disordered affections (wheroff either / turneth him from speaking off the truth) no mans authori∣tie withe the church especiallie / and those that are called and perswaded off the authoritie off the word off God / can bring any assurance vnto the conscience. So that iff all that the D.

affirmeth were trew (as it is vntrue): and iff all those autho∣rities which are alledged were faithfullie / and according to the meaninge off the writers cited (as they are almost all wri∣then / and falsified) yet being for the most part / vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men / they can giue no reste to any Christian conscience which shall leane vppon them.

And iff he saye / that those men haue not spoken witho∣wt reason and warrant off the word of god: then besides that he is greatly to blame / that bringeth not the reasons which moued them to thinke so / and wherupon as vppon certen pil∣lers that sentence might stand: it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force: as that which hathe no credit off it selffe / but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other. And then the D. should haue con∣sidered / that for so muche as the reason off authoritie standeth for the cause and sake off an other / that is to saye for the ar∣gument off causes and other places: it must needes be worse then the arguments wherupon it hangeth. for that for whose cause another thinge is / is better thē the thing which depen∣deth vpon it. And therby further followeth that forsomuch as reason withowt authoritie is good / and authoritie with∣owt reason nothing worthe: that those argumentes whiche are grounded vpon reasons / are better then those which are grounded vppon authoritie. And wheras peraduenture he will seke some colour of defence off his absurd speache / in the wordes which he addeth (of suche learned men as do rightly interprete the scripture:) that addition as it taketh not awa∣ye from the absurditie: so it addeth to the folie and impropre∣tie of speche. For besides that he taketh that for graunted / w∣hich is the question / that is to saye whether it be rightlie inter¦preted or noo: he should haue vnderstanded that the rightnes of the interpretation / depēdeth not vpon the authoritie of the man / or in that suche a godlie or learned man did so interpre∣te it: but in that the place is expounded agreablie vnto the sui¦te of the texte.

And that the D. which vnder the name off auncient au∣thoritie would oppresse the truthe / may vnderstand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie / he is not so good a scholer o•• disciple off his pretended masters: of diuerse sentences off the fathers them selues (wherby some haue likened them vnto brute beastes withowt reason / which suffer themselues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others: some haue pre¦ferred the iudgement of one simple rude mā alledging reason / vnto companies off learned men) I will content my selffe at this time with two or thre sentences. Ireneus saith / Vvhat∣soeuer is to be shevved in the scripture: can not be shevved but of the scriptures thē selues. 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith: No man be he neuer so holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after the Apostles. Augustin saith: that he vvill beleue none hovv godly and lerned so euer he be vnles he confirme his senten¦ce by the scriptures or by some reason not cōtrary to them. And in an other place / heare this the Lord saith, heare not this Donatus saithe, Rogatus saithe, Vicentius saith, Hi∣larius, saith, Ambrose saith, Augustin saithe, but harken to this the Lord saithe.

And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian / affirmeth: that neither he ovvght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece, nor the other the councell of Arimin, therby to btin∣ge preiudice eche to other: neither ovvght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one, nor him selffe by the authoritie of the other: but by the scriptures vvhiche are vvitnesses proper to neither, but common ro bothe, matter vvith matter, cause vvith cause, reason vvith reason ovvght to be debated. And in another place against Petiliane the donatian hereticke he saith: Let not these vvordes be he∣atd betvvene vs, I Saye: yovv Saye: let vs heare this, Thus sai∣the the lord, and by and by speaking off the scriptures he sai∣the there let vs seeke the churche, there let vs trie the cause

Here yt is manifest that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe / which the answerer not∣withstanding maketh so great accounts off: likewise that rea∣son whiche is not directly against the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth. and if Augustin thowght that in a matter off controuersie the authoritie off so manye godlie and learned fathers as were assembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightlie / owght not to be al∣ledged not onelie to condemne and conuince / but not so mu∣che as to preiudice an heresie long agoo condemned: iff he w∣ould haue the trewth tried by the scripture onely: let all men iudge how euill a folower off Augustin the D. is / which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth so great weight / that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the best proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduersaries cause. And iff at any time it happened vnto him (as it did against the Donatistes▪ and others) to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him: yet that was not done before be had la∣yed a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures / and that also being prouoked by the aduersaries off the treuth / who ba¦re themselues highe off some Councell / or off some man off name that had fauoured their parte. And therfore iff the A. would salue this with the example off Augustin in other pla∣ces: yet for that he neuer in any cause laieth any foundation / ei¦ther of any scripture or colour of scripture: ād being prouoked flieth still from it / as from the rocke and sandes o his cause: it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vn¦trulie on his side: yet the vse off it in this sorte / were bothe by the rule off the word off god / and example off the auncient fathers altogither vnlawfull. And so the estimation which y∣ow haue off the learned maie easelie appeare vnto all men / to be as they make for yow / or against yow: so that when they make for yow they are as sharpe of sight as Egles: afterward when they are against yow they see no more then Iayes.

Yow giue me adresse vnto the wisest / godliest / and best

learned emongest the Ecclesiasticall order / to know off them whether they thinke whith yow: but your addresse is verie vn∣certeine: for those are not alwaies peraduēture best learned to me that are to yow / and iff yow meane those whiche at there ease do not vnwillinglie beholde yow in this wrastle for the crowne of ease and honor (whereoff they may be peraduen∣ture some) I maie yet haue Good cause to doubte / whether they be off that iudgement with yow / or at least whether they would oppugne this cause as yow doo. for albeit they be con∣tent to take some frute off your labor: yet it followeth not al∣waies that they would doo the like them selues. Yow know that there are some whiche will receiue that which is taken by others / that would not venture them selues to take yt: and Ie¦rome writeth some where: that faultes euen confessed plea∣se oftentimes.

Notes

• 2. Tim. 3.
• 1 Epist. 4.
• Rom. 3.
• vpon the 86. Psal. Epist. 18.
• Epist. 48.
• Against Maxim. •• the Arri∣an. 3. 14. chap.
• De vnita¦te eccle∣siae cap. 3.
• Contr Iu¦lian Pela¦giann̄ lib. prim. lib. de na¦tur. & grat.
• Ier. 3. To praefat in Iob.