A detection of sundrie foule errours, lies, sclaunders, corruptions, and other false dealinges, touching doctrine, and other matters vttered and practized by M.Iewel, in a booke lately by him set foorth entituled, a defence of the apologie. &c. By Thomas Harding doctor of diuinitie.

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Title
A detection of sundrie foule errours, lies, sclaunders, corruptions, and other false dealinges, touching doctrine, and other matters vttered and practized by M.Iewel, in a booke lately by him set foorth entituled, a defence of the apologie. &c. By Thomas Harding doctor of diuinitie.
Author
Harding, Thomas, 1516-1572.
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Lovanii :: Apud Ioannem Foulerum,
Anno 1568.
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Subject terms
Jewel, John, 1522-1571. -- Defence of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande.
Catholic Church -- Apologetic works.
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http://name.umdl.umich.edu/A02637.0001.001
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"A detection of sundrie foule errours, lies, sclaunders, corruptions, and other false dealinges, touching doctrine, and other matters vttered and practized by M.Iewel, in a booke lately by him set foorth entituled, a defence of the apologie. &c. By Thomas Harding doctor of diuinitie." In the digital collection Early English Books Online 2. https://name.umdl.umich.edu/A02637.0001.001. University of Michigan Library Digital Collections. Accessed June 15, 2024.

Pages

The Apologie. Cap. 3. Diuis. 2. Pag. 98.

Yet notvvithstanding, vvee say, that there neither is, nor can be any one man, vvhiche may haue the vvhole superioritie in this Vniuersal

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state: for that Christe is euer presente to assiste his Churche, and nee∣deth not any man, to supplie his roome, as his onely heire to al his Sub∣stance: and that there can be no one mortal creature, vvhiche is hable to comprehende, or conceiue in his minde the vniuersal Churche, that is to vvit, al the partes of the vvorlde: muche lesse hable rightly, and duely to put them in Order, and to Gouerne them.

Iewel. Pag. 98.

M. Hardinges ansvvere hereto is too long, and tedious.

Harding.

I dare wel saie, it is too tedious to you, and glad would you be to be rid of it, if you wist whiche waie. Acknowlege the truthe M. Iewel, returne from your errour, leaue of scoffing, suppresse singularitie, delie not in the vaine praises, that your ignorant fauourers geue you, feare God, thinke, you can not continue in in this Brauerie alwaies: then shal you finde liking in my answere, and thinke it nothing to tedious. Cer∣taine it is, the mater is not so sclenderly to be answered.

Iewel. Pag. 98.

VVhere vve saie, no one mortal man is hable to vvealde the burthen of the vvhole Churche of God, M. Harding ansvvereth, vvhere any thing is in deed, there vvhether it maie be, or not, to discusse it is needelesse. Therefore vvhether any one man can be superiour, and Chiefe ouer the vvhole Church, vve leaue to speake: that so it is, thus vve prooue. Euery parishe hath his seueral vicare or person, and euerie Dioces his ovvne Bisshppe, Ergo, vvhat reason is it, there be one Chiefe Gouernour of the vvhole Christen people? &c. His firste reason concludeth very vveakely: Euerie Parishe is Gouerned by one Vicare or Personne: and euerie Diocese is gouerned by one seueral Bishop: Ergo, there is one vniuersal Gouernour ouer the vvhole Chur∣che of Christe. Here is neither order in reason, nor sequele in nature.

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Therefore of any man vvould denie the argument, M. Harding vvere ••••∣uer hable to make it good.

Harding. The iustification of this Argument.

* 1.1Yeas forsooth, the Argument may be proued very wel by this axioma, or dignitie in nature, vpon the which the Argument is grounded. That the whole ought to be gouerned by one general Head, whose seueral partes can not be gouerned, without seueral Heades. If your leisure serue you, you may nowe traine the Argument, that I was neuer hable to make good, as you say, for lacke of order in reason, and sequele in nature (if ye altogether haue not forgotten your Logique, whereof you set vs forth so often crakes) into the very forme of a good, and perfite Syllogisme. If your courage then serue you to denie the Argument, you shal but disgrace your selfe in denying the groundes of that arte, wherein you haue placed a great parte of your glorie: and put your selfe to paine, to make vs some newe Logique of your owne, that menne may trust too. Searche dili∣gently the cause without scoffing, and wrangling, why the seueral partes of the vniuersal Churche, Parishes, Dioceses, prouinces, are not hable to be kepte in any good order without seueral heades: the selfe cause shal infourme you, that the vniuersal Churche may muche lesse be kepte in order without one general Head. Ren∣der what causes you can M. Iewel, you shal neuer be hable to auoide it before any learned companie, but that the one shal folowe of the selfe same causes, as wel as the other.

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Whereas you runne to disprooue myne argument, by making the like of euerie kingdome ruled by one Prince, inferring, Ergo, there ought to be one vniuersal Prince, to rule ouer the whole worlde: I see no such ab∣surditie in the conclusion of this Argument (the seueral rightes of Princes reserued vntouched) but that if you should talke with Aristotle that great Philosopher, you should see good cause to graunt it. If there were but one good Monarke in the whole worlde, would there not be fewer broilles, and warres in the worlde, then nowe we feele? Perhappes, when the matter is wel weighed, it may seeme, the worlde was neuer in better state, then when it was gouerned by one good Empe∣rour. Let a iuste Viewe be taken of Constantines time the Great. Yet it must be confessed, there is great diffe∣rence betwixt the Ciuile gouernemēt of Princes (who maie be permitted to rule their seueral Dominions with∣out one general Head, bicause they haue to do but with thinges of the worlde, as with earthly goodes, landes, and such other thinges, which may receiue diuers kindes of rule, without danger of Soules) and the Ecclesiastical gouernment, whose chiefe respect is to keepe vnitie of Faith in the bonde of peace, which may not receiue any alteration, without great danger to our Saluation. There∣fore there is greater cause to haue one general Head, or Supreme gouernour (without whom this vnitie can not be kepte any long time,* 1.2 as S. Hierome witnesseth) to rule the whole Churche in matters of Saluation, then to haue one Head to rule ouer the whole worlde in wordely matters.

To your other scorneful Argument of one general

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Shepehearde to be hadde ouer al the flockes of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 throughout the whole world, I wil frame answere, when you can prooue, that God hath as great care to bring al the shepe in the worlde to the selfe same glorie of life e∣uerlasting, as he hath to bring menne: or that he hath ap∣pointed them any one general ende, the whiche they can not atteine without the hauing of one general shepe∣herd to gouerne the whole kinde. But S. Paule put∣teth al suche fonde reasons to silence by this question, where he asketh,* 1.3 Nunquid de bobus cura est Deo? Hath God any such special care of kine and Oxen, as he hath of menne? Put vp such shepeherdes pipes for shame M. Iewel, and leaue to piper vs vp such trifles. If you minde thus to continue, euery ignorant Reader at length shal espie, what litle good stuffe ye vtter.

I made not these reasons, for that menne should take them for very precise Demonstrations, or for that euery one of them alone had ful force to conclude, as though the whole weight of the matter laie in any one of them: But for that natural reason should partely declare to the ignorant, who are not hable to conceiue deeper Ar∣gumentes, that the Order, whiche our Sauiour leafte in his Churche, the same to be ruled by one general Head, doth so sensibly sticke in euery mannes conceite, that vnderstandeth the force of any good natural reason, that you, or any of your felowes with any heapes of impertinent sentences of al sortes of Writers (with whiche you fournish vs out bookes of great bulke) shal neuer be hable to prooue the contrarie. Disorder not 〈◊〉〈◊〉 reasons M. Iewel, take them as my selfe haue sette 〈…〉〈…〉 marke what force they are of, when they be

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linked in one. Then ouerthrowe them if you can. I am assured you can not.

The other three reasons, to the which you say, ye an∣swered in your Replie, are so by M. Stapleton returned vpon you againe, and your whole answere reprooued, that the worlde now seeth, what smal worship ye haue wonne thereby. I would aduise you to beginne againe, and labour for a more sufficient answere, elles you may be sure, that menne wel geue you ouer for one that pro∣miseth much, and perfourmeth nothing.

Iewel. Pag. 100.

I graunt, Dissension, and quarelles be the sooner ended, vvhen al thin∣ges be put ouer to one man, so that the same man maie liue for euer, and stil continue in one minde, and neuer alter.

Harding. M. Iewel alloweth no one man to be ruler, except he may liue for euer, and continue in one minde, which is fonde.

Liue for euer? what a blinde answere is this?* 1.4 I praie you Sir, did Moyses, when he had the gouernement of the people of Israel, make an ende of no Dissensions, and quarelles emong them? I weene you wil say, yeas. And yet he liued not emonge them for euer pardy. Did not Iosue so? Did not Samuel? Did not Dauid? Did not Salomon, and others? Yet I trowe, you wil not say, they liued for euer. Doth not euery Prince dai∣lie within his owne Realme so? Euery Bisshop with∣in his owne Diocese? the Archebishop within his owne Prouince? And yet ye knowe, they liue not for euer.

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Heard euer any man a fonder answere made then this? The first foure General Councelles ended diuers mat∣ters of contention, and yet they that were there, liued not for euer. For very shame cal backe this vnsauery answere againe, or at least put it out of your booke at your nexte Impression, if the first finde good vtterance, and lye not vpon you handes.

Iewel. Ibidem.

And stil continevv in one minde, and neuer alter.

Harding.

That is the very cause perhappes, why Archehere∣tiques can make an ende of no Dissension, bicause their mindes doo daily,* 1.5 and hourely alter, as S. Paule saieth of certaine curious wemenne, that were alwaies lear∣ning, alwaies talking and babling of Scripture, and neuer drawing to any good ende, neuer atteining to the knowledge of truthe.* 1.6 You haue bounde Kinges and Princes very hard, to continew stil in one minde, and neuer to alter: so that if one haue cause to warre against the other, after warre once entred, they may neuer intreate of peace. They muste continew stil in one minde, and neuer alter. They muste keepe so precise, and so holesome a diet, that they maie liue for euer. If they make any statute that is good and neces∣sarie to be kepte for some one time, perhappes for the space of v. or vj. yeres afterwarde, when the Con∣tinuance of suche statutes shal be founde to breede greate disorder, and inconuenience to the Realme:

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it shal not be lawful for them to repeale them, bicause M. Iewel hath bounde them to continew in the minde they were, and neuer to alter. For if they once alter, how so euer, and wherein so euer it be, dissensions and quarelles (saith he) can not by them be appeased and ended, and therefore good gouernment shal faile.

Iewel. Pag. 100.

But oftentimes one Pope is founde contrarie to an other.

Harding. Answere to the contrarities in certaine Popes repre∣hended by M. Iewel, and to the violating of Pope Formosus dead Carkasse. &c.

Not so ofte as one king is founde contrarie to an other.* 1.7 Read the Stories, you shal find it true. But Lorde what a doo ye make here about the Contrarieties of certaine Popes! and yet you shal neuer finde one Pope contrarie to an other in any article of our Faith, as heauy a Mai∣ster as you are vnto them. But why doo you not cal to minde, what varietie of opinions ye haue had emong your selues, fith ye brought your Gospel first into the Realme? Remember within so shorte a time, how many sortes of Communions haue benne seene, how many sectes haue risen emong your selues? How farre the Pu∣ritanes (who haue wel nigh tried out the Quintessence of your Gospel,* 1.8 and perhappes at their nexte proceding wil vtterly denie God) how farre, I saie, they are alienated, and diuided from you, and that not only for Square cap∣pes, and side gownes, but also for other matters, that in

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their time shalbe reueled. I wil saie nothing here of the Arians, Anabaptistes, Libertines, and Atheistes, who since the first planting of your Gospel, haue crepte into the realme, and now swarme in diuers places there vn∣controlled: who if they had the ful libertie ye preached, when ye first laboured to supplante the Catholiques, were wel like shortely to set you also beside the stoole.

But they (for that their time is not yet come) must doo as they maie, and be passed ouer as not seene, that al the charitable blowes of your fyrie Gospel might light vpon the Catholiques headdes.

Your manner alwaies is in the allegation of histories, as also of other thinges, to adde somwhat of your owne, as you doo in telling vs how Pope Steuen vnburied his predecessour Pope Formosus:* 1.9 where you reporte that he defaced, and mangled his naked carkasse. The historie maketh mention of no suche mangling, and defacing of his Carkasse: onely it sheweth, that the forefingers of his right hande, whiche had benne annointed, and conse∣crated, were cut of, and that the Pontifical garmentes, wherein Popes were wonte of an olde custome to be bu∣ried, were taken of from his corps. A man that had heard of defacing, and mangling a naked carkasse, would haue thought, that the carkasse had benne hewed in peeces, or otherwise spitefully mangled. Leaue, leaue that il pro∣pertie for shame M. Iewel. Adde not, diminishe not, tel stories as you finde them, and so shal you geue your Ad∣uersarie lesse aduantage against you.

It is maruaile it came not into your head, by dili∣gent searche to finde out a dissension emong the Popes, bicause some of them loued rather to eate fishe then

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fleshe, some vsed to rise sooner in the morning, some la∣ter: some were of stature higher, some lower. And least your storie should be vnrequitted, it were wel done of you to take some litle paines, to searche out, who of you was the first author of that famous lie against the Catho∣lique Bishoppes,* 1.10 that to bringe them in displeasure with the Quenes Maiestie whiche now is, reported, that they had taken awaie kinge Henrie the eightes body, whiche matter, after great bruite spred aboute the Realme, after that it came to be searched, was tried false, and forged, and the body was founde safe, where it had benne laied. But the body of king Henrie the sixth that holy man,* 1.11 was not founde in his place, but said to haue benne burnt, by certaine (I wil spare their worshippes) of Ca∣tholique religion I warrant you. There is a wiued Su∣perintendent in England, that if he be asked, can tel tidinges, how these thinges were conueied. But al thinges ye doo, are wel donne, and worthie of praise. Yet what an impudent lye was that deuised against the Catholique Bishoppes? And what an hainous deede was it, to violate the Graue, to take vp a good Kinges Body, and to burne it, or otherwise to consume it? Yet bicause they that are of your fecte did it, it must be praised, though it be donne against al good Order, Re∣ligion, and humanitie.

To be shorte, as you are not hable to defende al thin∣ges, as wel donne, that ye and your felowes haue donne: euen so we haue not taken in hande to defende the innocencie of euery Pope in al actes of his life, nor yet to take the Popes wil, and pleasure to be our staie in al doubteful cases, as you impute vnto vs.

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But the Popes aduised, and mature determination folo∣wing the aduise of his learned Doctours, assembled toge∣ther for discussion of weightie matters in general Coun∣celles (whiche is an other thing then the Popes wil and pleasure, whiche your scoffing head would haue to be our staie) we take to be a sufficient resolution of al doubt∣ful cases, that are necessarie for vs to knowe.

Iewel. Pag. 100.

Hovv be it, this, I trovve, is not the readiest vvaie to procure peace, and to mainteine vnitie in the Churche.

Harding. Vnitie is best mainteined by the gouerment of one general Head.

* 1.12If the hauing of one king, or Prince be the readiest waie to procure peace, and mainteine vnitie in worldly mat∣ters of a Realme, why should not the hauing of one gene∣ral Head, be the readiest waie to procure peace, and vni∣tie in the Churche? If that be not the waie, you leaue vs none at al. If euery man take that Religion, that liketh best his owne phantasie, as many doo in diuers partes of the worlde already: who shal cal them backe to the true Catholique Religion?

Iewel.

And therefore Gregorie saith of Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople, that claimed to him selfe this vniuersal povver, &c.

Harding.

What neede we bestowe moe wordes about this

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matter of Iohn of Constantinople?* 1.13 M. Stapleton hath answered fully vnto it. This Iohn claimed to him selfe the title of vniuersal Bishop, meaning thereby, that there was no Bishop in the worlde, but he: whiche title in deede S. Gregorie in that sense coulde not brooke, but tooke it to be arrogant, and proude. And we saie, as we haue alwaies said, that no Pope euer claimed the title of vniuersal Bishop, in that sense, that there ought none others to be Bishoppes but he. And yet S. Gregorie clai∣med the right title of the Primacie apperteining to his See, in his answere made to Mauricius the Emperour, as Platina recordeth. And S. Chrysostome,* 1.14 as we said before) doth not spare to tel al Christian menne, that to Peter was committed the Charge and Cure of the whole worlde.

Iewel.

For although al the vvorlde either vvould, or could geue eare, and cre∣dite to one man, yt vvere not that therefore alvvaies Christian vnitie. S. Augustine saith, Pride it selfe hath a certaine desire of vnitie, and of vni∣ersal povver.

Harding.

What should moue you to allege S. Augustine, De vera religione, against the vnitie of the whole Churche, obeying their vniuersal head? Did S. Augustine speake any thing of the Pope in that place? What so'euer af∣fection there be of Pride, or Singularitie in the ruler, it toucheth not others, but disgraceth his personal actes onely, I meane in respect of his owne person, not of o∣thers, who doo but their duetie in obeying what he tea∣cheth, or biddeth, being their general gouernour, or head. And in that duetie doing, what soeuer the rulers

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affection is in gouerning, they keepe Christian vnitie i Faithe,* 1.15 and Doctrine. Vpon the chaire of Moyses, the Scri∣bes and Pharisees haue sitte, al thinges what so euer they tel you, doo ye, saith Christe. If Christe bad vs to obey the Scribes, and the Pharisees; as long as they sate in Moyses chaire, although their life agreed not with their doctrines what can the Popes il affection of pride hurte the vnitie of Christian menne, who doo their duetie in obeying his lawful power?

Iewel. Pag. 100.

An other of M. Hardinges reasons is this: The Churche labouring here in earth, must resemble the Churche of the Saintes triumphing in heauen. But in heauen God onely is the gouernoure ouer the vvhole: Ther∣fore, in the Churche beneathe, the Pope likevvise must needes be gouer∣nour ouer the vvhole. Thus God must be rated to gouerne aboue, and the Pope beneath: and so as one some time saide, Diuisum imperi∣um, cum Ioue Caesar habet.

Harding.

You falsifie my wordes, and reason, my terme is not Must, but, Meete. Shewe it not to be meete: Leaue you skoffing, and come to the matter. Euery good thing is the worse, that cometh into your handes.

Iewel. Pag. 100.

This is a valiant kinde of argument. It holdeth from heauen to earth, from angelles to menne, from God to the Pope.

Harding.

Wel skoffed M. Iewel. It was not for naught, that the Prophete Dauid in the description of a blessed man, saith emong other thinges,* 1.16 that he sitteth not in the chaire of

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Mockers, by whiche worde Heretiques are signified, which in deede are very skoffers, and mockers of al good thinges. And weene you good Sir▪ that an argument maie not holde from heauen to earth? Thy wil be donne in earth as it is in heauen. Vpon these wordes, if you list,* 1.17 maie ye not frame an argument, that shal holde from heauen to earth? Now from Angelles to menne: Videte ne con∣temnatis vnum ex his pusillis: dico enim vobis,* 1.18 quia Angeli eorum in coelis semper vident faciem patris mei, qui in coe∣lu est. See ye despise not one of these litle ones: For I saie vnto you, that their Angelles in heauen doo alwaies see the face of my Father, whiche is in heauen. Out of this Scripture, if your good wil, and cunning would serue you, ye maie see an argument plainely made, from An∣gelles to menne. Likewise from God to the Pope. Pe∣tre amas me? Pasce oues meas. Peter louest thou me?* 1.19 Feede (or rule) my sheepe. If your cunning can not compasse suche Argumentes M. Iewel, that are vsed in Scriptures, from heauen to earth, from Angelles to menne, from God to the Pope: yet it were good for you to leaue skoffing at suche argumentes, as are vsed in the very Scriptures.

Iewel. Pag. 100.

But hovv knovveth M. Harding vvhat Orders of Angelles, and Ar∣changelles there be in heauen? VVhat they doo? Hovv they deale: &c.

Harding. Of Angelles, to what purpose Osee was alleged, of the Head inuisible, and visible.

Forsooth I maie easily know that,* 1.20 whiche is euident∣ly

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reueled in the Scripture: yea so euidently, that yo•••• ignorance must seeme to grosse, to aske any suche que∣stion.* 1.21 That there be orders of Angelles, it appeareth bo•••• in diuers other places, and specially by the fourth Chap∣ter of S. Matthew, where we finde that the Angells waite on Christe.* 1.22 Beholde (saith the Euangeliste) the Angelles came, and ministred vnto him. You might haue founde mention of many thousandes of Angelles, in the 12.* 1.23 Chapter to the Hebrewes. There is mention also made of diuers Orders of Angelles in the epistle to the Colossians.* 1.24 Siue throni, sine Dominationes, siue Princi∣patus, siue Potestates, omnia per ipsum, & in ipso creata sunt.* 1.25 The like is to be seene in the epistle to the Ephe∣sians. Of Archangelles we reade in the epistle to the Thessalonians, that our Lord shal come downe in the voice, and in the commaundement (or shoute) of the Archangel, and in the trompe of God. In S. Luke we reade, that there is more ioie in heauen before the Angelles for one sinner doing penaunce,* 1.26 then there is for. 99. iust menne, that neede no penaunce. In the epistle to the Hebrewes we read, that al the Angelles doo honour Christe,* 1.27 and that al An∣gelles are spirites to doo seruice, sent into seruice for them, that doo receiue the inheritance of saluation.

* 1.28S. Dionyse the Areopagite speaketh of nine Or∣ders of Angelles. The Scripture in sundry places tel∣leth vs, that the Angelles doo offer vp the praiers of the faithful before God. This we knowe of Angel∣les in heauen, that they obey one God: that they are spi∣rites so confirmed in grace, that now they can not sinne: that they are ready to doo Goddes commaundement at al times: that there are Orders emong them, as there

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shalbe emong them, whiche shalbe saued emong vs, some placed in greater glorie, then some others, as S. Paule declareth by the diuersitie of Starres,* 1.29 that are not al of one brightnesse. We knowe, that they being Spirites confirmed in grace, hauing no motions at al to doo any thing contrarie to Gods wil, neede no Pope to correct, to pounish, to excommunicate, to depriue, to depose them, and to assoile them. This muche we knowe con∣cerning the Angelles, and this might you M. Iewel also haue knowen. And this confession, if occasion so re∣quired, would better haue becomme you, then your skoffes, fitter for a common Table Ieaster, then for a man, who professeth to teache others the duetie of life, and truthe of beleefe.

To S. Dionysius,* 1.30 that wrote purposely of the go∣uernment of the Churche, and made no mention of one Pope, whiche you obiecte: we saie, that we holde him for vnskilful in his Logique, who deduceth Argumen∣tes negatiuely from any Fathers authoritie: as for exam∣ple: That Father, or this Father spake not of the proce∣ding of the holy Ghost from the Father and the Sonne: Ergo there is no suche thing. Yet it had benne more for your commendation, to haue argued from Heauen to earth, from Angelles to menne, from God to the Pope, then so sottelike to reason against al good order of lear∣ning, from Authorities negatiuely. Howbeit in dede the manner of your reasoning is, not from God to the Pope, from Angelles to menne, from Heauen to earth▪ but from truth to errour, from Religion to Hugonotrie, from Christianitie to Paganisme, from good to naught, from Christe to Antichriste from God to Satan. whiche man∣ner

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of argumentes is not very holesome.

* 1.31You make muche a doo, for that I mistake the na•••• of Iosue, for Osee. To mistake one mannes name for an other, as long as there is no preiudice thereby made to the necessary doctrine of our Faith, and the place truely alleged: althoughe the name were mistaken, it is but humaine errour. In that I named Iosue for Osee, I acknowledge myne errour, and wishe you would do the like when you erre, and then ye should cal in againe al that you haue written hitherto, wherein you should doo wel in wise mennes Iudgement, and most safely for the wealth of your owne soule. But to traine the people from truth to heresie, and stubbornly therein to continew, as you doo M. Iewel, and where no other shifte wil serue you, there to assaie, whether you can skoffe out the truthe: this is not humaine errour, but a Deuilish practise.

* 1.32The place of Osee was alleged for no other pur∣pose, but to shew, that God doth vs to vnderstand, that his Churche militant is then in most perfite state, and in best order, when al true beleeuers, bothe conuerted Iewes, and Gentiles, doo obey one Head. Now then, if in the Gouernment of one Head consiste the best Or∣der, and state, that can be planted in the Church, though it be true,* 1.33 that our Sauiour Christ be that one Inuisible Head, as I neuer denied, but that he is: yet that the Vi∣sible Churche atteine vnto that perfite Order and state, whiche the Prophete Osee commendeth for the best,* 1.34 it behoueth, that it haue one Visible general Head, that shal keepe and mainteine visible, and external Order emong al the faithful. This is the force of my drifte.

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Neither for al that did I denie,* 1.35 but that Christe is that one Head, that Christe is that one Shepeheard that S. Iohn spake of, whiche I doo openly confesse in my Con∣futation of the Apologie, in the selfe same place, where I allege the saying of the Prophete Osee, and the saying of Christe out of S. Ihon. So that you needed not to allege al that out of S. Hierome, Nicolaus Lyra, and S. Augustine, to proue that which I confessed before.* 1.36 But this is your manner alwaies M. Iewel, to shewe your copie in matters vndoubted, and impertinent, and when ye come to ioyne with your aduersarie in the ve∣ry pointe, that lieth in controuersie, then are you pos∣sessed with a dumme spirite, and for ought that is to the purpose, you can saie nothing.

The argument, whiche you allege out of Opus Tri∣partitum annexed to the Councel of Constance, I mar∣ueile that you had the face to bring it forth.* 1.37 What meane you M. Iewel? Is it not there set for an obiecti∣on against the truthe? And euen there in the nexte Chapter answered, and soiled? What learned man euer brought in his Defence the Obiections set forth by a Doctour, to thintent by the solution of them the truthe maie more clearely appeare? By this you shewe your selfe to be very shamelesse, and that you care not in what trippes learned menne take you, so that for the time it be not espied, and you to the vnlearned people seeme a ioily felowe. I referre you for the Answere to that Obiection to the chapter there following, where you shal finde it fully answered.

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Iewel. Pag. 102.

* 1.38Like as the Emperour Caligula somitemes tooke of the hea of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 great God Iuppitr, and set on an other head of his ovvne: euen so by these interpretations, and Gloses, M. Harding smiteth of Christe (his great God, M. Iewel should haue said to make it answer to Iuppiter Caligulas great God) the only Head of the Church,* 1.39 and setteth on the Pope.

Harding. Answer to the former Comparison.

* 1.40What Sir, doo you compare me with Caligula the Emperour, and Christe our Sauiour God and Man, with Iuppiter the Idol? This comparison is not very hand∣some. But marke gentle Reader, how M. Iewel speaketh more honestly of me,* 1.41 then he was aware. Here are Caligula the Emperour, and I, compared together: Iup∣piter, the Emperour Caligulaes great God, and Christe my great God. In which comparison, as M. Iewel hath ouershot him selfe too foule, in comparing Christe with Iuppiter: euen so haue I some cause to yelde him a fewe thinne and sclender thankes, for that he acknowlegeth Christe to be my great God, as he is in deede, though this confession seemeth to haue leapt out of his penne vnaduisedly.

The difference that he would not see, standeth in this point, that Iuppiters owne head, and the head that Cali∣gula tooke to set in place of it, could not agree together, without monstrous deformitie, and inequalitie to Iuppi∣ters bodie. Christe the supreme Head of the whole Churche,* 1.42 and the Pope, who is but Christes Vicare, his ministerial head, or vnderhead, doo maruelously agree together: So that the one is the Inuisible Head continu∣ally

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by influence of grace, the Pope the Visible Head, eche Pope for his time, to keepe Visible rule, and Order emong the people, by visible meane, whereof as being menne they haue neede.

An other difference he might haue seene also, if it had pleased him: that Iupiter the Idol had no people vnder him to be exercised in the absence of his owne head, in the vse and right faith of the holy Sacramentes: Christe our Sauiour is visibly absent for the exercise of Christian peoples faith in him, and in the holy Sacramentes. Whose visible absence, if it were not supplied by a visible gene∣ral Head, vnder whom the people might be ruled, there would folowe infinite disorder, and Babylonical Con∣fusion.

Iewel. Pag. 102.

Thus vve are taught, that Christe is neither the head of his ovvne body the Churche, nor the shepeherd of his ovvne flocke, but only the Pope.

Harding.

Emong many other lies, whiche you haue deuised against vs, to sporte your selfe withal, this is not onely a flat lie, but also a skoffing, and a sclaunderous lie. We neuer taught so, we neuer wrote so. If ye proue it not, let the shame be yours.

Iewel.

And yet Chrysostome saith, Qui non vtitur Sacra Scriptura, sed ascendit aliunde, id est, non concessa via, hic non Pastor est,* 1.43 sed fur. VVhosoeuer vseth not the holy Scripture, but cōmeth in an other vvaie, that is not lavvful (vvhiche is by false Gloses, and corruptions) he is not the Shephearde of the flocke, he is the theefe.

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Harding. M. Iewel in reasoning suppresseth that, wherein the proufe resteth: so his argumentes must be weake and vaine.

* 1.44You laie forth many solemne Maiors diuers times, as this out of S. Chrysostome, and thereupon without either laying forth of the Minor, or proufe thereof (notwith∣standing the whole matter on your behalfe to be proued standeth in the Minor) you vse to inferre your seely Con∣clusions. As here you reason after this wise. Who so euer vseth not the holy Scripture, but commeth in from an other where, that is to saie, by a waie not lawful (for so S. Chry∣sostome speaketh, and not as you haue falsified him) he is not the shephearde of the flocke: Ergo, the Pope is not the shephearde of the flocke. How proueth M. Iewel this ar∣gument with al the Logique he hath? Had it not ben reason,* 1.45 he had first proued, that the Pope vseth not the holy Scripture, neither commeth in according to the Scripture, but that he commeth in by some other vnlaw∣ful waie, whiche ought to haue ben his Minor? This bi∣cause he sawe he was not hable to proue, he thought it good policie to suppresse it with silence.

But let the question be asked of S. Chrysostome, who vseth holy Scripture better, he that saith, that the charge of the whole worlde was committed to Peter (and conse∣quently to his successours) as the same Chrysostom saith: or he, that denieth flatly, that any suche thing maie be concluded out of the Scripture.

It is to true, that you bring in of S. Augustine, that the note, or marke of a Bisshop many geue vnto Wolues, and

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be Wolues them selues. You had neuer the true Character of a Bishop, being neuer lawfully consecrated by three lawful Bishoppes, as the holy Canons require: and yet you beare your selfe for a Bishop, and vsurpe Bishoply office: therefore you are one of the Wolues, that S. Augustine spake of. Leaue rauening, and deceiuing of Goddes people, and become penitent, that you maie be saued with the meeke shepe of Christes flocke, and not be damned euerlastingly with the rauening Wolues.

Iewel. Pag. 102. &. 103.

M. Harding saithe farther: For asmuche as Christe is ascended into Heauen, and is novv no more conuersant emongest vs in visible Fourme, as he vvas before, it behoued some one man to be put in com∣mission for bearing the charge, and taking care for the vvhole Churche. Therefore he said vnto Peter, Feede my flocke: Confirme thy Bre∣thren. First vvhat auncient learned Father euer thus scanned the vvordes of the popes commission? Or vvhy doth M. Harding auouche so great a matter of him selfe onely, vvithout farther Authoritite? &c.

Harding. Feede my Sheepe, are wordes of Peters commission to gouerne the Churche, and the same is proued by the Fathers.

You tel my tale in suche wise,* 1.46 as you maie best make the matter seeme weake, and sclender. First I thinke good here to set before the reader (who is now made iudge of this controuersie) myne owne wordes, as I vt∣tered them my selfe. Then I shal the better frame my Answer to that you obiecte. Thus I saie.

Where these Defenders,* 1.47 as others the Aduersaries of this vnitie saie, that Christe is this one shepheard, this one

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Head who is so,* 1.48 we denie not, Shepeheard of his flock, Head of his body, Bridegrome of his spouse, Prince of hi kingdome, as it is before declared: yet saie they therein nothing to the disproufe of the catholique doctrine tou∣ching vnitie of the Head, which is in steed, and ministerie of Christ. For whereas the Father hath geuen to Christ al power in heauē and earth, so as he only is the King, Head, ruler, Iudge of al, the Pastour and Bishop of our soules: and therefore they whiche we acknowledge to be Kinges, Headdes, Rulers, iudges, Pastours, and Bishoppes in earth, be his Vicares, Lieuetenantes, Vicegerentes, and Ministers: al this power, by what name so euer it be cal∣led, being suche as is exercised and administred by his worde: neede it is, that for asmuche as Christe now dwelleth not with vs in visible presence, his Churche haue one man to doo his steede of outwarde ruling in earth, by his worde to administer al that is behooful, and to performe the duetie of the head in respecte of the bodie.

Now that Christe is not conuersant with vs visibly, as he was with his Disciples before his passion, and preacheth no more vnto vs with his owne mouth sen∣sibly: to atteine the vnderstanding of his wil, we maie not looke to haue God appeare vnto vs, as he did vnto the Fathers of the olde Testament, to speake to vs, as he did to Moyses face to face, mouth to mouth, as the Scripture saith, to sende vs his Angel, as he did to the Virgine Marie, to instruct vs with visions from Heauen,* 1.49 as he instructed Peter, to take vs vp into the thirde heauen, as he tooke Paule, there to heare the secretes of his wil: but it behoueth vs to be content for

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the working of that whiche remaineth to be done tou∣ching our Saluation, with suche order, as hath pleased him. For it is manifest, that Christe perfiteth al the Sa¦cramentes of the Churche. He it is, that baptizeth, he it is, that forgeueth sinnes, he is the true priest, that hath offered him selfe on the Crosse, and by whose power his body is daily consecrated, and offered on the Aulter. Yet bicause he would not remaine in visible presence with al beleeuers, he chose menne to be his Ministers, by whom the forsaid thinges should be done, and ministred to them. By like reason, forasmuch as he would take frō the Chur∣che his corporal and visible presence, it behoued some one man to be put in Commissiō for bearing the charge, and taking care of the Churche in lieu, and steede of him selfe. For this purpose before his Ascensiō he said to Peter, whose loue he had tried, and found to be most feruent a∣boue al others, feede my shepe, and before his Passion, Thou being againe cōuerted, strengthen thy brethren,* 1.50 And to him specially he said by promise, To thee wil I geue the keies of the kingdome of heauen, thereby to shewe, that the power of the keies should be deriued to others by him for the better keping of the vnitie of the Churche.

Now let it be iudged, with what substantial learning you haue cōfuted this doctrine. If it had not ben sounde, and such as clearely openeth, what we meane,* 1.51 when we cal the Pope the chiefe Pastour, and supreme Gouernour of Christes Flocke: doubtelesse you would not haue leafte it out of your booke. For you (making a shewe, as though you had printed my whole booke againe, and so confuted it) take onely that pleaseth you, and leaue out what seemeth to hard for you to answere, mangling, dis∣ordering,

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and confounding my whole treatie, to thin•••••••• it may beare the lesse face of learning, and of good prouf of the thinges I intreate of, which is a foule practise n∣uer vsed by any lerned man hitherto. And yet you would men to beleeue, you deale truly, and plainely in laying foorth my Confutation. Yet here hauing nothing to saie elles, least you should seeme to geue ouer, you de∣maund of me, what auncient Father euer thus skanned the woordes of the Popes Commission, or why I haue auouched so great a matter of my selfe, without farther authoritie.

Thus when I bring Fathers, you cal for Scripture, when I allege Scripture,* 1.52 you aske what auncient Father euer vnderstode it so, or why I dare so handle the Scripture: so ye wil be sure not to lacke mater of wrangling, what so euer I saie. Yet thus I answer. It is no hard peece of worke to proue by sufficient authoritie, that these wor∣des, Pasce oues meas, feede my sheepe, spoken to Peter, and in him to his successours,* 1.53 gaue Peter and his successours, Authoritie gneral to gouerne the whole Churche. S. Chysostome treating vpon these wordes, saith, as it is be∣fore alleged, that the charge to rule the whole worlde was geuen to Peter, and cōsequently to his successours. S. Gre∣gorie saith the same, as is before rehersed. Pascere, is not a word that signifieth to feede only, as you know, but also to rule and gouerne, and therefore Homere calleth King Agamemnon, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, the Pastor, that is to say, the ruler of the people.

And that it may appeare, that I auouche not this matter, and applie the place of S. Iohns Gospel to it of my selfe onely without farder Authoritie, as you say:

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it may please you to heare S. Ambrose teaching the same, and in manner with the same woordes, that I vsed, wri∣ting vpon the .24. Chapter of S. Luke, thus he saieth.* 1.54

Dominus interrogabat, non vt disceret, sed vt doceret, quem eleuandus in coelum amoris sui nobis velut Vicarium relinquebat. Sic enim habes: Simon Ioannis diligis me? vtique tu scis Domine, quia amo te. Dicit ei Iesus, pasce agnos meos. Bene conscius sui, non ad tempus assumptum, sed iam dudum Deo cognitum Petrus testificatur affectum. Quis est enim alius, qui de se hoc facilè profiteri possit? Et ideo quia solus profitetur ex omnibus, omnibus antefertur. Our Lorde asked (that question of Peter, whether he loued him) not to learne, but to teache him, whom being to be lifted vp into heauen he leaft vnto vs,* 1.55 as the Vicare of his loue (that is to saie in plainer termes, such a one, as should be in steede of Christe in those thinges, that for his tender loue towardes vs he would vs to haue.) For euen so thou hast (in the Ghospel) Si∣mon the sonne of Iohn louest me? Yea verely thou knowest Lorde, that I loue thee. Iesus saieth vnto him: Feede my lambes. Peter here knowing right wel the secretes of his owne conscience, professeth that his good affection (whiche he bare to Christe) was not nowe entred into him for the present time, but that God knew it long before. For who is the man elles, that may soone professe this much of him selfe? And therefore in asmuch as he onely of al professeth it, he is preferred before al.

Lo M. Iewel, by this you maie see, I spake not of this matter altogether of myne owne head, and without far∣ther autoritie. S. Ambrose saith in effect so much as I said,

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That Christ, for so much as he should ascende into hea¦uen, and withdrawe his visible presence from vs, lea•••• behinde, him for our behoofe S. Peter, as Vicare of his loue. Nowe of this I may conclude, for so muche as Christe, who died for our loue, and redemed vs with his bloude, ceasseth not to loue vs: that he leafte not onely Peter, to be the Vicare of his loue for his owne life only, but also Peters Successours for euer, that is to saie, the Popes, for other Peters Successours we knowe not.

Arnobius likewise vnderstādeth this supreme charge, and auctoritie to be geuen vnto Peter, and therefore consequently vnto Peters Successours, applying the same texte of Scripture to that purpose. These be his wordes.* 1.56 Nullus Apostolorum nomen Pastoris accepit. So∣lus enim Dominus Iesus Christus dicebat, ego sum Pastor b∣nus: & iterum, me, inquit, sequunturoues meae. Hoc ergo no∣men sanctum, & ipsius nominis potestatem post resurrectio∣nem suam Petropoenitenti concessit, & ter negatus, nega∣tori suo hanc, quam solus habuit, tribuit potestatem. None of the Apostles hath receiued the name of Pastor (or shepeheard.) For our Lorde Iesus Christe alone said, I am a good Shepeheard. And againe, my shepe (saith he) folow me. So then this holy name, and the power of the name, our Lorde after his resurrection gaue to Pe∣ter being repentant, and being thrise denied, he gaue the auctoritie, whiche he had alone, vnto his denier.

* 1.57S. Ambrose according to the worde of cōmission spo∣kē to Peter thrise repeted, feede, feede, feede, noteth three degrees of authoritie to be exercised in feeding. Iam non agnos, vt primò, quodam lacte vescendos, nec oniculas, vt se∣cundò, sed oues pascere iubetur, perfectiores vt perfectior gu∣bernaret.

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Now (that is to say, when Christe said at the thirde time, Feede) Peter is not commaunded to feede lambes, that are to be fed with a certaine milke, as at the first time: nor is he commaunded to feede the litle sheepe, as at the second time: but the Sheepe he is commaunded to feede, that the perfiter should gouerne them, that are of the perfiter sorte.

That learned Father S. Leo saith,* 1.58 Cùm Petro prae caete∣ris soluendi & ligandisit tradita potestas, pascendarum ta∣men ouium cura specialius mandata est. Whereas the power to loose, and binde was deliuered vnto Peter aboue the reste, yet the charge of feeding the Shepe, is committed to him more specially. The same S. Leo saith of Peter in an other place, Non solùm Romanae sedis, sed & omnium Episcoporum nouerunt esse primatem. As for Peter, they knowe him not onely to be chiefe ruler of the See of Rome, but also the Primate of al Bishops.* 1.59

What shal I allege S. Gregorie, whose woordes be most manifest? He acknowlegeth S. Peter, and there∣fore euery Bishop of Rome his Successour, to haue the charge of the whole Churche by cōmission of Christ, al∣leging to that purpose the wordes, for alleging of whiche you blame me, as though I did it of mine owne selfe with∣out farther authoritie. Thus he saith.* 1.60 Cunctis Euangelium scientibus liquet, &c. It is euident to al that knowe the Gospel, that the cure and charge of the whole Church, hath ben com∣mitted by the word of our Lorde, to the holy Apostle Peter prince of al the Apostles: For to him it is said. Peter,* 1.61 louest thou me? feede my shepe: to him it is said, Beholde Sathan hath desired to sifte you, as it were wheate, and I haue praied for thee Peter, that thy faith faile not.* 1.62 And thou being once

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conuerted, strengthen thy brethren. To him it is said. Thou 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Peter, and vpon this rocke I wil builde my Churche, and the gates of Hel shal not preuaile against it. And vnto thee I wil geue the keies of the kingdome of Heauen: And what∣soeuer thou bindest vpon earth, shalbe bound also in hea∣uen, and what so euer thou lowsest on earthe, shalbe lowsed also in heauen. Beholde he receiueth the keies of the hea∣uenly kingdome: the power of binding and lowsing is geuen to him: the charge of the whole Churche, and principalli∣tie is committed to him. And here I wil adde that folow∣eth in S. Gregorie, & tamen vniuersalis Apostolus non vocatur, and yet he is not called the vniuersal Apostle, least M. Iewel finde great faulte with me,* 1.63 as he doth in his Replie, for leauing it out, and least once againe he feine, that I haue the Chinecoughe, and that I set S. Gregorie to schoole,* 1.64 and keepe him in awe, and suffer him not to tel more then I wil geue him leaue, and many suche gaie good morowes, that needed not at al. The same S. Gregorie writeth in much like sorte to Eulogius Bisshop of Alexandria.

Leauing al other Fathers, that might here to this pur∣pose be alleged,* 1.65 for breuities sake I wil ende with S. Bernarde, who writeth thus to Eugenius. Other pa∣stours haue their flockes assigned vnto them, eche man one. Al are committed to thee, the one whole flocke to one. Neither art thou onely the Pastour of al the sheepe, but also the onely Pastour of al the Pastours. Demaundest thou of me, howe I prooue it? Forsooth out of the woorde of God.* 1.66 For I praie you to whom (I wil not saie of the Bis∣shoppes) but also of the Apostles, were al the sheepe so absolutely, and indeterminately committed? If thou loue

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me Peter, feede my sheepe: whiche sheepe? The people of this, or of that citie, of this, or of that countrie, or king∣dome? My sheepe, quod he. Who now doth not euidently see that Christe did not appointe him certaine, but assigned him al? Where no distinction is made, there nothing is ex∣cepted. Thus you see, how litle cause you had to saie, why doth M. Harding auouche so great a matter of him selfe onely without farther authoritie.

Iewel. Pag. 103.

And if this so large Commission be to Feede, and feede so many, vvhy then doth the Pope feede so litle?

Harding. The Pope feedeth, and why Christe appointed him to be his Vicare.

The stubbornesse of Heretiques is a lette,* 1.67 that his diligent feeding can not take place in many. Howe manie Articles of the Christian Doctrine had the per∣uersitie of Heretiques wrapped vp in a Confusion, and brought in doubte, that fewe menne knewe, howe to vnfolde them? The Popes diligent feeding hath so by General Councelles through his authoritie and care assembled, vnfolded, and disclosed all the false craftes, and sleightes of Heretiques: that nowe eue∣ry man that wil, maie haue in a readinesse by perusing the Canons of the Councelles, what Doctrine is true, and holesome, what is false, and heretical. Of late yeares he emploied his diligence in calling all* 1.68

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the Protestantes vnto the Councel of Trent, he gaue them safe Conductes to come, and departe without dan∣ger of their personnes, and there, during the time of their abode, to propone, argue, and dispute of the pointes in cō∣trouersie with al freedome.* 1.69 But ye of England knowing your owne weaknesse, and that ye were not so wel hable to prooue your doctrine in learned Assemblies, as ye were with boasting Chalenges, and bolde talkes to prate it out of pulpites emong the ignorant at home, least with shame ye should there haue ben put to silence, and prooued vnlearned: wylily absented your selues. Notwithstanding libertie was geuen you, to come, and saie for your Gospel, what ye could, and as it appea∣reth in the Actes of the same, to frame your safe Con∣ducte, if ye desliked the fourme set foorth in the Coun∣cel, in as ample manner for your owne safegarde, and be∣nefite, as ye could deuise.

Iewel. Pag. 103.

Againe, vvhere learned M. Harding to reason thus: Christe is ascended into heauen, Ergo, the Pope is head of the vvhole vvorlde?

Harding.

Nay, where learned M. Iewel to fashon suche pee∣uish argumentes, of his owne deuise, and fathering them vpon his Aduersarie, to scoffe at them, as if they were of his Aduersaries making? If this Argument be naught, let him amend it, that framed it. If it be ridiculous, the Reader may see, what a ridiculous head he hath, that brought it forth. My reason dependeth in this sorte. If it had pleased Christ to haue remained here visibly emong

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vs alwaies, and to haue taken continual order him selfe for the external gouernment of the Churche: we should not haue needed any other general head, but Christe him selfe, who had ben sufficient. But for asmuch as Christes bodily, and visible presence through his Ascension was for good purposes taken awaie from vs, that we might haue better occasion to exercise faith, and the holy Sa∣cramentes: it was needeful, that in his steede he should leaue some one General Vicegerent,* 1.70 and Vicare of his loue, as S. Ambrose termeth him, that should haue ful au∣thoritie to rule the whole Churche. The partes of this reason are wel linked together, both by diuinitie, and also by logique. As M. Iewel hath framed it, it serueth for no∣thing, but to make sporte emong Prentises. I allege not Christes Ascension for the ful and sufficient cause of ha∣uing one general Head, as M. Iewel would beare menne in hande, if any be so simple to beleeue him:* 1.71 but as the occasion, why he should place an other in the absence of his Visible person, in his steede. The necessitie of the Churche, that disorder and confusion be auoided, and that vnitie be kepte, considered together with the great loue, that Christe hath to the Churche, is the ful cause why Christe placed in his steede a general Vicegerent, Vicarium amoris sui, the vicare of his loue, as S. Ambrose calleth him.

Iewel. Ibidem.

But ye saie, God speaketh not novv vnto vs mouth to mouth. &c.

Harding. What rule is like to be, if the Scripture be made ruler and gouernour.

Your drifte is in this place,* 1.72 to put the whole gouern∣ment

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of the Church quite from the Pope, whom Chry∣sostome, as I haue tolde you before, taketh to be the vni∣uersal Head, bicause he is S. Peters Successour, and to driue vs to deliuer the whole rule vnto the Scripture, and that being remoued quite from any one certaine sense, and leafte to mennes Phantasies to descant vpon it. What vnitie, and good Order wil folowe thereof, they of Germanie, ye of England, the Lutherans, the Zuin∣glians, the Caluinistes, the Osiandrines, the Zuencfeldi∣ans, the Anabaptistes, the new Puritanes that now spring vp so freshly, and other sectes wherewith the worlde swarmeth, haue tolde vs already, the whiche could neuer yet come to any good vnitie, and common agreement.

Ye leaue vs also an other sorte of gouernours, Apo∣stles,* 1.73 Prophetes, Euangelistes, Pastours, and Doctours, of whom S. Paule speaketh. If these be the Gouernours appointed by holy Scripture, how falleth it out, that ye, contrary to Scripture, haue geuen the supreme gouern∣ment of your Church of England to laye Princes, some being vnder their nources gouernance, some being wo∣men?* 1.74 If these forenamed the Apostles, &c. be the right gouernours, how happeth it, that they can doo nothing concerning Order to be taken for the Churche, but by authoritie deriued from a mere laie power? If these, that is to saie, the successours of the Apostles, Prophetes, &c. be the right gouernours, what if any of these iarre, and fal at square emong them selues (as it hath oftentimes ben seene) either within the compasse of one Realme, or in diuers Realmes, and doo poison the people with sundry Heresies, to whom shal we resorte to haue them called home, and reduced vnto order? whom haue you least vs

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in this case, as Iudge, and supreme Gouernour to ende al Dissensions, and to condemne perilous Heresies? They of Germanie take them selues to be as good menne, and to knowe the Truth, as wel (if no better) as either D. Par∣ker of Canturburie, or M. Grindal of London, or Bache∣ler Yonge of Yorke, or any of the other wiued Priestes, Monkes, and Friers, yea as M Iew. of Sarisburie him selfe.

Ye of England wil not yelde to them of Saxonie, they of Lifeland, Swethen, Denmarke, Pole, Scotland, Zuit∣zerland, and Geneua, wil not yelde them selues subiectes to either of you both. And yet euery one of these sundry congregations wil preach stil the doctrine of their owne secte, one cōtrarie to an other. How now M. Iewel? Let vs heare what wise tale you cā tel vs, by whose authoritie we maie come from these great Dissensions, and manifold Schismes, to Vnitie. Intreatie can not doo it. Colloquies, meetinges, and Conferences of the learned of eche secte, can not bring it to passe. The more it hath ben attempted, the worse ende hath euer benne concluded. Haue not you leaft vs then a beautiful Church? a blessed cōpanie of Ministers, that wil not come to Order? Yea leauing vs without any lawful authoritie of one Head to reduce vs to vnitie, do you not leaue vs in endlesse strifes, and inde∣terminable broilles? Be we not much bound vnto you? Were not the worlde wise, and wel aduised, to forsake al old orders, and to put cōfidence in this your new deuise?

The same selfe S. Chrysostome, whom you allege to haue al ruled by the Scriptures, sawe a litle farther, then you see M. Iewel, when he said, that the charge of the whole worlde was committed to Peter.* 1.75 So did S. Am∣brose, when he named Peter, and by a consequent Peters

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Successour, the Vicare of Christes loue. So did Theodorit••••, when he said, the See of Rome holdeth the sterne, and hath the gouernment of the Churches of the whole worlde.

You allege S. Cyprian, though farre otherwise then he writeth, and that out of that epistle, in whiche he willeth Stephanus the Pope to depose Martianus the Bishop of Arles in Fraunce for Heresie, and put an other in his roome, whiche argueth a supreme authoritie of gouern∣ment in the Pope: you allege him I saie, as if he said, that therefore there are many Bishoppes in the Churche, that if one fal into heresie, the rest maie helpe. But what if there be as many Heretique Bishoppes, as there be Ca∣tholique, as it hath commonly benne seene in the East Churche? What if the Heretiques, being more learned, wil not yeelde?

* 1.76S. Cyprian in an other place spareth not to tel you, that Schismes, ād heresies rise of no other cause, then for that the whole brotherhed, that is to saie, the companie of Chri∣stian people, Obeye not one high Prieste, that is in Christes steede. Whiche saying by what reason it taketh place in euery seueral Dioces, by the same it is to be vnderstan∣ded in respecte of the whole worlde. For as Here∣sies rise of disobedience of the people to their Bishop: so they rise no lesse, yea rather muche more, as ex∣perience teacheth, of the disobedience of the Bishoppes them selues, if they wil not be vnder one Head. And as the people are not kepte in vnitie, but by being vnder one Bishop, so neither the Bishoppes, excepte they be likewise vnder one chiefe Head, and ruler, who is the Successour of Peter, to whom, as louing Christe more then the reste, whiche the Scripture

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sheweth, the charge, not onely of the lambes, and weaker sheepe, but also of the great and stronger sheepe, was committed, as S. Ambrose before alleged, hath wel noted.

Whether S. Peter were faulte worthy, when S. Paule reproued him, as you tel vs without proufe,* 1.77 it remaineth in question betwixte S. Augustine, and S. Hierome. But if there were any thing worthy of reprehension in S. Peter that S. Paule sawe, there was great humilitie in S. Peter to agnise the faulte by the warning of his inferi∣our. Likewise there was in S. Victor the Pope, in that he would geue eare vnto S. Ireneus. Of that S. Peters humilitie thus speaketh S. Cyprian in his epistle to Quin∣tus, whiche is also rehearsed of S Augustine.* 1.78 Nam nec Petrus, quem primum Dominus elegit, & super quem aedifi∣cauit Ecclesiam suam, cùm secum Paulus de Circumcisione disceptaret, postmodum vendicauit sibi aliquid insolenter, aut arroganter assumpsit, vt diceret se primatum tenere, & obtemperari à nouellis & posteris sibi potius debere.* 1.79 For neither Peter whom our Lorde chose to be first, and vppon whom he builded his Churche, at what time Paule reasoned with him about Circumcision, by and by chalenged any thing proudly vnto him selfe, or stately tooke ought vpon him, as to saie, that he helde the Pri∣macie (or the chiefe rule ouer al) and that suche as came newly to the Faith, and were his aftercommers, ought rather to obeie him. But this kinde of humilitie is not found emong Heretiques. The more courteously they be warned of their Heresie, the more stubborne they growe, and staie not so, but doo the vttermost they can, to make their parties as good, as the Catholiques, as by

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sundry olde heretiques, to them that haue reade the Tr∣gedies by them plaied in the Churche, is most euident. How now M. Iewel? What remedie? Shal we resorte in this case to any Head, that hath General authoritie, or stand stil iarring, and snarling the one at the other, with∣out alremedie? For ought I see, you are like to leaue vs stil in the briers.

Touching your gloses of the Canon Lawe, they maie perhappes one daie, if it shal be thought worth the la∣bour, be altogether answered in some one seueral trea∣tise, where doubtelesse it shal appeare, to your smal estimation, with what beggerly ragges, and clowtes, you haue patched together your clowted cloke.

Iewel. Pag. 104.

For the rest, M. Harding saith, One King is hable to rule one Kingdome: Ergo, one Pope is hable to rule the vvhole Churche.

Harding.

My talke runneth not so bare, as you rehearse it: your grace is alwaie to reporte worse, then you finde. I said, that a King (or Queene) in gouerning a Realme, ruleth not al in his owne person, but doth many thinges by his Deputees and Officers. Euen so, why maie not the Pope in al Christendome take order, by other fitte menne hauing from him commission, notwithstan∣ding his person be not present? For very shame M. Iewel, make not your Aduersaries tale worse then you finde it: For by that you must muche discredite your cause.

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Iewel. Pag. 104.

Of the gouernment of Princes vve haue daielie practise: But of Popes, that euer vsed this vniuersal Dominion ouer the vvhole Church of God, M. Harding is not hable to shevve vs one.

Harding. The gouernment of the whole Churche exerci∣sed by the Popes actually.

If the Popes manner had benne to bring menne in subiection by the Sworde, and force of Armes,* 1.80 as it is not, whiche thing Kinges haue vsed to doo: then had ye as wel knowen the Popes Vniuersal Gouern∣ment (whiche you had rather cal Dominion) by pra∣ctise, as you doo nowe knowe the Kinges. Or were it so that ye fealte so sensibily the paine of Excommuni∣cation, as ye doo the tormentes, that Kinges vse against Rebelles, when they once drawe their sworde of correction: you would muche more feare to offende the Pope, then ye doo now the force of Princes. But your manner is alwaies to feare him, that hath the sen∣sible rodde in his hande, ready at a worde to geue the stroke: the Pope bicause he vseth long patience, before he striketh, and when he striketh, his stroke bringeth no bodily paine, but causeth a spiritual se∣paration of mannes soule for his contumacie, from the vnitie of the Church, and from God, whiche is not sen∣sibly fealte: therefore ye feare to offende Princes, and vtterly set nought by the Popes autoritie.

But what if none of the Popes hitherto euer ex∣ercised their vniuersal gouernment ouer the whole

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Churche of God (whiche in deede is not true) is the•••• right therefore any thing the lesse? Not at al. The Duke of Sauoie (you know) hath in right the Dominion and rule of Geneua, yet they of the towne (suche is the spi∣rite that your holy Gospel breatheth into the people) like errant Rebelles haue kept him out of his right many yeres. And what if this be not true, that you saie? What if diuers Popes maie be named, that haue ruled the whole Churche, both the East, and the Weast, as farre as any Christian Emperour extended his Dominion? Maie you not then reuoke your stoute assertion? You haue read, I suppose, of the great councel of Chalcedon vnder Pope Leo, and of the great Councel of Lateran vnder Inno∣centius tertius, and the Councelles of Florence, and of Lions. How saie you, I praie you, finde ye not there, that the Greeke Churche, as wel as the Latine Churche, agnised the Popes Supremacie? I denie not, but that a fewe Heretiques, or Schismatiques perhappes might disobeie him at certaine time, and in certaine places. But what then? So doo rebelles oftetimes disobeye their Princes. His authoritie notwithstanding tooke place through the whole Churche emong obedient Chri∣stians.

Iewel. Pag. 104.

But God be thanked, it appeareth already to al them that haue eyes to see, that vve haue not departed from the seruile obedience of that See, But vpon iust cause, and good aise.

Harding.

* 1.81Yea God wote, vpon as iuste causes, as they of Ger∣manie rebelled against Charles the fift, that noble Prince,

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theire lawful Emperour, or, if ye list, vpon as iust causes, as they of Geneua departed from the Duke of Sauoie their lawful Prince, or, if ye wil wade farther, vpon as iust causes, as the Huguenotes of Fraunce haue, to re∣moue their lawful king from the godly and accustomed gouernment of his realme, by open rebellion, now the second time.

What you accompte seruile obedience,* 1.82 I know not, but of this I am wel assured: that such gouernment as ye, and they of your spirite vse in some places, when the worlde serueth your turne for the establishing of your Gospel to worke your policies, maie wel be cal∣led a yoke made of harde yron, whereas the Popes yoke (if it must needes be called a yoke,* 1.83 bicause ye speake of seruile obedience) is but of softe wood, that is to saie, light, and easie. As al theeues would glad∣ly departe from the obedience of their lawful Iudge, and cal it Seruile, if that might be allowed: euen so al suche aduersaries of the Catholique Churche, can thinke euery smal cause, yea being no iust cause at al, sufficient to departe from the obedience of the Pope the chiefe Pastour, whose office is to condemne al their Heresies, as al your Heresies at this daie are con∣demned in the Councel of Trent by the Popes autho∣ritie.

Touching the argument you make à contrario sensu,* 1.84 out of the wordes of Calixtus Epistle in Gratian: if you had foreseene the folie of it, I dare saie,* 1.85 you would neuer haue printed it for very shame. The argu∣ment is this. What so euer is done without discretion of Iustice, against the order of the Churche of Rome, it

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maie not by any meanes be allowed: Ergo, what soeuer is done by discretion of Iustice, notwithstanding it be again•••• the Order of the Churche of Rome: yet ought it to be wel al∣lowed. First, your duetie had benne, to haue laied the causes of your departure from the Churche of Rome be∣fore some lawful Iudge, and haue proued the causes so alleged, both true and iuste, and not to make your selues iudges, both of the sufficiencie of the causes, and of your departure. Nexte, your duetie had benne, to haue wei∣ghed wel this Argument, whether it receiueth any de∣ceitful sophistication,* 1.86 either in it selfe, or in his like. Is this argument (trowe ye) good, M. Iewel? What so euer thing is donne without discretion of Iustice, against the order of Goddes lawe, it maie not by any meanes be al∣lowed: Ergo, what so euer is donne by discretion of Iu∣stice, notwithstanding it be against the Order of Goddes lawe, yet ought it to be wel allowed. And yet is this argument in al pointes like yours. Suche Diuinitie, suche Logique. Wel maie this Logique be allowed in your new schoole at Geneua, in any learned Vniuersitie of Chri∣stendome certainely it wil not be allowed. Looke what faulte ye can finde in the later Argument, the same maie ye finde in your owne. This later maie be a glasse vnto you, to beholde your folio in the first.

* 1.87Verely where you founde these wordes in Gratian, euen there in your owne Glose vpon Gratiā, you found your Argument disproued with these very wordes. Hic vacat argumentum à contrario sensu: Here the argument deduced of the contrarie sense is voide, and holdeth not. This you saw, or your gatherer for you. Yet you would it should out, be it taken wel, or otherwise. Thus you delight

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to be striking, though we can soone heale your woundes. For so you thinke to persuade the simple, that ye haue muche matter against vs.

The places of S. Augustine, and of Pius, that you allege,* 1.88 make nothing against the Pope, therefore I marueile why you allege them, seruing you to so litle purpose. Per∣haps this may be your manner of reasoning: S. Augustine would not haue vs to geue ouer to any Bishops, be they neuer so Catholique, if they happely be deceiued, and be of a contrarie iudgement to Scripture: Ergo, we maie not beleeue the Pope, if he be of a contrarie iudgement to Scripture. Why did not you first proue, that the Pope hath determined against the Canonical Scriptures, wher∣in the whole weight of the mater lieth? But your lucke is alway to leaue that vnproued, which you should chief∣ly prooue, and to encomber the Reader most with mat∣ters impertinent, and quite besides the issue. S. Augu∣stines place would haue serued better to conclude, that menne ought not to beleeue Heretiques, whiche are certainely deceiued, if they maie not beleeue Catho∣liques, when they be deceiued. But then, where were your credite become, who are proued to be suche Wol∣ues, and Traitours, as S. Bernard spake of in Goncilio Re∣mensi, whiche Councel you allege so often times?* 1.89

Iewel. Pag. 107.

S. Hierome saithe: Dices, super Petrum fundatur Ecclesia:* 1.90 Licet idipsum in alio loco super omnes Apostolos fiat, & cuncti cla∣ues regni coelorum accipiant, & ex aequo super omnes Ecclesiae fortitudo solidetur: Ye vvel saie, The Churche is founded vpon Peter: Notvvithstanding in an other place the same thing is donne vpon al the Apostles: and al receiue the keies of the kingdome of heauen: and the strengthe of the Churche is founded equally vpon them al.

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Harding. M. Iewel allegeth this and other places to his owne confusion.

* 1.91What il fortune hath M. Iewel euer to allege the Fa∣thers to his owne shame? That so he doth, it appeareth by many other, and by this very place of S. Hierome a∣gainst Iouinian, whiche he allegeth maimedly, cutting of the halfe sentence. For the other halfe sentence is this: tamen propterea inter duodecim vnus eligitur, vt Ca∣pite constituto, Schismatis tollatur occasio. Yet emong the twelue there is one chosen out, to thintent he being or∣deined Head, the occasion of Schisme be taken awaie. Thus S. Hierome there. If I had nipte of such a notable peece of a sentence, M. Iewel would haue benne at me with the Chinecough. &c. It had serued S. Hieromes turne better, reasoning against Iouinian the Heretique (who affirmed the state of Virgins to be of no greater perfection, then the state of married personnes, as M. Ie∣wel doth also at this daie, which heresie S. Hierome con∣futed) neuer to haue graunted, that S. Peter, who had ben a married man, was ordeined to be the Head of the Churche, if it had benne, as M. Iewel would persuade. But bicause the truth was, that S. Peter was appointed Head emong the Apostles, S. Hierome doth not denie it, but sheweth the cause why he was preferred before S. Ihon the Euangelist. This is M. Iewels plaine dealing. What is falsehod, if this be not falsehod?

Iewel. Pag. 107.

S. Chrysostome of Peter saith thus:* 1.92 Duplex crimen erat, tum quia repugnauit, tum quia caeteris seipsum praeposuit: Peter vvas in

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double faulte, bothe for that e vvithstoode Christe, and also fr that he set him selfe before the reste.

Harding.

The common saying is, the blinde eateth many a flie. Euen so doth M. Iewel, for lacke of dewe conside∣ration deuoure many a soule errour. S. Chrysostome hath not one iote in this place that maketh for M. Iewel. He speaketh of that stoute confidence, that Peter had of him selfe, when he said:* 1.93 Although they al (meaning the reste of the Apostles) shal be offended by thee, I wil not be offended by thee. Neuerthelesse he offended twise, saith S. Chrysostome: First, in that he withstoode Christe, and considered not what was alleged out of Zacharie the Prophet before, who said, I wil smite the shepeheard, and the sheepe shal be scattered: Yet S. Peter (were it for the great loue, and the affection, that he bare to his Maister, or were he touched with some ambition, and trusted to wade through of him selfe without farther helpe of special grace) warranted the mater, that he would neuer fal from Christe. There is one of his faultes.

The other faulte is, Quoniam praeposuit se illis, bi∣cause he prefered him selfe before the other Apostles. What meaneth that, M. Iewel, saie you? What so euer you would menne should thinke of it, it maketh no ma∣ter. The right meaning of the place is, that Peter offen∣ded the second time, bicause he thought him selfe more sure, as touching standing to his Maister, then al the reste of the Apostles. What is this to the meaning, that you would faine wring out of this place: that Peter was not Head of the Apostles? In the selfe same Homilie before S. Chrysostome calleth him, verticem Apostolorum, the

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very Head, and chiefest of al the Apostles. Etiā ipsum Apo∣stolorū verticem negare permisit: Christ suffered (saith he) the toppe, or head him selfe of the Apostles, to denie him.

Againe, S. Chrysostome faithe in an other Homilie, as is afore tolde, that Peter had committed vnto him the charge,* 1.94 and gouernment of the whole worlde. Thus you may see, how al thinges go against the heare (as they say) with you M. Iewel, thus alwaies to allege suche sayinges out of the Fathers, as further not your cause but rather hinder it. So shal al they doo, that fight against the Truth.

Ievvel. Pag 107.

* 1.95S. Augustine maketh Peter Felovve, and Equal vvith the other Apo∣stles: Inter seconcorditer vixerunt Petrus, & Condiscipuli eius: Peter and his felovves liued agreably together.

Harding. Peter felow Disciple with the rest, and yet Head of al, by S. Augustine.

* 1.96Peter, and they that were Christes Disciples with him, liued concorditer (for that is S. Augustines worde) in good concorde together, I graunt: what conclude you thereof? So did Christe, and the Apostles liue in con∣corde and agreably together, and yet there was a diffe∣rence betwen them pardy. If you harpe vpon the terme Condiscipuli,* 1.97 whiche you interprete felowes, Christe cal∣leth his Apostles in one place his frendes, and in an other place, his brothers. And yet euery wise man confesseth a difference, and that Christe was their Head, and that they were his Disciples, and subiectes. Euen so maie we iudge of this Felowship, that was betwen Peter, and the reste of the Apostles. How be it, in the selfe same Epistle of S. Augustine, S. Peter is called Caput Apostolo∣rum,

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Coeli ianitor, & Ecclesiae fundamentum:* 1.98 The Head of the Apostles, the porter of Heauen, and the foundation of the Churche. Which saying not being S. Augustines owne, but an other mans, yet his silēce in not speaking a∣gainst it in that place, proueth, that he doth wel allow it.

And that to be euen so, the same S. Augustine in a Ser∣mone, whiche he made to the people, vnto whom he spake alwaies without al obscuritie the plaine truth, cal∣leth S. Peter Head of the Churche saying.* 1.99 Totius corpo∣ris morbum in ipso capite componit Ecclesiae: & in ipso ver∣tice componit membrorum omnium sanitatem: in Petrosci∣licet illo, qui dixerat, etiam si oportuerit me mori tecum, non te negabo. He cureth the sickenes of the whole body in (Peter) the very head it selfe of the Churche, and in the very crowne of the head it selfe, he setteth in order the health of al the members: I meane in the selfe same Peter, that had said: Although I were driuen to die with thee,* 1.100 I wil neuer denie thee.

Iewel.

And the very Ordinarie Glose geueth these vvordes to S. Paule: Non didici ab aliis, tanquam à maioribus: sed contuli cum illis,* 1.101 tan∣quam cum amicis, & paribus: I learned not of (Peter, and) others as of my betters, but I had conference with them, as with my Equalles, and frendes.

Harding. Difference betwen learning, and conferring together.

Had M. Iewel learnedly considered the difference,* 1.102 that is bewixt learning, and conferring, he would neuer for very shame haue alleged ths place of the Ordinarie Glose. In learning, the teacher is of greater dignitie, In conferring, what soeuer the personnes otherwise

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are, either of one dignitie, or of diuers: as touching the act of conference, they make them selues equal, as doth the King with his Counsel, when they laie their heades to∣gether to boult out one mater. Yet no man maie thereof reason, that there is no difference of state betwixte the King, and them of his Counsel: or that euery of the Counsel is of equal state one with an other. What neede S. Paule had of S. Peter to haue matters decided by his authoritie,* 1.103 it appeareth in the Actes of the Apostles, when he with Barnabas, and others, were sent from An∣tioche to Hierusalem, to know whether the Gentiles were bounde to be circumcised. But M. Iewels happe is alwaies to fal vpon places, that bringe him smal wor∣ship, or aduantage of his cause.

Notes

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