The second replie of Thomas Cartwright: agaynst Maister Doctor Whitgiftes second answer, touching the Churche discipline

8. Diuision pag. 92.

Here he accusethe me of falsifying his wordes / whiche haue

charged him vvith saying / that yt ys an indifferent thinge to prea∣che the worde of God in churches or howses priuately or publikely: wh∣erin he still vttereth his forheade / harder then any steele. For thes being his owne wordes / that the scripture speaketh not a worde of preaching or baptizing, openly or priuately, at home or in the church: doothe he not saye the same that I laye vnto him. W∣hat ys indifferent / yf that be not / vvhich the scripture saithe not a vvorde of / hathe not prescribed / hathe not determined / hathe not appointed? all vvhiche phrases he vseth / as those which signifie the same thinge. And when he addethe in the ende / that there is none so symple, that vnderstandeth, not that the chur∣che hathe authoritie to take order in thes thinges: dooth he not affir∣me the same? for the churche hathe authoritie onely in indiffe∣rent thinges to take order. So that it is more manifeste then the daie / that which I haue charged him with ones / he hathe saide twise / althowghe not in the same / yet in as full vvordes. And where he asketh / whether yt be all one to saye / the scripture hathe not determined whether baptisme should be ministred opēly or pri∣uately, at home or in the churche, and to saye / the churche maye ma∣ke baptisme priuate or publike: verelie they are in mine and I thin∣ke in all other indifferent iudgement / all one: and iff they we∣re not / yet as I haue shewed / yow haue saide bothe the one / and the other.

And vvhere yow saye / that I therby giue the reader to vn∣derstande, that yow affirme yt is in power off the churche, to apointe that ther shoulde be no publicke baptisme: althowghe I giue no more to vnderstande that / then that yow affirme / that it is in her po∣wer to appointe that ther should be no priuate baptisme: yet all men see / that this ys at the leste the weight off your wor∣des: that althowghe the churche shoulde abvse her power in apointing alwaies priuate baptisme / yet that must be obeied. For as when yow saie / that the scripture hathe not determined, w∣hether the communion shoulde be celebrated sitting, standing, or kneeling, baptisme in fontes, basons, riuers, &c. Your meaning is to affirme / that iff the churche will haue the communion alwaies recei∣ued

kneeling / or baptisme alwaies ministred in basone: that so it owght to be / and neuer either stāding or sitting or in fontes: so in saying that the scripture hathe not determined, whether the prea∣ching off the worde shoulde be publike, or priuate, &c. and that the chur¦che hathe the ordering of this thinge, yow affirme / that if the churche should allwaies ordeine / that preaching and baptizing shoul∣de be priuate: that so yt ought to be. Iff yow had saide / that yt had bene in the churches power / according to the former rules prescribed / to haue ordered / whether preaching and ad∣ministring the Sacramētes shoulde be in the towne or in the fielde / in a churche (as they call it) or in some one / mans house or other: I wolde haue moued no question againste yow. but when yow saye / that yt is in the power off the churche / to or∣deine whether yt should be publike / or priuate / I can not abi∣de yow for euen in the time of persequution / when it is prea∣ched in the howse off a priuate man: I haue shewed / that the churche assembling there / the meeting is publike / wherunto yow answer not a worde.

Againste the place I alledged oute off Salomon / he ex∣cepteth that it is strangelie applied, and farr fetched. Salomon in the chapter before / had shewed how the harlot / doothe lye in waite for men secrethe / and in the nighte time / and so (pressed with conscience of the euill / which she goethe abowte) shun∣neth the lighte / and sekethe secrete corners. In the beginnin∣ge off this chapter / he comparethe the wisdome off God in his worde / vnto a noble woman / whom he opposethe vnto the Harlot: and shewethe How she off the contrary parte / doothe not lie in waite / or seeke corners / or night / to hide her selffe in / or whisper in the eares off men / but exalteth her voice and speakethe in the moste open places / and corners off stre∣ates where the greateste concourse off people is. wherupon it may appeare / that iff the A. ether will / or vnderstanding we∣re at home / and not far from him: this place had bene nere enowghe the pourpose. For iff the worde muste be taught in suche sorte / as it maie beste be conueied vnto the knowled∣ge of moste men / and leste be charged with the seeking off cor∣ners

/ or the couer off the night: and yt is manifest / that that is better doone / when yt is preached publikly / then when yt ys preached priuately: yt must folowe / that by that saying of Sa∣lomon / yt is prescribed vnto the churche / that the preaching owght to be publike. And if there be not onely examples off Christe / and off his Apostles / but also a plaine commaunde∣ment (as I haue shewed) to preache the worde openly: then yt folowethe / that yf the churche haue power to order / whe∣ther the worde should be preached publikely / or priuately: yt hathe power to order / contrary to the commaundement of our sauiour Christe.

And where he saithe that the worde off god maye be taught prtuately, and that a man may exhorte priuately: that is nothing to the purpose. For we speake of the order which owght to be keepte in the exercises that concerne the bodie off the churche / and not of the priuate exhortations / teachings / and admoni∣tions / that ether the minister owght to vse towardes the se∣uerall persons off his flocke / or one priuate man towardes another / or the father off a howsholde in his familie / &c. And this is so farre from helping off him / that it makethe altoge∣ther againste him. For as yt is not in the churches power / to forbyd thes priuate teachinges / admonitions / exhortations / or to ordeine that thes teachings / &c. be publike / because the lorde hathe commanded thē to be priuate: so yt is not in her power / to take awaie the publike preaching of the worde: con∣sidering that the lorde also hathe commaunded yt. And ther∣fore yt ys vntrew / which he set downe: that the scripture hathe not determined, whether the worde shoulde be tawght, priuately, or publi∣kely. For by priuate men / yt hathe determined yt shoulde all∣wayes be doone priuately: by publyke persons also / yt shewe∣the how / and in what case / yt shoulde be spoken priuately: and how / and in what case / publikely: contrary wherunto the churche can not determine / and iff she determine a 100. tymes / she is not to be obeied.

And wheras vppon that / that neither the place / nor the

nomber off Persons / be off the substance off the wordes and Sacramentes / he woulde conclude / that it is in the power off the churche / to make the preaching / and administring off the Sacramentes / publike or priuate: he maye aswell saie (which he saide in his former booke) that yt is in the churches power to take order / whether men and women / shall come clothed / or naked to receiued the Sacramentes: considering that to co∣me either clothed / or naked / is not off the substance off the Sacramentes. Where he owght to vnderstande / that there are diuerse thinges annexed / and hanging by / which being commaunded by the worde off god: are no more in the chur∣ches libertie to alter / then yt is in her power to change the da∣ye into night. Howbeit as I haue shewed / that the place ot∣herwise priuate / being by the order of the churche appointed for the assemblie off the whole churche / is for that time of the assemblie publike: so yt may be well said / that the nōber which meete in that place which is so apointed by the churche / to he∣are the worde off God / (how small so euer yt be) can not hin∣der the publykenes off that assemblie. The places quoted in the margente / to proue priuate celebrating off the Sacra∣mentes: are handled in another place.

That which is alledged / owte of an article of the Suche churche / that thinges othervvise indifferent, doo after lavv∣full commaundement (after a sorte) chaunge theyr nature: we willinglie subscribe vnto howbeit / withe any thinge which is here in cōtrouersie / it hathe no knot at all / but is a wandring sentence / which hathe no fellow. For yt is not debated here / what force off authoritie the thinges haue / whiche the churche ordeineth: but the questiō is altogether / what are the thinges whiche fall into the churches order.

The nexte diuision / wherin he requireth answer vnto the place off the Corinthes / off doing all thinges decently / and orderly: ys answered in that I haue shewed / that the churche being bounde to this commandement in making her Ceremonies / is therbye tyed / not onelye to place no∣thinge in the churche agaynste the commandement off

God / but is bounde euen according to the commaundement / to frame her orders in indifferent thinges. Wherin the ans∣werer (althowghe he oppugneth the groundes which I vsed for the proofe off yt) doothe (I suppose) agree with me / and therfore there was no cause / he should haue required any answer.

Notes

• Prou. 8.
• 6. Mat. 5.