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Whether Erastus proveth validly the power of the Civill Magi∣strate in matters Ecclesiastick?
BEfore I proceed further, it is needfull to examine Erastus his do∣ctrine* 1.1 of the civill Magistrate.
Erastus. As there is a twofold governing, so of necessity there must be two supreame Governours. God is the governour of the inward man, the Magistrate of the outward man, it is absurd there should
be two supream Governours of the same Government, so as the one neither be a part of the other, nor Administer all in the name of the other.
Ans. 1. Because a man consisteth of a spirituall part, a conscience and soul, and of an externall visible part; in which he exerciseth visible and externall acts of worship; yet spirituall, another, as he is a civill Agent, therefore there is a necessity there be no supream externall Governours under the one supream Lord of Heaven and earth; one that teacheth and informeth the minde, and ruleth by the sword whole man, as he is a part of a civill society, in all his civil actions, and this is the Magistrate; another that governeth him, as he is a member of a spirituall and supernaturall society, and exerci∣seth externall spirituall actions, in reference to God & in the sub∣jection of his conscience to him, and this is either a Priest, Levite or Prophet in the Old Testament, or Pastor, Teacher or Elder in the New Testament: and it is absurd, that there should not be two Governors; one over man in relation to his conscience and walk∣ing with God, and his brethren as Members of a spirituall society, called a Pastor or Teacher; another in relation to his civill actions of Peace and justice to his brother, as he is a Member of a civill society, called a Magistrate.
2. It is an absurd thing, for Erastus to fancie God, and the* 1.2 Magistrate, two supream Governors, when the Magistrate is not supream, but a meer Minister and vassall subordinate to God, the only most high. 3. It is as absurd to imagine God hath given no Ru∣lers, Teachers, and guides to govern a man as he is a spirituall Agent obliged to worship God, and to be edified in the faith, but only the civill Magistrate; then hath Christ left no shepherd to his re∣deemed flock but the Civill Magistrate, and ascending on high he hath left no gifts, no Pastors and Teachers, for the gathering of the Saints to the end of the world, when we shall meet all in the unity of the Faith; but only the Magistrate contrary to Christs end, in as∣cending to heaven, Eph. 4. 11. Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 1, 2. and contra∣ry to Christs compassion to souls, who is moved, that his sheep want shepherds; for there souls, rather then Magistrates, Matth. 9. 36, 37, 38. therefore the opinion of Erastus is like the Divinity of Epicures or unchristian Moralists, who appoint Magi∣strates to Governe the externall man, but no Teachers to
take care of their souls, or to lead them to heaven.
Erastus. As there is one measure by which we measure things of* 1.3 divers natures, as cloath of linnen, of silke, of silver, of gold, and there is one weight by which we measure things weighable, though of most divers natures; so is there one visible dispensation and governing of all visible things, though there be some Lawes for the City, some for the Countrey, some for the Schooles, as there be no necessity of divers rulers, and Law-givers, to the City, to the Countrey, to the Schooles; so is there no necessity that there should be any other then the Magi∣strate, who should guide things civill and prophane, things of Schooles, and things sacred.
Ans. This man speaketh rather like a Morall, or a naturall Physitian, then a Divine; the argument were good, if men had no souls, for then they should not need any to watch for their souls, as the spirit of God saith they do, Heb. 13. 17. and he with one stroak, taketh away Pastors and Teachers, and maketh the King the onely Pastor and Teacher in all his Kingdomes. 2. We know similitudes, especially not warranted with Scripture, proveth no∣thing, and this may well conclude there should be no ruler at all, nor any Lawgiver on earth, but God only, and let every man do what seemes good in his owne eyes, for Gods will is the only mea∣sure and rule of all things. And 3. If all men were to be ruled the same way, it might have colour. But it is knowen, that all Chur∣ches, as members of a Common-wealth, are ruled one way, in giving to every man his own, & in not doing violence one to ano∣ther; But in keeping peace and policy, as all men do in all societies on earth, and so they have need of Magistrates. 2. Another way they are considered as Members of a society, called from the state of sinne, to Grace and Glory, and so they have no lesse need of tea∣chers for the guiding of their souls, Mat. 9. 36, 37, 38. Eph. 4. 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. Act. 8. 31. Heb. 13. 17. 1 Thes. 5. 12, 13. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Act. 20. 28, 29. Math. 28. 19, 20. Phil. 1. 1. and by name of the Elders of the Church, Act. 4. 5. 23. and 11. 3. and 14. 23. and 15. 2, 4, 6, 22, 23. and 16. 4. and 20. 28. and 21. 18. and 22. 5. Tit. 1. 5. and that the Magistrate should rule the house of God, is against the word.
Erastus. One Common-wealth can have but one supream Magi∣strate,* 1.4 a body with two heads is monstrous, therefore Papists almost by
this argument, doe appoint one Pope head of the Church. There can∣not be two powers of two swords, both supream and of equall power: But the Church power must be subject to the more excellent, the power of the Magistrate. But because he cannot do all by himselfe, he Gover∣neth* 1.5 the Schooles by Doctors, the Cities by inferiour judges, the Church by Pastors, and all according to right and justice, and the word of God, and that where the Magistrate and subjects are Christi∣ans; but where the Magistrate is of a false Religion, two different Governments are tollerable.
Ans. 1. This argument destro••eth all Aristocracy, Parliaments, and Senates, where many good men have equall power, and so the Common-wealth may not have 70. Heads and Rulers of equall power, which is against the Scripture, which commandeth subjecti∣on to every Civill ordinance of man, as lawfull, Rom. 13. 1, 2, 3. Tit. 3. 1, 2, 3. 1 Pet. 2. 13, 14. Deut. 1. 16. It maketh no Govern∣ment lawfull, but Popedome and Monarchy in both Church and state. 2. It is to beg the question, that there cannot be two su∣pream powers, both supream in their owne kinde, for they are both supream in their owne sphere: as Pastors dispense Sacraments and Word, without subjection to the Magistrate as they are Pastors, and Magistrates use the Sword without dependence on Pastors, and yet is there mutuall and reciprocall subjection of each to other in divers considerations: Pastors as subjects in a Civill relation, are subject to the Magistrate, as every soul on earth is, and Ma∣gistrates as they have souls and stand in need to be led to heaven, are under Pastors and Elders. For if they hear not the Church, and if they commit incest, they are to be cast out of the Church, Mat. 18. 1 Cor. 5. Rom. 16. 17. 1 Thes. 3. 14. 15. If they walk in∣ordinately, we are to eschew their company, if they despise the Mini∣sters of Christ, they despise him who sent them, Math. 10. 40. Luk. 10. 16. God respecteth not the persons of Kings, and we finding them not excepted, if the preachers of the Gospel be to all beleevers 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 over them in the Lord, 1 Thess. 5. 12. 1 Tim. 5. 17. call it authority, or no Authority, they have some oversight over the Christian Magistrate; and here be two supreams, two highest powers, one Ecclesiasticall, another Civill; nor should any deny Moses to be above Aaron, as the supream judge; Aaron not having the power of the sword, as Moses had, and Aaron must be above
Moses, in sacrificing, in burning incens••▪, in judging between the clean and the unclean, which Moses could not do. 2. The excellen∣cy of the Civill power in regard of earthly honour and eminency in the fifth Commandment, above the servants of God in the Ministry of Christs spirituall Kingdom, which is not of this world, we heartily acknowledge. 3. That the King Preacheth and dis∣penseth the Sacraments by Pastors, as by his servants, is wilde Di∣vinty: Pastors then must have Magistraticall Authority and power of the sword committed to them, as the Deputies and inferior judges of the Lords of the Gentiles, which Christ forbade his Dis∣ciples, Luk. 22. 25, 26, 27. For the servant must have some power committed to him from the principall cause in that wherein he is a servant. 4. What reason is there, that where the Magistrate is a Heathen, two Governments, and so two heads in one body should be? for then there is and must be a Church-Government, where the Magistrate is a Heathen, and that in the hands of the Church: if then the Magistrate turn Christian, must he spoile the Church of what was her due before?
Erastus. The Lord Jesus changed nothing in the New Testa∣ment* 1.6 of that most wise Government in the Iewish Church, now there all Government was in the hands of Moses: I say not, that the Magistrate might sacrifice, or do what was proper to the Priests, but he did dispose and order what was to be done by the Priests.
Ans. Yea, but Erastus saith, the Magistrate may dispense word and Sacraments in the New Testament, if he had leisure: Why might he not sacrifice in the Old Testament also? 2. Pastors do by their Doctrine and Discipline, order and regulate all callings in their Moralls of right and wrong, of just and unjust; yet is not the Pastor the only Governour in all externals. 3. If Christ chan∣ged nothing of the Iewish Government, we have all their exclu∣sion of men out of the Campe, their separating of the un∣clean, and their politick and Ceremoniall Lawes, which is un∣sound Divinity.
Erastus. Moses Ruled all before there was a Priesthood instituted.* 1.7 God, Exod. 4. Numb. 12. calleth Aaron to his office and maugurateth him by Moses; nor doth he command him to exercise a peculiar judge∣ment, when he declareth his office to him, and when Aaron dieth,
Moses substituteth Eleazar in his place. Ioshua c. 3, 4 teacheth the Priests what they should doe, and commanded them to circumcise Isra∣el: so did Samuel, David, Solomon, and in the time of the Macca∣bees it was so.
Ans. Moses was once a Prophet and Iudge both; Ergo, so it may be now, it followeth not, except Moses as a Magistrate did re∣veale what was the Priesthood: What Aaron and Eleazer his sonnes might doe, by as good reason Moses, David, Solomon, Io∣shua, as Magistrates wrote Canonick Scripture and prophecied. Then may Magistrates as Magistrates build new Temples typicall to God, give new Laws, write Canonick Scripture, as these men did by the Spirit of prophecy no doubt, not as Magistrates; for why, but they might sacrifice as Magistrates, and why should Moses ra∣ther have committed the Priesthood, and the service of the Taber∣nacle due to him as a Magistrate, so to Aaron and his sonnes, as it should be unlawfull to him as a King, and unlawfull to Vzziah to burn incense, and to sacrifice, and to doe the office of the Priest? If the Magistrate as the Magistrate doe all that the Priests are to doe as Priests, and that by a supream principle, and radicall pow∣er in him, he ought not to cast off that which is proper to him as a Magistrate, to take that which is lesse proper, he casteth the care and ruling of souls on the Priests, and reserveth the lesser part to himself, to rule the bodies of men with the Sword, all these are sufficiently answered before.
Erastus. The King of Persia, Ezra 7. appointed Iudges to judge the people and teach them, but there is no word of Excommunicati∣on, or any Ecclesiastick punishment, but of death, imprisonment, fines; nor did Nehemiah punish the false Prophets with any other pu∣nishment. Iosephus speaketh nothing of it, nor Antiochus.
Ans. I shew before that there is for••eiting, and separation from the Congregation, Ezra 10. 8. 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 he shall be se∣parated from the Church. 2. If the King of Persia appointed men to judge and teach the people, why should he deny any judica∣ture at all? 3. Where ever Iosephus speaketh of the judging of the Priests, as he doth antiq. l. 11. c. 7. ant. l. 11. c. 8. l. 12. c. 9. he hinteth at this.
Erastus. Christ dischargeth his Disciples to exercise dominion.* 1.8 Christ would not condemne the adulterous woman, nor judge between
the brethren, Luke 12. Paul calleth Ministers dispensators, stewards, Peter forbiddeth a dominion.
Ans. Let Erastus be mindfull of this himselfe, who yet saith, that the Magistrate may both judge, also (if he have time) dispence the Word and Sacraments; if then the Magistrate by his office may preach and dispense the Sacraments, who made him a judge and a Ruler? Will this sati••fie mens conscience; The Magistrate as the Magistrate may play the Minister; but the Minister may not play the Magistrate: Now as Erastus saith, the Minister in holy things, is his servant called by him; may not the Minister be called by him to the Bench also? E∣rastus; Eli and Samuel, were both Priests and Iudges, and so to E∣rastus they are not inconsistent. 2. Ministers ought not to usurpe the civill sword; Ergo, they have no power of governing by the sword of the Spirit, it followeth not, the contrary is evident, 1 Thes. 5. 12. 1. Tim. 5. 17. 1 Cor. 12. 28. Rom. 12. 7, 8.
Erastus. Peter Martyr saith, Com. 1 Sam. 8. Those that live wickedly, may be corrected by the Magistrate. But Papists give one civill Ecclesiastick power to the Pope, and another to the Magistrate, whereas the civill Magistrate is sufficient enough.
Ans. Pet. Martyr 1 Cor. 5. expresly asserteth Excommunicati∣on, and acknowledgeth a Presbyterie of Pastors and Seniors, or Elders, Peter Martyr condemneth the use of both swords in the Pope, and saith it is sufficient that the Magistrate have the Sword.* 1.9
Erastus. Christ saith, my Kingdom is not of this world, that is, it is not pollitick, externall, visible, for Christ reigneth in the world, but his Government is invisible, and spirituall in the Word, and the Spirit.
Ans. Christ denieth only that his Kingdome is of this World, in* 1.10 regard it is not holden up by the civill sword of men, or Magistrates, as Erastus doth dreame, who maketh the Magistrate with his club to be the onely Catholick and principall Ruler in all Christs courts; which Christ refuteth, when he saith, If my Kingdome were of this world, mine owne would fight for me. Now Erastus will have no weapon, but the Magistrates sword to hold out, and cast out all offenders out of Christs Kingdom; but it is false, that Christs Kingdom is not politicall, externall and visible; this is to deny that Christ hath a visible Church: Sure exhorting, re∣buking, censuring, withdrawing from the scandalous, excommuni∣cation, are visible externally, and in a politick spirituall way ex∣ercised
by Christ in his Ambassadors: for externall and spirituall are not opposed, nor are politicall and spirituall opposed, as Erastus dreameth, and therefore this is a non sequitur of Erastus: His Kingdom is not of this world; Ergo, it is not externall.
Erastus. When Pompeius invaded and possessed Iudea, and Gabi∣nius* 1.11 having overcome Alexander, had changed the state of Iudea, the Pharisees did reigne wholly at Ierusalem. The Kingly power was removed and Aristocracy set up, Ioseph. bel. Iud. l. 1. c. 6. Io∣seph. antiq. l. 14. c. 10. 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉: The Synedrie for the most part, had its owne autho∣rity vnder Hyrcanus, and under Archilaus it was more fully restored, as is cleer by the Evangelists and Iosephus. Claudius in the tenth year after Christs death, setteth forth an Edict, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉; Ioseph. Ant. lib. 19. Titus Vespasianus promised the same thing to them.
Ans. Will then Erastus have Christ, Mat. 18. to restore the power of the Sanedrim, in gaining a lost brother; that is to cite him be∣fore the Roman Iudges: But 1. the Romans made high Priests from yeere to yeere, did Christ acknowledge the Sanedrim to be a re∣stored Iudicature in this? 2. Say that the Sanedrim in sacris, in in the holy things of God, had its full power, the Romans not im∣peding them; hath any man a face to deny, but Pharisees corrup∣ted both Law, Gospell, Sanedrim and all, and doth Christ establish their most corrupt government; especially when they set themselves against the Messiah? Cesar or Pompeius could give the Sanedrim no more then it had before they were subdu∣ed; but before they were subdued, the Sanedrim was changed and corrupted. 3. This is to beg the question, to say they kept the power of the Sword: For 1. We utterly deny that by Gods Law they ever had any such power, and forsooth, because the High-Priests servant smote our Saviour on the face, and they scourged and imprisoned the Apostles; What then? therefore the Sanedrim had the Law of God for it, and Aaron and his sonnes might beat, scourge, imprison, and kill, as they killed Steven, without Law or warrant, (except the Law that they had from the Roman Empe∣rours, for which cause I judge their Sanedrim was then a mixed Judicature,) surely this is a vaine consequence. 4. It is like enough
Claudius and Tiberius both, gave them liberty of their own Reli∣gion, Ceremonies and customes at their pleasure, and that is much for us, the adversary so do reason from a corrupt, unjust and wic∣ked practice to infer a Law.
Erastus. I have solidly proved, there were not two distinct juris∣dictions;* 1.12 but that the Magistrate Governed all. I deny not that the Ma∣gistrate took counsell at those that were skilled in the Law. And I have proved that the Sanedrim in Christs time, when he spake these words, had the power of the sword, in things pertaining to Religion.
Ans. Let another man praise thee, solidity of the probation to most of Protestant Divines, is plain emptinesse. 2. That the Magi∣strate took advice of Divines and learned men skilled in the Law, is not like the first pattern of Moses, David, Solomon, who as* 1.13 Magistrates (saith Erastus) did rule all in the Church, gave the Law to Aaron his sons, directed and commanded the Prophets from the Lord, as nearest to him, what they should do, what Laws they should teach the people: Shew us one precept, practise, or pro∣mise in the word, where Moses, David, Solomon asked Counsell at Aaron, the Priests, Gad, Nathan, or the Prophets; saying, O sons of Aaron, O Prophets advise us Magistrates, what Laws we should command you, touching your office, your holy garments, your washing, your beasts clean and unclean, your l••per, your putting men out of the Camp, touching the forme, dimensions, structure, mate∣rials of the Arke, Tabernacle, Temple, &c. that we may know what to command you from the Lord; for we are nearer to the Lord, and have a more eminent place, as Church-Officers, then you who are but our Vicars, Deputies, and servants to be directed by us.
Now 1. Moses received all Laws immediatly from God, and never consulted with any man, either Aaron, Priest, or Prophet; David and Solomon had the forme of the Temple, given to them by the Lord in writing, and advised with none at all; & therefore received from God, and delivered to the Church, what they received of the Lord.
2. What warrant the Magistrates should advise with Ministers; what they should command-Ministers, to preach and do in their Ministery, if by vertue of their Office they command Ministers.
3. So like as Christ referreth men to the Civill sword on their bodies to gain their souls, which is the scope of Christ, Matth. 18.
Erastus l. 3. c. 1. Page 160. The pow∣er of the civill Ma∣gistrate.
Men have need of two sorts of Gover∣nours.
Magistracie and Mini∣stery, both supream in their on we kinde.
Pag. 160. 161. 162.
Erastus al∣loweth no Govern∣ment, but Popedome and Mo∣narchy.
p. 162. 163.
Pag. 164. 165. 167.
Page 171.
Page 173.
Christs Kingdome how not of this World.
Cap. 2. l. 3. 176, 177, 179.
Pag. 179.
Moses, Da∣vid, Solo∣mon, ap∣pointed to the Priests nothing in Gods wor∣ship as Kings.