A cleare, sincere, and modest confutation of the vnsound, fraudulent, and intemperate reply of T.F. who is knowne to be Mr. Thomas Fitzherbert now an English Iesuite. Wherein also are confuted the chiefest obiections which D. Schulckenius, who is commonly said to be Card. Bellarmine, hath made against Widdrintons [sic] Apologie for the right, or soueraigntie of temporall princes. By Roger Widdrington an English Catholike.

Chap. 4.

Wherein the true state of the question, concerning the subiection and subor∣dination of the temporall power among Christians to the spirituall is propoun∣ded, and the different opinions of Ca∣tholikes touching this point are rehear∣sed.

1. FIrst therefore, that you may perceiue the true state of the question, and wherein I doe agree with Card: Bellarmine, and wherein we differ, I doe agree with him in this, that Christian Princes, in whom the supreme temporall power doth reside, be∣ing the sheepe of Christ, no lesse then inferiour per∣sons, are subiect to the supreme visible Pastour of the Church of Christ: but the question is, in what things, and also in what manner they are subiect. Secondly, we also agree in this, that Christian Princes are in spi∣rituall things, or which doe belong to Christian faith and Religion, subiect not onely to the directiue, or commanding power, but also in spirituall punish∣ments to the coerciue or punishing power of spiri∣tuall Pastors, in such sort, that Christian Princes are not onely bound to obey the command of their spi∣rituall Pastors, in things which doe concerne Chri∣stian faith and religion, but also, if they be disobedi∣ent, they may with spirituall punishments he punished and compelled therevnto. Thirdly, we doe also a∣gree in this, that Christian Princes are bound to obey the commanding power of spirituall Pastours, not only in those things, which of their owne nature are

Ecclesiasticall or spirituall, but also in things tempo∣rall, when by accident they become spirituall; in so much that a spirituall Pastor hath authoritie to com∣mand a temporall Prince to vse or not vse his tempo∣rall power, when it is necessarie or hurtfull to Catho∣like faith and religion, but this is nothing else, then that temporall Princes in things spirituall (for whe∣ther they be per se, and of their owne nature, or onely by accident spirituall, it little importeth) are subiect to the commanding power of spirituall Pastors, as likewise all temporall causes and crimes, whether of their owne nature, or onely by accident they become temporall, are subiect to the commanding and co∣erciue power of temporall Princes.

2 But the controuersie betwixt me and Card: Bellarmine is concerning two things; the first is, con∣cerning the commanding power, to wit, whether temporall Princes are subiect to the commanding power of spirituall Pastors, not onely in things spiri∣tuall, and in temporall, when they become spirituall, but also in meere temporall things; for this is pro∣perly temporall power (taking temporall power in abstracto) to be subiect to the spirituall For as a Mu∣sician can not truly be said to be subiect, as he is a Mu∣sician, and in all things belonging to Musicke, to a Physition as he is a Physition, for that Musicke is not per se, and of it owne nature referred to Physicke, and if Musicke were per se, and of it owne nature subiect to Physicke, a Musician, as he is a Musician, and in all things belonging to Musicke, should be subiect to a Physician, as he is a Physician: for which cause a Shipwright, as he is a Shipwright, hath intrinsecall re∣ference to a Nauigator, for that the Art of making ships is per se, and of it owne nature ordayned for nauigation; So also if the temporall power among Christians be per se, and of it owne nature subiect to the spirituall power, it must follow, that temporall

Princes, who are Christians, are, as they are temporall Princes, and in all things belonging to temporall power, subiect to spirituall Pastours, as they are spiri∣tuall Pastours: And if temporall Princes, who be Christians, are not subiect, as they are temporall Princes, to spirituall Pastors, as they are spirituall Pa∣stors, the temporall power among Christians is not per se, and of it owne nature subiect to the spirituall power.

3 The second thing, which is in controuersie be∣twixt me, and Card. Bellarmine, is concerning the co∣erciue power of spirituall Pastors, to wit, whether tem∣porall Princes are subiect to the coerciue power of spirituall Pastors in such sort, that spirituall Pastors, (especially the Pope, who is the supreme Pastour of all Christians) haue by the institution of Christ au∣thoritie, to depriue temporall Princes of their King∣domes, to dispose of all their temporalls, and to pu∣nish them temporally, or with all kinde of temporall punishments, in case they will not obey their iust command. And this is the maine point, and prin∣cipall scope, at which both the Canonists, who hold that the Pope hath directly power in temporals in ha∣bit, although the vse they haue committed to tempo∣rall Princes, and also the Diuines, who hold that hee hath onely indirectly, that is, in order to spirituall good, power in temporalls, doe chiefly aime. Now concerning these two points, there be three different opinions of Catholikes.

4 The first opinion is of the Canonists, who holding, that the Church of Christ, whereof the Pope is the supreme visible head, doth consist both of tem∣porall and spirituall power, doe consequently hold, that all Christian Princes, not only as they are Chri∣stians, but also as they are temporall Princes, are in all temporall causes subiect to the commanding power, and in all temporall punishments subiect also to the

coerciue power of the Pope, whom they make the su∣preme, both temporall and spirituall Monarch of the world, and to haue directly both temporall and spi∣rituall power, although the vse, exercise, and execu∣tion of his temporall power, he hath out of the terri∣tories of the Church, committed to Secular Princes, as to his Ʋice-Royes, Vicegerents, or Deputies: and this doctrine some Lawyers held to be so certaine, that they were not afraid to condemne the contrarie as hereticall, for which they are worthily taxed by Coverruviasd 1.1 of great temeritie; But with this opi∣nion, for that it is commonly reiected by all Diuines, and confuted also by Card: Bellarmine himselfee 1.2, I will not at this time intermeddle.

5 The second opinion is of many Schoole-Di∣uines especially of these later times, who although they seeme greatly to mislike the Canonists opinion, in that the Canonists hold the Pope, as Pope, to haue directly, not only spirituall, but also temporall power, and to be both a temporall Monarch, and also a spiri∣tuall Prince and Pastour of the whole Christian world, yet in effect they doe giue as full and ample authoritie to the Pope ouer Christian Princes, as the Canonists do; for whatsoeuer the Canonists affirme, that the Pope can directly effect by his temporall power, the same doe the Diuines affirme, that he can effect indirectly, and in order to spirituall good by his spirituall power: And therefore, although they will not grant, that the Pope hath formally temporall power, but only spirituall, yet they grant, that this spirituall power of the Pope is virtually, and in effect temporall; and that therefore the Pope by his spiri∣tuall power can in order to spirituall good depriue temporall Princes of their kingdomes, dispose of all their temporalls, punish them with all kinde of tem∣porall punishments, and finally whatsoeuer tempo∣rall Princes can by their temporall power doe for the

temporall good, they affirme that the Pope by his spirituall power can doe for the spirituall good. Yea some of them doe so extend this spirituall good and spirituall harme, taking spirituall harme, not only for spirituall crimes, as heresie, Apostacie, and such like, but also for all temporall crimes, as are drunkennesse, fornication, and the like, that they giue a more ample power to the Pope, to depriue Princes of their king∣domes, then by temporall lawes is vsually granted to temporall Princes to depriue their subiects of their lands, who for whoredome, drunkennesse, and many other temporall crimes, can not vsually by the lawes of any Christian kingdome bee depriued of their lands and possessions.

6. The third opinion is of many other learned Ca∣tholikes both Diuines and Lawyers whom I cited be∣fore,f 1.3 who although they agree with the second opi∣nion in this, that the Pope hath power to command temporall Princes in spirituals, but not in meere tem∣porals, and to punish them with spirituall punish∣ments, when they refuse to obey his iust command, yet that the Pope hath any coerciue power (call it spi∣rituall or temporall, for in effect it is truely tempo∣rall) to inflict temporall punishments, to dispose of temporals for the spirituall good, or to depriue tem∣porall Princes of their temporall dominions, they vt∣terly denie, affirming, that onely Excommunication, or some such like spirituall punishment, is the last, to which the Popes coerciue power can extend: And this their doctrine, which Card. Bellarmine, and some few others of his Society, haue presumed to condeme as al∣together improbable, yea and wholly repugnant to Catholike faith, I haue taken vpon me to maintaine, as neither repugnant to Catholike faith or religion, nor preiudiciall to eternall saluation, and that therefore it may be defended by any Catholike without any note of heresie, errour or temerity.

7. These bee the different opinions of Catholikes concerning the subiection of the temporall power to the spirituall, wherby you see, that althogh all Catho∣likes doe grant, that temporall Princes, who are som∣times called temporall powers, are subiect to the spi∣rituall Pastour in things spirituall, and in temporall when they become spirituall, yet all doe not grant, that the temporall power it selfe, euen among Chri∣stians, is per se, and of it owne nature subiect to the spirituall, nor that the Pope, as Pope, hath any co∣erciue power to constraine and punish with temporall punishments, but onely with spirituall; Neither doth it follow, that because Christian Princes are subiect to the Pope, therefore they are subiect in all things, and in all manner of subiection, but onely in that sort, as Christ hath giuen him power both to command & punish: As children are subiect to their Parents, ser∣uants to their Masters, wiues to their husbands, yet they are not bound to obey them, but in those things, wherein they haue power to command, nor to be pu∣nished by them, but in that sort, as the temporall common-wealth, whereof they are members, hath expressely or couertly giuen them leaue to punish; and the reason is, for that they are not Superiours in an absolute and indefinite, but onely in a limited and determinate manner.

8. Now what opinion Card. Bellarmine doth fol∣low, whether of the Diuines, or of the Canonists, tru∣ly I cannot as yet well vnderstand. For although he seeme to disallow the Canonists doctrine, which at large he confuteth in his controuersies, yet to prooue the Popes power to depose Princes, and to dispose of temporals in order to spirituall good, hee laieth such grounds, concerning the vnion and subordination of the temporall and spirituall power among Christians, which doe cleerely confirme the Canonists doctrine. For concerning the vnion of these two powers, hee

affirmeth, as you haue seene, that the temporall and spirituall power, the kingdome of Christ, and the king∣domes of this world, when they are Christian, doe make one totall body, which is the Christian common-wealth and Church of Christ, whereof the Pope is head; from whence it necessarily followeth, that the Pope, in whom all the power of the Church doth reside, must haue truely, properly and formally both ciuill and spirituall power, which is the Cano∣nists opinion, and not onely spirituall power, which is not formally, but onely vertually ciuill, which the Diuines, and also Card. Bellarmine in places doe af¦firme. And now concerning the subiection and sub∣ordination of these two powers, he affirmeth, that the temporall power among Christians, not onely as it is Christian, but also as it is temporall, is subiect to the Ecclesiasticall, as it is Ecclesiasticall, or which is all one, that the temporall power it selfe among Christi∣ans is per se, and of it owne nature subiect to the spiri∣tuall: from whence it cleerely followeth as before I shewed by the examples of Musike and Physike, Christian Princes not onely in spirituals and in tem∣porals, when they become spirituals, which is in or∣der to spirituall good, but also in meere temporall causes, are subiect to spirituall Pastours, which is the Canonists opinion, and which Card. Bellarmine in o∣ther places doth disprooue.

9. But how vnsoundly Card. Bellarmine, and not conformably to his owne grounds laboreth to proue, that the temporall power it selfe among Christians, as it is temporall, is subiect to the spirituall, as it is spiri∣tuall, you shall anone perceiue. For six principall ar∣guments I doe finde in Card. Bellarmine, by which he endeauoureth to conuince, that the temporal power it selfe among Christians, as it is temporall, is subiect and subordained to the spirituall, as it is spirituall, or, which I take for all one, that the temporall power

among Christians is per se, and of it owne nature, sup∣posing the institution of Christ, subiect and subordai∣ned to the spirituall; which arguments of Card. Bel∣larmine I thinke it fit to examine in this place, together with the Replyes, which he either in his booke against D. Barclay, or in his Schulckenius against mee hath brought to confirme the same, that thereby the Rea∣der may fully vnderstand, in what manner the tempo∣rall power is subiect to the spirituall, and how strong or weake a proofe is the subiection or subordination of these two powers, which is by M^r. Fitzherbert sup∣posed to be so inuinsible a ground, to conclude from thence, that the Pope, as Pope, hath power, in order to spirituall good, to dispose of all temporalls, to depose temporall Princes, and to punish by way of coercion with all kinde of temporall punishments.

Notes

• d 1.1

  In Regula, peccatū. 2. part. Relect. §. 9. num. 7.
• e 1.2

  Lib. 5. de Rom. Pont. a cap. 2.
• f 1.3

  Part. 1. per totum.