Rhemes against Rome: or, The remoouing of the gagg of the new Gospell, and rightly placing it in the mouthes of the Romists, by the Rhemists in their English translation of the Scriptures. Which counter-gagg is heere fitted by the industrious hand of Richard Bernard ...

II. Scriptures obiected to proue that Saints departed know, what is here done on earth, answered.

Luk. 16. 29. They haue Moses and the Prophets, let them heare them.

Answ. 1. It is a Parable, and a thing supposed onely, not a literall History. For after the very letter, some things in this Parable cannot be true; and therefore they cannot hence con∣clude a Doctrine, as out of a Historie. If this place will serue for Saints knowledge, from Abraham; how can the Papists looke on this Text, hindring the people from the Scripture? When first Abraham exhorts to the hearing of Moses and the Prophets. Secondly, denyeth the sending of the dead to in∣struct, as Papists haue beene instructed for their feigned Purga∣torie. Thirdly, he affirmeth that they which will not heare the Scriptures written by Moses and the Prophets, will not be∣leeue such as rise from the dead. Thus he confirmeth the autho∣ritie of the Scriptures, against wandring visions & apparitions.

Secondly, the Papists say, that before Christs Ascension, A∣braham and the rest of the Patriarks were in the place called Limbus patrum. How could Abraham know what was done in Earth, when he was in the prison? Perhaps by enquirie made of other Soules, which came thither, how the Church did, and what other meanes of instruction she had, then when hee liued on the earth?

Thirdly, if but so: what is this to proue that Saints then, and so now, doe know euery mans estate particularly, and what passeth here vpon earth?

Ioh. 5. 45. There is one that accuseth you, euen Moses.

Answ. 1. By Moses is not meant his person, but his writings a∣mong them, as the verses 46. and 47. doe declare.

Secondly, it is absurd to make the Saints in Heauen accu∣sers. Papists will haue them Intercessors, whose propertie is not to accuse in any sort, but to pray for them, which pray to them.

Thirdly, Christ saith, they trust in Moses. Will a Saint in hea∣uen bee so displeased with them, and so faile them that trust in him, that hee will goe and accuse them vnto God? Such then become miserable Patrons. Doth their Legend afford any such examples?

Fourthly, Christs saying that they trusted in Moses, must not be vnderstood of his person: but of his writings. For the Iewes did not beleeue in man. A curse, as is before deliuered, they knew to be pronounced against them, which trusted in man.

Reu. 12. 10. The accuser of the brethren is cast downe, which accused them before God day and night.

Answ. In the former, they make Moses an accuser of some; and so in that respect, a companion with the diuell heere. Is not this a wise Gagger? But how can they proue hence, that Saints in Heauen know what is done here? Because the diuell knowes what euils are here done. A goodly reason. But doe not wee know, that the Diuell is here on earth; that hee com∣passeth the earth to and fro? Hee stirres vp Dauid to number the people; hee is author of much mischiefe: hee must then know many things. And will it hence follow therefore,

that soules which remaine continually in heauen, must know what is here done in earth?

2. King. 6. 12. Elisha telleth, what words the King of Syria spake, being farre from him. So 2. King. 5. 26. Elisha saw what passed between Naaman and Gehezi, 1. Cor. 12. Saint Paul was rapt vp into the third Heauen, Act. 7. Steuen in earth, saw Christ in heauen.

Answ. 1. These places tell vs, that these things were so. Let them bring vs Scriptures which will affirme as much of the soules in heauen, heere seeing things in earth, and we will be∣leeue. But this these places proue not.

Secondly, these were extraordinarie reuelations, and giue no warrant of ordinarie knowledge. In such things, from extra∣ordinarie acts to ordinarie, is no sound arguing. For the Pro∣phets did not know all things. Elisha knew not the cause of the Shunamites comming, 2. King. 4. 27. nor Samuel, when he went to lesse his house, whom God would chuse, 1. Sam. 16. 6.

Thirdly, all these are instances of knowledge, in men on earth, of things done on earth; or of things which being on earth, they saw in heauen: but not a word, what those in hea∣uen saw here vpon earth; which is the onely point in que∣stion.

The Gagger quoteth moe places, As Mat. 19. 28. But this is nothing to purpose. And the place is meant of all, appea∣ring before Christ, at the last day, whom the Apostles shall then see.

Reu. 2. 26. 1. Here is a promise, accomplished in Christ,* 1.1 Psal. 2. in whom the Saints haue this power. See Augustine, Beda, and many other, cited by Fulke on this place, for this sense.

Secondly, this is to bee vnderstood of the Saints power ouer those out of the Church. For here they are to bee ruled with a rodde of iron, and to be broken in pieces. But the Saints depar∣ted Papists make Protectors of others, and not breakers of them to shiuers.

Act. 5. 3. This was an extraordinarie manifestation of A∣nanias his hypocrisie to Peter. If they can proue, that God doth

reueale mens actions here, to Saints in Heauen, wee yeeld.

1. Sam. 28. 14. Here is the Diuell appearing in Samuelt likenesse: what hence this Gagger will gather for Saints know∣ledge in heauen, I know not.

Notes

• * 1.1

  See D. White his last booke, p 309. 310, 311, 312. in answer to this; as also to Reu. 3. 12. 1. Cor. 13. 9. & 5. 10. not cited by the Gagger.