SECT. 1.

Our Tenet, saith H. T. is, that the Catholick and Apostolick Church of God hath had not onely a continued, but also a visible Succession from Christ to this time, &c. which we prove thus, 1. A Society of men which hath always in it exteriour Consecration and Ordination of Ministers, preaching, bapti∣zing, and administring Sacraments must of necessity be always visible. But the Church of Christ is a society of men which hath always in it exteriour Consecration and Ordination of Ministere. Therefore the Church of Christ must of necessity be always visible. The Major is proved by evident reason, because those are all outward and sensible actions, which are inconsistent with an invisible society of actors. The Minor is proved by Scripture, Go ye, teaching all Nations, baptizing them, &c. And, Behold, I am with you all days, &c. St. Matth. 28. v. 20. He gave some Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, and other some Pastors and Doctors, to the consummation of the Saints, Ephes. 4. 11, 12.

Answ. THe Tenet and the Conclusion of the Argument differ, the Te∣net asserting what hath been, the Conclusion what of necessity must be; the Tenet having for its Subject the holy Catholick and Apostolick Church of God, the Conclusion the Church of Christ indefinite, and both Tenet and Conclusion is granted, but not in this Author's and other Romanists sense. It is granted, there hath been a Suc∣cession, but not a continued number of Bishops, Priests, and Laicks, succeed∣ing Page  63 one another in the profession of the same Faith, (meaning the now Ro∣man) from Christ and his Apostles to this time, which H. T. in the former Article makes the Definition of Succession. And visibility of each particular Church is granted, but not of the Catholick as Catholick, which as such is to be believed, not seen. And this visibility it is granted to be of some at some times, not in the same splendor or conspicuity at all times, nor to all persons. But Protestants deny it visible always to all in so glorious and conspicuous an estate, as Bellarmine asserts, when he saith in his Book de Eccles. Milit. cap. 2. That the Church is an Assembly of men so visible and palpable as is the Assembly of the People of Rome, or the Kingdom of France, or the Common-wealth of the Venetians: so that we might grant his Tenet and Conclusion, were it not that fraudulently there is more intended than is expressed, which is needfull to be discovered. For answer to it as it is the Major is granted, if it be under∣stood of visibility simply, but if meant of such a conspicuous visibility as the Romanists assert, it is to be denied. In the Minor it is to be observed, 1. That a distinction is made between exterior Consecration and Ordination, which I judge to be done, that thereby may be implied the distinction of Bishops (who are consecrated, not ordained) from Presbyters, (whom they ordain, not conse∣crate) to have been always in the Church of Christ, which is not right. 2. That it is asserted that the Church of Christ is a society of men, which hath always in it exteriour Consecration and Ordination of Ministers, which is, be∣cause he holds a true Church hath always such Ministers. But as I said be∣fore, that is not true, no not in the Church of Rome in the vacancy of the See, which hath been sometimes long, and therefore it is not necessary to the being of a true Church, that always the exterior Consecration and Ordination be continued, and if it may be intermitted, one, two, or ten years, and yet the Church a true Church, it may be an hundred; and therefore the Minor is not to be granted, if meant of exterior Consecration and Ordination of Bishops di∣stinct from Presbyters, and such a perpetuity as is without the least intermissi∣on, nor do any of the Texts prove it. For the Precept Matth. 28. 19, 20. proves onely it ought to be, not that it shall be; and the Promise, if it do prove that a Succession shall be, yet it doth not prove such a Succession as shall have ex∣terior Consecration and Ordination, but such assistance in Preaching and Ba∣ptizing as shall uphold and prosper them in that Work: nor is this assured to any one place, but indefinitely to any persons in any place where this Work shall be continued. And the other place Ephes 4. 11, 12. proves not a certain∣ty of the event, which is asserted in the Minor, but if the Gift be meant of Institution of what ou•ht to be, it notes onely a certainty of Duty, if of Do∣nation of Abilities it notes not an exterior Consecration and Ordination, but an act to be immediately from Christ himself, or by his Spirit, and so doth not prove a futurity of such Succession by outward Consecration and Ordina∣tion as H. T. brings it for.

Nevertheless this Author doth disadvantage his own party by this arg•ing. For, 1. by this arguing he plainly makes the marks of the Church by which it is visible, Preaching, Baptizing, and administring Sacraments, which doth by good consequence infer that the Protestants do rightly make the Preaching of the Word, and the administring of the Sacraments the notes of the visible Church; which will make well for the Protestants, by whom these are ob∣served; Page  64 but ill for the Ministers of the Roman Church, chiefly the Bishops of Rome, who neither preach, nor baptize, nor administer Sacraments, but do other acts of other kindes. Nor, to speak truth, is almost any of their Preach∣ing the Preaching of the Gospel, but the Rites of the Roman Church, extol∣ling the Virgin Mary, and other Saints excellency, little of the Gospel, or if any part of it, it is likely the History of the Gospel in an historical fashion, little of the mystery; but in stead thereof such Doctrines of humane satis∣factions, for sin, merit, of good works, are preached, as do overthrow the Gospel. And for Baptizing, though Bellarmine tells us, lib. 2. de bonis oper. in partic. cap. 17. that at Rome the old Custome is not abolished of Baptizing the Catechume∣ni at Easter, but among the Papists chiefly in the City of Rome there is no year in which many catechized persons are not baptized at Easter: yet the truth is, there is no right Baptism almost throughout the Churches under the Papacy, there being nothing but watering of Infants with some frivolous Ceremonies, no immersion or plunging into the Water after Profession of Faith, as was in the primitive times, and is the onely Baptism Christ appointed, Infant-sprinkling, perfusion, or dipping, being meer Innovations begun after the Apo∣stles ages, and being onely by unwritten tradition (as their own learned men confess) conveyed to the Church, not instituted by Christ himself. And for administring the Lords Supper, he that reades their Missals or Sees, their Mass, may easily discern, there is not that done by them which Christ appointed, but such a change there is in it from Christs institution, as that it cannot be termed▪ a Sacrament of Christ, but a meer ridiculous or abominable device of men, more like a Play than a religious service. 2. When they say that the Church hath always exterior Consecration and Ordination of Ministers, they necessa∣rily put themselves upon it, to prove that it hath been so in the Roman Church, which they can never prove to have been always in the Roman Bishops, much less in their Priests, the Records of their Consecrations and Ordinations be∣ing in many respects either none or very doubtfull, at best but humane testimo∣ny which is fallible, and if these were certain, yet their own Canons make ma∣ny things necessary to their Sacraments, specially that sottish conceit of the Trent Council, that the Minister of Sacraments must intend to do what the Church doth, without which there is a nullity in what is done; and yet it is im∣possible to be proved; and so many things according to their Canons nullifie their Ordinations, as Simony, and other irregularities, of which nevertheless their own Writers accuse a great number of their Bishops and Priests, and sometimes one Pope hath made void the Acts of another, and in despite hath cut off his fingers which did ordain Priests, as Platina relates in the life of Stephan the sixth concerning the usage of Pope Formosus; besides this the Ordination of their Priests is to sacrifice for quick and dead, which is no part of the Ministerial Office which Christ required, Matth. 28. 19, 20. which be∣ing considered, if this be the note whereby the true Church must be proved, no Church in the World hath less proof for its truth than the Roman; but the Exceptions will be so many against their exterior Ordination and Consecrati∣on, as will by their own Canons and arguings prove the Roman Church to be no true visible Church at all; and so this Argument will be retorted on H. T. Let us go on to his second Argument, onely taking notice that he useth the term [Ministers] which other Papists do deride in the Protestants.

SECT. II.

A Light, saith H. T. always shining to the World, and a City so seated on a Hill that it cannot be hid, must needs be always visible. But the Church of Christ is a Light always shining to the World, and a City so seated on a Hill, that it cannot be hid, therefore the Church must needs be always visible. The Major is manifest by the very terms. The Minor is proved by Scripture; The Mountain of the House of our Lord shall be prepared on the top of Moun∣tains, Isai 2. 2. You are the Light of the World, a City seated on a Hill can∣not be hid, St Matth. 5. 14. He hath put his Tabernacle (his Church) in the Sun, Psal. 18. 4.

Answ. THough the Conclusion might be granted in some sense, yet in the sense meant by the Romanists it is denied, and in the Argument the Minor is to be denied, and to the proof of it, it is denied that the Texts produced prove it. Not the first. For though the Prophecies, Is. 2. 2, 3. be meant of Christ and the times of the Messias, yet, whether by the Mountain be meant Mount Sion properly, or the Church, or Christ, or the Apostles; it is certain, that it is meant of that time, wherein the Gospel was at first preached, to which sense Hierome expounds it, and the exaltation of the mountain of the Lords house is in respect of the first promulging of the Gospel, (in respect of which, neither at first, nor now is Rome exalted above the Hills) and therefore it is not meant of every particular Church visible, nor of such conspicuity in government and outward appearance as the Romanists maintain. The second Text Matth. 5. 14. is particularly meant of the Apostles, and such Preachers of the Gospel as continued that Work with them, or after them, and doth not foretell what shall be, but declares what they were in existence or duty rather, and their conspiracy is in respect of the Preaching of the Gospel. But this is not spo∣ken of every particular, or the whole Church militant at all times, as if it were so visible, as that every Christian might know where to address themselves to them, and have resolution from them in their doubts. The other Text is less to the purpose, speaking of a Tabernacle for the Sun, not a Tabernacle in the Sun, the Suns Tabernacle, not Gods, put in the Heavens, (not on earth) as Hierom reades according to the Hebrew, although the Septuagint and Vulgar reade, as H. T. and Augustin in his allegorical way expound it of the Church. But it is frivolous upon Augustin's conceit in his Enarration on the Psalms to infer a Tenet from a place that hath quite another grammatical sense, which is onely argumentative.

As for the sayings of Fathers, the words of Irenaeus lib. 4. advers. Hoeres. cap. 45. are not, that every true Church of Christ hath such a continued Suc∣cession, and so visible, as that every Christian may discern where to repair to it, but onely in opposition to heretical Teachers tells us, God hath set other Teach∣ers in the Church, than those he there opposeth.

Page  66 Origen's words Hom. 3. on Matthew, shew what was in his time, not what must of necessity be, and are meant of brightness of doctrine or truth, not of outward glory in a conspicuous rule and state like some flourishing Empire.

Cyprian's words de unit. Eccles. are less to the purpose, being not concerning the visibility, but the unity of the Church, but in neither for the Romanists purpose. The words are thus, Cut off the River from the Fountain, and being cut off it will be dry; so also the Church cloathed with the light of the Lord spreads its beams through the whole World, yet it is one light, which is every where diffused, and yet the unity of the body not separated.

Chrysostom's words Hom. 3. on Isai 6. are, that the Church is more rooted than the Heaven, and then adds, let the Greeks learn the power of truth, how it is easier that the Sun should be extinguished, than that the Church should 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, that is not as H. T. renders it be obscured, but vanish away, as the words following shew, which are, Who had these things? He that preacheth hath founded, the Heaven and the Earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Whence it is manifest, that he there speaks not of the Churches visibility, but permanency as the Sun.

Augustin lib, 3. cont. Parmen. cap. 5. tom. 7. against the Donatists saith thus, Who therefore would not sit in the assembly of van••y, let him not become vain in the type of pride, seeking the Conventicls separate from the unity of the just of the whole world, which he cannot finde. But the just are through the whole City, which cannot be hid, because it is seated on a Mountain, that Mountain I say of Daniel, in whom that stone cut out without hands grew and filled the whole earth. And after, There is no security of unity but in the Church, de∣clared by the promises of God, which being seated, as was said, on a Mountain, cannot be hid: and therefore it is necessary that it be known to all parts of the earth. By which it is manifest, that in opposition to the Donatists, appropri∣ating the Church to their party, he asserts it to be manifest, not by its outward splendour, but its extension to all parts. The words l. 2. cont. Petilian. c. 104 are thus: Ye are not in the Mountains of Sion, because ye are not in the City seated on the Mountain, which hath this certain sign that it cannot be hid, therefore it is known to all Nations, but the part of Donatus is unknown to many Nati∣ons; therefore it is not that Church. It is evident he spake of the Church at that time, which was known or manifestly visible to all Nations, not from a potent Monarchy in one City, but its diffusion through all parts of the world.

SECT. III.

H. T. adds, Objections solved. Object. The Church is believed, therefore not seen. Answ. She is believed in the sense of her Doctrines, and to be guided to all truths by the Holy Ghost, but seen in her Pastours, Government, and Preaching; wherefore I deny the Consequence.

Page  67 I Reply, Though Protestants deny not the Church militant to be visible in the outward Government and Preaching of the Pastors, yet they deny that it is always so conspicuous as that it may be known to every Christian, as an As∣sembly of the People of Rome, or Common-wealth of Venice, to which all may resort for direction. Nor by this Argument do they prove that the Church militant is not visible, but that the Church in the Creeds Apostolical and Nicene, which is one Catholick and Apostolick, as such, is not visible, but in∣visible, being the Object of Faith, not of Sight: nevertheless the Answer takes not away the force of the Objection, if it had been alleged against the vi∣sibility of the Church militant. For the Church is believed, not as teaching, but as being, it is the existence of the Church, not the Doctrine of it that is believed, as even the Trent Catechism expounds it: now that being Catholick, that is according to the Catechism, consisting of all believers from Adam till now in all Nations, cannot be the object of sense, but of faith; and therefore the Catholick Church in the Creeds is the invisible of true Believers, not the meer visible now militant.

H. T. adds, Object. The Woman (the Church) fled into the Wilderness, Apoc. 12▪ 6. Answ. But is followed and persecuted by the Dragon, v. 17. there∣fore visible.

I reply, this Answer is ridiculous. For whereas Protestants hence prove, that at some times the Church is hid from men, this Authour saith, It was not hid from the Dragon, that is, the Devil, which is not in question. So that it appears he had nothing to answer this Inference, from the Womans flying into the Wilderness, and being hid, that sometimes the Church is so hidden as it were in a Wilderness, that though it be, yet it is not so visible or conspicuous as that men can discern it so as to repair to it, howbeit the Devil knows where they lurk.

Yet once more H. T. Object. The Church of the Predestinate is invisible. Answ. There is no such thing as a Church of the Predestinate. Christ's Church is the congregation of all true believers, as well Reprobate as predestinate. There is in his Floor both Wheat and Chaff, St. Matth. c. 3. and in his Field both Corn and Tares, which shall grow together till the Harvest (the Day of Judge∣ment) St. Matth. c. 13. The Predestinate are as visible as the Reprobate▪ It is true indeed, their Predestination is invisible, and so is also these mens Repro∣bation.

I reply, To salve their main Tenet of the Popes being Head of the Church of Christ, who is often so wicked as that, if the Church of Christ be determin∣ed to be of elect persons onely, many Popes cannot be termed Members, much less Heads of the Church, is this audacious Assertion invented, that there is no such thing as a Church of the Predestinate, contrary to express Scripture, which mentions the Church of the first-born written in Heaven, Heb. 12. 23. and the Church elected together with Peter, or those he wrote to, 1 Pet. 5. 13. and saith such things of the Church in many places, to wit, Ephes. 5. 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32. Ephes. 1. 22, 23, &c. as cannot agree to Reprobates, who cannot be said to be Christ's body, his fulness, to be loved, sanctified, whom he nourisheth, intends to present without spot, as he saith there of Christ's Church. He that desires more proof may reade Dr. John Rainold his fourth Conclusion, where he proves it fully, both from Scripture and Fathers, that the Page  68 holy Catholick Church which we believe is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen, which hath not been yet answered that I know. Nor do I see how the fourth Lateran Council could mean otherwise, which determined, as H. T. saith here, art. 1. pag. 30. that the universal Church of the faithfull is one out of which no man can be saved, which can be true onely of the Church of the Predestinate. As for what H. T. saith here, The Church of Christ is the con∣gregation of all true believers as well Reprobate as Predestinate, it supposeth true believers may be reprobate: but this is false, meaning it of the truth of being opposite to feigned, counterfeit, or in shew onely. For our Lord Christ hath said, John 5. 24. & John 3. 15, 16, 18, 36. that such as believe on him shall not perish, come not to condemnation, are passed from death to life, have ever∣lasting life. Nor do the Texts Matth. 3. 12. where the Floor is not Christ's Church, but the Jewish people, or Matth. 13. 30. where the Field is expresly interpreted vers 38. to be the World, not the Church, speak to the contrary. It is true, The Predestinate are as visible as the Reprobate, but they are not meerly visible believers as some Reprobates are, who profess faith, which they have not. But the true Church of Christ against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail, Matth. 16. 18. contains onely such believers as have that faith which is true, and that Election of God, which with their faith are invisible, and so are rightly denominated the invisible Church from that which is more excellent, and the Reprobate have not.