A replye to an ansvvere made of M. Doctor VVhitgifte Against the admonition to the Parliament. By T.C.

To the next section in the. 46. page.

NOw you would proue that thys election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time. But you haue forgotten your selfe / which sayde a little before / that this election by the church / was not only in the Apostles times / but also in the tyme of Cyprian: now you say otherwise. And if the election of the ministery by the church agree so wel with the time of persecution / and when there is no christian Magistrate / how commeth it to passe / that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte / and there were no such Magistrates / that S. Paule would haue the election by one man / and not by the church. Besydes that / if this be S. Paule hys commaundement / that the byshop should only chuse the mini∣ster / why doe you make it an indifferent thing / and a thing in the power of the church to be varyed by times / for this is a flarte commaundement. Thus you see you throwe downe with one hand / as fast as you builde with the other. But to answere directly to the place of the fifthe of the first to Timothe.

I saye first / that S. Paule wryteth to Timothe / and therefore instructeth hym what he should do for his parte in the appoynting of the minister. If he had written to the whole Churche of Ephesus / he would lykewise haue instructed them how they should haue behaued thē selues in that businesse. If one do wryte vnto hys frende / that hath interest in any election / to take heede that he chuse none but such as are meete / shall any man conclude therupon / that none hath to doe in that election / but he to whom that letter is writtē? Then I say further / that S. Paule attributeth that vnto Timothe / that was common to moe with hym / because he being the director and moderator of the election / is sayde to doe that whiche many doe: which thing I haue proued by dyuers examples both out of the scripture / and otherwise before. And euen in this imposition of handes / it is manifestly to be shewed. For that where as S. Paule sayth in the 2. Epistle / that Timothe was ordayned by the putting on of hys hands vppon hym / in the first Epistle he sayth / that he was ordayned by the putting on of the handes of the eldership. So that that which he in one place taketh to him selfe alone / in the other he communicateth with moe. And that he dyd it not him selfe alone / it may appeare by those wordes which folow (and communicate not with other mens sinnes) as if he should saye / if other will ordeyne insuffycient ministers / yet be not thou caryed away with their example. And further that his authoritie was equall with other elders of that church / and that he had no superioritie aboue his fellowes / it may appeare / for that he sayth lay thy hands rashly of none / where if he had had authoritie ouer the rest / he would rather haue sayd / suffer none to lay

his handes rashly. Agayne / it is a fault in you / that you can not distinguishe or put difference betweene the election and imposition of handes.

Last of all / I answere that although this might agree to Timothe alone / as in deede it can not / yet it followeth not that euery Bishop may do so. For Ti∣mothe was an Euangelist / which was aboue a Bishop / as hereafter shall bet∣ter appeare. And it is an euill argument to say the greater may do it / therfore the lesse may do it. The superiour / therfore the inferioure. If you were at any cost with producing your witnesses / you should not be so vnwise to be so lauishe of them / as to cite Ambrose / and Chrisostome / to proue a thing that none hath e∣uer denyed. For who denyeth that S. Paule doth not geue warning to Timo∣the to be circumspect? If you meane to vse their testimonie to proue that he only made the elections / they saye neuer a word for you / if there be any thing / cite it. To the place of Titus / I answere as to that of Timothe / for there is nothing there / but agreeth also to thys place. And as for Ierome he hath nothing in that place / as he hath in no other / to proue that to the Bishop only / doth belong the right of election of the minister.

I haue shewed you reasons before / why it cā not be so taken of the sole elec∣tion of the Bishop / the church being shutte out. If authoritie woulde doe any good in thys behalfe / as it seemeth it ought / seeing that all your proofe throughe out the whole booke / is in the authorities of men / (which Aristotle calleth a∣technas peiseis, vncunning proofes) I coulde sende you to maister Calum / which teacheth / that it is not to be thought that S. Paule woulde permit to Titus to ordayne byshoppes and ministers by hys owne authoritie / when he hym selfe would not take so much vpon hym / but ioyned hys with the voyces of the church. But he peraduenture sauoureth not your tast / and yet you woulde make men beleue sometimes / that you make muche of hym if you can gette but one worde vnioynted / and racked in peeces from the rest / to make good your part. If hee weyghe not with you / you haue maister Musculus / whome you take to bee a great patrone of youres in thys cause / which dothe with greater vehemencie af∣firme the same thing that mayster Caluin sayth / asking whether any man can beleeue that Paisle permitted in thys place to Titus / or in the place before al∣ledged to Timothe / that they shoulde ordayne of theyr owne authoritie / and by them selues / when as Paule woulde not doe it but by the voyces and election of the churche.

In the ende you say it is the generall consent of all the learned fathers / that it belongeth to the byshop to chuse the minister. Because you acquaint my eares with such bolde and vntrue affirmations / I can now the more paciently heare you thus vaunting your selfe / as though you had all the fathers by heart / and ca∣ryed them about with you / wheresoeuer you went / whereas / if a man woulde measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere / he woulde hardly beleeue that you had redde the tenthe part of them.

Are all the learned fathers of that mynde? I thinke then you would haue bene better aduised then to haue sette downe but one / when as you know a mat∣ter in controuersie / will not be tryed but by two or three witnesses / vnlesse the Lord speake hym selfe / and therefore you geue me occasion to suspect that because you cite but one / you know of no more: now let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in thys matter.

And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely then simply / in that you haue altered Ieromes wordes. For where hee sayeth / wherein doth a byshoppe differ from an elder / but only in ordayning: you say a byshop doth excell all other mynisters. &c. I report me heere vnto your conscience / whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Ieromes hys sentēce / because you wold not let y^e reader vnder∣stand what oddes is betweene S. Ieromes bishops in his dayes / & betwene our

Lord Bishoppes. For then the byshop had nothing aboue an elder or other mi∣nister / but only the ordayning of the minister. Now he hath a thousande pari∣shes / where the minister hath but one. For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie / the bishop now excommunicateth / which the minister can not / ab∣solueth or receyueth into the church / which the minister can not. Besides diuers other things which are meere ciuill which the byshop doth / and which neither byshop nor other minister ought to doe. I say I reporte me to your conscience / whether you altered Ieromes wordes to thys ende / that you would keepe thys from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place / it is an euill argument to saye the byshop had the ordayning of the minister. Ergo he had the election of hym / the contrary rather is a good argument / the byshop had the or∣dayning of the minister / therefore he had not the election of hym. For ordinati∣on and election are dyuers members of one whole / which is the placing of the pa∣stor in hys church / and one member can not be verified of an other / as you can not say your foote is your hand. I will not deny / but that sometimes these wordes maye bee founde confounded in Ecclesiasticall wryters / but I will shewe you also / that they are distinguished / and that the election pertayneth to the people / and ordayning vnto the Byshop.

Vpon the sixte of the Actes the glose hath / that that which was done there of the xij. Apostles / in willing the brethren to loke out fitte men / was done to geue vs example / & muste be obserued in those that are ordayned. For sayth the glose / the people must chuse / and the Byshoppe must ordayne. And that S. Ie∣rome must be so vnderstanded / it appeareth not only that it hath beene so expoun∣ded: but also it may be casely proued / for that S. Ieromes sentence and iudge∣ment appeareth in other places / that he woulde haue nothing heere done with out the people / as in his Epistle / ad Rusticum monachum: he willeth that the peo∣ple shoulde haue power and authoritie to chuse their clarkes and their ministers / and in hys Epistle to Neopotian / of the lyfe of the clarkes / he hath thys distinc∣tion manifestly: They runne / sayth he / vnto the Bishoppes suffragans certen times of the yeare / and bringing some summe of money / they are annoynted / and ordayned / being chosen of none / and afterwarde / the Bishoppe without any lawfull election / is chosen in hugger mugger / of the Canons or Prebendaries only / without the knowledge of the people. And so you see / that although y^• S. Ierome sayeth / that the Byshop had the ordayning of the ministers / yet he had not the election / for the ordayning was nothing else but an approuing of the elec∣tion / by putting on of handes / and consequently / hauing made your vaunt that all the learned fathers were of thys iudgement / that the Bishop should elect the minister / you shew not so much as one.

Now will I shewe you the cleane contrary of that you saye / not that I gladlye trauaile thys wayes / for if you had not constrayned me / you shoulde not haue hearde one voyce thys way. And woulde to God that you woulde be con∣tent / especially when you meete with those that will be tryed by the scriptures / to seeke no farther strengthe then they geue you. But I am lothe you shoulde oppresse the truthe / and make all men afrayde of it / by making them beleeue / that it is so desolate and forsaken of her frendes / as you pretende. You confesse S. Cyprian is agaynste you herein / and he was a learned father / and a Martyr al∣so / whych dyd not only vse thys forme of election / but also taught it to be necessa∣ry / and commaunded / and therefore me thincketh you shoulde not haue sayde all the learned fathers without exception. You see also S. Ierome is of an other iudgement. S. Augustine also / when hee speaketh how hee appoynted Eradi∣us to succeede hym / sheweth / howe it was the approued right and custome / that the whole church shoulde eyther chuse / or consent of their Bishoppe. And * Ambrose sayeth / that that is truely and certaynely a diuine election to the office

of a byshop / which is made of the whole church. Eregorius Nazianzene in the Oration which he had at the death of hys father / hath diuers things which proue that the election of the minister pertayned to the Churche / and confuteth those thinges which should seeme to hinder it. These were learned fathers / and yet thought not that the election of the pastor or byshop / pertayned to one man alone but that the church had also hir interest / therefore you see all the learned fathers are not of that mynde / you say they are.

And that thys election continued in the churche / vntill within a three hun∣dred yeares / at what time there was more then Egyptiacall / and palpable darck∣nesse ouer the face of the whole earth / it may appeare in a Treatise of Flaccus Illir••cus / whiche he calleth an addition vnto hys booke that he entituleth the Catalogue of the witnesses of truthe / of whome I confesse my selfe to haue bene muche holpen in thys matter of the choyse of the church touching the ministers: especially in the Emperoures Edictes which are before cited. For lacking op∣portunities diuers wayes / I was contented somewhat to vse the collection to my commoditie / for the more speedie furtheraunce / and better proceeding in other matters / which I will leaue of / because they may be there red of those that be learned / whome I will also referre to the sixe and seuen bookes of Eusebius / wher both the formes of the electiōs in those tymes are described / & wher / besides that the customes of the peoples choise is set forth / there are examples of the electi∣on of the people and cleargie / which were confirmed by the christian Magistrate / namely in the Byshop of Constantinople. And these may suffice for the other that haue not that commoditie of bookes / nor habilitie / nor skill to reade them / be∣ing in a straunge tongue / to knowe / that besides the institution of God in his worde / thys manner of election dyd continue so long / as there was any light of the knowledge of God / in the churche of God. I will adde only one place / which if it be more bitter then the rest / and cutte the quicke more neare / you shall not bee angry with me / but first with those that were the authors of it / and then wyth him that wrote it.

Eusebius speaking of Origine / which was admitted not of one Bishop / but of many Byshoppes to teache / sheweth how the Byshoppes were reprehen∣ded by the Byshoppe of Alexandria called Demetrius / because they had admit∣ted him without the election of the presbyterie of the churche / which were the cheefe in the election in euery church / and vnto the which the churches did com∣mitte the gouernment of them selues in euery seuerall towne and Citie / & sayth / that it hath not beene hearde that laikous shoulde homilein paronton ton episco∣pon: which is / that the lay men should teach when the Byshoppes were present / whereby it is euident / that he counted hym a lay man / which was only admitted by the Byshops / although they were many / not being first elected by the presby∣terie of that church wherof he was the teacher.

Seing then that the scripture doth teache thys order / that there shoulde be no minister thrust vppon the churche / but by the consent thereof / and reason per∣swadeth that wayes / and the vse of the churche hath beene so from time to time / both in peace and in time of persecution / bothe vnder tyrantes and godly Prin∣ces / it can not be without the highe displeasure of almightie God / the great hurte and sore oppression of the churche / that one man shoulde take thys vnto hym / which pertayneth to so many / or one minister / which pertayneth to more then one / especially / where the aduise of learned ministers may concurre with the peo∣ples election or consent.

Now if any man will rise vp and saye / that this doctryne bringeth in disor∣der / and by thys meanes children / and boyes / and wemen shoulde haue their voyces / whiche is vnseemely / all men vnderstand that where the election is most

freest and most generall / yet only they haue to doe / which are heades of families / and that thys is but a meere cauill to bring the truth in hatred / which is vnwor∣thy to be answered / & requireth rather a Censor / then a Disputer to suppresse it.

Notes

• 2. Tim. 1. 6.
• 1. Tim. 4/12.
• Musculus in his common places in his title of the elec∣tion of mini∣sters.
• Epist. 81.
• 6. Lib. cap. 20.