A short ansvver to A. S. alias Adam Stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren. Together with certaine difficult questions easily answered; all which A. Stewart is desired to consider of, without replying, unlesse it be to purpose. A. Steuart [sic] in his second part of his duply to the two brethren. page 166. The civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox, and tollerate a new sect, (hee meanes independencie, and may as well say Presbytery) unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys, or some other waye, so to doe.

A short Answer to A. S. alias Adam Stewarts second part of his overgrown Duply to the two Brethren.

SIr;

Had you concealed your selfe under the two first letters of your name, all the A. S'es in Towne and Country would never have beene able to cleare themselves; for what you make but words of; how∣ever, I may not adde a tittle in commendation of you for Preamble to this Pamphlet, as you tell us (and is no more then requisite to justifie your own Epistle) is ordinary with writers in dedication of their bookes, least I bee put to a more shamefull recantation then A. S. was, and that for nothing but what charitie, as himselfe confesses, induced him to acknowledge in behalfe of the Apologists. Give mee leave then to observe first, that pag. 21. 23. you say Idolatry is a sin against the second Commandment. Juris naturalis & perpetui; insinuating that the power and duty of punishing both Idolatrie and Heresie is such also: If so; then it obliges all Nations of the world, and consequently supposes them capable to judge of all manner of Idolatrie and Heresie, which we see to bee notoriously false, and that, besides the confounding Ecclesi∣asticall with Civil power, whilest one State punishes this or that for Heresie, it cannot possibly bee otherwise, (since they are not onely different but diametrically opposite in profession) but that another must canonize it for a sacred truth: secondly if States and Powers must punish Hereticks, they are bound to punish those for such onely, who in their owne judgements are such: and if you will engage States in punishing of Hereticks, and they punish onely such as they find themselves obliged to punish in their own consciences and understand∣ings, How can you according to your doctrine, blame them for pu∣nishing Gods dearest children instead of Hereticks, since they tooke

them to bee Hereticks, and thought they had done God and you good service to punish them?

If wee may not suffer Hereticks to live amongst us; then is the Parliament to blame for suffering German, French, Spanish, and Portugal Papists or Dutch Brownists and Anabaptists to live here amonst us, though as Marchants, onely for a time; since their marchandizing gives them greater advantage of working people to their opinions by the respective civil conveniences and benefits, which they bring both to the whole Nation in generall, and to some in particular; nay, the very Ambassadours of what States or Potentates soever of different reli∣gions, ought not to bee permitted to reside Ledgers amongst us under any pretence, if this doctrine bee Evangelicall: So likewise may not wee under pretext of marchandize, live in Turkish Popish Lutheran or other Countreys differing from us in religion, travel into such parts for fashion sake as is usuall, nor keepe Ambassadours there, nor bee by forrain States permitted to remain amongst them, if we would, or on any termes joine with such in wedlock; Man may by no meanes dispence herewith, if the command for punishing herecie and schisme bee natu∣rall and perpetuall as is pretended &c.

Pag. 29. You quote out of Deut. 17. 12. The man that doth presum∣ptuously and will not hearken unto the Priest, or unto the Iudge, even that man shall dye; aleadging, that there is the sa••e reason for the Ministers of the New Testament &c. But that wee may clearely see what dangerous consequences would follow hereupon, it may bee best to returne back unto the place in Deut. 17. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. The text sayes; If there arise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement between bloud and bloud, be∣tween plea and plea, and between stroake and stroake, being matters of contro∣versy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise and get thee up into the place which the Lord thy God shall chuse: And thou shalt come unto the Priests and Levites, and unto the Iudge which shall be in those dayes and enquire, and they shall show the sentence of iudgement: And thou shalt doe according to the sentence which they of that place (which the Lord shall chuse) shall shew thee, and thou shalt observe to doe according to all that they enforme thee: According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the iudg∣ments which they shall tell thee, thou shalt doe: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall sh••w thee to the right hand nor to the left: then fol∣lows

how the man that will do presumptuously and will not hearken unto the Priest (that standeth to minister there before ••••y Lord thy God) or unto the iudg, even that man shall dye and then shalt put away the evil from Israel: And all the people shall ••eare, and feare, and doe no more presumptuously: To let passe all other exceptions to AS. his misapplication of this text which was directed peculiarly to the Iewes, and cannot concern any other people except Papists who interpret Rome to bee the place spoken of, verse 18. which God did chuse, and the Pope to bee sole supreme infallible Judge, Priest and Levite of these dayes to bee enquired after in matter of such difficulty and moment:

If this law bee of naturall and perpetual obligation, as is insinuated by saying; there is the same reasons for the Ministers of the Gospel, it will follow, that upon all matter of difference whether for blood, plea, or controversie verse 8. though any people, even Gods owne, bee never so uniust∣ly sentenced, ty••a••••i••ally enslaved, and most Antichristianly persecuted; they must by no meanes decline such sentence all the dayes of their life, least they bee thought to do presumptuously and so be put to death:

What if a good number of the Great Turkes subjects should have their understandings enlightned to see the captivity and bondage they are brought into? What if God should open the eyes of Papists in Spaine, Italy, and France▪ to see the spirituall fornication they are ravished into, and each of these Nations in a submissive Godly manner humbly im∣plore their Princes both for all common priviledges of Nature, and Christian Liberties of the Gospel; If the respective Priests and Iudges instead of redressing their just grievances shall say as Pharaoh did, Exod. 5. 8. 9. 17. T▪ is idlenesse which makes them seeke for lawfull priviled∣ges and Christian liberties, commanding their Egyption task-masters to encrease both their Civil and spiritual slavery; must they not according to AS. his divinity and pollicy still suffer themselves and their poste∣rity to continue Turkish bond-slaves and Antichristian Idolaters, lest they be judged to do presumptuously and so be put to death? Can AS. avoyd this consequence? Will the Priests Levites and Judges appoin∣ted in these times and Countries unto which AS. binds them over re∣medilesse, give other sentence? Deut. 17. 9. Surely if the case bee so, wee might well desire that God would make us Jewes to whom as I said those laws were given; or send us Christian laws to govern us withall.

Tell me a little; when Jereboam set up two calves of gold in Dan and Bethel, crying out behould your Gods O Israel, which brought you up out of the land of Egypt: 1. King. 12. 28. 29. 30. &c. doe you not think hee did conjure the people not to go up so farre unto Ierusalem to sacrifice, alleadging from your text in Deut. 17. 8. 9. 12. that it was the sentence of the Priest and Judges it should bee so, from which they might no whitt decline, lest they were found to do presumptuously? Doubtlesse his plea was this; from hence hee enforced his command∣ment for the peoples joyning with him in worshipping his Gods, his Calves; and had as good a warrant for it then, as AS. has now to say, there is the same reason for the Presbyterian Ministers of the Gospel to legitimate their own inventions, their Idolatry, The 12. and 13. Chapters of the first of the Kings are worth reading, that beholding their own, in Iereboams sinnes, and calling to minde Gods judgments on him, they may in time repent, lest a worse thing befall them.

But wheras you would oblidge us unrepealably to stand to whatsoe∣ver your Presbyterie degree concerning us, by sacriledgiously produ∣cing and blasphemously applying those reasons and effects which were only appliable at such a time, and to such a people as God was pleased to discover doubtfull cases to, as by Oracle in the mouth of the High Priest, chiefe Judge, or Levites; I may not forbeare to tell you that your Presbiterians are now noe better Southsayers then their neigh∣bours, they must either confesse to be of the same Royall Priesthood with their brethren in the masse 1. Pet. 2. 9. and so pretend no more than o∣thers, or else be out of it, and so be Baals Priests, if any.

But that wee may clearely understand the full ground, whereupon God required obedience from the people unto the sentence of the Priests Judges and Levites, as also a commensurate reason, why the people might not onely without scruple, but with full and entire satisfaction yeeld such obedience, as was expected from them, it may bee exceed∣ing requisite to make search into Gods originall proceedings, as well be∣fore, as after, that hee imposed his commands upon the Jewes in this be∣halfe.

First, God calls upon Moses saying, that hee would send him unto Pharaoh to bring his Israel out of Egypt. Exod. 3. 10. Moses excuseth himselfe unto the Lord, saying, they would not beleave him nor hearken 〈◊〉〈◊〉

him, alledging, that the Lord had not appeared unto him. chap. 4, 1. Here∣upon the Lord furnished him with miracles from verse. 3. to 9. and 17. 21. ordering him to take Aaron unto his assistance, saying, that he would bee with both their mouthes and teach them what they should say. verse, 12. 15. that Aaron should put upon his heart the breast-plate of Judge∣ment wherin was Vrim and Thuminim, that he should beare the judge∣ment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually Exod. 28. 30. Lev. 8. 8. according whereunto Iethro (prophetically no doubt) counselled Moses his Sonne in Law not to ware out himselfe with continuall attendance of the people from morning untill evening to enquire for them of God, but that hee would provide able men out of all the people, who might judge of all smaller matters themselves, and bring the greater unto Moses, who was to bee for the people to God∣ward, and bring the causes unto God. Exod. 18. from verse, 8. 13. to 22. And when Moses was to bee gathered to his people, the Lord requi∣red him to lay his hands on Joshua, in whom was the spirit, that hee might bee enabled to goe in and out before the people, and stand before the Priest who should aske counsell for them in all doubtfull matters. Numb. 27. 13. 17. 18. 21.

The Priests and Iudges being thus miraculously qualified, God com∣manded the people in all streights and controversies of difficulty to have recourse unto them for sentence or direction; according whereunto they were required to yeeld absolute obedience without gain-saying or murmuring, lest they were put to death as those that did presumptu∣ously, Deut. 17. 8. to 13. and 19. 7. 2. ch. 19. 11. 1. Sam. 9. 9. 2. Sam▪ 24. 11. 1, King. 14. 3. 2. King. 8. 8. with diverse others: and well they did deserve it doubtlesse, when they might see such infallible evidence in these Ministeres of the Lord, that it was his divine pleasure it should be so, and that for their advantage too▪ The children of Israel there∣fore had recourse unto them upon all occasion, and the Lord kept good correspondence with them, not answering them by amphibologies, doubtfull and delusive Oracles, but by discovering to them, his will his purposes and intentions about whatsoever they enquired of him 1. Sam 22. 13. 14. 15. Jer. 23. 37. Amos 3. 7. Judg. 1. 1. and 20. 18 So on the contrary, when they tooke in hand an enterprise without ask¦ing his counsell and advice, we may observe it did not thrive with them,

it proved otherwise than they desired, as when Joshua made league with the Gibeonites Joshua 9. 14.

And now not to send you againe to the Jewes, though you will have much a doe to finde an other Nation to which you may apply your text of Deut. 17. 8. 9. in which the sentence spoken of, must either bee fal∣lible, or infallible; if fallible, then it followes that God required the people to hearken, and bee Subject unto such sentences as might bee sinfull; such as they apprehended to be unjust and sinfull; such as were in themselves absolutely sinfull, (for all these cases might possibly have hapned upon such a supposition) which were blasphemy to imagine: If the sentence bee to bee presumed infallible, then questionlesse God might very justly require the people to bee subject to it and impose a law unalterable after the manner of the Meades and Persians, that such as would not harken to it, might bee condemned to dye, as one that did presumptuously:

Doe but prevaile then with your Presbyters, in cortesie, to disco∣ver to us some gleanings of their Prophetick spirit; or let us see what signes and wonders God is pleased to do by their mediation, more then by other mens; and then whosoever will not yeeld a proportionable honour and obedience to them, for my part, let Artaxarxes his decree be put in execution against him, whether it be to imprisonment▪ confiscation of goods, banishment, or death: Ezra. 7. 26. In the mean time if there bee any thing of Godlinesse, or understanding of a man in you, dispence with such as cannot make Idolls, fall downe and worship them.

Pag. 30▪ sayes the Civil Magistrate is Subiect in a Spirituall way unto the Church, and that the Church is subiect to the Civill Magistrate in a Ci∣vill way: But what if these different Judicatiories will not bee subject to each other in their respective spher's? What if the Civill Magistrate will not learne Gods will by the Ministers of the Church? as AS. sayes hee must.

Pag. 30. What if hee become Heretical, Schismaticall •• must he•• not bee proceeded against by the utmost of Church censures, to wit, excommunication? And if hee bee not worthy to remaine in the Church; must hee not by AS. his doctrine bee turned out, or cut off from the Civill State? But some perhaps will be so Court affected as to say, If the Magistrate will be so, who can help it▪ w•••• must suffer

what we cannot remedie: 'Tis true we must; but pag, 166. you say that whatsoever the Ecclesiasticall Senate or Presbyterie is bound not to tole∣rate but must suppresse in the Church; that, the Civill Magistrate or Senate it bound not to tolerate, but must suppresse in the State, since he is a nurse of the State, and keeper of the two Tables: and since whatsoever power the Ci∣vill Magistrates have, is derived from the people; Who sayes there is no remedie against a Magistrate thus offending? Are not both Hou∣ses of Parliament, are not millions of the people enough to do justice in such a case?

But what if the Civill Magistrate be without, not of the Church? can you not with Paul be contented that God should judge him? 1 Cor. 5 13. If you say 'tis now too late to make such a querie, and that he was admitted into the Church by baptisme so long since, will he not, think you, repent his Baptisme, and co•••• such little thanks as promised sub∣mission for him unto the Church without his order and consent? Nay, will he not plead non-age? you know there are many good lawes pro∣vided for relieving of the Pupillage in money matters; Having then thus m••••acled the Civil Magistrate whilst he was in swadling cloutes, you say he must now be subject to the Church; and that if he be once turn'd out of the Church, he must likewise be turn'd out of the Civil State▪ Is not this the Popish doctrin of l••••••ing Subjects from their obedience to Prince or Parliament? Are we thus leap't out of the Popish frying-pan into the midst of Presbyterian firebrands? But, I dare say, you•••••• stagger, & deny the words, beeing laid unto your charge; the truth is, I find by this dis∣course, that you haue a trecherous memory, which hath led you into such a company of unreconcileable contradictions, far worse than many theeves and harlots, but if your heart or understanding had been better than your memory, this doctrin had never issued: Turn then to p••. 166▪ where you say that whatsoever the Presbytery may not tolerate in the Church, the Civil Magistrate must not tolerate in the State; then turn to p. 179 where you say that al power is Originally in the people, which makes them the su∣premest Magistrate of al, above both King & Parliament; as King & Par∣liament are above other inferiour and subordinate Magistrates▪ Now if you know how to spel & put these together, this Popish doctrin besides others will clearly arise from thence, to wit; that if Primes and Ma∣gistrates become Hereticks, they may be excommunicated; if excommunicated,

the subjects are freed from their obedience to them; and the people which ha∣ving al power in themselves originally, become the supremest Magistrate of al, are bound to cut them off from the Civill State, whether they be Kings or Parliaments. But let us beware of such Infernal tenets, according unto which there would be found no safety, neither for Prince nor Par∣liament; but each of them, and everie body else, all alike, be forced to be of whatsoever religion shall by most voyces in a Consistorie or Sy∣nod, be thought to be the true one (which is too great a hazard) or else be deemed to doe presumptuously, and so loose their lives: But ch. 3. you say, if the Church be corrupt, and the Church Officers negligent in their charge, and will not reforme it, the Civill Magistrate may command, yea, com∣pell them to do it; or if they will not, he may extraordinarily do it himselfe▪ Good now; who shall here reach the Civil Magistrate whether the Church be corruptor no? At what time the Church Officers be neg∣ligent in their charge, not willing to reforme; and when they oppresse any man with Ecclesiasticall censures? If you say the Civil Magistrate himselfe may see it by bringing them to the rule of Gods word; do you not contradict your selfe in page 30. and elsewhere saying, the Civil Magistrate must learn Gods will by the Ministers who are Gods Ambas∣sadours sent unto him? is it possible to reconcile the Civil Magistrate unto the spirituall office-bearers in such a case as this? nay, is it ever possible for AS. to make his atonement with this present Assembly for frustrating so many yeares endeavours as they are like to make of it, in saying the Civil Magistrate hath power not to admit the true Church, to re∣ject it, yea, when it is received or approved, and confirmed by his secular and Civil authority, to reject it and exile it Ibid? which yet is true enough; but do you think the Synod would have taken soe great paines, and our Scotch brethren have sacrificed so much of their own blood, if even at best it should have been so hazardous whether ever their Presbyterian discipline should be received or no; or when received▪ rest in ••uch day∣ly danger to bee turned out againe with shame? Is it not an ea••••y mat∣ter for the Civil Magistrate to say, these Presbyterian Churches are growne corrupt, their way of government was never Apostolical and good, they▪ Tyrannize over their brethren insted of feeding them▪ aim∣ing at no Reformation soe much as to get themselves into the fattest, Benifices, and so banish them into America or some worse place? Woe

would it have beene for any Independent to have beene knowne to publish such Theologie such Heresie:

Page 47. You say How be it the Church compell men not by externall vi••∣l••••ce to subscribe contrary to their judgements, yet the Civil Magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell you to subscribe or to be gon &c. The Church you say compels not externally, but the Civil Magistrate may: But whence hath the Civil Magistrate this power in Church affaires? or why may not the Church use the Civil externall armes in Church matters, rather then the Civil Magistrate should e••terpose with his owne weapons in Church affaires? Is it not all one, think wee, in the sight of God, for Church-men, Church Officers themselves to hang such a one whom they deeme a Heretick, as to set a crosse a gallowes, a marke upon him, out of a tacit compact with the Civil Magistrate to hang him whensoe∣ver, or wheresoever He should meet with him? If a combination of a∣ny people should thus compasse the death of any man, would they not all equally bee found guiltie? shall a politick reservation of Po∣pish Canon or Civil law to keepe the Clergie from the peoples odium, thus delud all Christians to the end of the world? may Church-men connive▪ approve, teach, and applaud the Civil Magistrate in punishing whosoever they suppose to be Hereticks by imprisonment or death; and not as innocently as Christianly bee executioners themselves? Perhaps they will say they have no authority nor call to become executioners, to banish▪ imprison or put to death (and yet they have as good a call as to approve it in the Civil Magistrate;) but this is not the poynt wee stand upon: What if a Towne or Principality were giuen unto a com∣pany of Presbyterian Clergie-men? (I cannot think they will refuse it) would they in such a case imprison banish or cause Hereticks to die in this their Principality? If they say (as the Pope in the same case▪ as Pi∣late when he crucifide Iesus▪ and Bishop B••nner whilst he made so ma∣ny Protestane Martyrs) they may not wash their hands in the blood of Hereticks; I reply neither in the blood of Civil delinquents by the selfe same principle of theirs▪ If they referre such judicature and executing of Spirituall or Civil Offenders unto Laymen to be their deputies within this Principality of theirs; I answere that this is but a Popish eua••ion; and such blood being shed by their authority or approbation; must be accounted for by them▪ as if they themselves had

sat upon the Bench, passed sentence, and beene executioners: If He∣reticks were punishable by death as murderers and Traitors, I know no cause but that Clergie-men▪ if neede were, might as actually assist at execution of the one, as of the other: But if any man should expect my opinion of what these Presbyterian Clergie-men may doe upon the proffer of such a Principality; I confesse the refusall thereof might seem a verie great degree of Evangelicall perfection, and the excessive care and travel which is required to govern it, though by a substitute, are al∣together inconsistent with the ministerie of the Gospel; but to inter∣pret the passing sentence and execution of death by such Deputies or their Officers, to be so intirely the peculiar acts of such Deputies only, as that the said Presbyterian Clergie-men from whom the jurisdiction is derived, had not even as great a share therein▪ as if they had beene present upon the bench, is a meere Popish invention and delusion.

Our Saviour and his Apostles did neither tell the Magistrates that then were, that it concerned them so much more to become Christians that they might compel their Subjects to be so too; nor yet gave the Christians instructions, or left upon record any such order or warrant▪ that when ever the Magistrate did become Christian they might con∣straine the people to Christianity &c.

But in the same Pag. 74. you graunt these Spiritual Delinquents must be first sufficiently convinced, alleadging that after a sufficient conviction, it is, morally, and should be supposed that they know the truth; or should know it; or if they know it not, that nothing can have bl••dered them, but their owne pertinaciousnes, which cannot excuse, but rather aggravates their ••in: But what, I pray, or how much do you call sufficiently convinced? How can any one do otherwise, than yeeld unto whatsoever you have con∣vinced him of▪ How can you bee infallibly assured that a man ••s suffi∣ciently convinced, if he himselfe denyes it? How know you which is Gods ••••oure for convincing of a man? May not you likewise possibly in∣terpret a dulnesse of apprehension in him, or your owne want of truly and well informing him, to bee his obstinate wilfull rejecting of the truth▪ Are there not above 24 degrees of capacity and understanding between some men, and shall such whom God and Nature have made more dull or lesse ingenious in judging of Presbyterian Discipline or Doctrin be condemned to banishment or death for these defects of Na∣ture,

beleeving, or discoursing about matters of beleefe, or but opinion only? Such you say the Civil Magistrate may compel to subscribe, [against their conscience] or to bee gon: But who gives the Civil Magistrate this authoritie▪ Or how comes hee to know or understand them to bee Hereticks? The Presbyterian Clergie-men, I hope, will be no more informers than executioners; I am sure in most (of such as are aleadged to bee) Christian Countryes, the Informer is counted more in∣famous than the Executioner, because the one does all the busines for the most part in darknesse and under board; whereas the other exposes his actions to the publick view▪

But why may not Church Officers themselves as well hang or cut the throat of such a Heretick, whom they have prepared and designed for the shambles of the Civil Magistrats execution, by their excommu∣nicating of him? If the putting him to death were just, they need not use any Machivillian Stratagem to prevent the peoples censuring them of cruelty, or make so nice to ••owle their fingers with the blood of such as they put to death deservedly: The Levites when Moses required them everie man to kill his Son, his brother, companion, and his neigh∣bour, were not so scrupulous Exod. 32 27. 28. 29. And why may not the Civil Magistrate as well excommunicate, as banish or otherwise punish any Hereticks? Doe not all punishments inflicted for spiritual offences, equally become spiritual? Or is it not necessary they should be spiritual to work a Spiritual effect? doubtlesse they bee, or ought to be so; and if hanging of a spiritual offender bee as lawfull as excom∣municating of him, surely, both the Civil Magistrate, and the Pres∣byterian Church Officers may execute him, both alike.

Please then to satisfie me concerning these three Queries:

• 1. By what authoritie does the Civil Magistrate punish a Heretick?
• 2. What is it he punishes him for?
• 3. And Thirdly, Vpon what ••••••all and inditement?

If the few perticular warrants upon special occasion for punishing some certain Idolaters expressy poynted it in the old Testament, obli∣ged all Magistrates then▪ and ever since to do the like; you must con∣demne the greatest part of Godly▪ Magistrates for omitting it▪ and if you wil ha•••• extraordinary 〈◊〉〈◊〉 to ••••gage th•••• there unto upon all ordinary 〈◊〉〈◊〉 you must in••er that 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the People of the land

who have entered into the la••e solemne League and Covenant are bound with one accord to assault & cut the throats of al the Papists they should meet withall, without any farther proces or impeachment, just as the Is∣raelites served Mattan, B••als priest after that jehoida had made a covenant between the Lord, the King, and the people 2. King 11. 17. 18. Secondly, For what cause does the Civil Magistrate punish this Church Offender? were it for Civil delinquency, then is he no longer a meer heretick a bare Church offender; the Church would have no jurisdiction to punish him for such Civil delinquency: But that you may see it was for spiritual, for Church offences for which he is unjustly banished, imprisoned or put to dea••h; it wil appear upon the third Query or Inquiry, that the Civil Ma∣gist••ate proceeds against him after an implicit manner, by passing sen∣tence by putting him to death upon the Church triall and inditement only; or else arraignes him the second time for the selfe same offence, (a double injurie and injustice) which, besides, being spiritual, the Ci∣vil Magistrate has no cognizance, is no competent Judge thereof, nor can take upon himselfe any such authority without confounding the Ecclesiasticall Judicature with the Civil.

But I must trouble your patience a little longer with an other touch upon this string, this whipcord which you graunt the Magistrate to scourge your Brethren withal, in confidence your selves for this bene∣volence shall scape scotfree, and passe for white boyes, whatever offen∣ces you commit; this no doubt wil expiate them all, and make attone∣ment for them though they be never so many:

You say the Civil Magistrate may compel [men of different opinions] to subscribe or to be gon; nay, you say the Civil Magistrate may command and compel a corrupted Church and negligent Church Officers into a Reformation; and that even when they are Reformed, hee may com∣mand and compel them by his Civil power, to give satisfaction, and reverse such Ecclesiasticall censures and judgements, as the Civil Ma∣gistrate shall apprehend to bee oppressing unto any man, or contrary to the Civil lawes: Tell me, is this power which you present the Ci∣vil Magistrate withall in spirituall matters, a lesser, lesse spiritual or efficacious power, than what you reserve as peculiar to the Church? If it bee lesse, the Civil Magistrate surely is much beholding to you that you are so bountifull to him of such scrapps; that you will set him ••

work (as the Egyptian Task-master did the Israelites Exo. 5. 18.) with such leavings and shredds of discipline, and yet expect hee should doe that for you, which all your broad sides and batteries of Decrees, Ordnance, and Canons of Excommunication &c. could not effect; And why I pray may not the Church her selfe make use of small shot as well as greater? But if you meane really side publica, and this po∣wer which you attribute to the Civil Magistrate concerning Spiritual Offenders and offences, be greater, more Spiritual and efficacious to win and gain men unto true piety and Godlinesse by fining, banishing, imprisonment or death; Can you not give him in the vantage? Can you not let him have the lesser of Excommunication and other Cere∣monious (in comparison of Civil Coercive) Censures?

Briefly then; if this power which you give the Civil Magistrate a∣bout the Church, bee a toy or trifle, bate it him, and let not so ma∣ny thousand Ind••pendents your Brethren be longer scandalized there∣at; But if you insist still to make it of so great concernment and neces∣sity, teaching the people that the Civil Magistrate must likewise bee a terrour to spiritual offenders; assure your selfe that both Magistrate and People, will likely ere long see the injustice and absurdity, of ha∣ving two Magistrates to punish one offender for one fault, which also may disagree, may possibly contradict each other in their sentences, re∣solving through the corrupted principles which you instil, that the Civil Magistrate has power and understanding sufficient to discipline and govern both Church and State.

But perhaps you'l say there is an Act of Parliament, a Civil law de∣claring heresie, or any different, from the State opinions, such as for the present are in fashion to be censurable by the Civil power: I answer not without all due respect unto the lawes and such as made them, that if there be any distinction betwixt a Church State and a Civil State, which all Christians ••itherto acknowledged, the enacting Civil lawes to punish spiritual offences, is not only a Soloecisme an im∣proprietie in State, but an incroaching on the Churches power, a pro∣phaning of the Keyes, and injurious to the offender, who by this meanes is punished both beyond the degree and nature of his offence.

But if you remember, as I put you in mind of before; pag. 1••••, you say, Whatsoever the Ecclesiastical Senate or Presbyterie is bound not to tole∣rate,

but must suppresse in the Church; that the Civil Magistrate is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the State: But if this bee true, must not the Civil Magistrate joyne with the Ecclesiastial in judging of He∣resie, Schisme and all Church offences? Or if, forsooth, your mean∣ing be the Presbyterial Officials shall have the preheminence and passe their verdict first; Are not the Civil Powers obliged to passe the like implicitly, to do the same good justice whether it bee right or wrong, or else set at large, to give a different judgment, and so, ips•• fact••, condemne your doctrin as arrogant and Heretical? Oh that you would but ba••e us these impertinencies, these inconsistencies▪ how many fair sheetes of paper would it have saved from fowling? But whereas you enthraule the Magistrate hereunto as Nursing-Fathers and Mo∣thers; you may as well engage your Nurse to knock all children on the head, because they speake not so readily or plainly as your owne, though sublimated, extracted from Mercuries braine: And yet this rule of yours needs not bee so stout to admit of no exceptions no qualificati∣ons; since the off-spring of Fornication or adultrie are forward Imps, and forwardnes a character of such Imps, though otherwise undisco∣vered to the world:

But for the text in Esa. 4••. 23. which propheside that the King•• of the Gentiles should become Nursing Fathers and their Queens Nursing Mothers unto the Church: mean you by their fighting for it? By their cruel persecuting or tormenting Christians? 'Tis clearly by submitting themselves unto the Churches spiritual yoake, by whose example their subjects might bee encouraged to do the like, of their owne free accord and Godly disposition, without the least cullour of compulsion, in that the Blessed spirit in the end of the same verse, brings for a reason of these Kings and Queens administring to the Church, That they shall not be ashamed that waite for him? Now there would want a just capacity in them of being ashamed, for waiting on the Church, or on Christ the Head thereof, if they were constrayned to wait.

Pag. 60. You say an Ecclesiastical judicatore is nothing else but a cer∣tain n••mber of men endowed with an authoritive power according to Gods word to judge of Church ••usinesses according to Gods glorie, and the weak of the Church; or in a word, the representative Church of one Parish, ••l••sse Province, Nation or of all the world: But where meet you with any such

Chimera of an Ecclesiastical Indicatorie in all the word of God? Where find you such an authoritive power as is by you insinuated? Where find you that it would be either for Gods glorie, or the Churches weale it should be so? and last of all, Where find you that a certain nomber of Ecclesiasticall men, may be the Representative Church of the whole world? Though you rack and torture the 15^th. and all other Acts of the Apostles by all the Ecclesiasticall judicatories and Authoritative Powers which you can muster up, you will never bee able to get so much as a distinguishable Eccho from them to this purpose: However, please your owne imagination; erect as many Consistorial Babels as you will; hammer out what Decrees your selves think good; and if you can, with a good conscience, tell us, wee may do well if wee observe them: But goe no farther; since the Church of Jerusalem (which you will, I beleeve, acknowledge your only President for Assemblies) did noe more; and yet there were present there, Apostles inspired men; whereas if there be any thing else in the very best of your Eccle∣siasticall Judicatories, as you call them, besides such infirmities a•• are common to you, with any other nomber of your brethren, 'tis more than all the world beleeves; and therefore blame them not if they cannot run ••udwink'd with you into Limbo, Purgatorie or Hell, since the way to heaven is too straight for men of implicit faith, blind zeale, orignorant devotion (which are the best fruites your Presbyte∣rian Disciplin can produce) to light upon: And besides the manifold weighty exceptions which have been made already, and may yet bee farther multiplide, to prove that to bee no Synod or Ecclesiastical Ju∣dicatorie in Act. 15. Tell mee, good Sir, whether if they will make that a President; the Assembly which sits now at Westminster may not according to the same grounds send their Synodal Decrees into Germa∣ny, France, Spaine, Italie and other pretended Christian Countries, as well as they of Jerusalem did into Syrio, Cilicia, who had noe R••pre∣sentatives in Jerusalem, that we heare of, at the making of those De∣crees? and by consequence, any certain nomber of men who have but confidence ••nough, and the Civil sword to fight for them, (else they will bee thought to say and do a•• little to the purpose as their neigh∣bours) may take upon them to be an Ecclesiastical Judicature, the Re∣presentative Church, and so condemne the whole world into spiritu∣all

captivity, because their phansies tell them it is for Gods glory and the Churches weale it should bee so? But suppose that Antioch, Syria and Cilicia were willing to receive and yeeld obedience unto the De∣crees which were made by the Church of Jerusalem where there were present inspired Apostles; must this needs oblige all other Churches now to do the same towards such as have no more infallibility than their brethren? especially whether they will or no? were not this to hang rhe Christian libertie of the whole Church Militant upon the ar∣bitrary proceedings of some few perticular congregations only? Good Sir consider of it.

To the exceptions which are justly alledged against the perempto∣rinesse of some Ecclesiastical Synods and Assemblies which think they may Parallel their own decisious with those of the Apostolical Church of Jerusalem Act. 15. which were infallibly certaine of the Holy Ghosts Assistance, or else might possibly have erred, and consequently seduced all Christians unto the end of the world, which would bee blasphemy of the greatest magnitude to imagine; You aske wherefore may not every perticular Minister say it seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and me? To which I answer, that your Ministers and you too, may bee rash in saying so, as you are in other matters: Who can hin∣der you? But must all the world bee mad or sottish to beleeve you? because you are rash to say you know not what? You say, that what seemeth good to the Holy Ghost, should likewise seeme good to all Ministers; I say so too; but not contrariwise? which rests on you to prove, or not require obedience as though the Holy Ghost were in your bosom, were at your beck: It is true, that whatsoever the Church does rightly bind or loose on earth, is infallibly confirmed in heaven; but that upon this presumption, every A S. a Synod or Assembly may take upon them to bind and loose, such as are not of their Congre∣gation prescribing both Disciplin and Doctrin unto their brethren, ac∣cording to their owne imaginations; much lesse expect that others should take their Decisions to be Oracles, and themselves little God Almighties; Is a character of such high floane conceitednes and pre∣sumption, as since the creation was never equalized by any, except the son of the morning, Lucifer himself Es. 14. 12. 13. Surely if God should say of these m••n (as he did ironically of Adam) behold they are becom

like us; they can make new Scriptures, new religions; they are like enough to take him at his word, still soothing themselves in their fond attempts, until with Adam they were excluded Paradise:

You think you may say it seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and you; and what if I should graunt you may possibly in some sence▪ say so unto your own heart with a good conscience? Must your conscience there∣fore become a rule, a yoake to other mens? And if the Blessed spirit should at any time be are witnes unto your spirit, or unto the spirit of a whole Parliament and Synod, what were this to the spirits of other men? Must not they waite with patience untill the Blessed Spirit bee pleased to visit their Spirits likewise, before they can joyne with yours or the Assemblies Spirit? But if the Synods Determination of this or that controversie should seeme good unto the Holy Ghost, as the Churches Decrees of Ierusalem did; Must they therefore bee imposed upon the Country, the whole world? Is not this to equalize your Sy∣nodal Canons with those Decrees of the Apostolical Church of Ierusa∣lem, and so make Scripture of yours as well as theirs? Is not this to adde to Scripture? Nay, to alter it? For adding to it is ipso facto al∣tering, and it is said thou shalt not adde thereto? Deut. 4. 6. Revel. 22. 18.

Can you or any Synod say they are, or will be at any time, at their pleasure infallibly assisted by the Holy Ghost? If not; Why doe you take so much upon you? But you will say, you fast and pray; you mean and hope well; May not a companie of Tinckers and Coblers say the like? But you are more wise, learned, noble, and therefore think it fitting that others should yeeld to your determinations; rather than you to such as are rustick, illiterate, and obscure; This in curtesie, may bee granted you, in part, that is, the not submitting your consci∣ences to Independents; they seeke nothing lesse, beeing still willing to expect and pray for you with all long suffering and patience: What postumate dispensation then since▪ the Apostles leaving us, have you, not to doe the like? They are the Presbyterian Doctors whose Asses must passe for Trumpeters, and whose Geese are Swans; whose war a•• must be thought better, and payde for deerer than any of their neigh∣bours; whatever they say must be accounted Seraphical; and Mecha∣nicks, all Lay-men wave their owne reason and religion whilst they worship their's:

'Tis true, that Jesus does tacitly commend Nathaniel for beleeving in him, because he heard him only say, that Hee saw him under the Fig∣tree; yet withall he tels him that hee should see greater things than those Ioh. 1. 50. that is, hee should see that, which would be a full and just ground of a higher degree and measure of faith in Christ: in like manner, Paul when he falls upon intergatories with the Iewes his bre∣thren after the flesh saying, How shall we escape if we neglect so great salva∣tion? He tells them withall that it was such a salvation as first began to be preached by the Lord himselfe, and afterwards was confirmed unto us by them that heard the Lord, God bearing witnes thereunto both with signes and wonders and with diverse miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost Hebr. 2. 2. 3. 4. From whence it followes, that wee may now much lesse beleeve new Gospels, new doctrins which are not evident in Scripture within the reach of our own capacities, and apprehensions; or upon slender grounds, such as may possibly deceave us; or upon any other lesse grounds than what are aboundantly able to satisfie both the strongest and weakest reasons and understandings of those from whom faith is re∣quired.

It is said in Pauls Epistles to the Ephesians that Christ gave some to be Apostles, some Prophets, Evangelists, Pastours and Teachers for the perfecting the Saints, for the worke of the Ministerie, for the edifynig of the body of Christ, till we all come in the unity of the faith; some whereof we find to have been more immediatly and largely gifted than the rest, as Apostles Prophets and Evangelists, to whom in their rare indowm••nts and power of miracles, wee do not know any to have suc∣ceeded since the Apostles dayes: But whether may wee not take the want of them as a grievous curse upon all Christians with the rest of the world ever since? Whether can the Gospel bee truly and throughly propagated without such infallible officers? How can wee be assured that the Gospel has beene inviolably conserved and preached unto •••• without such glorious witnesses to bare testimony thereto by signes and wonders! How can the Jewes bee certaine that they have the law and Proph••ts conveyde unto them without beeing adulterated considering their severall captivities and persecutions? Who knowes whether Ezra his memory might not faile him, in restoring unto them the Scriptures, as is reported of him, after they were said to be almost all consumed by

fire, when the Chaldea••s tooke Ierusalem? Sixtus Senensis Bibl: Sanct. l. 1. Ezra. pray, must their own or other mens reason be the handmaid to lead them through these Laberinthes.

Wee see in Genesis 27. that when Isaack had an intension to blesse Esauh; Jacob by his mother Reb••ckah's counsell, having covered his hands and neck with kidskins, subtilly counterfetted himselfe to bee Esauh, and so beguiled him of his blessing▪ in the carriage whereof we see that Isaack conceived it was Iacob's voice, but that the hands were the hands of Esauh; whereof though he doubted, yet he suffered him∣selfe to beswaid that way, in regard that Iacob affirmed himselfe to bee Esauh; verse 24. even so is it with multitudes of Christians in many poynts of controversie, whilst the Scriptures furnish us with testimo∣nies which in some respect seeme to make for both sides; however, in regard we cannot beleeve them both, I conceave a man may safely be∣take himself to that wherein he apprehends more evidence of the two; and though it prove the wrong, yet God may accept of his indeavours and good intension, who did not blame Isaack for thus blessing Jacob through an errour, who yet since he had suspition of him by his voice, might have satisfyde himselfe concerning him, had he but felt the o∣ther parts of his body which were not counterfetted.

Paul likewise although he was a great blasphemer and Persecuter 1. Tim. 1. 13. Act. 26. 9. 10. 11. Yet he said of himselfe that hee had lived in all good conscience before God untill that day Act. 23. 1. It is a ve∣ry smale thing that I should bee judged of mans judgement; I judge not my selfe, for I know nothing by my selfe 1. Cor. 4. 3. 4. and Rom. 14. 6. It is said Hee that regardeth a day regardeth it to the Lord, and hee that regardeth not the day unto the Lord, he doth not regard it: Hee that eateth, eateth to the Lord for he giveth God thanks, and hee that eateth not, to the Lord he eat∣eth not and giveth God thanks: From all which way he gathered, that a good meaning and intention is greatly excusable before God, though it were in an erroneous way of fearing him: For all which respects the Presbyterians do not only show themselves injurious in distip ••••∣ing, and ruling over their brethren, over whom they have no power, being Freemen, Free-Christians equall to themselves; but sacriled∣gious to Gods bountifulnesse and long suffering, who like the Scribes Pharises Hypocrites lay heavie burthens upon others, but they them∣selves

will not put a finger to: Luk. 11. 46. who streighten, if not quite dam up the way to heaven, not suffering others to enter, nor yet goe in themselves. Math. 23. 13. Good now let us fast or feast; let us observe Holy-dayes or not; and so for other matters, according as Gods spirit shall guide us thereunto, and not the Spirit of a Presby∣terie, unlesse wee could see more in it than in our own.

Pag. 105. You say The supreame [Church] Iudicatorie may feare that if they judge any thing amisse, their judgments will not be approved, and put in Execution with perticular Churches; and in all human probability they are like to be crossed: Pray demur a little, and consider whether in these few lines you have not utterly demolished that mighty (but imaginary) Ba∣bel of unlimmited authoritative Jurisdiction which you had raised unto your Classical Presbyteries or Superlative Ecclesiastical Assemblies? Doe you not here of your own accord acknowledge that in some cases, i. e. If they judge any thing amisse, the Supreme Church Judioature it selfe may feare ••er judgements will not be approved and put in execution (so much as) in perticular congregations? yea, and that in all humane probabi∣lity they are like to be crossed? Since then you graunt your Synods and highest Church Assemblies may judge amisse; and that in such cases perticular Churches may refuse to yeeld obedience; will it not follow by undenyable consequence that such perticular Churches must have Power to examin and even judge the judgements of such Assemblies according to their owne reasons and understandings? And that what∣soever shall appeare to bee decreed or ordered amisse by such Ecclesia∣stical Assemblies, according to the light of their own reason and under∣standing which God has given them, and not to be submitted unto with a good conscience, ought and must not be put in execution by perticu∣lar congregations? This is your owne doctrin sometimes though una∣wares; For even on the top of the next page, 109. where you bring M. S. enquiring what should be done in case an Oecumenical or Gene∣ral Counsel erre; you say you wil returne him answer, when hee tells you what must bee done in case the Parliament should erre, or if the great Sanedrin of the Old Testament or the Councel of Jerusalem had erred; and yet you might remember to have objected thrice in this fri∣volous discourse of yours upon the like occasion, that Quaestio non sol∣vit qu••stionem: But do you not perceive a little spirit of perversenes

in your selfe, that you can thus prevaricate? thus play at fast and loose? Did you not just now confesse (oh the power of truth! That if the very supreme Church Judicature should judge amisse shee may feare her judgement will not be approved and put in execution by perticular congregati∣ons? And doe you so soone boggle at the same Querie afterwards? Will not this smal pittance of ingenuity reconcile you (how fierce so∣ever) unto the Independents? Either then recant this and such other passages; or stand to them, and burn that confused volumne of So∣phistical distinctions and meere contradictions.

Pag. 170. 171. You say the example of the Protestants in France suing for a toleration of their Religion serves nothing towards the obtaining the like for Independents in England: But why pray so Magisteriall and per∣emptory? Have not the Independents fought for the Parliament a∣gainst the Cavaleers? Did they not refuse to joyn with the Cavaliers in fighting against the Scots? Your Presbyterian Disciplin had scarce been setled in Scotland by Civil and Ecclesiastical authority, which you so much boast of in page 160. if Independents had not done that for you which you were not able to do for your selves? And doe you thus re∣quire them? Was there not the same reason for the Scots some few yeares since to have submitted themselves unto the English service-booke, then adored by such an English uniformity, and sent, yea attempted to bee imposed upon them by the Ecclesiastical authority of England; as that the English and Irish, two numerous and renowned Nations, must now be subjugated by fire and sword unto a Scotch Directory? Surely if there be a God in Heaven, or any conscientiousnesse on earth, it will never bee, or never long endure; nescis quid serus vesper trabat: you say the Protestants of France were compelled to idolatry and to bee actors in the damnation of their owne soules against the light of their consciences: And what if it be said the Presbyterians professe and practise the same against the Independents, against all that differ from them barely in opinion? All the principles which concerne coercive Discipline in, about, or for the Church are common both to Papists and Presbyterians? Insted of arguments and reason, Will you not say 'tis false, foolish, fond, idle, ig∣norant, childish, currish, contradictorie, impertinent, non sence, nothing but wind and words of Goodwin? page 169. &c. How long will this Great Goliah of the Presbyterians thus boast himselfe? How long will the

braying of this fowle mouth'd AS. disquiet the people of God? Pack up your pedl••rs budget of such absurd distinctions abominable contra∣dictions, unsufferable tautalogies, (to say no worse) and be gon, even any where, that we may be quit of you; speake or write to instruction or edifying hereafter, or else hold your peace for shame of God and men: But do you not know that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah, than for many people amongst whom Christ wrought most of his miracles? Know you not that many who live and dye Papists because through ignorance, (as Paul whilst he persecuted the Saints 1. Tim. 1. 13. Whom God therefore had mercie on) shall rise up in judgement against all Protestants which know Gods will and do it not? Doe you not take it to be mad doctrin of Pauls when he presupposes there may bee a case when the best Christians (I say not Presbyterians) may, nay, ought never more eat flesh drinke wine, nor anything where at a brother stum∣bleth, is offended or made weake? And yet if you beleeve Rom. 14. 21. 1. Cor, 8. 13. you may finde it Evangelical, a little othergates, than such stuffe as you baptize with Orthodox, and then think it pleaseth the Holy Ghost, (because such men, such dust and ashes as your selfe know no better,) that all the world, will they, nill they, must fall down and worship it:

If Independents say, they have no faith in communicating with your mixt multitude, and joyning in an English Directory, alias a Scotch Common-prayer-booke; and you notwithstanding by imprisoning or dis∣countenancing compel them to it; doe you not make them commit I∣dolatrie? Are they not damned because they doubt thereof? Rom. 14. 23. Can the Priests in Frame, the Divels in Hell, or Presbyterians any where, do worse by Protestants? But you promise largely; you say the Presbyterians will not compel the Independents to act against their consciences: only you will not suffer them to seduce other mens consciences: What an Agrippa-like halfe Christian paradox is this? Doth the truth constraine you to acknowledge that compelling Inde∣pendents to joyn with you in your mixt communions and stinted wor∣ship against their consciences, would amount unto Idolatrie? and may they not instruct their Famelies, friends, brethren, and all such, who gaspe after a word of knowledge, or but desire to be instructed by them how to decline Idolatrie, and worship God in sincerity and truth?

Did not Nature engrave it in the hearts of al men, that it is better to o∣bey God than man? Did not the Apostles for our clearer understand∣ing resolve it when 'twas made a question? Act 4. 19. Are not all such condemned for unproffitable servants who put a candle under a bushel? For lapping up their tallent in a napkin? For not strengthning others after they themselves are converted? And though you so often upbraid this as a licentious course and way, to let in all Heresie and impiety; have patience if I tell you the Papists say the verie same for excluding Protestantisme out of their Dominions; and neither you as profownd an AS. as you take your selfe to be, nor all the Presbyterians in the world, can say one tittle more than Papists doe in this behalfe: now, wherein your Divinity, your Disciplin, your Righteousnes exceeds not that of Papists; take it not so hainously, that Independents who have not so learned Christ, may not, dare not joyne with you: yet if upon a second consideration hereof you shall still remain head-strong, bani∣shing all farther truth, left some Heresies should creepe in therewith; good now, do but discover to us a possibility how after the Presbyte∣rian rule, (which, according to AS. sayes the Civil Magistrate has power not to admit the true Church, or to turne it out, though it had beene admitted and established by low.) The Roman Church can ever be reformed, or the Iewes converted to the Gospel:

Concerning the Churches of New-England, you say their Indepen∣dency is worse than Heresie; you strengthen your selfe in denying them a toleration in Old-England, because they will not graunt you one in New-England, and yet you bid them begon thither and live in peace: but tell me a little; how can they be secure in New-England from the omnipotency of the Presbyterian Disciplin which is as covetuous and ambitious as Rome it selfe which claim's no lesse than all the World? ought you not to endeavour their conversion equal to your brethrens of Old-England, and that as well unto your Disciplin as to your doctrin? Are their soules not worth saving? Or their Country not worth living in? the soile is thought no whit inferiour, if not better then the best in Old-England; though there be not so good plundering for money and rich moveables: But why should not the soules of your New-English Brethren bee as deare unto you, as those of Old-England? Or though your Brethren of New-England should know the way to heaven of

themselves; How can you with a quiet mind endure they should get thither without your Passe, your Mittimus, your Peter-pence? Or why may not the Old-English be thought as charitably on, or find the like favour from your over dilligent Presbyerie? But put the case you did really desire the New-English their conversion? you approve of them in suffering no opinions to be published but their owne? If this Disci∣plin be strictly observed; How can they possibly attaine to better light and knowledge? What course will you take for their informing, for convincing them of this worse than Heretical tenet as you call it, if to their's, and your Church pollicy, they should lykewise attaine as sharp a Civil sword as yours? Or put case that even your own most excel∣lent Doctorship were not so sound or orthodox as self conceited, which many have strong presumptions for, who are thought better able to judge thereof than AS. himselfe, will you put your selfe in an impossi∣bilitie of ever being reformed except tumultuously or illegally, both waies compulsively? Was ever any AS. so dull, so stupid, so voide both of Civil and Christian policie? But what shall I say unto you, since according to your Theologie, nothing is so likely to prevaile with you as cudgelling?

Page 172. You say that refusing to tolerate the Independents will helpe to confirme the Churches and people in the truth of Presbyterian Diciplin and Doctrin; that many men are led by authority, and take many things upon the trust of great men &c. Phy AS! Are you not asham'd thus to un∣cover the nakednesse of your Churches? To tell us and them that the Presbyterian world takes up a religion and government upon trust? And if the Venerable and learned Assemblie, as you stile them, should not graunt a toleration of any thing but Poprie or Turcisme, would not your good people whom you speake of, be as easily confirmed of the truth thereof? Surely they will, unlesse they bee wiser than their An∣chesters, which will not be beleeved.

Page 179. You ask What power hath either King or Parliament to in∣trude and force upon the Kingdome new religions or a toleration of all Sects? And say the Parliament assumes no such power to it selfe: If this bee true; How can it settle (not to say intrude as AS. does improperly and un∣mannerly) the Scotch Presbyterian disciplin in England, more than the Independency of New-English Churches? For since the Churches of

Scotland and New England for Doctrin agree in fundamentals, differ onely in Disciplin, and as AS. aleadges, doe persecute all opinions but their own; How come the New-English and Scots not to be both Sects alike, since AS. calls the Apologists a Sect? But hee saies the Presby∣terian Government is already established in England in the Dutch, French, Italian and Spanish Churches page 160. And I answer that hee may as well say the Popish government was setled in England, because permitted to be made use of in in the Queens Chappells and so many Ambassadours houses, little otherwise than was the Presbyterian: But if the Presbyterian government bee already established, what needs all this imprecating, this conjuring of AS. yet for a farther setling of it? But if the Parliament may not, as AS. saies, intrude and force upon the Kingdome new religions; and since the Civil Magistrate as you likewise say page 166. if he follow Gods word cannot graunt a to∣leration without consent of the Church if he judge it bee not corrupted: Why doe you not then betake your selfe to the Synod, forbearing to be far∣ther troublesome unto the Civil Magistrate, untill it bee at leisure to talke with you for stigmatizing of it worse than mad, corrupted by bribery, or some other way, page 166. unlesse it descend unto such notions only as AS. arrives to:

And why, I pray, must the Parliament needs tolerate all AS.' ses to think they are worse than madde, corrupted with money or some other way, if they should tolerate a new Sect, you mean Independents, i. e. any that but differ from one another in opinion, and such are all, as will not upon any occasion say, black is white, and white is black, or seeme to beleeve any thing else implicitely? I know your meaning, your grand and common (more than understood) objection; that there is but one true religion, but one faith, one way to Heaven; and why should wee then suffer men and women to bee of so many different waies faith's and religions? For answer hereunto I can bee conten∣ted to graunt that there is but one true religion, one true faith and way to Heaven; But who can tell mee the precise and just precincts there∣of? What mean they by one true religion, one way, one faith? The Papists, Luthrans, Calvinists, all Episcopal and Presbyterian disciplind men generally are of this opinion; each of them, whole Nations and People, damn for the most part hand over head, all other professions

but his own; and even amongst these who by compulsion they will bee sure to make as good Christians as themselves, to any mans thinking but their own, how few of them notwithstanding will they allow to get in∣to Heaven with them? Would it not be wonder if this Circumfe∣rence, this little continent of earth, should satisfie the vast desires of such, who seeme to think, that the Heavens so infinitely more capaci∣ous, were only made for them and some few of their familiars? O the malecontednesse of such Spirits! To say nothing of Mahumetans nor any sort of Pagans, no nor Jewes who yet were the beloved Nation of the Lord, who promised to make all their enemies his owne; To say nothing neither of Papists, nor millions of Christians, especially in the East which never heard more of Poprie, than England had of Pres∣byterie five yeares agoe; (which you may say was but a little, though since too much) would it not be a harsh sentence for men of the Classi∣call Presbyterian-way to passe, which must send hedlong to Hell all Lutherans, Calvanists, Independents with sundry other differing Prote∣stants? Perhaps you will say though they live Lutherans or Indepen∣dents, they may die Converts, or well-willers to the Presbyterian Dis∣ciplin and Doctrin: I answer, that this is such a May-bee, that if it come not whilst they live, I'le passe my word 'twill never happen af∣terward: You may as well say or think they may die Jewes or Papists, were you not apt to flatter your selfe, or glad to say any thing, rather than by plaine argument be made appeare as if you thought, God had first made the joyes of Heaven, and in the fulnesse of time sent his Son to repurchase them, for your fond opinions onely to vapour in; But in case you doe not thus reprobate all Lutherans, Independents and such as differ from you in opinion, allowing them a possibilitie, even whilst they live and die Lutherans or Independents, to find the way to Heaven; why will you then not let them goe their own way? What if it should seeme to you the farthest way about? May it not prove the neerest home, according to the proverb? I am certain it must be the surest way to them that know and apprehend no other: If then you cannot possi∣bly decipher or chaulke out unto me exactly this only true religion and way to Heaven, without imminent danger of streightning or enlarging it, do not take upon you to make enclosure of it, or compell others to leaue their owne way, unlesse you could bee infallibly assured, that

were a better which you put them in, or were able to make them rera∣ration, if it prove a worse.

There are two great controversies which have set both State and Church on fire, about which so many Pamphlets have beene scribled, and not a few continued musing untill their heads grew addle, which yet, in my slender judgement, may be fully Stated in a verie few lines only: That in the Civil State, is betwixt Magistrate and Subject; On the one side it is alledged, that if everie soule, the whole bodie of a people or Nation must be subject unto the Higher Powers in all ca∣ses, whether they govern justly or tyrannically, then would it rest in the Magistrates breast and power to ruin and destroy the whole Nation at his pleasure: On the otherside, if the people may in some case deny subjection, it must bee in such as they apprehend themselves in immi∣nent danger of destruction; and then it will follow, that so often as they apprehend this imminent destruction, this necessitie; soe often they may deny subjection, which would render the Higher Powers obnoxious unto the bare pretentions of the people, if they did but withall alledge their feares were reall:

Both these I confesse are great stumbling blocks, yet the latter, as I conceive, is to be adhered unto; because it is a greater evil, to expose a whole Nation to destruction, than a Magistrate only: And lest it should be thought this tenet does expose the Magistrate unto the inconstancie and violence of the People; Let such remember that Magistrates are Gods Vice-gerents and as many times it happens that some scape bet∣ter, for the present, For offending God than man but pay for it with a witnes afterwards; soe if a People shall injuriously imploy that natu∣rall power and might, which God has given them only for their de∣fence, against the Magistrates just commands and priviledges; God becomes so much more engag'd to vindicate them, by how much being few in nomber, in comparison of the People, they want an arme of flesh to helpe themselves.

As for the Church controvesie, it may bee said in behalfe of Inde∣pendents, that unlesse differing and erroneous opinions bee tolerated; the most orthodox and rectified are equally Subject to bee persecuted: On the other side, Presbyterians say, that the permitting differing o∣pinions in a State, is to open a flood-gate to all manner of Heresies and

Schysmes: What if wee did suppose these to bee the two Great Rocks of offence, which in some sense were no otherwise than Scylla and Charibdis; one of which you could not avoide without adhering un∣to the other? Does it not remaine then, that wee should consider which of them is accompained with the greatest inconveniences? The latter presupposes a possibilitie of entrance unto all Heresies; the for∣mer concludes a certainty of with-holding a great measure of Truth, and even a possibility of keeping out the whole Truth: Now, this truth is like God himself; even verie God himselfe, invallewable; we may not hazard the least attom, the smalest proportion thereof, for al other possi∣bilities or impossibilities whatsoever: What? Shall we put our selves into such a condition, that if we be in an errour it shall be impossible for us to get out of it againe, unlesse the whole Civil State, the men of war, the world doe see it as clearely as our selves? That if as yet wee have but some degrees of truth and knowledge, it shall be impossible for us to attain to greater? That though we were in possession of the true Religion, wee should bee liable to have it taken from us by everie sharper Civil sword than our owne? This is your Doctrin page 13. where you say the Civil Mgistrate though Christian has power to ad∣mit Christian Religion; or when admitted to exile it afterwards; but God keepe such Presbyterian Principles from farther taking root in England.

But if King and Parliament may not force a new religion or Sect, suppose Presbyterian, upon the Kingdome; much lesse can the Synod which neither has, nor yet pretends, as is alleadged, to use the mate∣riall sword? And if for matters of religion, all power originally is in Christ, as you sometimes acknowledge page 179. How can King, Parliament, or Synod wrest it from him? Nay, what thinke you? Is it not secondarily in the people, as well as Civil power which you af∣firme in the same page? And so doubtlesse is spiritual power; unlesse you will make God to have provided mankind better of a safegard, or libertie to defend their bodies, than their soules: If then the spirituall power be so inherently in the people next under Christ, as that they cannot so well renounce and part from it in many respects, by what they may of Civil; how can it be thought by any one that the King Par∣liament or Synod though never so much importun'd by a thousand such

AS. ses, should goe about to settle a N••w Presbyterian Scotch Govern∣ment, with an intention to force a conformity of the whole Kingdome, three quarters whereof cannot, as yet be thought to submit unto it wil∣lingly, or for conscience sake?

Page 180. and elsewhere, you advise the Independents to quit their fat Benefices; but Presbyterian know how to quit the leane Benefices without your counsel: And where doe you find the Independents in such fat Benefices? What if you cannot find one of them in a fat Be∣nefice? Will you not say good cause why, because the Presbyterians would quickly heave them out, and get themselves ••n? If they find a∣ny fatter than an other, and bee so liquorish; If they regard neither flock nor the Great shepheard of the flock Christ Jesus, but with Esa••h or Judas prefer 30. pence or a fat Benefice before them both; let them at least carry it more cau••elo••sly, and not •••••• skipping so, from one fat Benefice or Lecture unto a fatter, that all the world cry shame of them; I need not name them, they are knowne to everie bodie but themselves.

But prithee A. S, tell mee, do'st thou not intend this as a pious plot and Master-peece of thine to accuse the Independents of fat Benefices, that they may bee provok'd to vindicate themselves by discovering who they were amongst the Presbyterian Rabbies that solicited so actively and dextrously, obtaining such an Ordnance for Tithes as all the sub∣tle invention•• of Antichristian Bishops could never get the like? Who they were that had more than a finger in helping sundrie Ministers out of their Livings partly for not paying the twentyeth part and other taxes; and so soone as Presbyterians had filld all Benefices and Lec∣tures, to move, that Ministers might then bee totally freed from all manner of ••essment••; and is it not fitting it should bee so, think you? That they should set and keepe the Kingdome on •• fire, in •• desparate bloody Civil warre, and yet bee totally exempted from contributing towards quenching, towards obtaining of a blessed peace? I know these Heathenish, Jewish, Popish notions of Tythes, Offerings, and 〈…〉〈…〉∣ons, were long since abominated▪ and abolished amongst our Scottish Brethren; And A. S. does well in not flattering the English Presbyteri∣ans therein, lest Independents should be farther scandaliz'd at him, who, it is well knowne, are not guilty of such Si••oni••; they 〈…〉〈…〉

bargaine of the Ministerie of the Gospel, as if it were an unholy thing; or themselves like so many Coblers or Shoe-makers to prostitute their labours, to them that proffer most; they compel noe man to buy of them whether they will or no, much lesse at what price they them∣selves will, what God requires to be given for nothing, Esa. 55. 1. 2; They force no man to pay for that he never had, as Presbyterians doe such as cannot with a good conscience communicate with them in their ordinances; as if a Tayl••r or Hatter should wrench your money from you though you lik'd not, would not have his wares, his service: who will, may see the Bloody Tenet, and Iohn Baptist concerning tythes more largely.

Pag. 181. You say the power of the Ministerie, or Ecclesiastical power is able and sufficient to beat down all fin spiritually: But pray tell me; can fin be sin politically, and not be fin spiritually? Now if Ecclesiasti∣call power can beat down sin spiritually as you acknowledge; Will it not follow, that fin so beaten down spiritually, ceases to bee sin at all either spiritually or politically, and consequently no neede of Civil power to punish it?

But to be briefe, as the Title promised for me; Our Saviour bids us do as we would be done to; that is, Love our Neighbours as our selves, on which commandment hangs the Law and Prophets, Math. 7. 12. and 22. 39. 40. and Paul tels us that Love is the fulfilling of the whole Law; Rom. 13 10. Nay our Saviour would not have us dare to aske forgivenesse of our heavenly Father, otherwise, than as we forgive our Brethren. Math. 6. 12. 14. 15. Now, amongst all sorts of transgres∣sours, there is no one offendeth so highly, so undoubtedly against this law of loving his neighbour as himselfe; or doing as hee would bee done to; as he that persecutes, that but disturbs his Neighbours wel∣fare, because he differs from him in opinion, for cause of conscience though erroneous; which I prove thus:

Every man hath so much of an Athist in him, by how much he e∣steemes not the enjoyment of his conscience, above all enjoyments un∣der heaven; And though we have known many turne, some with more facility, others perhaps not without some difficulty, from Popish opi∣nions unto Episcopal, and then from Episcopal to Presbyterial, according as either of them became more commodious, gainsome or fashionable;

yet, if Athisme not having totally taken possession of their hearts, they began at any time to demur or scruple, according to the remnant of conscience which might be remaining in them; it was never knowne that such were contented to have even these reliques of conscience persecuted or disquieted, howsoever absurd and Heretical they might seeme to other men; and therefore such as raise any manner of perse∣cution against their Brethren for conscience sake, which they could not be contented to have done unto themselves, unlesse they were very Athists, must necessarily be the greatest offenders against this Law of loving our Neighbours as our selves, of any in the world: And al∣though I am enforced at present to apprehend you in this gall of bitter∣nesse, yet my prayers and hopes shall be, that with the Apostle 1 Cor. 6. 10. 11. it may be only said hereafter, that such were you once; but you are now enlightned; you are washed; you are sanctify'de; which God graunt in his good time and pleasure.

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