The second replie of Thomas Cartwright: agaynst Maister Doctor Whitgiftes second answer, touching the Churche discipline

To the 13. sect. pag. 9.

GEinge the church off Christ gathered amonge the Iewes / and S. Peter him selffe were ignorant off one of the gre∣atest misteries off Christianitie / concerning the maner off the calling off the Gentillee: yt owght not to seme straunge vnto vs / iff those famous Martirs were ignorant / off some princi∣pall point commaunded by the word off god. And iff it be re∣plyed / that this ignorance falleth not into the holie ordre off the martirs off Christ / and that the lord leueth not those wh∣ich are witnesses vnto death / in ignorance off any such neces∣sarie pointe: Cyprian and Iustin Martyr / (wheroff besides o∣ther smaller errors the one helde / that those which were bap∣tized by the heretikes / were to be baptized againe: the other was a Chiliast / ād said that the faithful / should in the generall resurrection line with Christ here vppon earthe 1000. yeares:) I say these two godlie Martyrs are sufficient profes / that the glorie off martyrdome / dothe not free men from being in dan¦ger off ignorance / off some necessarie doctrine commaunded in the scripture. Origene (if he were as it written off him a Martyr) had so many / and so grosse errors / that he had neede haue verie fauourable interpretation / to make him holde the fundation of Religion: especially iff they be his workes whi∣che goo vnder his name.

And if it be further said / that albeit those martyrs did er∣re in suche weightie matters: yet it is to be supposed that be∣fore their deathes / they chaunged opinion: I saye that that can be by no likelihoode supposed. For then vndowtedlie they would haue called backe their former opinions / and not haue suffred them to the hurt off the church / to haue liued after the∣redeathe.

If this be not sufficient / to shew that godlie Max∣tyrs maye remaine in the ignorāce of some necessarie point of Religion: our owne Ecclesiasticall stories / do furnishe vs with diuerse examples off godlie Martyrs / off all sortes / and all ti∣mes / but especially in the beginning (when the daie off the li∣ght off the Gospell / beganne to peepe owt off that night off popishe darknes wherin we were) who euen in there exami∣nations before theire martirdome / affirme the contrary off that wheroff we are clerely taught in the word of God. I ha∣ue not the booke by me / but I well remembre there mentioned of a notable man / and off the later Martyrs / which affirmeth a verie grosse descent off our sauior Christ into hell: which is an error in one off the articles off our faithe. Another graun∣ting such a Purgatorie after this life as the papistes do ima∣gine / and others also diuerse failing in substantiall pointes of doctrine: wherby whatsoeuer becommeth off this place off Nehemias / yet that is trew which I set downe: that both go∣od men / and learned / and martyrs / may not onely be ignorant / but also holde / the contrarie off some substantiall pointes off Religion. So that iff the example which I vsed / should not serue: yet the doctrine which I set downe is trew and vnsha∣ken / yea (sauing onelye a bare deniall) vntouched.

And because the Answerer holdeth oute the Slidinges of the moste excellent seruantes of god / to hide this vnfaithful dealing withe the church in this resistance against the trew∣th: he must vnderstand that their want in these thinges / is so farre from making his fault lesse / that it shall weighe so much more to his condemnation / by how much the lord hathe off∣red the knowledge off those thinges vnto him which (he dis∣dainefullie reiectinge) would withowt all controuersie haue bene ioyfullie embraced off those blessed Martyrs. And iff he had rather here this sentence off an other then off me: it is that which Cyprian in a certeine Epistle writeth / wher all this is confirmed when he saith: That yff any off our predecessors either by ignorance, or by simplicitie

did not hold that vvhich the Lorde did by his com¦maundement and example teache: that the Lord vvould forgiue that simplicitie: But vnto vs (saith he) vvhich are admonished & instructed, there is no suche pardon lefte.

And althowghe he now whiteth there tombes withe a fewe faierr wordes: yet it is to be feared / that iff they were ali∣ue / and should but a litle touche his bile: all the learning and godlines they had / should not be able to harnesse thē frō tho∣se dartes of his tonge / which others haue felte. And it shall ap¦peare I dowbt not or euer we haue done / whether he beare that reuerence / which he pretendeth / when I shall haue she∣wed / that the principall pointes which are debated betwene vs / and which he is so looth to forgoo / be clere and manifest assertions / partlie off the eldest and moste auncientest profes∣sors off the gospell / and partely off the moste famous / learned martyrs in this our land: I saye whē these thinges shalbe she¦wed it shalbe discouered: whether this price which he seteth of there iudgement / hathe risen of their exellencie in vertew / and learnīg / or rather of that cause which I haue before obserued.

In the allegation off the place of Nehemias / yff I would followe the answeres traine / I need not retracte any thinge. For I could alledge / vppon that that bothe before and after ther is rehearsed the same storie which was spoken off in Es∣ra / the feast off tabernacles is like to be all one / spoken off in Esra / and in Nehemia: howbeit because there are reasons wh∣ich leade me to thinke otherwise: I willinglie confesse that the storie of the celebration of the feast of tabernacles in the third of Esra / maketh against that I said / of not holdinge that fe∣ast so manie yeares. But I denie that the answerer in all this great triumphe / either dothe or can lose my holde off that pla∣ce / wherby I confirmed the continuance off so many yeares in omittinge that / which owght to haue bene done by the com¦maundement of god. For notwithstanding the feast were ce∣lebrated: yet it can not be shewed / that it was kept in suche

sorte as it owght / with boothes made of certèine leaues / and bowghes commaunded in the law. And that the wordes off the booke of Nehemias / which affirme that the childrē of Israel had not done so frō the time / &c: are not referred o¦nely to the ioie which was great in that feast / but vnto the kep¦inge of it with bowghes •••• in times past omited / there is this likelihood: that the storie sheweth / how they had celebrated the first day off the feast withowt any off those bowghes pre¦scribed / and that the second day of the feaste / hearing the law read which cōmaunded those bowghes / they corrected their error werupon im̄ediatelie folowe these wordes of the booke that the childrē of Israel had not done so, frō the ti∣me of Iosuah the son̄e of Nū, wherby appeareth that the¦re was a generall ignorance of the man̄er of solemnizing that feast / euen in Esra the highe priest / whose expertnes and kno∣wledge in the law off god / together with a feruent zeale to seke the lord / is so highlie commēded off the holie ghoste. And iff the Hebrew coniunction Vau, which followeth imme∣diately / be taken in the proper signification: the wordes off the texte will not suffer that worde (So) to be referred to any other thinge / then to the omitting off that cōmaundement of the lord / by the space of so many yeares as I haue assigned. so that vnlesse I will yealde him this place willinglie: he is not able withe any force of reason / to wring it owt of my handes.

The places off the kinges and Cronicles are not like vnto this: for the speaches are plaine ād clere there which is not so in this place / especiallie to that ende / that he would carie them. Where he asketh whether he should saie) That I haue not read the place, or doe not vnderstand yt, or vvil∣linglie and vvittiinglie abuse it or receiued it in some notes from others) let it be free to him for me to saye either of them / or all off them togither. But wher he saith he, will saie none of them / and yet in another place twen∣tie lines after / chargeth me with the most heinous of them all that is with wilfull deprauing off the Scriptures: excepte he

can bring it to some figure of Rhetoricke / which wilbe harde for him to doo: it is to open an vntrewth / ioined as it should seme / withe a great excesse of enuie and displeasure: the streme wheroff was so stronge / that it did as it were by force / carie awaie the trewth off his promise.

Notes

• Act. 10.
• Cyp. lib. 2. Epist. 3.
• 23, Leui.