The second replie of Thomas Cartwright: agaynst Maister Doctor Whitgiftes second answer, touching the Churche discipline

What authoritie the churche hathe in making off orders.

Chapter 1. pag. 77.

THe playster vvherwithe the answerer woulde heale his vnskilfulnes in the expounding off tollerating in the churche. by these wordes placing in the churche, will not cleane. For to let pas the meanig off the admonition (whiche he shoulde ha∣ue shewed iff he mainteine his answer by yt / and not as he doothe (contrary to all lawe of disputation) bid me proue that their meaning was not so as he supposeth) I saie to let that pas: yt appeareth by bis plaine vvordes / that this exposition was not framed in regarde off the meaning off the admoniti∣on / but for that he knew not what difference there was bet∣wene placinge in the churche, and tollerating in the churche. For himselffe cōfesseth that this is the principall grounde of their booke / that those thinges onely shoulde be placed in the chur∣che

/ whiche the lorde himself in his worde com̄aundethe. and ascribing this iudgemēt vnto them he afterwarde expounde∣th / that to be asmuche as if they shoulde haue saide: that nothing shulde be tolerated, &c. yff this be their principall grounde that nothing be placed, &c, (as the A. confessethe:) and placing in the churche is not the same that tollerating in the churche (as he doothe also confesse:) yt must folowe that the princi∣pall grounde off the admonition / was not (as he saithe) that nothing shoulde be tollerated in the churche not commaunded by the worde. And his wordes doo discharge the admonition off any suche assertion. For in that he saithe / that their meaning was (so farr as he coulde gather) that nothing shoulde be placed, &c. yt is manifeste that in saying nowe that they mente that nothinge shoul¦de be tolerated, &c. he chargeth them farther / then he was then hable to gather off their booke.

Afterwarde he chargethe me / withe an vnaduised and a popishe assertion / for that I say: that many thinges are com∣maunded in the scripture vvhich are not expressed in yt. He neded not to haue trauailed far / to haue seene how far I am from poperie in in this pointe: iff he woulde haue but con¦sidered / the wordes which folowe in the same diuision: that god hathe set before vs in his vvorde, a perfect patrone off his churche. But I was at leaste ouerseene in this kind off speache. Alas iff he woulde vnderstande his grammer / and acknowledge that which simple scholers off the gram̄er scho∣ole doo well knowe / that their is difference betweene expres∣sed and conteined, betweene expressed and included, betweene ex¦pressed and implied, betweene expressed and gathered: He woul¦de neuer haue troubled the reader with suche folies. And as for that which I set downe / I did yt vppon Good groundes. For who is there which knoweth not / that thes thinges / that there is one essence and three persons in the godheade / that there is in our Sauiour Christe one parson and two natures: are not expressed / but onely conteined in the worde off God?

And iff proofe must be had off thinges (which is to gre∣ate

shame for one that cariethe the title off a diuine to be ig∣norant off) let the answerer know / that lerned diuines spea∣ke afte this sorte / Their wordes be thes. Off the father, of the * 1.1 Sonne, and holy ghoste, there is one nature one essence and thre persons: In Christ our lorde there be tvvo natures and one person, and many other thinges vvhich the catholike churche doothe receiue, rather layde oute by the interpre∣tation * 1.2 off the Scriptures / then expressed in the vvordes off the Scripture. Here the answerer may lerne / that certaine off the cheiff pillers off our Religion / by the Iudgement off this councell are not expressed in the worde off God / and yet notwithstanding bothe conteined in the worde off God / and commaunded to be beleued.

And where he saithe that he coūntethe that expressed in the scripture when yt is either in manifest wordes conteined, or theroff gathe red by necessary collection: I answer / that I suppose / that there was neuer writer / holie nor prophane / that euer spake so: and that yt byddethe defiance bothe to de vinitie / and humanitie / being forged (as yt is to be feared) contrary to his owne kno∣wledge / onely that he might giue some colour vnto that absur¦dytie / which he woulde so gladlye fasten on me. I saie that it is against his owne knowledge: forasmuche as in his former booke / and euen in the nexte diuision / (which is in the 78 / pa∣ge off this his later booke) he confessethe this difference off being expressed in the worde / and gathered off it / which is the same in effecte which I haue saide. For he saithe that nothing owght to be tollerated in the churche' &c. onles yt be expresly conteined in the worde off god or maye manifestly therof be gathered. Here he plainely opposeth as member off one diuision / expressely contei∣ned, and manifestly gathered: now in this later booke cleane con∣trarily / he maketh gathered to be a part of expressed. And in an other place off his former booke / (as it appeareth in the 24. page off his booke) he saithe: and none off these circumstances are commaunded in the scripture, or by necessarie collection theroff may be gathered. Where he supposeth some thinge necessarie to sal∣uation

/ which is not commaunded / namely which may be ne∣cessarylie gathered of the scripture. And iff those wordes com¦maunded in the scriptures (which are generall) will not con∣teine al that which is necessary (as his diuision teacheth:) how much les will thes wordes / expressed in the scriptures, compas them? and iff commaunded and forbidden be all one with ex∣pressed (as he here affirmeth): then did he absurdely to make gathered off the scriptures / to be an opposite member vnto commaunded. That which I sayed off the argument off autho¦ritie off a man / to be neither good affirmatiuely / nor negatiue∣ly / farther then to induce thereader into somelikinge / or mis∣likinge / and not to haue force to compell: is apparaunt vnto al which haue any sparcke of iudgement. That which is broug•• out off Aristotle / is to no purpose: and it maketh also against the A. Forasmuche as where Aristotle saithe / that credite is to be giuen to him that is cunninge: he speaketh off thinges / which haue a likelihoode / and may be disputed off on bothe sy∣des: and not of thinges / which are to be receiued without gai¦nesaying. And I merueile that the A. will not see / that amon∣gest men / the cunningest in any profession / haue in diuerse th∣inges bene off those which followed them iustly founde fauls with. And if he will bothe sticke to Aristotle / and interpret•• him as he dothe / that a man ought to beleue euerie one, in that as to and profession where in he is conninge: then euerie learned Deuine in his profession / is to be beleued whatsoeuer he saithe. W∣hich beinge absurd / and seinge it hathe bene before shewed / that an argumēt of the authoritie of mā affirmatiuely is not good: let vs holde that for somuche as mā / cānot come (throu¦gh his infirmitie) vnto the perfectiō of any thinge / (which rea¦son being assigned of me / is vntouched of the A.) and forasmu¦che as the giftes off god / are giuen in measure / and not in per∣fection: that an argument off ••he authoritie off man / can not enforcevs / and that it is proper vnto the Aposties / and Pro∣phetes / whom the Lorde had chosen to be his notaries / and whose handes he helds continually / to be without the hazarde off errour.

To the places which I alledged owte off the worde off god / to proue that an argument drawne of the authoritie off the scripture negatiuely / is good: he answereth / that the exam¦ples which I bringe / be of thinges of great importance / and forbidden in other places of the Scripture. I graunt they are so / and that maketh much against hym: for that the Lorde ha∣uinge this aduantage against the Israelites / off charginge them that they had doone contrarie vnto his commaunde∣ment / chose rather to saye after this sorte / that they had doo∣ne that vvhich he had not commaunded, therby to teache his to hange vppon his mowthe. And the answerer owght to haue considered / that the reason is generall whiche the pro∣phetes vse: which otherwise shoulde be no reason at all. And it maye be shewed / that the same manner off argument / ha∣the bene vsed in thinges which are not off the substance off saluacion or damnation / and wheroff there was no commaun¦dement to the contrary. In Iosuah / the children of Israell are charged by the Prophete / that they asked not counsaile off the mouthe off the lorde / when they entred into couenant with * 1.3 the Gabeonites: and yet that couenant was not made contra∣rie vnto anie com̄aundemēt of god. For howsoeuer yt seemeth to some / that vpon the wordes off Moses / they owght to ha∣ue bene put to deathe / being of those nations which dwelte in the inheritaunce off the people off god: yet iff yt be conside∣red what the causes were / why they might not enter in to lea∣gue with them (which was / lest they dwellinge amōgest them shoulde drawe them to a false worship of god:) yt will not be * 1.4 harde to vnderstande / but that withe condition off yelding themselues / bothe to the subiection of the Iewes / and to their institution in the Religion of god (as thes did) they might be receiued.

There was in deede difference betweene these nations / which dwelled in the lande off the inheritaunce off the child∣ren of Israel / and which dwelt rounde abowte them. For w∣here the Iewes might make league with the nations rounde abowte them / withowt anie their submission vnto Religion:

they coulde not doo so with the Cananites / &c. And where in other nations after peace refused / the children off Israell ha∣uing taken a cytie / owght to kepe a liue women and children in these ether resistinge them / or not submitting themselues vnto the seruice of god / it was not lawful to spare ether wemē or children. But that it was simplie vnlawful for thē / to make league with them vvith any condition / I thinke yt can not be shewed. for thē Iosue ād the princes shoulde haue doone euil / to haue kepte their othe with them / after they had vnderstan∣ded their frawde / cosidering that all othes made againste the com̄aundement of god / are to be brokē. And if it be saide / that Iosue and the princes did euil in keping their othe: the appro∣bation off that facte is apparant in an other place / where the * 1.5 vengeance for the lorde / fell vppon all Israell by famyn / and vpon the housse off Saul particulerly / by executing those off his familie: because the gabeonites / had bene (cōtrary to the te¦nure of the othe made with thē) put to deathe. And vnles this * 1.6 be admitted / we shall be compelled to condemne the spies / which entred into league with Rachab the Harlot: and Salo∣mō / * 1.7 which receiued the Amorytes / that voluntaryly yelded thē selues vnto his obedience / and withall vnto the obedience off the lorde / as it maie appeare in the bookes off Esra / and Ne∣hemias: where their posteritie (which are there called the son∣nes off the seruantes of Salomon) hauing of olde time / grow ne into one bodie off the churche off god withe the children of Israel: ioyne them••elues with thē in the restoring of the tem¦ple. * 1.8 Wheruppon the A. may vnderstande / that the Scripture reasonethe negatiuely againste the Israelites / in a thinge w∣heroff there was no commaundement to the contrarie.

Moreouer we reade / that when Dauid had taken this counsell / to builde a temple vnto the lorde: albeit the lorde had * 1.9 reuealed before in his worde / that there shoulde be suche a standing place / where the arke off the couenante / and the ser∣uice off god shoulde haue a certeine abydinge: and albeit the∣re was no worde off god / which forbad Dauid to builde the temple: yet the lorde (with commendation off his good affe∣ction / and zeale he had to the aduancement off his glorie) con∣cludeth

againste Dauid his resolution to builde the temple with this reason: namelie / that he had giuen no commaunde∣ment off this / who shoulde builde yt.

Where he woulde grounde this answer / vpon the wor∣des off Zuinglius: yt is manifest that Zuinglius reproueth the Anabaptistes / not for reasoning negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture / but that they reasoned negatiuely off an ac∣te / or an example. And there is great difference betwene them that saye / it is no conteined / or it can not be concluded off any place in the scripture: therefore yt is vnlawfull / and betwe∣ene the Anabaptistes / which reason that therefore the bap∣tisme off children is vnlawfull because it is not founde in the Scriptures / that the Apostles did babtize any children. Wheras iff they had reasoned thus / that the baptisme off yon∣ge children was vnlawfull / forasmuche as yt was not com¦maunded in the scriptures: althowghe the grounde off their reason had bene false: yet their conclusion had bene faste and sure. And therfore iff the answerer wolde haue delte trewly / he shoulde not haue fathered this answer of Zuinglius / whi∣che hathe no suche thinge) but off the Papistes whose proper defense this is againste those / whiche manifie the sufficiencie of the worde off God / as that whiche giueth men addresse / vn¦to all thinges whiche are to be doone.

Maister Harding reprochethe the Bishopp off Salus∣bery * 1.10 / with this kinde off reasoning / whiche the answerer ob∣iectethe againste vs so often / vnto whom the Bishopp ans∣wereth. The Atgument Maister Hearding meanethe and not very plainely vttereth is the argumente off authoritie negatiuely: vvhich is taken to be goode, vvhen soeuer prou∣fe is taken off godds vvorde and is vsed not onely by vs, but also by many of the catholike fathers. And there alled∣geth how Saint Paul in the 3. Gal. dispureth negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture / for that the Apostel vppon the wordes off Moses in thy seede and not seades, concludeth that our sauiour Christe was vnderstanded. likewise he shewe the how Origine / reasoneth after the same sorte. And a litle after / sheweth the reason why the argumente off authoritie off

of the scripture negatiuelie / is good / namely / for that the wor¦de off God is perfecte. In another place vnto Maister Har∣ding * 1.11 casting him in the teethe / with the negatiue Argumen∣tes: he alledgeth places owte of Ireneus / Chrisostome / Loo / which reasoned negatiuely of the authoritie of the scripture The places which he alledgeth / be very full / and plaine in ge∣neralitie / withowt any suche restraincte as the A. imagineth / as they are there to be seene.

Wheras he saithe / that the reason that God coulde giue a perfecte patrone off the churche / therfore he hathe so doone / doothe no more folow then in there all presence off the Sacrament: he doothe but trifle withe his reader. For I reason not off the bare power off God / but haue ioyned his will with his po∣wer. For my wordes be / that the Lorde determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme off his churche, is bothe hable to doo yt, and hathe doone yt. Where yt is euidente vnto all men / that I grounde my reason not onely off the ha∣bilitie off the lorde / but vpon his determination: not onely off that which he coulde doo / but off that he hathe doone.

Diuision 2. pag. 79.

VNto that wherin he was towched / for his vnskilfulnes in diuiding / in that bothe matters off gouernement / and matters of faithe (which he deuideth / and by diuiding oppose∣the) meete so frendlie together in the gouernement of the Po∣pe: he answerthe not. And yet hauing nothing to answer / he findeth him selfe the talke / of a whole sheete of paper. For first off all / how ridiculous ys it that he saithe / he did not put a case but an example? Then / whether perteines it / that he settethe dou∣ne / what the Papistes saye off the pope, what the pope doothe himselffe? That also whiche he affirmethe in so good earnest / that no go∣uernement owght to be receiued / direcly againste the worde off God: that he repeatethe / and repeateth againe / his nega∣tiue argument of the popes supremacie: are they not all strey spreaches / fraied owt of ther wittes / carying not the weight of a fether / to the profe off any thinge in controuersie: hauing no knot / either with the cause / or one of them with another?

Likewise the distinctions off Ceremonies / and gouerne∣ment / off substantiall and accidentall / of externall and spiritu∣all / are altogether vnprofitable / brought to auoide his appa∣rant ignorance in diuiding. Likewise his dalying in his que∣stions what gouernement I meane (which is apparant in the di∣scours off all our bookes off boothe sydes) also his groping at none dayes / by questions what it mente by matters necessarie to saluation, which is expressed off me in the very nexte diusiō / and againe in the thirde chap. 2 diuision. Afterwarde / when he setteth him selffe to proue / that there is no one finde off gouer¦nement certaine and vnuariable in the churche: let yt be obser¦ued / how loosely ād childishelie he doothe yt. For beside the fir¦ste reason / which is a begging of that whiche is in questiō and the later reason / drawne of the authoritie of maister Gwalier wherof he can haue no aduantage / vnles (with master Gwal¦ter) he will affirme that excommunication is not necessary / nor yet conuenient vnder a Christien magistrate: all the reste of his authorities / drawne owte of M. Caluine / the heluetian confession / Bullinger / are quite beside the cause. For they are to proue / that there may be a churche withowte excommuni∣cation. As thowghe the question were / what thinges the chur¦che (of those whiche be prescribed by the worde off God) may wante / ād yet be the churche of god: and not / what thinges yt owght to haue by the prescripte of the worde off God. Or as thowghe the question were / how sicke the churche might be / and yet liue: how meimed / and yet not slaine: and not what are the meanes / which the lorde hathe appointed / for a whole and wholesome constitution off the bodie of the churche. And iff excommunication or the one forme off gouernement were not necessarie for the churche / because the churche which wan∣teth them / maie be the churche: by the same reason a man ma∣ie saye / that the holie sacrament of the supper of the lord / is not necessarie for the churche: seing that in that companie / where the worde of god is onelie preached and receiued / there is the churche off god. And hereof also the practise is to be sene in some places / where the magistrate (according to the chur∣ches

/ the preaching off the word off god) for certeine occasi∣sions / will not accorde / the ministring off the supper. Last off all / M. Beza shewing the true markes of the churche / addeth to the two former / the discipline framed accordinge to the word / con. 5. 7. so that whatsoeuer necessitie commeth vnto the worde and Sacraments in that they are notes / the same commeth also to the discipline by M. Bezaes Iudgement. Where he quarrelleth with me / as thowghe I had concluded off particulars onelie: beside that he owght to know / that man maie conclude a particular / either affirmatiuely or negatiue∣ly in any figure / not onelie off particulars but off singulars: he must vnderstand / that a particular instance ouerthroweth him / which opposeth matter of ceremonies / and gouernemēt / vnto matters off faithe / and saluation / generally and with∣owt exception. His accusation against me (for callinge the ho¦lie Sacramentes ceremonies) considering that kind off spe∣ache / is receiued amongest the diuines / and I had no further occasion to speake off them / then to shew they were ceremo∣nies: is vtterlie vnworthie any answere.

To the third Diuision pag. 81. The Answerer broileth thinges togither off the infinite mercie off god / and of repen∣tance in a moment / of his vnsearchable iudgementes / hauing neither heade nor fote in his talke. And althowghe he would seme to saie somewhat against me: yet in deede he confirmeth that which I haue set downe. For when he saithe / that the do∣ctrine of free will being damnable of it selffe / dothe not preiu∣dice the mercie off God. iff he meane that the merrie off God embraceth him that being infected with that error / dothe by no especiall repentaunce call it backe (as that which is vnkno∣wen vnto him:) then he fullie agreethe with me. Iff he meane that vppon speciall repentance / and chaunge off minde in that pointe / he obteine mercie: he speaketh truelie / but to no purpose off that matter whiche we haue in hande.

Therfore to bringe some light vnto those thinges / wh∣ich the A. withe his disorder / darkeneth: it is to be vnderstan∣ded / that first off all euerie transgression off the law / be it ne∣uer * 1.12

so litle off it selffe and in the owne nature / is dānable. Se∣condlie it is to be obserued / that no synne vnto those whiche are throwghe faithe grafted into the bodie of Christ / can brin¦ge * 1.13 damnation: as also withowt faithe (I speake off those wh∣iche haue vnderstanding) there is none which bringeth not certaine deathe / the mercie off god (althoughe neuer so infini∣te) being shut vp against all vnbeleuers. Which I therfore add / because the D. speaketh so confusedlie off the infinitenes off Gods mercie. In the third place / it must be seene / what fa∣ultes vtterlie destroye the faith which is in Christ. For it is cleere / that those that doo not pull vp the rootes / and rase the foundations of faithe: can by no meanes shut the kingdome of heauen / against those which are infected with them: althowg he they do neuer come to the knowledge off them. Wherin I thinke that no man off any Iudgement / will denie that errors not in the hearers onelie / but also in the teachers / maye be su∣che as do not destroye the foundation. And this thing maie be * 1.14 easelie shewed / by diuerse places off scripture / where this di∣stinction off errors (which destroie the foundations / and w∣hich do not: which hold the heade / and which do not: which a∣re deadly / and which are not:) may be easely gathered.

It remaineth onelie to see / whether the erorr off fre will be amongest them whiche do not rase the foundations (as I haue alledged) or no. And when as one which mainteineth fre will / maie holde the fre remission off sinnes in the grace off god / and likewise holde / that that grace is shewed vnto him for Christes sake (these being the growndes off our saluation) it must needes folowe / that fre will dothe not rase the foun∣dations. For there is no necessitie / that he who saithe that the spirite off God / by the new birthe hathe giuen him power to die to synne / and to liue vnto righteousnes: should also af∣firme / that it is giuen him off merite. In the opinion that S. Peter had of his owne strenght and habilitie to die for Christ / * 1.15 entangled (as it may seeme) with ignorance off this pointe off Religion / touching the bondage off mans will: he ceased not therfore / to haue a true and iustifyinge faith in the sonne off God / wherunto our sauiour Christ himselfe had giuen testi∣monie.

And if their were not sufficient holde in this example off Peter / against the A: yet in the greke doctors / and some al∣so off the latin / (as in Ierome especially / which did not by one acte or two as Peter / but by argumentes and open sayinges / declare there liking of fre will) this is manifest. for dare the. A. saie / of all thē that they beleued not the fre remission off syn̄es For Iesus Christes sake / or helde not the foundation of religi∣on / all that time that they taught in the churche of god / ād hel¦de that opinion? And if he graunt that they had faithe: then I conclude that euen then / when they helde fre will / they helde the foundations. which is not so in the example off beleuin∣ge / that the masse is a sacrifice for the quicke and the deade / whiche he vnskilfullie comparethe withe this error off free will: consideringe that that ouer throweth / and turnethe vpp∣side downe the materiall cause off our saluation / which is the sacrifice off the sonne off god / that he once for euer in his ow∣ne person / offred for the sinnes off the worlde. And therfore that error can not be / in any in whom there is faithe.

I brought three reasons off comparison / to proue that the worde off god is a rule to square out / whatsoeuer thinge is to be doone in the orderinge off the church: and the A. in cal¦linge them bare wordes / hathe made a quicke dispatche off them / sauinge that his marginall note / dothe kepe the wonte off vntrue surmisinge. which vpon that I compare the gouer∣nement / with chaines and bracelets / saithe: that I account yt more pretiouse / then the doctrine. As iff the apparell which clothethe the nakednes / were not alwayes more necessarie / ād sometime also more preciouse / then those iewels. And if I had not this defence: yet if I had fallen vppon an aduersary which had not bene disposed to trifle / the lawe off comparisons / (w∣hich exacteth not likelihood in all thinges / but onely in that w∣here in the cōparisō is made) would haue cleared this margēt.

To the Diuision 4. pag. 84. The Admonition saide / that nothinge ought to be established in the church, vvhich is not commaunded by the vvorde off God: the A offended he∣with / condemned this sayinge: the replie shewethe / how the saying of the A. is maintenable / namely for that thoughe there

be not expresse wordes for euery thinge / which may be establi¦shed: yet there are generall commaundementes / whereby all thinges which can fall into any Ecclesiasticall consultation / are to be directed. The A. (to mainteine his sodeine / and vnad∣uised condemnation) saithe: that in those thinges which are varied by time / and other circumstances / and whereoff there is no precise determination in the worde off god: yt is enoug∣he that they be not against the worde of God. So that this is the difference betwene the Adm. and him: they will haue tho∣se thinges not onely not to be against the worde / but to be gro¦unded vpon the worde: and he saiethe / it is enough they be not against the worde. Wherin iff there were no diuersitie / the Ans. is in fault: which in his greedines off findinge fault / con∣demneth that in the Adm. which he is constreined to allowe off. But in deed they are not all one. For albeit it can not be / but that which is not agreable vnto the worde off God / is against the worde off God: and off the otherside / that which is not against the worde off God / is agreable vnto yt: yet he that so saithe / that certaine thīges must be doone not a∣gaīst the worde / that he wil not also accorde / that they should be doone accordinge to the worde: gyuethe thereby to vnder∣stand / that there is some star or light off reason / or learninge or other helpe / whereby some act may be well doone / and ac∣ceptably vnto God / in which the worde off God was shut out / and not called to counsaile: as that which either coulde not / or neede not / giue any direction in that behalfe. Nowe in this later boocke / and in this diuision he saithe: that nothinge ought to be doone in the churche, but accordinge to the true meaninge off the worde. And afterwarde saithe / that he agreethe vnto this sentence off mine: that in makinge orders, and ceremonies off the churche, it is not lavvfull to doo vvhat men liste: but they are bovvnde to follovve the generall rules off the scripture / that are giuen to be a squire / whereby those are to be squared out. And thus in the end the A. is constreined / to yelde him sel¦fe to that / which he hathe before founde fault with. for if no∣thinge

may be doone in makinge orders off the churche / but accordinge to the generall rules off the scripture / and those ge¦nerall rules be commaundementes: it folowethe / that nothin∣ge may be doone in makinges orders for the church / but ac∣cordinge to the commaundement off God. Which is that w∣hich the Adm. did set downe.

And wheras he woulde make the reader belieue / that we haue giuen backe / in that we confesse certeine orders may be established in the churche / which are not expressed in the worde off God: I haue shewed / howe the Adm. is very vn∣truely charged with that sentence: there beinge neither the same / nor the valew off those wordes to be founde in it. This therefore beinge agreed on off bothe sides: we might haue here shut vp these controuersies / sauinge that the A. holdinge this doctrine in wordes / dothe notwithstandinge in deede continue the siedge against it: in that all those places / which I haue alledged for proof off it / he doothe by shamefull and open corruptions / essaye to ouerthowe.

And to the first place / whiche is that the wisdome of god in his worde / doothe teache men euery good way / and there∣fore * 1.16 the way which ought to be taken in the establishement of orders / and ceremonies in the churche: he asketh me in gre∣at scorne / what that maketh to the purpose? in deede to proue that which he vntruly / and contrarie to my playne wordes / in his answer to al my argumētes surmiseth to be my pourpose (that is / that no lawe ought to be made in the churche / which is not expressed in the worde) I say to proue this / I graunt it is not sufficient: but to proue that all thinges owght to be doone in the church / not onely not against the com̄aundement / but also accordinge to the commaundement of God (which was that which I propounded / and he denied) it is more sufficient / then he is hable to answer. His answer also / which supposeth this sentence directed vnto princes and magistrates (onely belike in that he saithe my sonne) is vttered withowte all iudgemēt: consideringe that Salomon / by that title speaketh vnto all the children off god / of what callinge soeuer they be / as it is mani∣fest by the writer to the Hebrues. * 1.17

To the next argument / grounded vppon the authoritie off Saint Paul / (which is / nothinge can be doone to the glo∣rie * 1.18 off God / withowt ebedience: all thinges doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God / are withowt obe∣dience: therefore nothinge doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God / can be doone to the Glory off God) to this argument / which he calleth vndigested: he answe∣reth by repetition off my wordes / and that Saint Paul•• meaninge is / that nothinge be doone against the worde. Which how absurde an answer it is / when bothe that is the question / and I haue expressly vrged the Testimo∣nye off the worde off God to be required / let all men Iudge.

The next argument / which he saithe is euill framed / is apparant. Wheresoeuer faithe is wantinge / there is syn∣ne: in euery action not commaunded / faithe is wantinge: therfore in euery action not commaunded / there is sinne. To this be answereth: that the wordes off Saint Paul (not to be * 1.19 off faithe) signifie that we ought to doo nothinge / against our conscience. Which both is very absurde / and ouerthro∣weth the sense off the Apostle. For hauinge shewed / that he which doothe any thing doubtingly / is condemned: he as∣signeth immediately / this to be the reason / because he dooth it not off faithe. So that the Apostle calleth that doone not off faithe / which is doone doubtingly: But he is sayde to doo agaynst conscience / which hauinge his knowledge / and persuasion setled / goeth aga∣ynst yt.

And where he saithe / that the wordes going before (which are Blessed is he that condemneth not hym selffe, in the thing vvhich he allovvethe) do proue that sense off his: it is spoken withowt all consideration off the place For how com∣meth yt to passe / that he rather referrethe these wordes off Saint Paule not to be off faithe, to this sentence / which is

farther remoued: then to that off doing with dowbte / which goeth immediately before / yea wherwith it is coupled in the same verse / withe a coniunction causall? And althowghe the reason sometime be referred / vnto that which goethe farther off: yet that is bothe rarely / and then / when by no meanes yt can agree withe that / wich goeth immediatelie before. Which can not be here / considering especially / that it could not be vn∣knowen / but that he which dothe against his conscience / sin∣neth / wherby the Apostle should neede make any proufe of it. but off him which doothe a thing staggering and waueringe / ther might be some dowbte / whether he synned. and therfore the Apostle hauinge said / that he is condemned in so doinge: addethe this reason / for that he dothe it not of faithe, which beinge sinne / is therfore damnable.

Where he saithe / that if a man should do nothinge wheroff he hathe not assurance by the word off God, that he dothe well: that ther∣by should be ouerthrowne Christian libertie in indifferent thinges: the faulte is / in his want off vnderstanding. For euen those thin∣ges that are indifferent / and maye be donne / haue their fredo∣me grounded off the word off God: so that onlesse the word off the lord / either in generall or especiall wordes / had deter∣mined off the free vse off them: there could haue bene no law∣full vse off them at all. And when he seethe / that S. Paule spe∣aketh here off ciuill / priuate / and indifferent actions / as off ea∣ting this or that kind of meate (then the which their can be no∣thing more indifferent:) he might easely haue seene / that the sentence off the Apostle / reacheth euen to his case / off taking vpp a straw. For iff this rule be off indifferent thinges / and not off all: I would gladlie know off him / what indifferent thinges it is giuen off / and off what not. And the same also I require off him in the other generall rule / off doing all thinges to the glorie off god. For iff that reache vnto all indifferent th∣inges it must needes comprise also this action of his. Which iff it doo / then as no man can glorifie God / but by obedience / and here is no obedience / but where there is a worde: it must followe / that their is a worde.

And semethe it so strange a thinge vnto him / that a man should not take vp a straw / but for some pourpose / and for some good pourpose? or will he not giue the lord leaue / to re∣quire off a Christian man / endewed with the spirite off God / as muche / as the heathen require off one / which is onelie en∣dued with reason / that he should do nothing / wheroff he ha∣the not some ende / and that in all his doinges whether publi∣cke / or priuate / at home / or abroade / whether withe him selfe / or with an other / he owght to haue regard / whether that w∣hich he dooth / be donne in dutye or no? And iff the taking vp off a straw / be donne to good ende / either off helping him sel∣fe / or others / regarde of profite / or pleasure / or what els: it ha∣the testimonie off the word off God. And if it haue not an en∣de / and a Good ende: will not the A. giue the lord leaue to cō∣demne that in his infinite wisdome / which men by the light off a litle wisdome / do accompte folishe? or will he be so iniu∣rious to the iustice off god / that he maie not iudge that to be synne / whiche they saye is donne against dutie? What also? that some euen off those heathen men / haue tawght / that no∣thing owght to be donne / wheroff thow dowbtest whether * 1.20 it be right or wronge. Whereby it appeareth / that euen those which had no knowledge of the word off God: did see mutche of the equitie of this / which the Apostle requireth of a Christiā man: and that the cheifest difference is / that where they sent men for the difference off good and euill / to the light off rea∣son / in suche thinges: the Apostle sendeth them / to the scoole of Christe in his worde / which onely is hable thoroughe faith / to giue them assurance / and resolution in their doinges.

And althoughe to mainteine his former vnaduisednes he had rather saie / that men should doo nothinge but which they be∣leue * 1.21 not to displease god, then with the godly learned to say / that they ought to doo nothinge / which they are not assuredly per∣swaded of / that it pleaseth God: yet euen this / which he sayeth off beleuinge that it doth not displease God, I would knowe off him / Where he can fetche the grounde off / but in the worde off God. For iff he doo beleue / that it doeth not displease God / and

beleife be not but in respect of the worde off god: it must fol∣lowe / that he hathe some word off God / which tellethe him / that that dothe not displease the Lorde.

And where he accusethe this doctrine / of bringing-men to dispere: he dothe it wronge. For when doubtinge is the wa∣ye to dispere / againste whiche this doctrine offrethe the rēme∣die it muste needes be / that it bringeth comforte / and ioye / to the conscience off man.

The reason which I assigned / why it is necessarie to ha∣ue the worde off God / goo before vs in all our actions (nam∣ely for that wee can not otherwise be assured / that they please God): he dothe not once touche. His secōde significatiō of th∣ese wordes / not to be of faithe, that is not to be an article of faithe: if it had any grace in it / yet it is merely idle in this place / and helpe the no more / to the vnderstanding of the place of Saint Paul nowe in hande / then smoke dothe the eyes. And where in the ende he saieth / that thes places doo proue as muche for all cyuill actions / as for ecclesiasticall: and that I can no more proue by thes / that a certaine forme off discipline is appoin∣cted in the Scripture / then that euerie ciuill action is precise∣ly commaunded to be doone without any change: I graunt it: neither did I alleadge them therefore / but was driuen into this disputacion / onely by occasion before alleadged in the be∣ginninge off this diuision / and manifestly expressed in the next.

7. Diuision pag. 86.

WHere as I alledged / that in making ceremonies and or∣ders off the churche / this owght to be obserued / which * 1.22 sainct Paul requireth / that they offende none / but especially that they offende not the churche off God: the first exception off the answerer is / that this rule prescribeth the dutye vnto priuate men, and not generally vnto the churche. As thoughe the rule were not generall / or this thinge were prescribed vnto them / in re∣spect of that they were priuate / and not in respect off beinge Christians / whether priuate / or publicke: in which case that

which is commaun̄ded to one ••s cōmaunded to ahor as if the Lorde were so carefull in priuate offences / and careles in pu∣blike. And iff offence ought to be taken heede off in thinges doone withowt many witnesses / withowte all countenaunce off autoritie / and once onely: how muche more owght yt to be taken heede off / in the orders off the church / which haue so many lookers on / so greate cōtinuance / and suche force off au∣toritie to strike yt deeper in?

His seconde exception is / that by this meanes the orders off the churche, shoulde be subiecte to one or twoo mens liking, or misliking. which answer procedeth off two foule an ouersight / and wan¦te off vnderstandinge off the worde offense, For Saint Pau∣le by offense / doothe not meane displeasure / or discontement: but that wherby / occasion is giuen to anie / of synne and trans∣gression off the lawe off God / which maie as well be with alowance / as disalowance / when all are pleased with that which is doone / as when they are displeased. And therfore in that signification which Saint Paul and our sauiour Ch∣rist before him take this word offense / the churche owghte to * 1.23 prouide / that there be no offense giuen to one alone.

His thirde exception / that I added this worde especiallie to the texte, is a mere cauill. For althowghe I vsed that worde / more then is in the texte: yet I bothe kepte the meaning / and layde y•• more open vnto the symple reader. And wher he sa••th / that the Apostell would haue men more carefull off offending those whiche are not yet come to the churche, then those which be off yt: yt is altogether vntrew / and not onely againste the meaning off the Apostle / but against the generall rule off loue: wherin thes degrees are assigned / that we (leuing all men) should especially loue those / which are members off the same bodye with vs. Whereupon yt foloweth / that the fruictes off loue (wheroff this is one off the principall / that we ••iue no occasi∣on off offense) owght rather to be performed toward them off the churche / then towardes straungers. And y•• being cer∣taine which S. Paul saithe / that we muste doo Good vnto all * 1.24 but especially to those which are off the how shoulde of faithe:

yt muste needes folow off the contrary / that we owght not to doo hurte vnto any / but especially vnto those / which are off the howshoulde off faithe. And this degree doothe our Sauiour Christe him selfe note / when he thundering againste offences / addethe this as an encrease / and an higher stepp in syn̄e: if be yt doone againste one of those which beleue in hym. * 1.25 And where he saithe / that straungers may be so withdrawne, whe∣ras there can be no suche feare off those whiche are alredie members off the churche: he speaketh bothe contrarie to all experience / and directly contrary to the Apostell / which disputing in this case * 1.26 of offense / saithe that the weake brother perisheth throwghe thes offences.

Laste off all (yff he require authoritie) Oecumenius / a mā myche liked of the answerer / thīcketh that he had an espe∣ciall care / to those that be alredy members of the churche: and Bucer hathe a longe treatise / wherin he proueth / that if either the Papistes / or those that are members off the churche mu∣ste be offended: that yt is more agreable / to prouide againste the offence off the churche / then off the papistes. * 1.27

The seconde rule he aloweth / but admittethe no com∣petent Iudges of yt / but suche as made the orders: as the pa∣pistes / whiche (alowing off the Scriptures) take them selues onely able / to iudge off the sense off them. And if there were but some few as he saithe / where as there are many thowsan∣sandes / and those all priuate men / where there be which ha∣ue charge: yet I wolde know of the A. whether the spirite off God / is tyed so ether to multitude / or to autoritie: that bothe a fewe / and priuate / may not espie faultes in the orders / which haue bene deuised by many and publike persons.

To the thirde rule / that all shoulde be doone vnto edify∣ing: he saithe that yt can not be applied to all thinges generally vsed in * 1.28 the churche, but to praiers, tounges, &c. specified in that chapter, as if it were not the ordinary of the Apostell / to proue the particu∣lers / by the generall / and so to conclude / that the exercises off praing / singinge &c. shoulde be doone to edifying / be∣cause all things muste so be doone. And where he woul∣de seeme / to ••ye the Signification / off edifying / onely

vnto instruction in the churche: yt is manifeste that the Apo∣stell / carying yt also vnto thinges indifferent / will haue this to be the rule / off our priuate actions / myche more off su∣che publike actions / as I haue before declared. And the wor∣des which saincte Paule vseth / doo not require / that ceremo∣nies * 1.29 and orders of the churche shoulde edifye (as he surmiset∣he): yt is sufficient to come vnder this rule off the Apostle / that they tende to edifyinge: and he can not be ignorant / that yt is one thinge to builde / and another thinge to tende to bu∣ilding.

For the 4 rule / which ys that they be doone to the glory of God / he will acknowledge yt to be no rule / to direct ceremo¦nies * 1.30 by / because yt is a rule to guide all actions whatsoeuer. which ys a very straunge argument / that because yt is a rule to guide all actions: therfore yt is no rule to direct the churches. And yff this be a sufficient cause off refusing yt as impertinent to this purpose: then that rule (which he off thes fowre dothe o∣nely allwe / as of that onely which he him selffe browght) mu∣ste also be iudged impertinent to this purpose / and so thruste owte off the doores with her followes. For there is nothing whatsoeuer a man doeth / whether priuately or publickly in matters either ciuill / or Ecclesiasticall: but he owght to kepe this rule / that yt be doone in order and in comelines.

Where vppon my wordes / And yet so left to the order off the church, that it doo nothing agaynst rhe rules afore∣sayde, he noteth that I am cōtrary vnto my selfe, and contrary vnto the the Adm. Why dooth he note not the cōtrarietye? Are these con∣trary? Yt is not enough, that the orders off the church be not against the vvord, onles they be grovvnded vppon the vvord: ād this / that they are so left to the order off the chur∣ch, that yt / doo nothing contrary to the rules aforesaide? Declaring my minde at large before / I haue in this last sen∣tence / put lesse then was in the other: but there is nothing contrary. I neuer dissented from him in that he saith / the chur∣ch may in making orders, doo nothing agaynst the word: but in this /

that he by reiecting the Admonition / denieth that they ought to be cut owt according to the word and commaundement off God: I bothe did / and doo still dissent from him.

The article off the Duche church / as yt is set downe off M. Beza / we doo fully agree with: which is / that vve ovvght * 1.31 to esteme thinges indifferent, by the circumstance off time, place, and person, vveighed by the skoles off the vvord off God. There are diuers thinges besides in this diuision / that are nothinge to the pourpose / and vnworthy any answere. And amongest others / what an vntollerable mockerie off the reader is yt / that where yt hath bene shewed / that the wor∣des off the Admonition / not commaunded in the scripture, owght to be taken for that / which is either particularly / or in the generall commaunded: he notwithstanding saith / that peraduenture we may shift yt, in saying that they ment, either generally, or particularly. Wherin in steade that he should haue proued / that they ment not so: he maketh a paraduenture off that / which hath bene before in so many wordes disputed.

Diuision 6. pag. 89.

IN that yow wounde vpp the lordes daye / withe other th∣inges which yow accounte merely indifferent neither set any marke in the foreheade off it / whereby we might vn∣derstande that yow had anie other estimation off it then off the reste: al men doo see / that I had Good cause to charge yow as I did. And euen now yowr answer which yow make / is ex∣presly againste that which yow haue written before. For yow affirme that the lordes daie is in the nomber off those which not to obserue / or once to call in question / is meere madnes. But in your former booke / after recitall of the lordes daye / and other thinges which yow accounte indifferente: yow close vp which this sentence / that there is none so simple, which vnderstande∣the not, that the churche hathe authoritie in those matters. Yf yt be mere madnes for the churche not to obserue the lordes daye:

how hathe the churche authoritie in that case? And yf yt ma∣ye not once moue question off it: how can yt take order in yt? your manner off speeche / wherby yow would goo betweene thes two sentēces / and helpe to set at one suche manifest con∣trarieties / are absurde: for yow saie / that the continuance off the lordes daye so longe, doothe proue yt necessarie to be obserued: and yet add / that yt maye be altered vpon great and especiall considerations. wheras if it be necessary to be obserued / it may not be altered: And if yt maye be altered / then it is not necessarie. Wherby appearethe how trewly I gathered off your wordes / which yow can not auoyde withowte suche senseles speeches.

Against that which I saide off Ecclesiasticall discipline / instituted in the 18 / off S. Mathew for contemners and ne∣glecters off the worde / and common praiers: yt is saide / and saide with greate wordes / that that place is to be vnderstanded off secret and particuler faultes, and not off open, and knowne. Wheras yt is more then manifest / that if the scripture giueth authoritie to reprehende priuate faultes: yt doothe myche more authori∣se to rebuke publike faultes. And if those faultes / which are doone againste one man: miche more those which are doone against the whole churche. And iff those which are doone a∣gainste the profit off men: myche more against those / which are doone againste the glorie off God. And if vppon refusall off Admonition / in those particuler and secrete cases / he will haue the churche procede to excommunication: how myche more will he / that that proceeding be obserued in thes open faultes? And yt ys to childishe / thus continually to stumble at this: that the wordes off the scripture shoulde haue no farther reache / then to that speciall case wheroff expresse men∣tion is made in the texte: and to leaue no place to argumentes off like / of more to the les / off les to the more / of contraries &c. and therbie to cut off all meditation off the worde of God / to destroye a greate parte off the vse off teachinge in the churche. Albeit in folowinge his owne interpretation / the contemners or neglecters off the worde and praiers / maye well be subie∣cte to this rule / (for it maye come to pas that one maye con∣temne the worde / &c. And yet in that manner as it shall be known

wne onely vnto one what opinion he norishethe of them) yet because that is not alwaies / let vs see further / what vnskilful∣nes it is which the A. doothe so greatly accuse in this allegatiō.

Saint Paul grounding him selfe vpon this place off our * 1.32 Sauiour / doubted not to drawe forthe the authoritie he had to excōmunicate / against the incestuous mā / whiche was no∣toriously knowne to haue offended the whole cōgregation / ād Hymineus / which had corrupted the puretie off the doctrine. * 1.33 And iff the A. saie trewly / that that doctrine off our Sauiour Christ touching excommunication / may be caryed no farther then to that case off priuate and secret iniuries: then Saint Paul drewe the sworde / and tawght to drawe yt / where yt owght not. And althowghe there be no mention made off the admonitions: yet they muste be off necessitie presupposed / for¦asmiche as it was not lawfull / to haue proceeded to that ex∣tremitie off cuttinge off by excommunication: if the offenders had lefte any place to admonitions / and wolde haue suffered themselues to haue bene cured by gentler medicines. What also that Saint Paul vpon the publike admonition which he * 1.34 gaue vnto certeine offenders / menaceth them that if they ad∣mit not his admonitions / and reprehensions / he will not spare them: doothe he not in those wordes giue them the threat off excommunication? And if he doo▪ then yt is cleare / that those admonitions being publike / were off publike / and knowne faultes / wherby folowethe that this rule off admonishing and reprehending / are forerunners vnto excommunication / e∣uen in publike faultes. And as he here fighteth against a ma∣nifeste trewthe: so he hathe himselffe for aduersarie: which af∣firmeth * 1.35 / that againste an heretike / bothe thes two admoniti∣tions which oure sauiour Christe speakethe of / and the excom∣munication afterward / owghte to be practised, oneles he will saie / that an heretike which is knowne to one onelie / owght so to be hādled ād that he which is notoriously knowne / owght to be free frō that censure. The place of M Caluin / is altogeter frō the pourpose, for I doo not say that priuate admonitions ought to be applied vnto publike offences / the Apostell of thē giueth order that suche offenders shoulde be rebuked openly. * 1.36

Onely I saide / that for contempte / and neglecte off the wor∣des (I might haue said for euerie faulte that tendeth either to the hurte of the neighbour / or to the hinderaunce off the glory off God) there be prescribed in the worde off God / admoni∣tions / and reprehensions / and if those will not serue / excom∣munications: but whether the admonitions and reprehensi∣ons shoulde be priuate or publike (that thinge hanging vpon the qualitie and kinde of the faulte) I affirmed nothing.

Now let vs see / what reuel he maketh with the ciuil Di∣scipline / appointed by the lawe of God: Where before he can * 1.37 giue one answer / he muste aske three questions: the firste is answered before in the beginninge / the laste is handled after∣warde in the 6. Ch. and 5. diuision. And as for that parte of the seconde questiō vvhich withe other his sainges folowing surmise that I woulde haue the negltcte of the worde puni∣shed by deathe: yt is directly against my expresse wordes / wh∣ich (hauing shewed the punishementes / that shoulde be exe∣cuted vpon contemners) add that there are other punishem∣entes for those / which neglecte the worde &c. And as to that parte off his question / which is whether contemners off the worde owght to be put to deathe: yt is as his other questions be / of thinges not onely affirmed / and set downe / but disputed off bothe partes. For this is that which we plainlie affirme / and bringe argumentes to proue. And when he that despi∣seth the worde of God / despiseth God himselfe: the equitie of this muste needes appeare / vnto all those in whome there is but a corne off the zeale and looue of the glorie off God / or rather in whō there is not some pleasure / to see the glorie of God troden vnder feete. But he saithe / that the place off Moses off putting Idolaters vnto deathe, maketh nothing to proue this. The re∣ason * 1.38 wherof he assignethe to be: because contemners / are not Idolaters. This is his ordinary faulte / that he can not vnder∣stande / that iff an Idolater owght to die: miche more a con∣temner of the worde. For contempte (althowghe yt be not in an action / which doothe vtterly ouerturne the seruice of God / as Idolatrie: but in one which staineth / or cracketh yt onely /

as is the breache off the Sabbothe) is yet shewed to be so di∣spleasante vnto the lorde / and so detestable: that that which off yt selfe / was not deadly / onely by this circumstance of con∣tempte / was punished with presente deathe / which may ap∣peare in him that gathered stickes on the Sabothe daye. The breache off the sabothe daie / was not simplie punishable by * 1.39 deathe / as Idolatrie was / myche les so small a breache / by the gathering off a fewe stickes: yet because yt was doone (as the scripture saithe) in a highe hande / that is to saie proudly and contemptuouslie: the lorde commaunded / that he shoulde be put to deathe / and setteth that downe for a generalle lawe. How myche more then / shall he which despisethe the worde off God / (which is the rule off the whole bodie off the seruice off God / and off that trew reste From our owne workes and from sinne / whereoff that bodelye reste / was a figure) be pu∣nished withe deathe? And iff because the lawe doothe not saie in thus many wordes / that a contemner shall die, yt be not lawfull to conclude / that he owght to be put to deathe: what wil the answerer saie / vnto the writer vnto the hebrues which * 1.40 saithe / that he that despisethe the lawe off Moses vnder two or three witnesses / was put to deathe withowt mercie? For by those wordes yt appearethe / not onely that a contemner of the lawe off Moses / owght by the lawe to die (which is that which I sett downe:) but also that the writer vpon th•••• and suche like places as I haue here alledged / gathered that whiche is no where in the lawe / found in the same wordes wherin he vttereth that sentence.

Touching the place off Deutronomy, which he saithe is onely vnderstāded off false witnesse: yt is apparāt / that althowghe yt fo∣lowe * 1.41 immediatly the lawe off puttinge a false witnesse to dea∣the: yet it is a generall sentence / and hathe regarde vnto all the crimes which are capitall. for iff false witnesses be put to dea∣the / and Idolaters or contemners remaine: how is the lande purged off the euills whiche drawe the wrathe off God vpon yt? or how is a terror stricken into the reste wherby they may be kepte from the infection off that synne? And if no punishe∣ment

/ but deathe / be hable to giue a sounde full enoughe to stricke a sufficiente terror of the synne off false witnes in su∣che a case: how myche more ys yt needefull / that there be as brymme / and as audible a punishement against Idolaters / and contemners of the worde / to the ingendring of that feare in others / wherby the reste maye be kepte / in the feare and tre∣we worship off the lorde.

The place off the Chronicles / is not answered: for yt is more generall / then the A. taketh yt: and is an exposition off * 1.42 the lawe. For where the lawe saithe / that he that seruethe straunge Gods shall die: this place saithe / that he shall die vvhich seekethe not the lorde, wher in are comprehended not onely Idolaters / but Atheistes / and mockers / and con∣temners off God: which is that which I had to proue. As for that he asketh off the perpetuite off thes lawes / yt is after∣warde spoken off.

In the ende he findeth faulte / that I (saying there are other punishementes for suche as neglecte the worde of God / according to the faulte) doo nether tell what they are / nor w∣here they be to be founde. I thowght that the mowthe of his vnderstanding had not bene so narrowe / but yt coulde easely comprehende / that if contempte be by the vvorde off God to be punished by deathe: that the neglecte off yt / owght not to escape the ciuile punishement / either in bodie / or Godes / &c. Why I did not recken them vpp / I assigned sufficiente cause: in that the varying / according to the quantitie off the faulte / more or les: coulde not be sett downe. And iff he will see in generall / what punishement the lawe of God aloweth of in such cases: he may reade in Esra. Where (beside the punishe∣ment off deathe / againste the transgressors off the lawe) the∣re * 1.43 be also appointed banishement / losse of Good / or impriso∣nement / as the qualitie off the faute required. And if he saye / that that vvas doone by the authoritie not off the lawe of God / but of a heathen prince: the answer is easie / that yt is very like / that the commission given to Esra / and authorised by the kinge / vvas drawne by Esra: vvhich vvas a cunninge

scribe in the lawe of God. At the lefte yt is manifeste / that he bothe accepted that / and amongeste other thinges gaue God * 1.44 thanckes for yt: which he wolde neuer haue doone / oneles ••t / had bene a Good interpetation off the lawe in that behalffe / considering that euen the ciuill and politike lawes / Wherby: the Iewes were thē (and in Iurie especially) gouerned▪ ought to be no other / then those which the lorde had prescribed in the lawe. And thus let yt be Iudged / what Good cause I had to aske / vvhat vvas become off the A. iudgement: vvhen he set dovvne, that there is no Discipline appointed ••n the worde off God, for those which shall contemne the worde off god, and common praiers.

Diuision 7. pag. 91.

THe answerer saide / that there was not one worde in the scri∣pture off pulpites or off sytting at the communion: in a worde I shewed / that ther was. And where he saithe the pulpit was pla∣ced in open streete: That vvas / because off their dwelling in ten∣tes / * 1.45 the feaste vvheroff they celebrated. For otherwise yt ap∣peareth / that suche a highe place in the temple / owte off the vvhich the voice off him vvhich spake might be hearde / vvas ordinary. The reason off calling the doctrine of Moses / the chaire of Moses / by a metonumie off the subiecte For the ad∣iuncte: I will leue to the reader to iudge of. for my iudgement off them / I saide / that they are not lightly to be chaunged: and he dispurethe against me / as if I had saide: that yt were not lawfull to chaunge thes vppon any occasion. And beside this dis∣puting againste his owne phansie / and not against my vvor∣des: he hathe violently broken into the question / off reading and interpreting the vvorde off God / vvithowt any the leste occasion giuen therof: and hathe also shamefully corrupted / the place off Nehemias / as shall be seene in the proper place.

8. Diuision pag. 92.

Here he accusethe me of falsifying his wordes / whiche haue

charged him vvith saying / that yt ys an indifferent thinge to prea∣che the worde of God in churches or howses priuately or publikely: wh∣erin he still vttereth his forheade / harder then any steele. For thes being his owne wordes / that the scripture speaketh not a worde of preaching or baptizing, openly or priuately, at home or in the church: doothe he not saye the same that I laye vnto him. W∣hat ys indifferent / yf that be not / vvhich the scripture saithe not a vvorde of / hathe not prescribed / hathe not determined / hathe not appointed? all vvhiche phrases he vseth / as those which signifie the same thinge. And when he addethe in the ende / that there is none so symple, that vnderstandeth, not that the chur∣che hathe authoritie to take order in thes thinges: dooth he not affir∣me the same? for the churche hathe authoritie onely in indiffe∣rent thinges to take order. So that it is more manifeste then the daie / that which I haue charged him with ones / he hathe saide twise / althowghe not in the same / yet in as full vvordes. And where he asketh / whether yt be all one to saye / the scripture hathe not determined whether baptisme should be ministred opēly or pri∣uately, at home or in the churche, and to saye / the churche maye ma∣ke baptisme priuate or publike: verelie they are in mine and I thin∣ke in all other indifferent iudgement / all one: and iff they we∣re not / yet as I haue shewed / yow haue saide bothe the one / and the other.

And vvhere yow saye / that I therby giue the reader to vn∣derstande, that yow affirme yt is in power off the churche, to apointe that ther shoulde be no publicke baptisme: althowghe I giue no more to vnderstande that / then that yow affirme / that it is in her po∣wer to appointe that ther should be no priuate baptisme: yet all men see / that this ys at the leste the weight off your wor∣des: that althowghe the churche shoulde abvse her power in apointing alwaies priuate baptisme / yet that must be obeied. For as when yow saie / that the scripture hathe not determined, w∣hether the communion shoulde be celebrated sitting, standing, or kneeling, baptisme in fontes, basons, riuers, &c. Your meaning is to affirme / that iff the churche will haue the communion alwaies recei∣ued

kneeling / or baptisme alwaies ministred in basone: that so it owght to be / and neuer either stāding or sitting or in fontes: so in saying that the scripture hathe not determined, whether the prea∣ching off the worde shoulde be publike, or priuate, &c. and that the chur¦che hathe the ordering of this thinge, yow affirme / that if the churche should allwaies ordeine / that preaching and baptizing shoul∣de be priuate: that so yt ought to be. Iff yow had saide / that yt had bene in the churches power / according to the former rules prescribed / to haue ordered / whether preaching and ad∣ministring the Sacramētes shoulde be in the towne or in the fielde / in a churche (as they call it) or in some one / mans house or other: I wolde haue moued no question againste yow. but when yow saye / that yt is in the power off the churche / to or∣deine whether yt should be publike / or priuate / I can not abi∣de yow for euen in the time of persequution / when it is prea∣ched in the howse off a priuate man: I haue shewed / that the churche assembling there / the meeting is publike / wherunto yow answer not a worde.

Againste the place I alledged oute off Salomon / he ex∣cepteth * 1.46 that it is strangelie applied, and farr fetched. Salomon in the chapter before / had shewed how the harlot / doothe lye in waite for men secrethe / and in the nighte time / and so (pressed with conscience of the euill / which she goethe abowte) shun∣neth the lighte / and sekethe secrete corners. In the beginnin∣ge off this chapter / he comparethe the wisdome off God in his worde / vnto a noble woman / whom he opposethe vnto the Harlot: and shewethe How she off the contrary parte / doothe not lie in waite / or seeke corners / or night / to hide her selffe in / or whisper in the eares off men / but exalteth her voice and speakethe in the moste open places / and corners off stre∣ates * 1.47 where the greateste concourse off people is. wherupon it may appeare / that iff the A. ether will / or vnderstanding we∣re at home / and not far from him: this place had bene nere enowghe the pourpose. For iff the worde muste be taught in suche sorte / as it maie beste be conueied vnto the knowled∣ge of moste men / and leste be charged with the seeking off cor∣ners

/ or the couer off the night: and yt is manifest / that that is better doone / when yt is preached publikly / then when yt ys preached priuately: yt must folowe / that by that saying of Sa∣lomon / yt is prescribed vnto the churche / that the preaching owght to be publike. And if there be not onely examples off Christe / and off his Apostles / but also a plaine commaunde∣ment (as I haue shewed) to preache the worde openly: then yt folowethe / that yf the churche haue power to order / whe∣ther the worde should be preached publikely / or priuately: yt hathe power to order / contrary to the commaundement of our sauiour Christe.

And where he saithe that the worde off god maye be taught prtuately, and that a man may exhorte priuately: that is nothing to the purpose. For we speake of the order which owght to be keepte in the exercises that concerne the bodie off the churche / and not of the priuate exhortations / teachings / and admoni∣tions / that ether the minister owght to vse towardes the se∣uerall persons off his flocke / or one priuate man towardes another / or the father off a howsholde in his familie / &c. And this is so farre from helping off him / that it makethe altoge∣ther againste him. For as yt is not in the churches power / to forbyd thes priuate teachinges / admonitions / exhortations / or to ordeine that thes teachings / &c. be publike / because the lorde hathe commanded thē to be priuate: so yt is not in her power / to take awaie the publike preaching of the worde: con∣sidering that the lorde also hathe commaunded yt. And ther∣fore yt ys vntrew / which he set downe: that the scripture hathe not determined, whether the worde shoulde be tawght, priuately, or publi∣kely. For by priuate men / yt hathe determined yt shoulde all∣wayes be doone priuately: by publyke persons also / yt shewe∣the how / and in what case / yt shoulde be spoken priuately: and how / and in what case / publikely: contrary wherunto the churche can not determine / and iff she determine a 100. tymes / she is not to be obeied.

And wheras vppon that / that neither the place / nor the

nomber off Persons / be off the substance off the wordes and Sacramentes / he woulde conclude / that it is in the power off the churche / to make the preaching / and administring off the Sacramentes / publike or priuate: he maye aswell saie (which he saide in his former booke) that yt is in the churches power to take order / whether men and women / shall come clothed / or naked to receiued the Sacramentes: considering that to co∣me either clothed / or naked / is not off the substance off the Sacramentes. Where he owght to vnderstande / that there are diuerse thinges annexed / and hanging by / which being commaunded by the worde off god: are no more in the chur∣ches libertie to alter / then yt is in her power to change the da∣ye into night. Howbeit as I haue shewed / that the place ot∣herwise priuate / being by the order of the churche appointed for the assemblie off the whole churche / is for that time of the assemblie publike: so yt may be well said / that the nōber which meete in that place which is so apointed by the churche / to he∣are the worde off God / (how small so euer yt be) can not hin∣der the publykenes off that assemblie. The places quoted in the margente / to proue priuate celebrating off the Sacra∣mentes: are handled in another place.

That which is alledged / owte of an article of the Suche churche / that thinges othervvise indifferent, doo after lavv∣full commaundement (after a sorte) chaunge theyr nature: we willinglie subscribe vnto howbeit / withe any thinge which is here in cōtrouersie / it hathe no knot at all / but is a wandring sentence / which hathe no fellow. For yt is not debated here / what force off authoritie the thinges haue / whiche the churche ordeineth: but the questiō is altogether / what are the thinges whiche fall into the churches order.

The nexte diuision / wherin he requireth answer vnto the place off the Corinthes / off doing all thinges decently / and orderly: ys answered in that I haue shewed / that the churche being bounde to this commandement in making her Ceremonies / is therbye tyed / not onelye to place no∣thinge in the churche agaynste the commandement off

God / but is bounde euen according to the commaundement / to frame her orders in indifferent thinges. Wherin the ans∣werer (althowghe he oppugneth the groundes which I vsed for the proofe off yt) doothe (I suppose) agree with me / and therfore there was no cause / he should haue required any answer.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Acta Ra∣tilboncu¦sia.
• * 1.2

  Quàm ip¦sarū scri∣pturarū verbis ex¦pressa ip∣sis tamen scripturae verbis im¦plicida.
• * 1.3

  9. Iosuah 14.
• * 1.4

  Deut. 20.
• * 1.5

  1. Sam. 21.
• * 1.6

  2. Iosue
• * 1.7

  1. Reg. 9:
• * 1.8

  2. Sam. 7. 7.
• * 1.9

  1. Chron. 17. 6.
• * 1.10

  In the 29. diuisiō of the first Article.
• * 1.11

  In the de¦fence off the Apo∣logie 5. parte ca. 15. diuisi∣on 1.
• * 1.12

  6. Rom.
• * 1.13

  8. Rom.
• * 1.14

  1. Cor. 3. 12. Col. 3. 19. 2, Pet. 2. 1.
• * 1.15

  Math. 26. ••3. 35.
• * 1.16

  2. Proue.
• * 1.17

  12. 5.
• * 1.18

  1. Cor 10. 1. Tim. 4.
• * 1.19

  14. Rom.
• * 1.20

  Cie. 1. off.
• * 1.21

  Caluin v∣pō the c∣pistle, and Insti. l. 3. ca. 15. s. 5.
• * 1.22

  1. Cor. 10.
• * 1.23

  Mat. 5. 29.
• * 1.24

  Gal. 6.
• * 1.25

  18. Mat. 6
• * 1.26

  1. Cor. 8. 11. Rom. 14. 15. 20.
• * 1.27

  Bucer v∣pon the 18. of S. Math.
• * 1.28

  1. Cor. 14.
• * 1.29

  Rom. 14. 19.
• * 1.30

  Rom. 14.
• * 1.31

  24. Epist.
• * 1.32

  1. Cor. 5.
• * 1.33

  2 Tim. 2. 18. 1. Tim. 2. 20.
• * 1.34

  2. Cor. 13.
• * 1.35

  Pag. 667.
• * 1.36

  1. Tim. 5.
• * 1.37

  8. sect pa. 5. off his booke.
• * 1.38

  22. Exo.
• * 1.39

  Num. 15. 30. 31. & 32.
• * 1.40

  10. Heb. 28.
• * 1.41

  19. Deut.
• * 1.42

  Chron. 2. 15.
• * 1.43

  •• Esra 26
• * 1.44

  ver. 27. 28
• * 1.45

  2. Chro. 6
• * 1.46

  Prou. 8.
• * 1.47

  6. Mat. 5.