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IN which he saith; Sinne was not before the sinning person had a being
Ans. If sin cannot be considered to be be∣fore we were borne, then when Christ suffe∣red he bare none of our sinnes; how then can we be saved; for that which is not, cannot be
borne; and how is it just to punish Christ for nothing; for so is that which is not, Isa. 53. 4, 5, 6.
We put a difference in the Covenant, and the performance of it.
Ans. So doe we; and when Christ dyed he performed the condition of the Covenant.
Heaven was then purchased, and we may a•• well say, we have that now, as pardon of sin hefor•• it be committed.
Ans. The Scripture saith, we are justified in his bloud, and that he hath washed us from our sinnes in his own bloud: but the SS••rip••ture doth not say, we have heaven in his bloud and are glorified in his bloud; therefore th•• Reason is not the same.
Ans. If Christ satisfied onely for the sinne past before his death, or onely those we hav•• committed, who shall satisfie for the rest w•• shall hereafter commit: the Scripture saith•• he hath forgiven us all our trespasses, pas•• present, and to come, is all, lesse is not a•• How past; what before Christ suffered, wh•• or what satisfied for sinnes since committed•• if past, before we beleeve, what satisfieth 〈◊〉〈◊〉 purgeth us after conversion; will our work•• doe it?
We put a difference between the salve in t•• Surgeons box, and the healing of the wound.
Ans. So doe we; yet say, His stripes healed 〈◊〉〈◊〉
Some whose sinnes Christ 〈◊〉〈◊〉 are 〈◊〉〈◊〉 unwash∣ed, Zach. 13. 1.
Ans. Zach. 13. 1. was a prophesie of Christ▪ who by his death washed us cleane in his own bloud, Rev. 1. 5.
Ans. The question is not when Christ gives it, nor when we receive it, but when sin was destroyed, and washed away, and we made just: if there were not remission of sinnes in Christ for us before we beleeve, how could it be given us afterward?
Ans. The word pardon is not in the Text; the word debts is to be understood betwixt man and man: first, for we pray to be forgi∣ven as we forgive, we forgive not perfectly; will an imperfect forgivenesse of our sinnes from God be sufficient for us? Secondly, Be∣cause Gods forgiving us our sinnes against him is not on that condition, if we forgive others, as this is; see Mark. 11. 25, 26. Luk. 17. 3. 2 Cor 2. 7. And as for the forgivenesse of sin in 1 Joh. 1▪ 9. is to be understood for the ma∣nifestation of forgivenesse, the assurance and injoyment of it in the conscience: its usuall in Scripture to put the cause for the effect, and the effect for the cause, Pro. 8. 36. Its so to be understood, because there is nothing of pardon obtaineable, but the manifestation of it, therefore not to be prayed for since Christs
death, all that is to be done is onely to de∣clare its done, and for whom its done; for Christ will dye no more, its in vaine to pray for the pardon of that sin which was not wash∣ed away in his bloud, Heb. 10. 18. 2 Cor 5. 19. It is no mocking of God, to pray to God to manifest to us what he hath done for us; as, David, Psal. 51. 9. 12.
I grant Christ hath borne our sinnes, there is a difference betwixt Christs bearing them, and gi∣ving us pardon for them.
Ans. If Christ hath borne them, and satis∣fied for them, seeing God is satisfied, now we know it, we are satisfied, in that God hath not any thing to lay to our charge, Rom. 8▪ 33.
Ans. Christ by his death did save us, accor∣ding to his purpose, before the world: marke the words, His purpose to save us was before the world: He saith not that we were saved before the world; He saved us by his death, so that its said, He hath saved us, 2 Tim. 1. 9. see Titus 3. 5. Joh. 3. 36. & 5. 24. Col. 2. 10. Eph. 1. 3. & 2. 5. 8. Heb. 10. 14. 1 Joh. 5. 11, 12, Phil. 3. 12. Rom. 8. 24. We have all in Christ, Rom. 8. 23. We wait for the adoption; yet we are now the Sonnes of God, 1 Joh. 3. 2. and our Re∣demption, Eph. 1. 4. Yet by Christ we are re∣deemed, Luk 1. 68. We have redemption in him, Col. 1. 14. for Eph. 1. 3. In our selves imper∣fect, there is no perfection in us, nor in this life.
Heb. 10. 10. Proves that by one act, Christs death, God was satisfied.
Ans. Its enough, seeing God is satisfied, we are satisfied, though others cavell, and be un∣satisfied.
Forgivenesse of sinne, conveyed to us by the Spi∣rit, is called pardon.
Ans. It appeares from Isa. 40. 1, 2. That their sinnes were pardoned before it was de∣clared unto them; God cals it pardon, yet they knew it not, nor had it in their consciences; Comfort ye my people; tell her that her iniquity is pardoned.
2. Pardon of sinne, or justification in the conscience, is not justification is selfe, but one∣ly the knowledge of it; Justification depends not upon our assurance of it, or knowledge of it, but upon Christ, Isa. 45. 25. It consists in taking away sinne, that which is in the con∣science is the knowledge of it, and comfort of it.
1. That pardon of sin or justification con∣sists not in the declaring of it, nor receiving of it; for if to declare one to be just, makes him so, then he was not so before, God and wisdome are said to be justified by men, Mat. 11. 19. Luk. 7. 35. Rom. 3. 3, 4. did it make him so?
2. God by his Spirit declareth a soule to be just and righteous, but if he were not made so by Christ before, it will follow, he justified
the wicked, which is abomination, Pro. 17. 15. They are just, or wicked, guilty persons or not guilty, he saith, he will by no meanes cleare the guilty, Exod 34. 7. Deut. 25. 1. Therefore they that are righteous before, God will de∣clare them to be so: God will not have men to declare any to be just and righteous, unlesse they appeare to be so: The Elect are made just by Christ, therefore they appeare so to God, and in his time he declares it.
3. If to declare one to be just, could make him so, it were good to doe it; for its good to make evill good: if the wicked and their actions were to be declared to be just, yet would they remaine wicked and sinfull still.
1. Neither is Justification a taking sin out of the conscience, if it were, faith justifieth not, nor doth it take sin out of the conscience, nor assure the conscience that he is a childe of God, for that is the worke of the holy Spirit of God.
2. A man may feare the Lord, and obey Christ, and yet walke in darknesse, and see no light, and yet God is his God, Isa 50. 10, 11. If he be not a beleever, how doth it appeare that God is his God: If sin be taken out of his conscience, & he assured that God is his God, how doth he walke in darknesse, and see no light? to see all Christ hath done to be for us, and sin taken out of the conscience, which is the fruit of the former, is a great light.
3. If the knowledge that a man is a belee∣ver takes away sin, then faith takes it not a∣way; for it is one thing to beleeve, and ano∣ther to know I beleeve; as it is one thing to see, and another to know I see: the latter is by a reflection: by this reason it will follow, that nothing justifieth, but the taking sin out of the conscience, which is assurance; and
4. If assurance be justification, then a be∣leever may be an unjustified man, because he may want assurances, and be so clouded and deserted, that he may not injoy the assurance of pardon, but very much doubt whether his sinnes be pardoned or no••: thus it was with Heman, Psal. 88. and many other beleevers.
5. If justification consists in taking sin out of the conscience, it will follow, that if con∣science accuse, he is an unjustified man, and so be a justified and unjustified man in ten mi∣nutes; for idle thoughts and words are sins, and conscience will accuse for them, and they may lie heavy upon the conscience.
6. Also by this reason it will follow, that none are converted, nor have faith untill they have assurance they appeare to be in their sinnes; no faith but assurance, yet assurance is no faith at all, for they are two things, Joh. 6. 68, 69.
7. In placing pardon and Justification one∣ly in the conscience, many of the children of God, who injoy not assurance, but walke in
darknesse, in that respect are concluded to be in sin and unjustified, which is not onely un∣comfortable, but contrary to the Scriptures, and the Saints experience, its an error, there∣fore to affirme that men must beleeve, and be assured of the remission of sinne, to the end they may be remitted.
Heb. 10. 14. By Perfect, is not meant pardon of sin, they were sins, and after washed, 1 Cor. 8.
Ans. What then doth it meane, is not he that is perfect without fault? did not Christ by himselfe purge our sinnes, Heb. 1. 3. Was it not enough, and to purpose?
They alledge 1 Joh. 3. 9. & 5. 18. Whosoe∣ver is horne of God sinneth not, &c.
Ans. Its not I but sin that dwelleth in me, Rom. 7. 20. If sinne and a beleever be one, how can he say, its not I, therefore I and sin are two things: we say, Whosoever is borne of God sinneth not, and we doe sinne, and have sin, if this be a contradiction, you know where we had it.
O but, say they, Gods people cannot sinne in Gods account.
Ans. We neither say so, nor thinke so, but thinke and say the contrary; beleevers sinne, and they see it, therefore God much more, and counts it as it is, sin: also we say, there is no condemnation to be inflicted on the Elect for their sinne, Rom. 8. 1. 33.
Your doctrine causeth men not to feele the sense
of sinne, and to cry to God for pardon, nor to know the sweetnesse of pardon.
Ans. If by sense of sinne you meane the horrour and terrour of it, we desire not such a sense of sinne, nor wish it you, nor doe we fetch our comfort from our sense of sinne, or teares, or crying, nor our best workes, but onely and alone from the love of God in the death of Christ; we have made a Christ of our workes, teares and crying long enough.