A detection of sundrie foule errours, lies, sclaunders, corruptions, and other false dealinges, touching doctrine, and other matters vttered and practized by M.Iewel, in a booke lately by him set foorth entituled, a defence of the apologie. &c. By Thomas Harding doctor of diuinitie.

Of the Canonical Scriptures, the Worde of God, Traditions, &c. The second Chapter.

Ievvel. Pag. 193.

* 1.1Touching the booke of the Machabees vve saie nothing, but that vve finde in S. Hierome, S. Augustine, and they holy fathers. S. Hierom saith, the Church receiueth them not emong the Canonical allovved scriptures.

Harding.

* 1.2S. Hierome speaketh of such Canonical Scriptures of the olde Testament, as the very Iewes allowed for Canonical. Such in deede the bookes of the Macha∣bees are not. But why haue you not alleged S. Augu∣stines wordes, as wel as S. Hieromes? Certainely bicause they condemne you. For if yee said al that of the bookes of the Machabees, which S. Augustine saith, you would allowe them for Canonical Scriptures amonge faithful Christians.* 1.3 He saith Machabaeorum libros non Iudaei, sed Ecclesia pro Canonicis habet. As for the bookes of the Ma∣chabees, not the Iewes, but the Church accōpteth them for Canonical. Hereunto I mai•• adde: but M. Iewel, and his Companions, accompte not the bookes of the Ma∣chabees for Canonical 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the••••in they are of the Iewes Synagog, and not of the Church of Christ. Now see good Reader▪ 〈…〉〈…〉 be made, when he said as thou findest noted in the m••rge•• of his booke, Pag. 191. that he would denie no more, then S. Austine, S. Hierom and other Fathers haue ••enied. If you say, ye deny not the bookes of the Machabees▪ 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••eproue you praying for the dead, which is so suffici••••••y proued by those bookes? Soothly if you allow the one, you must allow the other.

Ievvel. Pag. 193.

* 1.4Eusebius saith, S. Iames Epistle vvas vvritten by some other, and not by S. Iames, VVe must vnderstand (saith Eusebius) that it is a bastard epistle.

Harding.

You haue abused Eusebius. For he leaueth not there, but goeth forward, shewing, what he ment by his word,* 1.5 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, whiche you turne, is a bastard. But Ruffinus more ciuilly translated it, à nōnullis non recipitur, The epi∣stle is not receiued of some men. And Eusebius him selfe addeth: Nos tamē scinius etiā istas cū caeteris publicè apleris{que} fuisse Ecclesiis receptas. Yet we know that S. Iames, and S. Iudes Epistles with the rest, haue ben publikely receiued of most Churches, wherby we learne that Eusebius meāt by the worde, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, asmuch to say, as it is accompted of some men, not to be S. Iames owne. Touching his owne iudgement, he sheweth him selfe to be of the opi∣nion, that it is S. Iames epistle. Of some, he cōfesseth by those wordes, that it was doubted of. Therfore you haue reported Eusebius vntruly, making him to pronounce negatiuely of the epistle, which directly he hath not don.

Iewel.

S. Hierome saith: It is said, that the Epistle of S. Iames, vvas set forth by some other man vnder his name.* 1.6

Harding.

I graunte. But S. Hierom had said before those wordes, which you allege, Vnam tantum scripsit Epistolam, quae de septem Catholicis est. He wrote onely one epistle, which is one of the seuen Canonical Epistles.* 1.7 Againe after the wordes by you alleged, it followeth, that the said epistle in processe of time hath obteined authoritie.

Ievvel 194.

VVe (Lutherans and Zuinglians) agree throughly together in the vvhole substance of the Religion of Christe.

Harding.

I perceiue the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud,

is no substantial point with you: and yet he that recei∣ueth it vnworthily,* 1.8 receiueth his damnation. And he can not receiue it worthily, who beleeueth amisse of it. But either the Lutherans, or the Zuinglians, or bothe, beleeue amisse thereof, bicause in that behalfe they ••eache cleane contrary doctrine. Therefore either both, as the truth is, or one of those two sectes, as them selues must confesse, receiueth alwaies vnworthily: and con∣sequently they must confesse, that one of the two sectes is vtterly damned, without any hope of saluation. And certainely the Zuinglians, as also the Caluinistes are the worse, bicause they beleeue. Goddes word lesse in some degree, then Luther taught; and go further from the li∣teral sense of his Gospel,* 1.9 and from the beleefe of the Church, which is the piller of truthe.

Iewel. 194.

The Church is not God, nor is able of her selfe to make, or alter any article of the faith.

Harding.

* 1.10But she is the spouse of God, and to her he hath pro∣mised both his wordes, and his spirite, to remaine with her for euer. And therefore she is the chiefe witnes of al the articles of the faith. Wherefore seing you hear•• not her witnesse, you ought to be vnto vs, as an Hea∣then,* 1.11 and a Publican.

Iewel.

* 1.12Esaie saith, to the lavv rather, and to the testimonie. If they ansvver not according to this vvorde, they shal haue no Morning light.

Harding.

* 1.13This lawe is written also in our hartes, as Ieremie, and S. Paul doo witnesse. And the successours of the Apostles

geue also a testimonie of Christe no lesse,* 1.14 then Christe said the Apostles should doo. Therefore the lawe and te∣stimonie, whereunto Esaie calleth, is as wel that, which is written in faithful mennes hartes, and which is witnes∣sed in the Church, as that which is written in the olde, and new Testament.

Iewel. Pag. 194.

M. Harding saith further, If quietnesse of Conscience comme of the vvorde of God onely, then had Abel no more quietnesse of conscience then vvicked restlesse Cain. &c. VVho vvould thinke, that M. Harding bearing suche a countenance of Diuinitie, vvould thus goe about to deceiue him false vvith a pointe of Sophistrie?

Harding.

Who would thinke, that M. Iewel being pressed with a point, whereunto he is not hable to make answere, would not thus go about to deceiue his vnlearned Rea∣der with a point of Sophistrie? I praie thee reader take the paines to peruse, what the Apologie saith, what I haue said in my Cōfutation, and what M. Iewel bringeth in the Defence, touching this matter. I desire no more, but that thou read it, and then iudge, as thou seest cause.

It is an easy matter for M. Iewel, when he hath made me to speake, what he listeth, to frame an answere accor∣dingly. But I must alwaies warne the reader, not to be∣leue M. Iewel, when so euer he reporteth either my wordes, or any other mannes,* 1.15 but to repaire to the Ori∣ginal. Fot seldom is he founde cleere of the crime of fal∣sifying. And here he entwiteth me of Sophistrie, wher∣as in deede he vseth the grossest sleight of Sophistrie him selfe. He conueigheth him selfe from the Cano∣nical Scriptures, to Goddes worde. Now I spake of the

Scriptures, and he answereth of Goddes worde.

* 1.16Whereas it is said in the Apologie, that onely in the Ca∣nonical Scriptures of the olde, and new Testament mannes harte can haue setled reste: Against this I bring the exam∣ple of Abel, Noe, Abraham, Isaac and Iacob, and of those holy menne, that liued before the time of Ezdras, when the Scriptures were loste: and here I demaund whether their hartes neuer founde setled reste. For if reste be founde onely in the Scriptures, how could they haue reste, when no booke, nor parte of the Scriptures was written? If it be true, as the cōtrarie can not be proued, that Moyses was the first, that euer wrote any parte of the Scriptures, shal we iudge, that al the holy Patriarches, that were before that time, had no setled reste in their hartes?* 1.17 If this be true, then (say I) had good Abel no better reste in his harte, then wicked restlesse Cain. As I said in my Confutation, so, for ought that M. Iewel is hable to bring in his Defence, I saie here againe, what foolish, and absurde Doctrine is this?

Now how dooth M. Iewel defende this Doctrine of his Apologie? What is his answere? I wish no more, but that it be read, and cōferred with my Cōfutation: here to write out al againe, it were too long. He slincketh awaie from his own wordes, and by change of wordes, maketh of it a new question. M. Harding (saith he) saith further, If quietnes of cōscience, come of the word of God only, then had Abel no more quietnes of cōscience, then wicked rest lesse Cain.

You belie M. Harding, as your custome is: he saith not so. Let the booke be trial betwen vs bothe. The question is not, whether mannes harte findeth his setled reste on∣ly in Goddes worde: (the quietnesse of the conscience

was not spoken of) but whether that reste you spake of in the Apologie, be found only in the Scriptures. In your Apologie ye said, yea, in my Confutation I saie nay. And now in your Defence, your selfe also saie Nay:* 1.18 and so ye destroie, what ye builded before, and therby proue your selfe a preuaricatour asmuch to say, a false hartlot.

For in that now ye cōueigh the matter from the Cano∣nical Scriptures of the old and new Testamēt, vnto Gods word, what is this, but a secrete recantatiō of your former false tale? If your said former tale were true, and might be mainteined, why do you so shifte your handes of it? are you a shamed to be accoumpted a Recantour, and yet re∣cante in deede? Who seeth not great diuersitie betwen Gods word, and the written Scriptures? These be more special, that is more general. By skipping from the writtē Scriptures, to Gods worde, you thought to set your selfe at h••••re libertie. And yet hauing taken your libertie, as it were by breaking loose out of your chaine, neuer so much, as you seme to geue ouer your former saying, and to recant: so you proue not your later saying. You allege S. Chrysostome saying,* 1.19 that God from the beginning spake 〈…〉〈…〉 m••n by him selfe: S. Paule, that God in olde times spake m••ny waies, and in sundrie sortes vnto the Fathers: S. Hie∣rome, that the holy Scriptures be euerlasting, though the w••••ld shal haue an ende, and that the thing, which is promi∣sed by the holy Scriptures, shal last for euer, though the paper, parchement, and leaues of bookes shalbe abolished. Againe you allege S. Chrysostome, saying,* 1.20 that S. Paule calleth Preaching not written, the Gospel. But to what purpose al this? How proueth this, either, that you auouched in your Apologie touching the setled rest of mannes harte,

to be founde only in the Canonical Scriptures of the old; and new testament, or, which now you teache, hauing reuoked your former doctrine, that it is founde onely in Goddes worde?

Verely by ought that you haue said yet, either in your Apologie, or in your Defence, you haue neither shewed, where mannes harte shal finde the reste you spake of, nor where we shal finde you: so like a hunted foxe you starte, from one thing to an other, as it were, from bushe to bushe, from hole to hole. So must they doo, who ser∣uing the Maister that you serue, take vpon them to im∣pugne the Catholique Doctrine, and to defende Vn∣truthe.

Iewel.

* 1.21God him selfe in his ovvne person and presently spake vnto Abel. &c.

Harding.

That would I confesse: But he spake not to him by paper and incke. And yet we are not now in worse case then the old fathers were. And the word of God in their hartes (whereof they could not doubte) was euer much more cleere and plaine, then that, which is in our bookes, whereof some men doubt many times. Therefore we also in Christes Church haue as wel Gods word in our hartes, as in our bookes, whence also (to wit, out of our hartes) we may resolue the doubtes, which arise vpō our bookes. But let vs see this matter ripte vp more deeply.

Iewel. Pag. 194.

VVe speake not so precisely and nicely of Gods vvord vvritten in paper, for so it is a corruptible creature, and shal perish.

Harding.

Why then bind you vs in al cases to the written word,

and wil haue nothing to be beleued, or done, that is not written?

Iewel. Pag. 195.

Chrysostom saith, Preaching not writtē Paul calleth the Gospel.* 1.22

Harding.

But we only haue preaching not written,* 1.23 for you wil haue nothing preached, which is not also written. There∣fore we only haue the whole Gospel, and you haue but one peece thereof.

Iewel. Pag. 195.

S. Antonie the Eremite vvas notably learned,* 1.24 and perfite in the scri∣ptures.

Harding.

But without knowledge of letters, as with S. Augu∣stine your selfe must confesse. This proueth that by the Scriptures the sense, and meaning is vnderstanded, and not the bare letter. Now the meaning of the Scriptures, not only tolerateth, but conuinceth the vnbloudy Sacri∣fice of Christes body, Transubstantiation, praiers to the Saintes, and praiers for the dead, as diuers learned men haue declared at large.

Iewel.

The force and substance bothe of prayer, and of meditation dependeth of reading.* 1.25

Harding.

Not only of reading. For then vnlearned persons should neither praie, nor meditate, nor haue Gods word. Marke stil, we denie not the written word: but we say besides it, there are vnwritten Verities,* 1.26 which thing you im∣pudently denie.

Iewel. Pag. 195.

S. Basil reckeneth Traditions to be equal vvith the vvorde of God, but

that he vvrote those vvordes rather of zeale, then of iudgement it〈…〉〈…〉 appeare, bicause the traditions he nameth, are forgotten euen in the Churche of Rome, as not to kneele in the Churche vpon the sonne∣daie.

Harding.

If bicause some Traditions be altered,* 1.27 or abolished, they were not Gods word, then the precepte of absteining from strangled meates,* 1.28 is not Gods word, bicause it is now abolished. But you misse M. Iewel. What soeuer God commaundeth but for a time, it is his worde: And whatsoeuer his ministers do commaunde, as profitable to the Church for the present tyme, it is Gods word, as him selfe said;* 1.29 He that heareth you heareth me. He that despiseth you despiseth me. How be it S. Basil speaketh not altoge∣ther as you reporte. He maketh not al Traditions equal with Gods worde, simply, and in al respectes: he speaketh of three thinges, of Doctrines written, and doctrines vn∣writte, and of customes, for which we haue no scripture. Of the vnwritten doctrines it is, that he speaketh, not of customes, that they haue equal force with the written doctrines, ad pietatem, to traine vs to godlinesse. As tou∣ching vnwritten customes, many thinke your example false. For we were neuer forbidden to kneele at al vpon the Sonnedaie, but at our Lordes prayer, whiles it is said at Masse time, as some interprete it. At which time al the Popes Chappel to this daie vseth to stand vp, and not to kneele.

Iewel. Pag. 195.

The reste of S. Basiles traditions stand in hallovving of vvater, and blessing of oile: &c.

Harding.

Those Traditions, which belong to Sacramentes, as that of the blessing of the oile doth, maie neuer be chan∣ged. Those that are mere ceremonial, maie be abrogated by custom, as the thrife dipping of the childe, or of any o∣ther that is to be baptized, and such others the like, which neither S. Basile, nor we euer made equal with Goddes expresse worde.

Iewel. Pag. 196.

S. Paule saying, holde the Traditions which yee haue receiued,* 1.30 either by epistle, or by worde calleth them traditions, although thei vvere conteined in his epistles and deliuered to them by vvriting.

Harding.

And also, though they were not deliuered by writing. You leaue out halfe. For he saith by writing, or per sermo∣nem, that is to saie, by speache. The writing contemed wordes: ergo, the speache, which differeth from writing, were wordes without writing.

Iewel. Pag. 196.

VVhereas S. Paule vvil haue his ovvne thinges to be kepte,* 1.31 he vvil haue no straunge thinges thereto to be added.

Harding.

We adde no strange thinges, but beleeue, that S. Paule preached, and deliuered the Sacrifice of the Masse vnto the faithful people so plainly in practise, and wordes, that the writing was not hable to shew his minde so fully in that behalfe. And by Tradition we haue as wel that, which he taught by practise, as that, which he preached, whether he wrote it, or no.

Iewel. Pag. 197.

S. Paule by the vvord, Traditions, meant not Ceremonies, or certaine

secrete vnknovven Verities,* 1.32 but the substance of the Gospel I haue deli∣uered vnto you that Christ died for our sinnes, saieth he.

Harding.

* 1.33He meant not only Ceremonies, I graunt. And as for secrete vnknowen verities, we haue no suche, excepte you are so mad, as to cal praying for the dead a secrete vnknowen veritie, which hath euen benne knowen to al menne, yea wemen, and children in the Church of God. And that custome of praying for the dead, S. Paule did teach, as wel as al other the Apostles, as Tradition telleth vs,* 1.34 witnessed also by S. Chrysostom. So that as the whole Gospel commeth vnto vs by Tradition, so doth Masse, Dirige, Holy water, Lenten fast, and others.

Iewel. Pag. 197.

* 1.35S. Augustine findeth is not appointed by Christ, or the Apostles, vvhat daies vve ought to fast.

Harding.

* 1.36You kepe your kinde, in alleging thinges out of their kinde. S. Augustine there speaketh of that, which is to be founde in the writinges of the Apostles. For thus it went before, In Apostolicis literis, in the Apostolike writinges. There he findeth not the Lenten fast. But he findeth it in the Apostolike Traditiōs, saying in the very same epistle. In his rebus de quibus nihil cert•• statuit scriptura diuina, mos populi Dei, vel instituta maiorū prolege ••edendasunt. Looke in what thinges the holy Scripture hath determined no∣thing of certaintie, the custome of the people of God, o•• the ordinaūces of the Forfathers,* 1.37 are to be kept as a lawe.

Marke that the custom of Gods, people must be ••ol∣den for a law: prolege, for a law M. Iewel. It is the epistle alleged by you, that saith, Traditiōs, and customes must be

kept for a law. And his owne wordes another where are Vt quadraginta illi dies ante Pascha obseruetur,* 1.38 Ecclesiae con∣suetudo roborauit. That the fortie daies before Easter should be kepte, the custome of the Church hath confir∣med, and strengthened it. And generally he saith: Quae non scripta, sed tradita custodimus, quae quidem toto terra∣rum orbe obseruantur, dantur intelligi, vel ab ipsis Aposto∣lis, vel plenarijs Concilijs commendata, atque statuta retine∣ri. Looke what thinges we kepe, not being written, but deliuered by tradition, which are obserued al the worlde ouer, thereof intelligence is geuen vs, that they be kepte in vre, as thinges cōmended vnto vs, and ordeined either by the Apostles them selues, or by the General Coun∣celles.

Nowe seing the Faste of the fortie dayes was, and is generally kepte in the Churche, and yet not firste commaunded by any general Councel: it remaineth ac∣cording to S. Augustines rule, that it was instituted of the Apostles. And S. Hierome by name saith, it came from the Apostles. In fidei regula discrepamus. We differ in the rule of faith from the Montanistes. For they denie three persons confounding them into one. They accompt the second Marriages as il, as Aduoutrie, and make three Lenten fastes. Nos vnam Quadragesimam secundùm traditionem Apostolorum toto anno, tempore nobis congruo ieiunamus: We faste at a time conuenient one Lent, in the whole yere, according to the Traditions of the Apostles.

Iewel. 199.

M. Harding saith, Persona, Ingenitus, Homousion, are not founde in the scriptures, but the sense and meaning is found there.

Harding.

So is the sense, and meaning of Masse, of transubstanti∣ation, and of praying to Saintes founde there.

Iewel. Pag. 200.

Gennadius saith, the perpetual Virginitie of our Ladie is proued suf∣ficiently by scriptures.* 1.39

Harding.

* 1.40This is a lowde lie. Trie it out who wil, Gennadius saith not so but only, that S. Hieromes booke, which he wrote against Heluidius, affirming that our Ladie bare children, after she had borne Christ, was sufficiently four∣nished with* 1.41 testimonies of the Scriptures. For al∣though it be not expressely written, that she was a per∣petual Virgin, yet the faith thereof is most agreable to the Scriptures, and most certaine in Tradition. But were not the Tradition so strong, the Scriptures certainely might be doubtful ynough in that behalfe.

Iewel. Pag. 200.

Of God and his vvord they vvould euermore haue vs stand in doubt: but of the Pope, and his vvord, they say, in any vvise vve maie not doubt.

Harding.

Our doubte is not whether Gods word ought to be beleeued, no man doubteth thereof: But onely what is the meaning thereof. And then besides to vnderstand it the better, we ioine vniuersal tradition with it, and in al further doubtes we say, the Pope, or the General Coun∣cel is the highest, and laste iudge in earth to declare vnto vs the meaning of Gods worde. Otherwise we should neuer haue an end of Controuersies, as we see by expe∣rience betwen the Lutherans, and Zuinglians.

Ievvel. Pag. 200. & 201.

Hovv knovv you saith M. Harding, that the scriptures, be the scriptures?

&c. The Church of God had the spirit of vvisedom, vvhereby to discerne the true scriptures from the false. So saith S.a 1.42 Ambrose. S.b 1.43 Augustin. andc 1.44 Eusebius. Yet vvil it not folovv that the Church is aboue the scriptures.

Harding.

If the Church of God haue the spirite of wisedome, to discerne the true scriptures from the false, shal it not also haue the same wisedom of God, to expound the ho∣ly Scriptures, and also to determine any question arising thereon? Neither doo we say, that the Church is aboue the Scriptures in authoritie: but that it is to vs better knowen, and as a more liuely, so a more plaine teacher, then the Scriptures be.

For if we aske the Scriptures any question,* 1.45 be it neuer so hard, as Clemens Alexandrinus hath wel noted: They wil answer vs no more, then it is written. But if any man aske the Church neuer so manie questions, if the know∣ledge be behooful for mannes soule health, it wil euer make him to eche question an answer, and so wil dimisse him with a ful satisfaction touching al his doubtes.* 1.46 For this cause the Church is called the piller of truth: And as you confesse, that the Church hath shewed vs, which be the true Scriptures: so must you likewise graunte, that the Church hath the spirite of God, to shew vs the truth in al behooful cases, yea euen in those, which be not ex∣pressely written. For where is it written expressely, that the church of God should haue the spirit of God, for this ende to shew vs the true Scriptures, to approue the true Scriptures, and to condemne the false forgeries?* 1.47 Christe said generally of al matters, He that heareth you, heareth me: Item, he that heareth not the Church, let him be to thee, as an Heathen, and a Publican.

Notes

• * 1.1

  In prooem. in prouer. Salomon.
• * 1.2

  The bookes of the Ma∣chabees canonical emonge the faith∣ful.
• * 1.3

  August. de De Ciui∣tat. Dei, lib. 18. ca. ••6.
• * 1.4

  S. Iames epistle.
• * 1.5

  li. 2. c. 23. li. 2. c. 23.
• * 1.6

  Hiero. i•• catalog••.
• * 1.7

  Hiero. i•• catalog•• Ecclesi. script.
• * 1.8

  1. Cor. 11.
• * 1.9

  1. Timo. 3.
• * 1.10

  Esai. 59. Ioan. 14.
• * 1.11

  Matt. 18.
• * 1.12

  Isai. 8.
• * 1.13

  Iere. 31. Hebre. 8.
• * 1.14

  Ioan. 15.
• * 1.15

  M. Ievv. shifteth him selfe from Scri¦pture, to Goddes vvorde.
• * 1.16

  Defence. pag 191.
• * 1.17

  Cōfut fol. 82. b.
• * 1.18

  Galat. 2.
• * 1.19

  In Gen. Ho. 2. Heb. 1. in Iob. 27.
• * 1.20

  2. Cor. hom. 18.
• * 1.21

  Ibidem.
• * 1.22

  Homil. 18. in 2. Cor.
• * 1.23

  Preaching not vvrit∣ten.
• * 1.24

  Aug. de Doctrinae Christ. li. 1. in prolo∣go.
• * 1.25

  Aug. de scalis pa∣radisi .c. 11
• * 1.26

  Basil. de Spiritu Sancto. cap. 27.
• * 1.27

  Traditiōs.
• * 1.28

  Actor. 15.
• * 1.29

  Luke. 10.
• * 1.30

  2. Thess. 2.
• * 1.31

  Hieron. in 2. Thes. 2.
• * 1.32

  ••. Cor. 15.
• * 1.33

  M. Ievvels Secret vn¦knovven verities.
• * 1.34

  Homil. 69. Ad populū Antiochē.
• * 1.35

  Epist. ••6.
• * 1.36

  Lenten fast is not founde in the Apo∣stles vvri¦tinges, but in the Aposto∣like Tra∣ditions. Aug. in e∣pist. 86.
• * 1.37

  Custom is a lavve.
• * 1.38

  Augustin. epist. 118.
• * 1.39

  In catalo∣go.
• * 1.40

  Gennadi∣in catal. in Heluid.
• * 1.41

  Docu∣mentes
• a 1.42

  In pro∣oemi. in Luc.
• b 1.43

  cōt. Fau lib. 22.
• c 1.44

  80. li. 6. ca. 2.
• * 1.45

  Clemēs Alexand. li. strō. 1
• * 1.46

  1. Tim. 3.
• * 1.47

  Luc. 10. Mat. 18.