BEfore he retort the obiection, or be too busie with B. Iewels 600 yeares, and M. Whites 800, I would haue him to be better aduised what they obiect. For tou∣ching the Fathers of those times, three things will be gran∣ted him. First, that diuers maine articles of the now Romish faith, which we reiect, are mentioned most amply and fre∣quently in their writings. For example, the Popes PRIMA∣CIE, and being vniuersall Bishop aboue all other Bishops, is mentioned by Gregorie himselfe a Pope in the first age, and a called a proud, pompaticall, prophane, sacrilegious, Anti∣christian and diuellish title; and the man that should assume it, a follower of the diuel, and the forerunner of Antichrist.b FASTING Page  410 by distinction of meates and daies: c Images: d Perfection of our workes without sinne, and abilitie to keepe the law: e Womens baptizing: f the worship of Angels: g the wor∣shipping of the Crosse: h the worshipping of the virgin Ma∣rie: i the Images of the Trinitie: k the obscuritie and insuffi∣ciencie of the Scripture: l the necessitie of single life in the Cleargie: and many other points defended by our aduersa∣ries, are mentioned and named in the Fathers: but it is to shew that they were holden by hereticks, and to confute them. This first grant, I returne my aduersary for a fauour, because he hath replied without railing in this Chapter: and I do it in the name of all Protestants, that hereafter he may not say, but they are tractable, and wil yeeld much of his Romish re∣ligion to be, if not defended, yet mentioned in the writings of the Fathers. Secondly, that some ceremonies and doctrines also holden at this day by the Church of Rome, which we re∣fuse, were held by some particular ancient Fathers, and pra∣ctised in the Church of those times, though *doubtfully, vncer∣tainly, and without vniuersalitie and vniformitie, and (which is chiefly to be obserued by him that wil see the truth) otherwise and to other intents, then the Church of Rome now holds thē; the reason whereof is manifest. For the Apostle m sayes, the mysterie of iniquitie began to work in his time. And n Hegesip∣pus, that liued immediatly after the Apostles, The Church continued a virgin vndefiled as long as the Apostles liued, but when that generation was passed, the conspiracy of wicked heresie, through the seducement of those which taught otherwise, tooke beginning. And o Isidorus Pelusiota, that liued in the fourth age: The Church is like a woman fallen from her ancient state, and hauing Page  411 nothing but the signes of it; bereaued of her goods through their naughtinesse that held the administration. Thus some particular ceremonies and doctrines began to be vsed, and got increase with vsing: as Prayer for the dead, Purgatorie, Necessitie of Baptisme for the saluation of infants; and not many more doctrines agreeing with the Church of Rome; which yet were vsed and holden, as I said, vncertainly, and to other purposes then now they are: for it cannot be shewed, that they were the resolued doctrine of the Church vniuersally embraced. The most that our aduersaries can shew in the writings of antiquitie, being some part of their ceremonies, as Tapers, Crosses, Vigils, Oile, Spittle, Commemorations of the dead, and such like: wherein also they haue altered, or forsaken many things as well as we: as they haue with vs a∣bandoned some points of their doctrine also, which yet p by their owne confession, they held as well as they did, that which the Church of Rome still retaines: which proues vn∣answerably, that it is no disaduantage to our side, if some few particular doctrines, thus vnsufficiently held, be found in the Fathers, which we refuse. Thirdly we grant that we hold many negatiues against our aduersaries in the Church of Rome, which are not expresly controlled or condemned by the Fathers, in that maner that we condemne them, that is to say, directly, purposely, and namely, but onely by dis∣course and consequence from those truths which they main∣taine, and those errors which they condemne in the heretiks of their times. The reason is, because in the Fathers daies, such errors, now denied and refused by vs, were not broa∣ched, but came vp since: and the Fathers could not denie or speake against that, which was not then in rerum natura. This is the true reason why we denie sundrie things, that the Fa∣thers in their time denied not.

2 These three things being granted; that which we obiect against the Repliers Catalogue, is, that the ancient Fathers in their writings, neither defend nor acknowledge the substantiall ar∣ticles of Papistry, wherein we really differ. There is q a new Creed made by the Councell of Trent, and imposed vpon all men Page  412 to beleeue: the articles whereof, are particularly expounded in the decrees and catechisme of the said Councel, and in the writings of the moderne Schoole-men and Iesuites; LET THEM SHEW IF THEY CAN, THAT THE DOCTRINE CONTAINED IN THAT CREED, AND IN THE WRITINGS OF THESE MEN, (TOVCHING THE SCRIPTVRES, SACRA∣MENTS, CHVRCH, POPE, COVNCELS, TRANSVBSTAN∣TIATION, IMAGES, INVOCATION OF SAINTS, IVSTI∣FICATION, GOOD WORKS, &c.) WAS THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHVRCH, AND PROFESSED BY THE BISHOPS OF ROME, FATHERS AND COVNCELS, EXPRESSED IN THE FIRST 800 YEARES OF THIS CATALOGVE: this is our obiection: whereto the Replier answers, that he can retort it more strongly against the Protestants, &c. But this is but wind, and so let it passe: and come we forward to the substance of his answer.